Preston Street [Archive] - SkyscraperPage Forum

Richard Eade

Dec 13, 2009, 4:16 PM

My big concern is the lack of parking now. (Appart from the WAY OVERPRICED Municipal lot.)

The other evening my wife and I drove down to Preston, as we used to do, but found parking so hard to find that we were turned off. If we hadn't been meeting two other couples, we would have simply left. In the restaurant, everyone agreed about the parking. Unfortunately it won't be Preston that we next meet on. There are just too many options where couples from different areas of the city can meet without the parking hassels.

This is, I think, one of the big probems; Preston Street relies on people coming from much farther away than the local neighbourhood. If you make it hard for those people to go there, then they won't go there. You will have a great pedestrian environment, but it will only be used sparcely by locals. If this is sufficient to keep the businesses running, then there is no problem. If it is not, then we get another Sparks Street. Preston will relly on the lunch crowd from the government complex beside it.

The bus is not a good option for groups of older people. For a couple from Kanata to go to Preston for an Italian meal, the bus will cost $4.60 a piece (assuming tickets, since they live in Kanata) and likely take over an hour and include two transfers in each direction.

I wish Preston Street luck, but I do worry about this latest desire to remove cars from areas before they become dense enough to support themselves.

Deez

Dec 13, 2009, 9:24 PM

Kitchissippi

Dec 13, 2009, 9:43 PM

One thing I wish Ottawa would do is establish some free downtown circulator bus loops like the Winnipeg Spirit (http://myride.winnipegtransit.com/public_content/pdfs/downtownspirit/DTSpiritMapNov07.pdf). One could easily ply the Preston-Somerset-Elgin-Gladstone circuit and link the Chinatown, little Italy, Bank Street and Elgin districts together. This would also spread out the parking burden, as you could park anywhere on the route and hop on. It would have to be quite frequent, but since it's a short loop, two small vehicles could probably suffice. It could also make for a nice demonstration streetcar or electric trolley project.

What I had in mind is something like this (and get rid of the 153):

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2786/4182981822_70237f8c92_b.jpg

Yroc

Dec 13, 2009, 10:30 PM

You would have to include the market if it is to be viable.

rodionx

Dec 14, 2009, 1:15 AM

Unfortunately it won't be Preston that we next meet on. There are just too many options where couples from different areas of the city can meet without the parking hassels.

This is, I think, one of the big probems; Preston Street relies on people coming from much farther away than the local neighbourhood. If you make it hard for those people to go there, then they won't go there.

If parking were of critical importance in choosing a place to go at night, then there would be no Market, no Elgin street, no Chinatown.... Everyone from outside the core would just go to a bar in a mall somewhere.

Bottom line is that if a place is cool and appealing, people will find their way to it. And there is always parking, after all - it's just a question of how far you to walk. You'll never get the strip mall, park-at-the-front-door experience downtown. Make a place attractive and people will walk very far indeed. Ask anyone who took their car to Bluesfest.

waterloowarrior

Dec 14, 2009, 1:21 AM

My strategy is just to go for the sideroads... I find that trying to find parking on the mainstreet is like going for the best spot in a mall parking lot.. by the time you circle around and find a spot, you could have just parked at the far end of the lot and walked there

eternallyme

Dec 14, 2009, 1:47 AM

Forming a network of free loop/tourist routes is a great idea, I agree. I was thinking a linear route network, but a series of loops would work too. It should use smaller buses but run quite frequently, during the daytime 7 days a week (not sure if there is a need for evening service).

That one loop is a great idea, but it should be bi-directional. It should also extend to the Experimental Farm and possibly deviate to the Museum of Nature to make it more attractive to tourists.

Another possible loop could be Wellington Street --> Rideau Centre --> Byward Market --> Museum of Civilization --> War Museum --> Wellington Street.

As for serving the Golden Triangle area (with the eliminate of Route 153), an easy option is to deviate Route 6 into that area. It is close enough for most people to Elgin Street or Campus Station, but undoubtedly there are many seniors there that cannot walk that distance, especially in winter - enough to warrant closer service given the very high densities.

cityguy

Dec 14, 2009, 2:11 AM

My problem, is now that they have widened the sidewalks,people are still parking on both sides of the street.Cars were actually parked in the thru lane.

lrt's friend

Dec 14, 2009, 3:32 PM

^While I agree that Preston should be designed to allow for people from outside Little Italy to access it, it certainly doesn't make sense to me to throw in so much parking to appease people coming in from Kanata and other far-flung suburbs. If Kanata residents want to experience the urban flavour and vibrancy that Preston presents, they can either 1) move to the city 2) pay for parking (as the rest of the city does when they visit Kanata's main attraction: Scotiabank Place) or 3) de-NIMBYfy and permit the kind of development in their own end of the city that would foster Preston-style diversity.

As for improving accessibility for those closer to Preston, an O-train station at Gladstone would work quite nicely!

It seems to me that Preston's success has come about because it attracts people widely across the city. It does not take much to destroy this. If parking is inadequate, inconvenient or you have pay for it in the evening especially, people will simply won't go. From my experience, it is often difficult to find parking on those short dead end side streets off of Preston. Free transit loops (the city will screw this up and only offer 30 minutes service) and an O-Train stop addition (many years away) may help a bit eventually, but most diners don't want to take transit to get to a car parked at some remote location.

The 'move to the city' comment is really not very helpful. That is simply impossible for most people.

Also, until Ottawa starts developing a transit culture, where you can count on frequent service widely even at night, developing streets mainly dependent on transit is not going to work. As it stands, for night life and evening dining, most people still use a car to get to Market and Elgin Street, and as we all know, Sparks Street is teaming with life at night.

eternallyme

Dec 14, 2009, 4:07 PM

It seems to me that Preston's success has come about because it attracts people widely across the city. It does not take much to destroy this. If parking is inadequate, inconvenient or you have pay for it in the evening especially, people will simply won't go. From my experience, it is often difficult to find parking on those short dead end side streets off of Preston. Free transit loops (the city will screw this up and only offer 30 minutes service) and an O-Train stop addition (many years away) may help a bit eventually, but most diners don't want to take transit to get to a car parked at some remote location.

The 'move to the city' comment is really not very helpful. That is simply impossible for most people.

Also, until Ottawa starts developing a transit culture, where you can count on frequent service widely even at night, developing streets mainly dependent on transit is not going to work. As it stands, for night life and evening dining, most people still use a car to get to Market and Elgin Street, and as we all know, Sparks Street is teaming with life at night.

Route 3 does provide decent service along the Preston Street corridor, but the city staff wants to screw it up badly...

An O-Train stop at Gladstone is also a good idea at fairly low cost.

Richard Eade

Dec 14, 2009, 4:08 PM

I seem to be hearing a lot of you saying that the loss of parking is a good thing. I will be interested in seeing the outcome. If there were records of the number of people enjoying Preston in, say, 2008, before the big road re-building, I would like to see a comparison between those and the numbers for 2010 and 2011.

Preston has side streets to park on, but they are very short, dead-ends on the west and Rochester is a one-way on the east, restricting movement. Before, I could buzz down, and zip into a favorite store; now I need to go down a bunch of cul-de-sacs looking for a parking spot, and if that fails, then I can’t simply cut across Norman to head back north to try again because Rochester will only take me to Carling. On the west side, there is also the O-Train trench to cut off access.

I think that an area needs to be easy to get to and offer a certain 'bustle' and ambiance that is not available else where in the city to be a destination. The narrow, over-crowded sidewalks of the Byward Market are a part of its excitement. The fact that it has such a high concentration of bars is another. In Israel, when tourists are to walk the Via Del Rosa, the tour guides will gather a couple of groups together so that the passage is crowded and invigorating. (After the commotion, it is interesting to see the merchants sit back and read their papers while they await the next ‘staged’ event. Then they will again begin the banter and stirring of the crowd. In between, the small number of individual tourists is all but ignored.) Buskers employ the same principle: Before they begin, they work the crowd into a vocal row to attract attention. It is this crowding that makes others feel as if they should be part of it. Although there are lots of fire-works shows around the city, a huge number of people go down to Parliament Hill for Canada Day celebrations: The ‘mob mentality’ heightens the experience.

When my friends talk of their memories of European cities, it is rarely of streets which look like Preston Street; but rather of the crowded, narrow streets, often with parked cars lining one-side or both, often half parked on the sidewalks. Also on these streets would be chairs and small tables which create wonderful spots to sit and watch the hustle of the passers-by. It takes much more than wide sidewalks to make a ‘happening’ spot. If that weren’t so, Sparks Street would be thriving. I am very glad to hear that the new widened sidewalks will be cluttered with out-door cafes since this could again reduce the walkable portion to restore that crowded feel.

On another note: Any ideas what the affect of extending Preston to Wellington/Ottawa River Parkway will be? Will it mean much more commuter traffic along the whole of Preston?

Dado

Dec 14, 2009, 5:29 PM

Several years ago, a developer in the area (can't remember who unfortunately) offered to build an O-Train station at Gladstone. Naturally, that kind of civic-minded entrepreneurialism isn't welcome at the City of Ottawa (but dubious deals at Lansdowne are) so after much hemming and hawing nothing came of it.

It's quite disappointing too because the trench at Gladstone is double track ready since it once was double tracked; a double track station like Carleton could have been built and would have been the first step towards increasing frequency.

Dado

Dec 14, 2009, 5:43 PM

On another note: Any ideas what the affect of extending Preston to Wellington/Ottawa River Parkway will be? Will it mean much more commuter traffic along the whole of Preston?

I can well imagine that Gatineauois coming across at Chaudière will turn right onto the ORP at Booth and left onto Preston once they can do so. I'm not sure how much more commuter traffic there'd be from points west though (there's already Scott, after all) and people headed to Tunney's from the south can already do so (also on Scott).

I wonder if putting Preston and Booth onto a one-way couplet system after they've connected everything up would be worth looking into. While the immediately obvious arrangement would be Booth northbound and Preston southbound, these could be flipped as it would be more convenient given where the Chaudière Bridge and Prince of Wales Drive are located.

Deez

Dec 14, 2009, 7:19 PM

It seems to me that Preston's success has come about because it attracts people widely across the city. It does not take much to destroy this. If parking is inadequate, inconvenient or you have pay for it in the evening especially, people will simply won't go. From my experience, it is often difficult to find parking on those short dead end side streets off of Preston. Free transit loops (the city will screw this up and only offer 30 minutes service) and an O-Train stop addition (many years away) may help a bit eventually, but most diners don't want to take transit to get to a car parked at some remote location.

The 'move to the city' comment is really not very helpful. That is simply impossible for most people.

Also, until Ottawa starts developing a transit culture, where you can count on frequent service widely even at night, developing streets mainly dependent on transit is not going to work. As it stands, for night life and evening dining, most people still use a car to get to Market and Elgin Street, and as we all know, Sparks Street is teaming with life at night.

IMO, it is impossible to develop a transit culture while still facilitating and subsidizing auto use.

Regarding the "move to the city" comment: it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. People move to the burbs looking for, among other reasons, cul-de-sacs, big yards, etc. but then lament that there aren't any good restaurants around. What I'm getting at is that people want the conveniences of the city without living in it, with which I have beef.

phil235

Dec 14, 2009, 7:32 PM

I can well imagine that Gatineauois coming across at Chaudière will turn right onto the ORP at Booth and left onto Preston once they can do so. I'm not sure how much more commuter traffic there'd be from points west though (there's already Scott, after all) and people headed to Tunney's from the south can already do so (also on Scott).

I wonder if putting Preston and Booth onto a one-way couplet system after they've connected everything up would be worth looking into. While the immediately obvious arrangement would be Booth northbound and Preston southbound, these could be flipped as it would be more convenient given where the Chaudière Bridge and Prince of Wales Drive are located.

I don't think one-way streets is the way to go, as that would be counter-productive to the pedestrian-friendly main street feel that is being promoted on Preston. While there are some examples of one-way streets that work as pedestrian areas (Ste-Catherine in Montreal), the more likely result would be an erosion of the pedestrian stroll that has been gaining momentum in the past few years.

With the exception of possible transit enhancements, I think the street network east of Preston is almost perfectly suited for re-working as an intensified residential area once NRCan moves out of its older buildings.

eternallyme

Dec 14, 2009, 9:14 PM

I don't think one-way streets is the way to go, as that would be counter-productive to the pedestrian-friendly main street feel that is being promoted on Preston. While there are some examples of one-way streets that work as pedestrian areas (Ste-Catherine in Montreal), the more likely result would be an erosion of the pedestrian stroll that has been gaining momentum in the past few years.

With the exception of possible transit enhancements, I think the street network east of Preston is almost perfectly suited for re-working as an intensified residential area once NRCan moves out of its older buildings.

One-way streets are not good for anything. They are confusing for drivers and rarely flow well, and they are bad for pedestrians - especially when the one-way street is a busy arterial road, which such a couplet surely would make it to be. Prince of Wales is also only 2 lanes wide for most of its length (and even after upgrades, it will probably still only be 2 lanes north of Fisher), hardly an example of a high-traffic arterial.

The Chaudiere Bridge should not be seen as a bridge for through traffic anyway, it should be intended for local community and business traffic in the immediate area (including the islands). Once either the Kettle Island bridge or the King Edward/Nicholas tunnel is done, then better work can be done in the area.

A good idea would be to hook up Preston Street to Vimy Place, and place some new museums in the space west of Preston surrounding Bayview Station, while leaving the area east of Preston and south of the Ottawa River Parkway as residential.

One other thing: they should revive the Corso Italia street signs on Preston Street, but instead, do it on the main sign - have a white base instead of a blue base, leave the text alone, while writing "Corso Italia" in the space above "rue Preston St.". Perhaps an Italian flag could replace the City of Ottawa logo as well.

Other BIA's could do the same in their communities.

waterloowarrior

Dec 14, 2009, 9:31 PM

On that note, Preston will be extended to the ORP as part of the rail project (it was previously going to happen farther down the road for later phases of Lebreton Flats, but is being done along with the rail corridor construction)

phil235

Dec 14, 2009, 9:42 PM

One-way streets are not good for anything. They are confusing for drivers and rarely flow well, and they are bad for pedestrians - especially when the one-way street is a busy arterial road, which such a couplet surely would make it to be. Prince of Wales is also only 2 lanes wide for most of its length (and even after upgrades, it will probably still only be 2 lanes north of Fisher), hardly an example of a high-traffic arterial.

The Chaudiere Bridge should not be seen as a bridge for through traffic anyway, it should be intended for local community and business traffic in the immediate area (including the islands). Once either the Kettle Island bridge or the King Edward/Nicholas tunnel is done, then better work can be done in the area.

A good idea would be to hook up Preston Street to Vimy Place, and place some new museums in the space west of Preston surrounding Bayview Station, while leaving the area east of Preston and south of the Ottawa River Parkway as residential.

One other thing: they should revive the Corso Italia street signs on Preston Street, but instead, do it on the main sign - have a white base instead of a blue base, leave the text alone, while writing "Corso Italia" in the space above "rue Preston St.". Perhaps an Italian flag could replace the City of Ottawa logo as well.

Other BIA's could do the same in their communities.

Special street signs are an excellent idea for unique and well-defined neighbourhoods like Little Italy. We just need to be careful that they are not overdone as in Toronto, where every street now seems to have some sort of designation. I'll buy "the Annex" or "Chinatown", but "the Garden District" at Queen and Church? Really?

eternallyme

Dec 14, 2009, 9:53 PM

Special street signs are an excellent idea for unique and well-defined neighbourhoods like Little Italy. We just need to be careful that they are not overdone as in Toronto, where every street now seems to have some sort of designation. I'll buy "the Annex" or "Chinatown", but "the Garden District" at Queen and Church? Really?

I personally don't mind the overdone special signs in Toronto, it shows each community as being distinct.

I think it should also be done in the rural villages (but not the suburban areas except for their town centres and BIAs as it would be too many for a non-distinct area), organized urban and suburban BIAs and specially distinct areas. The colours of the sign and the language of the distinct part would be based on the local community (unilingual English and unilingual French, as well as other languages such as Chinese for Chinatown, should be acceptable), but the font, language and numbering of the main part of the sign would always be unchanged.

Not acceptable would be reflecting the pre-2001 municipalities, except perhaps for Vanier and Rockcliffe Park due to their small size. However, reflecting pre-RMOC historic communities might be acceptable.

Dado

Dec 14, 2009, 10:44 PM

Does anyone else find the "Little Italy" sign on the Queensway overpass a bit, I don't know, on the tacky side? It's difficult to read in daylight owing to the lack of consistent background and at night it's illuminated. The font doesn't even seem right to me (compare to the 'Corso Italia' font).

http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/www.ottawacitizen.com/news/photos/Gallery+Preston+Street/2335008/2335078.bin?size=620x400

http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/www.ottawacitizen.com/news/photos/Gallery+Preston+Street/2335008/2335067.bin?size=620x400

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/photos/Gallery+Preston+Street/2335008/story.html

I agree something needs to be done about those overpass faces, but not this.

Deez

Dec 14, 2009, 10:54 PM

The font doesn't even seem right to me

I have a theory:

http://www.sikhtimes.com/licks.jpg

Norman Bates

Dec 15, 2009, 12:37 AM

http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/www.ottawacitizen.com/news/photos/Gallery+Preston+Street/2335008/2335078.bin?size=620x400

http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/www.ottawacitizen.com/news/photos/Gallery+Preston+Street/2335008/2335067.bin?size=620x400

OMG it looks like Laverne De Fazio designed that sign.

How do you say barf in French?

Jamaican-Phoenix

Dec 15, 2009, 12:52 AM

Come on, guys. There's a lot of aspects about Little Italy that are tacky that help make it charming. :P

eternallyme

Dec 15, 2009, 1:41 AM

When that overpass is up for rapid replacement (probably in the next 5 years), they should completely paint the new one green and red.

RTWAP

Dec 15, 2009, 2:53 AM

If parking were of critical importance in choosing a place to go at night, then there would be no Market, no Elgin street, no Chinatown.... Everyone from outside the core would just go to a bar in a mall somewhere.

Bottom line is that if a place is cool and appealing, people will find their way to it. And there is always parking, after all - it's just a question of how far you to walk. You'll never get the strip mall, park-at-the-front-door experience downtown. Make a place attractive and people will walk very far indeed. Ask anyone who took their car to Bluesfest.

I really like Preston street, but I've been burned for parking there, and I've never ever had a problem parking within a couple blocks of my destination in either the Market or on Elgin street. There are plenty of on-street options in both those areas, whereas Preston has no parking zones. And (perversely) it also has zones where people are free to park during the day but prohibited from doing so in the evening.

If the O-Train trench wasn't there and street parking was available on west and east of Preston then it wouldn't be a problem.

RTWAP

Dec 15, 2009, 2:59 AM

I like it. It looks nice at night.

http://westsideaction.blogspot.com/2009/12/elegant-romantic-and-christmasy.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_qVgnHDIZ3_w/SyZUH029f-I/AAAAAAAABBg/ag_NdiNXEqo/s400/New+Little+Italy+bridge+sign.jpg

Kitchissippi

Dec 15, 2009, 8:05 PM

Looks tacky. I doubt it will last long with all the salt spray, vibration and debris from the Queensway. I'm really surprised they went away from the classier sounding "Corso Italia". Little Italy sounds so American.

harls

Dec 15, 2009, 8:15 PM

Hmm.. not a fan.

Looks like something you would letter on a baseball jersey.

rakerman

Dec 15, 2009, 9:08 PM

Kinda weird. What about that font and style are supposed to read as Italian? Corso Italia would have been better. Although nothing could be as bad as those "we're-a kind-a busy renovatin', have-a nice time" signs with Guido the fat cheerful pizza-making stereotype they had up during the construction.

Kitchissippi

Dec 15, 2009, 9:27 PM

Although nothing could be as bad as those "we're-a kind-a busy renovatin', have-a nice time" signs with Guido the fat cheerful pizza-making stereotype they had up during the construction.

Maybe when they rip up the sidewalks in Chinatown, they could one-up those and put up these signs:

http://www.engrish.com//wp-content/uploads/2009/09/erection-in-progress.jpg

harls

Jan 21, 2010, 3:26 PM

Acajack

Jan 21, 2010, 4:25 PM

Anyone else notice they now have signs on the Queensway outside of town for Little Italy and Chinatown, telling you what exit to take and how far, etc..?

The eastern one is near Anderson Rd and there's another right at the Bronson exit. not sure about the west end..

I don't have anything at all against these two communities and I understand that they want to get the word out and attract visitors.

However, from a highway signage perspective (and also sign clutter prevention), are Ottawa's Chinatown and Little Italy big enough attractions to warrant mentions on the 416 and 417?

I believe there are (or at least were) signs for Parliament Hill that said something like ''Parliament/Parlement via Parkway/Promenade'' on the major highways, but are there signs pointing the way to the museums, most of which would be much bigger draws than Chinatown or Little Italy?

Anyway, good on the neighbourhoods. They did what they had to do - looking out for number one.

harls

Jan 21, 2010, 7:30 PM

The signs are pretty small and are red lettering on white, if I remember correctly... you have to be really alert to see them.

They don't look like your standard MTO signage, that's for sure. It's almost as if someone from the Chinatown and Preston Street merchants went out there and pounded the signs in themselves.

I've never seen any signs for the museums on the 417.. off the freeway, sure.. but not on it. The big maple leaf on blue denoting the Scenic route to Parliament is at the Holly Acres exit and at Aviation Parkway, I think.

Acajack

Jan 21, 2010, 7:53 PM

I've never seen any signs for the museums on the 417.. off the freeway, sure.. but not on it. The big maple leaf on blue denoting the Scenic route to Parliament is at the Holly Acres exit and at Aviation Parkway, I think.

That's what I seem to recall as well - no signs for the museums on the 417.

As you said, once off the 417 there are signs within the city itself pointing the way to various tourist attractions.

I've always found it funny that since the museum signs only show the type of museum and don't include the words "Museum" or "Musée", there are actually signs all over downtown Ottawa with arrows pointing towards Quebec that apparently lead the way to "Civilization"! :haha: