[DubberDom]

According to Phil McNeely's site, the 417 should be widened from Vanier Parkway to 174 Split starting next year, is this official? Have the contracts gone out?

http://www.philmcneely.onmpp.ca/en/thesplit.htm

Also, any news on the 174 to Orleans and beyond to Rockland?

I haven't seen anything from the City on the 174 widening to Orleans.

The funding was approved to widen the 174 from Trim to Rockland (80Million), but the city apparently refused it? I suspect that the city is looking to offload this highway back to the province. There is supposedly a EA study commenced in 2007 that was supposed to take 3 years, so 2010?

[RTWAP]

According to Phil McNeely's site, the 417 should be widened from Vanier Parkway to 174 Split starting next year, is this official? Have the contracts gone out?

http://www.philmcneely.onmpp.ca/en/thesplit.htm

Also, any news on the 174 to Orleans and beyond to Rockland?

I haven't seen anything from the City on the 174 widening to Orleans.

The funding was approved to widen the 174 from Trim to Rockland (80Million), but the city apparently refused it? I suspect that the city is looking to offload this highway back to the province. There is supposedly a EA study commenced in 2007 that was supposed to take 3 years, so 2010?

The city did refuse it, but I don't think it has anything to do with the city wanting to offload the road back to the province. I think widening it doesn't fit with the city's plans at this point.

Interesting to note on that page that the province and city are also working to connect Hunt Club to Innes at Anderson Road. If that was part of the plan all along then I missed it somehow.

[DubberDom]

Hunt Club to Innes at Anderson was always part of the plan AFAIK

[eternallyme]

IMO, 174 east of Trim should be widened - but only as a 4 or 5-lane (with central turning lane) undivided arterial on the current alignment with little control of access. There isn't much commercial traffic there with Highway 417 to the south and it is mostly a local purpose, and it is too developed in the whole area to allow for a new alignment without expropriation.

[waterloowarrior]

Interesting to note on that page that the province and city are also working to connect Hunt Club to Innes at Anderson Road. If that was part of the plan all along then I missed it somehow.

http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/occ/2007/12-07/trc/ACS2007-PTE-POL-0070_files/image004.jpg

http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/occ/2007/12-07/trc/ACS2007-PTE-POL-0070.htm

[eternallyme]

Pointless project there IMO, as it duplicates the 417. Widening Highway 417 to 6 lanes in that area makes more sense than a new corridor.

[Dado]

This project (the portion beyond the Hunt Club interchange north to Innes) just goes to show the sheer pointlessness of the EA process(es) given that it managed to get through it at all.

The only part that's justified is the Hunt Club extension and interchange due to the amount of traffic using Hawthorne and going out of its way to go between Hunt Club and the 417. There aren't too many road projects I approve of, but this portion of the project (Phase I) comes close to being a no-brainer.

[DubberDom]

Pointless project there IMO, as it duplicates the 417. Widening Highway 417 to 6 lanes in that area makes more sense than a new corridor.

Absolutely Phase II is silly, why build a parallel road? The only benefit is to bypass the Innes portion between Blair and 417 which the city, in its infinite wisdom, converted to big-box wonderland about 10 years ago. The road should connect directly to the Innes Bypass in Blackburn and also allow for westbound traffic to use the Wakley onramp to go downtown (both of which will not happen)

The only way Phase II can be effective IMO would be to allow commercial development along the roadway (which will never happen - thank you NCC)

[DubberDom]

IMO, 174 east of Trim should be widened - but only as a 4 or 5-lane (with central turning lane) undivided arterial on the current alignment with little control of access. There isn't much commercial traffic there with Highway 417 to the south and it is mostly a local purpose, and it is too developed in the whole area to allow for a new alignment without expropriation.

That could be easily done, but the problem remains that the road is a city-owned road, and beyond Trim, about 90% of cars are not resident of the city of Ottawa. I'm sure the city's plan is to stall and stall again to frustrate Rockland residents and force the province to take it over.

[Lakche]

According to Phil McNeely's site, the 417 should be widened from Vanier Parkway to 174 Split starting next year, is this official? Have the contracts gone out?

http://www.philmcneely.onmpp.ca/en/thesplit.htm


Well,

According to the MTO's website, the following is scheduled for 2010 - 2012:


Highway 416 to Anderson Road - Merivale Road, Carling Avenue, Kirkwood Road bridges, Ottawa
Bridge rehabilitation/deck replacements/widening/noise barrier
planned/expected start: 2010, planned/expected completion: 2012


Highway 416 to Anderson Road - Vanier Parkway to Regional Road 174, Ottawa
Six to eight lane widening
planned/expected start: 2010, planned/expected completion: 2012


Highway 416 to Anderson Road - Cyrville Road Bridge, Ottawa
Bridge replacement
planned/expected start: 2010, planned/expected completion: 2011


Link: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/pubs/highway-construction/southern-highway-2008/partG.shtml

PDF: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/pubs/highway-construction/southern-highway-2008/pdfs/expansion2008.pdf


I haven't seen any news to say otherwise, so it looks like it's still on.

[c_speed3108]

According to Phil McNeely's site, the 417 should be widened from Vanier Parkway to 174 Split starting next year, is this official? Have the contracts gone out?

http://www.philmcneely.onmpp.ca/en/thesplit.htm

Also, any news on the 174 to Orleans and beyond to Rockland?

I haven't seen anything from the City on the 174 widening to Orleans.

The funding was approved to widen the 174 from Trim to Rockland (80Million), but the city apparently refused it? I suspect that the city is looking to offload this highway back to the province. There is supposedly a EA study commenced in 2007 that was supposed to take 3 years, so 2010?

There is a few problems with widening that part of the 174. I used to live near it before I moved further into the core.

The first was that the city was expected to pay a fair portion of the costs. It made no sense to spend Ottawa taxpayers money on a road mostly used by people who are not Ottawa taxpayers.

The second problem is more mathematical. The 174 is 4 lanes between Trim and Montreal rd. If 4 lanes are required between Rockland and trim how many bloody lanes would we need from Orleans into the split and if we added significantly more lanes to the 174 then the Queensway would need more lanes and then downtown streets would probably become the bottleneck.

The biggest problem with the 174 east of trim is safety wrt to vehicles stop for left turns (roads or private driveways) and vehicles crossing the yellow line at high speed on the many many turns. I personally think the best way to deal with this is to put a cement barrier up the middle but keep the highway 2 lanes. This would stop all left turns except at controlled intersections line Cameron Street. It would also prevent accidental cross overs.

[eternallyme]

That could be easily done, but the problem remains that the road is a city-owned road, and beyond Trim, about 90% of cars are not resident of the city of Ottawa. I'm sure the city's plan is to stall and stall again to frustrate Rockland residents and force the province to take it over.

Except those thousands of commuting Rockland residents ARE paying Ottawa taxes (at least indirectly) at the commercial level even if they are not paying residential taxes. If their jobs were moved to Rockland, the City of Ottawa would lose a significant tax base.

[Acajack]

This whole question of an Ottawa city road benefiting people living outside the city limits in another municipality (mostly in Clarence-Rockland) is a perfect illustration of why highways such as these should be under the authority of provincial governments, and why downloading was a bad idea in the first place.

[Ottawan]

Except those thousands of commuting Rockland residents ARE paying Ottawa taxes (at least indirectly) at the commercial level even if they are not paying residential taxes. If their jobs were moved to Rockland, the City of Ottawa would lose a significant tax base.

It's a pretty indirect and probably very small amount of revenue to attribute the commercial property taxes for their workspace (in the majority of cases, a public service cubicle), especially compared to the amount of money generated from a person's residential taxes. I'm sure it does not compare to the cost of provision of services to those commuters (upkeep of all roads except the 417, police, fire, & utilities while they are in Ottawa).

On another note, the current commuters from Rockland moved there fully knowing how the commute would be. The rationale for not expanding it (as far as the city is concerned) is to discourage future growth in Rockland.

[c_speed3108]

When I lived out that way, I always felt that, at least in the short term, adding a lane to each side of the 174 between Place D'Orleans and Montreal Rd would do more for Rockland residents than a lane east of Trim would. The bigger bottlenecks are further in.

As an added bonus about 100000 Orleans residents would benefit too making it a stronger case.

My personal favourate idea would be to build a real transitway (or rail..) from Blair to Orleans and then simply convert the bus lanes to Car lanes and it would be a win for transit users, and a win for car users. The only thing required would be a few changes are interchanges but there would be work anyway if you built a transitway.

[DubberDom]

Report released:

http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/trc/2009/12-02/ACS2009-COS-PWS-0024.htm

[Acajack]

Report released:

http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/trc/2009/12-02/ACS2009-COS-PWS-0024.htm

What I find most interesting is this:
A total of 1,294 offence notices were issued during the five-year period (2003-2007). Significant Highway Traffic Act (HTA) offences included speeding (475), careless driving (51), and following too close (34).

So this means police are only giving out one speeding ticket every four days on the 174!

[waterloowarrior]

a couple of articles on the 174
http://www.orleansonline.ca/pages/N2009120302.htm
http://www.largenteuil.ca/home.jsp?id=8&section=news&news_item_id=17536

note the disposition from the report

5. OTTAWA ROAD 174 – IN-SERVICE ROAD SAFETY REVIEW
ROUTE 174 - EXAMENS DE LA SÉCURITÉ DES ROUTES EN SERVICE
ACS2009-COS-PWS-0024 Orléans (1) and /et Cumberland (19)

That Transportation Committee recommend that Council approve:

1. That staff implement all short-term strategies identified in the report along the two-lane arterial road segment of Ottawa Road 174 east of Trim Road and that this work be completed within current budgeted programs.

2. That staff undertakes a preliminary design of geometric improvements at the intersection of Ottawa Road 174 and Quigley Hill Road and that funds for the construction of these geometric improvements be requested in future capital budgets.

3. That Infrastructure Services staff be directed to design and construct the extension of the transition zone from the freeway section to the two-lane rural arterial road segment including the installation of street lighting, as shown in Document 4 and to increase the base budget of the Trim Road Widening (Ottawa Road 174 to Frank Kenny) project from $ 29.3 million to $ 35 million to fund in the 2011 capital budget.

4. That funding required to implement all medium-term strategies identified in the report be included for consideration in future capital budgets, and

5. That the City request funds from the province and the federal government to implement the road safety strategies included in the report.

6. That the City once again request the Government of Ontario to conduct an Environmental Assessment on widening the road. (added by Committee)

[eternallyme]

19,000 cars a day on 174 between Trim Road and Rockland? That clearly warrants upgrades, even if the commercial vehicle count is low.

As for the potential Orleans bottleneck, remember the capacity for a 4-lane freeway (built before the 417 bypassed the section, correct?) is higher than for a 4 or 5-lane arterial (the 5th lane being a central left turning lane) and the presence of 417 to the south means a freeway is not required there. A 5-lane arterial is my preferred option, since it allows for better local access without significantly impacting traffic operations, and does not require immediate access controls (access controls should be standard for an 80-90 km/h rural arterial highway).

[Richard Eade]

http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/occ/2007/12-07/trc/ACS2007-PTE-POL-0070_files/image004.jpg

http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/occ/2007/12-07/trc/ACS2007-PTE-POL-0070.htm
This was another case of Staff completely missing the mark!

There was a request from an east end Councillor to connect the Hunt Club Road to the 417 so that Orleans residents could have better access to the airport. Unfortunately, the word 'direct' was used instead of 'better'. Staff when off and commissioned the EA for a direct connection from the Hunt Club Road to Orleans. Compound this with the Councillors' refusal to actually READ things before they approve them and then we get an EA for the two phases; first to the 417, and then to Innes. (The only reason it went to Innes, if I recall, is because Staff couldn't get a more direct route through the Mer Bleue.)

So the EA comes back to the Councillors and they are up in arms: Many wanted to NOT recieve it, but Staff told the Councillors that to not recieve it and just have an EA for the connection to the 417 would mean that an entirely new EA would be needed. Wasting more money and time. In the end, the leagal opinion was that the complete EA should be recieved, but the entire project didn't need to ever get completed. It was suggested that after Phase 1 was completed, money would never be found for Phase 2.

However, that is the wish of the current Council. Once an EA in in place, regardless of how silly it is, Staff seem to keep bringing it forward. I am sick and tired of hearing Staff say "As previously approved by Council." Instead, I would have liked it better if the EA had not been recieved and the people responsible fired. There should have been NO WAY such an idea should have had an EA done. Staff should have seen immediately that it was not a good idea to parallel the 417 and gone back to Council to clarify things. That is all it would have taken. People were incompetent and they should not be working for the City. (I'm in a great mood tonight.:()

[waterloowarrior]

This was another case of Staff completely missing the mark!

There was a request from an east end Councillor to connect the Hunt Club Road to the 417 so that Orleans residents could have better access to the airport. Unfortunately, the word 'direct' was used instead of 'better'. Staff when off and commissioned the EA for a direct connection from the Hunt Club Road to Orleans. Compound this with the Councillors' refusal to actually READ things before they approve them and then we get an EA for the two phases; first to the 417, and then to Innes. (The only reason it went to Innes, if I recall, is because Staff couldn't get a more direct route through the Mer Bleue.)




^ The Innes/Walkley connection has been in the OP since at least 1997... part of the approvals for the Cyrville and Innes commercial areas included a clause limiting development in those areas until the Innes-Walkley connection was compeleted .

It is desired to achieve a "balance of needs" recognising that competing demands for capacity on the Innes Road corridor arise from development both in and outside the Core/Node Areas. To achieve this balance, development is to be phased such that the combined number of jobs in the Cyrville Core Activity Area and commercial lands east of Highway 417 in the area of Innes and Cyriville Roads not exceed 5,000 until the City has committed to the construction of the Innes-Walkley Connection in its five year Capital Works Programme.

[Richard Eade]

I think you will find that the old OP talked about an Innes-Walkley Connection - There was no mention of a further connection to Hunt Club. The new request was for an EA on the connecting of Hunt Club to the 417 - Staff added in the connection to Walkley, which ran into the Innes-Walkley Connection. I admit that both mentioned a better connection between the east and the airport, but they were previously different items.

There was a previous EA for the Innes-Walkley Connection, approved in Dec. 2003, in accordance with RFP 01303-92535-P05.

[Dado]

This really goes to show how pointless the EA process can be: this scheme (from the Hunt Club/417 interchange to Innes) should never have made it past the initial screening.

[Richard Eade]

This really goes to show how pointless the EA process can be: this scheme (from the Hunt Club/417 interchange to Innes) should never have made it past the initial screening.
I still agree with this. ('Still' because you made the same comment in entry #7 of this thread.)

I understand that the Innes/Cyrville intersection and others may be at or over capacity, but the need to run a bypass is only there because of poor planning. Innes was the south link out of the east and it was just clogged. Now that there is a problem, I can understand that an EA might say that there is a need to get around that clog, but I don't think it would be a good solution.

[Requin]

http://www.orleansstar.ca/article-453140-Extra-lane-being-added-to-174-west-of-Blair-Road.html

The city is adding a new lane to westbound Hwy 174 from Blair Road and the Hwy 417 east off-ramp.

“The additional lane will help reduce congestion and weaving on the Queensway west of the Blair Road interchange, and improve safety on this stretch of highway,’ Beacon Hill/Cyrville Coun. Michel Bellemare said in a statement.

The work follows eastbound Hwy 174 work finished in 2007 that connected the 417 on-ramp to the Blair Road off-ramp, and extended the Blair and Montréal eastbound on-ramps.‬‪

Other solutions to relieve traffic congestion on the Queensway fall under provincial jurisdiction, Bellemare continued, including the construction of additional lanes on the Queensway from downtown to the east-end split and the realignment of the westbound off-ramp at St. Laurent.‬ Boulevard.

He added that more work is scheduled to start next February when the province is expected to begin replacing the Cyrville overpass to make way for the widening of the Queensway.

The city is chipping in $5 million for the project to accommodate the future widening of Cyrville Road to four lanes, which will include cycling lanes and sidewalks, according to Bellemare.

The Ontario Ministry of Transportation is scheduled to provide more information on the project next week during a meeting of the City of Ottawa Transportation Committee.‬‪

[Richard Eade]

Anyone else think that this sudden interest in widening the 174 (yes it has been in the plan for a while, but it has been ignored for a long time) might be aimed at providing alternative lanes for buses during the conversion of the Transitway?

[waterloowarrior]

Ontario to fund environmental assessment for Ottawa Road 174

City refuses to put up cash for study

BY DAVID GONCZOL, THE OTTAWA CITIZEN MAY 16, 2010 8:02 PM


OTTAWA-Fed up with waiting, the Ontario government has decided to go it alone and fund an environmental assessment of solutions to traffic congestion on the busy stretch of Ottawa Road 174 and County Road 17 in the city’s east end and beyond into Rockland.

But without the city’s participation, the study will only look at the portion of road outside city limits.

Provincial officials have made it clear they have no plans to repeat an offer that was rejected by the city two years ago to fund a study including the city’s portion of the road, which included $80 million from the federal and provincial governments to cover most of any ensuing road construction costs. Since then the city has begun work on improving safety in some areas of Ottawa Road 174 between Trim Road and Canaan Road, but little has been done to ease increasing congestion.

The debate over the years has largely been between people outside the city of Ottawa who want Ottawa Road 174 widened and those who live in Cumberland (which is part of the City of Ottawa) who do not want the road widened into something they fear will resemble the Queensway.

A city of Ottawa study reported last year that there have been 270 collisions between 2003 and 2007, including five fatal collisions on the 12.4 kilometre stretch from Trim Road east to Canaan Road.

Kathleen Wynne, Ontario’s Minister of Transportation, will be in Rockland on Wednesday to announce that the province will proceed without the city.

The City of Ottawa and the province have been at odds since 1997 when the city assumed responsibility for a portion of what was formerly called Provincial Highway 17.

A solution has been difficult to find in part because of strong opposition in Cumberland to widen Ottawa Road 174 from both Cumberland ward councillor Rob Jellett and the Cumberland Village Community Association. The City of Ottawa also contends it should not have to pay for any work because the congestion is caused by motorists east of the city.

Glengarry, Prescott, and Russell MPP Jean Marc Lalonde, MPP for Glengarry, Prescott, and Russell as well as a former mayor of Rockland, said people outside the city of Ottawa can’t wait any longer to fix the traffic problems.

“I’ve been waiting long enough ... I said, lets start the environmental assessment in the Prescott and Russell sector, then we will continue negotiating (with the city of Ottawa),” said Lalonde. He said he hopes the City of Ottawa will ask to join the environmental assessment and that Wynne will change her mind and fund Ottawa’s portion. Wynne said this week there is “no plan” to reconsider the offer.

Jellett said the city has had no warning that the Ontario government was moving ahead.

“This is coming out of the blue to me,” said Jellett, who said the city has assumed for the past two years that costs for any environmental assessment would always be picked up by the province.

“I have no idea how the city is going to respond to that,” said Jellett,

He said city officials had agreed to an environmental assessment but would not fund it or be the ones to lead the study, but would commit city staff to provide technical information. It is expected that the United Counties of Prescott Russell will lead the two-year study with provincial funding, which will focus on 8.4 kilometres of County Road 17 east of Canaan Road, ignoring the 12.4 kilometre stretch to the west where it widens into the four-lane Queensway at Trim Road.

A disappointed Jellett said the whole stretch of road from Trim Road east to Rockland has to be included in the study if it is to include all possible solutions, including the construction of a road diverting traffic around the village of Cumberland to Innes Road.

“Until you look at all the alternatives … you can’t make a proper decision.” said Jellett.

Similarly, Stéphane Parisien, chief administrative officer for the United Counties of Prescott and Russell, said it would be better to study the entire length of congested road from Rockland west to Trim Road but is pleased work will finally begin.

“It’s something we are struggling with as well but it would give us an opportunity to possibly find other ways of redirecting traffic if the city was not participating,” said Parisien.

Rebecca Dufton, president of the Cumberland Village Community Association, said news that the province is moving unilaterally seems to indicate they still simply want to widen what she says is a dangerous road through Cumberland.

“That’s not going to move it ahead at all because they are not going to look at this stretch (through the village of Cumberland), regardless. I don’t think it’s going to get them anywhere. It’s just a waste of time and money,” she said.

She said local residents drive the road in fear because of the many accidents that occur regularly, including a high number of rear end collisions caused when residents slow down to turn into laneways or streets adjoining Ottawa Road 174. She says people commuting to Ottawa who want the road widened in the village of Cumberland simply see their community as a roadway.

“They just think of it as a way to get to work. It’s not going through a community,” she said.

Clarence-Rockland Mayor Richard Lalonde, brother of MPP Jean Marc Lalonde, said local residents have become increasingly frustrated since Ottawa rejected the joint federal-provincial funding to study and widen the roadway. He said there is some talk in his community about blockading the ferry that brings about 800,000 motorists a year from Masson, Que. to Cumberland and onto Ottawa Road 174.

“The only thing we could do is block the entrances to where the ferry is. But, even that, I don’t think it’s fair. We could put people there in the morning and say this is the way we are going to do it. That’s going to stop the people from going to Ottawa but the only people who are going to suffer are the owners of the ferry,” said Lalonde.

He said people east of Ottawa don’t understand why millions of dollars have been spent to improve access to Ottawa for Quebec residents through upgrades to King Edward Avenue while Ontario residents are left facing long lines of traffic east of the city.

“As far as I’m concerned we are all part of Ontario. It’s very frustrating,” said Lalonde.

He said that there is hope that a win by Jim Watson in this year’s mayoralty race will result in City of Ottawa support for the project. Officials in municipalities east of Ottawa point out that Watson was part of the Ontario government cabinet that offered millions to fix the problem two years ago.

“I think the problem will be resolved,” said Lalonde.

Jellett said that interprovincial access through King Edward Avenue was funded mostly by the National Capital Commission. Construction work done by Ottawa to improve King Edward Avenue is intended to deal with problems caused by high volumes of truck traffic in the area.

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen


Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Ontario+fund+environmental+assessment+Ottawa+Road/3035767/story.html#ixzz0o8x4YvmQ

[Dado]

I find it interesting that the Province is willing to put up funds to study the portion of the road outside Ottawa but is unwilling to fund the study of the portion inside it. They've already been informed that the City is willing to participate in the study, just not as a funding party.

Perhaps the Province has noticed that the portion outside the City is much easier twinned than the portion inside it. Of course the same was true back when the road was downloaded to the City. A cynic might conclude that's why the Province got rid of the road in the first place.

[Mille Sabords]

I find it interesting that the Province is willing to put up funds to study the portion of the road outside Ottawa but is unwilling to fund the study of the portion inside it. They've already been informed that the City is willing to participate in the study, just not as a funding party.

Perhaps the Province has noticed that the portion outside the City is much easier twinned than the portion inside it. Of course the same was true back when the road was downloaded to the City. A cynic might conclude that's why the Province got rid of the road in the first place.

It's as political a decision as you're going to get. They get to say to Prescott-Russell that "their portion is studied and ready to go"... so whenever Ottawa becomes "more reasonable" we'll get it all done.

This is one EA that will gather dust for a few decades...

[jeremy_haak]

Didn't most of the downloading of roads back then take place because the roads were ostensibly being used primarily to service local residents? It seems the city has a good case to be made that that is not the case and I think the people at the city believe this as well based on their comments regarding the source of the congestion. I suspect this could turn into a bit of a stalemate as well.

[lrt's friend]

Ha, ha! Doesn't this illustrate the stupidity of the Harris decision to download provincial highways to local municipalities? The provincial highways were designed to be the interurban road network in Ontario. Harris decided to save money and force these interurban roads into municipal roads. This decision as illustrated by the 174 dilemma has taken away power from the province in order to improve the transportation network across municipal boundaries. While Highway 7 improvements are moving forward since Highway 7 was not downloaded, improvements in the east end will be very difficult to implement no matter how much they are needed. I also wish to point out that at least locally, the former provincial highways have not been maintained to the same degree as formerly. Needed repaving is not occuring on time resulting in increasingly rough roads. I would assume that this is a province wide problem and as time progresses, our Ontario road network will decline.

[eternallyme]

They need to re-upload Regional Roads 174/17 from Hawkesbury to Ottawa as a provincial highway. Of course, Highway 7 (and 17W) were slow to get going as well...

[citizen j]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. The city will likely force the province to fund the Cumberland portion or retake responsibility for the entire stretch of highway simply by refusing to do anything. And rightly so. If it is just a local road (rather than a provincially significant one), then the city is justified in treating it as such, and "local" traffic levels east of Orleans don't necessitate twinning. At least not from the perspective of "local" taxpayers in the City of Ottawa.

[Dado]

Ha, ha! Doesn't this illustrate the stupidity of the Harris decision to download provincial highways to local municipalities?

I don't think this has disproved the concept in general, just this instance.

Of the top of my head, downloading Hwy 15 south of Hwy 401 to Kingston made perfect sense, as did downloading Hwy 15 north of Carleton Place. Downloading Highway 43 also makes sense since most of the use of that road is local (it's not being used for travel between Toronto and Montreal, for example). Highway 2, even though it has a history to it, simply wasn't a major interurban road any more. On the whole, I'd say the concept was appropriate by better matching those who benefit with those who pay.

But Hwy 17 is proving to be a different matter. Here we've got a pressure to twin a portion of this road within Ottawa despite the lack of local traffic sufficient to justify such a widening at local taxpayers' expense at this point in time. That would seem to make it a candidate for uploading or at the least some degree of provincial involvement, whether by direct provincial funding or by enabling a cross-border funding from Russell County (which of course they can't or won't do, which is basically the critique of unsupported "beggar-thy-neighbour" suburban/exurban development).


The provincial highways were designed to be the interurban road network in Ontario. Harris decided to save money and force these interurban roads into municipal roads. This decision as illustrated by the 174 dilemma has taken away power from the province in order to improve the transportation network across municipal boundaries

They've still got all the power they need, and they've always got the lever of funding. If the province puts up the cash, it will be done. It's the same as if the road were still provincial. The only real difference now is that the province can play politics and whine about Ottawa, whereas they couldn't before.


While Highway 7 improvements are moving forward since Highway 7 was not downloaded, improvements in the east end will be very difficult to implement no matter how much they are needed. I also wish to point out that at least locally, the former provincial highways have not been maintained to the same degree as formerly. Needed repaving is not occuring on time resulting in increasingly rough roads. I would assume that this is a province wide problem and as time progresses, our Ontario road network will decline.

This is an indication of the lack of sufficient rural tax base to support the roads used in rural areas. For years rural areas have benefited from urban areas subsidizing their roads. It's a bit ironic that the Harris government brought an end to this, though it is arguably in line with market principles of user pay.

[c_speed3108]

I used to live near this thing before I moved closer in... I basically never traveled on since it sorta unsafe: posted 90k facing head on with sharp bends...no thanks...but wait many drive over the speed limit so....yah I will pass on being in a over 200km/h head on!

The number of homes and other things on this highway would make turning it into a divided limited access high virtually impossible. (or the expropriations would be massively expensive since you would be expropriating huge new mansions on water front no less)

The best this could hope for is something along the lines of Innes Rd. - in which case it would make far more sense to extend Innes rd and improve Trim.

That said, even if you could widen this thing somehow to a 4 lane divided highway, the question all always asked was the following:

If a 4 lane highway is really need between Rockland and Orleans, exactly how many lanes should the highway have from Orleans to the split?

Consequently it would make sense in terms of traffic flows to focus on the highway further in and just make safety improvement like a median on the 174 east of Trim.

The 174 could have been widened to 4 lanes when they decided a 4 - lane highway to Montreal was needed. They choose to build that 4 lane highway (aka 417) elsewhere for a good reason - the river route does not work.

[Richard Eade]

Is the City creating a dangerous situation by adding the extra lane section to the north side of the OR174?

Currently traffic from Blair Road on-ramp merges into the two west-bound lanes of the OR174. The traffic then travels in a steady flow until it reaches the off-ramp for the east-bound 417. More than 500 metres separates the on-ramp from the off-ramp, allowing drivers to change into the appropriate lane. Because there is no forced cross-over of lanes within a short distance, the traffic movements along this stretch of the OR174 would not be considered Weaving; there is a merge, and then later traffic diverges.

http://REade.fileave.com/OR174Lanes/174-Lane---Current-Small.jpg

The City is planning to connect the Blair on-ramp to the east-bound 417 off-ramp with an additional lane. Since the OR174 east of Blair only has two east-bound lanes, this new third lane will be clear for the people entering from the Blair on-ramp; thus, the majority of people will likely stay in this clear lane instead of changing into a crowded lane. As the traffic in the new lane approaches the off-ramp for the east-bound 417, through traffic will be forced to merge into the more crowded lanes to the left. I believe that most people will try to stay in the clear lane as long as they can. This pushes the merge point very close to the divergence point for the 417. Traffic heading for the east-bound 417 will have the choice of moving right into the new lane earlier than the current start of the off-ramp, but many will not change lanes until closer to the exit. Now we have a crossing of vehicles in a short space; vehicles moving right to avoid exiting, and those moving right to leave the OR174. Now we have a Weaving problem. If the number of people leaving the OR174 is small, then this Weaving might be acceptable.

http://REade.fileave.com/OR174Lanes/174-Lane---City-Small.jpg

Now, assuming the MTO work is done before the NCC gets the Aviation Parkway dedicated to an inter-provincial Bridge link, or that the Inter-provincial Bridge goes in a different location, then the MTO plans to extend the St. Laurent off-ramp to meet the east-bound 417 off-ramp*. In this scenario, the traffic which wants to travel east on the 417 (i.e., the traffic leaving the OR174 at this interchange) AND the traffic which wants to exit onto St. Laurent boulevard or go to the Mall will all be diverging where the majority of Blair traffic is trying to merge. This will increase the amount of Weaving to the point of being a problem.

http://REade.fileave.com/OR174Lanes/174-Lane---MTO-Small.jpg

* For those who have not been following the MTO’s Plan, they plan to extend the St. Laurent off-ramp and segregate it from the 417/OR174 with a concrete barrier. This is to prevent vehicles from arriving along the 417 and exiting on the St. Laurent off-ramp. This handles their Weaving problem where vehicles need to cross several lanes of the 417/OR174 to get to the off-ramp.

http://REade.fileave.com/OR174Lanes/StLaurent-Ramp---MTO-Small.jpg

If the Aviation Parkway is selected as the route to the new Inter-provincial Bridge, a new ramp from the Aviation Parkway will replace the St. Laurent off-ramp extension and there will no longer be an exit to St. Laurent from the east. People would use the Aviation Parkway to Ogilvie Road to get to St. Laurent Boulevard.

[eternallyme]

I used to live near this thing before I moved closer in... I basically never traveled on since it sorta unsafe: posted 90k facing head on with sharp bends...no thanks...but wait many drive over the speed limit so....yah I will pass on being in a over 200km/h head on!

The number of homes and other things on this highway would make turning it into a divided limited access high virtually impossible. (or the expropriations would be massively expensive since you would be expropriating huge new mansions on water front no less)

The best this could hope for is something along the lines of Innes Rd. - in which case it would make far more sense to extend Innes rd and improve Trim.

That said, even if you could widen this thing somehow to a 4 lane divided highway, the question all always asked was the following:

If a 4 lane highway is really need between Rockland and Orleans, exactly how many lanes should the highway have from Orleans to the split?

Consequently it would make sense in terms of traffic flows to focus on the highway further in and just make safety improvement like a median on the 174 east of Trim.

The 174 could have been widened to 4 lanes when they decided a 4 - lane highway to Montreal was needed. They choose to build that 4 lane highway (aka 417) elsewhere for a good reason - the river route does not work.

A limited-access expressway or freeway would require a whole new alignment there. However, since Highway 417 provides a parallel route for commercial and long-distance traffic, I don't think a freeway is warranted there until traffic counts become REALLY high (i.e. not likely for a long time). I would recommend keeping the same general alignment (the speed limit should remain as it is now and major intersections should remain signalized), but with 4 or 5 lanes in one of several configurations:

1) 4 lanes divided with concrete median barrier (access right-in, right-out only except at certain important intersections)

2) 4 lanes undivided, no change to access

3) 5 lanes undivided with central median barrier, no change to access

IMO, option 3 is best followed by option 1.

It is a fairly local route, so downloading made some sense in that way. The problem is that the two jurisdictions are on totally different planets - it is like Ottawa is trying to anger Prescott-Russell and especially Clarence-Rockland for their own gain. If the province needs to take it back, then they should.

[lrt's friend]

Of the top of my head, downloading Hwy 15 south of Hwy 401 to Kingston made perfect sense, as did downloading Hwy 15 north of Carleton Place. Downloading Highway 43 also makes sense since most of the use of that road is local (it's not being used for travel between Toronto and Montreal, for example). Highway 2, even though it has a history to it, simply wasn't a major interurban road any more. On the whole, I'd say the concept was appropriate by better matching those who benefit with those who pay.

I think that this is a sad statement that effectively our highways should only be a means to get between major cities. It really illustrates the decline of rural Ontario.

It is also sad that our highways should end at another highway instead of in the city centre, as your example of Highway 15 presents. Whatever happened to concept that highway designations were designed to help the traveling public to get to their destination? Who really cares who is paying for the road?

[RTWAP]

Is the City creating a dangerous situation by adding the extra lane section to the north side of the OR174?

Currently traffic from Blair Road on-ramp merges into the two west-bound lanes of the OR174. The traffic then travels in a steady flow until it reaches the off-ramp for the east-bound 417. More than 500 metres separates the on-ramp from the off-ramp, allowing drivers to change into the appropriate lane. Because there is no forced cross-over of lanes within a short distance, the traffic movements along this stretch of the OR174 would not be considered Weaving; there is a merge, and then later traffic diverges.

http://REade.fileave.com/OR174Lanes/174-Lane---Current-Small.jpg

The City is planning to connect the Blair on-ramp to the east-bound 417 off-ramp with an additional lane. Since the OR174 east of Blair only has two east-bound lanes, this new third lane will be clear for the people entering from the Blair on-ramp; thus, the majority of people will likely stay in this clear lane instead of changing into a crowded lane. As the traffic in the new lane approaches the off-ramp for the east-bound 417, through traffic will be forced to merge into the more crowded lanes to the left. I believe that most people will try to stay in the clear lane as long as they can. This pushes the merge point very close to the divergence point for the 417. Traffic heading for the east-bound 417 will have the choice of moving right into the new lane earlier than the current start of the off-ramp, but many will not change lanes until closer to the exit. Now we have a crossing of vehicles in a short space; vehicles moving right to avoid exiting, and those moving right to leave the OR174. Now we have a Weaving problem. If the number of people leaving the OR174 is small, then this Weaving might be acceptable.

http://REade.fileave.com/OR174Lanes/174-Lane---City-Small.jpg

Now, assuming the MTO work is done before the NCC gets the Aviation Parkway dedicated to an inter-provincial Bridge link, or that the Inter-provincial Bridge goes in a different location, then the MTO plans to extend the St. Laurent off-ramp to meet the east-bound 417 off-ramp*. In this scenario, the traffic which wants to travel east on the 417 (i.e., the traffic leaving the OR174 at this interchange) AND the traffic which wants to exit onto St. Laurent boulevard or go to the Mall will all be diverging where the majority of Blair traffic is trying to merge. This will increase the amount of Weaving to the point of being a problem.

http://REade.fileave.com/OR174Lanes/174-Lane---MTO-Small.jpg

* For those who have not been following the MTO’s Plan, they plan to extend the St. Laurent off-ramp and segregate it from the 417/OR174 with a concrete barrier. This is to prevent vehicles from arriving along the 417 and exiting on the St. Laurent off-ramp. This handles their Weaving problem where vehicles need to cross several lanes of the 417/OR174 to get to the off-ramp.

http://REade.fileave.com/OR174Lanes/StLaurent-Ramp---MTO-Small.jpg

If the Aviation Parkway is selected as the route to the new Inter-provincial Bridge, a new ramp from the Aviation Parkway will replace the St. Laurent off-ramp extension and there will no longer be an exit to St. Laurent from the east. People would use the Aviation Parkway to Ogilvie Road to get to St. Laurent Boulevard.

I'm not a fan of extended on an off ramps that create additional lanes. They don't really improve capacity because you're improving flow away from the bottlenecks (unless there is actually high traffic entering the highway and then leaving one exit later). But they do reward drivers who pop into the 'merge' lane for hundreds of meters and then merge again, jumping 40 or 50 cars in the process.

Basically, I'm not a fan of road designs that punish the law-abiding and reward the rule-breakers. It's corrosive to our sense of fairness and justice.

It reminds me of the priority lane on the Champlain bridge. I've been using it quite a bit lately with my kids during rush hour. Probably 90% of the cars in it are single occupancy. If you're not going to enforce the rule then don't bother having it? It's worse than no rule at all.

Back to the highway plan, it sure sounds screwed up. Hard to believe that they're going to route all the westbound exiting St. Laurent traffic onto Oglivie road.

[Lakche]

I believe this is the plan they settled on:

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/engineering/417ea/pic2/pdf/SL-N-3.pdf

TPA - Construct a barrier to prevent traffic from 417 exiting at St. Laurent. Access for 417 via Aviation Parkway and Ogilvie Road. Access from OR 174 westbound via a new separate ramp to be built between the Queensway and Transitway


I guess they expect drivers to exit at Aviation, turn on Ogilvie, and then access St. Laurent from there.

Having sat through the bottleneck at the split every morning on my way into work, very rarely did I witness a driver coming from 417 westbound merge across 3 lanes to exit at St. Laurent. When I did, it was usually a truck.

[waterloowarrior]

I have had to do that maneuver a lot of times when working downtown (P&R) or going to the mall.... Once I had to honk as me and another driver tried to merge into each other's lanes, but otherwise it's OK (although certainly adds to your stress). The biggest problem I had was drivers coming from Orleans and getting off at St. Laurent would sometimes be going a lot faster than drivers on the three through lanes, and would sometimes pass merging drivers on the shoulder... or people would drive fast all the way up to the off-ramp and squeeze back onto the highway at the last second.

The rerouting to Aviation will certainly be safer, but I will miss the off-ramp with the bridge that takes you right to the mall :)

[bradnixon]

I believe this is the plan they settled on:

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/engineering/417ea/pic2/pdf/SL-N-3.pdf

TPA - Construct a barrier to prevent traffic from 417 exiting at St. Laurent. Access for 417 via Aviation Parkway and Ogilvie Road. Access from OR 174 westbound via a new separate ramp to be built between the Queensway and Transitway



That's not what that PDF says... it says that the St Laurent and 417 EB off-ramps would be combined, with a barrier constructed to prevent 417WB traffic from exiting at St Laurent.

The Ogilvie alternative was looked at, but discarded.

If a bridge is built at Kettle Island, this whole interchange will need to be re-designed, and it will likely change again.

[Lakche]

That's not what that PDF says... it says that the St Laurent and 417 EB off-ramps would be combined, with a barrier constructed to prevent 417WB traffic from exiting at St Laurent.

The Ogilvie alternative was looked at, but discarded.

If a bridge is built at Kettle Island, this whole interchange will need to be re-designed, and it will likely change again.

That description wasn't mine, I just copied it from here:

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/engineering/417ea/ttc2.shtml


I understood it just as you described. The barrier would block all 417 westbound traffic from exiting at St. Laurent when they merge at the split.

Instead, they would have to exit at Aviation parkway and turn on to Ogilvie road to get to St. Laurent.

174 westbound traffic can still exit at St. Laurent.

[Richard Eade]

Thanks, Lakche, for the link to the MTO stuff; it is helping me figure out why the Cyrville Road Bridge is being designed the way it is.

At the Open House, I was curious to see that the bridge was being lengthened only over the east-bound side of the 417/OR174. There will be space for an extra, future, lane as they move that abutment south, but the piers in the bridge center are to remain in the same location (which is reasonable since they are in the median of the 417/OR174) and the north piers are to replace the north abutment – in the same location. Thus, there will not be any extra room to add an additional west-bound lane in the future. A new abutment will be added to the north, creating a third span, but it is only to bridge the new extended St. Laurent off-ramp.

To illustrate this issue:
http://REade.fileave.com/OR174Lanes/Cyrville-Bridge.jpg

The critical points are the yellow notes: The distance between the central piers and the new north piers will be the same as the current distance from the central piers to the north abutment; this will only allow the current 2x OR174 + 2x 417 lanes.

The City could widen the 174 to 10-lanes in each direction, but the MTO is only allowing two lanes to enter the 417. ‘The Split’ will forever-more be a bottle-neck from the east. This is the MTO plan – basically throttle the flow from the OR174 so that the 417 only needs 4 west-bound lanes.

[Dado]

The City could widen the 174 to 10-lanes in each direction, but the MTO is only allowing two lanes to enter the 417. ‘The Split’ will forever-more be a bottle-neck from the east. This is the MTO plan – basically throttle the flow from the OR174 so that the 417 only needs 4 west-bound lanes.

And yet the MTO rebuilt the 417 to Kanata with 4 lanes in each direction (plus bus lanes) in addition to the traffic from the 416.

I can see why east-end motorheads might have some reason to feel slighted.

[Lakche]

The population at both ends of the city is about equal, too.

The 2006 census, seen here:

http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/statistics/data_handbook/population/table_1_en.html

Shows Orleans at about 100,000 and Kanata + Stittsville at 90,000 (rounded)


However, a lot more people in Orleans take public transit. I recall seeing some statistics at OC Transpo showing that Orleans had the highest ridership. Maybe the City/MTO is counting on that to continue and is preferring not to widen the highway unnecessarily.

That may backfire 10~20 years into the future, though...

[Acajack]

The west end has the Scotiabank Place traffic that has to be taken into account for road space needs as well.

[bradnixon]

I've never really understood why the split bottleneck isn't addressed by simply re-arranging the westbound lanes so that 2 lanes come in from the 174 and only 1 from the 417, instead of the other way around.

I know that "technically" the 417 is the through-highway, but the reality is that the majority of the traffic is coming from the 174, not the 417.

[DubberDom]

Here is the memo from the Cumberland Village Community Association


Highway 174 Safety Study


In October 2009, the City of Ottawa conducted a safety study on Regional Road 174 between Trim and Canaan Road, in response to concerns raised by Cumberland residents. Read the full report at: http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/trc/2009/12-02/ACS2009-COS-PWS-0024

The report contains the following statistics:

* Between January 2003 and December 2007 there were 270 collisions, including five fatalities
* The average daily volume is close to 19,000 vehicles
* The average operating speed is 95 to 104 km per hour
* In all cases, the majority of the accidents were rear-end collisions

While the report proposes short, medium and long-term measures to improve safety, it concludes that neither four-laning the 174 from Trim to Canaan Road nor adding passing lanes can be justified based solely on safety factors and that from a traffic safety perspective, the benefit to the corridor is not as clear (page 15). Many media reports wrongly concluded that the study supported widening the 174.

The CVCA reviewed the safety study and prepared a submission to the Transportation Committee supporting many of the safety measures outlined in the report. We also wrote a number of letters to the editor to clear up the misinformation.

We argue that the current speeds are unsafe, given that the road passes through a residential area. We do not support widening the 174 to four lanes.

We argue that widening will not make the road safer for the many residents who live along the river, that it will divide our community, harm the environment, and that it cannot address the volume of commuter traffic, even in the short-term.

We call for:

* more public transit and a park and ride at Canaan Road
* an alternate route to reduce the volume of high-speed commuting traffic in our community, and
* completing the speed study originally planned for 2011 as soon as possible.

[DubberDom]

The speed study should be done in 2010 as per memo from Counselor Jellett

[Richard Eade]

OK, so what will it take to actually FIX The Split?

From what I can see, there are a number of problems:
• The MTO doesn’t like the weave from the 417-east to the St. Laurent off-ramp;
• There are only two lanes from each of the 417-east and OR174, which might not be enough for the volumes;
• One of the OR174 lanes becomes the St. Laurent off-ramp, forcing merges.

The current MTO plan to fix the problems is to extend the St. Laurent off-ramp back to a point east of The Split. This will stop the weaving problem and, once the St. Laurent overpass is widened, the two OR174 lanes will continue as two lanes. There is no answer to the road volume question.

The MTO’s plan also has the provision that should the Inter-provincial Bridge tie into the Aviation Parkway, the extended St. Laurent off-ramp would be removed to provide space for a ramp from the Aviation Parkway to the west-bound 417. There would then be no direct access to St. Laurent from the east.

Perhaps an alternative (although more expensive) option would be to move the junction of the 417-east and the OR174 farther east. That way, traffic would have lots of time to move over to the St. Laurent off-ramp. The weaving problem would be solved and the ramp could remain where it is so it would not be affected by the Inter-provincial Bridge. I would still suggest that the St. Laurent overpass be widened so that both lanes of the OR174 could remain, as the MTO has planned. Again, this idea does not address the road volume question.

http://REade.fileave.com/OR174Lanes/417-174-Interchange-Suggest.jpg

This is the full, future interchange should the Aviation Parkway need it because of the Inter-provincial Bridge; however, only the blue lines are required to pull the junction east. (But some of the Fuchsia, Red, and Green lines move other roads which are obstacles.) The curve along the 417 alignment is the same as it currently is, but the road is moved north-west to meet the OR174 sooner. This moves the junction more than 500 metres back from its current location, giving plenty of time for lane changes to get to the St. Laurent off-ramp.

In the diagram I have used the full area available to ensure higher speeds can be maintained when moving from one road to another. I have also tried to re-use existing infrastructure where I could. Yes, it would be expensive, but it can be done in stages.

http://REade.fileave.com/OR174Lanes/417-174-Interchange-Sequenc.jpg

If desired, the sequence could end at stage 5 which would move the junction and only maintain existing roadway connections.

Comments?

[eternallyme]

To fix the split: I would convert the interchange to an offsetting 4-level stack. Access to and from St. Laurent would ONLY be possible to 417EB and from 417WB and Aviation Parkway SB in order to reduce weaving - barriers would separate through traffic well ahead of the interchange, like a C/D road. Other ramps would need to be braided/reconfigured to minimize weaving considering the number of lanes that would need to merge down.

The ramp configuration would be:

From 417W To
417E - Side ramp in SW quad, 2 lanes (provisions for 3, incl. 1 HOV lane)
174E - 1st level through movement, 3 lanes (provisions for 4, incl. 1 HOV lane)
Aviation - 4th level flyover from SW to NE quad, 1 lane (provisions for 2)

From 174E To
417E - 4th level flyover from NE to SW quad, striped 1 lane (room for 2)
417W - 1st level through movement, 3 lanes (provisions for 4, incl. 1 HOV lane)
Aviation - Side ramp in NE quad, 1 lane (provisions for 2)

From 417E To
174E - Side ramp in SE quad, 1 lane (provisions for 2)
417W - 3rd level flyover from SE to NW quad, striped 2 lanes (room for 3, incl. 1 HOV lane)
Aviation - 2nd level through movement, striped 1 lane (room for 2)

From Aviation To
417E - 2nd level through movement, striped 1 lane (room for 2)
174E - 3rd level flyover from NW to SE quad, 1 lane (provisions for 2)
417W - Side ramp in NW quad, 1 lane (provisions for 2)

[Richard Eade]

To fix the split: I would convert the interchange to an offsetting 4-level stack. Access to and from St. Laurent would ONLY be possible to 417EB and from 417WB and Aviation Parkway SB in order to reduce weaving - barriers would separate through traffic well ahead of the interchange, like a C/D road. Other ramps would need to be braided/reconfigured to minimize weaving considering the number of lanes that would need to merge down.

The ramp configuration would be:

From 417W To
417E - Side ramp in SW quad, 2 lanes (provisions for 3, incl. 1 HOV lane)
174E - 1st level through movement, 3 lanes (provisions for 4, incl. 1 HOV lane)
Aviation - 4th level flyover from SW to NE quad, 1 lane (provisions for 2)

From 174E To
417E - 4th level flyover from NE to SW quad, striped 1 lane (room for 2)
417W - 1st level through movement, 3 lanes (provisions for 4, incl. 1 HOV lane)
Aviation - Side ramp in NE quad, 1 lane (provisions for 2)

From 417E To
174E - Side ramp in SE quad, 1 lane (provisions for 2)
417W - 3rd level flyover from SE to NW quad, striped 2 lanes (room for 3, incl. 1 HOV lane)
Aviation - 2nd level through movement, striped 1 lane (room for 2)

From Aviation To
417E - 2nd level through movement, striped 1 lane (room for 2)
174E - 3rd level flyover from NW to SE quad, 1 lane (provisions for 2)
417W - Side ramp in NW quad, 1 lane (provisions for 2)
4-levels! Remember that this is Ottawa, not Montreal. We don't like tall things here unless they are trees.:D

But, back to your suggestion, I see a down side in only allowing the 417WB to exit at St. Laurent. I think that there are a lot of east-end people who use the OR174 to get to St. Laurent. Without the direct link, they will be using Ogilvie and the Aviation Parkway; but the Aviation Parkway will be crowded with people travelling to Gatineau and back. If possible, I think it is better to keep the traffic distributed between the Parkway and St. Laurent by maintaining a direct exit from the OR174.

[eternallyme]

4-levels! Remember that this is Ottawa, not Montreal. We don't like tall things here unless they are trees.:D

But, back to your suggestion, I see a down side in only allowing the 417WB to exit at St. Laurent. I think that there are a lot of east-end people who use the OR174 to get to St. Laurent. Without the direct link, they will be using Ogilvie and the Aviation Parkway; but the Aviation Parkway will be crowded with people travelling to Gatineau and back. If possible, I think it is better to keep the traffic distributed between the Parkway and St. Laurent by maintaining a direct exit from the OR174.

Actually, looking at the configuration of the current interchange, flipping the sides may make more sense. That means no access to St. Laurent from the 417WB through the split, they would have to get off at Innes. The thinking is similar to Moodie access from 416 to 417WB there, where a barrier blocks such access (very smart move).

Eliminating the loop ramp allows for more space for movements without interference with the Transitway/LRT corridor (which is unaffected by such an upgrade; all the ramps go over it).

[Richard Eade]

Well, I asked the City if it wouldn’t be a good idea to ask the Province to include room for an extra (third) east-bound OR174 lane under the new Cyrville Bridge.

[Just to refresh your memory; the Province is replacing the Cyrville Bridge over the 417/OR174. This will shut down Cyrville Road for two years. There will be additional room for a new east-bound 417 lane, but the west-bound lanes will be restricted to the current two lanes of 417 and two lanes of OR174. A new span will be added north of the bridge to house an extended St. Laurent off ramp so that it is available only to OR174 vehicles. This ramp will connect with the current 417E ramp which is also where the new third lane of the OR174 is to end. This will prevent cars from the 417 exiting at St. Laurent.]

The answer from Nancy Schepers was that the Province’s plans were based on a study that used the best City provided estimates of the early 2000s to a horizon year of 2021. She mentioned that the estimates have been updated, but that the updated numbers have not been used by the Province. She also said that there were no plans to widen the OR174 when the study was done.

Given that the OR174 has already been widened to three east-bound lanes from the 417 to Blair, and similar widening is happening this summer to the west-bound lanes, I asked whether the City feels that things have changed. I also asked for the latest traffic counts.

I got no answer about whether the City thinks conditions have changed enough to ask for a change in the bridge structure. (Aside: The City has augmented the Provincial plan and is paying $5M to have the bridge structure widened to four lanes.) It seems to me that since they are now widening the OR174 to three lanes per direction, there should at least be room for three OR174 lanes under the new bridge. That bridge will be in place for 60+ years. That is a long time to be funneling traffic from three lanes down to the same two lanes that were planned in the 1960s.

I did get some traffic counts:

As per your request, here are the 2005 morning peak hour volume at the requested locations:

- West-bound OR174 immediately east of Blair Road = 3650
- Entering OR174 from the Blair Road ramps = 600
- Leaving at the 417E ramp = 250
- Exit to St. Laurent Boulevard = 750
- West-bound 417 passing under Cyrville Bridge = 6850

These numbers were used in the modeling exercise for the TMP update.


I am assuming that the 6,850 vehicles attributed to the west-bound 417 passing under the Cyrville Bridge is actually the sum of vehicles on both the 417 AND the OR174 since pushing almost 7,000 cars through two lanes seems unreasonable to me. So, in pictorial form it looked like this in 2005:

http://REade.fileave.com/OR174Lanes/OR174-Traffic-Counts.jpg

It is no surprise that the TMP (2008 update) now identifies the need to widen the OR174 from the 417 to Jeanne d’Arc. The number of vehicles using the two OR174 lanes between Blair and the 417 is listed as 4,250!

So, if the need exists to widen the OR174 up to the 417, why does the City not think there will be a need to allow the third lane to pass under the Cyrville Bridge? The reasons given are that the extended St. Laurent ramp will take cars off the OR174 sooner; that there will no longer be weaving of cars from the west-bound 417 to the St. Laurent off ramp; and that both lanes of the OR174 will continue over St. Laurent, removing the need for cars in the right lane to merge left to avoid the St. Laurent exit.

Using the 2005 number as if they were current: The extended off ramp will remove approximately 750 more cars from the number passing under the Cyrville Bridge – this leaves 3,250 vehicles in the two OR174 lanes. There are also about 2,850 vehicles on the 417 lanes passing under the Cyrville Bridge. (This number may go down as cars which previously wove across the OR174 will be continuing north on the Aviation Parkway to Ogilvie Road to get to St. Laurent. The numbers provided can not provide this detail.) There is no merging between these lanes until west of the bridge so the OR174 could not take advantage of surplus capacity from the 417 lanes.

So, in 2005 numbers, it would seem that there is capacity to carry the OR174 traffic (3,250 vehicles per hour) onto the 417 with only two lanes. If I assume 2,000 cars per lane per hour, two lanes should carry about 4,000 cars in the peak hour. The OR174 will only be at 81% capacity once the St. Laurent off ramp is extended – again, using 2005 traffic counts.

So is a spare 19% enough to handle the growth of Orleans, Rockland, etc., traffic over the next 60+ years? Remember, there are two big roads people from the east can use to cross the Greenbelt, the OR174, and Innes Road. I understand that Innes is pretty much at capacity and the prospect for widening it further is not good. Thus, I think most of the new traffic will be coming along the OR174; where the three lanes will narrow to two lanes under the Cyrville Bridge.

Now think of the scenario where the Inter-provincial Bridge is built at Kettle Island. The traffic will be routed down the Aviation Parkway to the 417. The new N-W ramp from the Aviation Parkway to the 417 will replace the St. Laurent off ramp. (There will be room for only one ramp in the new span.) People will instead, leave the OR174 via a new E-N ramp onto the Parkway to Ogilvie Road to St. Laurent. This will not add any extra vehicles under the Cyrville Bridge, but will add merging traffic into the northern OR174 lane just west of Cyrville. If there were a third west-bound lane, the extra traffic could better be absorbed.

So, what do you think; should the new Cyrville Bridge be lengthened to allow for a future third OR174 west-bound lane?

[RTWAP]

..

Are they planning on making the 417 WB 5 lanes wide? If not then I don't see the point in having the 174 WB be 3 lanes wide. There may as well be a merge on the 174.

And I suspect that the 417 WB traffic coming from the south will grow fairly quickly too. There's a fair bit of growth in those outlying communities east of the city.

[eternallyme]

Well, I asked the City if it wouldn’t be a good idea to ask the Province to include room for an extra (third) east-bound OR174 lane under the new Cyrville Bridge.

[Just to refresh your memory; the Province is replacing the Cyrville Bridge over the 417/OR174. This will shut down Cyrville Road for two years. There will be additional room for a new east-bound 417 lane, but the west-bound lanes will be restricted to the current two lanes of 417 and two lanes of OR174. A new span will be added north of the bridge to house an extended St. Laurent off ramp so that it is available only to OR174 vehicles. This ramp will connect with the current 417E ramp which is also where the new third lane of the OR174 is to end. This will prevent cars from the 417 exiting at St. Laurent.]

The answer from Nancy Schepers was that the Province’s plans were based on a study that used the best City provided estimates of the early 2000s to a horizon year of 2021. She mentioned that the estimates have been updated, but that the updated numbers have not been used by the Province. She also said that there were no plans to widen the OR174 when the study was done.

Given that the OR174 has already been widened to three east-bound lanes from the 417 to Blair, and similar widening is happening this summer to the west-bound lanes, I asked whether the City feels that things have changed. I also asked for the latest traffic counts.

I got no answer about whether the City thinks conditions have changed enough to ask for a change in the bridge structure. (Aside: The City has augmented the Provincial plan and is paying $5M to have the bridge structure widened to four lanes.) It seems to me that since they are now widening the OR174 to three lanes per direction, there should at least be room for three OR174 lanes under the new bridge. That bridge will be in place for 60+ years. That is a long time to be funneling traffic from three lanes down to the same two lanes that were planned in the 1960s.

I did get some traffic counts:

As per your request, here are the 2005 morning peak hour volume at the requested locations:

- West-bound OR174 immediately east of Blair Road = 3650
- Entering OR174 from the Blair Road ramps = 600
- Leaving at the 417E ramp = 250
- Exit to St. Laurent Boulevard = 750
- West-bound 417 passing under Cyrville Bridge = 6850

These numbers were used in the modeling exercise for the TMP update.


I am assuming that the 6,850 vehicles attributed to the west-bound 417 passing under the Cyrville Bridge is actually the sum of vehicles on both the 417 AND the OR174 since pushing almost 7,000 cars through two lanes seems unreasonable to me. So, in pictorial form it looked like this in 2005:

http://REade.fileave.com/OR174Lanes/OR174-Traffic-Counts.jpg

It is no surprise that the TMP (2008 update) now identifies the need to widen the OR174 from the 417 to Jeanne d’Arc. The number of vehicles using the two OR174 lanes between Blair and the 417 is listed as 4,250!

So, if the need exists to widen the OR174 up to the 417, why does the City not think there will be a need to allow the third lane to pass under the Cyrville Bridge? The reasons given are that the extended St. Laurent ramp will take cars off the OR174 sooner; that there will no longer be weaving of cars from the west-bound 417 to the St. Laurent off ramp; and that both lanes of the OR174 will continue over St. Laurent, removing the need for cars in the right lane to merge left to avoid the St. Laurent exit.

Using the 2005 number as if they were current: The extended off ramp will remove approximately 750 more cars from the number passing under the Cyrville Bridge – this leaves 3,250 vehicles in the two OR174 lanes. There are also about 2,850 vehicles on the 417 lanes passing under the Cyrville Bridge. (This number may go down as cars which previously wove across the OR174 will be continuing north on the Aviation Parkway to Ogilvie Road to get to St. Laurent. The numbers provided can not provide this detail.) There is no merging between these lanes until west of the bridge so the OR174 could not take advantage of surplus capacity from the 417 lanes.

So, in 2005 numbers, it would seem that there is capacity to carry the OR174 traffic (3,250 vehicles per hour) onto the 417 with only two lanes. If I assume 2,000 cars per lane per hour, two lanes should carry about 4,000 cars in the peak hour. The OR174 will only be at 81% capacity once the St. Laurent off ramp is extended – again, using 2005 traffic counts.

So is a spare 19% enough to handle the growth of Orleans, Rockland, etc., traffic over the next 60+ years? Remember, there are two big roads people from the east can use to cross the Greenbelt, the OR174, and Innes Road. I understand that Innes is pretty much at capacity and the prospect for widening it further is not good. Thus, I think most of the new traffic will be coming along the OR174; where the three lanes will narrow to two lanes under the Cyrville Bridge.

Now think of the scenario where the Inter-provincial Bridge is built at Kettle Island. The traffic will be routed down the Aviation Parkway to the 417. The new N-W ramp from the Aviation Parkway to the 417 will replace the St. Laurent off ramp. (There will be room for only one ramp in the new span.) People will instead, leave the OR174 via a new E-N ramp onto the Parkway to Ogilvie Road to St. Laurent. This will not add any extra vehicles under the Cyrville Bridge, but will add merging traffic into the northern OR174 lane just west of Cyrville. If there were a third west-bound lane, the extra traffic could better be absorbed.

So, what do you think; should the new Cyrville Bridge be lengthened to allow for a future third OR174 west-bound lane?

I'd make it wide enough to accomodate a total of 12 lanes underneath as that is what it might need there to accomodate all the weaving and turning movements. Alternatively, I'd convert it to an tunnel (below both the Transitway/LRT and 417) to eliminate the problems and allow for flyover ramps to start farther west.

[MaxHeadroom]

As a former resident of Orleans...

IMHO The city doesn't want to do anything with the 174 because they're still upset it got downloaded to them from the province 10 years ago. They're hoping the province will take it back and do something with it. This is further evidenced by the city's refusal to even consider doing something with the 174 east of Trim, forcing the province and Rockland to fund the EA. And again further evidenced by the city's decision to use federal stimulus money to extend Hunt Club East as a dead end road to nowhere since the province has chosen not to proceed with the 417/Hunt Club East interchange. They could have used that money to widen the 174 instead!

The city has no plans to widen the mainline of 174 (joining ramps together doesn't count) and widening it east of Montreal Road isn't even in the official plan. http://www.ottawa.ca/city_services/planningzoning/2020/transpo/anx_a_en.shtml Meanwhile, there is city-encouraged mass development going on in Orleans and traffic is getting worse. Six years ago Innes Road was a two lane rural standard and extremely congested, now it's a four lane arterial and extremely congested! Bravo.

Meanwhile, Kanata has a brand new ten-lane roadway serving it. Hardly seems fair.

The proposed plan for the split under the current Queensway EA is to widen the 417 eastbound to three lanes through the split and do nothing to the 174. Mind you, westbound 174 will have two dedicated lanes merging onto the 417 with two lanes for a total of four lanes, which will help a bit.

Unfortunately, Ottawa Orleans MPP Phil McNeely's promises to fix the split apply only to the provincial portion. And the business community has realized that without sufficient road networks in Orleans, nobody can get to work, which is why unlike Kanata the Orleans Business Park remains an empty field of weeds.

[Acajack]

As a former resident of Orleans...

IMHO The city doesn't want to do anything with the 174 because they're still upset it got downloaded to them from the province 10 years ago. They're hoping the province will take it back and do something with it. This is further evidenced by the city's refusal to even consider doing something with the 174 east of Trim, forcing the province and Rockland to fund the EA. And again further evidenced by the city's decision to use federal stimulus money to extend Hunt Club East as a dead end road to nowhere since the province has chosen not to proceed with the 417/Hunt Club East interchange. They could have used that money to widen the 174 instead!

The city has no plans to widen the mainline of 174 (joining ramps together doesn't count) and widening it east of Montreal Road isn't even in the official plan. http://www.ottawa.ca/city_services/planningzoning/2020/transpo/anx_a_en.shtml Meanwhile, there is city-encouraged mass development going on in Orleans and traffic is getting worse. Six years ago Innes Road was a two lane rural standard and extremely congested, now it's a four lane arterial and extremely congested! Bravo.

Meanwhile, Kanata has a brand new ten-lane roadway serving it. Hardly seems fair.

The proposed plan for the split under the current Queensway EA is to widen the 417 eastbound to three lanes through the split and do nothing to the 174. Mind you, westbound 174 will have two dedicated lanes merging onto the 417 with two lanes for a total of four lanes, which will help a bit.

Unfortunately, Ottawa Orleans MPP Phil McNeely's promises to fix the split apply only to the provincial portion. And the business community has realized that without sufficient road networks in Orleans, nobody can get to work, which is why unlike Kanata the Orleans Business Park remains an empty field of weeds.

I also grew up in Orleans and still have family and friends there. Every time I go I find that in addition to the traffic issues between Orleans and downtown, traffic within Orleans itself is getting particularly bad. Especially if you are trying to travel north-south, where there are few direct routes say between the 174/St-Joseph and Innes. Tenth Line Rd. is just about the only direct route and it is particularly bad. The other main north-south roads are all exaggeratedly curvy (Jeanne d'Arc and Orleans blvds) or dead-ended at some point (Boyer and Belcourt). As the crow flies, it is only about 3 km between the 174 and Innes.

It is weird how it can almost take as much time to drive across Orleans north-south than it does to drive from downtown Ottawa to Trim Rd... (I do realize that from downtown it is freeway driving, but still...)

[Dado]

As a former resident of Orleans...

IMHO The city doesn't want to do anything with the 174 because they're still upset it got downloaded to them from the province 10 years ago. They're hoping the province will take it back and do something with it. This is further evidenced by the city's refusal to even consider doing something with the 174 east of Trim, forcing the province and Rockland to fund the EA.

Well that's fair enough. There's not enough Ottawa-origin traffic (i.e. from Cumberland) on that segment to justify using Ottawa tax dollars to widen it, and, furthermore, a widening of that section will probably precipitate a widening of the 174 through Orleans.

Ottawa's incentive is to pacify old Hwy 17 east of Trim down to a rural arterial so as to slow traffic to make it safer for its residents along the road. Ottawa has absolutely no incentive to make it easier for Rockland residents to drive in to Ottawa.


And again further evidenced by the city's decision to use federal stimulus money to extend Hunt Club East as a dead end road to nowhere since the province has chosen not to proceed with the 417/Hunt Club East interchange. They could have used that money to widen the 174 instead!
I don't know if widening 174 is "shovel ready". An EA definitely exists for Hunt Club, though. The City is trying to force the Province's hand.


The city has no plans to widen the mainline of 174 (joining ramps together doesn't count) and widening it east of Montreal Road isn't even in the official plan. http://www.ottawa.ca/city_services/planningzoning/2020/transpo/anx_a_en.shtml Meanwhile, there is city-encouraged mass development going on in Orleans and traffic is getting worse. Six years ago Innes Road was a two lane rural standard and extremely congested, now it's a four lane arterial and extremely congested! Bravo.


Innes is six lanes across the Greenbelt to Blackburn Hamlet and they're planning to extend the Blackburn Hamlet bypass further south in Orleans (along with constructing the Cumberland Transitway), which is where most of the development is happening. I can't see that Orleans-origin traffic on the 174 is going to increase much more. There'll be more traffic from Orleans going through the Split, but it'll be using the 417 via Innes.


Meanwhile, Kanata has a brand new ten-lane roadway serving it. Hardly seems fair.

I was appalled when I realized it was going to be 8 lanes + 2 bus lanes + shoulders. Initially I thought it was going to upgrade the 4 lanes + 2 shoulder bus lanes to 6 lanes + 2 bus lanes + shoulders (i.e. one new lane in each direction + restoring the shoulders), which would allow the 2 bus lanes to become regular lanes when the West Transitway was extended. Instead, ultimately, we'll have a 10-lane freeway with a pair of lanes or tracks for transit beside it - and those 10 lanes will have nowhere to go east of the 416, either.

I can well understand why people in the east end would have cause to be pissed off at the MTO and the Province.


The proposed plan for the split under the current Queensway EA is to widen the 417 eastbound to three lanes through the split and do nothing to the 174. Mind you, westbound 174 will have two dedicated lanes merging onto the 417 with two lanes for a total of four lanes, which will help a bit.

Unfortunately, Ottawa Orleans MPP Phil McNeely's promises to fix the split apply only to the provincial portion. And the business community has realized that without sufficient road networks in Orleans, nobody can get to work, which is why unlike Kanata the Orleans Business Park remains an empty field of weeds.

But there's more to it than that. It's not like the split is preventing people from driving east to Orleans in the morning. A lot of Kanata's employment is of people living in Kanata as well. Barrhaven is at least as devoid of employment as Orleans, and doesn't even have a decent-sized shopping centre, either. It just seems to me that Kanata managed to capture the imagination of the business community in a way that none of the other suburbs have managed to.

[DubberDom]

Well that's fair enough. There's not enough Ottawa-origin traffic (i.e. from Cumberland) on that segment to justify using Ottawa tax dollars to widen it, and, furthermore, a widening of that section will probably precipitate a widening of the 174 through Orleans.

Ottawa's incentive is to pacify old Hwy 17 east of Trim down to a rural arterial so as to slow traffic to make it safer for its residents along the road. Ottawa has absolutely no incentive to make it easier for Rockland residents to drive in to Ottawa.


The first part of your statement is correct. As for the second statement about speeds, I am a resident of Cumberland Village and we have been pushing to reduce the speeds through Cumberland area. The city completed a speed study and low-and-behold, they say that there is no need to reduce the speed limit...

The proposal from the community association was to reduce the 174 from 90 to 80km/hr - there are no other city roads within the City's limit, either provincial or municipal with a 90km/hr speed (Hwy 7, Hwy 16, Hwy 31 as examples) and to reduce the speed within the village area to 60km/hr. This was rejected... even though the city of Rockland recently reduced the speed along the same road to 60km/hr!!!

We are all frustrated with the 174 issue, it is obvious that the city wants out of that road, notice the pot holes near Montreal Rd & Jeanne D'Arc?

[lrt's friend]

So, will we have the extra lanes for buses or not when we shut down the Eastern Transitway?

[Richard Eade]

As it stands now, there will only be two lanes of the OR174 continuing past St. Laurent. If the City does extend the current widening plan, there will still be a bottle-neck at the Cyrville Bridge.

[lrt's friend]

As it stands now, there will only be two lanes of the OR174 continuing past St. Laurent. If the City does extend the current widening plan, there will still be a bottle-neck at the Cyrville Bridge.

So the answer is NO. Sounds like a great plan for Transitway conversion when the vast majority of buses will be travelling through that area.

[Richard Eade]

So the answer is NO. Sounds like a great plan for Transitway conversion when the vast majority of buses will be travelling through that area.
I think the west-bound buses will run along the new extension of the St. Laurent off ramp, that way they are off the OR174 sooner. My best guess would look like this:

http://REade.fileave.com/BRT-LRTConversion/StLaurent-Station-Small.jpg

The blue lines are for west-bound and the fuchsia ones are for east-bound. There are two options for the blue; under St. Laurent before the station or over (dashed line) before the station. I'm not sure of the grade difference between the bus loop and the off ramp. Either way, the west-bound buses cross over St. Laurent at least once. There would be two surface crossings of St. Laurent going east.

[c_speed3108]

I think the west-bound buses will run along the new extension of the St. Laurent off ramp, that way they are off the OR174 sooner. My best guess would look like this:

http://REade.fileave.com/BRT-LRTConversion/StLaurent-Station-Small.jpg

The blue lines are for west-bound and the fuchsia ones are for east-bound. There are two options for the blue; under St. Laurent before the station or over (dashed line) before the station. I'm not sure of the grade difference between the bus loop and the off ramp. Either way, the west-bound buses cross over St. Laurent at least once. There would be two surface crossings of St. Laurent going east.

The grade difference is far too big. I would have to think a bit about other ways of doing things, but I suspect something non-queensway might be needed.

[Richard Eade]

I assume you are referring to the west-bound routing from the St. Laurent exit down to the underpass of St. Laurent as being too steep. The east-bound routing requires no changes to the current configuration.

OK, fair enough. How about the dashed blue route from the off ramp, dropping to the intersection with St. Laurent? The bus would pass across the surface of St. Laurent and into the Transitway Station. Some minor concrete work would be required to allow that to happen. Leaving the station would be on a new ramp to the west, as shown by the dashed blue line.

In order to implement this, I imagine sheet piles being driven on both sides of the shopping centre overpass' east ramp forming steep walls and then the two walls tied together under the roadway. The piles can be driven off peak hours and the ties could be run using micro-boring. There would be minimum disruption to people using the bridge to the shopping centre. Once the wall was in place, a new bus ramp from the off ramp to St. Laurent could be added.

I am suggesting this method because it is a temporary ramp that is needed so there is no point in building it to permanent standards. When the bus ramp is no longer needed, the grading can be restored, leaving the piles in place.

[eternallyme]

The first part of your statement is correct. As for the second statement about speeds, I am a resident of Cumberland Village and we have been pushing to reduce the speeds through Cumberland area. The city completed a speed study and low-and-behold, they say that there is no need to reduce the speed limit...

The proposal from the community association was to reduce the 174 from 90 to 80km/hr - there are no other city roads within the City's limit, either provincial or municipal with a 90km/hr speed (Hwy 7, Hwy 16, Hwy 31 as examples) and to reduce the speed within the village area to 60km/hr. This was rejected... even though the city of Rockland recently reduced the speed along the same road to 60km/hr!!!

We are all frustrated with the 174 issue, it is obvious that the city wants out of that road, notice the pot holes near Montreal Rd & Jeanne D'Arc?

It remains a rural arterial through the village though with only rural residential frontage along 174. Until further development takes place, an 80 km/h speed limit seems reasonable. Rockland has a more suburban design, but even there 60 km/h is probably too low (70 would be best IMO).

The 90 km/h speed on the rural sections is an oddity that dates back to when it was Highway 17 - 17 west of Ottawa through what is now the city (until it was replaced by Highway 417) was also 90 km/h. The amount of residential development on the highway could warrant a reduction to 80 km/h though, but some counties in southern Ontario recently increased many county-maintained roads from 80 to 90 km/h.

[DubberDom]

You have 9 separate intersections (only Cameron Street is signaled) along a 2.8 km stretch of very busy 2-lane road. I count approximately 300 residences that must access the 174 using one of these unsignaled intersection. You also have 18 residences and 1 church directly on that stretch of 174. Most traffic exceed 90km/hr, there is no lighting and the condition of the roadway is not up to safety standards.

[DubberDom]

The idea of a bypass has been floated around since the 174 will not have the capacity to carry population growth for the next 20 years east of Trim. Widening may be an option but when the urban boundary is expanded east of Frank Kenny, this will put added pressure on congestion and need for lower speeds and added intersection requirements, not to mention future growth in Clarence-Rockland.

The province has to take over responsibility for this problem, not the city. 174 needs at least 3 lanes currently and likely 4 lanes out of Orleans to 417, and 2 lane grade separated highway from Trim to beyond Rockland. It would be nearly impossible to do this using the current alignment to achieve this. Hence the idea of a new alignment beyond Orleans more towards the south and connect Rockland and Clarence Creek by the south.

[RTWAP]

But there's more to it than that. It's not like the split is preventing people from driving east to Orleans in the morning. A lot of Kanata's employment is of people living in Kanata as well. Barrhaven is at least as devoid of employment as Orleans, and doesn't even have a decent-sized shopping centre, either. It just seems to me that Kanata managed to capture the imagination of the business community in a way that none of the other suburbs have managed to.

A real opportunity was missed when Nortel expanded their campus in the late 90's. If they had moved to land just west of Barrhaven then it would have been a real boon for the city.

[eternallyme]

The idea of a bypass has been floated around since the 174 will not have the capacity to carry population growth for the next 20 years east of Trim. Widening may be an option but when the urban boundary is expanded east of Frank Kenny, this will put added pressure on congestion and need for lower speeds and added intersection requirements, not to mention future growth in Clarence-Rockland.

The province has to take over responsibility for this problem, not the city. 174 needs at least 3 lanes currently and likely 4 lanes out of Orleans to 417, and 2 lane grade separated highway from Trim to beyond Rockland. It would be nearly impossible to do this using the current alignment to achieve this. Hence the idea of a new alignment beyond Orleans more towards the south and connect Rockland and Clarence Creek by the south.

Residential development that extends well to the south precludes a new alignment. In addition, the presence of Highway 417 to the south for long-distance traffic and low commercial vehicle count makes a rural 4/5-lane arterial workable. Think of Highway 10 from Brampton to Orangeville for a model that I recommend. If congestion or safety becomes too much, then it could slowly be converted to a freeway or a RIRO-expressway on the current alignment.

An interchange at Trim Road should certainly be built though (with a transition from the 4-lane freeway to the 4-lane arterial there), and 6 lanes are probably warranted as far as Place d'Orleans or Tenth Line Road. I don't think there is enough ROW to widen beyond 6 lanes though.

[DubberDom]

The alignment can be done through farmers fields. I saw the alignment that was proposed once, I just took a google map and approximated the alignment route, but I can't upload the file from my office PC Network since the ability is restricted.

Essentially, the route would go from Trim/174 and route up through Frank Kenny to align with Innes and follow that line to the south of Rockland.

The alignment of a 4-lane highway along a river does not meet current environmental and safety guidelines. Furthermore, even if the route is "twinned", there will be no way to grade-separate the road in the future.

[DubberDom]

Here is the alignment they should consider (rough estimation)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4117/4919340051_f644eb9ebf_b.jpg

Even if they twin the existing 174, it will run out of capacity after 10 years with urban expansion beyond 2020 and the anticipated doubling of Rockland's population. There is no way to convert the existing alignment to a grade separated road, all you will get in 10-20 years is a 60km/hr route with traffic lights and some residential and commercial all the way to Cumberland and into Rockland (as it already is along 17 in Rockland). Also, access to Rockland village would be best served by a south entrance, the current Laurier (Main) street is over capacity at Hwy 17.

We need to address the issue before the next review of urban expansion.

By redirecting traffic to a new southern route, that would enable the city to convert the 174 to Cumberland into a nice riverside parkway and improve the quality of life for Cumberland residents

[DubberDom]

Routes 174/17 expansion

After years of delays, plans for the $104 million expansion of routes 174/17 are being stepped up with Ottawa’s transportation committee poised to clear the way for an environmental assessment, a major step toward the completion of the long-overdue project.


Cumberland ward councillor Stephen Blais will table a motion at a transportation committee meeting April 6, urging city officials to use $5 million in provincial funding to move ahead with the environmental assessment. He is confident to get full support from his fellow committee members.

Blais added the motion will be tabled on condition that the provincial government commits to providing funding for the expansion of Hwy 417 between Nicholas exit and the split as well as completing the project by 2015.

Currently, only the portion between the split and Cumberland is part of the city transportation plan.

“The environmental assessment will be included in the updated transportation plan, which is due out in 2013,” said Blais.

Regardless of the environmental assessment findings, the initial plan calls for the enlargement of Regional Road 174 to four lanes between Canaan and Trim roads and to six lanes between Trim Rd. and the split.

In addition, the expansion of Route 174 between the split and Jeanne d’Arc Blvd. should wrap up between 2016 and 2022.

Safer route

The Cumberland councillor feels the 174 expansion is necessary to make the busy thoroughfare safer for the thousands of motorists using it.

“If you look at the Cumberland side (of Route 174), which has one lane in each direction, 260 accidents occurred in the last five or six years,” said Blais. “Six people were killed. And the highway was shut down a dozen times because of these accidents. Every time they close the highway, the traffic is diverted to the village of Cumberland. It’s a very dangerous route.”

As for the expansion of the stretch between Trim Rd. and the split, the elected official says the project would ease traffic congestion at rush hour.

“More importantly, it’s not good for families,” he continued. “Because if you spend 10 minutes in your car, it’s 10 minutes that you don’t spend with your kids or your wife.”

Blais went on to say that even if 60 percent of east enders used public transit, traffic would still be reduced to a crawl. Motorists generally drive at 40 km/h at rush hour on the Queensway between Trim Rd. and the split.

“It’s ridiculous,” added Blais, saying the expansion project will not have a negative impact on the use of public transit. “We will improve public transit. A less expensive, more comfortable way to get downtown faster.”[quote]

[DubberDom]

Although I believe that the expansion of the 174 between Trim and 417 is warranted, the city should opposed any expansion of the 174 east of Trim. The sole purpose of this expansion will be to service growth in Rockland and other communities east of Ottawa, while bringing no benefit to the city of Ottawa except more traffic, at the expense of further destroying the watershed along the river where the highway will expand.

Councillor Blais has his head in a hole on this issue, makes me question who he represents...resident of Ottawa or residents of Rockland?

[Proof Sheet]

The sole purpose of this expansion will be to service growth in Rockland and other communities east of Ottawa, while bringing no benefit to the city of Ottawa except more traffic, at the expense of further destroying the watershed along the river where the highway will expand.


Couldn't agree with you more....this will make it easier to justify more sprawl in Rockland for people who have a job in Ottawa but don't want to pay Ottawa prices for housing etc, but want to spend countless hours commuting to their jobs. In many respects the same goes for the Highway 7 twinning to Carleton Place.

[Dado]

Interesting...



Currently, only the portion between the split and Cumberland is part of the city transportation plan.

“The environmental assessment will be included in the updated transportation plan, which is due out in 2013,” said Blais.

Oh really? So an environmental assessment can precede a change to the Transportation Master Plan, or even be the source of such a change. Funny, because when it comes to transit, the TMP seems to need to be changed first. That was, after all, the primary excuse used during the N-S LRT debacle against extending it to Hurdman.

I guess when it comes to roads, it's "whatever", but when it comes to transit, proceduralism applies.


Regardless of the environmental assessment findings, the initial plan calls for the enlargement of Regional Road 174 to four lanes between Canaan and Trim roads and to six lanes between Trim Rd. and the split.

Wait a moment, "regardless of the environmental assessment findings"? Just what is the point of an environmental assessment then? Oh, right, in the unlikely event that the first one doesn't give you want you want, do another.


“More importantly, it’s not good for families,” he continued. “Because if you spend 10 minutes in your car, it’s 10 minutes that you don’t spend with your kids or your wife.”

I don't know, with boneheaded statements like that, it wouldn't surprise me if his wife would welcome the additional 10 minutes he spends in his car.

[OttSenators]

Here is a new article about the expansion.

http://www.orleansstar.ca/News/Local/2011-04-05/article-2403573/About-face-at-Ottawa-City-Hall/1

[ThePlanner]

"More importantly, it’s not good for families,” he continued. “Because if you spend 10 minutes in your car, it’s 10 minutes that you don’t spend with your kids or your wife."

Good to know Steven Blais still assumes only men go off to work.

Long story short; this poor excuse for a man was elected specifically to widen the 174 all the way to Rockland. If you don't believe me, check his campaign website. I'm fairly certain this was his #1 priority. Despicable, isn't it?

[waterloowarrior]

http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/trc/2011/04-06/disposition6eng.htm
2. OTTAWA ROAD 174 ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT
CUMBERLAND (19)

WHEREAS Ottawa Road 174 is a fundamental transportation link and critical to future growth in Orléans and continuing east; and

WHEREAS to accommodate growth west of Trim Road along OR 174, the City of Ottawa will be completing an Environmental Assessment on the widening of OR 174 from the Highway 417/174 split to Jeanne D’Arc, as identified as a Phase 1 and Phase 2 project in the Transportation Master plan; and

WHEREAS the planned Ministry of Transportation widening of Highway 417 from Nicholas Street to the 417/174 split is anticipated to be completed prior to 2016; and

WHEREAS the City of Ottawa’s Official Plan and Transportation Master Plan does not currently identify the need to widen OR 174 east of Jeanne D’Arc; and

WHEREAS in 2008 the Province of Ontario offered the City of Ottawa $5M to fund an Environmental Assessment for the widening of OR 174 / Prescott Russell Road 17; and

WHEREAS the Provincial offer of $5M is still available;

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Provincial offer of $5M to complete an Environmental Assessment of the widening of OR 174/Prescott Russell Road 17 be utilized under the following conditions:

a) That the widening of Highway 417 to fix the split westerly to Nicholas Street is fully funded with a commitment to implement by 2015;
b) All costs related to the City of Ottawa’s planned Environmental Assessment from 417/174 split easterly to Jeanne D’Arc be drawn from the Provincial offer of $5M;
c) The remaining funds be used to complete the Environmental Assessment of OR 174 / Prescott-Russell Road 17 from Jeanne D’Arc easterly and that the study be borne by the Province or the United Counties of Prescott and Russell with the City providing input on the scope of the study prior to the call for proposals;
d) That the Environmental Assessment from Jeanne D’Arc easterly look at the downstream effect on the City’s infrastructure, and that the study include a cost benefit analysis and a full exploration of all alternatives; and,
e) That the Environmental Assessment from Jeanne D’Arc easterly requires final approval by City of Ottawa Council.

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the results of the Environmental Study for the widening of OR 174 from Jeanne D’Arc easterly be considered and incorporated into the City’s updated Transportation Master Plan.

CARRIED

[adam-machiavelli]

Ex-urban sprawl brought to you by councillor Blais.

[Requin]

Although I believe that the expansion of the 174 between Trim and 417 is warranted, the city should opposed any expansion of the 174 east of Trim. The sole purpose of this expansion will be to service growth in Rockland and other communities east of Ottawa, while bringing no benefit to the city of Ottawa except more traffic, at the expense of further destroying the watershed along the river where the highway will expand.


Completely agree with this as well. If the expansion east of Trim goes ahead, Rockland should pay for it. There are only negative implications for Ottawa. It's quite infuriating, actually.

[OttSenators]

Completely agree with this as well. If the expansion east of Trim goes ahead, Rockland should pay for it. There are only negative implications for Ottawa. It's quite infuriating, actually.


I Disagree.

One main reason for the expansion out there is safety. There have been 260 of accidents over the past 5 years, and widening the highway out there would help to stop them. 6 people have died.

[ThePlanner]

There's other better ways to make a road safer than just by widening it. In fact, you could argue that widening the road makes it even less safer by encouraging more traffic and more polluting emissions. Better ways to make the road safer include lowering the speed limit, eliminating dangerous turns, and increasing mass transit access along the route.

[Deez]

I Disagree.

One main reason for the expansion out there is safety. There have been 260 of accidents over the past 5 years, and widening the highway out there would help to stop them. 6 people have died.

If someone were to run the numbers on this I would wager that this section of highway is no less dangerous per veh-km traveled than any other 2 lane highway in the province. But who am I kidding, no one will.

This, and the rest of the highway widening plans slated for Ottawa, will completely eliminate the already slim chance of hitting the city's 30% peak hour transit mode share mark. Barring any extreme cost shifts, how can you possibly expect to increase transit patronage while reducing auto travel times and not improving transit travel time?

[reidjr]

There's other better ways to make a road safer than just by widening it. In fact, you could argue that widening the road makes it even less safer by encouraging more traffic and more polluting emissions. Better ways to make the road safer include lowering the speed limit, eliminating dangerous turns, and increasing mass transit access along the route.

Its not a matter of encouraging traffic the thing is the traffic is there it would not really be new traffic widening would just improve the current system which is needed.As for lowering the speed limit that would just add to the issue some would say it would make it far worse and cause many other issues.As for mass transit that is what maybe 30 years away something needs to be done now to make this raod better and easier for people to use.

[Richard Eade]

Maybe there is an incentive to use public transit, but it is being built by the MTO for the City; the Cyrville Bridge. As I mentioned before (and I have seen nothing about it being changed), the new bridge is being re-built to only have TWO west-bound lanes of the OR174 pass under it.

http://reade.fileave.com/OR174Lanes/Cyrville-Bridge.jpg

From north to south, under the new Cyrville Bridge we will have; traffic destined for St. Laurent will take the new (separated) ramp, which is an extension of the 417-south/east ramp; there will be two west-bound OR174 lanes; then the two west-bound 417 lanes. The gore area of the merging OR174 and 417 lanes extends to west of the bridge so under the bridge, the lanes remain separate as 2+2 lanes. Heading east, the MTO is moving the south abutment so there will be two OR174 lanes and two PLUS a new third 417 lane (2+3 lanes total).

At least east-bound, the MTO has added room for an additional 417 lane, but there will still only be room under the bridge for TWO OR174 lanes per direction. As I said before, the City can widen the OR174 to ten lanes per direction, but for the next 65-70 years, there will be only two lanes per direction going under that bridge.

This bottle-neck will also affect the bus traffic during the conversion to rail since buses will be expected to run on the OR174/417. The MTO is adding new lanes to the 417 from Nicholas to the west side of the Cyrville Bridge (to the east of Cyrville Bridge in the east/south-bound direction), but there will still be just two lanes in each direction under the bridge for the OR174. Buses leaving Blair along the OR174 will have to merge with the congestion to get under this bridge.

As far as the MTO is concerned, this makes sense since the section of 417 between Nicholas and 'the split' will be increased to four lanes basic through lanes. There will be fifth lanes in places between St. Laurent and Nicholas, but these are considered auxiliary lanes and are to function primarily as speed-change lanes for ramps. So, as far as the MTO is concerned, two OR174 + two 417 lanes ensures the smoothest traffic flow.

Basically, the Cyrville Bridge is being used to throttle the west-bound OR174 traffic so that it does not over-load the 417.

It seems to me to be a shame. The St. Laurent overpass is being widened by the MTO so that there are four lanes across it. The City should be asking for a design that allows the City to add an additional lane in the future to bring the bridge up to five lanes per direction. For this minimal cost, there would then be five full lanes between the split and the Vanier Parkway/Riverside interchange. The only thing standing in the way of such a plan is the limit imposed by the new Cyrville Bridge.

[eternallyme]

Really, I don't know why 174/old 17 is not a provincial highway. That was one of the dumbest decommissionings in all of Ontario.

[Mille Sabords]

I Disagree.

One main reason for the expansion out there is safety. There have been 260 of accidents over the past 5 years, and widening the highway out there would help to stop them. 6 people have died.

Well, if you don't wanna die, don't go live so far or don't drive so fast.

Sorry, this highway widening for "safety reasons" has to be the most morally dishonest argument for sprawl under the sun. It's amazing they still even use it. People drive like nutbars on the highways because they live far and because they want to get home faster and because there's always traffic and because they'll catch any hole in that traffic to gain 10 seconds or pass that one SUV that is blocking their view, etc, etc.

Society shouldn't have to pay for wider freeways because the people of Rockland want to get home sooner.

[eternallyme]

It's all because of economics. Housing is considerably cheaper in Clarence-Rockland than it is in Ottawa, and that makes thousands of people want to live there and commute to Ottawa every day. And those people DO contribute to the commercial and industrial tax base of Ottawa.

Starting a war between municipalities is what caused numerous American cities to hit the dumpsters. Detroit and its suburbs, for example, have been in a constant war with terrible relations for decades.

[Requin]

It's all because of economics. Housing is considerably cheaper in Clarence-Rockland than it is in Ottawa, and that makes thousands of people want to live there and commute to Ottawa every day. And those people DO contribute to the commercial and industrial tax base of Ottawa.


Completely agree that cheaper housing is a large incentive here. As to the contribution to Ottawa's tax base, it is marginal at best. This small contribution is likely decreasing as well. With the growth Rockland has seen in the past several years, it's no longer necessary to drive to Ottawa for shopping, dining, leisure/recreation, entertainment, etc. It's mostly all available within the Clarence-Rockland community now. So while they clog up the 174 and take up space at the Park and Ride that Ottawa residents pay for, who cares that they also bought a coffee and a sandwich while at work that day?

[DubberDom]

emails from Stephen Blais on the issue of Speed limit review on 174, his lack of knowledge on the status of the 174 is really disturbing, calling it a "provincial highway"... it is not, it is a Regional Arterial Road as defined by the city of Ottawa, and speed limits for such roads are supposed to be 80km/hr, not 90.

Thank you for providing additional comments regarding the potential expansion of Highway 174.



At this time, I do not support lowering the speed limit of Highway 174 to 60km/h through the Cumberland Village corridor. In your email you mentioned the near fatal collision this morning when a minivan attempted to pass a 5-ton truck. I must highlight that traffic studies have proven that when speed limits are lowered to levels that are not appropriate for the road type (in this case a provincial highway), more cars will attempt to pass other vehicles raising the opportunities for accidents and negating any safety gains made by lowering the speed limit.



I continue to believe that an EA study is required to look at the feasibility of expanding Highway 174 to improve traffic flow.



Once again, thank you for taking the time to write.



Yours very truly,



Stephen Blais

City Councillor

Cumberland

[DubberDom]

Here is another email... not sure where to start on this one.....

Thank you for your email regarding the expansion of Highway 174 through Cumberland Village; your feedback is important to me.



While I appreciate the concerns you have raised, I have to disagree with some of the conclusions you have made in your assessment of the road widening.



Environmental impact:

Adding two more lanes along the highway corridor to speed up existing traffic flow, in my opinion, will not lead to significant environmental problems (if any). However instead of providing our opinions absent of data, it is important that the City of Ottawa conduct a proper environmental assessment study so that residents, planners, and all other stakeholders can discuss this proposal in an intelligent and informed manner.



Economic development:

The Cumberland Village Community Association has been involved in a visioning exercise with the City’s planning department. During this process, concerns have been raised by the community about the lack of economic development within the village.



The two main barriers to furthering economic development within the village are; water supply and transit. Businesses are generally not interested in locating in areas where there are aesthetic problems with the local drinking water supply. Additionally, businesses are not interested in locating within communities where consumers cannot easily travel to purchase their product.



With the widening of Highway174 through the Cumberland Village corridor to Rockland, the City would be able to expand water and sewer infrastructure to the edge of the village boundary. This would allow residents and businesses to hook into a modern water/sewer system at minimal cost. The widening of the highway will also provide quick and easy access to businesses within Cumberland Village and encourage future growth.



As of this moment, residents in Rockland are leaving home as early as 5:30am and are getting home as late as 7pm due to congestion issues. I’m sure you would agree that residents who are spending up to 4 hours a day in traffic are not interested in extending their commute by stopping in the village for their family needs. Nor would medium sized businesses want to limit their potential financial gains by restricting themselves to a large customer base due the fact that their business is not conveniently located or accessible by car.



Social impact:

I believe the social impacts of low job growth within the village, which thereby lead to a steady exodus of young village residents to Orléans and elsewhere in Ottawa, are far greater than the extra few feet of asphalt that will separate the few residents who live on the north side of Highway 174. During the municipal election, I met dozens of young couples who grew up within Cumberland village but have since decided to move to Avalon or more western communities due to traffic congestion issues and lack of employment opportunities within the village. This to me was disappointing; young families were willing and ready to remain within the village to raise their children and yet, due to circumstances within the City’s control, decided to move elsewhere.



Ring road:

The East end needs solutions to traffic congestion NOW. A ring road for the East end, while an interesting concept, is not a practical solution at this time. A ring road would require countless years of study, far more money to build than expanding Highway 174, and would move traffic congestion issues from a provincial highway to a suburban collector road (Innes).



It is important to note that plans were put in place by the former Township of Cumberland to eventually widen Highway 174. The former township established these plans knowing full well what the effects would be to the community. Nearly 30 years have passed since that time; traffic congestion has worsened, and economic development has remained neutral. The time has come to act.



During the municipal election, I spent nearly a year canvassing tens of thousands of residents across the ward, including Cumberland village. The feedback I received from the vast majority of residents was supportive to the idea of widening Highway 174. I campaigned on a pledge to have the City of Ottawa undertake an Environmental Assessment study on this proposal. I intend to see that study completed.



Once again thank you for taking the time to make your views known. Please do not hesitate to contact me in the future.



Yours very truly,



Stephen Blais

City Councillor

Cumberland

[DarkArconio]

It's worth noting that OR 174 past trim is the former provincial highway 17, and I believe that it was built and initially owned by the federal government. Regardless, it was built as part of the trans canada highway network, and thus the design standards are at 90 km/h, much like the 17 past arnprior or the 7 past carleton place. The councillor may have just called it a provincial level highway in terms of standards, not a provincially owned highway.

[DubberDom]

"HIGHWAY 16" AND "HIGHWAY 31" within the current city limits were also provincial highways at one point, but now known as Prince of Wales (RR44) and Bank Street, and no longer fall under provincial jurisdiction (same as 17/174).

Regional Route 174 is not only an arterial route, it is also a residential street as well as a quite a few unsignaled level crossing for many small feeder streets.

Highway 7 after Carlton Place has a posted speed limit of 80km/hr, and 60 through most villages. The 174 has a posted speed of 90 and 80 through the village of Cumberland.

There is no other 2-lane road within the city's jurisdiction with a 90km/hr posted limit, and under provincial jurisdiction, there are also very few 2-lane portions except in Northern Ontario with 90 sped limit

Take 138 to Cornwall as an example, the road is straight as an arrow with wide shoulders... speed limit? 80

[Luker]

negative, southern ontario is filled with dozns of two lane highways that are set at 90km/h, however some are 80km/h....

[DarkArconio]

The entire length of the 17 is posted at 90 as part of the trans canada highway, with the possible exception of parts that pass through villages and towns. The point is that OR 174, the former trans canada highway, was posted at 90 before being downloaded to the city.

This isn't to say that the speed shouldn't be decreased, particularly through cumberland, but rather that the posted speed isn't some sort of aberration.

It's not really a residential street either, but rather a major regional rural highway that like many others has all sorts of development on it and intersections with traffic flow in largely one direction not warranting full lights.

Also, the comparison to urban roads like bank, or even prince of wales which is practically saturated with residential development, is not really valid. There's a reason the 416 was built to replace prince of wales as the provincial highway.

[DubberDom]

negative, southern ontario is filled with dozns of two lane highways that are set at 90km/h, however some are 80km/h....

The posted speed limit on most rural Ontario King's Highways is 80 km/h (50 mph). Those portions of the King's Highways that have been upgraded to expressways or freeways generally have a posted speed limit of 90 km/h or 100 km/h. A handful of major highways in Northern Ontario have a posted speed limit of 90 km/h (56 mph). The posted speed limit on most rural portions of Hwy 11, Hwy 17, Hwy 17A, Hwy 61, Hwy 66, Hwy 69, and Hwy 102 is 90 km/h. The rural sections of Hwy 101 from Wawa to the Hwy 647 junction, and from Timmins to Matheson are posted at 90 km/h. The Sudbury Bypass portion of Hwy 144 has a 90 km/h limit. Also, a limited portion of Hwy 71 from Nestor Falls southerly to Emo is posted at 90 km/h. All urbanized and built-up areas along these highways will have lower speed limits imposed. Watch carefully for signs indicating a change in speed limit!
source:
http://www.thekingshighway.ca/intro.html

[DubberDom]

Also, the comparison to urban roads like bank, or even prince of wales which is practically saturated with residential development, is not really valid. There's a reason the 416 was built to replace prince of wales as the provincial highway.

The same reason why the current 2-lane section of the 174 should not be widened to 4 lanes. Just as they did with the 416, a re-alignment of an eastern corridor beyond Orleans is the only option