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bigguy1231
Aug 10, 2010, 7:15 AM
Hamilton is about to become just another suburb in the GTA for most Canadians. Out of all the CFL cities, Hamilton has the smallest spotlight (largely due to the fact it's considered Toronto's suburb). Anyways, I was looking forward to going to a Grey Cup in the Hammer. Instead, Hamilton will get (if it get's built) a 15000 un-occupuied stadium. It's a shame that both sides couldn't compromise.

In the end the CFL won't be the same without the Hammer, but won't miss it either. Maybe likewise, for Hamilton.

Hamilton has never been considered Toronto's suburb. It is a city distinct and seperate from Toronto something that cannot be said of Toronto's actual subsurbs. If people elsewhere want to think of Hamilton as a suburb of Toronto then they truely are ignorant of reality. Besides that most Hamiltonians don't care what outsiders think.

JayM
Aug 10, 2010, 8:14 AM
Hamilton has never been considered Toronto's suburb. It is a city distinct and seperate from Toronto something that cannot be said of Toronto's actual subsurbs. If people elsewhere want to think of Hamilton as a suburb of Toronto then they truely are ignorant of reality. Besides that most Hamiltonians don't care what outsiders think.

Ya I think Winnipeg will be next to become amalgamated into GTA. haha

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 10:08 AM
vote for East Mountain: no future fund, Ticats stay in town and break even and contribute nothing to the city, west harbour proposal gets forgotten because there's no money, no big box gets built on the east mountain, no revenue increase for the city.

vote for West Harbour: either: Ticats stay and break even or lose money and contribute nothing to the city, future fund severely depleted, eyesore removed, Canadians see that Hamilton has a beautiful waterfront, or: Ticats leave, and: stadium gets cancelled, future fund intact or: 15,000 stadium is built, future fund dented, eyesore removed, national soccer training centre established. Big box built on Mountain in all these cases and city revenues increase.

At the moment there is no third option, but lets see what tomorrow brings.

So if you support an East Mountain stadium because you love the Cats and could care less about downtown or the future fund, keep going. But if you either oppose a stadium, support Harbour remediation, think the Cats are bluffing, or think the Cats should be accountable to the people paying for their stadium, then the harbour`s the choice. This is not a very attractive dichotomy and I hope another option reveals itself tomorrow, but it`s clear that the Mountain only delivers one thing and we have to pay dearly for that.

You can be guaranteed with the Ticats leaving town, should the city decides on WH, Pan Am is out of Hamilton. They will not build a stadium without an anchor tenant, be it 25,000 seats or 15,000 seats. The city is shooting itself in the foot.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 10:48 AM
Harbour site key to $100m condo plan

August 10, 2010
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Business/article/823272

A $100-million shopping-condo project also hangs in the balance as central developments in the city's stadium drama play out this week.

Developer Darko Vranich has been quietly assembling entire blocks of downtown property for the last decade, drawing up plans for a complex of four buildings roughly along George Street designed to link Jackson Square with Hess Village.

A spokesperson for his company, Vrancor Group, said yesterday the west harbour stadium location would give the city core the momentum needed to get shovels in the ground on that project.

"Obviously, we've been paying a lot of attention to this stadium debate," said Tyler McDiarmid, chief financial officer of the company.

"Right now we're just standing by, waiting to see what happens with this development. If the stadium goes on the east Mountain, it would definitely stall this project."

The Vrancor project would be on land roughly bounded by Bay, Caroline, Main and King streets, including the site of the former federal building on Main at Caroline.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 10:49 AM
My prediction: within the next couple days this thread's status will be changing to 'Cancelled'.

AL3000
Aug 10, 2010, 11:18 AM
"Right now we're just standing by, waiting to see what happens with this development. If the stadium goes on the east Mountain, it would definitely stall this project." - Tyler McDiarmid, chief financial officer of Vrancor


Vranich has been buying up small buildings in that area and letting them sit vacant and rot for years. The building on the corner of Hess and King is a safety hazard and should have been torn down, but the city is letting Vranich get away with absentee landlord-ism. Vranich is the last person I would ever listen to or pin my hopes on. Look also what he's done to Hess Village. He has managed to turn a nice pub crawl district into a bass-booming-till-3AM night club zone, beginning with Elixir. Club Vibe just opened on the weekend, facing directly west across Queen and into the quiet, residential George Street. There you go, residents of George Street. Enjoy! I am certainly all FOR WH, but Vranich? If that's who Bratina has pinned his hopes on, I doubt anything good will come of it.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 11:25 AM
Isn't Vranich the guy who continues to operate an illegal parking lot at Bay and Main?

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 11:40 AM
To recap, the city is still pushing for a WH stadium with no anchor tenant. Without a post-Games tenant, the site does not meet Hostco qualifications and will not be built. Cycling Canada continues to push for the velodrome site to be located in a different location, maintaining the WH site is inappropriate.

The city has assembled all that WH land for naught. No stadium, no velodrome. Well done, Mr. Mayor!

Tell me again why the city refused to consider any other downtown location? Why has the mayor engineer a needles, divisive urban/suburban debate? Who benefits from that? Right, there's an election coming up...

Throw the bum out.

AL3000
Aug 10, 2010, 11:52 AM
TBH, I would have voted for Confederation, if it was still in play. I would much favour that than EM, given the choice.

I am not sure how they can claim that they are saving Confederation Park if all they have been doing is shutting down facilities in it. Over a year ago, they bulldozed the kids playground. They said it was cheaper than keeping it up to code. It took a crew of 4-8 two months to finish the work. How much did *that* cost? This year, they got rid of the camping grounds. The rampant rumour at the park has been that they've been getting rid off all of these facilities and hiking the price at the gate to actually stem the flow of visitors, devalue the park and be able to sell it more easily to a condo developer. Vranich?

So no, I don't buy this whole "We are trying to preserve Confederation". They think everyone is an idiot and not involved in their city. I live downtown, work on the mountain and visit confederation twice a week. I'm in tune with my city. I know what time it is! I'm all for WH, but if Confederation were to be on the ballot as a compromise for both sides, I'd take it in a heartbeat. Five-ten years from now, there could be condos there anyway, by the sounds of it.

mattgrande
Aug 10, 2010, 11:54 AM
To recap, the city is still pushing for a WH stadium with no anchor tenant. Without a post-Games tenant, the site does not meet Hostco qualifications and will not be built.

Even if they chose the EM stadium, Bob Young has said "fuck you" to both sites now. So why would we choose the more expensive option?

Migs
Aug 10, 2010, 11:59 AM
First of all we are not going to lose anything. The Ticats have nowhere else to go. There is no other city with a stadium that is suitable and Ottawa already has an ownership group in place for an expansion franchise. If any other city wanted a franchise they would have already approached the league and started work on a stadium.

The stadium being proposed is far from a world class facility, it will only have 20,000 seats.

The CFL might be a big thing out where you live but here it is relegated to a second class sport. Don't get me wrong, we are passionate supporters of the Ticats but if they left they would not be missed. We just have so much else to choose from sports wise that most of the population doesn't give the CFL a second thought. It's not the only game in town like it is in Regina.
Comments like this are why alot of Canadians hate southern Ontario. Second class sport?? What world are you living in? CFL games regularly have higher ratings than some NHL games, alot of NFL games, most MLB games, the majority of NBA games, etc. And as the Riders being the only team in town, well you guys have the Bulldogs, and we have the Pats. Other than that we are in exactly the same boat. You guys seriously need to get your crap together as this whole issue is making your city look like a national embarrasment. On a national scale, without the Ticats you city is on the same level as a Burlington or Missisauga.

mattgrande
Aug 10, 2010, 12:20 PM
On a national scale, without the Ticats you city is on the same level as a Burlington or Missisauga.

Or worse, Regina. :banana:

I kid, I kid.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 12:28 PM
To go for Confederation Park you'd need 2/3 majority to reverse the previous decision. Council tried twice to get 2/3 majority and failed.

Migs
Aug 10, 2010, 12:29 PM
Or worse, Regina. :banana:

I kid, I kid.
Regina has the lowest unemployment rate in the country and is the capital city of the Province with one of the best economies on earth. Also we are on the verge of announcing a brandnew $400million dollar retractible roof stadium at a location that all stakeholders agree on. I think I'll take Regina. :)

That said, I want the Ticats to remain in Hamilton as much as anyone. Id hate to see the same thing happen to your city that happened to Ottawa, good thing their city council understands how great the CFL is and how its a fabric of what it is to be Canadian.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 12:30 PM
You can watch council live starting at 9am. It'll be a LONG day, probably right up to midnight.

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/823160

mattgrande
Aug 10, 2010, 12:32 PM
Regina has the lowest unemployment in the country and is the capital city of the Province with one of the best economies on earth. Also we are on the verge of announcing a brandnew $400million dollar retractible roof stadium at a location that all stakeholders agree on.

At one point, all the stakeholders agreed on our location as well: http://www.thespec.com/article/704705

Sam Merulla's on Y108, and someone just described Confederation Park as a brownfield...

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 12:36 PM
Comments like this are why alot of Canadians hate southern Ontario. Second class sport?? What world are you living in? CFL games regularly have higher ratings than some NHL games, alot of NFL games, most MLB games, the majority of NBA games, etc. And as the Riders being the only team in town, well you guys have the Bulldogs, and we have the Pats. Other than that we are in exactly the same boat. You guys seriously need to get your crap together as this whole issue is making your city look like a national embarrasment. On a national scale, without the Ticats you city is on the same level as a Burlington or Missisauga.

The CFL gets better ratings nationally yes. But that's they key word. In southern ontario there are more options so the CFL does not do as well. The Leafs and Jays and Raps and Bills are 45 min in each direction. The CFL was also doing real bad 5-10 years ago and a lot of fans have not returned. And who cares if Canadians hate southern Ontario? Honestly? Liking a different league or sport is not the end of the world. And its not even bigguy, its the kids in Oakville, Oshawa, etc that hate the CFL.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 12:37 PM
Hamilton has never been considered Toronto's suburb. It is a city distinct and seperate from Toronto something that cannot be said of Toronto's actual subsurbs. If people elsewhere want to think of Hamilton as a suburb of Toronto then they truely are ignorant of reality. Besides that most Hamiltonians don't care what outsiders think.

I disagree. Apparantly most people here are scared shitless of Milton and Oakville.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 12:40 PM
Even if they chose the EM stadium, Bob Young has said "fuck you" to both sites now. So why would we choose the more expensive option?

Did I suggest choosing EM? Hamilton has messed this up so badly the only choice left is option D in the report. No stadium.

holymoly
Aug 10, 2010, 12:49 PM
Hamilton has never been considered Toronto's suburb.
True. Torontonians, in particular, definitely don't think of Hamilton as a Toronto suburb. In fact, I think many would be surprised to learn how close Hamilton is.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 12:52 PM
http://www.torontosun.com/sports/football/2010/08/09/14973396.html

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Hamilton+Ticats+owner+threatens+move+team/3378504/story.html

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/ticats-pull-out-of-stadium-debate/article1667147/

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=330045

The debate is being watched nation-wide. Great, the whole country can watch the city once again make a fool of itself.

AL3000
Aug 10, 2010, 12:52 PM
If CP is out, I say they

- vote WH
- stadium or not, carry on with downtown and harbour revitalization and remediation
- keep building driveway to driveway box malls on the mountain
- pass a new by-law to limit land lord absenteeism to a maximum of six months on undeveloped propertes; in essense, tell Vranich, "either build something here, or sell the property to someone who will, or we will tear this sucker down at your own expense. You have six months."
- use Future Fund money as a grant, not a loan which the citizens of Hamilton have to repay twice
- start opening the doors to other sports franchises
- carry on with life

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 1:24 PM
Braley already owned the Cats. Why doesn't he still own them is the question?

It says on Wiki he sold them two community ownership.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 1:32 PM
The Spec has written an editorial on the issue, reaffirming the paper's position in support of the West Harbour

http://thespec.com/article/823255

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 1:43 PM
You can watch council live starting at 9am. It'll be a LONG day, probably right up to midnight.

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/823160

The video is up and running.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 2:19 PM
Chris Murrary just basically said the City doesn't need the Ti Cats to build the stadium. Ian Troop has said without the Ti Cats the City will need to provide a legacy case.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 2:26 PM
The Spec has written an editorial on the issue, reaffirming the paper's position in support of the West Harbour

http://thespec.com/article/823255

Elliott is a hypocrite. If he had a real interest in improving downtown Hamilton, He'd move the Spec offices back. It was the Spec's abandonment of the downtown that started the decline of the core.

A stadium simply will not revive the downtown. Having people there 24/7 living and working is the only thing that will revive the core. Megaprojects are a waste of potential redevelopment lands.

Acajack
Aug 10, 2010, 2:26 PM
The CFL might be a big thing out where you live but here it is relegated to a second class sport. Don't get me wrong, we are passionate supporters of the Ticats but if they left they would not be missed. We just have so much else to choose from sports wise that most of the population doesn't give the CFL a second thought. It's not the only game in town like it is in Regina.

Why is it that for some people, everything always boils down to “the CFL is bush league and I am as of now on no longer paying any attention to it and will be an avid supporter of bringing the NFL to Toronto”.

Every pro sport has scandals, boondoggles, fiascos, and its share of boneheaded, selfish owners and athletes you wouldn’t ever want your daughter to date. Every single sport.

I just find it a bit ridiculous to hear the Pavlovian reaction of some:

“A backup linebacker on the Saskatchewan Roughriders was arrested for drunk driving. That’s it, the CFL is bush league and I am as of now on no longer paying any attention to it and will be an avid supporter of bringing the NFL to Toronto”.

“I bet 100 bucks on the Grey Cup and my team lost because of a single off a missed field goal. That’s it, the CFL is bush league and I am as of now on no longer paying any attention to it and will be an avid supporter of bringing the NFL to Toronto”.

“(Insert excuse number 8233576 here) That’s it, the CFL is bush league and I am as of now on no longer paying any attention to it and will be an avid supporter of bringing the NFL to Toronto”.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 2:28 PM
Chris Murrary just basically said the City doesn't need the Ti Cats to build the stadium. Ian Troop has said without the Ti Cats the City will need to provide a legacy case.

What's the legacy case? Troop needs to know by Thursday and, from what I can see, there is no substantial legacy case. Namby-pamby pie-in-the-sky musings about concerts mean nothing. We already have a concert venue downtown that is losing money, it's called Copps Colliseum.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 2:29 PM
The City can make up a legacy case really easy. Just say ahh "provides the legacy of long term use for soccer".

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 2:34 PM
YOu're gonna have to be more concrete than that to secure funds. The conditions for financing from the Feds was made quite clear by Gary Lunn on Saturday.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 2:36 PM
Apparently Whitehead is asking how the investment can be justified seeing that the city report mentions on several occasions that the WH site is not financially viable without the Ticats as a tenant. Lead story on CHML this past half-hour.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 2:39 PM
Callers are blasting Eisenberger and council on CHML right now by the way...

AL3000
Aug 10, 2010, 2:42 PM
Well, it's no secret which way CHML leans, so it's hardly an unbiased source of public opinion either.

bigguy1231
Aug 10, 2010, 2:52 PM
Why is it that for some people, everything always boils down to “the CFL is bush league and I am as of now on no longer paying any attention to it and will be an avid supporter of bringing the NFL to Toronto”.

Every pro sport has scandals, boondoggles, fiascos, and its share of boneheaded, selfish owners and athletes you wouldn’t ever want your daughter to date. Every single sport.

I just find it a bit ridiculous to hear the Pavlovian reaction of some:

“A backup linebacker on the Saskatchewan Roughriders was arrested for drunk driving. That’s it, the CFL is bush league and I am as of now on no longer paying any attention to it and will be an avid supporter of bringing the NFL to Toronto”.

“I bet 100 bucks on the Grey Cup and my team lost because of a single off a missed field goal. That’s it, the CFL is bush league and I am as of now on no longer paying any attention to it and will be an avid supporter of bringing the NFL to Toronto”.

“(Insert excuse number 8233576 here) That’s it, the CFL is bush league and I am as of now on no longer paying any attention to it and will be an avid supporter of bringing the NFL to Toronto”.

I didn't say it was bush league. I happen to enjoy the CFL. I had season tickets for years. I gave them up because of work commitments otherwise I would still have them.

I said that the CFL has been relegated to second class status. Which for the most part is true. Most people I know focus on other sports. The NHL, NFL, MLB and NBA all have a higher profile especially amongst younger people.

People outside of S. Ontario may hate us, but the reality is we represent a quarter of this country's population. More people live within an hour or two of Hamilton, than live in all of Western Canada. Like it or not, without S.Ontario the CFL would die. There would be no justification for the TV networks to bid for rights with no representation in the biggest markets.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 2:53 PM
Why is it that for some people, everything always boils down to “the CFL is bush league and I am as of now on no longer paying any attention to it and will be an avid supporter of bringing the NFL to Toronto”.

Every pro sport has scandals, boondoggles, fiascos, and its share of boneheaded, selfish owners and athletes you wouldn’t ever want your daughter to date. Every single sport.

I just find it a bit ridiculous to hear the Pavlovian reaction of some:

“A backup linebacker on the Saskatchewan Roughriders was arrested for drunk driving. That’s it, the CFL is bush league and I am as of now on no longer paying any attention to it and will be an avid supporter of bringing the NFL to Toronto”.

“I bet 100 bucks on the Grey Cup and my team lost because of a single off a missed field goal. That’s it, the CFL is bush league and I am as of now on no longer paying any attention to it and will be an avid supporter of bringing the NFL to Toronto”.

“(Insert excuse number 8233576 here) That’s it, the CFL is bush league and I am as of now on no longer paying any attention to it and will be an avid supporter of bringing the NFL to Toronto”.

That does happen. But for me the CFL has always been number 2. I liked the NFL even when it was not as popular in the mid 90's

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 2:54 PM
I didn't say it was bush league. I happen to enjoy the CFL. I had season tickets for years. I gave them up because of work commitments otherwise I would still have them.

I said that the CFL has been relegated to second class status. Which for the most part is true. Most people I know focus on other sports. The NHL, NFL, MLB and NBA all have a higher profile especially amongst younger people.

People outside of S. Ontario may hate us, but the reality is we represent a quarter of this country's population. More people live within an hour or two of Hamilton, than live in all of Western Canada.

And that is the truth. 9 million people in the golden horseshoe.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 2:56 PM
IBI says majority of Ti Cats fans prefer the West Harbour transit wise.

bigguy1231
Aug 10, 2010, 2:57 PM
Well, it's no secret which way CHML leans, so it's hardly an unbiased source of public opinion either.

Someone else mentioned that and suggested they change their call letters to CATS.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 2:59 PM
IBI suggest offering free parking to season ticket holders.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 3:03 PM
Analysis shows intersections near West Harbour experience congestion when immediate stadium parking approaches 2,000 spaces

bigguy1231
Aug 10, 2010, 3:04 PM
IBI suggest offering free parking to season ticket holders.

That would be a great idea, but you know that won't happen. The whole idea of a suburban stadium with acres of parking is to get $20-$30 per space. It's all about revenue generation.

bigguy1231
Aug 10, 2010, 3:06 PM
Analysis shows intersections near West Harbour experience congestion when immediate stadium parking approaches 2,000 spaces

Have they ever heard of having cops directing traffic for an hour before and after games. A very easy solution to the problem.

Acajack
Aug 10, 2010, 3:11 PM
I didn't say it was bush league. I happen to enjoy the CFL. I had season tickets for years. I gave them up because of work commitments otherwise I would still have them.

I said that the CFL has been relegated to second class status. Which for the most part is true. Most people I know focus on other sports. The NHL, NFL, MLB and NBA all have a higher profile especially amongst younger people.

People outside of S. Ontario may hate us, but the reality is we represent a quarter of this country's population. More people live within an hour or two of Hamilton, than live in all of Western Canada. Like it or not, without S.Ontario the CFL would die. There would be no justification for the TV networks to bid for rights with no representation in the biggest markets.

Sorry. I wasn't necessarily referring to you in particular, but to many comments to this effect I have read on here. Your post just happened to the most recent one I found that referred to the CFL as second-rate (or being perceived as second-rate).

Though I do think your assessment (of how some people view the CFL) is bang on, I also think the "NFL only" crowd in Canada grossly exaggerates just how "low" the CFL is in the sports pecking order.

flar
Aug 10, 2010, 3:12 PM
Imagine the on ramp to the Linc/RHVP after a game!

The West Harbour has multiple escape routes, most of them designed back in the days when Stelco employed more than 20,000 people. Does anyone remember all those 3-5 lane one ways in teh lower city?

Traffic is bad when 30,000 people get together, deal with it.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 3:13 PM
No Tiger-Cats representatives present

bigguy1231
Aug 10, 2010, 3:15 PM
Imagine the on ramp to the Linc/RHVP after a game!

The West Harbour has multiple escape routes, most of them designed back in the days when Stelco employed more than 20,000 people. Does anyone remember all those 3-5 lane one ways in teh lower city?

Traffic is bad when 30,000 people get together, deal with it.

Exactly. Unfortunately, people with agenda's tend to ignore the most obvious.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 3:19 PM
No Tiger-Cats representatives present

That's very telling. Bob must be in Quebec City today ;)

bigguy1231
Aug 10, 2010, 3:20 PM
That's very telling. Bob must be in Quebec City today ;)

Negotiating use of their 10,000 seat stadium with no parking.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 3:46 PM
Negotiating use of their 10,000 seat stadium with no parking.

You mean PEPS Stadium at Laval University, seating recently increased to 18,000 with room for further expansion, averages 15,000 in attendance for university football games, at Laval's campus surrounded by thousands of parking spaces and direct access to Autoroute 740 and Boulevard Laurier? Yeah, that one...

Acajack
Aug 10, 2010, 3:48 PM
Negotiating use of their 10,000 seat stadium with no parking.

Parking is not a problem at Laval U's PEPS stadium. The stadium complex has its own parking lots and also a lot of fields around it.

They actually have tailgate parties there starting early in the morning on game days.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 3:49 PM
That is all temp mark, how about tax money from QC city for permanent expansion?

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 3:49 PM
Parking is not a problem at Laval U's PEPS stadium. The stadium complex has its own parking lots and also a lot of fields around it.

They actually have tailgate parties there starting early in the morning on game days.

I thought tailgating was illiegal up here.

Acajack
Aug 10, 2010, 3:50 PM
I thought tailgating was illiegal up here.

Bienvenue au Québec.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 3:52 PM
That is all temp mark, how about tax money from QC city for permanent expansion?

Expansion costs are much lower than building new. Bob Young is already carrying that $15 million cheque for captial construction which Mayor Freddie didn't want, QC just needs to match it, and QC is much more financially sound than Hamilton. It's also the capital of the province, so public cash flows freely there. QC is also actively courting a CFL team.

Acajack
Aug 10, 2010, 3:53 PM
You mean PEPS Stadium at Laval University, seating recently increased to 18,000 with room for further expansion, averages 15,000 in attendance for university football games, at Laval's campus surrounded by thousands of parking spaces and direct access to Autoroute 740 and Boulevard Laurier? Yeah, that one...

Quebec City has some impressive stuff going for it, but I think the PEPS is still a long way from a suitable home for a CFL club. They'd have to pull out all the stops to the get the PEPS expanded in time for the 2012 CFL season. Especially when you consider nothing has been discussed publicly in Quebec City at all on this, the 2010 construction season is wrapping up real soon, etc....

I still say the Cats are staying in Hamilton for the foreseeable future.

Acajack
Aug 10, 2010, 3:55 PM
Just crunching the numbers here.

It just cost 30 million to expand Molson Stadium in Montreal by 5,000 seats.

bigguy1231
Aug 10, 2010, 3:58 PM
You mean PEPS Stadium at Laval University, seating recently increased to 18,000 with room for further expansion, averages 15,000 in attendance for university football games, at Laval's campus surrounded by thousands of parking spaces and direct access to Autoroute 740 and Boulevard Laurier? Yeah, that one...

Much like the WH. Lots of parking and easy access to the 403.

15,000 students paying $15 or $20, if that, does not equate to 15,000 to watch the CFL at $60 or $80. But good luck to them.

bigguy1231
Aug 10, 2010, 4:00 PM
Quebec City has some impressive stuff going for it, but I think the PEPS is still a long way from a suitable home for a CFL club. They'd have to pull out all the stops to the get the PEPS expanded in time for the 2012 CFL season. Especially when you consider nothing has been discussed publicly in Quebec City at all on this, the 2010 construction season is wrapping up real soon, etc....

I still say the Cats are staying in Hamilton for the foreseeable future.

Their priority right now is building an arena for a future NHL team. They are having trouble getting enough for that let alone spending money on a stadium.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 4:03 PM
Quick report from thespec.com City Hall desk:

Premier Dalton McGuinty says he’s hoping “cooler heads will prevail” as council makes its controversial decision on a stadium location today.

“I know some things have been said which don't represent the coolness we like to see brought to these discussions,” the premier said this morning at Queen’s Park. “I hope cooler heads will prevail and that people understand this is a really good news story with two levels of government bringing hundreds of millions of infrastructure to a great city.”

“I would just ask that everybody find a way come to the table and work on this together,” he added.

Council is in the midst of a discussion that will determine the location of the Pan Am stadium, a debate that has raged throughout the summer and divided the community and council alike.

The 250 seats in the City Hall chambers are packed with spectators, city staff, media, and the crowd is overflowing into seats set up outside the council chambers. City Hall security and police officers are standing guard outside of the council chambers.

So far, city staff have made several presentations on both locations, which will be followed by a long list of delegations. The vote isn’t expected until later in the afternoon.

realcity
Aug 10, 2010, 4:08 PM
Confed Park might be back on the option list. *finally*

Tailgate Parties already happen at Scott Park

Shuttles --- like they have now ---- will improve traffic to EM

7,000 parking spaces at EM is land that could eventually be developed for shops and restaurants. It doesn't mean it has to stay parking.

Police Control at WH for traffic adds to the operational costs of every game.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 4:08 PM
7700 parking spots within 1.2 km of WH.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 4:08 PM
Much like the WH. Lots of parking and easy access to the 403.



You could not be more wrong with that statement. Obviously you have never been to Laval's campus. Autoroute 740 passes right next to the stadium site. Highway 403 is 2km away from Barton and Tiffany.

But hey, don't take my word for it, Google Map PEPS (http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=PEPs+stadium+Quebec+City,+Quebec&ie=UTF8&hq=PEPs+stadium&hnear=Quebec,+Communaut%C3%A9-Urbaine-de-Qu%C3%A9bec,+Quebec&ll=46.783613,-71.279308&spn=0.0049,0.013894&t=h&z=17) yourself.

Acajack
Aug 10, 2010, 4:11 PM
Much like the WH. Lots of parking and easy access to the 403.

15,000 students paying $15 or $20, if that, does not equate to 15,000 to watch the CFL at $60 or $80. But good luck to them.

I can assure you that fan support for a CFL club in Quebec City would not be a problem.

The biggest hurdle is the stadium, one that cannot realistically be overcome in the short or medium term.

Which is why I think the Ticats aren't going to be changing cities any time soon.

Acajack
Aug 10, 2010, 4:14 PM
Their priority right now is building an arena for a future NHL team. They are having trouble getting enough for that let alone spending money on a stadium.

True. But 15 million or so for a football stadium expansion is small peanuts when compared to the cost of an NHL rink.

Now, someone savvy might be tempted to spend a (comparatively) small amount on football, just to show the country his city means business as far as pro sports are concerned, and to further impress the NHL people.

Still not likely to happen, but have you guys ever heard of Régis Labeaume?

realcity
Aug 10, 2010, 4:15 PM
7700 parking spots within 1.2 km of WH.

New Urbanism studies have shown that the most people will walk -- on average -- is 500m. When studying TOD. 1.2km is too far. Maybe not for you and me, but for elderly, children and people with mobility chanlenges def is too far.

Berklon
Aug 10, 2010, 4:17 PM
I love how Quebec City would be a great place for a CFL team... a can't miss opportunity - which just happens to become a great idea to an 8-team league at the same time Bob Young starts to suck out and cry like a little baby. Where was this idea all those years?

realcity
Aug 10, 2010, 4:18 PM
7700 parking spots within 1.2 km of WH.

Another problem is these are mostly downtown parking and if our downtown is supposed to prosper as a result of this stadium, these parking spaces will be developed.

If our downtown was thriving now, these parking spaces shouldn't exist now.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 4:18 PM
New Urbanism studies have shown that the most people will walk -- on average -- is 500m. When studying TOD. 1.2km is too far. Maybe not for you and me, but for elderly, children and people with mobility chanlenges def is too far.

That is a very good point. I guess we have too see.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 4:19 PM
I love how Quebec City would be a great place for a CFL team... a can't miss opportunity - which just happens to become a great idea to an 8-team league at the same time Bob Young starts to suck out and cry like a little baby. Where was this idea all those years?

If the TiCats continue to suck the way they have they QC will bail out too.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 4:22 PM
Another problem is these are mostly downtown parking and if our downtown is supposed to prosper as a result of this stadium, these parking spaces will be developed.

If our downtown was thriving now, these parking spaces shouldn't exist now.

This is another issue I had brought up about WH ages ago. It makes all those surface parking lots in the downtown area a permanent feature, which I thought was universally accepted as a bad thing by those who want to see the core redeveloped. Now suddenly it's a good thing to have 6,000 parking spaces occupying downtown land to accomodate 20-30 events per calendar year.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 4:24 PM
If the TiCats continue to suck the way they have they QC will bail out too.

If nothing else, the contributory value of your posts remain consistent.

Acajack
Aug 10, 2010, 4:30 PM
I love how Quebec City would be a great place for a CFL team... a can't miss opportunity - which just happens to become a great idea to an 8-team league at the same time Bob Young starts to suck out and cry like a little baby. Where was this idea all those years?

Quebec City has been thrown around as a possible CFL expansion site for the past 10 years or so. Ever since the nascent Laval Rouge et Or football program began posting impressive attendance numbers.

And Halifax has been on the drawing board for at least 25 years.

In both cases, the reasons things haven't moved any further is the lack of a suitable stadium in either city.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 4:31 PM
Ouch Mark.

If nothing else, the contributory value of your posts remain consistent.

What the hell was that for.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 4:33 PM
Friggin hell, 50 acres of parking space for the East Mountain? Holy hell

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 4:33 PM
Quebec City has been thrown around as a possible CFL expansion site for the past 10 years or so. Ever since the nascent Laval Rouge et Or football program began posting impressive attendance numbers.

And Halifax has been on the drawing board for at least 25 years.

In both cases, the reasons things haven't moved any further is the lack of a suitable stadium in either city.

Wasn't Halifax supposed to get a team in 1985?

Acajack
Aug 10, 2010, 4:34 PM
Wasn't Halifax supposed to get a team in 1985?

Yes. They were going to be called the Atlantic Schooners.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 4:38 PM
Ouch Mark.



What the hell was that for.

Sorry, I was a bit catty there. There's a lot of tangents in the conversation that are drawing away from the actual thread topic, and that's always been a bone of contention with me. Especially when people take cheap shots at the Ticats.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 4:38 PM
I was wrong. It was 1984.

The Atlantic Schooners were a conditional Canadian Football League expansion team in 1984, and had plans to play out of Halifax, Nova Scotia. The team name was derived from a name-the-team contest in which "schooner" was the winning selection. The logo was a stylized "A" in the shape of a schooner that rode on four waves, each representing the four Atlantic provinces, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland.[1] The Schooners folded before they played a single game because the owners of the team (led by J.I. Albrecht) couldn't secure the financing for a new stadium for the team. Since there was (and still is) no CFL-calibre stadium in Halifax the team had no choice but to fold.[2] Since then there have been endless rumours of a stadium being built in the area and with it, a CFL team, although none has yet been built.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Schooners

3700 Members on facebook for it.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 4:39 PM
Sorry, I was a bit catty there. There's a lot of tangents in the conversation that are drawing away from the actual thread topic, and that's always been a bone of contention with me. Especially when people take cheap shots at the Ticats.

Fair enough. You know we all want whats best for the city, including you. We just have different ideas. For the record, I would be all for Confed park.

realcity
Aug 10, 2010, 4:40 PM
Friggin hell, 50 acres of parking space for the East Mountain? Holy hell

That has the potential for development in the future.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 4:46 PM
Friggin hell, 50 acres of parking space for the East Mountain? Holy hell

That's about the same amount of acreage the WH proposal intends to 'protect' as surface parking in the downtown core to serve the WH location. To that I say 'holy hell'!

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 4:49 PM
West Harbour with no CFL, impact is 1.3 million on tax levy. Equal in what city spends to maintain Ivor Wynne. Therefore, no change.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 4:52 PM
For those who have a passing interest in the online polls, at this moment in time, goeastmountain site has 3514 supporters, ourcityourchoice site has 3416 supporters, and on terrywhitehead.com, his poll currently has 1550 votes for East Mountain and 1538 votes for West Harbour.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 4:53 PM
West Harbour with no CFL, impact is 1.3 million on tax levy. Equal in what city spends to maintain Ivor Wynne. Therefore, no change.

So we'd lock ourselves into 50 more years with a stadium that bleeds cash from the city coffers. Brilliant.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 5:16 PM
We are 50/50 everywhere then mark?

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 5:30 PM
Mayor Freddie and his merry band have done a wonderful job of making a sow's ear out of a silk purse.

flar
Aug 10, 2010, 5:37 PM
I think council will vote for WH. What happens then?

The PanAm funding is applied to the WH site for a small stadium. The animosity between the Ticats and city continues, but with the new reality that the WH stadium is the best place in Canada for a CFL club. The city ends up paying the full pricetag to upgrade the stadium to CFL standards. Bob Young gets most of what he wanted and saves face. Ticats remain in Hamilton, which is what everyone including the CFL wants.

go_leafs_go02
Aug 10, 2010, 5:40 PM
I think council will vote for WH. What happens then?

The PanAm funding is applied to the WH site for a small stadium. The animosity between the Ticats and city continues, but with the new reality that the WH stadium is the best place in Canada for a CFL club. The city ends up paying the full pricetag to upgrade the stadium to CFL standards. Bob Young gets most of what he wanted and saves face. Ticats remain in Hamilton, which is what everyone including the CFL wants.

However, from Bob Young's perspective, even if you have a beautiful funded stadium doesn't discount the fact that he's concerned more about operating costs in the future, since he believes thousands of fans will be discouraged from using transit or taking york Blvd/local roads to get to the stadium - and therefore won't purchase tickets, and therefore won't receive the revenue.

Unless the city subsidizes the team heavily if they play at WH, Bob Young believes he'll lose hand over fist in ticket sales.

There's no way they can upgrade the road network to WH?

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 5:49 PM
I think council will vote for WH. What happens then?

The PanAm funding is applied to the WH site for a small stadium. The animosity between the Ticats and city continues, but with the new reality that the WH stadium is the best place in Canada for a CFL club. The city ends up paying the full pricetag to upgrade the stadium to CFL standards. Bob Young gets most of what he wanted and saves face. Ticats remain in Hamilton, which is what everyone including the CFL wants.

Except for one small but important detail: funding will not be in place without an anchor tenant. A WH vote will mean no Pan Am stadium.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 5:51 PM
Chris Murray said the stadium doesn't require an anchor tenant. Ian Troop will want a legacy case though.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 5:52 PM
At the moment, thespec.com's live poll question on where council should put the stadium has these results:

East Mountain 41%
West Harbour 44%
Confederation Park 9%
Ivor Wynne 3%
No Stadium 2%

flar
Aug 10, 2010, 5:53 PM
However, from Bob Young's perspective, even if you have a beautiful funded stadium doesn't discount the fact that he's concerned more about operating costs in the future, since he believes thousands of fans will be discouraged from using transit or taking york Blvd/local roads to get to the stadium - and therefore won't purchase tickets, and therefore won't receive the revenue.

Unless the city subsidizes the team heavily if they play at WH, Bob Young believes he'll lose hand over fist in ticket sales.

There's no way they can upgrade the road network to WH?

There's no proof or basis to the assertion that the West Harbour will lose ticket sales. Come on, Detroit put their stadiums in the inner city, which is far worse and more dangerous than Hamilton. The real issue is control of parking revenue. Young thinks he needs that revenue to make it work. Maybe he does, but I'm inclined to believe that the CFL is inherently unpofitable and the East Mountain would quickly lose its lustre.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 5:56 PM
Chris Murray said the stadium doesn't require an anchor tenant. Ian Troop will want a legacy case though.

According to the staff report, the stadium is not viable without an anchor tenant. Gary Lunn has said federal funding is contingent on economic viability. The province is on record as saying they will not invest if the feds do not invest. Ergo, a WH without an anchor tenant means no federal funding, no provincial funding, and no stadium.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 5:59 PM
Chris Murray has a different story.

markbarbera
Aug 10, 2010, 6:01 PM
Chris Murray is talking about what Hostco wants. I am talking about the fed's requirements for funding. Follow the money trail, and a WH decision leads away from Hamilton.

SteelTown
Aug 10, 2010, 6:02 PM
A counselor points out that Hostco and the govts are passing the buck to each other on hamilton getting a stadium without tenant.

dennis1
Aug 10, 2010, 6:24 PM
Mark they are all passing the buck. Each one want the other to fund it with no tenant.

realcity
Aug 10, 2010, 7:00 PM
According to the staff report, the stadium is not viable without an anchor tenant. Gary Lunn has said federal funding is contingent on economic viability. The province is on record as saying they will not invest if the feds do not invest. Ergo, a WH without an anchor tenant means no federal funding, no provincial funding, and no stadium.

How many times do we have to keep saying this mark? It really is simple.
WH = No stadium and No Cats

Actually the stadium will be built, it'll just be built near a Toronto hiway.

Anders Knudsen
Aug 10, 2010, 7:13 PM
just listened to Rossini's financial report, very interesting. Both sites pretty much get a failing grade, EM with Ticats or WH without. Strangely he didn't calculate the costs for a 15,000 seat Harbour stadium, he was assuming an extra 50 million 25,000 seater in all scenarios. Anyway, EM fails utterly due to lost DCs and revenue from the parking lot they want to build on prime development land. Also some major financing obstacles in that they'd need to upfront 40 million worth of road projects. Merulla ended the thing by asking why the city doesn't just end this charade that's setting the citizens up for failure.