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mattgrande
Sep 13, 2010, 7:37 PM
If there isn't something firm tomorrow, I'm willing to bet HostCo will be saying "No thanks" to Hamilton.

markbarbera
Sep 13, 2010, 7:59 PM
If the staff recommendation is adopted by council, it is certain to be supported by Hostco. This is the closest the city has ever been to a successful resolution to this impasse. If the CP lands south of Aberdeen can be acquired for the stadium, council should go for it.

dennis1
Sep 13, 2010, 8:04 PM
That's were the all day service will be trains are running right?

markbarbera
Sep 13, 2010, 8:13 PM
There is no all day service to Hamilton currently. When all day service is extended, it will be using the CN line which skirts the north end of the city.

The current rush hour service runs along the CP line, but heads east just south of Main into the Hunter Street GO Centre.

This site is a spur to CP freight yards. CP has been looking at winding down its operation of this yard for a couple years now.

Jon Dalton
Sep 13, 2010, 8:25 PM
So who is responsible for the funding shortfall if this proposal is accepted by the city and Hostco? The extra tens of millions to upgrade to 25,000 seats? The cats have been pretty clear that it's not going to be them. No private sector funding has materialized.

If we agree to this, is the city going to be on the hook?

Enough of trying to shoehorn a 25,000 seat stadium and a magic fix for the Cats' unprofitability a into this ever-shrinking Pan Am commitment. It won't work, let's not set ourselves up to fail.

dennis1
Sep 13, 2010, 9:05 PM
There is no all day service to Hamilton currently. When all day service is extended, it will be using the CN line which skirts the north end of the city.

The current rush hour service runs along the CP line, but heads east just south of Main into the Hunter Street GO Centre.

This site is a spur to CP freight yards. CP has been looking at winding down its operation of this yard for a couple years now.

Thanks I just want to want to know. That's my number 1 priority, the GO Train expansion.

matt602
Sep 13, 2010, 9:55 PM
The Aberdeen yard is growing more and more pointless to CP as the years pass and industries have left. Kinnear Yard at Gage/Lawrence is a lot bigger and usually much more important and useful as both a yard and crew change point (it is also right along the CP Hamilton Subdivision, only a few km's East of the Hunter street GO station). I can't imagine losing Aberdeen yard would be incredibly detrimental to CP at this point.

LikeHamilton
Sep 13, 2010, 10:09 PM
Google earth of the property.

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/34/mip1.jpg

SteelTown
Sep 14, 2010, 12:02 AM
I'm glad they are recommending the stadium at the CP rail yards and not the Innovation Park land.

bigguy1231
Sep 14, 2010, 6:48 AM
As far as I am concerned it's just another dumb idea being floated by city hall staff. CP is not likely to sell any land to the city. If they do they will want a premium price for the land and they will want the city to pay the costs of moving the yard to another location within the city. We are looking at $25-$50 million for the site with the moving costs. Then there are the intangibles like site remediation, which considering it is an old rail yard could add huge costs to building on the site.

Council is not going to approve any site unless they know the extra costs associated with choosing the site. The time for picking an alternate site has run out and the WH will be submitted.

markbarbera
Sep 14, 2010, 11:39 AM
CP is willing to sell the land, in fact they have been wanting to wind down operations at this yard for several years now. CP approached the city to discuss selling the land, not the other way around, so there is an obvious willingness to sell. Using the $4 million price tag for the other CP yard the city recently bought as a comparison, we are probably looking at a $12 million price tag for this land.

Other existing yards in the area can easily accomodate the activities that still go on at the Aberdeen Yard, so a replacement yard will not be needed. Aberdeen is not utilized nearly as much as back in the day when there was significant manufacturing industry like Camco in the area. Nowadays its mainly warehousing and shunting that goes on there.

I think the strategy is to get funding from the feds and the province to cover additional land acquisition costs. They have already indicated a willingness to do more in order to make this work. It's a shame the city wasted so much Pan Am money acquiring WH lands needlessly, but I am sure that land can be repurposed in a manner better suited for city-building (IMO best use of WH lands would be for the proposed Mac/Mohawk downtown campus)

Seriously, WH as a Pan Am stadium site is dead. If it is submitted to Hostco as a site, we would end up with a 5000-seat white elephant. It should be a no-brainer that this should not be pursued. At this stage, it's Longwood or nothing.

padthai
Sep 14, 2010, 12:40 PM
Statement from McMaster (http://dailynews.mcmaster.ca/story.cfm?id=6945):

The August 31 decision by Hamilton City Council to include the McMaster Innovation Park (MIP) in its search for an appropriate site for a new stadium unexpectedly drew McMaster into this very important municipal issue. We were pleased to be able to meet with the City Manager and his colleagues to better understand the details of the City's interest in MIP and to be able to discuss our vision for the Innovation Park, the Park's success to date and our plans for future developments and job creation at MIP. We appreciate the professional, focused and sincere approach that was brought to these discussions.

We entered the discussions with the city with a clear set of principles including the need to maintain MIP's vision, visibility and exposure to the 403, and the need to achieve the full value for the premium site that reflected pending development plans. While our meetings were helpful and we kept our minds open to the potential of finding a solution that would work for everyone, our discussions have now ended. It is clear that the significant changes required to place a stadium in the park would not allow MIP to fulfill its vision in building economic opportunity for Hamilton.

McMaster and all three levels of government invested in MIP to bring innovation, investment and jobs to the city. That mission can be seen in action every day with more than 300 people currently working at the innovation park, the CANMET materials technology lab nearing completion, and investments in automotive technology, health research, education and healthcare in various stages of development. Together, these developments are at the heart of what makes an innovation park successful - partnerships, vision, innovation and commitment to a long-term plan.

McMaster values the tremendous public support we have received for our investment in MIP and our commitment to its future. We have been fortunate that the City of Hamilton has been a close partner and has helped to make the innovation park a success. Our discussions provided valuable insight into both partner's objectives. And while we were not able to find common ground on this issue, the partnership between the City and McMaster will continue to bring tremendous value and opportunity to Hamilton.

Sincerely,

Patrick Deane

President and Vice-Chancellor

padthai
Sep 14, 2010, 1:34 PM
The proposed bike path on the old CP rail line through the Ainslie Wood East area would be a great way for people to access this proposed site.

http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/17840D39-C225-42AF-91E4-7402D2D27EE0/0/communitylettermap.pdf

Does anyone have a status update on this trail? I heard some NIMBYs were holding it up and appeals are still ongoing. I wonder how a stadium there would affect this plan.

SteelTown
Sep 14, 2010, 2:07 PM
City manager Chris Murray said CP approached the city with an offer to launch discussions about the land.

"It was quite clear that we were pursuing MIP," Murray said. "It wasn't us approaching them."

It's the latest in a string of three sites the city has considered since the end of August: the west harbour, the MIP lands on the east side of Longwood, and the CP yard.

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/255742--stadium-twists-emerge-ahead-of-vote

oldcoote
Sep 14, 2010, 2:42 PM
The proposed bike path on the old CP rail line through the Ainslie Wood East area would be a great way for people to access this proposed site.

http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/17840D39-C225-42AF-91E4-7402D2D27EE0/0/communitylettermap.pdf

Does anyone have a status update on this trail? I heard some NIMBYs were holding it up and appeals are still ongoing. I wonder how a stadium there would affect this plan.

It's already usable as a bike path, although the yard is full of gravel. Agreed, this bridge would be a great link for foot and bike traffic from Westdale and Ainslie Wood.

padthai
Sep 14, 2010, 2:58 PM
It is usable, but at the edge of Stroud, just before the bridge heading east, is a big "Private Property, No Trespassing" sign. And you have to cycle through the yard past all the train cars to get to Studholme.

Would be great to have this completed. Hopefully the stadium plan accelerates this. The path was originally planned to be done by November.

SteelTown
Sep 14, 2010, 5:32 PM
Economic Benefits Associated with the Hamilton Tiger-Cats Football Club and Associated Companies

http://tiny.cc/qgx7i

mattgrande
Sep 14, 2010, 6:52 PM
Economic Benefits Associated with the Hamilton Tiger-Cats Football Club and Associated Companies

http://tiny.cc/qgx7i

Those numbers seem rather generous... Anyone want to explain to me how a Grey Cup directly create 977 person-years of jobs?

markbarbera
Sep 14, 2010, 8:43 PM
The impact of a modern Grey Cup on the host city is hard to visualize unless you actually attend a Grey Cup week, or talk to someone that has been there. A week's worth of hosting 50,000 people at area hotels, restaurants, bars, and shops, along with jobs that support the planning and execution of the actual events that make up Grey Cup week generate an incredible amount of business for the host city.

Are there reports that suggest different numbers, or is it just that the number doesn't sound right to you?

DHLawrence
Sep 14, 2010, 11:51 PM
If the yard is selected, could the line from Hunter Street to the yard itself be retained and used for Stadium-downtown shuttle trains? Might as well do something with the rush-hour trains during the off hours. One would assume that CP will acquiesce to further use of their tracks for game time.

mattgrande
Sep 15, 2010, 12:01 AM
The impact of a modern Grey Cup on the host city is hard to visualize unless you actually attend a Grey Cup week, or talk to someone that has been there. A week's worth of hosting 50,000 people at area hotels, restaurants, bars, and shops, along with jobs that support the planning and execution of the actual events that make up Grey Cup week generate an incredible amount of business for the host city.

Are there reports that suggest different numbers, or is it just that the number doesn't sound right to you?

It just sounds like a lot of people to me. Granted, I've got no business commenting on numbers like those, they just seemed high.

I suppose for a lot of people it is a week-long event, and that probably adds up.

bigguy1231
Sep 15, 2010, 6:37 AM
CP is willing to sell the land, in fact they have been wanting to wind down operations at this yard for several years now. CP approached the city to discuss selling the land, not the other way around, so there is an obvious willingness to sell. Using the $4 million price tag for the other CP yard the city recently bought as a comparison, we are probably looking at a $12 million price tag for this land.

They are not offering the whole yard, just 50 acres of unused land to the South of the existing yard. Land that has only 1 access to it, Beddoe Dr. a 2 lane road. There will still be a yard there in the future. It's needed to service Steelcare, CP's biggest customer in the area. Steelcare is not moving unless the city buys them out as well.

The $12 million sounds reasonable for the land. However, this has been a railyard for 110 years, what are the remediation costs going to be. They have been dumping oil and diesel fuel and other stuff into the ground there for most of those years.

It sounds to me like CP is just trying to get rid of the land to avoid any cleanup costs. Usually it's like pulling teeth trying to get a railway to give up land. This is just too easy.

Other existing yards in the area can easily accomodate the activities that still go on at the Aberdeen Yard, so a replacement yard will not be needed. Aberdeen is not utilized nearly as much as back in the day when there was significant manufacturing industry like Camco in the area. Nowadays its mainly warehousing and shunting that goes on there.

The only other yard they have in the area is at Gage and Cumberland near Gage Park. There are 2 ways to access it. Either by running trains through the city along the Gage tracks or through the Go terminal downtown. Both of those options are not acceptable. It will restrict even further GO access to the downtown terminal.

Seriously, WH as a Pan Am stadium site is dead. If it is submitted to Hostco as a site, we would end up with a 5000-seat white elephant. It should be a no-brainer that this should not be pursued. At this stage, it's Longwood or nothing.

It's not dead until council votes to take it off the table. The scenario I see happening is that the city is going to once again study another site, the CP yard. They are going to find out that it is going to cost way more than they are willing to pay and the site will be rejected. The city will then tell the Ticats that the only viable site is the WH, take it or leave it. If the Ticats don't get onboard then council will vote for no stadium in any location.

markbarbera
Sep 15, 2010, 11:28 AM
They are not offering the whole yard, just 50 acres of unused land to the South of the existing yard. Land that has only 1 access to it, Beddoe Dr. a 2 lane road. There will still be a yard there in the future. It's needed to service Steelcare, CP's biggest customer in the area. Steelcare is not moving unless the city buys them out as well.

Where are you getting that information? From my understanding the entire site is 50 acres in size, and it includes the Steelcare warehouse. I believe Steelcare is leasing the warehouse from CP so the city wouldn't need to buyout them either. CP would have to end the lease agreement with Steelcare under whatever leasing conditions they have with CP.

The land in question is indicated in the appendix to the staff report. It's the area marked "E", and it has frontage all along Aberdeen, with the exception of the small 1 acre parcel of land at the east end of the property (marked "F" in the map). The staff report and appendix can be found here (http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/C9CC1C4F-3CF8-480F-AFFB-FB760F63FB38/0/Sept14EDRMS_n93253_v1_7_1__CM09006h.pdf)

The $12 million sounds reasonable for the land. However, this has been a railyard for 110 years, what are the remediation costs going to be. They have been dumping oil and diesel fuel and other stuff into the ground there for most of those years.

The remediation costs would be significant, but arguably less than at the defunct WH site.

It sounds to me like CP is just trying to get rid of the land to avoid any cleanup costs. Usually it's like pulling teeth trying to get a railway to give up land. This is just too easy.
CP has been looking to wind down operations at this yard for years. Since the decline of industry in the Aberdeen/Longwood area, this has been seriously underutilized.


The only other yard they have in the area is at Gage and Cumberland near Gage Park. There are 2 ways to access it. Either by running trains through the city along the Gage tracks or through the Go terminal downtown. Both of those options are not acceptable. It will restrict even further GO access to the downtown terminal.

On the contrary, with shunting no longer taking place at Aberdeen yards, less freight cars will travel through this tunnel from the east for that purpose. Traffic will be reduced to through traffic only. Besides, all-day GO service is expanding along the CN line. There will be no impact to GO traffic serving Hamilton.


It's not dead until council votes to take it off the table. The scenario I see happening is that the city is going to once again study another site, the CP yard. They are going to find out that it is going to cost way more than they are willing to pay and the site will be rejected. The city will then tell the Ticats that the only viable site is the WH, take it or leave it. If the Ticats don't get onboard then council will vote for no stadium in any location.

That's just a long-winded way of saying WH is dead.

mattgrande
Sep 15, 2010, 2:47 PM
It just sounds like a lot of people to me. Granted, I've got no business commenting on numbers like those, they just seemed high.

I suppose for a lot of people it is a week-long event, and that probably adds up.

Looks like I wasn't way off the mark:
http://www.thespec.com/news/elections/article/256104--cats-impact-on-city-puffed-up-expert


Marvin Ryder said the $140 million per year in stimulus is puffed up by factors that don’t accurately reflect the true impact of the team. He estimates the football club generates $60 million annually.
...
The economic impact study by Atlus Group Economic Consulting included what it called the Bob Young Group of Companies in the study. Young runs the marketing company MRX in the same office complex where the Ticats are based.
...
Ryder said adding Young’s other companies, a potential pro soccer team and counting the impact of two Grey Cups in 10 years complicates the process of assessing economic impact. He called it quite difficult to estimate the impact of a soccer team that has not played a game and added counting two Grey Cups was generous in an eight-team league.

markbarbera
Sep 15, 2010, 4:59 PM
As reported by AM900 CHML:


Pan Am CEO applauds council decision
CHML
9/14/2010

Ian Troop, the CEO of the 2015 Pan Am games has reacted positively to the decision by Hamilton council.

They've given city staff the next few weeks to report back on the feasibility of the CP Rail Yards at Aberdeen and Longwood Roads.

"The City of Hamilton has made important progress today. The evolving partnership between the City and the Tiger-Cats and the selection of a site are positive steps forward. With these developments, Toronto 2015 will continue to support the City in its work to develop its stadium plan.

We must resolve the situation quickly to protect the integrity of our venue plan. As we've always said, we'll require a concrete business plan that will give us the confidence in making decisions for the good of the 2015 Games and for a long-time community legacy.

Hamilton is an important part of the Pan Am Games and Toronto 2015 will support the city's efforts in every way we can."

http://www.900chml.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocalGeneral/story.aspx?ID=1278874

LikeHamilton
Sep 15, 2010, 6:44 PM
I was talking to owner of Steelcare and as of yesterday, no one has called, approached or talked to him about his building. He has a long term lease for the property from CP Rail and had built, paid for and owns the building.

Jon Dalton
Sep 15, 2010, 7:39 PM
It's ok, the site won't fly anyways.

-no rapid transit
-no spinoff benefits for downtown
-poor / limited access
-loss of future employment land

None of that matters of course, but:

-no money for 25,000 seats
-no private sector funding
-no contribution from ticats
-no increased federal or provincial funding
-no will on council to increase City's funding

No stadium? Darn.

Now back to that city we were trying to run...

BrianE
Sep 15, 2010, 8:00 PM
If anybody else is having the same thoughts that I am and are wondering if they're alone. You're not.

I am officially OK with Hamilton pulling out the Pan Am Games and saying no stadium and saying no more Tiger Cats.

I was very excited about taking my family to a Soccer game or some of the Track and Field events in 2015. But I'm seeing now that the City just can not afford this event and the money would 100% be better off spent elsewhere.

As for the Tiger Cats. They are moving on, they don't care about or respect the core citizens of Hamilton. They can't afford to care or respect us, to be more accurate. We just don't throw our spending money around like folk in other municipalities.

I'm ok with this. I hope a lot of other people can come to terms with this new reality and focus our resources on something more productive. Maybe in 20 or 30 years the Cats will come back after we've had time to grow into a real City.

dennis1
Sep 15, 2010, 8:59 PM
I stand with you Brian E. I am tired of this crap.

matt602
Sep 15, 2010, 9:12 PM
I honestly don't care any more either, but lets be real. This whole thing hasn't really been about the Pan Am games for a long time now. It's just about building the Ti-Cats a new stadium, a problem that isn't going to go away if we abandon the Pan-Am thing all together.

highwater
Sep 15, 2010, 10:25 PM
Took the words right out of my mouth, Brian e.

markbarbera
Sep 15, 2010, 10:49 PM
Kudos to Chris Murray for keeping the Pan Am stadium proposal alive. He's been very pragmatic in his approach and has done an exceptional job at keeping the entire process together while the facts and circumstances have been in a constantly fluid state for nearly two months now. The next month is more of the same for him but he seems confident he can pull together the land and the funding required to pull this off. Even if in the end this doesn't pan out, he should be commended for the tireless dedication he has put into this effort.

bigguy1231
Sep 16, 2010, 6:37 AM
Where are you getting that information? From my understanding the entire site is 50 acres in size, and it includes the Steelcare warehouse. I believe Steelcare is leasing the warehouse from CP so the city wouldn't need to buyout them either. CP would have to end the lease agreement with Steelcare under whatever leasing conditions they have with CP.
I was mistaken on the size of the parcel. I misread the map. As for Steelcare they own the building and lease the land. In order for them to give it up they are going to have to be bought out. It is a relatively new building with more than likely a long term lease.


The remediation costs would be significant, but arguably less than at the defunct WH site..

The West Harbour remediation costs are estimated at $3-$5 million. I would suggest that you are looking at 3 to 4 times that to remediate an old rail yard.


CP has been looking to wind down operations at this yard for years. Since the decline of industry in the Aberdeen/Longwood area, this has been seriously underutilized. .

If they were looking to wind down operations there they wouldn't have entered into what I am assuming is a long term lease with Steelcare. Without the railyard that facility would be useless to Steelcare who relies on the railway to deliver product to them.

On the contrary, with shunting no longer taking place at Aberdeen yards, less freight cars will travel through this tunnel from the east for that purpose. Traffic will be reduced to through traffic only. Besides, all-day GO service is expanding along the CN line. There will be no impact to GO traffic serving Hamilton. .

No they will be shunting those trains at the yard they have at Gage and Cumberland. I would bet that more CP trains head East towards Toronto than towards the border. That would mean that alot of the trains that didn't go through the Hunter station before because of the Aberdeen yard will now have to use that corridor. That is the only East- West corridor CP has in this city.


That's just a long-winded way of saying WH is dead.

It's not dead. If it's the only option presented to the Ticats at the end of the day, they may finally realize that they have no choice but to accept it or risk losing a place to play. It's not like other city's are fighting for a chance to spend taxpayers money to build a stadium to attract them. Like I have said over and over, beggers can't be choosers.

SteelTown
Sep 16, 2010, 11:11 AM
Province open to stadium boost

THE HAMILTON SPECTATOR
Emma Reilly
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/256265--province-open-to-stadium-boost

Hamilton's cabinet minister says the province is "very interested" in considering the city's request for more funding to build a bigger stadium.

"We would certainly consider a request from the city," MPP Sophia Aggelonitis said yesterday. "We are willing to meet at any time. We are hopeful there's going to be willingness from the federal government, as well."

The city is asking the senior levels of government to beef up their funding to build a 25,000-seat stadium, a venue large enough to house the Tiger-Cats after the Pan Am Games in 2015.

Currently, the funding offered by the city and senior levels of government will only build a 15,000-seat stadium, which isn't large enough to house a professional football team.

Aggelonitis's statement is good news for the city as it continues to negotiate with the upper levels of government, as the extra $50 million is crucial to the long-term sustainability of the stadium.

Without the extra money to build a larger venue, city manager Chris Murray says it would be better to scrap the stadium altogether than build a venue that can't be used after the Games.

Aggelonitis's statement is the first time the province has indicated it would be open to spending more than the approximately $28 million it has already pledged to the project.

There was no discussion about the stadium issue at yesterday's council meeting, when council ratified its decision to move forward with the CP rail site at Longwood Road and Aberdeen Avenue.

But outside of the meeting, Councillor Terry Whitehead said Aggelonitis' overture is "a start."

"We still need the federal government to step up to the plate," he said. "I've heard the feds are a little cooler."

However, Councillor Bob Bratina says he believes the upper levels of government are prepared to offer up more money, but the inability to reach a deal with the Cats was "putting roadblocks in the way.

"I think the federal government and the provincial government are trying their darndest to come up with a solution so that they can give us money because they want to."

Mayor Fred Eisenberger said Aggelonitis' statement yesterday is consistent with the messages the city has been getting from the province behind closed doors.

"That's the kind of message we've received, that they're prepared to be helpful," he said.

"But we've never been able to get to what helpful means in dollars and cents."

Eisenberger agreed with Whitehead that though the province may be sending positive signals, the federal side is "a whole different matter."

MP David Sweet did not respond to a request for comment yesterday.

padthai
Sep 16, 2010, 2:30 PM
I want to make sure I have the math right...below is a summary with a few projections and big assumptions. Please correct me where wrong/inaccurate...

Projected Cost
$102M - cost for good-quality 15,000 seat stadium (or crappier quality 22,000 seat stadium)
$50M - gap to boost stadium to 25,000 seats to suit Ti-Cats/CFL requirements (low-end was $25M for this, but since when is it ever the low projection)
$9M - land costs at CP site (high-end Spec projection)
$9M - land remediation (have heard it will be a lot more than West Harbour which was $3M)
$5M - Steelcare relocation costs (my projection - not sure at all what this would cost)
$15M - road/infrastructure upgrades (again, my projection - recall East Mountain infrastructure cost was ~$55M)
$190M - TOTAL

Pledged Support
$45M - City of Hamilton (am i correct that this does not include the Future Fund? or does it?)
$28.5M - Federal Gov't
$28.5M - Provincial Gov't
Estimated Other Support - Gap - $88M
$15M - Ticats (Should be similar to what he pledged to EM, since he's on board)
$25M - City of Hamilton Future Fund (if my assumption above is right?)
$24M - Federal Gov't (please?)
$24M - Provincial Gov't (pretty please?)
$190M - TOTAL

Thoughts?

SteelTown
Sep 16, 2010, 2:40 PM
You'll likely hear about a ticket surcharge for the cost of stadium, perhaps an extra $2 to $5 per ticket.

padthai
Sep 16, 2010, 2:50 PM
Agreed. I think that will still be a drop in the bucket for the gap in funding though. Even at $5/ticket x 25,000 seats x 10 games/year, that's only $1.25M/yr.

mattgrande
Sep 16, 2010, 3:11 PM
Padthai, I was under the impression that Hamilton's $45M will be coming from the Future Fund, but I can't find anything to back that up.

I'd really like to hear some sort of funding from the Ti-Cats. So far, they're pledging $0 towards this thing, and we're building this thing, let's face it, 100% for the Ti-Cats. The three levels of government are already spending $Texas for this thing, and that doesn't even get into the costs off all these reports, studies, and negotiations.

bluevue
Sep 16, 2010, 7:36 PM
Agreed. We haven't heard what Young is bringing for the ti-cats and the other legacy tenant (to be) his USL team. I think the soccer team will bring more to the stadium than the cats on a yearly basis....leaving out Grey Cups years of course. I agree we don't have all the costs, but by this point in the East Stadium talks we at least had a number from him, in addition to what he would put down at WH to also incorportate into the vision. If we are including Soccer as a legacy tenant, we should also be asking what are they bringing to the table. That said....there is no team as of yet, so I can understand the hesitation, but it is not only the cats to be considered here. Young has a lock on the franchise rights for Hamilton does he not?

Janbe
Sep 17, 2010, 3:12 AM
I believe an agreement will be reached. All parties are on board, thing still need to be ironed out.

SteelTown
Sep 17, 2010, 11:28 AM
No more money for Hamilton stadium, Ottawa says

By John Kernaghan
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/256511--no-more-money-for-hamilton-stadium-ottawa-says

The sharp backlash against the possibility of up to $180 million in federal money for a Quebec City hockey rink to host a National Hockey League team is behind the federal sports minister rejecting more money for a Pan Am stadium as home to the Tiger-Cats.

That’s the view of a source close to Pan Am stadium negotiations.

“It would just make the Quebec situation worse,” the source said.

In a media report yesterday, Gary Lunn, Minister of State for Sports, said Ottawa would not provide more money to boost Hamilton’s $102-million, 15,000-seat stadium.

That followed Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s statement that homes for pro sports team should be a private-sector endeavour.

Lunn did suggest in media reports that the Pan Am Games host corporation could redistribute the $500 million Ottawa has pledged to the 2015 Games to allow more for Hamilton’s proposed stadium.

But Hostco already faces more costs with track and field, the Games premier event, moved from Hamilton to York University, which will need an expanded stadium.

Lunn said in reports that the onus was on the private sector in Hamilton to come up with a 25,000-seat stadium for the Tiger-Cats.

mattgrande
Sep 17, 2010, 12:18 PM
No more money for Hamilton stadium, Ottawa says

Lunn said in reports that the onus was on the private sector in Hamilton to come up with a 25,000-seat stadium for the Tiger-Cats.

Pan American Stadium | ? | ? | Approved --> Pan American Stadium | ? | ? | Cancelled

fenwick16
Sep 17, 2010, 12:36 PM
What are the options for football in Hamilton if little to no money is being contributed by the Hamilton Tiger-Cats? Which of these are viable?

1) A scaled back 25,000 seat non-iconic stadium (if the large parking garage were eliminated and it was located close to existing parking and public transit) This could be a good stadium but nothing extravagant.
2) Spending money to renovate Ivor Wynne Stadium (could it be used for the Pan-Am Games?). A complete renovation and make-over could do wonders.

Maybe Ivor Wynne Stadium should be preserved.

SteelTown
Sep 17, 2010, 1:16 PM
Mr. Lunn, the federal Sports Minister, said Ottawa will not increase its Pan Am Games contribution beyond the $500-million already promised, but did not rule out discussing an increase in the stadium’s share of the money.

“I think it’s important that they stay within the $500-million,” he said in an interview. “If they’re looking at issues to try to increase the stadium for the Ti-Cats, I think that’s great. But for the funding, it’s really important that the private sector step up to the table to meet those funding demands... We have a policy that we don’t, as a rule, build sports infrastructure for professional sports teams.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/no-extra-money-for-hamilton-stadium-gary-lunn-says/article1711007/

mattgrande
Sep 17, 2010, 2:36 PM
What are the options for football in Hamilton if little to no money is being contributed by the Hamilton Tiger-Cats? Which of these are viable?

1) A scaled back 25,000 seat non-iconic stadium (if the large parking garage were eliminated and it was located close to existing parking and public transit) This could be a good stadium but nothing extravagant.
2) Spending money to renovate Ivor Wynne Stadium (could it be used for the Pan-Am Games?). A complete renovation and make-over could do wonders.

Maybe Ivor Wynne Stadium should be preserved.

Way-back-when Hostco said they wouldn't support an Ivor Wynne renovation because the funds are supposed to be for building new sports infrastructure. Things may have changed now, who knows?

SteelTown
Sep 17, 2010, 4:16 PM
Miles to go on stadium: Bob Young

Paul Morse
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/sports/article/256728--miles-to-go-on-stadium-bob-young

Hamilton Tiger-Cats owner Bob Young says the latest stadium site under consideration -- the rail shunting yard at Longwood -- is exciting, but that there's still a long way to go to make it happen.

"While I'm not as pessimistic as I was three weeks ago, I'm certainly far from optimistic, and I share council's frustration and disappointment with the lack of speed on the exercise," Young said this morning at Hillfield-Strathallan College where he was honored as this year's alumni of distinction.

He said he had great faith in city manager Chris Murray's ability to make things happen.

Young said the city and Ticats have to work with the federal and province to figure out if this particular location is the right location.

"The east Mountain would have worked, and it would appear that, without doing all the homework on remediation and many other things, it would appear that the rail yards at Longwood would work."

But Young warned that there is still a very real possibility that he might pull the Ticats out of Hamilton.

"That's where we were three weeks ago -- we were done. The city had made its commitment to the west harbour, a location that wouldn't work for running a successful sports marketing operation.

"So we were out talking with every other municipality that might be able to help us. But none of those conversations were overly optimistic either," he said.

Young said the rail yards "sure looks good to me ... it's 50 acres that's right on a highway, so it has all the access we need, all the city building requirements that the city has expressed that they've wanted to invest in.

One just has to drive around that rail shunting yard to realize this is one of the most exciting pieces of property in the city, he said.

"If the commitment of the city and council is that they really want to see the investment made in downtown Hamilton, this is a location that ticks both boxes for stadium in terms of access and accessibility.

"And it appears to work for the city's goal for investment downtown."

mishap
Sep 18, 2010, 1:37 AM
Padthai, I was under the impression that Hamilton's $45M will be coming from the Future Fund, but I can't find anything to back that up.
The city's money is very likely coming from the Future Fund. The big question is whether or not they intend to pay it back over time. At least one suggestion was made by a councillor that they treat it as a grant as opposed to a loan, ie. free money. If that's the case, we can't scream that the Ticats aren't offering any money when the city isn't.

The city originally did not want a stadium in the West Harbour area. Now that they're looking at a potentially free building, why not change that amphitheatre to a staduim, and get as many seats in there as possible?

SteelTown
Sep 27, 2010, 11:12 PM
I'm getting the impression that Bob Young is gearing up for an announcement for their funding contribution towards the stadium.

realcity
Sep 28, 2010, 4:52 AM
I'm getting the impression that this forum has jumped the shark

highwater
Sep 28, 2010, 3:45 PM
I'm getting the impression that Bob Young is gearing up for an announcement for their funding contribution towards the stadium.

I'd be very surprised. More like he's announcing he's selling the team.

mattgrande
Sep 28, 2010, 9:07 PM
I'd be very surprised. More like he's announcing he's selling the team.

I'll give him fifty bucks.

Honest question, what are the odds of a community ownership style setup?

matt602
Sep 28, 2010, 9:43 PM
I'm getting the impression that this forum has jumped the shark

:cheers: this.

SteelTown
Sep 28, 2010, 10:16 PM
http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/921456FD-8FA6-4C2E-B00E-9D421F3F07E2/0/Sept29EDRMS_n94197_v1_CMO9006i.pdf

That the CP Rail yard at Aberdeen and Longwood be forwarded to Hostco as the venue location, agreed to by the City of Hamilton and the Hamilton Tiger-Cats, for the new Pan Am Stadium.

Complete Stadium use negotiations and funding arrangements with the Hamilton Tiger-Cats by September 30, 2010

dennis1
Sep 28, 2010, 10:33 PM
I'll give him fifty bucks.

Honest question, what are the odds of a community ownership style setup?

That was already tried and it failed.

mattgrande
Sep 29, 2010, 1:13 AM
http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/921456FD-8FA6-4C2E-B00E-9D421F3F07E2/0/Sept29EDRMS_n94197_v1_CMO9006i.pdf

That the CP Rail yard at Aberdeen and Longwood be forwarded to Hostco as the venue location, agreed to by the City of Hamilton and the Hamilton Tiger-Cats, for the new Pan Am Stadium.

Complete Stadium use negotiations and funding arrangements with the Hamilton Tiger-Cats by September 30, 2010

The second line is this:
That the Province of Ontario and the Federal Government, including P3
Canada, be formally requested to provide sufficient additional funding to expand the current proposed 15,000 seat Pan Am Stadium to a 25,000 seat facility

I can't say I support that.

EDIT UPON FURTHER READING:

That the City of Hamilton request the Ministry of Transportation to review traffic impacts on Aberdeen Avenue and request a review of the potential to widen the
exit and entrance by adding two vehicle lanes in each direction and review the Main Street West interchange and Longwood Road;

I don't see a possible way to expand Aberdeen from four to eight lanes. There are houses on both sides, pretty much right at the road, before you get to Dundurn.

The Tiger-Cats have indicated a willingness to purchase part of the CP property provided that the lands purchased would be available for development purposes. The lands viewed in this regard would not include the stadium area or parking areas for the stadium.

So the money's not going to the stadium. It's going to whatever the Ti-Cats want as part of their "entertainment district."

CP Rail representatives have indicated that the price of the land will include a price per acre as well as allowances for the relocation of tenants... The relocation estimates provided by CP Rail are significant.

That certainly doesn't sound promising.

markbarbera
Sep 29, 2010, 11:39 AM
The widening of Aberdeen would be to handle additional traffic coming from the highway to the site and would not be the entire stretch of Aberdeen, likely just as far east as the Frid extension or possibly Dundurn. And two additional lanes in either direction is overkill IMO. I hope they are looking at Longwood as well, as this will likely be a significant entry and egress route link to Main and King.

According to Dreschel's article in today's Spec (http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/262750--big-progress-on-stadium-talks), funding is falling into place. Apparently the Province is willing to put more towards stadium expansion and land acquisition/remediation costs, and the Ticats have their $15 mil contribution for a portion of the land for sports precinct development, along with a commitment to cover operating expenses at the new stadium (similar to their EM proposal).

This may have been pulled from the fire, but let's see how the COW meeting goes today.

mattgrande
Sep 29, 2010, 2:59 PM
According to Dreschel's article in today's Spec (http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/262750--big-progress-on-stadium-talks), funding is falling into place. Apparently the Province is willing to put more towards stadium expansion and land acquisition/remediation costs, and the Ticats have their $15 mil contribution for a portion of the land for sports precinct development, along with a commitment to cover operating expenses at the new stadium (similar to their EM proposal).

From The Article:
"But that only buys a 15,000 to 20,000 seat facility while the Ticats need a 25,000-seater to replace the aging Ivor Wynne. That leaves a shortfall of $25 million to $50 million, not to forget the additional cost of purchasing and cleaning up the CP lands."

That sounds like one hell of a shortfall. I'd much rather see the Ti-Cats $15m going to the Stadium than the precinct.

And oh wow, the Ti-Cats are willing to use the naming rights to cover operating expenses... which are theirs to cover.

The situation hasn't changed at all. We have the Ti-Cats asking for a brand new stadium, and they're not willing to put a damn dime towards it.

mishap
Sep 29, 2010, 3:47 PM
The situation hasn't changed at all. We have the Ti-Cats asking for a brand new stadium, and they're not willing to put a damn dime towards it.
Neither is the City, so you'd think they'd be getting along better.

Seriously though, this is the posturing part where everybody finds out just how much they can get before they finally reach into their own pockets. The Cats will come up with something, and so will the City. I hope so, anyway.

SteelTown
Sep 29, 2010, 11:24 PM
The cost of constructing the stadium is estimated to be $160-mil. Does NOT include cost of buying CP lands.

The current funding shortfall is $34.7-million for the CP yard lands stadium proposal.

Rossini is showing a slide that states $15-mil of funding shortfall could be found from Ivor Wynne develop, ticket surcharge, and exist budg

$5-mil from Ivor Wynne district, $5-mil from ticket surcharge, and $5-mil from existing budget

Funding shortfall for velodrome is currently estimated to be about $14-mil

SteelTown
Sep 30, 2010, 11:30 AM
Bare-bones stadium for Hamilton, says manager

Emma Reilly
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/263168--bare-bones-stadium-for-hamilton-says-manager

The city's top bureaucrat is warning councillors that Hamilton can only afford to build a bare-bones, “utilitarian” stadium to host the Pan Am Games.

“It's not going to be a Taj Mahal,” said city manager Chris Murray. “There's a very real need for us to be very practical in the design of the stadium.”

According to new figures presented to council Wednesday, a new stadium will cost about $160 million in 2012 dollars—and the available funding is falling $35-million short of that amount.

That doesn't include the costs of land acquisition and remediation, figures which are not available to the public.

The financial pressures mean Hamilton will likely build a stadium that looks more like Toronto's BMO Field than the Rogers Centre.

Currently, with the $125 million of public funding on the table, it's “within grasp” to build a pared-down 22,000-seat stadium, Murray says.

Previously, the city said it could only build a 15,000-seat stadium with that funding, a venue large enough to host the Games but too small to house the Tiger-Cats. The city is also counting on the province to help pick up some of the extra cost.

Wednesday's financial update shed new light on the stadium's tangled financial negotiations between the city and the Cats. Both sides have been discussing their contributions for months—and as the stadium site has shifted, so have the Cats' promises of funding.

The team's most recent offer lies between their financial commitments to the west harbour site—where they promised nothing—and their preferred site at the east Mountain, where team owner Bob Young said he would commit $74 million, including $15 million toward the capital costs of the stadium.

For the stadium at the CP lands near Longwood and Aberdeen, Cats president Scott Mitchell says the team is ready to buy between 10 and 20 acres of land and develop it, possibly with a hotel. The team would also take on the remediation costs of that patch of land and take on the day-to-day operating costs of the stadium. But the team hasn't committed any funding to building the stadium itself.

They also have claimed the proceeds of the naming rights for the stadium, an important slice of revenue that was expected to bring in $7.5 million.

Council will vote on the stadium site Oct. 12.

SteelTown
Sep 30, 2010, 1:09 PM
Our standards must be really high compared to Toronto.

BMO Field cost $62.5 million for 20,500 seats. Meaning $3195.12 per seat.

Pan Am Stadium cost $160 million for 22,000 seats. Meaning $7272.72 per seat. Almost doubled.

mattgrande
Sep 30, 2010, 1:25 PM
I don't see how that can possibly be considered "within grasp."

We still need:
- $35m to just build the stadium
- Untold millions to buy the land
- Untold millions to remediate the land
- Untold millions to move the companies that currently occupy the land

That's one hell of a funding gap.

SteelTown
Sep 30, 2010, 1:44 PM
Isn't the Ti Cats going to buy the land?

highwater
Sep 30, 2010, 2:35 PM
No. They're only going to by 15 acres next to the stadium to build a hotel and/or entertainment district on. They are not providing any funding whatsoever for the stadium or parking.

markbarbera
Sep 30, 2010, 2:54 PM
The total cost associated with acquiring the land (land purchase, remediation, tenant relocation) is likely to come in at $12 million.

The Ticats will be buying up 10-15 acres of the overall property and will be covering the remediation of that part of the property. Their capital contribution to the stadium itself has not yet been finalized - won't be until the province and feds have quantified what additional funds they will be bringing to the table.

padthai
Sep 30, 2010, 6:20 PM
I wish they gave some sense of the additional funds needed to build a high-quality, aesthetically-pleasing, 25,000-seat stadium.

If the plan is for a long legacy use, why are we only aiming for bare-bones? At least if we knew what the total cost of that was, we could be asking for more.

My only concern is doing things on the cheap and being stuck with an ugly (http://football.ballparks.com/CFL/Hamilton/front.jpg), poor quality (http://mtimages.cstv.com/extrainnings/OSUfield.jpg) stadium that we can't be proud of.

But I also see our financial situation, and getting just to the bare bones will take some effort. I'll submit a bid for naming rights: "Padthai Field." Do they take debit?

markbarbera
Sep 30, 2010, 8:18 PM
If additional funding falls short of what's required to do up a proper 25,000-seat stadium, then build it barebones for PanAm, then leverage a future successful Commonwealth Games bid to improve and expand seating. Of course, that's assuming any future sporting event committee would consider Hamilton as a host after this fiasco...

mattgrande
Oct 1, 2010, 4:07 AM
Stadium parking goes from pillar to footnote (http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/263522--stadium-parking-goes-from-pillar-to-footnote)

Can someone explain to me why, in the days of Google Maps and GPS systems, highway visibility is important?

Or how about how the West Harbour means losing millions no matter what, while the CP lands (only 4km away) means being profitable while also cover operating costs?

EDIT: Another question. If the TiCats are buying the lands for the adjacent businesses, who will be building them and operating them? Are the TiCats going to be operating the convention centre / hotel / whatever else?

bigguy1231
Oct 1, 2010, 6:19 AM
It aint happening.

Council is not going to approve this site . The cost of the site will be prohibitive , especially with the Ticats and their imaginary friends in the business community not putting up a dime of their own money for the stadium. There will be no stadium, unless the Ticats decide that the West Harbour is better than nothing.

markbarbera
Oct 1, 2010, 10:12 AM
If council truly feels this is too expensive, there will be no stadium at any location. The $35 million financing shortfall is a reality for any site.

SteelTown
Oct 1, 2010, 11:19 AM
Ticats need to pay more for stadium: Ottawa

Andrew Dreschel

The federal government wants to see the deadline for stadium talks extended and more money from the Ticats and other private sector partners on the table.

That’s the key message city manager Chris Murray took away from a face-to-face meeting with Gary Lunn, minister of state for sport.

Murray met with Lunn for more than an hour Wednesday to pitch the city’s request for more federal money to bridge the funding gap for a stadium at the CP rail yard on Aberdeen.

He says Lunn has agreed to ask Hostco, organizers of the Pan Am Games, to extend the Oct. 12 deadline to give the city more time to put together a deal for the 53-acre CP site.

“There is recognition that more time is needed and more money is needed, “ Murray said in an interview.

According to Murray, the length of the deadline extension was not discussed but Lunn would intervene “sooner rather than later.”

He says the city will also ask the province, which has already agreed to kick in extra stadium money, to add their voices to the appeal.

Since Hostco is bankrolled by both Ottawa and Queen’s Park, chances are good the deadline will be extended, probably until well after the Oct. 25 municipal election.

That would not only give some much-needed breathing space for negotiations, it would be a huge political benefit for sitting councillors since they would not have to decide on the controversial issue before voters go to the polls.

Meanwhile, Murray says the feds are willing to continue discussing the city’s funding request, but they also want to see more “chairs around the table.”

.........................

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/263556--ticats-need-to-pay-more-for-stadium-ottawa

SteelTown
Oct 1, 2010, 2:50 PM
Pan Am boss praises city

John Kernaghan
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/263412--pan-am-boss-praises-city

Hamilton’s “rocky progress” on a critical piece of the Games footprint has made a commendable stride forward, says Pan Am boss Ian Troop.

But any further delays on the 2015 soccer facility after several missed deadlines would be risky business, he said.

“Our people are concerned that if this was pushed into the new year we’ll be up against it and have a high risk of not being able to deliver for test events in 2014 and maybe not even for late spring of 2015,” HostCo CEO Ian Troop said. “That puts us in pretty dire straits.”

He was speaking in a media teleconference Thursday following a Toronto 2015 board meeting in which he laid out on-time progress on the two other major Games projects, the athletes’ village and the aquatic centre in Scarborough.

Troop’s comments follow a letter from him to city manager Chris Murray stressing the west-end CP property the city and the Tiger-Cats football team are hoping to land must be remediated and shovel-ready by April 2012.

The city is facing an Oct. 12 deadline, the latest following several extensions, to make a stadium commitment. That’s the last council meeting before the Oct. 25 municipal election.

Troop said the recent accord between Hamilton and the football club is “landmark progress” and said the more utilitarian stadium concept contemplated, something in the mould of Toronto’s BMO Field, would be fine with the Games’ organizing committee.

The city and the Tiger-Cats still have to find a way to make up a $35-million funding gap on the stadium and also purchase land, pay for relocation of some businesses and clean up the rail yards site. That could cost between $20 million and $30 million.

The price of a 25,000-seat stadium in 2012 dollars is $160 million but the money committed by all levels of government is $125 million.

The Tiger-Cats have not made a financial commitment to date but are prepared to buy between 15 and 20 acres adjacent to the stadium site to develop and reluctantly agreed to manage the facility.

In another vein, Troop laughed off criticism of Toronto 2015’s new logo, a take on aboriginal art that shows an athlete and a ball and forms a T and O, a nod to Toronto’s nickname.

“Everyone is an art critic. I’m sure everyone will come to love it.”

In a separate interview, board chair Roger Garland said Wednesday’s brand launch was a key moment in terms of going after sponsors.

“It’s important to have this visibility now as we go out to the market and develop $150 million in revenue streams we have in our budget.”

Garland pointed out the success sponsors enjoyed in Vancouver for the Winter Games this year will benefit the Pan Ams.

“Some of the sponsors who took a leap of faith in Vancouver were by and large pleased with the results. Now I think they see another opportunity in five years in a much larger market.”

matt602
Oct 1, 2010, 9:25 PM
Stadium parking goes from pillar to footnote (http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/263522--stadium-parking-goes-from-pillar-to-footnote)

Can someone explain to me why, in the days of Google Maps and GPS systems, highway visibility is important?



It's not nearly as much about transportation as it is about making sure the thousands of cars that pass each day on the highway see the stadium, banners and advertisements. Notice how when major highways cross through urban areas, theres a sea of giant, tall billboards everywhere? Companies pay out the ass for that exposure. The ones along the Gardiner are probably VERY expensive to get space on.

I don't really agree that it should be as much of a priority as it is, but alas. It also ties into the fact that most highways don't actually pass through urban areas but rather skirt along suburban areas where there is usually giant swaths of greenfield to develop (for a stadium, as example).

bigguy1231
Oct 1, 2010, 9:35 PM
If council truly feels this is too expensive, there will be no stadium at any location. The $35 million financing shortfall is a reality for any site.

It will be more like $60-$70 million if the CP site is chosen. The Steelcare building alone is worth $20 million and they would have to be relocated.

markbarbera
Oct 1, 2010, 10:47 PM
The total costs associated with acquiring the CP land are estimated to be between $12 and 20 million, including the property Steelcare leases.

Here's a cost-savings idea that could be a fallback should all the outstanding financing not be realized before the October 12th deadline - phase the construction. Design the stadium to be twin grandstands on either side of the playing field and lay the foundation accordingly. Use all secured financing to build a permanent grandstand on one side of the field that will house the press box, luxury boxes and the players facilities. Place temporary seating on the opposite side and plan to upgrade to a permanent grandstand once additional funding is secured.

Of course this is just a plan B scenario. I've got a feeling the financing shortfall will soon be resolved. There's a genuine willingness from all parties to make this happen.

realcity
Oct 1, 2010, 11:24 PM
I trying to determine how many deadlines have we had? 5 or 6? including the Oct 12 one? Anyone know?

Now we're looking at another deadline after the election?

I thought council's job was to make decisions?

Now I'm wondering why our Council had such an important factor in determining this location. I didn't once read about Toronto's city council struggling with PanAm events. Eg. The track and field games went straight to York, no Toronto council debates, it just went there .... i don't recall Toronto Council arguing over that? Shouldn't this process have been between City Management and Hostco? Obviously council has no idea about city planning or running a business. I'm not sure what they do anymore, if it's not to make decisions.

SteelTown
Oct 1, 2010, 11:47 PM
City of Toronto is paying $0 for the track and field event.

mattgrande
Oct 2, 2010, 11:38 PM
City of Toronto is paying $0 for the track and field event.

Where's the money coming from? Feds? York U?

bigguy1231
Oct 3, 2010, 2:04 AM
City of Toronto is paying $0 for the track and field event.

Because it's Toronto. As usual we have to jump through hoops to get anything out of the upper levels of government.

I have been asking all along why are we being forced to follow a different standard than other cities when it comes to games funding or for that matter facilities funding.

All other cities that have held games were told they had to have legacy's. But none were told they had to cater to the needs of a professional sports team. Funding was also on the basis of each level providing 1/3 of the funding. We are paying 45% and maybe more. Why are our politicians not questioning this arrangement.

markbarbera
Oct 3, 2010, 12:04 PM
I am not sure where the idea of 1/3 funding from each level of government comes from, but it isn't in place for any Pan Am facilities that I know of.

The funding formula for the track stadium are the same as for all other facilities, except in this case it is the university in partnership with Hostco rather than a municipality. York University is covering 44% of the cost of the new facility, and the university will assume full ownership of the facilities when competed. This is practically the same funding formula for all new facilities being built for the Pan Am Games, including Hamilton's Pan Am stadium.

At the end of the day, the deed for Hamilton's Pan Am Stadium will be handed to the city when completed, even though the city is providing less than half the cost to build the stadium. In this sense of the arrangement, Hamilton certainly is not being hard done by at all.

bigguy1231
Oct 3, 2010, 10:14 PM
I am not sure where the idea of 1/3 funding from each level of government comes from, but it isn't in place for any Pan Am facilities that I know of.

The funding formula for the track stadium are the same as for all other facilities, except in this case it is the university in partnership with Hostco rather than a municipality. York University is covering 44% of the cost of the new facility, and the university will assume full ownership of the facilities when competed. This is practically the same funding formula for all new facilities being built for the Pan Am Games, including Hamilton's Pan Am stadium.

At the end of the day, the deed for Hamilton's Pan Am Stadium will be handed to the city when completed, even though the city is providing less than half the cost to build the stadium. In this sense of the arrangement, Hamilton certainly is not being hard done by at all.

Where in my post did I say for this Pan Am games. I was refering to all previous international games hosted in this country. The formula has always been 1/3 for each level of government. As I have said many times before your comprehension skills are seriously lacking. Do a little research.

The most recent games in Vancouver had the 1/3 formula and that didn't include the cost over runs on security that were covered by the feds. The same formula also applied to Calgary for the Olympics and Edmonton and Victoria for the Commonwealth games. That has always been the standard. If you look into it it is still the standard with these Pan Ams. The difference is that standard isn't being applied to this city. 45% is not 33%. Toronto isn't even contributing what we are and they are the host city where the bulk of the money is being spent.

markbarbera
Oct 4, 2010, 11:39 AM
Bigguy you advising anyone to do research is a bit rich coming from you. A review of this and other thread in this SSP betray an obvious lack of research on your part, not to mention a certain lack of social skills.

I think you are confusing funding commitments from governments with budget allocations for specific venues by the organizing committee. The city's additional costs associated specifically with the stadium is to meet the city's requirments post-Games, which are not an actual requirements for the Games itself. And they do not represent the full investment being made by all levels of government in Hamilton in order to host all the events planned for the area.

For the record, the city has committed $60 million to Pan Am thus far while there has been $150-$200 million in federal and provincial investment committments in the Hamilton area for Pan Am Games, I'd hardly say the overall funding ratio is skewed unfairly against the city.

mattgrande
Oct 6, 2010, 3:19 PM
Bob Young says a whole lot of nothing: http://www.ticats.ca/article/caretaker-stadium-update-october-5

SteelTown
Oct 7, 2010, 1:39 AM
‘We will’ invest in new stadium, says Tiger-Cats owner Bob Young

John Kernaghan
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/265348--we-will-invest-in-new-stadium-says-tiger-cats-owner-bob-young

The Tiger-Cats and some minor partners are ready to invest in the Pan Am stadium and work with the city to develop revenue streams to make it viable.

Football club owner Bob Young promised to step up with some money in a letter on www.ticats.ca. And sources close to Pan Am talks said he will bring some smaller investors to the table, too.

“We can, and we will be, investing in the new stadium,” Young wrote, adding the Ticats want to help create enough economic activity to justify the city’s investment.

He did not detail how much the football club would contribute or if that contribution is tied to naming rights or other revenue sources. To this point, the club had offered only to buy and develop land adjacent to the stadium.

A spokesperson for city manager Chris Murray, who has led stadium negotiations, said the football club’s financial participation and management obligations in running the stadium will be outlined to city council next Tuesday.

Talks are on schedule and all the parties are working to make the stadium project happen, the spokesperson said.

“Bob Young has gone from being not optimistic to optimistic,” said Councillor Lloyd Ferguson. “That and agreement on a site are two positive developments.”

But he warned getting the long-simmering stadium issue to the finish line is still challenged by a large funding gap.

Ferguson said the city can’t contribute more and needs help from the federal government and Toronto 2015 host corporation.

A source close to the Pan Am planning said Young’s commitment to chip in on the stadium is a big step forward, adding Ottawa is expected to come up with some money, too.

The source said Young is taking another leap in faith in putting money into the stadium after substantial investments in the Ticats and his sports marketing business MRX.

“This site would be his third choice, after Aldershot and Confederation Park.”

The promise of money follows the call last week from the federal government for the football club and other private-sector parties to help finance a stadium that has grown in cost from early projections.

The funding gap between the $125 million three levels of government would provide and a bare-bones 25,000-seat stadium is $35 million. And that doesn’t include land acquisition, remediation and tenant relocation.

One positive, a source said, is that land cleanup costs won’t be as high as feared.

City council is scheduled to consider the stadium Tuesday to meet a HostCo deadline.

But the federal government is expected to ask for another deadline extension so that a new council following the municipal election can vote on the stadium proposal.

SteelTown
Oct 8, 2010, 10:25 PM
Hamilton has three stadium options

John Kernaghan
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/265997--hamilton-has-three-stadium-options

Hamilton has two backup options if the west-end stadium proposal fails.

The city has asked the Pan Am Games organizing committee to confirm soccer for the 2015 Games based on its ability to deliver a facility in one of three ways.

Councillor Brian McHattie says city manager Chris Murray laid out the options to Games organizers.

They are:

• A 25,000-seat stadium for Games soccer and the Tiger-Cats, the legacy partner

• A refurbished Ivor Wynne Stadium

• McMaster’s Ron Joyce Stadium with 8,000 temporary seats added to provide a 15,000-seat venue

Murray’s office did not confirm this three-pronged approach Friday afternoon.

McHattie said the options let the city prepare for the possible failure of the west-end CP lands as a stadium site.

He will move Tuesday at a committee of the whole meeting that if the site fails, the city commit to the original west harbour site, and if the Tiger-Cats won’t go there, the city put $20 million toward renovating Ivor Wynne Stadium.

The remaining $25 million in Future Fund money could be reallocated to the west harbour, possibly with some money going into the Pan Am velodrome, which has a $10- to $15-million funding gap.

McHattie will draft another motion calling on the city to look at the impact the CP lands would have if they were used for development associated with the nearby McMaster Innovation Park.

“I don’t think a stadium is a wise use for these lands,” he said. “And I think the costs are such that we’re not going to get the provincial and federal dollars to cover the cost there.”

The price of land, remediation and relocation of three businesses could double an existing $35-million funding gap.

McHattie said an e-mail update on the stadium he sent to constituents prompted about 300 replies, with some 85 per cent opposed to the stadium in that site.

He said many are upset with the letter Ticat owner Bob Young wrote on the team’s website.

“It gave the impression this is a done deal,” McHattie said. “Well, it is not, and many people are picking up on that.”

SteelTown
Oct 8, 2010, 10:51 PM
International Event Opportunities – 2015 Pan Am Games Update

http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/18CCE1E1-06FB-4BC1-890C-7A33BA49ED1D/0/Oct12CM09006j.pdf

SteelTown
Oct 8, 2010, 10:52 PM
"In addition to developing a portion of the site, the Tiger-Cats have agreed to make an $8,000,000 to $10,000,000 capital contribution to the stadium.

The Tiger-Cats have also agreed to pay a yearly amount of $200,000, through a ticket surcharge, for a capital reserve."

SteelTown
Oct 8, 2010, 10:57 PM
Memorandum of Understanding City / Tiger-Cats

The Tiger-Cats and the City have reached a tentative Memorandum of Understanding for the participation in the building and operation of the Pan Am Stadium. The highlights of this agreement are as follows:

1) The Tiger-Cats agree to contribute $10,000,000 over the next 10 years towards the construction of the stadium. Subject to the terms/timing of these payments, this will make available $8 million to $10 million in capital financing.

2) The Tiger-Cats will enter into a 20 year agreement.

3) The Tiger-Cats agree to purchase 10 to 15 acres of land which will be developed commercially and expected to yield approximately $500,000 in municipal taxes a year.

4) Tiger-Cats agree to operate the Stadium at no risk to the City.

5) Tiger-Cats will contribute $200,000 annually to a Capital Reserve fund to be held by the City. The Tiger-Cats will fund their contribution through a ticket surcharge.

6) City agrees to pay the Tiger-Cats $300,000 annually as a management fee for running the Stadium and assuming the associated risk.

7) The City can use the Stadium for community uses at no additional cost. We can also use the Stadium to host special provincial, national and international events and the Tiger-Cats will work with the City to attract and host these events.

8) Tiger-Cats are willing to create a “Hamilton Legacy Foundation” regarding the redevelopment of the Ivor Wynne and West Harbour Sites. A proposal in this regard will be forthcoming.

9) Tiger-Cats have obtained an exclusive option for a North American Soccer League franchise for Hamilton and have begun the formal application process and will use their best efforts to acquire a NASL franchise to play out of the new Pan Am stadium.

10) The Tiger-Cats plan to start a soccer academy in conjunction with the operation of the professional soccer team.

11) The Tiger-Cats retain naming rights and other advertising revenues to offset the cost of running the Stadium.

padthai
Oct 9, 2010, 12:30 AM
From the City report (page 5): "Of specific short-term actions to be taken, staff will be seeking Council's approval to begin the process of demolition within the land holdings in the West Harbour area. Staff believe that many of the properties acquired within this precinct are in a condition where demolition and the maintenance of the property is of paramount public interest. A move toward the demolition of these properties would send a clear message to the neighbourhood of the City's commitment to the re-development of an area of prime importance for the City's future."

Great news! It sounds like something Councilor Jelly (errr..Bratina?) would have included.

padthai
Oct 9, 2010, 12:46 AM
Some of the other tidbits from the report that I found interesting:
- the traffic consultants are basically saying we need the upgrades or else we'll "experience extensive delays. Traffic will be at a standstill on Longwood, from the stadium to Main West; on Main West from Longwood, past the 403 off-ramp and approaching McMaster; and on the 403 itself. MTO will not support this scenario." Not really surprising, but interesting nonetheless.
- upgrades are already planned like "widening of Longwood Road to five lanes, from the bridge to Aberdeen Avenue, intersection improvements at Aberdeen and Longwood, the extension of Frid Street to Longwood Road to provide a route through McMaster Innovation Park (MIP) and the provision of access to westbound Highway 403, west of Longwood Road (connect Main West to the 403 via the Aberdeen on ramp)."
- the City has spent over $10 million and 694 staff days on stadium-related items since May 1st, 2010. Merulla's probably got those numbers burned into his brain for campaign speeches from now til the 25th...

bigguy1231
Oct 9, 2010, 2:02 AM
Bigguy you advising anyone to do research is a bit rich coming from you. A review of this and other thread in this SSP betray an obvious lack of research on your part, not to mention a certain lack of social skills.

I think you are confusing funding commitments from governments with budget allocations for specific venues by the organizing committee. The city's additional costs associated specifically with the stadium is to meet the city's requirments post-Games, which are not an actual requirements for the Games itself. And they do not represent the full investment being made by all levels of government in Hamilton in order to host all the events planned for the area.

For the record, the city has committed $60 million to Pan Am thus far while there has been $150-$200 million in federal and provincial investment committments in the Hamilton area for Pan Am Games, I'd hardly say the overall funding ratio is skewed unfairly against the city.

I think your math is a little off. The commitment for the Pan Ams from the feds and province is about $80 million, not even close to the $150 -$ 200 million you assert. I realize that extra funding is required for a larger stadium and that the city is on the hook for that.

The original cost estimates for the facilities as needed for the Pan Ams were $102 million for a 15,000 seat stadium at the West Harbour with the city providing about half of that. The velodrome funding for a 3500 seat facility was $11.3 million again with the city assuming about half that cost. The pool at Mac was to have cost $35 million with the upper levels of government paying 56% of the costs and Mac the rest. Like I said your math is a little off because the funding from the upper levels of government will only add up to around $80 million. As for the ratio, figure it out, $80 million versus $60 million. I guess in your mind it's okay for this city to be shortchanged so that Toronto can benefit.

As for my social skills I do just fine. You wouldn't last 5 minutes with my friends and I before they would have you with your delicate disposition in tears.

markbarbera
Oct 9, 2010, 12:19 PM
Bigguy, it's not my math that arrived at that figure. Those numbers are directly from the City of Hamilton's Pan Am games website, the proverbial horse's mouth.

It's what's called doing a bit pf research instead of just pulling numbers from the top of your hat. Take a look at the facts yourself, they are posted in the second item on their FAQ page:

How much are the Games costing Hamilton?

A: Hamilton is investing $60 million in the games from the Hamilton Future Fund and in return is benefitting from $150-$200 million in federal and provincial investment in the Hamilton area.

http://www.panamhamilton2015.ca/faq.php

I would trust they would have the most accurate tally on who's paying what.

With regards to your sophmoric final comment, while I would be grateful never to actually have to meet you or any of your friends in person, should we ever have the misfortune of meeting I am sure you'd quickly realize another misconception of yours is that my desire to conduct civil discussion is an indication of a 'delicate disposition'.

highwater
Oct 9, 2010, 1:19 PM
Alright. Put the dicks away, boys. I'd actually enjoy the opportunity to meet both of you, even though you've both been total pricks at times. It's always productive to meet people who care enough about their city to post to forums like this, even if you don't always agree on specific issues.

The narcissism of small differences tends to get magnified on wonky forums like this one, and while the Irishwoman in me adores a good donnybrook over urban minutiae like set-backs and parking requirements, I imagine if we met (maybe we have, who knows? Hamilton is an awfully small town), we'd find our hopes and dreams for our city remarkabley similar.

Eww. That sounded dangerously close to one of those concern trollish requests for civility that have more to do with the commenter's need to be seen as 'moderate' or 'above the fray'. I apologize. After I have had my morning coffee, I will return to my former, immoderate, 'in the fray' self.

And now back to our previously scheduled dick-measuring contest.

Anders Knudsen
Oct 9, 2010, 1:36 PM
Alright. Put the dicks away, boys. I'd actually enjoy the opportunity to meet both of you, even though you've both been total pricks at times. It's always productive to meet people who care enough about their city to post to forums like this, even if you don't always agree on specific issues.

The narcissism of small differences tends to get magnified on wonky forums like this one, and while the Irishwoman in me adores a good donnybrook over urban minutiae like set-backs and parking requirements, I imagine if we met (maybe we have, who knows? Hamilton is an awfully small town), we'd find our hopes and dreams for our city remarkabley similar.

Eww. That sounded dangerously close to one of those concern trollish requests for civility that have more to do with the commenter's need to be seen as 'moderate' or 'above the fray'. I apologize. After I have had my morning coffee, I will return to my former, immoderate, 'in the fray' self.

And now back to our previously scheduled dick-measuring contest.

You also have a backspace button that allows you to do much easier what you just did.

realcity
Oct 9, 2010, 7:15 PM
Why would anyone want to bully someone verbally into tears????

Jon Dalton
Oct 10, 2010, 12:23 AM
I think it's time for another board meeting. It's an entirely different dynamic arguing with someone in real time with real alcohol to fuel the discussion. It can get heated but then you take a drink and the topic changes. I end up disagreeing with some of my friends on the internet but the next time we run into each other it always seems to be cool. It's different when you're dealing with a person and not just an idea.

Jon Dalton
Oct 10, 2010, 12:26 AM
Of course we should keep the penis length measurements strictly online.

SteelTown
Oct 10, 2010, 3:36 PM
If CP agrees to give up the yard that means we've relocated them to the East. Therefore from the yard to the GO Station the CP rail line is abandon by CP. Couldn't we get GO Transit to take ownership of the line? After that couldn't GO turn the GO Station an all day GO Train station?

dennis1
Oct 10, 2010, 10:30 PM
If CP agrees to give up the yard that means we've relocated them to the East. Therefore from the yard to the GO Station the CP rail line is abandon by CP. Couldn't we get GO Transit to take ownership of the line? After that couldn't GO turn the GO Station an all day GO Train station?

That might be difficult.

Jon Dalton
Oct 11, 2010, 1:53 AM
CP still runs east to Welland and to the Bayview Junction where it connects to the CN mainline to Toronto. I think most of those freights are going through, not to or from the Aberdeen yard. I know CP is totally unwilling to let GO use any more track time due to freight traffic demands. If that could have been resolved by moving the Aberdeen yard and rerouting trains somewhere else, that would have come up long before now in negotiations with GO Transit. $30M went into rail improvements for the TH&B restoration (in the early 90's), if they could have made provisions for all day service they would have done it back then, I would think. Bob Bratina probably knows more about this.

Paging Bob Bratina....
Paging Bob Bratina......