[Jonovision]

There has been a fair amount of talk about these lands over the past few weeks and now finally an article with real information about what will be happening. Sounds great to me! And the information meeting for this is Monday the 15th at 7pm in the auditorium at DHS.

Highrises planned in Starr area


By CHRIS LAMBIE Business Editor

A three-building residential de velopment proposed for down town Dartmouth that’s estimated to cost as much as $60 million is about to get a public airing.

Darrell Dixon’s plan includes building a seven-storey complex on Ochterloney Street, beside the former Greenvale School, which

Dexel Developments is tur ning into a complex of 36 loft-style apartments.

Dixon, who didn’t return calls Friday, also wants to build a 14-storey tower on the corner of Queen and Pine streets, and a 22-storey building on a vacant lot behind the former school off the Pine Street Extension.

“We want to get as many people living downtown as we can," said Coun. Gloria McCluskey (Dartmouth Centre).

A public information meeting on the project is slated for 7 p.m. Monday at Dartmouth High School.

Sobeys Land Holdings Ltd . owns the chunks of property where Dixon plans to erect the seven storey and 22-storey buildings.

“They were going to put a gro cery store there," McCluskey said. “They only did it because they thought that Atlantic Super sto re

was going to buy part of the Starr Manufacturing property. And, of course, (the city is) not selling the Starr property, so So beys dropped it."

A numbered Nova Scotia com pany headed by Dixon owns the other nearby property where he wants to build.

“This developer has the Sobeys land under agreement, so he has a purchase-and-sale agreement with them," said Mitch Dickey, a city planner.

Under the current zoning, Dix on could now construct a 24-unit building on each of the four lots. The buildings could be as tall as 21 metres.

But Dixon, a construction man ager who does work for Shannex,

wants to create about 300 units, Dickey said.

The developer hasn’t told the planner whether they’ll be apart ments or condominiums. “That’s something he’ll let the market de­cide," Dickey said.

Dixon is asking the city for an amendment to the municipal planning strategy that would al low the three buildings he’s pro posed.

“What guides us on that is com munity feedback," Dickey said.

A lot of low-rise buildings have gone up in downtown Dartmouth over the past decade, he said.

“Generally the feedback is not good on how they look or what their quality is like," Dickey said. Locals who have already com mented on Dixon’s plan want to make sure the project is attrac tive and of good quality, he said.

“He’s proposing very modern buildings. The renderings are at tractive," Dickey said.

“He’s proposing a more tradi tional design for the Ochterloney Street building — something that would complement Greenvale School with a brick finish on it. And then the other two buildings would be more modern and con temporary."

The downtown plan calls for pe destrian- friendly streets. It aims to ensure new development brings people off the sidewalk right into a business, Dickey said. The plan wants to promote “lively streetscapes . . . with a va riety of architecture," he said.

“At the sidewalk level, build ings should really not exceed three storeys in height. They would have to step back for any level above the third floor, and that’s what (Dixon’s) showing for this proposal."

The city will likely require him to have commercial space in the largest building, which abuts the former Starr Manufacturing site. Besides the former skate facto ry, levelled a decade ago, the site also borders the Shubenacadie Canal.

As part of his proposal, Dixon is offering to fund improvements to the public space called the Canal Greenway, which runs down Prince Albert Road from Sulli vans Pond to Halifax Harbour.

(clambie@herald.ca)

[jasonashhh]

Wow what a boom that would be for the downtown area with Kings wharf already starting and this one that may start. If all goes well i could see downtown Dartmouth having more highrises then the Halifax downtown. I hope too see more projects coming into the Dartmouth side anyways seeing Halifax is just a reject. Lett herrrr flyyyy!

[ZET]

Probaly best to rename this thread since that part of Pine Street is being renamed Irishtown Road fairly soon. ZET

[hfx_chris]

Probaly best to rename this thread since that part of Pine Street is being renamed Irishtown Road fairly soon. ZET
That's silly and makes no sense what so ever.

[Dmajackson]

Probaly best to rename this thread since that part of Pine Street is being renamed Irishtown Road fairly soon. ZET

Fairly soon in the case means tomorrow ...

[ZET]

That's silly and makes no sense what so ever.

http://www.halifax.ca/planning/documents/Case15781FactSheetPIM.pdf

Hey Chris, I'm not making this stuff up. It was originally reported by Bedford DJ. Sounds better than Pine St extension. ZET

[Jonovision]

That is true. I forgot about the rename. Can a moderator change the name please.

[hfx_chris]

Hey Chris, I'm not making this stuff up. It was originally reported by Bedford DJ. Sounds better than Pine St extension. ZET
I never said you were. And I don't know one Dartmouth resident who ever refers to this two block section of road as Pine Street Extension - that may be its name on paper, but in normal use it's just Pine Street - which sounds a hell of a lot better than Irishtown Road.

:koko:

[JET]

I never said you were. And I don't know one Dartmouth resident who ever refers to this two block section of road as Pine Street Extension - that may be its name on paper, but in normal use it's just Pine Street - which sounds a hell of a lot better than Irishtown Road.

:koko:

People in that area would know the difference. With the name change it might not make it so hard to get a pizza delivered correctly. Irishtown Road, sounded a bit odd to me at first, but when i read up on the Irish history in that area (particularly the whiskey distillery) it seems to fit.
http://www.halifaxnewsnet.ca/index.cfm?sid=317955&sc=608

[hfx_chris]

People in that area would know the difference. With the name change it might not make it so hard to get a pizza delivered correctly.
Of course they know the difference. My point was that nobody actually calls that Pine Street extension - it's just Pine Street. The street signs never said Pine Street extension, they all said Pine Street.

[mcmcclassic]

Did anyone go to the public open house for this proposal tonight?

[Haliguy]

Did anyone go to the public open house for this proposal tonight?

Just seen it on the news tonight..a lot of people were concerned about the height of the 22 story building. Of cross they probably only interviewed the people against it.

[JET]

Just seen it on the news tonight..a lot of people were concerned about the height of the 22 story building. Of cross they probably only interviewed the people against it.

I attended, most people supported the nine stories for Ochterloney, and so-so for the 14 story bldg., but only one person supported 23 stories.
For me 23 stories butting up against the canal greenway (it will take the whole footprint) is not a good fit. There is a spot on Devonshire, 1/2 block away (accross from my front door), where 23 stories could fit in. The other issue is that it was described as a slender bldg. , but it is not. The Kings Wharf Tower is a slender bldg. Something like that could mabey fit in that spot. I also feel bad for greenvale, since it will be surrounded by height.
It was a meeting to look at a variance, so he may come back with plan B. JET

[Jonovision]

I was also there and the whole development is being referred to as The Seagate Residence. It's quite an ambitious plan. And I too think the 23 stories is pushing it a little. But I have a feeling the developer is presenting his biggest plan now full well knowing that he will build something smaller. But that is just speculation on my part.

I do like the look of the buildings. Nice glass curtain wall and full of balconies. No dead walls. And the plan for the Canal Greenway looks amazing as well.

[Dmajackson]

I have a hard time imagining a 23 storey building in Dartmouth. There are no comparable heights on that side of the harbour to get a scale for the project.

That being said if it is of high quality and has setbacks then the buildings might look great in the background of Dartmouth's ever expanding skyline.

I guess two questions I have for whoever attended the meeting is will most of the lots be covered by a base for the taller buildings? and if I'm not mistaken these lots are at a bottom of a steep hill so how much of the taller building would be hidden from the local streets/waterfront?

[fenwick16]

I have a hard time imagining a 23 storey building in Dartmouth. There are no comparable heights on that side of the harbour to get a scale for the project.

That being said if it is of high quality and has setbacks then the buildings might look great in the background of Dartmouth's ever expanding skyline.

I guess two questions I have for whoever attended the meeting is will most of the lots be covered by a base for the taller buildings? and if I'm not mistaken these lots are at a bottom of a steep hill so how much of the taller building would be hidden from the local streets/waterfront?

There is Queen Square which is a 18 story office building. Since office buildings have higher storey heights (usually about 13-15 feet per story for an office building versus about 10 feet per storey for an apartment building) this would be equivalent to about a 24 storey apartment building.

I just hope that new developments in Dartmouth will be built a bit more aesthetically pleasing than the Queen Square.

[JET]

I guess two questions I have for whoever attended the meeting is will most of the lots be covered by a base for the taller buildings? and if I'm not mistaken these lots are at a bottom of a steep hill so how much of the taller building would be hidden from the local streets/waterfront?

It looked like the nine story building would cover most of the lot on Ochterloney (not such a great thing, if true), the 23 story building would have a base that would cover the entire lot of the old bowling alley, with maybe shops on the main floor facing the canal grreenway. The builing looked fairly wide east-to-west. The laundromat/parking lot (14 story building looked to fill the entire lot. Some one mentioned mentioned that the top of the tall builing was the same height as the top of brightwood. The main floor of the tall bulding is probably the same level as the surface at the kings wharf lands, and some ppalces would have a good view of it; if it doesn't get reduced in height. My main cocern was the crowding on Greenvale; a bit tight and looming. JET

[hfx_chris]

Agreed, Greenvale would be squished... that's a huge shame, I'm seriously considering this building...

[JET]

Agreed, Greenvale would be squished... that's a huge shame, I'm seriously considering this building...

As jonovision mentioned, the pictures for the three buildings were only preliminary. He probably shot for big expecting they would need to be pared down. Greenvale and the canal area are a primary focus of any proposals being considered. I noted that some of the lofts at greenvale will have patios on the east side facing Cobb park. JET

[canada90]

is there any photos or visualations..? how this project will look like :)

[JET]

is there any photos or visualations..? how this project will look like :)

There were some at the meeting, and Mitch Dickey from planning had mentioned trying to post them on the city website. There wasn't a drawing showing how all the buildings would fit on the lots, which would have helped.
PS Welcome to the Forum. JET

[Empire]

is there any photos or visualations..? how this project will look like :)

The 14 & 23 storey buildings are far too basic. Granted they are only sketches at this point but they don't instill any confidence that they will be great looking buildings. I think this is a huge mistake by the developer. The reference to glass curtain wall is not obvious. There is a similarity to nearby Seacoast tower which is all bad. If he is really trying to build a 23 storey building in a two storey neighbourhood then I feel the approach is way off base. The 14 & 23 storey buildings are identical in design (whatever that is)?

I think the developer would have a much greater chance of getting the taller buildings approved if they looked like some of the buildings on Central Park West in New York. Much less detail of course but more of that type of design than just a box like the ugly buildings beside MicMac Mall.

[Jonovision]

I think the developer would have a much greater chance of getting the taller buildings approved if they looked like some of the buildings on Central Park West in New York. Much less detail of course but more of that type of design than just a box like the ugly buildings beside MicMac Mall.

I think the reference to the Horizon towers is a bit far. Those are drab concrete boxes. This proposal is calling for curved glass towers full of balconies. Much much better then the towers by MicMac. And I think towers similar to those along Central Park in NYC would feel much more heavy and dominant in the area. Glass at least reflects the sky and has less of an impact. Big stone towers would feel like giant monoliths.

[Empire]

I think the reference to the Horizon towers is a bit far. Those are drab concrete boxes. This proposal is calling for curved glass towers full of balconies. Much much better then the towers by MicMac. And I think towers similar to those along Central Park in NYC would feel much more heavy and dominant in the area. Glass at least reflects the sky and has less of an impact. Big stone towers would feel like giant monoliths.

They may be calling for curved glass towers but they were showing square precast boxes.

[JET]

They may be calling for curved glass towers but they were showing square precast boxes.

Empire, were we at the same meeting? The tall building was anything but a square box. It seemed too big for the space, but the design was fine. JET

[Empire]

Empire, were we at the same meeting? The tall building was anything but a square box. It seemed too big for the space, but the design was fine. JET

We were at the same meeting. The towers didn't stand out like King's Wharf which is what was being suggested.

[Dmajackson]

I resolve this dispute with my magical research abilities ;)

Case 15781 Details (http://www.halifax.ca/planning/Case15781Details.html)

[ZET]

I resolve this dispute with my magical research abilities ;)

Case 15781 Details (http://www.halifax.ca/planning/Case15781Details.html)

OOOOHH... magic !

Looking at the site plan I continue to think that the Ochterloney st building takes up too much of the lot, it will squeeze out the beech trees.
The tower does not match up to the kings wharf tower, but still not a bad design. But it's too big for that area, given what it will dwarf. ZET

[Jonovision]

And to match Bedford Djs magic research skills I will use my magic copy and pasting skills! :P

Site Plan

http://inlinethumb02.webshots.com/43265/2972720660096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2972720660096709958pSiPLo)

The Wellington on Ochterloney

http://inlinethumb39.webshots.com/44390/2719890460096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2719890460096709958NwJDnB)

http://inlinethumb14.webshots.com/43405/2026743480096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2026743480096709958QyGEXG)

http://inlinethumb39.webshots.com/45670/2580897020096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2580897020096709958OerQOG)

Floor Plan for the top floors of The Grand

http://inlinethumb36.webshots.com/46627/2092396510096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2092396510096709958WsRupR)

[dartmouthian]

the ochterloney building looks awful and I hope it never gets built. the other one looks very good, though the height is a bit much.

[FuzzyWuz]

Before it became clear that it would be a park I was imagining the starr site would look great with a hydrostone market type development. I imagined it running along the newly opened up section of canal with the public able to walk its length as they window shopped. Three to five stories with commercial on the ground floor and condos or apartments above.

[Jonovision]

That is actually a really cool idea. I don't know if the residents would ever go for it. But I think it would be awesome!

[someone123]

The highrise looks very generic - I wouldn't be surprised if the design changed a lot, just like King's Wharf. Even if this is the final product, however, I don't think it would be bad because there is nothing else like this in Dartmouth. It is good to have distinctive buildings but not every building needs to be distinctive.

The tower will also look kind of hilarious next to the dumpy suburban development next door.

The Ochterloney building looks distorted and nightmarish.

I wonder what the effect of cutting off traffic between Pine St and Prince Albert Road would be? Usually that kind of thing is bad (and unnecessary) but I don't know much about traffic patterns in downtown Dartmouth.

How far along is this development? Is it something that would start up soon if approved?

[terrynorthend]

Before it became clear that it would be a park I was imagining the starr site would look great with a hydrostone market type development. I imagined it running along the newly opened up section of canal with the public able to walk its length as they window shopped. Three to five stories with commercial on the ground floor and condos or apartments above.

Great minds! I had thought exactly the same thing way back before they built that awful "barn" of apartments behind Greenvale. Something like the Manchester docklands or the canals of Amsterdam.

[JET]

The highrise looks very generic - I wouldn't be surprised if the design changed a lot, just like King's Wharf. Even if this is the final product, however, I don't think it would be bad because there is nothing else like this in Dartmouth. It is good to have distinctive buildings but not every building needs to be distinctive.

The tower will also look kind of hilarious next to the dumpy suburban development next door.

The Ochterloney building looks distorted and nightmarish.

I wonder what the effect of cutting off traffic between Pine St and Prince Albert Road would be? Usually that kind of thing is bad (and unnecessary) but I don't know much about traffic patterns in downtown Dartmouth.
How far along is this development? Is it something that would start up soon if approved?

It would cut off a short-cut for traffic, but would not make really much of a difference for most traffic. There are lots of one-ways in that area, which makes getting around interesting. Most traffic would now go from Prince Albert to Victoria, or Victoria to Maple, and avoid pine st; not a bad thing.
The height for this proposal is the main issue; there are limits to height for that area. Anything next to the greenvale should not hover over it.
Greenvale is looking good with most of the landscaping almost finished.
The footprint for the Ochterloney building is far too large.

[Jonovision]

As far as I know this is still in the amendment stage. Trying to get that opportunity site into the downtown plan to allow this to happen.

[fenwick16]

As far as I know this is still in the amendment stage. Trying to get that opportunity site into the downtown plan to allow this to happen.

Wouldn't this be in the viewplanes? These viewplanes bylaws really peeve me. Some ex-Dartmouthian Mayor doesn't like tall buildings so viewplanes are added. (after all, why would anyone want tall buildings in downtown Dartmouth - don't they belong in the suburbs, LOL)

[halifaxboyns]

Wouldn't this be in the viewplanes? These viewplanes bylaws really peeve me. Some ex-Dartmouthian Mayor doesn't like tall buildings so viewplanes are added. (after all, why would anyone want tall buildings in downtown Dartmouth - don't they belong in the suburbs, LOL)

Actually it falls just outside the viewplanes. If my recollection of the site is correct, I've put it in bright red. Please, if I'm wrong let me know - but I'm pretty sure it's the one I've noted. If not, I believe it's the one to the right - either way; it falls just outside the viewplane which is why they can propose such height.

Now if the viewplane from Brightwood Golf Course (noted in the HRM GIS as the Dartmouth George's Island Viewplane) was removed; a lot of downtown Dartmouth would open up (as I've been championing since I began posting).

Sorry if I seem a bit fussy; City council with Calgary just finished and it's almost 10pm. Fun!
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4070/4680572837_a7e125fb4d_b.jpg

[JET]

Actually it falls just outside the viewplanes. If my recollection of the site is correct, I've put it in bright red. Please, if I'm wrong let me know - but I'm pretty sure it's the one I've noted. If not, I believe it's the one to the right - either way; it falls just outside the viewplane which is why they can propose such height.

Now if the viewplane from Brightwood Golf Course (noted in the HRM GIS as the Dartmouth George's Island Viewplane) was removed; a lot of downtown Dartmouth would open up (as I've been championing since I began posting).

Sorry if I seem a bit fussy; City council with Calgary just finished and it's almost 10pm. Fun!
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4070/4680572837_a7e125fb4d_b.jpg

It would be to the right of the area in red. The top of the building, from what I've heard would be level with Brightwood. Although it is currently a golfcourse there was some discussion about the city obtaining the land and making it parkland; a great idea IMHO.
The height issue is that the downtown MPS limits height to 7 or 9 stories (i'm guessing). I think that this is too massive for that spot, but something smaller will get approved. JET

[halifaxboyns]

It would be to the right of the area in red. The top of the building, from what I've heard would be level with Brightwood. Although it is currently a golfcourse there was some discussion about the city obtaining the land and making it parkland; a great idea IMHO.
The height issue is that the downtown MPS limits height to 7 or 9 stories (i'm guessing). I think that this is too massive for that spot, but something smaller will get approved. JET

Well I was close :)

[Dmajackson]

So the ammendments to the DD MPS are moving along. First reading's later this week and if they ammendments get approved a DA process would be started for the buildings themselves. Right now the plans are the same however if the developer has to do the DA process a general height of 15 floors is considered appropriate for DD (podium tower style).

Case 15784 (http://www.halifax.ca/commcoun/hecc/documents/Case15781.pdf)

The thread title should be this BTW,

[Dartmouth] Irishtown Road | ?m | 7, 14, 23 floors | Proposed

[fenwick16]

So the ammendments to the DD MPS are moving along. First reading's later this week and if they ammendments get approved a DA process would be started for the buildings themselves. Right now the plans are the same however if the developer has to do the DA process a general height of 15 floors is considered appropriate for DD (podium tower style).

Case 15784 (http://www.halifax.ca/commcoun/hecc/documents/Case15781.pdf)

The thread title should be this BTW,

[Dartmouth] Irishtown Road | ?m | 7, 14, 23 floors | Proposed

Good find Dmajackson. Based on my understanding of the document, staff is recommending 7, 14 and 19 storeys (instead of 23 storeys) - case 15784. There were quite a few residents and other public meeting regulars who spoke out against it - they seemed to be in the majority. So it will be interesting to see if this gets approved.

[halifaxboyns]

Good find Dmajackson. Based on my understanding of the document, staff is recommending 7, 14 and 19 storeys (instead of 23 storeys) - case 15784. There were quite a few residents and other public meeting regulars who spoke out against it - they seemed to be in the majority. So it will be interesting to see if this gets approved.

Well considering the existing context - this seems to me to be a reasonable solution to densify the area while not freaking too many people out. I know that King's Wharf was a challenge and the planner writing the report hit the important points about design: good design can mitigate a lot of the issues regarding shadow and wind.

I think the main goal of the images was to have a concept from which to see and then base the discussion on to progress the MPS changes. There was one guy in the minute who just didn't give the planner a break at all though - man; I can only imagine the joy of the meeting.

I lived in Halifax a long time and I have to say I don't understand the desire to keep downtown Dartmouth with a small town feel; but I think if you focus density in specific areas; then you can still get the people the MPS desires while maintaining that feel.

[Dmajackson]

If there's anywhere that should be densified in the urban core its downtown Dartmouth. The ferry, King's Wharf water taxi (planned for later phases), and good buses connections make that area very desirable if some investment is made.

And well in the case of public meetings some lunatic (or pack of lunatics) always hijack the meeting and make stating another opinion impossible. In Halifax its the Heritage Trust, in Dartmouth is either them or a neighbour, and in Bedford its a hippie that thinks sprawling into Hammonds Plains is more sustainable than infilling.

[Jonovision]

Glad to hear this one is moving forward. I was thinking today it had been a while since we heard anything. I like staffs recommendations, but I think they might end up being even a few floors smaller. I believe only 1 or 2 people spoke in favour at the meeting.

[worldlyhaligonian]

I feel as though they should hold two meetings... one for all of the people against and one for the people that are for a development, that way it would be more fair in terms of what is expressed.

Typically anti-development folks make blanket "normative" statements... This is really unfair because although no real points are made, the anti-development folks appear to represent the majority.

[JET]

I feel as though they should hold two meetings... one for all of the people against and one for the people that are for a development, that way it would be more fair in terms of what is expressed.

Typically anti-development folks make blanket "normative" statements... This is really unfair because although no real points are made, the anti-development folks appear to represent the majority.

Wordly, I have to say that your comment seems to be a blanket 'normative' statement, and a generalization. It could also be argued, incorrectly, that pro-developmnet folks do the same thing: "if it's big, it's good'.
The folks at the meeting, mostly, had legitimate concerns, which were well articulated. Few were anti-development, but they were concerned about waht is proposed for our neighborhood. Some of what is proposed for the site is not suitable for that site. The building on Ochterloney will dwarf the greenvale, and takes up the whole frontage on that street. The tower will also do the same on the other side. The greenvale is lovely. Anything that is added there needs to be considerate of what is now there. I would like to see a 3d of how the developmnet will fit. The renderings were only of the buildings, not of the stretscape/neighborhood. JET

[Dmajackson]

HAC and HECC are considering the MPS ammendments at their next meetings. Regardless of thie recommentdation if Regional Council approves it the plan will move into Development Agreement stage.

[JET]

HAC and HECC are considering the MPS ammendments at their next meetings. Regardless of thie recommentdation if Regional Council approves it the plan will move into Development Agreement stage.

Are there new renderings?

[Jonovision]

I imagine there will be once a formal proposal is given to the city.

[fenwick16]

The allnovascotia.com is reporting that this project could possibly begin sometime next year. The tallest tower has been slightly reduced in height to 18 storeys instead of 24, while the other two remain unchanged at 14 and 7 storeys. It would contain 300 units in all 3 towers.

The allnovascotia states that the project (which is now being referred to as Seagate Residences) received approval from the city hall Heritage Advisory Committee. The next step would be a public hearing at HRM council in December.

[eastcoastal]

The allnovascotia.com is reporting that this project could possibly begin sometime next year. The tallest tower has been slightly reduced in height to 18 storeys instead of 24, while the other two remain unchanged at 14 and 7 storeys. It would contain 300 units in all 3 towers.

The allnovascotia states that the project (which is now being referred to as Seagate Residences) received approval from the city hall Heritage Advisory Committee. The next step would be a public hearing at HRM council in December.

A small clarification that means a fair amount of difference.... The PROJECT was not APPROVED. The Heritage Advisory Committee RECOMMENDED AMENDMENTS to the MPS. Essentially this means that they are recommending to council that the rules for this particular site (now, hopefully identified as an opportunity site in the Regional Plan) be changed to provide maximum heights for particular parcels and require some specific Heritage and Urban Design strategies. The developer would have to prepare a submission based on those new rules if Council decides to take the recommendations of its committees.

The way I understand it, the developer submitted a concept to staff and asked for some changes to the MPS to allow extra height. Staff felt what was proposed didn't offer enough in terms of urban design and heritage protection and felt that the highest tower was not appropriate. They drafted some proposed amendments to the MPS to set rules for what they think is appropriate (and take some guesswork out of the process for the developer). That is what is being discussed at council and with committees.

[fenwick16]

Thanks for the clarification. No it is not approved, that is why it has to go to the HRM regional council in December. Actually, the allnovascotia.com story said that it received thumbs up from the Heritage Advisory Committee.

The tallest tower has been reduced by 6 storeys to 18 storeys.

[JET]

Thanks for the clarification. No it is not approved, that is why it has to go to the HRM regional council in December. Actually, the allnovascotia.com story said that it received thumbs up from the Heritage Advisory Committee.

The tallest tower has been reduced by 6 storeys to 18 storeys.

18 stories for that site seems OK, but I don't like the footprint of the ochterloney building. There need to be some renderings that show how the new buildings will affect greenvale.

[eastcoastal]

18 stories for that site seems OK, but I don't like the footprint of the ochterloney building. There need to be some renderings that show how the new buildings will affect greenvale.

The renderings were done BEFORE the proposed changes to the MPS were drafted - they don't take the proposed rules into account. We'd be likely to see something (hopefully significantly) different if the changes to the MPS are approved as recommended

[JET]

The renderings were done BEFORE the proposed changes to the MPS were drafted - they don't take the proposed rules into account. We'd be likely to see something (hopefully significantly) different if the changes to the MPS are approved as recommended

Do you know what are the proposed changes? When I read them, it all seemed a bit vague, bit short on specifics. Maybe I missed something.

[eastcoastal]

Do you know what are the proposed changes? When I read them, it all seemed a bit vague, bit short on specifics. Maybe I missed something.

As I understand it, the site (4 parcels) is currently developable as-right. When opportunity sites (which allow for higher densities and require Development Agreements) were identified in the regional plan, this wasn't forseen as one.

In the staff report, Attachment A (identified as Page 13) outlines changes to the MPS, and Attachment B to the Land Use Bylaws (essentially the maps identifying it as an "opportunity site").

[Dmajackson]

Public hearing held tonight and it was a lengthy one. Standard concerns of shadow, height and development quality were raised but as one of the councillors said these will be addressed in the Development Agreement. Most people were happy to see more developments for DD.

In the end I think it was unanimous that the MPS/LUB ammendments were approved so I imagine early in the new year detailed plans will be submitted to HRM for the project.

[halifaxboyns]

Good - it's high time we get some good population density going on in Dartmouth! This is a good start; now lets get the development agreement done.

[fenwick16]

I detect a bit of a change occurring in the Halifax area. The councillors seem to be more unified in their support of major developments. This one and the Nova Centre are two recent ones that come to mind.

[halifaxboyns]

I detect a bit of a change occurring in the Halifax area. The councillors seem to be more unified in their support of major developments. This one and the Nova Centre are two recent ones that come to mind.

Well it's like I said in the STV facebook - when you put forward the same old song from the HT on everything, it pushes them into a group where they aren't always taken seriously. The same with people like BD and his crowd.

Plus considering the city has passed 400,000 - perhaps people are looking at it in a different way?

[someone123]

I think the city is "waking up" a little when it comes to these issues. I'm not certain that they are doing everything in the best way but there is more of a focus on improving the core parts of the city, whereas 20 years ago the focus was on trying to promote sprawl because it was seen as a money generator (turns out it was only short-term gain at the cost of long-term messes like Bayers Lake). Nobody can deny for example that the Nova Centre and library are investments in the downtown and nothing like this happened for 20 years.

I am not sure how true it is but I would also like to think that public debate has shifted a little to the point where people are more accepting of change. This can happen very insidiously without anybody noticing -- we hear about STV and the Nova Centre but the obstructionists quietly ignore other projects because the public does not see them as controversial. I think we have made some progress since many of the infill projects now are seen as routine where they would not have been 10 years ago.

It's good news because I don't think we can have a very successful downtown when every developer is fighting a five year legal battle to be allowed to build. The only bad news is I think that downtown Halifax really lost out during the economically successful 2000-2010 period.

[resetcbu1]

And to match Bedford Djs magic research skills I will use my magic copy and pasting skills! :P

Site Plan

http://inlinethumb02.webshots.com/43265/2972720660096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2972720660096709958pSiPLo)

The Wellington on Ochterloney

http://inlinethumb39.webshots.com/44390/2719890460096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2719890460096709958NwJDnB)

http://inlinethumb14.webshots.com/43405/2026743480096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2026743480096709958QyGEXG)

http://inlinethumb39.webshots.com/45670/2580897020096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2580897020096709958OerQOG)

Floor Plan for the top floors of The Grand

http://inlinethumb36.webshots.com/46627/2092396510096709958S600x600Q85.jpg (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2092396510096709958WsRupR)

are those full sized trees on roof top gardend on the tower? if so that is cool don't see much of that in halifax atleast not since I moved away , are there any other like it?

[Empire]

are those full sized trees on roof top gardend on the tower? if so that is cool don't see much of that in halifax atleast not since I moved away , are there any other like it?

Don't rely on anything in this rendering as being accurate. The green space is there as a smoke screen and the appearance of the building is very much suspect. This is one development where the DA needs to be tightened up and the cards laid on the table. Show us exactly what you intend to build and if you deviate from that there will be very little wiggle room in the DA. In other words if you don't build exactly what you say you will build then you won't receive an occupancy permit.....period!

[Jonovision]

I've been thinking a lot about this development lately. I wonder if there is any news to come soon? I'm very much looking forward to seeing some more detailed renderings for these buildings. They have the possibility of being great, but they could also be a huge blunder. I haven't looked at these plans in a while and I walk by the site all the time, so I have started to think more about the design and how it can really work for the site if done properly.

[wackypacky]

Can anyone provide an update on the status of this proposal

[halifaxboyns]

The case information on HRM's website seems to have been removed.

[Jringe01]

Anything new happening on this one?

[hoser111]

http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/106781-lower-complex-now-planned-for-dartmouth-luxury-site

Public invited to session on project

Developer Darrell Dixon has reduced the height of the tallest building of a three-building residential project proposed for downtown Dartmouth. The initial plan called for it to be 22 storeys, but now it’s drawn up as an 18-storey building.
The public will get a chance to view a different multimillion-dollar residential development proposed for downtown Dartmouth than what was tabled more than two years ago.

Originally, developer Darrell Dixon had proposed a three-building, $60-million, mixed-use residential development on four parcels of land located on Irishtown Road, Queen Street and Ochterloney Street.

The plans for the Seagate Residences called for 300 units in a seven-storey building on Ochterloney Street beside the former Greenvale School, which Dexel Developments has turned into a complex of 36 loft-style apartments, a 14-storey tower on the corner of Queen Street and Irishtown Road (formerly the Pine Street extension) and a 22-storey building on a vacant lot behind the former school.

........

[Jstaleness]

22 to 18 isn't a huge loss. It will still be huge for that area. Another big gain for Downtown Dartmouth. Hopefully it actually starts next spring.

[someone123]

18 vs. 22 storeys doesn't really matter but I'm not a fan of the design of this development. A point tower type of design would be better than the big blocky towers, but then again they're trying to fit 300 units into 18 storeys now...

I'd like this to start in the spring too but I don't think I'm not sure I've ever seen an HRM development agreement awarded in time for a developer's optimistic predicted start date. Invariably there's some problem or delay and things get pushed back. If they're unlucky they end up with Jono or Jazz type delays. It really is too bad.

[fenwick16]

Here is the Google Maps link - http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=queen+street,+dartmouth,+ns&ll=44.668474,-63.56432&spn=0.003212,0.008256&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&hnear=Queen+St,+Dartmouth,+Nova+Scotia&gl=ca&t=h&z=18

From the halifax.ca website:
Site Plan - http://www.halifax.ca/planning/documents/17849SitePlan.pdf
new Renderings - http://www.halifax.ca/planning/documents/17849Perspectives.pdf

If the Dartmouth Cove plan and Seagate Residences all get built along with King's Wharf then Dartmouth will have quite a skyline. It makes me wonder why these projects aren't happening on the Halifax side.

[someone123]

It makes me wonder why these projects aren't happening on the Halifax side.

There's not a whole lot of underdeveloped land like this on the Halifax side, and most of it's either publicly owned and/or under viewplanes and other development restrictions. Other sites for the most part already have active proposals.

I'd say the North End around Young Street is more like downtown Dartmouth and we have seen some larger scale developments (Gladstone Ridge) and proposals there.

[JET]

my concern with this has been how tight it is to Greenvale. The buildings are right up to the property lines. The Wallace seems much too wide for that very narrow space. There are historic beech trees that would be affected. Be interesting to see what staff say about this. Also interesting that the google view shows the renovated Greenvale, but the street view shows it pre-renovation.

[Northend Guy]

my concern with this has been how tight it is to Greenvale. The buildings are right up to the property lines. The Wallace seems much too wide for that very narrow space. There are historic beech trees that would be affected. Be interesting to see what staff say about this. Also interesting that the google view shows the renovated Greenvale, but the street view shows it pre-renovation.

I am with you on that. I have to say, I am a big fan of what was done with Greenvale. This development sure does encroach on it, and really overpowers it. I am all for development, and certainly I like the scale of it from a density point of view, but I am concerned that it the way it looks on the renderings, it's almost like a big goon breathing down the neck of some poor school kid. It sort of detaches Greenvale from the block. If there was a bit more setback from Greenvale, and the proposed Buildings were either not attached, or at least the scale of the 'connector' were a bit shorter, I would feel a lot better about this.

[halifaxboyns]

I don't know if I agree with Jet on this proposal over powering the school - I don't get that impression, but that's just me. The reduction in height is not a big deal but it does speak volumes to the fact that this area is seeing remarkable interest by developers. That just goes to show the remarkable interest in this area, which has occured in just a short period of time.

But I do have to agree with Someone123, most of the 'easy' plots of land on the peninsula are quickly disappearing and being developed. We're now going to start getting into the more difficult (if you can call it that) type proposals where someone might take 5 years to assemble all the land to undertake an application. That's likely occuring right now along Agricola or Quinpool in anticipation of the Regional Centre Plan.

[JET]

I don't know if I agree with Jet on this proposal over powering the school - I don't get that impression, but that's just me. The reduction in height is not a big deal but it does speak volumes to the fact that this area is seeing remarkable interest by developers. That just goes to show the remarkable interest in this area, which has occured in just a short period of time.

But I do have to agree with Someone123, most of the 'easy' plots of land on the peninsula are quickly disappearing and being developed. We're now going to start getting into the more difficult (if you can call it that) type proposals where someone might take 5 years to assemble all the land to undertake an application. That's likely occuring right now along Agricola or Quinpool in anticipation of the Regional Centre Plan.

my point of view is based on living 1/2 block from there for 20 years. I don't mind if there is a 22 story narrow building; but I have often stood on Ochterloney st and looked at the site, and I worry about what might be proposed for there. My hope is that since development staff had in the 2010 report pointed out the historical significance of Greenvale, they will be kind in their recommendations about the footprint of nearby buildings. .

[pchipman]

Any idea if the daylighting of the canal is still going to happen? Saw some plans in the preliminary renderings, but the new ones seem to lack it. Would be a shame to lose that part of the proposal.

[JET]

Any idea if the daylighting of the canal is still going to happen? Saw some plans in the preliminary renderings, but the new ones seem to lack it. Would be a shame to lose that part of the proposal.

I'm hoping that there will be more detail on that at the public meeting. Some 3d models would also be helpful.

[someone123]

That just goes to show the remarkable interest in this area, which has occured in just a short period of time.

It is kind of insane. On that same block there's a 4 storey "Clayton Park Special" apartment building or condo built only a few years ago. It was a real disappointment for such an interesting site, but now it's being followed up by a development that's probably got four or five times as many units. The North End has similarly changed dramatically -- nothing happened there for years and now it's hot. I think it's great.

Does the developer of this site own the canal itself, or would the daylighting be a public component? It seems totally reasonable to include daylighting as part of a project of this scale.

The canal is one of Dartmouth's most interesting and historic features and right now it's mostly wasted. The park along Prince Albert Road is a dud too. It should be so much more than a field with a path on it.

[Waye Mason]

It is kind of insane. On that same block there's a 4 storey "Clayton Park Special" apartment building or condo built only a few years ago. It was a real disappointment for such an interesting site, but now it's being followed up by a development that's probably got four or five times as many units. The North End has similarly changed dramatically -- nothing happened there for years and now it's hot. I think it's great.

The whole area from north of the MacDonald, across to NSCC woodside, and inland up to Banook and the Hawthorn school area, I think this is about to explode, it is the most exciting area right now.

Does the developer of this site own the canal itself, or would the daylighting be a public component? It seems totally reasonable to include daylighting as part of a project of this scale.

HRM owns the Starr property needed for the canal site - see below. I strongly support investing in this project from Dartmouth Cove to Sullivan's Pond.

The canal is one of Dartmouth's most interesting and historic features and right now it's mostly wasted. The park along Prince Albert Road is a dud too. It should be so much more than a field with a path on it.

There is a plan but it keeps not being funded. All up it might be $20 million over 5-7 years, but a high end quality job tying the waterfront to the lake and canal system will really be the icing on the cake of the renewal of Dartmouth Centre. http://www.halifax.ca/RealPropertyPlanning/CG/documents/CanalGreenwayReportJune2006.PDF

Blue belongs to HRM:

http://halifaxpolitics.ca/2012/shubiepark.jpg

[someone123]

There is a plan but it keeps not being funded. All up it might be $20 million over 5-7 years, but a high end quality job tying the waterfront to the lake and canal system will really be the icing on the cake of the renewal of Dartmouth Centre.

Maybe the key is to add in a subterranean complex of half a dozen or so ice rinks. We could even name them after Gloria McCluskey.

In any case, if the canal is system is restored to a high level of quality you can imagine this area becoming an attraction of regional importance for locals and tourists. It's a great piece of history and complements the existing ferry service, existing downtown businesses, and all the new stuff that will come in as a result of these other developments. Downtown Dartmouth used to be pretty crappy but I can imagine people taking a day to walk along the canal, do some shopping, and go out to a restaurant if the places exist. I can also imagine lots of people who work downtown living there and commuting on the ferry.

From the point of view of HRM's bottom line, putting a lot of development in downtown Dartmouth is also a great deal. It's a bit more affordable so people can probably get about the same amount of space as they could out in Bedford West but the infrastructure is mostly already there. The savings over a 30 year period of putting 5,000 people in downtown Dartmouth vs. a new suburban area must be huge. Just think of how much money has been sunk into Clayton Park West and environs (Washmill, Mainland Common/Canada Games Centre...), which has maybe 40,000 people.

[halifaxboyns]

Recent discussion on CBC (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2012/06/25/ns-dartmouth-development-mtg.html) about this site. Looks like there is another public meeting occuring tonight - so show up!

[someone123]

The CBC must have a template for these "I am pro development, but not by my house" articles. All you'd have to do is change the development name and make up a new resident. You could photoshop angry people into google streetview images for the little pictures.

[Keith P.]

One can only hope Glorious McCroskey doesn't try her famous short-circuit tactics that she has successfully used in the past to torpedo this development without going to a proper public hearing.

[halifaxboyns]

The CBC live blog has a few photos, but I have to agree. They seem to have the typical cookie cutter article. That said, the anti-nimby postings (which I've added a few and quite happy to do so) seem to be quite out numbering the typically NIMBY arguments, which is good.

Considering the photos in the CBC thread, I think there might be a good showing of people in support of the application.

[halifaxboyns]

Wow, judging by the photos on the CBC blog the proposal design has changed...

[Keith P.]

Wow, judging by the photos on the CBC blog the proposal design has changed...

Yes, and not for the better IMO. It appears very hulking, no point towers here, just a bunch of large boxes right to the property lines. I do not like it.

[halifaxboyns]

Yes, and not for the better IMO. It appears very hulking, no point towers here, just a bunch of large boxes right to the property lines. I do not like it.

I couldn't see it very well on my computer - so I'd like to see a better image. Hopefully the HRM website will have something soon.

[spaustin]

I went this evening and it was an interesting room (quite a mix of people). I spoke in favour, with the provision that the design needs some tweaks. The current design has become very bulky. The Wentworth is not so much behind Greenvale School as it is overtop of it. A big long rectangle that should be slimmer so that you can actually see around it. It baffles me too that they want to use the exact same materials on the shorter Fairbanks building on the other side of Irishtown. It's like they get a bulk discount or something. Rather than have twins, they should do something different with the Fairbanks to make it interesting. At street level, the Fairbanks is a bit of a mess because it actually has a lot of frontage, but like too many modern building it's one long uniform slab of regularly spaced identical windows and doors. For a location like this, a Founders Corner or Vic like approach should be taken where, at street level, the building is made to feel like several buildings because the facade, materials, windows and doors are varied. A more interesting streetscape would reflect the scale of the surrounding buildings and its Downtown setting.

[halifaxboyns]

I can't see it very well from the pictures on the CBC blog - but if it is one big block, then I'd definitely agree. Point towers in this case would be more appropriate with the bulk of the massing at close to grade and then a good separation between buildings.

[fenwick16]

I can't see it very well from the pictures on the CBC blog - but if it is one big block, then I'd definitely agree. Point towers in this case would be more appropriate with the bulk of the massing at close to grade and then a good separation between buildings.

Have the renderings changed since these were posted - http://www.halifax.ca/planning/documents/17849Perspectives.pdf? Here is a link to the halifax.ca details page - http://www.halifax.ca/planning/Case17849Details.html

[Waye Mason]

Have the renderings changed since these were posted - http://www.halifax.ca/planning/documents/17849Perspectives.pdf? Here is a link to the halifax.ca details page - http://www.halifax.ca/planning/Case17849Details.html

Wow, the tower really is out of place, and dwarfs Greenvale. I like the other two buildings no problem, that just doesn't look right. I wonder what kind of wind and other impacts that will have to the Shubie/Starr greenway space.

Twitter is saying most people at the meeting were in favor of development but were worried about that tower and how it is sited. This is the same community (and some of the same speakers) that were pro Dartmouth Cove and pro Kings Wharf, so it is interesting to see this resistance, it is not simple knee jerk NIMBY.

Interesting question from the Herald why "only be three three-bedroom units among the buildings."

[JET]

I went this evening and it was an interesting room (quite a mix of people). I spoke in favour, with the provision that the design needs some tweaks. The current design has become very bulky. The Wentworth is not so much behind Greenvale School as it is overtop of it. A big long rectangle that should be slimmer so that you can actually see around it. It baffles me too that they want to use the exact same materials on the shorter Fairbanks building on the other side of Irishtown. It's like they get a bulk discount or something. Rather than have twins, they should do something different with the Fairbanks to make it interesting. At street level, the Fairbanks is a bit of a mess because it actually has a lot of frontage, but like too many modern building it's one long uniform slab of regularly spaced identical windows and doors. For a location like this, a Founders Corner or Vic like approach should be taken where, at street level, the building is made to feel like several buildings because the facade, materials, windows and doors are varied. A more interesting streetscape would reflect the scale of the surrounding buildings and its Downtown setting.

Spaustin, your thoughts are bang-on. they need to make changes, not fill the complete footprint, and give Greenvale some breathing space. Interesting that most of the people who attended the meeting were against the development, and most of the on-line comments on various sites are pro the development.

[eastcoastal]

Have the renderings changed since these were posted - http://www.halifax.ca/planning/documents/17849Perspectives.pdf? Here is a link to the halifax.ca details page - http://www.halifax.ca/planning/Case17849Details.html

I have to say that there is nothing very inspiring about those perspective photos. Perhaps the materials would be better in person, but the form looks pretty bizarre where it addresses (or doesn't address) the Greenvale School. They should be required to go taller and thin the towers out.

[FuzzyWuz]

It seems to me that the step back in cases like this should be relative to Greenvale-like neighbours rather than to the street. There's a bigger impact on the nearby buildings and if that was addressed maybe the reaction would be different.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Interesting that most of the people who attended the meeting were against the development, and most of the on-line comments on various sites are pro the development.

That's actually common. Most of the people who are pro-development have jobs and are too busy working and with their personal life to attend these events.

The anti-development crowd: too much time on their hands, stalling everybody's growth and prosperity. Assholes.

[JET]

That's actually common. Most of the people who are pro-development have jobs and are too busy working and with their personal life to attend these events.

The anti-development crowd: too much time on their hands, stalling everybody's growth and prosperity. Assholes.

Ya think? probably more likely that the folks who went to the meeting work at a job and then decide to get out to a community meeting, whereas the others were too lazy to get off their asses and leave their computer screens. Just sayin'

[Waye Mason]

That's actually common. Most of the people who are pro-development have jobs and are too busy working and with their personal life to attend these events.

The anti-development crowd: too much time on their hands, stalling everybody's growth and prosperity. Assholes.

Man, I think you are reading this dead wrong. Being anti-one development does not make you anti-all development.

Dartmouth has been far more receptive of development, within 300 meters even, of that site. But people have concerns about this proposal, concerns many of us on this message board share. Your generalization is just as bad as the anti-everything crowds generalization of developers and those that support them. Not productive.

[someone123]

Dartmouth has been far more receptive of development, within 300 meters even, of that site. But people have concerns about this proposal, concerns many of us on this message board share.

I don't like the massing and scale of this proposal or the materials. I think they can do a lot better. It's got nothing to do with height though, and actually the height gives the developer the flexibility to have better massing given a certain number of units.

I wasn't at the public meeting so I don't know what the tone was like, but often the terms of debate are wrong. Sometimes members of the public and even councillors (e.g. Gloria McCluskey) treat the meetings as "yea or nay" popularity contests rather than a dialogue on what aspects of the development can be improved. I think this accounts for a huge amount of the friction that exists and it may even result in lower quality development, since a short-circuited process often results in developers running to the NSUARB and then building what they wanted.