[frinkprof]

Disregard.

[fusili]

The reason that some places have implemented fare differentiation is because it has resulted in productivity improvements of the public transit. By having a flat fare, you have users like myself that needlessly burden the system, and simulataneously when it is less occupied, it is also cutting other people out of accessing the service that potentially can't afford the cost. How is this a good model?

I have seen you argue before for market based pricing for parking before; why is public transit a sacred cow when there is an opportunity to improve upon the efficient use of that spare capacity?

I wasn't arguing in the last post against market based pricing for transit. I was arguing against "fixing the root problem" of a core-centric city, which I think is a good thing. If you can find an easy, simple, legible and inexpensive way to implement a differential pricing schme for transit- sure. I just see enforcement being incredibly difficult given our current system.

[Radley77]

I wasn't arguing in the last post against market based pricing for transit. I was arguing against "fixing the root problem" of a core-centric city, which I think is a good thing. If you can find an easy, simple, legible and inexpensive way to implement a differential pricing schme for transit- sure. I just see enforcement being incredibly difficult given our current system.

I think you may have misinterpreted the intent of my statements with respect to being a "problem" with core-centric. I agree that Calgary's major activity nodes, especially city centre, are key to Calgary's economic success and a good thing.

I also agree that the improvement in resource allocation would need to be greater than the cost of complexity; so it'd be important to keep it as simple as possible.

[Sean.Perrin]

I must of missed the part where she's crying and blaming others. All I saw was her asking for reliable and convenient transit.

She's asking people to feel sorry for her for having to travel so far. That's the part. I believe it starts at the beginning and carries on through to the end.

[Sean.Perrin]

I understand that. I just thought Sean.Perrin's comment was a bit over the top and void of empathy.

True. You'll have to excuse me, I just finished reading Atlas Shrugged. Lol.

[freeweed]

True. You'll have to excuse me, I just finished reading Atlas Shrugged. Lol.

:haha:

OK, this is one of the funniest rejoinders I've ever read on the Internet. I'm not sure if it would be funnier if you're making an intentional joke, or if you're actually serious.

[Ramsayfarian]

True. You'll have to excuse me, I just finished reading Atlas Shrugged. Lol.

I guess she should be thankful that you didn't reread Mein Kampf.

[Ramsayfarian]

:haha:

OK, this is one of the funniest rejoinders I've ever read on the Internet. I'm not sure if it would be funnier if you're making an intentional joke, or if you're actually serious.

I think the LOL at the end implies that he's making a joke.

[Sean.Perrin]

I guess she should be thankful that you didn't reread Mein Kampf.

Haha... seriously though. How can you feel sympathetic to the creator of that video? It's absurd.

[freeweed]

I think the LOL at the end implies that he's making a joke.

Or he realizes the humour in just having read Atlas Shrugged for real, and then coming upon a video which epitomizes the very thing Rand was whining about.

[Radley77]

I had been looking at some of the public transit data from APTA for Calgary and compiled it into the graphs below.

I will prob post the data on Googledocs so can share and here is the graphs in the meantime:

I'm curious why APTA publishes this information and Calgary Transit doesn't. There may be issues with data quality as there doesn't seem to be a good fit with the ridership info and line extensions that occurred throughout the 2000's.

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6844/calgarypublictransitrid.png

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/6844/calgarypublictransitrid.png

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6844/calgarypublictransitrid.png

Data Source from American Public Transportation Association: http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Pages/RidershipArchives.aspx

[freeweed]

:previous: Transit strike in early 2001?

[srperrycgy]

:previous: Transit strike in early 2001?

Yes there was a strike in 2001. :rolleyes:

[Radley77]

Below are links to the Calgary public transit ridership data from January 1995 to September 2010 by mode (motor bus or light rail transit).

Excel Version:
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bypm2JeRPPoJYmM2NGU4YzQtZWRmNi00YmFlLWFhNzctMjkwMDY4YTU0NWFm&sort=name&layout=list&num=50

Google Docs:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Aipm2JeRPPoJdEttUDczZUc2MkdaMWRYMkhYNkdwVWc&hl=en


The data source for this information is the American Public Transit Ridership Reports (http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Pages/ridershipreport.aspx).

[freeweed]

Trains are running on 2 car consists today - is this normal during the Xmas-New Years week? I'm usually out of town so I've never seen this during a "normal" business day. Heck, even on Sundays we're almost always seeing 3 car.

That being said, it makes sense. Downtown is a ghost town and the Park and Ride lot was virtually deserted.

[fusili]

Trains are running on 2 car consists today - is this normal during the Xmas-New Years week? I'm usually out of town so I've never seen this during a "normal" business day. Heck, even on Sundays we're almost always seeing 3 car.

That being said, it makes sense. Downtown is a ghost town and the Park and Ride lot was virtually deserted.

It has been 2 car trains all week (yes, I have been working all week), except for Monday. IIRC, they had 3 car trains on Monday, so maybe they saw that no one was working and cut the amount of cars to 2. Or maybe I was just tired and didn't notice on Monday.

[mersar]

Trains are running on 2 car consists today - is this normal during the Xmas-New Years week? I'm usually out of town so I've never seen this during a "normal" business day. Heck, even on Sundays we're almost always seeing 3 car.

That being said, it makes sense. Downtown is a ghost town and the Park and Ride lot was virtually deserted.

Yep. They've been running mostly 2 LRV consists all week. They did it last year also, mostly as it gives them a chance to catch up on maintenance backlog and if they only need to clean 2/3 the LRV's they usually do it should mean they can get further ahead.

[fusili]

Random question: Anybody know if any types of Low Floor Buses and Low Floor LRVs are able to share stations? I.E. are the door heights similar in order to allow buses to use stations designed for low floor LRVs?

[MalcolmTucker]

Well, why would you want to ruin a perfectly good train by putting buses on it?

[UofC.engineer]

Nova bus has a 10.6 inch kneeling height and 14.6 inch non-kneeling height

Nova: http://www.novabus.com/documents/Spec_Sheet_FINAL.pdf

The siemens s70 requires a platform height on 14.4 inches

siemens S70: http://transportation.siemens.com/shared/data/pdf/sts_usa_internet/san_diego_s70.pdf


There is a plan for the future Inglewood/Ramsay station to share buses/streetcars with low floor trains.

I'm sure mechanics could adjust the kneeling height of a city bus tho.

[fusili]

Well, why would you want to ruin a perfectly good train by putting buses on it?

The idea is kinda like a BRT system, well not quite. A main line (the low floor train) runs the crosstown, high speed route, while feeder buses move in and out of the ROW. The buses really only stop at one or two stations in a row, but then leave the ROW to do the feeder route. It is just an idea to handle a feeder system without a separate ROW for each vehicle.

[Aegis]

The idea is kinda like a BRT system, well not quite. A main line (the low floor train) runs the crosstown, high speed route, while feeder buses move in and out of the ROW. The buses really only stop at one or two stations in a row, but then leave the ROW to do the feeder route. It is just an idea to handle a feeder system without a separate ROW for each vehicle.

Combining busses and LRVs on the same station doesn't seem like a very efficient idea. Better to keep the separate so that the delays of one don't affect the other.

[fusili]

Combining busses and LRVs on the same station doesn't seem like a very efficient idea. Better to keep the separate so that the delays of one don't affect the other.

What delays? Buses, stop, board and leave. So would the LRVs. Design the stations so that one of each can fit. It would work exactly like regular BRT stations, like in Bogota, Curitiba, etc etc, except that one of the vehicles would be an LRV.

[Aegis]

What delays? Buses, stop, board and leave. So would the LRVs. Design the stations so that one of each can fit. It would work exactly like regular BRT stations, like in Bogota, Curitiba, etc etc, except that one of the vehicles would be an LRV.

So, what happens when a customer delays the bus? This happens all the time (fare disputes, disorderly behavior, safety isssues, etc). The LRVs and busses behind the delayed vehicle must wait. For the small savings in land, the potential time delays aren't a good trade-off.

[fusili]

So, what happens when a customer delays the bus? This happens all the time (fare disputes, disorderly behavior, safety isssues, etc). The LRVs and busses behind the delayed vehicle must wait. For the small savings in land, the potential time delays aren't a good trade-off.

Off vehicle fare payment.

[freeweed]

I'd love feeder buses to share platforms with the LRT. One of the larger drawbacks with taking the LRT in our climate is the several minutes of needless walking in -20 weather that I have to do twice a day already. It's a huge disincentive towards taking transit for anything but the absolutely essential trips (ie: working downtown).

I'm sure I'm about to be reproached for whining, but the fact of the matter is anything that makes transit "worse" than driving is a bad thing. And this one's a big one with the stupid design of many of our stations. Brentwood I recall being particularly annoying during the winter. I realize much of this is predicated on the design of Crowchild, but why repeat the same mistakes elsewhere only because we've already committed them?

I've always dreamed of a complete redesign of our stations, all with stations on either side of the tracks (a la Lion's Park) where the far side of a larger platform is essentially a long bus bay. Obviously we can't do this on much of the existing C-Train but it's definitely something that should be looked at for the future.

[MalcolmTucker]

Level transfers is fine, but sharing ROW isn't a good idea. You would have to run the trains much slower - last thing you want is a train rear ending a full bus. You would have to set speed limits based on visibility whereas now the signaling system takes care of that.

[freeweed]

Level transfers is fine, but sharing ROW isn't a good idea. You would have to run the trains much slower - last thing you want is a train rear ending a full bus. You would have to set speed limits based on visibility whereas now the signaling system takes care of that.

Very true. Unless there was a way to have the signaling system handle the presence of buses as well?

Still would only really work when the tracks aren't full of trains. As it is right now, my train has to stop and wait pretty much every day because there are always 2 trains ahead of it pulling into Crowfoot. Any more traffic on the lines would mean gridlock (I realize that Crowchild wouldn't see buses on the ROW, but the principle is the same on any fully utilized line).

[sim]

Tram and Bus Stop
(http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Munich,+Bavaria,+Germany&ll=48.158223,11.511583&spn=0.000092,0.00066&t=h&z=21&layer=c&cbll=48.158223,11.511583&panoid=eNAB0hpjbYU72pg5zBGq-A&cbp=12,223.32,,0,5)

Here is an example of what you are talking about. Buses use that right of way as well, even though it can't directly be seen in that image. As can be seen, however, these are trams and not Low Floor LRVs but I don't see why it couldn't also work.



I would link the image directly, but for whatever reason I seem to no longer be able to do such things on here.

[sim]

Very true. Unless there was a way to have the signaling system handle the presence of buses as well?

Still would only really work when the tracks aren't full of trains. As it is right now, my train has to stop and wait pretty much every day because there are always 2 trains ahead of it pulling into Crowfoot. Any more traffic on the lines would mean gridlock (I realize that Crowchild wouldn't see buses on the ROW, but the principle is the same on any fully utilized line).


This is something I've never really understood. I'm not sure it it's at all the end stations, but at Dalhousie the 3rd train would always wait on whichever one was to leave first- before the switch (obviously.)

Why wouldn't the train that pulls in, and after unloading passengers go further past the station, switch there and then line up to load passengers again, allowing any other incoming train to also unload? Seems like a pretty easy solution to me for peak hour service to avoid that wait. Maybe I'm overlooking something?

[freeweed]

Safety issue for the driver, perhaps? Of course they do just this at the end of the day anyway, so who knows.

[MalcolmTucker]

Tram and Bus Stop
(http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Munich,+Bavaria,+Germany&ll=48.158223,11.511583&spn=0.000092,0.00066&t=h&z=21&layer=c&cbll=48.158223,11.511583&panoid=eNAB0hpjbYU72pg5zBGq-A&cbp=12,223.32,,0,5)

Here is an example of what you are talking about. Buses use that right of way as well, even though it can't directly be seen in that image. As can be seen, however, these are trams and not Low Floor LRVs but I don't see why it couldn't also work.



I would link the image directly, but for whatever reason I seem to no longer be able to do such things on here.
There the train would be under street rules - the difficulty is adding one bus anywhere in the system impairs the entire rail line. There is no reason a bus should travel along a ROW that carries trains. People can transfer.

I know it would be good for some customers - if we built a system that had customer service as the number one goal (embodied in point to point trips without transfers) we would build a busway like Ottawa's. One of the reasons transit is successful in Calgary is that subsidy constraints to 50% of the operational budget force the system to be run smartly, and to cut routes that might attract more ridership but would cost a lot of money. As more C-Train routes are built better and better feeder bus services can be implemented with the same amount of service increasing frequency far above what could be achieved on a direct to destination service model such as Ottawa's.

[mersar]

Why wouldn't the train that pulls in, and after unloading passengers go further past the station, switch there and then line up to load passengers again, allowing any other incoming train to also unload? Seems like a pretty easy solution to me for peak hour service to avoid that wait. Maybe I'm overlooking something?

Just a matter of system design. The Skytrain in Vancouver operates like this at King George station I believe, though having the trains automated it does change things slightly. Though I'm not so sure that it would actually speed thins up in reality, though it may seem faster (what it would do is force everyone to board all at once, rather then staggered over the 3-10 minutes the train is waiting at the terminal station)

[Cage]

Skytrains automated system is a big advantage to having separate loading and unloading platforms at the terminal stations. Trains can switch directions in about 30 seconds.

At Crowfoot Ctrain station it takes about 3-4 minutes for a driver to shutdown at one end, walk to the other end, startup and go. At present this is accomplished by completing shut down and lock off while passengers are disembarking (about 45 seconds). By the time the last passenger has left Ctrain the driver is has walked about 1/3 the way up the train. The time spent unloading and locking off would have to be separated and likely take the train longer than 5 minutes to turn around.

The solution however can be found in New York Subway. The Subway employs extra drivers such that there is a driver stationed at the other end to hop on and immediately begin startup procedures. If this were done at Crowfoot there would be 2-4 minutes of savings. Addiitonally the drivers could do breaks during the down time (e.g. station 3 extra drivers at Crowfoot to account for 15 minute break.

[MalcolmTucker]

^^^ Makes sense once frequencies warrant, but I can't see it being a technical limitation on capacity until the subway is built.

[sim]

Just a matter of system design. The Skytrain in Vancouver operates like this at King George station I believe, though having the trains automated it does change things slightly. Though I'm not so sure that it would actually speed thins up in reality, though it may seem faster (what it would do is force everyone to board all at once, rather then staggered over the 3-10 minutes the train is waiting at the terminal station)


No no, I mean the one train (let´s call it the 2nd in the sequence) would then go wait out in the back to make way for the 3rd one (incoming) thus still allowing for the 1st one (the one due to leave) to have plenty of time to load. Once it zips out, the 2nd one pulls up, becoming the new 1st one, and repeat.

I think even with the current system this is possible isn´t it? Isn't there a switch behind the station? There should be!

[MalcolmTucker]

Solution in search of a problem.

[freeweed]

Solution in search of a problem.

How can you imply it's not a problem? Sitting on a motionless train for upwards of 5 minutes on the way home (and then often missing your feeder bus) is a huge pain in the ass for hundreds of people at a time. And this goes on for hours every evening.

[frinkprof]

Solution in search of a problem.

How can you imply it's not a problem? Sitting on a motionless train for upwards of 5 minutes on the way home (and then often missing your feeder bus) is a huge pain in the ass for hundreds of people at a time. And this goes on for hours every evening.I have to agree with Freeweed and Sim here. If the problem isn't the need to increase frequency (at least right now, and likely not until well after the tunnel is built), then it is the need to decrease travel times and/or improve reliability, as Freeweed points out.

The next bottleneck after the 7th Avenue interlining is the speed of turnarounds at the terminus stations.

[MalcolmTucker]

The solutions above have significant capital and operational costs. Easier to solve is to keep faster runs closer to schedule, by perhaps advising slower speed limits for the last couple sections of a run when a train is going fast, or by accounting for the faster run time at different times of the day in schedules.

To have to wait five minutes is likely an exaggeration - it means a particular train basically caught up with the one ahead of it. If it happens continuously (almost like a standing traffic wave) it means the schedule is wrong.

If you attempt solve the problem at the ends by clearing trains faster without improving the scheduels, you will just end up with a pack of trains traveling, each being delayed by the one in front of it along the entire line rather than solely at the termini. (this happens in Toronto on the streetcars which comply with timetables in only rough form since they don't use signaling, so much so that trains are canceled and reversed mid run to try to rebalance the line.)

May have to try to fix this in the future when headways get really short and trains get longer (likely won't be able to walk a 5 car train and complete a shutdown and startup in 4 minutes) but with frequencies at two minutes I have no doubt there will be more than enough people taking breaks at the termini to make quick handoffs the norm.

[mersar]

TVM's have been installed at 4th Street station. So we should be down to only a couple weeks at most before it reopens. My money is on January 25th.

[freeweed]

To have to wait five minutes is likely an exaggeration - it means a particular train basically caught up with the one ahead of it. If it happens continuously (almost like a standing traffic wave) it means the schedule is wrong.

You're mostly right about this. 5 minutes is the extreme but every single day with very few exceptions it's 1-2 minutes that my train sits under the Nose Hill Dr. overpass, waiting for a departing train. About 1/3 of the time, we also wait just west of Silver Springs Gate/Sarcee, which means we're waiting on 2 trains.

The schedule is designed for near-continuous trains moving through 7th Ave, which is great by the way. I rarely wait more than 2 mins for a train when leaving downtown during the peak. But it catches up with the system at the terminals. Not sure how the schedule could be adjusted to fix this - I think a lot of it is due to the fact that trains sit for lights and frequent stops on 7th, but they move damn fast once they're past Banff Trail - basically 80km/h with very few stops.

[srperrycgy]

Found this on the CT website:

Transit E-mail Alerts (http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/transit_email_alerts_information_2011.html)

You provide your e-mail and CT will send you alerts based on your preferences.

[mersar]

A great find. They've already used it to send out a notice about this weekends 201 schedule changes due to work at Erlton.

Noticed tonight that the LED's are on at 4th Street as well... platform looked to be cleared of some construction debris as well from what I could tell from a distance.

[Policy Wonk]

A C-Train just about took out a police car on 7th today,

[freeweed]

Finally got a ride in the new LRT cars. Not bad - they definitely have more seating than one would expect (I count 11 seats for every 12 in the old setup), however they're the contoured style so they assume everyone is a 30" waist. It got very uncomfortable very quickly once every seat was full.

In terms of jamming the doorways - it was interesting to watch. The new cars definitely encourage people to move into the car - but only at first. So you don't see the first 4-5 people cramming the doorway immediately, which is good. However once more than a handful of people are standing in the middle of the car, the doorways get jammed up anyway. Until they're too full, then finally it occurs to people to spread out into the comparatively empty middle of the car.

I really liked the "next station" announcements but the timing was a tad off, this may be because it's a new feature. The end-of-car signs for stops was awesome (about time!) however you can't actually see them during rush hour when 30 people are jammed up against the sign.

Very smooth ride. Not sure if it's just because they're new, or if someone has finally figured out how to make an LRT car that has suspension. But wow - I was very impressed. Maybe we just had the best driver ever.

[mersar]

I really liked the "next station" announcements but the timing was a tad off, this may be because it's a new feature. The end-of-car signs for stops was awesome (about time!) however you can't actually see them during rush hour when 30 people are jammed up against the sign.

Its something thats still a bit buggy. It isn't based fully on GPS, but also on RFID transmitters on the caternary poles and the distance travelled (GPS is pretty much useless in the downtown, or in the tunnels which is why this system was devised). So every once in a while the operator needs to sync up the train with where its actually at, at least until they get things a bit more automated.

Very smooth ride. Not sure if it's just because they're new, or if someone has finally figured out how to make an LRT car that has suspension. But wow - I was very impressed. Maybe we just had the best driver ever.

Yep, the new cars do ride a lot smoother. Part of it actually though I think isn't just that the ride is smoother, but even on the older LRV's it feels smoother if you are in the inwards facing seats rather then the front or back facing seats (at least it does for me).

[frinkprof]

A C-Train just about took out a police car on 7th today,As I understand it, this isn't altogether uncommon due to the LRT sharing 7th Avenue with emergency vehicles. In discussing it with transit operators (consider the source of course), it's often times the fault of the emergency vehicles, usually turning sharply on or off 7th Avenue in front of moving trains. Makes sense since they rule the roads everywhere else whereas on 7th Avenue they tend to forget that they have a several-ton train barreling down on them that can't stop as quickly and also can't swerve or pull over.

[freeweed]

Its something thats still a bit buggy. It isn't based fully on GPS, but also on RFID transmitters on the caternary poles and the distance travelled (GPS is pretty much useless in the downtown, or in the tunnels which is why this system was devised). So every once in a while the operator needs to sync up the train with where its actually at, at least until they get things a bit more automated.

Thanks for the info; I was wondering if it was manually triggered by the driver, or automated, and if so, how. This must mean we're *very* close to signs at platforms saying "next train, 5 mins" etc.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well next train signs were funded no?

In any case, they are very hard to keep reliable except in completly new builds (but who knows, maybe Canada Line's next train signs will start to break down next year)

[Aegis]

Off vehicle fare payment.

Fare payment isn't the only reason why customers hold up a transit vehicle.

[CTrainDude]

Well next train signs were funded no?
They were funded, and they are on the way...not that I'm anti-Nenshi or anything, but I hope he doesn't get the credit when they do show up. They've been in the works for a couple of years, so he had zero to do with it. They should be showing up later this year.

[fusili]

Fare payment isn't the only reason why customers hold up a transit vehicle.

What other reasons are there? Multiple doors and off vehicle fare payment can significantly speed up station times of buses almost to the point of a rail vehicle. And wouldn't other delays apply to any trains as well. Just because the system isn't perfect, doesn't mean it isn't good.

[srperrycgy]

Fare payment isn't the only reason why customers hold up a transit vehicle.

Next time I'm boarding a bus, I won't say "Hi" or "Thank You" to the operator....because it slows boarding down soooooo much. :rolleyes:

[MalcolmTucker]

He will get credit, that is just the nature of the beast.

[freeweed]

Nenshi also shouldn't get credit for removing the Park 'n Ride fee - I was vocally against that from the very first rumours.

[Aegis]

Next time I'm boarding a bus, I won't say "Hi" or "Thank You" to the operator....because it slows boarding down soooooo much. :rolleyes:

Are you serious?

My original point was, why create a weakness in the system (one vehicle holding up the rest) when you can avoid the problem by separating the two modes without much additional land use or cost. The benefit of the land savings doesn't seem to outweigh the time loss to users.

Fusili responded to the content of what I was saying..do you have an argument that is content-based, or just purely sarcastic..?

[fusili]

Are you serious?

My original point was, why create a weakness in the system (one vehicle holding up the rest) when you can avoid the problem by separating the two modes without much additional land use or cost. The benefit of the land savings doesn't seem to outweigh the time loss to users.

Fusili responded to the content of what I was saying..do you have an argument that is content-based, or just purely sarcastic..?

The idea was meant to use it in land-restricted areas. When you don't have the space, you need to make compromises. On any urban ROW in the City, it would be difficult to fit a ROW for a train and a bus. Hence the sharing.

[srperrycgy]

Are you serious?

Fusili responded to the content of what I was saying..do you have an argument that is content-based, or just purely sarcastic..?

Sarcasm was appropriate. So I went with that.

[Aegis]

Sarcasm was appropriate. So I went with that.

I thought it was kind of lame, actually.

[The Avid Pedestrian]

Hi all,

I've been following this blog for a year or so now and am excited to be joining the discussion!

[CTrainDude]

Hi all,

I've been following this blog for a year or so now and am excited to be joining the discussion!

Welcome!:)

[fusili]

Hi all,

I've been following this blog for a year or so now and am excited to be joining the discussion!

Welcome to the forum Avid Pedestrian.

[The Avid Pedestrian]

An idea I wanted to share wrt SE LRT alignment entering downtown.

Ken King and the Calgary Flames intend to build a new arena and one of the proposed sites is the parking lot NW of the 'Dome. Whether or not that location becomes the ultimate site, I think it should be considered when envisioning the downtown SE LRT alignment. Imagine how convenient travel to-from games would be if the NW-S and SE-NC LRT lines connected with the new Arena!

Just throwing it out there

[mersar]

Well the SE alignment is pretty much set in stone. But it likely will be no more then a stones throw from the new arena, no matter where its built (the proposed station location for that area is at 4th Street SE and 10th Ave on the south side of the CP right of way)

[frinkprof]

Transit’s GPS era not far off

KATIE TURNER

METRO CALGARY
Published: January 07, 2011 5:48 a.m.
Last modified: January 07, 2011 12:53 a.m.


Commuters will soon have a real-time look at where their train or bus is as Calgary Transit prepares to roll out its GPS system.

Ron Collins of Calgary Transit said GPS installation in trains could be done this spring.

“It’s part of our whole way to introduce new technology into the whole system and make things easier for customers,” said Collins, adding GPS tracking will be installed on C-Trains starting this April.

By June 2012, Collins said, they should have GPS on bus rapid transit, and by December 2012, all buses should be equipped.

Leigh McDonald of Mediumrare, the Calgary company that designed the recently released Calgary Transit smartphone application, said they hope to incorporate the tracking into their app.

[...]Link to rest of the article (http://www.metronews.ca/calgary/local/article/736943--transit-s-gps-era-not-far-off)

[Wooster]

^wow, I had no idea transit had plans to put gps on all busses within a couple of years. That would be fantastic.

[Canadian74]

Is the system similar to the GPS systems on Vancouver transit buses? Or is that something else?

[frinkprof]

Is the system similar to the GPS systems on Vancouver transit buses? Or is that something else?Beats me. To be of much use though, it would have to be coupled with either an RFID network or an INS.

[freeweed]

I only hope CT has the sense to make this data openly available, instead of locked behind a brand-specific smartphone app.

[frinkprof]

Here's a new survey by Calgary Transit regarding the Park and Ride fee. Asks questions about your use of the lots before and after the fee was implemented, your evaluation of aspects of the service, your opinion on the proposed paid-reserved spots idea for portions of the lots, etc.

It takes about 5 minutes to do and is for both users and non-users of the Park and Ride lots.

Calgary Transit link: http://www.calgarytransit.com/survey/index.html

Survey itself: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CT2011ParkAndRideSurvey

[UofC.engineer]

Today on my way back from school I rode on one of the new Siemens SD 160. I was sadly disappointed tho because the outside display on the side of the car was turned off, and on the inside the display kept repeating "Next Stop" --> "Crowfoot" even tho it was heading south.:( Hopefully the city can fix this soon, because what is the point of buying new trains with electronic displays if you aren't going to use the displays.

What also grinded my gears was that standing passengers didn't move to the middle of the train, they just stood by the doors!! Idiots!! I thought these trains were suppose to encourage people to not stand by the doors.

[freeweed]

Kinda late for CT to be doing surveys such as this...

[YYCguys]

What also grinded my gears was that standing passengers didn't move to the middle of the train, they just stood by the doors!! Idiots!! I thought these trains were suppose to encourage people to not stand by the doors.

Ditto! And...
It also chews me up that people wanting to get on the train don't give disembarking passengers the chance to exit. They just push their way onto the train! :hell:

[The Avid Pedestrian]

Is the system similar to the GPS systems on Vancouver transit buses? Or is that something else?

To my knowledge (I live in Vancouver and I use Translink exlusively for transport in City) the new buses to arrive in Vancouver are equipt with GPS but this information is not displayed at any bus stops of SkyTrain stns (with the exception of the Canada Line). By the timeline suggested in the article FrinkProf posted, Calgary will likely beat Vancouver (translink) in implementation

Even when the 98 B-Line (replaced by Canada Line) displayed arrival information at bus stops, it was actually a scheduled bus times and did not reflect real time arrivals. In pre-Canada Line days, I'd often be waiting at a 98 B-Line stop and it would display bus in, say, 8 minutes, and one would arrive. or it would say bus due, and one wouldnt arrive for several minutes

I hope that the GPS system Calgary implements has real time arrival information (like buses in London) as displaying scheduled times does not require an LED display - a paper schedule would suffice

Can anyone provide additional information or a reference to such info? Cheers,

[frinkprof]

To my knowledge (I live in Vancouver and I use Translink exlusively for transport in City) the new buses to arrive in Vancouver are equipt with GPS but this information is not displayed at any bus stops of SkyTrain stns (with the exception of the Canada Line). By the timeline suggested in the article FrinkProf posted, Calgary will likely beat Vancouver (translink) in implementation

Even when the 98 B-Line (replaced by Canada Line) displayed arrival information at bus stops, it was actually a scheduled bus times and did not reflect real time arrivals. In pre-Canada Line days, I'd often be waiting at a 98 B-Line stop and it would display bus in, say, 8 minutes, and one would arrive. or it would say bus due, and one wouldnt arrive for several minutes

I hope that the GPS system Calgary implements has real time arrival information (like buses in London) as displaying scheduled times does not require an LED display - a paper schedule would suffice

Can anyone provide additional information or a reference to such info? Cheers,Yes it is supposed to be real-time arrival information. There will be displays at LRT and BRT stops, and for all other bus routes it is supposed to be available on smart phone applications.

[MalcolmTucker]

Even when the 98 B-Line (replaced by Canada Line) displayed arrival information at bus stops, it was actually a scheduled bus times and did not reflect real time arrivals. In pre-Canada Line days, I'd often be waiting at a 98 B-Line stop and it would display bus in, say, 8 minutes, and one would arrive. or it would say bus due, and one wouldnt arrive for several minutes

To my knowledge the B-Line system was designed to be real time, it just never worked all that well with plenty of outages. It was definitely at the bleeding edge when implemented, and it showed. Bus options for next stop systems always seem to me to be very small vendors, whereas for rail systems they are usually part of the signaling provider (unless retrofitted later).

At least the company CT got is local (if my memory serves, I don't care to go look up the article) so they will be more likely to really care about making the system right!

Someone should also remind Calgary Transit that Blackberry's are still by far the number one smart phone in the country, and ignoring them, or not providing a comparable mobile internet site accessible to all connected devices would be a big waste.

[fusili]

To my knowledge (I live in Vancouver and I use Translink exlusively for transport in City) the new buses to arrive in Vancouver are equipt with GPS but this information is not displayed at any bus stops of SkyTrain stns (with the exception of the Canada Line). By the timeline suggested in the article FrinkProf posted, Calgary will likely beat Vancouver (translink) in implementation

Even when the 98 B-Line (replaced by Canada Line) displayed arrival information at bus stops, it was actually a scheduled bus times and did not reflect real time arrivals. In pre-Canada Line days, I'd often be waiting at a 98 B-Line stop and it would display bus in, say, 8 minutes, and one would arrive. or it would say bus due, and one wouldnt arrive for several minutes

I hope that the GPS system Calgary implements has real time arrival information (like buses in London) as displaying scheduled times does not require an LED display - a paper schedule would suffice

Can anyone provide additional information or a reference to such info? Cheers,

Barcelona actually counts down the seconds to the metro arriving. Almost every time it was accurate within 10 seconds. It is nice as a passenger to be able to arrive at the station and say "Sweet, the train will be here in 45 seconds." It also helped that the headways were all 5 minutes or less.

[Innersoul1]

Any word on if or when CT will be going to an electronic swipe-type fare system?

[frinkprof]

Any word on if or when CT will be going to an electronic swipe-type fare system?I believe this is supposed to be done by 2012.

If I recall correctly, there was an RFP process to procure a vendor for the design of the system and one was chosen. Now it is just a matter of implementing it.

------------------

In other news, 4th Street West Station will not open this Friday. We are looking at possibly the 21st or more probably the 28th for an opening date. As per CTrainDude.

[Northski]

Real time information for LRT is kind of useless. If frequencies are 5 minutes or 10 minutes your not going to adjust your behavior. Service disruptions announcements are of course highly useful.

It would be more useful to have real time information on the less frequent, least reliable, routes. For example routes like 73/72 and 20 come worse then randomly during bad weather.

[Wooster]

^ Real time information is not just about adjusting behavior. It really does make a big difference in riding a train to know the train is coming in 3 minutes as opposed to 7 or 8. I'm not sure why, but the knowledge really does make the ridership experience more enjoyable and less stressful. When I was in Toronto, real time info for the subway, even though frequencies are really good, felt like a god-send.

[freeweed]

^ Real time information is not just about adjusting behavior. It really does make a big difference in riding a train to know the train is coming in 3 minutes as opposed to 7 or 8. I'm not sure why, but the knowledge really does make the ridership experience more enjoyable and less stressful. When I was in Toronto, real time info for the subway, even though frequencies are really good, felt like a god-send.

Absolutely. When the windchill hit -27 or whatever yesterday, and I had to wait for 2 City Centre trains, it sure would have been nice to know that at least my Crowfoot train was coming EVENTUALLY. For all I knew there was a service disruption - knowing it was 5 minutes away would at least calm me down, or heck, let me go inside for a few minutes to warm up.

Still more useful on infrequent buses, but it's awesome on trains. In London it was phenomenal even on trains with 3 minute service.

[fusili]

^ Real time information is not just about adjusting behavior. It really does make a big difference in riding a train to know the train is coming in 3 minutes as opposed to 7 or 8. I'm not sure why, but the knowledge really does make the ridership experience more enjoyable and less stressful. When I was in Toronto, real time info for the subway, even though frequencies are really good, felt like a god-send.

It also lets people pop into a convenience store or coffee shop to grab something quickly if the train is going to be a bit. Even for people such as myself, I might take the train if it is coming soon, or I might just walk.

Additionally, putting GPS in the trains and buses makes lots of sense because it provides a huge source of information to analyze vehicle speeds and operations. Decisions concerning traffic signal timing, intersection design etc etc are made much better though proper information. For example NYC has put GPS units into all the taxis in the city. Because of this, they can analyze the impact of any changes on average traffic flow and speeds. This is how they learnt that closing Broadway for 4 blocks actually improved traffic.

[Radley77]

I think the GPS will help people manage their time better. If it saves even one minute of time waiting at a stop, then based on about 160 million trips annually in Calgary for ridership, then it has saved 304 manyears in time in one year. I think that's phenemonal value.

[MalcolmTucker]

As long as it is relatively cheap, it is pretty good value. In the last couple of years the price to do it seems to really have dropped. That being said, besides major transfer points (LRT stations, some intersections) it is still way too expensive to install for the marginal utility which is close to zero (while it might transform 'perceived waiting time' which is most often a multiple of real time into real time, it still does not 'save' time.

Real economic utility comes from real time information being fed to online and smartphone capable trip planners and a newer teleride system (and perhaps a text-ride for the no smart phone crowd).

[The Chemist]

Barcelona actually counts down the seconds to the metro arriving. Almost every time it was accurate within 10 seconds. It is nice as a passenger to be able to arrive at the station and say "Sweet, the train will be here in 45 seconds." It also helped that the headways were all 5 minutes or less.

They do this on the Shanghai Metro as well. And it's usually very accurate. :)

[srperrycgy]

It would be more useful to have real time information on the less frequent, least reliable, routes. For example routes like 73/72 and 20 come worse then randomly during bad weather.

I can vouch for this situation tonight. Got the bus stop at 5:10 and waited until 5:50 when 4 #72 buses appeared. Asked the operator where the delay was. CN was doing their railcar shunting at their crossing of Barlow Trail in the Foothills Ind. I'm only just getting warm again.

[Ferreth]

I can vouch for this situation tonight. Got the bus stop at 5:10 and waited until 5:50 when 4 #72 buses appeared. Asked the operator where the delay was. CN was doing their railcar shunting at their crossing of Barlow Trail in the Foothills Ind. I'm only just getting warm again.

I hate that RR intersection! I hope that one is still in the works for a grade separated crossing in the next 2 years. I just about went home that way today, but my spidey road sense correctly steered me to Deerfoot instead today!

[Ramsayfarian]

I hate that RR intersection! I hope that one is still in the works for a grade separated crossing in the next 2 years. I just about went home that way today, but my spidey road sense correctly steered me to Deerfoot instead today!

I thought CN had plans tor relocate that rail yard.

/edit
http://www.cn.ca/en/customer-news-calgary-logistics-park-20100204.htm

[Ferreth]

I thought CN had plans tor relocate that rail yard.

/edit
http://www.cn.ca/en/customer-news-calgary-logistics-park-20100204.htm

Forgot about that - I'd assume the City will have changed its plans then, not like there isn't something else the money can be used on.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well, some functions are leaving that yard, but some will stay.

From the release:
With a scheduled opening expected in 2013, most of CN's Calgary yard operations will shift to the new Logistics Park. CN will also continue to provide quality rail service to customers along its existing lines in the City of Calgary.

[fusili]

Has anyone else checked out San Fran's plans for a "Grand Central Station" in their downtown, called the Transbay Terminal? It is freaking sweet. Best thing ever!

Check it out:

http://transbaycenter.org/

I know we will never have anything close to this level of station design in Calgary, but OMMFG it is awesome!

[You Need A Thneed]

Double post.

[You Need A Thneed]

Has anyone else checked out San Fran's plans for a "Grand Central Station" in their downtown, called the Transbay Terminal? It is freaking sweet. Best thing ever!

Check it out:

http://transbaycenter.org/

I know we will never have anything close to this level of station design in Calgary, but OMMFG it is awesome!

That competition picked the wrong winner, though.

They should have picked this design for the tower. (http://www.som.com/content.cfm/transbay_transit_center)

[UofC.engineer]

Has anyone else checked out San Fran's plans for a "Grand Central Station" in their downtown, called the Transbay Terminal? It is freaking sweet. Best thing ever!

Check it out:

http://transbaycenter.org/

I know we will never have anything close to this level of station design in Calgary, but OMMFG it is awesome!

Looks pretty Ballin'!

I guess that is what $45 billion dollars of high speed rail gets you

[Policy Wonk]

Has anyone else checked out San Fran's plans for a "Grand Central Station" in their downtown, called the Transbay Terminal? It is freaking sweet. Best thing ever!

Check it out:

http://transbaycenter.org/

I know we will never have anything close to this level of station design in Calgary, but OMMFG it is awesome!

It is a bit of a waste since it will be crackhead central and a place the public avoids immediately after opening, just like the original Transbay terminal.

[Ramsayfarian]

Well, some functions are leaving that yard, but some will stay.

From the release:

The move should still make a huge difference with regards to impeding traffic

[fusili]

That competition picked the wrong winner, though.

They should have picked this design for the tower. (http://www.som.com/content.cfm/transbay_transit_center)

I like this tower, and the terminal was pretty awesome, but I did like the rooftop park of the accepted proposal.

[fusili]

It is a bit of a waste since it will be crackhead central and a place the public avoids immediately after opening, just like the original Transbay terminal.

Aww, why do you have to spoil our fun?