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markbarbera
Aug 13, 2010, 10:01 AM
Other than cutting and pasting other peoples opinions you should try some original thought if you have any. It's starting to sound more and more like you have been employed by the Ticats, repeating the same old talking points over and over.

Bigguy, this is an unfair statement even for you. Anyone who has been reading this SSP thread, whether they agree with me or not, knows I have brought forward many options to consider in order to resolve this impasse. I've certainly not been accused of a lack of original thought on this topic.You may not remember most of the points I was making months ago because you were too busy just replying 'too late it's WH' (talk about repeating the same old talking points!).

Unlike some people that post here, I never make a factual claim without backing it up by posting the source of my information. Similarly, when I refer to the general opinion of people on topics, I do not make a baseless claim, I post the article and/or commentary that supports that claim. It's a little something called adding credence to an argument. Simply repeating what you have heard just perpetuates misinformation. Surely you learned this from posting your false claims about the viability of CFL teams here.

BTW, for the record, no I am not employed by Bob Young in any way. But anyone that has actually read any of the threads in this SSP over the past few years would already know that. Be careful what conclusions you draw from what people post here. After all, seeing the talking points you place here, one could assume you work for Eisenberger's office, which I am pretty sure is not true. But if by some coincidence you do work for the mayor, I would really recommend updating your resume.

markbarbera
Aug 13, 2010, 10:21 AM
IMO, I have a compromise

Stoney Creek at fifty road? There will be a GO station out there too. And lots of land to make Young happy. Anyone?

This would probably be workable from a Ticat point of view, but the usual suspects would immediately start barking "Sprawl!". Kinda like the seagulls in Finding Nemo.

I still think the area that would be most likely to act as a compromise between the desire for having a central location yet still easily accessible by highways is somewhere along the 403. Like Kay Drage. Or Careport site. Or next to CP's Aberdeen freight yard.

bornagainbiking
Aug 13, 2010, 10:34 AM
This is almost a dead issue. The deadline was like May......
Just pass, on the stadium. Give someone else a chance to make a go of it. After 116 pages of this thread people are still talking about a possible location.
Most peolpe buy a lot and start building. We can't agree on a lot.
To listen to the whining on the radio yesterday. If you are not part of the sloution you are part of the problem and Hamilton can NEVER agree on a solution. Imagine the RedHill was 50 yrs, from idea to completion that is a lifetime. Builders wait and lawyers, consultants, polititions all collect annual salaries that eat up the estimated cost and drive up the price for the taxpayers.
Hey Burlington or Oakville wanna new stadium. hamilton can't make up it's mind.:slob: :slob: :whip: :whip:

SteelTown
Aug 13, 2010, 11:12 AM
Have the Waterfront Trust build a new waterfront restaurant that is the offical Tiger Cats restaurant. Ti Cats organization would get say 40% of the revenue.

Allow the city, community ownership, to buy 30 or 40% ownership stake at the Tiger Cats while Bob Young owns 60 to 70%.

During game day allow the Ti Cats to take 100% parking revenue.

Give season ticket holders free parking as suggested by IBI.

Build a special 403 ramp to the stadium along the CN land, Stadium Freeway. Two lanes maximum and tolled. Majority of the toll money would go to the Ti Cats.

AL3000
Aug 13, 2010, 11:30 AM
Have the Waterfront Trust build a new waterfront restaurant that is the offical Tiger Cats restaurant. Ti Cats organization would get say 40% of the revenue.

Allow the city, community ownership, to buy 30 or 40% ownership stake at the Tiger Cats while Bob Young owns 60 to 70%.

During game day allow the Ti Cats to take 100% parking revenue.

Give season ticket holders free parking as suggested by IBI.

Build a special 403 ramp to the stadium along the CN land, Stadium Freeway. Two lanes maximum and tolled. Majority of the toll money would go to the Ti Cats.

I see nothing wrong with those ideas; all but the ownership one. I'm not so sure Bob Young would be interested in sharing something he has solely owned for this long. Ultimately, it is about revenue and I believe all game-day related revenue should be assigned to the team owner, who can then tweak and build upon those to maximise on that stream even more.

SteelTown
Aug 13, 2010, 11:38 AM
I suggested minority community ownership because it would open up the accounting books of the Ti Cats and we would get a good financial sense of the Tiger Cats. If the Tiger Cats are bleeding in the red than both Bob Young and the City would lose money and therefore we'd be forced to fix it with a solution.

JayM
Aug 13, 2010, 11:43 AM
I see nothing wrong with those ideas; all but the ownership one. I'm not so sure Bob Young would be interested in sharing something he has solely owned for this long. Ultimately, it is about revenue and I believe all game-day related revenue should be assigned to the team owner, who can then tweak and build upon those to maximise on that stream even more.

I cant see too many other options for this move if it does so proceed. Quebec is the only place that is currently suitable for a larger capacity. They recently as of 2009 added a 2nd tier to accommodate the Vanier Cup for 2009 and 2010. Its pretty close to a 20,000 capacity stadium but will Universite Laval allow a CFL Franchise? This is a pretty messed up thing going on here.

markbarbera
Aug 13, 2010, 11:49 AM
Have the Waterfront Trust build a new waterfront restaurant that is the offical Tiger Cats restaurant. Ti Cats organization would get say 40% of the revenue.

Allow the city, community ownership, to buy 30 or 40% ownership stake at the Tiger Cats while Bob Young owns 60 to 70%.

During game day allow the Ti Cats to take 100% parking revenue.

Give season ticket holders free parking as suggested by IBI.

Build a special 403 ramp to the stadium along the CN land, Stadium Freeway. Two lanes maximum and tolled. Majority of the toll money would go to the Ti Cats.

These are interesting ideas.

Had the city actually built the Burlington Street extension to 403 way back when this whole discussion would have been different. Unfortunatey the idea of a highway along the CN lands as it stands today is not an option because the City consistently refuses to consider improving road access for the site. Also, seeing as it is CN lands means getting CN to agree to it.

Restaurant idea is creative but would the revenue stream be significant enough to make it a profitable venture for the Ticats? Remember we are talking about trying to improve upon an estimated $7 million annual operating loss if the Ticats play out of a WH site.

How would parking revenue split work? The majority of parking spots identified in the area are privately owned, and they are certainly not likely to forfeit parking revenue. I'd ballpark the city stock of parking within 1km of the site at 1500 spots. 1500*$20*10games=300,000. Fair bit of change, but still a very small portion of the $7 million shortfall. Free parking to season ticket holders would reduce income from parking too.

Berklon
Aug 13, 2010, 12:52 PM
Copps was built in what 1980? with the same argument. What has happened? A dollar store across the street anchored with a pizza and wing plaza. A halfway house, home to murderers and rapists across the street and a Quiznos. That's what Copps has done in 30 years to downtown.

You do realize that Copps doesn't have an NHL team as a tenant, right? That was the whole point to building the arena - to house an NHL team. Put an NHL team there and THEN tell me if the 41 regular season games per year (and however many exhibition and playoff games) has helped to add something to the downtown area. When Basillie tried to bring the Coyotes to Hamilton, I knew some people who were ready to buy some property downtown to open a restaurant, store, etc. This is how it works.

The majority of cities have placed their arenas and stadiums close to the downtown core in the last 10 years. Cities that have put their arenas/stadiums in the middle of nowhere have admitted that it was a mistake years later. Scotiabank Plaza is a perfect example of that mistake.
Where was the ACC built? Skydome? Where does Edmonton want to place their arena? This isn't a coincidence.

SteelTown
Aug 13, 2010, 1:07 PM
These are interesting ideas.

Had the city actually built the Burlington Street extension to 403 way back when this whole discussion would have been different. Unfortunatey the idea of a highway along the CN lands as it stands today is not an option because the City consistently refuses to consider improving road access for the site. Also, seeing as it is CN lands means getting CN to agree to it.

Restaurant idea is creative but would the revenue stream be significant enough to make it a profitable venture for the Ticats? Remember we are talking about trying to improve upon an estimated $7 million annual operating loss if the Ticats play out of a WH site.

How would parking revenue split work? The majority of parking spots identified in the area are privately owned, and they are certainly not likely to forfeit parking revenue. I'd ballpark the city stock of parking within 1km of the site at 1500 spots. 1500*$20*10games=300,000. Fair bit of change, but still a very small portion of the $7 million shortfall. Free parking to season ticket holders would reduce income from parking too.


I wouldn't build the full perimeter road. I would just have it from 403 to Bay St. Have it all done with a toll to pay off the cost of the construction and rest to the Tiger Cats. It doesn't matter what the City thinks it what City council thinks and I'm sure there would be enough to support a partial perimeter road aka Stadium Freeway.

If the CN doesn't want to cooperate than expropriate more homes along the CN track.

Think there's an estimated 6000 to 7000 parking space for the stadium site. All municipal owned parking spaces. 6000 x 20 = $120,000 per game. With 10 games a year = $1,200,000 towards the Ti Cats annually. Obviously more if they make it to the playoffs. I wouldn't split the parking money, I'd give full parking money towards the Ti Cats on game days.

With a large restaurant/pub the Ti Cats could probably make quarter or half a million each game day. The Ti Cats make a million apparently each game day from concession stands, heard that from CHCH.

Another idea is to have the Tiger Cats as minority owner of the stadium. Any profit from events being held the Ti Cats would get a piece of the revenue profit.

As Tim Gunn would say "Make it work!" There's always a solution.

dennis1
Aug 13, 2010, 1:16 PM
This would probably be workable from a Ticat point of view, but the usual suspects would immediately start barking "Sprawl!". Kinda like the seagulls in Finding Nemo.

I still think the area that would be most likely to act as a compromise between the desire for having a central location yet still easily accessible by highways is somewhere along the 403. Like Kay Drage. Or Careport site. Or next to CP's Aberdeen freight yard.

I think it would work fine. Its kind of sprawly but close to the QEWs and solves the transit issue in one shot.

BCTed
Aug 13, 2010, 1:32 PM
You do realize that Copps doesn't have an NHL team as a tenant, right? That was the whole point to building the arena - to house an NHL team. Put an NHL team there and THEN tell me if the 41 regular season games per year (and however many exhibition and playoff games) has helped to add something to the downtown area. When Basillie tried to bring the Coyotes to Hamilton, I knew some people who were ready to buy some property downtown to open a restaurant, store, etc. This is how it works.

The majority of cities have placed their arenas and stadiums close to the downtown core in the last 10 years. Cities that have put their arenas/stadiums in the middle of nowhere have admitted that it was a mistake years later. Scotiabank Plaza is a perfect example of that mistake.
Where was the ACC built? Skydome? Where does Edmonton want to place their arena? This isn't a coincidence.

Arenas are way different than football stadiums --- they are used dozens of times a year for all kinds of different purposes: hockey games, basketball games, other sports, concerts, monster truck rallies, ice shows, conventions, speeches, et cetera. I can totally see the appeal of placing large arenas in downtowns.

The SkyDome is also not quite the same as a football/soccer stadium in that it hosts the Blue Jays 81 times a year and is also very much a multi-purpose, arena-like venue. The roof allows for events like the Toronto car show, which could never happen in Hamilton's stadium. I can totally understand why the SkyDome is in downtown Toronto.

The proposed West Harbour stadium is not really comparable to an arena or a multi-purpose stadium with a roof like the SkyDome. It is much much more similar to something like Cleveland Browns Stadium.

I am really surprised that nobody has brought up the Cleveland stadium in this thread, where I have seen a game. This stadium was built only about a decade or so in Cleveland on the waterfront (sound familiar?) ---- it sits empty almost all year outside of the Browns games and many people lament the fact that it has done nothing but take up valuable real estate. The stadium has done absolutely nothing for downtown Cleveland or its lakefront and a West Harbour stadium would likely do as little for Hamilton.

The Tiger-Cats' proposed amphitheatre makes much more sense to me as a West Harbour attraction. A community soccer field also makes more sense as a West Harbour feature than does a full-blown CFL stadium.

The East Mountain site makes much more sense to me --- in many ways, it's actually better to tuck something so large and so infrequently used out of the way --- and the fact that the Tiger-Cats have such a strong preference for it is a clincher. I do not understand why Hamilton city council has been so opposed to it.

Urban_Genius
Aug 13, 2010, 1:40 PM
Great post Ted. I really don't understand how people can equate arenas and baseball stadiums to football/soccer stadiums. It makes no sense. There's a reason why all MLS stadiums aren't in downtowns and why virtually all new NFL stadiums aren't either.

SteelTown
Aug 13, 2010, 1:46 PM
Police are investigating a death threat against Mayor Fred Eisenberger.

http://www.thespec.com/news/article/248913--mayor-received-death-threat-over-stadium-standoff

oldcoote
Aug 13, 2010, 1:58 PM
Revenue streams
AND feel safe ...


Interesting.

I was leaving a Christmas party in Ancaster to go to another party downtown at This Aint Hollywood. The looks on the faces of people in Ancaster was shock.

I really believe that many on the mountain share this fear of downtown.

Then I started thinking about Bob Young and his desire to get out of the core. I wonder if through all his demographic research, he's decided to risk the current fans, in order to attract a new upper class base.

Maybe this isn't a geographic issue more than a socio-economic one.

mdsweet
Aug 13, 2010, 2:02 PM
With a large restaurant/pub the Ti Cats could probably make quarter or half a million each game day. The Ti Cats make a million apparently each game day from concession stands, heard that from CHCH.

Just as an FYI, busy bar and grill style restaurants pretty much max out at $100,000 in sales (not profit, just sales) for one week. A place I worked at had just over $1M in profit in one year and was the top location in the company Canada-wide.

Acajack
Aug 13, 2010, 2:11 PM
Have the Waterfront Trust build a new waterfront restaurant that is the offical Tiger Cats restaurant. Ti Cats organization would get say 40% of the revenue.

Allow the city, community ownership, to buy 30 or 40% ownership stake at the Tiger Cats while Bob Young owns 60 to 70%.

During game day allow the Ti Cats to take 100% parking revenue.

Give season ticket holders free parking as suggested by IBI.

Build a special 403 ramp to the stadium along the CN land, Stadium Freeway. Two lanes maximum and tolled. Majority of the toll money would go to the Ti Cats.

Since good attendance at Ticat games is always touch and go, it's probably not a good idea for force people to pay something they don't normally pay for elsewhere (like toll to access the road to the stadium). You draw more flies with honey than vinegar, as they say.

Other stuff like parking, concessions and a restaurant sound like good ideas though.

Acajack
Aug 13, 2010, 2:14 PM
I cant see too many other options for this move if it does so proceed. Quebec is the only place that is currently suitable for a larger capacity. They recently as of 2009 added a 2nd tier to accommodate the Vanier Cup for 2009 and 2010. Its pretty close to a 20,000 capacity stadium but will Universite Laval allow a CFL Franchise? This is a pretty messed up thing going on here.

The upper mezzanine they added to PEPS stadium at Laval brought the seating capacity up to 12,250 from 10,000. They are still a long way from 20,000.

In order to seat 20,000 for the Vanier Cup Laval had to add temporary seating.

Berklon
Aug 13, 2010, 2:20 PM
The Tiger-Cats' proposed amphitheatre makes much more sense to me as a West Harbour attraction. A community soccer field also makes more sense as a West Harbour feature than does a full-blown CFL stadium.

The Tiger-Cats's proposed amphitheatre was mentioned to seat 3,500 people... which is too small to accomodate any worthwhile concerts. It should be larger. A stadium can also accomodate larger concerts and is something they should be trying to provide for it. It's not just about football. I really don't see an EM location being attractive for hosting any concerts.

The East Mountain site makes much more sense to me --- in many ways, it's actually better to tuck something so large and so infrequently used out of the way --- and the fact that the Tiger-Cats have such a strong preference for it is a clincher. I do not understand why Hamilton city council has been so opposed to it.

That's the problem with the East Mountain... it's really only accessible by car. You lose the GO Train access and LRT access (I know some of you don't see this coming anyways). It's just not as an attractive option. If we're going to do the sprawl thing - I'd prefer the West Mountain since it's closer to GO Train and the A-Line LRT (once again, if it's happening)

Heinz Field is close to downtown Pittsburgh, the same with LP Field in Nashville and Ford Field is right in downtown Detroit. Not all cities are putting their football stadiums in the middle of nowhere... even though the NFL has MUCH larger stadiums and require bigger parking lots for tailgate parties. Hamilton's stadium will only be half the size of those NFL monstrosities and (I'm hoping) it's not just used for football once the Pan-Am games are over.

Anders Knudsen
Aug 13, 2010, 2:24 PM
The East Mountain site makes much more sense to me --- in many ways, it's actually better to tuck something so large and so infrequently used out of the way --- and the fact that the Tiger-Cats have such a strong preference for it is a clincher. I do not understand why Hamilton city council has been so opposed to it.

You call the mountain 'out of the way', but the Ticats chose it because it was so easily accessible. That same accessibility makes it prime real estate for development, and that's why you have to factor in lost revenues; DCs and taxes and projects that need to be delayed to accommodate this. The harbour even cleaned up won't generate anywhere near the same revenues. Someone who really supports the Mountain needs to make the case that the Cats are worth X amount of lost revenue plus so much of the future fund, because this isn't ever going to balance out. Remembering Lloyd Ferguson's mantra, "We are not a wealthy city."

realcity
Aug 13, 2010, 2:26 PM
You do realize that Copps doesn't have an NHL team as a tenant, right? That was the whole point to building the arena - to house an NHL team. Put an NHL team there and THEN tell me if the 41 regular season games per year (and however many exhibition and playoff games) has helped to add something to the downtown area. When Basillie tried to bring the Coyotes to Hamilton, I knew some people who were ready to buy some property downtown to open a restaurant, store, etc. This is how it works.

The majority of cities have placed their arenas and stadiums close to the downtown core in the last 10 years. Cities that have put their arenas/stadiums in the middle of nowhere have admitted that it was a mistake years later. Scotiabank Plaza is a perfect example of that mistake.
Where was the ACC built? Skydome? Where does Edmonton want to place their arena? This isn't a coincidence.


I do realize that Copps was built for an NHL tenant. So we like building facilities without major tenants, just like this stadium.

I agree stadiums in the middle of nowhere are a mistake. Why is it, that because I'm not in favour of WH, must mean I must want a stadium in the middle of nowhere?

Surely you must know by now Confederation Park/Van Wagners was my first choice. Actually my choice is for a location that will help the Cats thrive here and stay here.

Berklon
Aug 13, 2010, 2:33 PM
Interesting.

I was leaving a Christmas party in Ancaster to go to another party downtown at This Aint Hollywood. The looks on the faces of people in Ancaster was shock.

I really believe that many on the mountain share this fear of downtown.

I've heard a few people say the same thing... "downtown is unsafe... I dont want to get killed". It's never as bad as they think, but regardless - does that mean we should give up on downtown Hamilton? It's unsafe now... therefore it will always be unsafe? Imagine if NY gave up on cleaning up their downtown... or Pittsburgh, etc.

I see homeless people and junkies everyday in downtown Toronto on my way to work. There is MUCH more crime right in the heart of downtown Toronto (drive-by's, murders, etc). I feel less safe in downtown Toronto with all these suits, money and cops around than I do in downtown Hamilton.

Berklon
Aug 13, 2010, 2:38 PM
I do realize that Copps was built for an NHL tenant. So we like building facilities without major tenants, just like this stadium.

Well, no. Bob Young once said that he'd accept wherever the city decided to build the stadium. The WH stadium was a true option for the longest time and the intention always was for the Ti-Cats to play there. Bob Young is the one who pulled out.

realcity
Aug 13, 2010, 2:44 PM
Well, no. Bob Young once said that he'd accept wherever the city decided to build the stadium. The WH stadium was a true option for the longest time and the intention always was for the Ti-Cats to play there. Bob Young is the one who pulled out.

No. Bob said he'd play wherever the city built it, providing it made business sense. And besides he later said, he wouldn't play at WH, time and time again he made it very clear, the Cats will not play at WH.

You can't go, "but you said 6 months ago.....". He later changed his mind, so what? He changed his mind well ahead of the final council vote too.

So we continue to build another venue without a major tenant? And some people think this is a good use of the Future Fund and will help downtown.

Berklon
Aug 13, 2010, 2:54 PM
At this point, I say scrap the whole stadium plan and Pan-Am games altogether. It's obviously an issue that no majority of people will agree upon - so there's no use trying to fit a square peg in a round hole no matter what the options are. There will not be a majority of people who are happy - so it doesnt make sense.

Let the Ticats play out of IWS. No-one gives a shit aobut the Pan-Am games anyways - we were just looking for infrastructure.

Someone invest in a nice big-ass amphitheatre at the WH and continue developing that area. Keep the plans to run the GO train along James North with stops all the way to Niagara. Get LRT going. Continue the efforts to revitilize the downtown. Keep trying to get an NHL team - as impossible as it may seem.

Let's use the money for something else... something more useful and meaningful. That's my vote.

flar
Aug 13, 2010, 2:58 PM
Maybe this isn't a geographic issue more than a socio-economic one.

It is about that, the Ticats don't want another stadium in the ghetto. It's about putting the stadium in a spot that's convenient for people from outside Hamilton (or from Ancaster/Dundas/Mountain/Stoney Creek/Flamborough) to access without having to experience Hamilton.

dennis1
Aug 13, 2010, 3:05 PM
What was the whole point of merger again?

dennis1
Aug 13, 2010, 3:06 PM
At this point, I say scrap the whole stadium plan and Pan-Am games altogether. It's obviously an issue that no majority of people will agree upon - so there's no use trying to fit a square peg in a round hole no matter what the options are. There will not be a majority of people who are happy - so it doesnt make sense.

Let the Ticats play out of IWS. No-one gives a shit aobut the Pan-Am games anyways - we were just looking for infrastructure.

Someone invest in a nice big-ass amphitheatre at the WH and continue developing that area. Keep the plans to run the GO train along James North with stops all the way to Niagara. Get LRT going. Continue the efforts to revitilize the downtown. Keep trying to get an NHL team - as impossible as it may seem.

Let's use the money for something else... something more useful and meaningful. That's my vote.

I agree. Ampitheatre at WH for 10-15,000 K

Then let the Cats play out of IW until the lease is up.

BCTed
Aug 13, 2010, 3:06 PM
You call the mountain 'out of the way', but the Ticats chose it because it was so easily accessible. That same accessibility makes it prime real estate for development, and that's why you have to factor in lost revenues; DCs and taxes and projects that need to be delayed to accommodate this. The harbour even cleaned up won't generate anywhere near the same revenues. Someone who really supports the Mountain needs to make the case that the Cats are worth X amount of lost revenue plus so much of the future fund, because this isn't ever going to balance out. Remembering Lloyd Ferguson's mantra, "We are not a wealthy city."

Points taken. By "out of the way", I largely meant that it was not taking up space downtown --- the East Mountain site is certainly more accessible by car and the land clearly has value.

bigguy1231
Aug 13, 2010, 3:54 PM
I've heard a few people say the same thing... "downtown is unsafe... I dont want to get killed". It's never as bad as they think, but regardless - does that mean we should give up on downtown Hamilton? It's unsafe now... therefore it will always be unsafe? Imagine if NY gave up on cleaning up their downtown... or Pittsburgh, etc.

I see homeless people and junkies everyday in downtown Toronto on my way to work. There is MUCH more crime right in the heart of downtown Toronto (drive-by's, murders, etc). I feel less safe in downtown Toronto with all these suits, money and cops around than I do in downtown Hamilton.

I was on another forum and someone responded to the "downtown is dangerous" statement by mentioning that the crime rate at Limeridge mall is higher than it is downtown. Not sure if it true, but he sure shut the whiners up.

markbarbera
Aug 13, 2010, 4:00 PM
This news article ran in the Spec today. I've highlighted the bits that are important to note.

West harbour and mayor survive dip in confidence
Emma Reilly; With files from Daniel Nolan
August 13, 2010

THE HAMILTON SPECTATOR

Six councillors think Mayor Fred Eisenberger should be axed from future Pan Am negotiations.

Immediately after city councillors ratified the west harbour location for the Pan Am stadium yesterday, a motion was put forward that would have seen Eisenberger excluded from crucial Pan Am talks.

The move failed, with councillors Brad Clark, Terry Whitehead, Sam Merulla, Dave Mitchell, Russ Powers and Tom Jackson voting to exclude the mayor. But the attempt reflects some councillors' concern about the mayor's strained relationship with the Tiger-Cats.

The motion, presented by Clark, proposed that city manager Chris Murray and his second-in-command, Art Zuidema, should be the city's faces on the Pan Am file.

"With the greatest respect to the mayor, we're at an impasse," Clark said.

Whitehead, who seconded Clark's motion, stressed that the motion wasn't intended to be "exclusionary," but added politicians shouldn't be involved in the Pan Am negotiations.

"Sometimes, changing the faces around the table doesn't hurt," he said.

"Being entrenched or stubborn (makes) no allies."

The move reflects an undercurrent of anxiety among some councillors about the mayor's refusal to budge from the west harbour stadium plan, and how that's affecting the city's chances of enticing the football team to the west harbour site. Sources close to the issue say even councillors who voted against booting the mayor off negotiations quietly believe he needs to step back.

A frustrated Eisenberger took aim at the motion during yesterday's meeting, saying he found it "intriguing."

"I think it's kind of a cute way to say, 'Mr. Mayor, it's all your fault.' "

The vote came the same day council ratified Tuesday's decision to name the west harbour as the city's preferred site.

The west harbour passed 10-6 -- a slip from the 12-3 vote at Tuesday's marathon committee of the whole meeting.

Whitehead and Jackson switched their positions, while Merulla, Mitchell and Margaret McCarthy maintained their opposition to the site.

Clark was not present for the first vote but voted against west harbour yesterday.

Jackson was the first to announce his reversal.

"My constituents have spoken in volumes that something is wrong with the city's choice of the west harbour site without the Ticats," he said. "I have shared with the mayor, my council colleagues and city staff several times that I do not want an asterisk beside my name as a member of the council that lost a 141-year tradition in the community."

Whitehead said he's worried the city will lose the Games altogether and didn't expect the Pan Am Host Corporation to fund a stadium without a major tenant.

"In all likeliness, they'll say no. After the fallout, what are we left with? No new money, no remediation, and possibly no team."

City Pan Am point person David Adames met with HostCo officials last night to get a sense of how things will move forward. He and other staff met for three hours with 2015 CEO Ian Troop and Bill Senn, senior vice-president in charge of venues.

They talked about community use of the stadium and making it a development academy for soccer, Adames said, and the Ticat dilemma was discussed. He said the city is to give a status report in two weeks on talks with the football club. The city aims to hold talks in a media blackout.

Asked how important it was for Hostco to have the Tiger-Cats on board, Adames said, "I think it's important for Hostco and very important for city council."

"We have a lot of work to do."

http://www.thespec.com/print/article/248800


Should city staff manage to entice the Ticats to come back to the table, Eisenberger needs to remove himself from the process. He's done plenty already.

mattgrande
Aug 13, 2010, 4:37 PM
Councillors are stepping back from WH, but I'm still not hearing any of them (except maybe Brad Clark) supporting the East Mountain.

jgrwatson
Aug 13, 2010, 5:29 PM
Mark and Real,

Did either of you watch the entire council meeting yesterday?

If you did, you would see how manipulating and narrow-minded the councillors are that DON'T support the WH. I'm not arguing a site (although I support the WH), but both Ferg and Fred really nailed exactly the problems with the ticats, the manipulation of the ticats and how much of an no-brainer the WH really is!

I have read your posts and I am shocked you don't support the WH, and it seems all your facts are based on the Spec reporting.

Please, do us all a favor, take a class in economics and planning, determine why exactly the WH is not economically viable from the ticats perspective, then post a concrete factual statement!

Disclose: I work as a heritage planner, I have both an economics and urban planning degree. Oh and, the WH Is a nobrainer and the city of Hamilton has bend over backwards for Young and everyone involved plenty.

Jesse

Blurr
Aug 13, 2010, 5:48 PM
It is clear that we have to look forward. Forget about the past in Hamliton and what has happened to the hollowing out of the downtown core.

We have real investors with lots of money sparking interest in the core. Whether it be Balsilie, Katz or even some local developers and entrepreneurs, the choice is clearly downtown.

I am optimistic about downtown flourishing, and in an age where downtowns all across the US and Canada have been revitalized, it seems that we are late to the trend.

I am glad other people with big pockets and big dreams see it the same way. I am also happy that councilors are sticking towards the master plan.

Unfortunately, Young doesn't see it that way. That is ok, because certainly others do. We must not make the mistake of giving the biggest investment from Hamilton in a decade to someone who is stubborn about where the city wants to go with their future.

Mister F
Aug 13, 2010, 6:32 PM
I see homeless people and junkies everyday in downtown Toronto on my way to work. There is MUCH more crime right in the heart of downtown Toronto (drive-by's, murders, etc). I feel less safe in downtown Toronto with all these suits, money and cops around than I do in downtown Hamilton.
You're falling into the same trap as the suburbanites you're criticizing. Of the 60-70 murders every year, maybe a dozen are in the greater downtown area and hardly any in the vicinity of SkyDome. Toronto overall is safer than Hamilton and I'd bet it's the same story for the two downtowns, especially when you consider the sheer number of people in downtown Toronto. It's very safe by any standard.

Had the city actually built the Burlington Street extension to 403 way back when this whole discussion would have been different. Unfortunatey the idea of a highway along the CN lands as it stands today is not an option because the City consistently refuses to consider improving road access for the site. Also, seeing as it is CN lands means getting CN to agree to it.
Two CFL stadiums are next to highways, and both are next to mass transit. 4 teams aren't near a highway or rapid transit, including the most profitable team in the league. There's not a single CFL team that plays in the suburbs next to a highway with no rapid transit. And yet somehow they make it work. If the Ti-Cats aren't making money then the location of the stadium isn't the problem.

Anyway, unless they manage to get another city to build them a new stadium for free in the exact location they want, I don't see the Ti-Cats going anywhere.

markbarbera
Aug 13, 2010, 6:35 PM
Mark and Real,

Did either of you watch the entire council meeting yesterday?

If you did, you would see how manipulating and narrow-minded the councillors are that DON'T support the WH. I'm not arguing a site (although I support the WH), but both Ferg and Fred really nailed exactly the problems with the ticats, the manipulation of the ticats and how much of an no-brainer the WH really is!

I have read your posts and I am shocked you don't support the WH, and it seems all your facts are based on the Spec reporting.

Please, do us all a favor, take a class in economics and planning, determine why exactly the WH is not economically viable from the ticats perspective, then post a concrete factual statement!

Disclose: I work as a heritage planner, I have both an economics and urban planning degree. Oh and, the WH Is a nobrainer and the city of Hamilton has bend over backwards for Young and everyone involved plenty.

Jesse

Jesse,
No I did not watch the entire council meeting as I was at work. Fred and Lloyd could very well have been articulate in their description of Bob Young during the meeting. Of course these are career politicians about to face re-election, so I am sure their articulate presentation was all about being up front and honest and not at all about sticking to talking points prepared by a team of handlers desperate to conduct damage control ahead of the polls. Rule of thumb in political survival: blame the other guy, and if the other guy is not a career politician, then lay it on thick.

Thanks for your unsolicited advice about taking an economics course, but been there, done that. The reasons why WH is not viable for the Ticats has been discussed at nauseum, feel free to peruse the 100+ pages of entries here. But why take my word for it? Bob Young hired a team of specialists in stadium facility finance and planning, studied ten locations in Hamilton and WH came in dead last. But hey, who are we to believe the opinion of a multimillionaire or the economists he hires? He obviously should have hired you. Perhaps you can indulge the great unwashed and present to us the "concrete factual evidence" that makes the WH stadium location such a "no-brainer" for the Ticats to operate from. Unless of course you prefer to dish out advise you don't need to follow yourself.

By the way, if we were truly basing our opinion solely on the facts presented by the Spec, wouldn't we be a couple more mindless WH cheerleaders just like Howie and the news team at 44 Frid? It's not like their coverage has been balanced.

And, for those who have been following the posts here I need not say this again and I apologize for that, but for the record, I am neither a WH nor an EM supporter.

Berklon
Aug 13, 2010, 6:42 PM
You're falling into the same trap as the suburbanites you're criticizing. Of the 60-70 murders every year, maybe a dozen are in the greater downtown area and hardly any in the vicinity of SkyDome. Toronto overall is safer than Hamilton and I'd bet it's the same story for the two downtowns, especially when you consider the sheer number of people in downtown Toronto.

Yes, I was making a point... that people exaggerate things.

I'd like to see some numbers comparing the per capita crime rate of the two downtowns.

I don't actually feel unsafe in downtown Toronto, but I feel more unsafe there than I do in downtown Hamilton. The comments I hear from people about downtown Hamilton is that they feel unsafe because of the homeless people and junkies/drug-dealers - and somehow they feel like they'll get murdered because of them. I find more of them in my 10 minute walk from Union Station to the office than I do in any stretch of downtown Hamilton. Hell, at least in Hamilton I didn't have the pleasure of seeing some crackhead hold a woman hostage with a gun in front of our train station - and eventually get taken out by a sniper team.

mattgrande
Aug 13, 2010, 6:45 PM
Mark, is that report (comparing the 10 locations) publicly available? I can't seem to find it on the GoEastMountain site.

flar
Aug 13, 2010, 7:00 PM
Mark, is that report (comparing the 10 locations) publicly available? I can't seem to find it on the GoEastMountain site.

The report doesn't exist, although it is recommended by 9 out of 10 dentists over the leading brand.

markbarbera
Aug 13, 2010, 7:03 PM
Mark, is that report (comparing the 10 locations) publicly available? I can't seem to find it on the GoEastMountain site.

The report doesn't exist, although it is recommended by 9 out of 10 dentists over the leading brand.

Ask Fenn and Eisenberger, it was presented during facilitation.

omro
Aug 13, 2010, 7:06 PM
I was under the impression that the Tiger-Cats wanted to be handed a stadium for free and to then be able to have all the revenues it generates, such as control of the parking lot and concession.

It was pointed out to me today that for the cost saved from placing the Stadium on the East Mountain, the City could build the Stadium at the West Harbour and purchase the Tiger-Cats from Bob Young and still have change to spare. Apparently it would not be the only "community owned" CFL team in that event. There are two others.

It was also pointed out to me that Bob Young is probably using this situation as a way to allow the team to lapse into bankruptcy and lay the blame upon the city, rather than his own business management practices - allowing him to walk away cleanly.

mattgrande
Aug 13, 2010, 7:10 PM
Ask Fenn and Eisenberger, it was presented during facilitation.

So no, it's not available. If this report is such a slam dunk for them, why don't they have it posted on their website?

"We can't make money at the Harbour and we have a business plan that shows it."

"Can we see it?"

"No, but we also have a report showing that the Harbour is the worst place in Canada to put a stadium and would be subject to constant bear attacks."

"Can we see it?"

"No, trust me."

flar
Aug 13, 2010, 7:12 PM
I could also find 10 leading experts that rank the WH dead first out of ten locations in terms of usability. In fact, I could pay 10 consultants to say whatever I want.

markbarbera
Aug 13, 2010, 7:44 PM
I was under the impression that the Tiger-Cats wanted to be handed a stadium for free and to then be able to have all the revenues it generates, such as control of the parking lot and concession.

It was pointed out to me today that for the cost saved from placing the Stadium on the East Mountain, the City could build the Stadium at the West Harbour and purchase the Tiger-Cats from Bob Young and still have change to spare. Apparently it would not be the only "community owned" CFL team in that event. There are two others.

EM is a straw man. It's there so we focus on how awful that option is. That's the only reason why the city refused all but this location to be compared to WH, to ensure WH shone brighter so people would be duped into cheering for the less-worse site rather than identifying the best possible location for both the city and the Ticats.

It was also pointed out to me that Bob Young is probably using this situation as a way to allow the team to lapse into bankruptcy and lay the blame upon the city, rather than his own business management practices - allowing him to walk away cleanly

I heard that Bob Young is actually an alien overlord secretly distracting the citizens of Hamilton so we are caught unawares when the invasion begins.

The conspiracy theorists are hard at work, that is for sure.

BCTed
Aug 13, 2010, 7:50 PM
I could also find 10 leading experts that rank the WH dead first out of ten locations in terms of usability. In fact, I could pay 10 consultants to say whatever I want.

Ask ten experts what the lakefront football stadium has done for downtown Cleveland.

mattgrande
Aug 13, 2010, 8:04 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Cleveland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Coast_Harbor

Looks pretty nice to me.

EDIT - Although, on the other side: http://www.streetsblog.org/2010/01/04/stadium-deals-drain-cities/

markbarbera
Aug 13, 2010, 8:20 PM
Two CFL stadiums are next to highways, and both are next to mass transit. 4 teams aren't near a highway or rapid transit, including the most profitable team in the league.

Winnipeg has just started construction of their new CFL stadium. This is the first new stadium for a CFL team in decades.

Will the Winnipeg stadium be in urban or suburban location?

Will there be on site parking for the new Winnipeg stadium? If so, how many spots?

Is there any kind of highway access to the new stadium? If so, how direct?

How is Winnipeg currently performing financially?

How much is the owner of the Winnipg Blue Bombers putting towards construction of the stadium?

I'll post the answers in a bit. In the meantime, everyone, please have fun on the Internet finding the answers. The last one is a trick question.

markbarbera
Aug 13, 2010, 8:25 PM
Ask ten experts what the lakefront football stadium has done for downtown Cleveland.

Downtown Cleveland is so rockin', even the Starbucks closes on a Sunday.

thurmas
Aug 13, 2010, 8:29 PM
Being a Winnipeger our new stadium is at the university of Manitoba in our prosperous south end which is about 15-20 minute drive south of downtown. We are currently building a rapid transit line to the university but our Mayor has changed his mind on it being bus rapid transit and is now seeking to make it rail rapid transit he is negotiating with the province on that. David Asper is paying most of the cost through his real estate firm creswin with the feds and prov kicking in $35 mil. The Asper deal hinges on him selling the land the current bomber stadium sits on and making it a high end shopping district. He is in the process of getting all of his occupants for the shopping district.

SteelTown
Aug 13, 2010, 8:34 PM
Apparently it's already over budget and who is going to pay for that?

thurmas
Aug 13, 2010, 8:38 PM
we don't know yet he is negotiating with the premier and the feds.personally I don't like Asper taking control of the Bombers I much prefer staying a community owned club.

markbarbera
Aug 13, 2010, 8:43 PM
we don't know yet he is negotiating with the premier and the feds.personally I don't like Asper taking control of the Bombers I much prefer staying a community owned club.

Yes, the Asper deal is fishy. That's what made me describe the last of my questions as 'tricky'. He is putting forward @ $65 million, but in return the city transfers ownership of the BB to him.

How about the highway access question, and the parking?

thurmas
Aug 13, 2010, 9:18 PM
There is tons of parking at the uofm campus.Bomber games are usually friday nights or weekends when the campus parking is deserted.There are not many turn offs though to the campus however there is excellent transit access to the stadium.

SteelTown
Aug 13, 2010, 9:42 PM
Bob Young will be on TSN during halftime for an interview. Should an interesting one.

SteelTown
Aug 13, 2010, 9:42 PM
Bob Young will be on TSN during halftime for an interview. Should an interesting one.

dennis1
Aug 13, 2010, 9:55 PM
thurmas asper just ran his fathers company into the ground. why would winnpeg trust him with the bombers.

markbarbera
Aug 13, 2010, 10:12 PM
Remember this email I sent to Mayor Fred Thursday morning?
Mr. Mayor,

I am writing to express to you my complete disappointment in the manner in which you and Hamilton Council have handled the issue of the potential site location of a new Pan Am stadium in Hamilton.

As a resident of Ward 2, I completely understand your desire to focus energies on reviving the downtown and waterfront neighbourhoods. As a resident of the city I have done my bit by making a conscious decision to purchase a home and set up my residence in the downtown area. For me, the notion that a stadium is an appropriate device for facilitating urban renewal may be well-meaning but completely inappropriate. The key to reviving the downtown is to make it a more attractive place to live and work. A stadium only serves to facilitate the occasional visit confined to the immediate precinct, and would fail to act as an anchor for the kind of concentration of jobs and residents required to once again make the lower city a living, breathing, vibrant place. In fact, placing the stadium at this site completely contradicts the vision detailed in the City’s “Setting Sail” plan for the West Harbor area.

I can appreciate the pressing need to remediate and reclaim the contaminated lands in the West Harbour area. There are many options available to council to address this need, only one of which is a new stadium. Placing a stadium at this site may resolve this contamination issue, but this is at a cost of over $60 million dollars to this city. This exorbitant amount may have been justifiable if the stadium was to be economically viable and act as the new home for the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. However, it is quite apparent that the Tiger-Cats will not locate here, and city staff made it quite clear in their report to Council that this stadium would not be viable without the Tiger-Cats as a tenant. Given these new facts, it is incumbent upon you and all Council members to reconsider the wisdom of such a large investment on a facility destined to become an annual drain on the city coffers.

Surely some consideration must be given to a more economically sound approach to reclaiming this contaminated property, one that actually works in tandem with the principles of the ‘Setting Sail” plan. The city now owns the contaminated land and I understand remediation costs are estimated at between $5 and $10 million. Instead of removing $60 million from the Future Fund, why not use a fraction of that to remediate the land and repurpose it in a fashion compatible with the principles of “Setting Sail”? For example, I understand Mohawk College and McMaster University are exploring the possibility of a joint downtown campus. For me it makes much more sense to work with them to establish a campus on the remediated former Rheem lands. This campus could have an emphasis on the liberal arts, which would dovetail perfectly with the emerging arts scene on James North. Why hasn’t this opportunity been explored? How many other opportunities are being squandered by your fixation on a stadium at this site?

Putting all that aside, I want to express my frustration with Council in general, and with you in particular regarding your approach to Bob Young and the Hamilton Tiger-Cat organization. The Tiger Cats have had a working relationship with this city that spans two centuries. During the span of this relationship, they have made a significant contribution to the fabric of Hamilton both on and off the playing field. They have been a symbol of our civic pride nationwide to the degree that the Black and Gold has come to represent not just the Tiger-Cats but the City of Hamilton itself on the national stage. The Tiger-Cat organization has donated countless hours and dollars to local charity and community events over the years. Your inflexibility on site location has damaged this relationship so deeply that we are at the point where this 140-year relationship is coming to an end. The loss of the Tiger-Cats goes far beyond losing the presence of the CFL in Hamilton. Their loss will be crippling to the many local charities who have benefitted from the generosity of the Ticat organization. All of council must ask itself this question: Is the remediation of 20 acres of West Harbour land truly worth $60 million dollars as well as the loss of the Hamilton Tiger-Cats?

Mr. Mayor, yesterday, the Hamilton Spectator quoted you as saying, with reference to Bob Young and the Ticat organization, "I hope that entrenched positions on their side don't continue and that they come to the table in earnest and talk about the serious intent of our city council". I cannot begin to express my disappointment and frustration with this comment. Mr. Mayor, no one is more entrenched in their position on a stadium site than yourself. You have been completely inflexible in your position that the stadium must be located at the West Harbour site. In order to resolve this impasse all parties involved need to move from entrenched positions, including yourself. Mr. Mayor, you need to heed your own advice or this city will end up losing the Hamilton Tiger-Cats as well as funding from the federal and provincial governments for any new stadium.

Mayor Eisenberger, in 2006 I voted for you because at the time you represented a mayoral candidate who would move away from a confrontational style of governance and more towards a role of one who governs by building consensus. This entire stadium debacle has shown how wrong I was about you. I cannot be more disappointed with my choice for mayor as I am today. Should this stadium situation continue down its current path, rest assured I will not be making the same mistake when I visit the polling station in October. I implore you to abandon your entrenched position regarding the West Harbour lands and assume the role of consensus-builder that you promised in 2006. The damage from failing to do so will gravely impact the city beyond this fall and well into the decades that lie ahead for this city. I implore you and all council members to reconsider your position before it is too late.


Well, I just checked my email and he has replied, so , as promised, here is his response:

Thanks for the comments Mark. There has been a vigorous community-wide debate, and now council has reconfirmed the West Harbour for the future Pan Am stadium. Now the real work begins. We will be working with our Pan Am partners, including Pan Am HostCo, the federal and provincial governments, and the private sector, to make sure that we have stadium that is not only a great place to hold Pan Am events, but serves the entire community for many years to come. The Pan Am games is an exciting opportunity for everyone in the community and will mean a lasting legacy of great community venues, a renewed interest in sports, increased awareness of health and wellness, and a welcome lift that will help us build the Hamilton of the future. Thank you for interest in the stadium and the Pan Am games.
Cheers, Fred

Migs
Aug 13, 2010, 10:17 PM
20 years old.

Alot of of people at school don't even know the CFL exists
That says more about your school than anything.

Migs
Aug 13, 2010, 10:30 PM
Speaking for many of my friends here out west, there was a time when I wanted to visit Hamilton and go to a Ticats game when the Riders were in town. Those days are over, I think we will be spending our vacation dollars elsewhere. If I were you guys, I would be calling and writing each and every coucillor in city hall and letting them know how much the rest of Canada is shaming you right now. I have to say however that the people I do feel truly bad for are the diehard Ticats fans that have been there for decades, it truly is sad that many of you would prefer a small stadium that will be barely used to a larger stadium that would house a great Hamilton tradition for many years to come (including GreyCups). Guess how much money GreyCups bring into the local economy?

That said, Bob Young is loved out west because of his love and devotion to OUR (Yup our means Canadian) league and its sad to think that some hacks in cityhall are have turned your city into a national embarrasment.

Migs
Aug 13, 2010, 10:36 PM
why is this only apparent to everyone outside of Hamilton? We made quite possibly the biggest mistake in this cities history. It could be the final nail and the Hammer put the nail in itself.
5 years from now you guys will all shake your heads in disbelief, I just hope its not too late.

emge
Aug 13, 2010, 10:44 PM
Revenue streams
1. season ticket sales
2. gate tickets
3. tv sponsors
4. parking revenue
5. merchandis
6. I don't know.

Awesome start. I think you've got all the big ones.... I've written some same or smaller-size ones down, with 3 qualifiers, if you're interested.

1. Target market. Ti-Cats have to change their target market, though the regional customer can still be a big part of it.
2. Leverage the advantages of the downtown location and market from them. There's some unique things you can do in this spot.
3. This goes without saying, but the Ti-Cats store has to be prominent and visible, if not for profit, for marketing. They have to leave an INVISIBLE location (seriously, I lived for a year in the same neighbourhood, walking by on King almost every day, before I realized it was there. LAME.)

Revenue streams

Broadcasting rights/television stuff (not big in Canada, I know)
Licensing income/ team merchandise
Sponsor companies on team merchandise/uniforms/etc.
Naming rights for the stadium
Beverage/food concession privileges and revenue - this can be big, especially with exclusive privileges for certain companies, etc. Also important are the general design and attractiveness of concessions -- does every target market have something? (That's my question, not out of Google... concessions cost next to nothing and make a lot of money, and targeting them makes sense).
Catering and hospitality events; adding conference revenue from clustered team-owned/team-branded buildings and/or space within a stadium. Partner these buildings with a naming-rights sponsor; and/or partner with McMaster or Mohawk and bring in an education component, you'll be hosting small to medium events in addition to giant stadium-requiring ones too. Add that revenue stream as well as bringing people in who may eventually buy tickets.
Advertising placement/rights
Luxury suites and club seats. The Ti-Cats could even bring in something like “personal seat licenses”; increase their premium seating, corporate boxes– well-designed ones can bring in big bucks especially coupled with premium seating sales strategies... their current marketing for this stuff is terrible.
Parking (yep, it's one of the streams, i agree.)
Tailgating. Along with parking, what about premium spots and planned/permitted tailgating near the stadium? Sure, people can tailgate at other locations, but to establish the parking they do have for that would be a brilliant marketing move, if bylaws and more can move around it
This is outrageous thinking for Hamilton at this point, but this is fascinating -- http://www.designbuild-network.com/projects/ashburton/


Marketing and clustering potential with the

Sports museums/Hall of Fame relocation
Team retail clustered with other sport-related retail outlets nearby
Design of the stadium itself (maximized seating close to the field for premium ticket prices; integration with surroundings)
Control of events besides games day (obvious)
College and university marketing and business programs located at the stadium – free talent, free assistance, people as a draw and collaboration – also leverages the marketing of the Ti-Cats to student populations!
GO Transit nearby, game-day packages, opportunities to advertise to commuters on the Lakeshore line!
Along with clustering opportunities, different packages and merchandising strategies (their current limo package is pretty low-rent and their luxury boxes don't look that great)
Strategic retail and hotels/hotel packages nearby; team store and other retail
Restaurants nearby for business purposes/meetings; business-specific marketing.
Outdoor concourses and themed entertainment zones
Huge opportunity for green marketing and working with other initiatives nearby; again, target market!!!
It's still possible to redeem and leverage the integrity and personality of the owner; homegrown credentials are big
Better social media marketing strategies and increased game-day initiatives with social media will resonate with another demographic.

Berklon
Aug 13, 2010, 10:47 PM
That says more about your school than anything.

Schools out in Regina have courses on sports franchises?

Speaking for many of my friends here out west, there was a time when I wanted to visit Hamilton and go to a Ticats game when the Riders were in town. Those days are over, I think we will be spending our vacation dollars elsewhere.

You seem to be taking this a little too personally.

I really hope Toronto gets an NFL team... even moreso now.

thurmas
Aug 13, 2010, 10:50 PM
I know dennis I don't like asper at all, their whole family is just a joke in Winnipeg now. Asper is a real hothead and I worry he might meddle in coaching decesions or GM decesion if he owns the club.With all his money troubles though the good thing is if he can't come up with the money to build the stadium the club stays community owned and the province would sell the land that canadinns stadium sits on to pay for the stadium costs since it is being built no matter what!

Migs
Aug 13, 2010, 11:00 PM
Schools out in Regina have courses on sports franchises?
Nope but we do have courses on Canadian history and what it means to be proud of your country and the many different aspects of it. (hint hint, that has nothing to do with the NFL.)



You seem to be taking this a little too personally.

I really hope Toronto gets an NFL team... even moreso now.
With the fact that Rogers literally has to give away tickets to Bills games at the Skydome, you can forget that ever happening.

SteelTown
Aug 13, 2010, 11:03 PM
http://www.900chml.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocalGeneral/Story.aspx?ID=1264883

Interesting interview with David Adames. Sounds like the business plan without the Tiger Cats will be mostly about soccer and a soccer academy.

JayM
Aug 13, 2010, 11:07 PM
thurmas asper just ran his fathers company into the ground. why would winnpeg trust him with the bombers.

I think that is the CFL Franchise question.

mattgrande
Aug 13, 2010, 11:19 PM
With the fact that Rogers literally has to give away tickets to Bills games at the Skydome, you can forget that ever happening.

The problem is Bills tickets at the Skydome is about triple the price of a Bills game in Buffalo. My dad, and a few other people I know, have headed into the US for games, but won't go to the games in Toronto because of the cost.

Also, do you really base where you're going on vacation by CFL club? Seems a little odd to me.

bigguy1231
Aug 13, 2010, 11:36 PM
http://www.900chml.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocalGeneral/Story.aspx?ID=1264883

Interesting interview with David Adames. Sounds like the business plan without the Tiger Cats will be mostly about soccer and a soccer academy.

Well soccer is the biggest participation sport in the city. So it would fit in nicely.

Berklon
Aug 14, 2010, 12:33 AM
Nope but we do have courses on Canadian history and what it means to be proud of your country and the many different aspects of it. (hint hint, that has nothing to do with the NFL.)

Yeah... I fail to see what that has to do with the CFL. Someone's preference has nothing to do with national pride.

With the fact that Rogers literally has to give away tickets to Bills games at the Skydome, you can forget that ever happening.

The reason's been discussed to death... if you think that's an indication of NFL support - you're sadly mistaken. Of course when Toronto eventually makes an official bid for an NFL team, I'm sure all the whiney CFL fans will come crying that we shouldn't allow it because it will kill their league.

Urban_Genius
Aug 14, 2010, 12:37 AM
http://www.900chml.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocalGeneral/Story.aspx?ID=1264883

Interesting interview with David Adames. Sounds like the business plan without the Tiger Cats will be mostly about soccer and a soccer academy.

I didn't listen to the interview, so forgive me if it's been answered.
But how exactly does the mayor plan to fill the stadium with soccer when Bob Young owns the rights to the NASL team?

Needless to say Hamilton isn't getting an MLS team, so what gives?

SteelTown
Aug 14, 2010, 12:41 AM
There's D2 Pro League.

bigguy1231
Aug 14, 2010, 12:55 AM
I didn't listen to the interview, so forgive me if it's been answered.
But how exactly does the mayor plan to fill the stadium with soccer when Bob Young owns the rights to the NASL team?

Needless to say Hamilton isn't getting an MLS team, so what gives?

The city makes nothing from the Ticats now so whats the difference whether they fill the stadium for soccer or not. Ivor Wynne is used 200 days per year, only 10 of those dates are for the Ticats. Most of the other users actually pay rent.

markbarbera
Aug 14, 2010, 1:04 AM
There's D2 Pro League.

Will this league still be around? Regardless, doesn't Young already have right of first refusal for NASL?

markbarbera
Aug 14, 2010, 1:11 AM
The city makes nothing from the Ticats now so whats the difference whether they fill the stadium for soccer or not. Ivor Wynne is used 200 days per year, only 10 of those dates are for the Ticats. Most of the other users actually pay rent.

The events currently held at Ivor Wynne don't bring in cash to cover operating costs, nor will they at a new stadium. If there isn't a tenant covering the operational costs, the stadium is not financially viable - it's not the number of games, it's what the tenant contributes to the operational costs of the facility.

bigguy1231
Aug 14, 2010, 1:16 AM
The events currently held at Ivor Wynne don't bring in cash to cover operating costs, nor will they at a new stadium. If there isn't a tenant covering the operational costs, the stadium is not financially viable - it's not the number of games, it's what the tenant contributes to the operational costs of the facility.

The Ticats don't pay operational costs now, what makes you think they will in a new stadium. Thats what all of this BS is about. They want a deal where they get something for nothing.

markbarbera
Aug 14, 2010, 1:30 AM
The Ticats don't pay operational costs now, what makes you think they will in a new stadium. Thats what all of this BS is about. They want a deal where they get something for nothing.

You know the current arrangement was all about the exceptional costs of maintaining Ivor Wynne and would not be carried over to a new stadium that was economically viable.

Ticats are playing brilliantly right now, by the way. Why not tune in and enjoy them while they still carry the Hamilton name?

dennis1
Aug 14, 2010, 1:43 AM
That says more about your school than anything.

What do you want from me? This is Southern Ontario. People now look south and that want change for the time being.

dennis1
Aug 14, 2010, 1:47 AM
Nope but we do have courses on Canadian history and what it means to be proud of your country and the many different aspects of it. (hint hint, that has nothing to do with the NFL.)




With the fact that Rogers literally has to give away tickets to Bills games at the Skydome, you can forget that ever happening.

Tickets will be given away when the prices are 3x higher than that of similar large markets like Dallas, Philly, ATL, DC, Houston, Miami, Boston and the Bay Area.


history is only mandatory for ontario in grade 10. and its not even canadian. a lot of kids take american history in grade 11


Personally, I think nationalism is boring. You should be against TFC, the Jays and Raptors if you are against the Toronto NFL. Also don't forget the all american NHL.

dennis1
Aug 14, 2010, 1:50 AM
I know dennis I don't like asper at all, their whole family is just a joke in Winnipeg now. Asper is a real hothead and I worry he might meddle in coaching decesions or GM decesion if he owns the club.With all his money troubles though the good thing is if he can't come up with the money to build the stadium the club stays community owned and the province would sell the land that canadinns stadium sits on to pay for the stadium costs since it is being built no matter what!

He better not. This fool turned an empire into a testing ground for shaw cable. At least comcast, time warner or some shitty US company with bad customer service didn't buy it. If he buys the stadium and team watch the bombers will go in the red real quick.

SteelTown
Aug 14, 2010, 2:13 AM
So basically during the interview Bob Young said he'll find a solution to keep the Tiger Cats in Hamilton.

dennis1
Aug 14, 2010, 2:13 AM
Migs, why does everyone have to like the same thing?

bigguy1231
Aug 14, 2010, 2:19 AM
So basically during the interview Bob Young said he'll find a solution to keep the Tiger Cats in Hamilton.

Exactly, this is all about getting something for nothing. He wasn't very convincing if he wants people to believe he is going to move the team elsewhere.

I am still trying to figure out where the GO station would be close to the East Mountain.

dennis1
Aug 14, 2010, 2:21 AM
Is he punking out? Wow....

SteelTown
Aug 14, 2010, 2:23 AM
He wants the Perimeter Road basically, that's just my feeling.

bigguy1231
Aug 14, 2010, 2:27 AM
You know the current arrangement was all about the exceptional costs of maintaining Ivor Wynne and would not be carried over to a new stadium that was economically viable.

Ticats are playing brilliantly right now, by the way. Why not tune in and enjoy them while they still carry the Hamilton name?

The city is paying the current maintenance costs on the stadium. What does that have to do with the fact that the city gets only a token amount of rent while the Ticats reap the benefits of all revenue from the stadium.

bigguy1231
Aug 14, 2010, 2:30 AM
He wants the Perimeter Road basically, that's just my feeling.

The last estimate for the cost of the Perimeter road was somewhere around $200 million if I remember correctly. Thats why the city shelved that plan. It won't happen anytime soon, unless the province decides to pay for it.

SteelTown
Aug 14, 2010, 2:32 AM
Toll it. Use the toll money to pay for the construction cost.

I wouldn't support the full Perimeter Road, just 403 to Bay St. Majority of that section of land would be below grade and hidden away along the CN land. It's basically already buried for us.

AL3000
Aug 14, 2010, 2:35 AM
Toll it. Use the money to pay for the construction cost.

I never understood this aversion to toll roads in Canada. People who drive to the States often remark about how nice the highways are down there. Well, guess why? I say toll away, Hamilton.

SteelTown
Aug 14, 2010, 2:37 AM
Driving to Ralph Wilson Stadium in Buffalo you have to hit a few tolls as well.

markbarbera
Aug 14, 2010, 2:42 AM
So basically during the interview Bob Young said he'll find a solution to keep the Tiger Cats in Hamilton.

Actually he said he needs to find a solution to get the Ticats economically viable. He said he would like that solution to be in Hamilton, but there currently isn't a solution in Hamilton so he is exploring all possible solutions.

bigguy1231
Aug 14, 2010, 2:42 AM
Toll it. Use the toll money to pay for the construction cost.

I wouldn't support the full Perimeter Road, just 403 to Bay St. Majority of that section of land would be below grade and hidden away along the CN land. It's basically already buried for us.

If they put a toll on it nobody would use it. There are too many alternatives. But we could use it on non game days as a bike route.

bigguy1231
Aug 14, 2010, 2:46 AM
Actually he said he needs to find a solution to get the Ticats economically viable. He said he would like that solution to be in Hamilton, but there currently isn't a solution in Hamilton so he is exploring all possible solutions.

In other words he's got nothing to fall back on.

SteelTown
Aug 14, 2010, 2:52 AM
One creative solution would be giving each season ticket holder a transponder to avoid the toll cost.

markbarbera
Aug 14, 2010, 2:52 AM
In other words he's got nothing to fall back on.

As he said, all his energies had been focused on a solution in Hamilton. Now he is exploring solutions outside Hamilton. Because he hadn't considered leaving Hamilton previously, he may very well have had nothing to fall back on, but it's not like he has to go around cup in hand. He's got municipalities already calling him up to discuss possibilities in their communities.

markbarbera
Aug 14, 2010, 2:56 AM
The last estimate for the cost of the Perimeter road was somewhere around $200 million if I remember correctly. Thats why the city shelved that plan. It won't happen anytime soon, unless the province decides to pay for it.

Does it matter? The city has consistently refused to consider road improvements for the area.

Heck, if you are going to tack on a $200 million road to the overall stadium development price tag, all of a sudden EM becomes the significantly cheaper alternative.

bigguy1231
Aug 14, 2010, 2:57 AM
As he said, all his energies had been focused on a solution in Hamilton. Now he is exploring solutions outside Hamilton. Because he hadn't considered leaving Hamilton previously, he may very well have had nothing to fall back on, but it's not like he has to go around cup in hand. He's got municipalities already calling him up to discuss possibilities in their communities.

Like I said in an earlier post he didn't sound too convincing about seeking alternative sites outside of the city.

As for not going around with cup in hand, I think thats exactly what he is going to have to do. There are not too many cities or towns willing to put up money to subsidize a professional football team.

bigguy1231
Aug 14, 2010, 3:04 AM
Does it matter? The city has consistently refused to consider road improvements for the area.

Heck, if you are going to tack on a $200 million road to the overall stadium development price tag, all of a sudden EM becomes the significantly cheaper alternative.

My gawd, your comprehension skills are seriously lacking.

All I was doing was passing on information. I wasn't supporting or opposing it.

markbarbera
Aug 14, 2010, 3:05 AM
Like I said in an earlier post he didn't sound too convincing about seeking alternative sites outside of the city.

As for not going around with cup in hand, I think thats exactly what he is going to have to do. There are not too many cities or towns willing to put up money to subsidize a professional football team.

We'll have to watch and see.

One thing I have noticed, Bob Young has a peculiar way of talking. Kinda folksy-goofy sounding, a lot of head movement and laughing. I think a lot of people misread his mannerisms as someone who's unsure or hesitant. I think it leads to a lot of people underestimating his drive and determination. But a guy does not get to be a multi-millionaire without having some drive and determination in his structure. Bob is not someone you can accurately second-guess by mannerisms, something I am pretty sure Eisenberger's team is far too aware of now.

Migs
Aug 14, 2010, 3:06 AM
The problem is Bills tickets at the Skydome is about triple the price of a Bills game in Buffalo. My dad, and a few other people I know, have headed into the US for games, but won't go to the games in Toronto because of the cost.

Also, do you really base where you're going on vacation by CFL club? Seems a little odd to me.
....yup and the Bills are an American team in a small market. What do you think NFL tickets would cost in Toronto if they had their own team? Likely even more than when its not their own team ie Bills.

And yes I do base some of my vacations on following my team, going to Edm in two weeks and Toronto in Oct, just like many fans do down in the States.

Migs
Aug 14, 2010, 3:09 AM
The city makes nothing from the Ticats now so whats the difference whether they fill the stadium for soccer or not. Ivor Wynne is used 200 days per year, only 10 of those dates are for the Ticats. Most of the other users actually pay rent.
Are you really nieve enough to believe the city receives nothing from Ticats games? Wow perhaps you should educate yourself on what 20,000+crowd events do for a cities GDP and economic activity.