[someone123]

This thread is for discussion of the renovations and new buildings planned for Fenwick Tower and adjacent lands.

Location: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=54.79724,131.748047&ie=UTF8&ll=44.638082,-63.575059&spn=0.003042,0.008041&t=h&z=18

Old thread: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=152348

[Ramako]

I was at the open house for this yesterday (my gf lives in Fenwick) and the NIMBYism seemed amazingly restrained. I think most of the neighbours were slightly concerned by the increase density and massing, but appreciated how much of an improvement this would be over the current state of affairs.

The developer did a good job of explaining the though process that went into the various design elements, such as the curved roof.

[hfx_chris]

Would have been beter to have moved the thread, rather than create a new one and cross-link back to the old one.

[Jonovision]

Would have been beter to have moved the thread, rather than create a new one and cross-link back to the old one.

I would agree. It's a pain to have to repost the images again, and I can't even copy the txt from the previous thread.

[Jonovision]

Oh and in response to a question regarding the basement Joe sent me this to post:

hey jon.. just saw on skyscraper that someone was asking about the structure and basement.. fyi we're already in the process (since july) of a 2 million$ hydro demolition and re shoring the entire 3 underground levels of parking, by this spring the 3 underground levels will be completely brand new concrete structures with new re-inforced rebar slabs and columns (no additional columns the concrete is basically being blasted down to the rebar, and new rebar is being installed, and then the columns and slabs are all being re poured).. we already have about 25% of the underground parking upgraded..

thanks




And in talking with lots of the people there I was surprised the the amount of people who knew about this page. All of Napiers people were talking to me about it. They said they were reading here and liked the critiques and feedback. So don't think that we go unnoticed here.

[Takeo]

Not sure why we need a new thread, but here are my pics again... taken at the Open House last night. These are much higher resolution than what's on the Facebook Group. There were a ton of boards so I just shot a few of the more representative ones.

To orient yourself, the townhouses are on Fenwick St. The arced roof over the mechanical penthouse "opens" towards South St.

- First sketch is looking from Fenwick Street.
- Second is looking from South Street.
- Third is from Fenwick again (note the townhouses).
- Forth is just an interesting early sketch. A small thumbnail from a larger board (macro mode is your friend... as is a point and shoot camera with a bright enough lens to shoot indoors without a flash).

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2727/4118827708_796450046a_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2700/4118057641_528d79399b_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2506/4118827102_e4b1a37207_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2741/4118826802_25c6bbe038_b.jpg

[Empire]

Oh and in response to a question regarding the basement Joe sent me this to post:

hey jon.. just saw on skyscraper that someone was asking about the structure and basement.. fyi we're already in the process (since july) of a 2 million$ hydro demolition and re shoring the entire 3 underground levels of parking, by this spring the 3 underground levels will be completely brand new concrete structures with new re-inforced rebar slabs and columns (no additional columns the concrete is basically being blasted down to the rebar, and new rebar is being installed, and then the columns and slabs are all being re poured).. we already have about 25% of the underground parking upgraded..

thanks




And in talking with lots of the people there I was surprised the the amount of people who knew about this page. All of Napiers people were talking to me about it. They said they were reading here and liked the critiques and feedback. So don't think that we go unnoticed here.

That is a good point. Maybe this link should be sent to all the developers if someone were to be so inclined?

[Keith P.]

It's a shame that the writing on the sketches is so illegible.

[Dmajackson]

It's a shame that the writing on the sketches is so illegible.

Yah it looks like my mom's handwriting (and shes a doctor).

I quite like the full rendering. With the new slanted roof perhaps added a bit of height Halifax could have a 100m+ building in the future (King's Wharf pending).

[hfx_chris]

It's a shame that the writing on the sketches is so illegible.
That's writing??
I thought they were just trying to be artsy...

[planarchy]

Fenwick tower 'unrecognizable' under development plan
Last Updated: Friday, November 20, 2009 | 7:51 AM AT
CBC News

A conceptual drawing of Fenwick Tower. Developers have unveiled their plans to turn a 40-year-old concrete tower in Halifax's south end into a modern, glass-covered apartment complex.

Dozens of people came out to a public meeting Thursday night to see what Templeton Properties Ltd. has planned for Fenwick Place.

At 33 storeys, the former Dalhousie University student residence is as ugly as it is tall, said neighbour Rebecca Jameson.

"Our preferred option is to tear the whole thing down and have something really nice in the spot," Jameson said.

The building won't be demolished. But it will be "unrecognizable" after the $100-million renovation, said Joe Metlege, with Templeton Properties.

"The only thing that will be remaining of Fenwick tower is the skeleton," he said. "The entire building from the inside out will be completely gutted and it will be completely recladded."

As Fenwick Place, the building served as a residence for students at Dalhousie University. (CBC)The plan also calls for two new buildings next door, townhouses in front and a pedestrian walkway.

Leanne Yoshida, who works next door, welcomes the change.

"My first impression is that just changing the outside will be so exciting. But then all the other stuff they're doing on the street level is also great," said Yoshida.

But Jameson isn't pleased with the plan to have the building's facade extend out 11 metres.

"Because the mass of the tower is the single biggest problem with the building, making it bigger doesn't necessarily resonate with the neighbours," she said.

Templeton Properties has been consulting with the community for months. The company plans to file a development application by early January.

The project will need the approval of Halifax regional council to proceed.

[someone123]

Moving the thread could have worked, but there was a lot of old discussion of the sale etc. and this way there are immediate details about the actual project. I meant to add a quote at the top of the post with the renderings but got sidetracked yesterday and they've since been reposted.

Some people are going to be unreasonable and complain about the project but I'm guessing that most will be very happy with it. Visually it will be far less oppressive with glass cladding and no height is being added. The street level modifications are things most people don't have a problem with, and they shouldn't because this will make the block much more attractive than it is now. In the long run this would be a good project even for somebody living right across the street.

[fenwick16]

Oh and in response to a question regarding the basement Joe sent me this to post:

hey jon.. just saw on skyscraper that someone was asking about the structure and basement.. fyi we're already in the process (since july) of a 2 million$ hydro demolition and re shoring the entire 3 underground levels of parking, by this spring the 3 underground levels will be completely brand new concrete structures with new re-inforced rebar slabs and columns (no additional columns the concrete is basically being blasted down to the rebar, and new rebar is being installed, and then the columns and slabs are all being re poured).. we already have about 25% of the underground parking upgraded..

thanks


Thanks for the information. I had to read your post a couple of times and refer to Wikipedia before I understood that "hydro demolition" was a method of removing old concrete. Maybe this is common knowledge in the construction industry but for those who have not heard of it, here is the Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrodemolition .

[Takeo]

With regards to making the tower bigger (the build-out on the Fenwick Street side)... I was speaking to one of the Architects involved and she pointed out that the existing south wall is a big ugly blank concrete face. So the idea there is to take advantage of the south light and views by designing a glass clad addition. Not to mention presenting a much lighter and more "human" face to the street. This bump out adds more interesting detail and breaks up the verticality of the tower since it won't be the full height of the building. It's a good thing. The sketches also suggest perhaps a rooftop garden / lookout on top of this addition. Lots of great ideas.

The logical question would be, why not just reclad the south wall as is? I did not think to ask that question... but my GUESS is that this might be a shear wall. If that's the case... it's structural. The west and east walls are clearly just concrete curtain walls that can be re-clad at will. But the north and south walls may be shear walls.

[fenwick16]

With regards to making the tower bigger (the build-out on the Fenwick Street side)... I was speaking to one of the Architects involved and she pointed out that the existing south wall is a big ugly blank concrete face. So the idea there is to take advantage of the south light and views by designing a glass clad addition. Not to mention presenting a much lighter and more "human" face to the street. This bump out adds more interesting detail and breaks up the verticality of the tower since it won't be the full height of the building. It's a good thing. The sketches also suggest perhaps a rooftop garden / lookout on top of this addition. Lots of great ideas.

The logical question would be, why not just reclad the south wall as is? I did not think to ask that question... but my GUESS is that this might be a shear wall. If that's the case... it's structural. The west and east walls are clearly just concrete curtain walls that can be re-clad at will. But the north and south walls may be shear walls.
From the information that I have read on this forum, a stairwell will be added to this section to add a second fire route. However, maybe I misunderstood.

[Jonovision]

From the information that I have read on this forum, a stairwell will be added to this section to add a second fire route. However, maybe I misunderstood.

You are correct. I'm pretty sure there is only one stairwell in the building now, so a new one will be added.

[Jonovision]

Here are the renderings from the other thread.

http://inlinethumb32.webshots.com/34719/2750925980096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2750925980096709958KIKnDD)

http://inlinethumb05.webshots.com/32132/2638022720096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2638022720096709958eleRWn)

http://inlinethumb07.webshots.com/10438/2505624110096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2505624110096709958pfZWDM)

http://inlinethumb06.webshots.com/11589/2299138120096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2299138120096709958poMzrn)

http://inlinethumb50.webshots.com/2929/2913462170096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2913462170096709958ErDbZw)

http://inlinethumb01.webshots.com/46272/2199946540096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2199946540096709958DBUjpO)

http://inlinethumb30.webshots.com/26269/2838948880096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2838948880096709958evuYHb)

[JET]

Thanks for the information. I had to read your post a couple of times and refer to Wikipedia before I understood that "hydro demolition" was a method of removing old concrete. Maybe this is common knowledge in the construction industry but for those who have not heard of it, here is the Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrodemolition .

The blasting: this week there's been 3 loud toots on a horn, followed by a boom. I can feel my desk shake on the 6th floor of the VG hospital !
Must be something to be right next door to fenwick. Got to love that bedrock. JET

[beyeas]

The blasting: this week there's been 3 loud toots on a horn, followed by a boom. I can feel my desk shake on the 6th floor of the VG hospital !
Must be something right next door to fenwick. Got to love that bedrock. JET

oh THAT'S what that is! I could hear the horn from my backyard on Walnut street, and had no idea what it was for (because I am too far away to feel the rumble afterwards).

[fenwick16]

It sounds like hydro-demolition is similar to a very high pressure water spray. I wouldn't think that it would make much noise or any load booms unless something gave way. I know that very high pressure water can be used for cutting through inch-thick metal (water jet cutting). Hydro-demolition might be a similar type of process.

[Jonovision]

I meant to post this the other night. Joe sent me this article from Allnovascotia.com.
I don't have access to the site so this is the only way I can post it. But good news is it seems the Heritage Trust, or at least their new president is endorsing the plan for Fenwick.

http://inlinethumb55.webshots.com/42550/2617370890096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2617370890096709958YDAvuI)

http://inlinethumb03.webshots.com/43778/2276379070096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2276379070096709958QvdDLA)

http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/45101/2359855990096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2359855990096709958nVZmSs)

[Takeo]

Small error in that article... the glass facade will not "cover up" the concrete... it will replace it.

[someone123]

From what I've heard, Peter Delefes seems much more reasonable than Phil Pacey.

There's very little to complain about when it comes to this proposal, unless you happen to be a lover of tired looking 70s concrete.

It probably helps to have the new apartment building nearby as well. I don't find that building particularly attractive but it is at least proof that something of that size can be built there without having much impact on the area.

[digitboy]

That is an extreme makeover. Wow, this tower will be amazing once its been renovated. Do you guys know when this will actually take place? Is it expected to start soon ?

[Jonovision]

The developers are trying to push it through the city as quickly as possible. Development applications normally take upwards of 18 months to be fully processed, but this one might be sped up if possible.

[Jonovision]

There is a new vid created explaining the process so far on this development. It's posted on their facebook page. Quite well done in my opinion.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=212844505210

[Halifax Hillbilly]

From what I've heard, Peter Delefes seems much more reasonable than Phil Pacey.

Seems to be. Although is there no one else in town to get an opinion from on urban development? I mean the Heritage Trust "blessing"? There is an architecture and planning school in the city, and a design school.

[worldlyhaligonian]

There is a new vid created explaining the process so far on this development. It's posted on their facebook page. Quite well done in my opinion.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=212844505210

Amazing, its gonna look sick in the skyline.

[worldlyhaligonian]

That is an extreme makeover. Wow, this tower will be amazing once its been renovated. Do you guys know when this will actually take place? Is it expected to start soon ?

I think it will happen, the progression has been good since it was sold by Dal and it must be a good revenue stream for cash to keep things going once approved.

This one is a no brainer, the current site and tower are one of the major remaining eyesores in Halifax.

[Dmajackson]

This project is starting the approval process;

Case 15937 - MPS/LUB Ammendments, 5599 Fenwick Street (http://www.halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/100309ca1111.pdf)

[Nordheimer_87]

Here's Spacing Atlantic's most recent article on the Fenwick Redevelopment.

http://spacingatlantic.ca/2010/03/08/fenwick-developer-seeks-to-set-new-precedent-in-halifax/

[sdm]

there was an article in allnovascotia today stating the city has advised the developer that their intentions to amend the LUB may take up to 2 years, which seems to be long, but it does take considerable time to process a LUB.

[worldlyhaligonian]

there was an article in allnovascotia today stating the city has advised the developer that their intentions to amend the LUB may take up to 2 years, which seems to be long, but it does take considerable time to process a LUB.

This seems like a long term development though, given how the developer has continued to renovate and rent the building... so I think there a better economic timeline to get the ammendments passed and not go bankrupt.

[sdm]

This seems like a long term development though, given how the developer has continued to renovate and rent the building... so I think there a better economic timeline to get the ammendments passed and not go bankrupt.

True enough, but any substainal improvement to the building requires the building to be brought to todays codes. Herein lies the issue as it would be extremely costly without the increase development footprint.

In the end, even with delays, it could be uneconomical.

[fenwick16]

True enough, but any substainal improvement to the building requires the building to be brought to todays codes. Herein lies the issue as it would be extremely costly without the increase development footprint.

In the end, even with delays, it could be uneconomical.

So what is the solution? Tear it down? The developers are trying to do something positive for the HRM by refurbishing an eyesore and bring it up to code by adding an additional stairway. Do you think that after spending millions for this building that it would be fair to force the developers into bankruptcy by having this process drag out for years. The HRM councillors should be treating developers like customers who should be appreciated and pampered, not harassed.

Is this democracy? The residents were overwhelmingly in favour of this project. Once again the South End anti-development forces strike.

PS: The developers could simply fix this up without doing anything additional, such as add a second stairway, since this was approved decades ago as it is.

[kph06]

Is this democracy? The residents were overwhelmingly in favour of this project. Once again the South End anti-development forces strike

I've grown up and lived in the south end my whole life and I find you're blind labeling of the south end as anti development in this thread and the City Centre thread as ignorant and rather annoying. Yes, its unfortunate the Pacey's and the rest of the Heritage Trust sideshow predominately have peninsular addresses but they are in the minority. It's just they have the time to make this obstructionism their fulltime job. Most people around here favor development and realize it is for the betterment of the city.

As far as this development is concerned I hardly feel its the South-End putting the kybosh to it, besides a few neighbors who may object to new buildings encroaching on their land. I think the city has embraced this project as Fenwick Place has been considered an eyesore and sometimes the brunt of jokes for some years now. It sounds like the delay is due to the scope of the project because it will require some amendments from the city, and from what I've seen of Templelton Properties they don't move very fast either, and are probably making sure they have all their ducks in a row before they proceed.

[fenwick16]

I've grown up and lived in the south end my whole life and I find you're blind labeling of the south end as anti development in this thread and the City Centre thread as ignorant and rather annoying. Yes, its unfortunate the Pacey's and the rest of the Heritage Trust sideshow predominately have peninsular addresses but they are in the minority. It's just they have the time to make this obstructionism their fulltime job. Most people around here favor development and realize it is for the betterment of the city.

I agree with what you are saying. My apologies to South Enders who do not fit my stereotype. My real problem is with the minority who seem to have power far in excess of their numbers. This is not how democracy works.

With regards to Fenwick Towers I know for a fact that one councilor would like to see it torn down.

[-Harlington-]

With regards to Fenwick Towers I know for a fact that one councilor would like to see it torn down.

thats ridiculous tearing it down would take incredibly long it is the tallest building in the city, and look at the area its in
you really think they would want to listen to that for as long as it takes to take it down.
no, i think this redevelopment is definitely the best way to go it has so many positives and will pay off in the long run.

[Haliguy]

Two developments cleared to proceed in metro
Doug Cogswell Mar 10, 2010 07:05:18 AM
Be the first to Comment 0 Recommendation(s) Two separate development projects will be taking the next step in the downtown.

City Hall unanimously agreed to allow development plans for Fenwick Tower proposal to enter the public initiation stage.

Councillor Sue Uteck explains.

"The community was comfortable to initiate staff to say 'let's have the support and go forward,'" she said. "There will always be changes somewhere along the line, but I think in the end it could be a win-win for the neighbourhood. There might be changes or there might be no changes."

The proposal has two additional buildings flanking Fenwick Tower, ground-level shops as well as apartments and townhouses.

The contentious plan to develop the City Centre Atlantic building on Spring Garden Road also got a green light during council's meeting yesterday afternoon.

Councillor Dawn Sloane explains council has agreed to send the proposed development of the City Centre Atlantic building to a public hearing.

"At this point in time there are individuals who live in Heritage Way, which is a condo corporation on the north side of the development block. It was phase two of the actual development that happened there," she said. "City Centre Atlantic was number one then of course it was Heritage Way and this is the third phase."

She says a lot of people in Heritage Way argue the development will ruin their view.

[fenwick16]

Two developments cleared to proceed in metro
Doug Cogswell Mar 10, 2010 07:05:18 AM
Two separate development projects will be taking the next step in the downtown.

City Hall unanimously agreed to allow development plans for Fenwick Tower proposal to enter the public initiation stage.

Councillor Sue Uteck explains.

"The community was comfortable to initiate staff to say 'let's have the support and go forward,'" she said. "There will always be changes somewhere along the line, but I think in the end it could be a win-win for the neighbourhood. There might be changes or there might be no changes."

The proposal has two additional buildings flanking Fenwick Tower, ground-level shops as well as apartments and townhouses.

Thank you Sue Utech.
The contentious plan to develop the City Centre Atlantic building on Spring Garden Road also got a green light during council's meeting yesterday afternoon.

Councillor Dawn Sloane explains council has agreed to send the proposed development of the City Centre Atlantic building to a public hearing.


This is what gets me. Why does it require a public hearing? It is the third phase of a development.

[DigitalNinja]

I think the "phase 3" is being loosely used here.
I don't believe that this was ever brought up that this addition would take place when the building was built which is why it needs to go through the approval process.
Good news on Fenwick though, the NIMBYS wont be able to bring this one down, so help me over my dead body.

[Jonovision]

From my talks with the people at Templeton, it is my understanding that they want to proceed as quickly as possible. And the fact that the majority of the community was directly involved in the design will make a big difference when it comes to the public hearing. It allows them to take ownership of the proposal unlike many other developments we have seen.

[-Harlington-]

from my understanding most of this development and the talks around it are generally positive and i think pretty much everyone in the city would like to see this instead of what is there now.

[sdm]

I think the "phase 3" is being loosely used here.
I don't believe that this was ever brought up that this addition would take place when the building was built which is why it needs to go through the approval process.
Good news on Fenwick though, the NIMBYS wont be able to bring this one down, so help me over my dead body.

I thought this was MPS amendment for the pennisula south district, as well as a Land use bylaw change via development agreement. To change MPS requires a lot more effort and will have public input because it will affect the area as a whole. That and i believe the LUB/Development agreement will have public input as well as HRM by design does not cover this area.

So therefore the NIMBYS are capable of bringing this one down if the above case is true.

[fenwick16]

I am sure that there is at least one councillor helping the NIMBYS. If this drags on too long then I wonder if Templeton Properties will just give up. Then the NIMBYS will get what they deserve a 33 story concrete slab in their backyard. Obviously it won't be torn down.

A legal question comes to mind; if a councillor purposely obstructs this from moving forwards and causes financial difficulties for Templeton Properties then can they take legal action against that councillor? Are there any lawyers out there who can answer this question?

[sdm]

I am sure that there is at least one councillor helping the NIMBYS. If this drags on too long then I wonder if Templeton Properties will just give up. Then the NIMBYS will get what they deserve a 33 story concrete slab in their backyard. Obviously it won't be torn down.

A legal question comes to mind; if a councillor purposely obstructs this from moving forwards and causes financial difficulties for Templeton Properties then can they take legal action against that councillor? Are there any lawyers out there who can answer this question?

they would have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt to even have a chance. Besides, there is always the UARB.

But that is why we have more then one councillor, so one doesn't have the absolute power to turn the vote negative. Often councillors opinions influence others which will cause a swing vote. But there is little one can do about this except for taking the decision to UARB.

But thats the risks a developer, and really any business owner takes. The developer in this case isn't losing money if it isn't approved. They simply can't increase the development density to spread the renovation costs over a greater area is all. If the developer choses to reclad and do finish upgrades to the building internally they could avoid bringing the building upto current codes. It is only substainial changes that brings new codes into play. The bulding would be grandfathered now.

Anyone who took on this project knew there was going to be a hard road ahead.

[fenwick16]

I just wonder why there wasn't a strong voice against HRM by Design. This was pushed through as a way to speed up the development process and as a sensible criteria for development. But basically it is one more restriction against high rise buildings except that unlike the view planes bylaws it covers the entire downtown area. The anti-development forces pulled a fast one on the residents of Halifax. They just introduced one more piece of legislation against development. I am sure that Sloane was involved in this one. I hope that she will never become Mayor. She is just a wolf in sheep's clothing. Way to go Sloane, drive some more business away from Halifax. Sloane, tell us how you support a stadium in Halifax. LOL.

Why don't all of these anti-development groups just move to a retirement community in Florida and leave the HRM and Nova Scotia to the majority who need jobs.

[Jonovision]

Please do not put comments like that on this forum. We are all here to discuss developments and their effects on this city. We are not here to bash one another.

[planarchy]

I just wonder why there wasn't a strong voice against HRM by Design. This was pushed through as a way to speed up the development process and as a sensible criteria for development. But basically it is one more restriction against high rise buildings except that unlike the view planes bylaws it covers the entire downtown area. The anti-development forces pulled a fast one on the residents of Halifax. They just introduced one more piece of legislation against development. I am sure that Sloane was involved in this one. I hope that she will never become Mayor. She is just a wolf in sheep's clothing. Way to go Sloane, drive some more business away from Halifax. Sloane, tell us how you support a stadium in Halifax. LOL.

By the way Sloane I went to Halifax City Hall (January 18 2010) and I am still here on SSP and my HalifaxStadium.ca website is still up (contrary to your threats - when are you going to start bad mouthing me like you threatened when I was in Halifax). You said that you don't want people to be contacting city hall about a stadium (I am paraphrasing). Next step - make sure that you never become Mayor. But I will do it with the truth - no tricks. Let people know how you are driving jobs from the HRM. And how you would like to have Fenwick Towers torn down. If Templeton Properties would like any help in court then they can contact me. I heard it first hand, from the wolf's mouth. The great thing about living in Ontario is that I can tell the truth about you with no fear of retribution.

Why don't all of these anti-development groups just move to a retirement community in Florida and leave the HRM and Nova Scotia to the majority who need jobs.

Ignoring your bizarre personal vendetta, you are incorrect about the HRMbyDesign process. The Heritage Trust came out strong against it, were very vocal throughout the process and their disapproval of it, and still hold this view today.

[fenwick16]

Please do not put comments like that on this forum. We are all here to discuss developments and their effects on this city. We are not here to bash one another.

I just want to point out Jonovision, that what I have stated is a fact. I met Dawn Sloane and spoke with her for 1 hour on January 18 2010 at city hall (you can see the picture on this page - http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=174940&page=33 ). I am not bashing Dawn Slaone, I am using my freedom of speech to point out that she is hurting the HRM. Everything that I have stated is a fact. I am discussing developments and the negative effect that councilors like Dawn Sloane can have on the city. Dawn Sloane would like to see Fenwick Towers torn down. She will be the biggest opposition to any re-development going forward. Wait and see.

I am 51 years old and have cared about the Halifax area since I first lived there 38 years ago. If you want to study what effect a good politician can have on a city then study Hazel McCallon the Mayor of Mississauga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazel_McCallion .

[fenwick16]

Ignoring your bizarre personal vendetta, you are incorrect about the HRMbyDesign process. The Heritage Trust came out strong against it, were very vocal throughout the process and their disapproval of it, and still hold this view today.

I met Dawn Sloane on January 18 2010 at Halifax City Hall. Here is an article on Dawn Sloane http://www.thecoast.ca/halifax/best-councillor/BestOf?oid=1366948 - read the last comment. According to this, she overrode the HRM by Design committee and had the Barrington South height lowered from the HRM by Design recommended height of 70 feet to 50 feet. Is this true or false? The comments don't seem very favourable.

PS: As someone else pointed out to you, this is a skyscraper forum - skyscraperpage.com. Does it surprise you that people on this forum aren't all for shorter buildings? Go to other sections and see that people on this forum like tall buildings! If you want positive statements then go to a heritage forum; I am sure your comments about building shorter buildings will be hailed as great intellectual thought.

[fenwick16]

I just want to point out that I really believe that Dawn Sloane is doing her best to protect the city heritage and has done it tirelessly. However, I want the HRM to progress and in order for that to happen I believe that the city needs politicians who understand that developers are not the enemy. Politicians have to be able to work with developers not against them. Without developers, Halifax would either be a historic village like Louisburg or a ghetto. I don't favour Halifax becoming either.

[fenwick16]

I thought this was MPS amendment for the pennisula south district, as well as a Land use bylaw change via development agreement. To change MPS requires a lot more effort and will have public input because it will affect the area as a whole. That and i believe the LUB/Development agreement will have public input as well as HRM by design does not cover this area.

So therefore the NIMBYS are capable of bringing this one down if the above case is true.

You seem to have a lot of inside information SDM. Reading through your previous posts, you seem to know things that only a councillor would know and it seems that you are a wealthy South End resident against tall buildings. Could you be Sloane, Dawn Marie (SDM)?

PS: I have nothing against wealthy South End residents only the anti-development ones since they have secure jobs and are driving jobs away from the city. In other words they are serving their own purposes and not the purposes of the majority.

[Dmajackson]

You seem to have a lot of inside information SDM. Reading through your previous posts, you seem to know things that only a councillor would know and it seems that you are a wealthy South End resident against tall buildings. Could you be Sloane, Dawn Marie (SDM)?

It's not likely because Councillor Sloane had her own account awhile back, Downtown_Dawn.

[Jstaleness]

I just want to point out Jonovision, that what I have stated is a fact. I met Dawn Sloane and spoke with her for 1 hour on January 18 2010 at city hall (you can see the picture on this page - http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=174940&page=33 ). I am not bashing Dawn Slaone, I am using my freedom of speech to point out that she is hurting the HRM. Everything that I have stated is a fact. I am discussing developments and the negative effect that councilors like Dawn Sloane can have on the city. Dawn Sloane would like to see Fenwick Towers torn down. She will be the biggest opposition to any re-development going forward. Wait and see.

I am 51 years old and have cared about the Halifax area since I first lived there 38 years ago. If you want to study what effect a good politician can have on a city then study Hazel McCallon the Mayor of Mississauga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazel_McCallion .

I don't know much about Hazel, as I have only ever seen her on the Rick Mercer report when he met with her last season. The 10mins or so feature was enough to convince me though. She is mayor of the only Canadian City without a deficit. She has done wonders for that city. I only wish we had a mayor with that kind of ambition here.

[fenwick16]

It's not likely because Councillor Sloane had her own account awhile back, Downtown_Dawn.

When did Downtowndawn last post on this forum?

[Jstaleness]

I should add, the non-deficit was at the time of airing. I'm not sure if the city is still debt free or not.

[fenwick16]

I should add, the non-deficit was at the time of airing. I'm not sure if the city is still debt free or not.

I have heard recently that it is debt free.

Since I first moved to Ontario in 1980, Mississauga has gone from a medium size city of about 270,000 to the current size of 704,000 (as listed on city signs). It is interesting to note that if you combine Mississauga and its northern neighbouring city of Brampton it has a population similar to Calgary. However both of these cities are closely economically tied to Toronto. Hazel McCallion is 89 years old now, is still Mayor of Mississauga and is highly respected throughout the GTA and Canada. Interestingly, she doesn't seem to be against developers and tall buildings.

[beyeas]

Ohhhhhh K.

Time for everyone to take a deep breath, smoke some if ya got it, and CALM DOWN THE $%*& down. Seriously. The last few days the tone of comments has been one of attack rather than discussion. I will even look in the mirror and include myself in that, in addition to... well... pretty much all of us on here.

I think we all need to keep in mind that what gets posted on here becomes public record, and we are not helping the development community by putting "quotables" that the anti-development folks can use.

Let's all, me included, stick to what should be the goal of this forum which is to work in a positive fashion towards improved development/design, rather than focussing on negatives.

The best way to counter an argument isn't to say why they are wrong, but to demonstrate why your point is correct. Subtle but important difference.

NB: Please note that I am not directing this at any one individual or individuals, and am blaming myself just as much as anyone else when I go back and look at some of my own posts this week.

[fenwick16]

Ohhhhhh K.

Time for everyone to take a deep breath, smoke some if ya got it, and CALM DOWN THE $%*& down. Seriously. The last few days the tone of comments has been one of attack rather than discussion. I will even look in the mirror and include myself in that, in addition to... well... pretty much all of us on here.

I think we all need to keep in mind that what gets posted on here becomes public record, and we are not helping the development community by putting "quotables" that the anti-development folks can use.

Let's all, me included, stick to what should be the goal of this forum which is to work in a positive fashion towards improved development/design, rather than focussing on negatives.

The best way to counter an argument isn't to say why they are wrong, but to demonstrate why your point is correct. Subtle but important difference.

NB: Please note that I am not directing this at any one individual or individuals, and am blaming myself just as much as anyone else when I go back and look at some of my own posts this week.


Good points beyeas. However, sometimes people have to get angry. I for one do not believe that view planes bylaws and HRM by Design were introduced by the majority (certainly not an informed majority). This is what makes me angry is that special interest groups can introduce bylaws that are strictly enforced at the expense of the economic well being of the HRM. Being one person who was forced to move to Ontario many years ago because of a lack of job opportunities in the HRM, I feel I have a good reason to be against they self-serving A-holes. No apologies from me - these people have had their way long enough.

[Haliguy]

When did Downtowndawn last post on this forum?

I did a search for posts by this user name but have come with nothing

[fenwick16]

I did a search for posts by this user name but have come with nothing

Downtowndawn posted back in early January 2010 on the Central Library and Halifax Stadium Threads. At the time I welcomed the input from an HRM councillor. I still do if she wants to give her honest views on why high rise buildings are bad for Halifax.

[sdm]

You seem to have a lot of inside information SDM. Reading through your previous posts, you seem to know things that only a councillor would know and it seems that you are a wealthy South End resident against tall buildings. Could you be Sloane, Dawn Marie (SDM)?

PS: I have nothing against wealthy South End residents only the anti-development ones since they have secure jobs and are driving jobs away from the city. In other words they are serving their own purposes and not the purposes of the majority.

No, i am not her.

And if you read previous posts by me i have clearly stated that i have been in the industry for years, and have gone through development agreements and subseqently built developments hence where my knowledge comes from.

[fenwick16]

No, i am not her.

And if you read previous posts by me i have clearly stated that i have been in the industry for years, and have gone through development agreements and subseqently built developments hence where my knowledge comes from.

Sorry for the false accusation. I was concerned that you were speaking as though you did not want the Fenwick Towers renovation to go ahead. That would be a concern if you were the councillor. I would like to see this one proceed as quickly as possible since I think that it will make a huge difference to the Halifax skyline.

Please accept my humble apologies.

[sdm]

Sorry for the false accusation. I was concerned that you were speaking as though you did not want the Fenwick Towers renovation to go ahead. That would be a concern if you were the councillor. I would like to see this one proceed as quickly as possible since I think that it will make a huge difference to the Halifax skyline.

Please accept my humble apologies.

Apology accepted.

As per your statement of proceed quickly; well everyone (including developers) want that to happen, but the rules can't be bent to allow one proposal proceed faster then another. Doing that would be a bigger mistake on council's part.

[fenwick16]

Apology accepted.

As per your statement of proceed quickly; well everyone (including developers) want that to happen, but the rules can't be bent to allow one proposal proceed faster then another. Doing that would be a bigger mistake on council's part.

Being in the development industry, do you consider the HRM by Design to be an additional obstacle to developers? Is this as rigid a bylaw as the viewplanes bylaws in restricting tall buildings?

[worldlyhaligonian]

Being in the development industry, do you consider the HRM by Design to be an additional obstacle to developers? Is this as rigid a bylaw as the viewplanes bylaws in restricting tall buildings?

Sorry to cut in... I think HbD it has pros/cons for high rises. The Cogswell Interchange area is designated for tall buildings and other areas have changed height restrictions.

I think the issue is that we don't know when Cogswell will come down, so unless alot of the approved/proposed go up soon we will continue to wait on the tallest towers in that area.

[beyeas]

Sorry to cut in... I think HbD it has pros/cons for high rises. The Cogswell Interchange area is designated for tall buildings and other areas have changed height restrictions.

I think the issue is that we don't know when Cogswell will come down, so unless alot of the approved/proposed go up soon we will continue to wait on the tallest towers in that area.

That is certainly a totally fair criticism, and certainly one that I share. I think on the whole there are a lot of positives with HbD (it can't be all bad if the Heritage Trust disliked it eh?) but certainly the biggest negative that stands out is the fact that any additional height is constrained to places like cogswell that have big question marks on it.

Part of the reason why I haven't been that concerned about it though is that it is difficult for me to stress about theoretical new tall buildings, when I have yet to see a single 20 story or greater building actually get built in this city in decades, even though there are several that are approved.

That is not to say that that excuses the flaws in HbD (it doesn't)... I suppose it speaks more to my frustrations with seeing one after another of cool buildings get proposed and get my hopes up, only to never get built!!!

[beyeas]

Being in the development industry, do you consider the HRM by Design to be an additional obstacle to developers? Is this as rigid a bylaw as the viewplanes bylaws in restricting tall buildings?

I am not myself in the development industry, but from what I have heard from some is that it is all about trade-offs. HbD is far from perfect, but the most common gripe before that among developers seemed to be the lack or clarity etc in the guidelines and the fact that even if you followed the rules you could be challenged by heritage groups until it was finally not financially viable.

Many developers seemed willing to live with greater restrictions, if what came with it was the compromise that the process was clear(er?) and if you followed it had fewer potential challenges.

This seems to be the trade-off that many (maybe not all) developers were willing to accept. Basically, they just wanted to be told what the rules are and know that if they follow them then things will at least be easier than it used to be. That is better than in theory being able to build skyscrapers everywhere, but then being challenged in the URB/Courts for years until you finally can never actually build anything anyway.

[Haliguy]

I think overall HRM by Design is good. There are few things I'm not crazy about which is the height restrictions in some areas. However there is clarity and much more stream lined process that will allow developement approvals to go through within months as opposed to year or years and its a plan for the downtown. Something that will move the downtown forward which will hopefully create increased investment, improvements to the public realm and quality of new buildings that will hopefully make for a much more vibrant downtown.

[sdm]

Being in the development industry, do you consider the HRM by Design to be an additional obstacle to developers? Is this as rigid a bylaw as the viewplanes bylaws in restricting tall buildings?

Yes it is rigid
In agree in principle of what HRM by design is, but don't fully agree with it.

I believe the height restriction make it harder to build to the market because along with lower heights there are Floor area ratios and angle controls that make the development costly to build. If the development cannot yield a reasonable rate of return for the developers then they will not develop, period. People tend to forget that developers don't build without making money and a reasonable rate at best. If it can't most move to areas that do provide this or invest it in the equity markets.

[DigitalNinja]

I think the reason behind everything here and all these height by laws, is not only the "historic" aspect of the city. (Which there really isn't much at all, go to Quebec city if you really want to see a historic section and how much better than is). But the fact that Halifax blocks are really narrow and not big at all, so you will have floors with a lower amount of space than other major cities, hence you need to build higher.
HRMBD is a step in the right direction, but it's not there yet.

Also, I have little faith for many of the politians in this city, many of them lack a true vision for the city and it's inhabitants and focus more on personal opinion which seems to dominate them

On topic. Like I said before, over my dead body this renovation and renewal will take place :P

[Dmajackson]

I don't think it has been mentioned yet that a Public Information Meeting will be held on March 24th.

[fenwick16]

I think the reason behind everything here and all these height by laws, is not only the "historic" aspect of the city. (Which there really isn't much at all, go to Quebec city if you really want to see a historic section and how much better than is). But the fact that Halifax blocks are really narrow and not big at all, so you will have floors with a lower amount of space than other major cities, hence you need to build higher.

Good point, I am afraid that they have set the height limits way too low. Once the grandfathered projects are complete then downtown construction might decrease dramatically.

Hopefully, nobody will try to impose height restrictions on the Dartmouth side. Once it becomes impractical to develop on the Halifax side then developers can simply switch their focus to Dartmouth.

[DigitalNinja]

Dartmouth will be bigger than halifax eventually anyway, from what I see there is much more land on there, and the session on the 24th looks interesting.

[spaustin]

Not to restart the fire or anything, but what does HRM By Design have to do with Fenwick? HRM By Design doesn't cover Fenwick and so the redevelopment is proceeding under the old rules, which takes time. I don't see anything to get worked up about here. It's the same process as before. What heritage group is undermining it? Delefes said he liked the proposal! I don't understand what all the fuss is about.

[fenwick16]

On topic. Like I said before, over my dead body this renovation and renewal will take place :P

So are you against it? Or do you just think that it will never proceed?

[Takeo]

It's not likely because Councillor Sloane had her own account awhile back, Downtown_Dawn.

She's not a wealthy south ender either. LOL. She's a poor girl from the 'hood. She's also very well liked. So unfortunately for us, and Halifax developers... I think she'll be around for a while fighting against development.

[DigitalNinja]

So are you against it? Or do you just think that it will never proceed?

I did say it will take place, so I am for it haha.

[downtowndawn]

Hello,
Yes, the Public Information Meeting is March 24th. I'm still around but have limited time for forums as I am taking a Municipal Finance Course.
Dawn

[Dmajackson]

Hello,
Yes, the Public Information Meeting is March 24th. I'm still around but have limited time for forums as I am taking a Municipal Finance Course.
Dawn

Welcome back Councillor. :)

Hopefully you have time for at least one post on the topic at hand (Fenwick Tower Reno) since I don't want to take Fenwick's word for it.

[fenwick16]

Welcome back Councillor. :)

Hopefully you have time for at least one post on the topic at hand (Fenwick Tower Reno) since I don't want to take Fenwick's word for it.

Yes, I would like to hear that also. I am saying that you, Councillor Dawn Sloane, really are against tall buildings. Please tell me honestly otherwise if I am wrong. I feel these polices are hurting the Halifax economy. Having lived in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) for many years, I know that developers are treated like they are important people up here, not like the enemy. They create jobs.

I certainly have issues regarding HRM policies, especially downtown Halifax area policies. I can easily compare it to the GTA and see that it will drive jobs away not add jobs to the economy. This hurts everyday Nova Scotians who need jobs. The Heritage Trust is given top billing in the HRM even though they certainly do not represent the majority.

Please don't say that this is some sort of vendetta against you. I honestly want to see the HRM continue to prosper as it has to some degree over the past 10 years. Why is it that now that the HRM is starting to do well, more obstructions to development have been introduced (i.e. more height controls in HRM by Design)? Far more sensible design codes could have been introduced which include various setbacks as in the HRM by Design but without the severe height restrictions. In fact it was not necessary to introduce height controls; the HRM by Design could have been focused more on building design requirements than focusing on height. Having spent several years in the HRM and having read one HRM area survey, I feel that the majority of people in the HRM are not against tall buildings. Isn't this what democracry is all about - the will of the majority instead of the will of the minority special interest groups?

Also, I have an issue with HRM politicians not doing anything regarding a stadium. Just about every other public works project has been discussed over the past 3 decades but a stadium is treated like it is a bad word. If money is an issue then why doesn't the HRM set up a trust fund that people can contribute to? If the HRM wants to use empty pocket books as an excuse then let everyday Canadian citizens help by setting up a trust fund.

When I met you at city hall on January 18 2010 you indicated that you would work towards getting a stadium in the HRM. I don't see that happening. I came back with high hopes regarding a stadium and you let me and many others on this forum down.

I have said that I hope that you never become Mayor of the HRM. I have no apologies for having said this. Please don't say that this is something against women. If I thought that you could do for the HRM what Hazel McCallion ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazel_McCallion ) has done for Mississauga then I would be 100% behind you. Please prove me wrong and provide jobs for Haligonians.

PS: My name is Kevin Langille (fenwick16). I lived on the 16th floor of Fenwick Towers 33 years ago, shortly after it was built. I want it to be renovated and hopefully it will exist for another 100 years. There is no reason that tall buildings can't become heritage buildings.

[downtowndawn]

I'm not against attractive well sited tall buildings.
I'm against cheaply designed, ill constructed buildings of all sizes. As for the policies of HRM, vs GTA, apples to oranges. May I suggest you read this article:
http://www.alibris.com/search/books/qwork/6955954/used/Urban%20Governance%20in%20Canada:%20Representation,%20Resources,%20and%20Restructuring
It compares the disentanglement of Toronto and Halifax and how Toronto was give more autonomy and Halifax's roles and responsibilities were lessened.

I don't see this as a vendetta against me I see this as your personal opinion. over 85% of the citizens that participated in HRM By Design agreed with the recomendations, hence in a democractic society, majority rules. I'm not completely satisfied with HBD, but it is a working document that will be amended over time to reflect the vision of the residents. Kevin, I attended all of the meetings and the public hearings and heard the comments from the residents, and businesses so I know what was said and by whom.

The staduim is not a bad word. 30 million dollar defecit is. That is what we are trying to tackle right now. This could affect services, staffing and maintainence issues of our aging infrastructure.

As for the staduim, from my understanding David Hendsbee was suppose to action your request regarding the trust fund. I will check with him tomorrow.

As the Mayor stated, someone is working on a private staduim plan and I have not been updated on the status but will check with him as well.

Kevin, municipal government does not move quickly as I found out soon after being elected. You can't really expect everyone to drop everything to work on a project like the staduim when there are other issues such as the 30 million dollar proposed defecit looming 3 weeks before budget talks.


Hazel is a nice lady but she also has a Missasauga, a far cry from Halifax and btw I wouldn't want to be Mayor of HRM. The governance of this place needs to be reformed and until this occurs, we will always be dealing urban sprawl which does not pay its fair share in taxes.

Dawn

[downtowndawn]

At this point in the process I cannot comment on my thoughts as it would jeporadize my ability to vote. I can tell you I attended a workshop/focusgroup re: fenwick, and have seen the conceptual drawings. BTW this is located in District 13.

As for comments from the residents in District 12, I haven't had one call, email or comment on this project, but I'm sure as the date grows closer I will.
Dawn

[fenwick16]

Thank you for your replies Councillor Sloane.

I'm not completely satisfied with HBD, but it is a working document that will be amended over time to reflect the vision of the residents.

PS: I am glad to hear that it can be amended over time. I hope that it will not be like the viewplanes bylaws that are treated like scripture.

I apologize for the "wolf in sheep's clothing" comment since you have given me and others on this forum a great deal of your time in answering our questions and meeting with me in person.

[fenwick16]

As the Mayor stated, someone is working on a private stadium plan and I have not been updated on the status but will check with him as well.

I and many others are very interested in this. Is there a reason for this group to want to remain unknown? If there is a group that can possibly make a stadium happen then I and many others will be happy.

[Jstaleness]

I and many others are very interested in this. Is there a reason for this group to want to remain unknown? If there is a group that can possibly make a stadium happen then I and many others will be happy.
This must be the same group that he was referring to on Maritime Morning today. He mentioned 2 groups but only mentioned that one was based out of Toronto.

[Jstaleness]

Is anyone in this forum confirmed attending the meeting? I'm not 100% sure yet if I can make it as the company I work for has some guests down from Montreal and there may be a supper involved. If I can it would be nice if we could identify ourselves somehow while there and at least meet the ones we discuss with on a daily basis.

[Jonovision]

I will definitely be there. Don't know how I would identify myself though. I'll have to wait and see what I'm wearing. lol

[halifaxboyns]

Thank you for your replies Councillor Sloane.



PS: I am glad to hear that it can be amended over time. I hope that it will not be like the viewplanes bylaws that are treated like scripture.

Most Land Use bylaws are treated as working and constantly evolving.
Calgary just got rid of it's previous land use bylaw and adopted a new one a year or so ago - the previous one (2P80) was written in 1980 and has been held together with duck tape and bailing wire lol!

[alps]

Here's the full meeting info (probably been posted on an earlier page)

Public information meeting has been scheduled for Wednesday, March 24, 2010 at 7:00 pm, at Halifax Hall, 1841 Argyle Street (City Hall), Halifax.

I might be there unless I'm dead tired (bit sick at the moment). I would be wearing a black jacket and a black bag with a white CBC logo. I know Jonovision by sight from past meetings... wear a goofy hat or something so we can find you, Jstaleness

[DigitalNinja]

I might go if I don't decide to go to violin lessons tomorrow.

[alps]

Kind of a quiet night with no new information really. I'm not much of a public speaker so I sloppily wrote a few sentences of support on one of the comment cards. IIRC only five people spoke: four in favour and one seemingly against -- she never actually said either way but was quite hung up on traffic and parking, to which the developer countered with current car ownership figures in the building (10%?). If you live down there you really don't need a car.

They're looking for any public comments, so send yours to a regional councillor or staff member and it'll show up in the report.

utecks@halifax.ca (Sue Uteck, Councillor for district 13)
sampsop@halifax.ca (Paul Sampson, Planner)

[fenwick16]

It looks good. I wonder how long it will take to implement the amendments to the Land Use Bylaws to allow the increase in density.

[spaustin]

Somewhat related, but I noticed today that both houses immediatley next door are up for sale. With the roadwork done and the Fenwick redevelopment not started yet, it's probably a good window to sell.

http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=9251941

The other isn't up on MLS quite yet.
http://www.nshomeguide.ca/default.asp

[Jonovision]

I was very surprised at how quiet it was last night. But silence in this case can speak volumes. It makes me very hopeful. And I heard June for a potential public hearing if all goes well.

[someone123]

Apparently Bev Miller was there complaining about density?

I don't see people complaining too much about this project, given the fact that it mostly consists of improvements for an existing building. There will be more people living there afterward but that's not a big problem for this location. It's really good to have lots of people living within walking distance of the downtown, hospitals, universities, grocery store, etc. The neighbours will also benefit since this will result in improved services for the area.

[alps]

Was that Bev Miller?! She rambled on endlessly about density and parking.

[musicman]

Yeah that was Bev Miller... I kinda zoned out after a little while... My head was hurting trying to follow the foolishness that she was babling about.... All she has to do is look at other cities and figure out that that much density is nothing compared to most cities... Including old world european cities....

[fenwick16]

Seeing the transformation that is taking place with the NS Power building makes me believe that a similar transformation can take place with Fenwick Tower. If this development doesn't get the amendments in order to add units, I wonder if Templeton Properties will still go ahead with re-cladding?