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SpongeG
Apr 29, 2010, 4:44 PM
Retailers, condos perfect bedfellows

Living above the store has lost its stigma

Garry Marr, Financial Post

http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/toronto/2958955.bin?size=404x272
Tyler Anderson, National Post
The Manulife Centre, on Bloor Street in Toronto, was built in 1972, making it one of the first mixed-use developments.

My parents will probably be shocked to hear this, but living above a store is becoming trendy in many Canadian cities.

The concept has changed from the day when immigrants ran the variety store below and lived in the apartment upstairs so that they could be close by for the endless hours they worked to get ahead financially.

Today, mixed-used developments feature grandiose big-box retail space at ground level and $500-a-square foot condominiums rising 65 storeys above.

"This all started in the 1970s with some mega projects in the larger markets -- Toronto, Montreal," says Alex Manefski, an associate director with Altus Group who has put together a report on the trend. The Manulife Centre on Bloor Street in Toronto, along what is now known as "Mink Mile," was one of the first mixed-use developments, built in 1972. Today it still boasts residential living atop the boutiques on its lower levels.

Mr. Manefski's report shows the concept has taken on new life during this housing cycle, with major retailers acting as anchors in condominium and rental property developments in Toronto, Vancouver and Calgary. For the retailers, the concept gives them access to growing populations in downtown cores created by condominiums.

"They want to gain a foothold in the downtown markets," Mr. Manefski explains. Many of the country's major retailers, such as Canadian Tire Corp., are willing to alter their traditional floor plans to fit downtown spaces.

"There's a convenience to it for consumers because they don't have to hop in their car and drive into the suburbs or another location that is not right downtown," Mr. Manefski says.

There would be a certain advantage to having a 50,000-square-foot grocery store an elevator ride away. You can buy everything fresh whenever you need it--24 hours a day.

But what about all that traffic milling about on the ground floor of your home? "People who move downtown are not too concerned with having a lot of people around," Mr. Manefski says.

For retailers, planning restrictions and a lack of land in the downtown core have forced them to reconsider their tried-and-true floor plates and store designs. "The potential for standalone, larger-format retail developments in dense central areas of the country's largest urban areas is generally not feasible due to the high cost of land and simple unavailability of large development sites," Mr. Manefski's report says

Edward Sonshine, chief executive of RioCan Real Estate Investment, which has been part of two mixed-use residential developments with ground-floor retail, says the concept is probably here to stay. "You are getting [retail] tenants that would typically be in the suburbs," Mr. Sonshine says.

RioCan, the largest REIT in the country, is currently part of a mixed-use condominium development in Toronto's west end that has three floors of retail and almost 100,000 square feet of residential space. RioCan is keeping the retail space while its partners sell off the residential space.

"Land is just way too expensive for traditional stores. If you want to serve those people [downtown], this is the only way to find space. From the developer's point of view, the value of retail space is higher than residential space, perhaps double," says Mr. Sonshine, adding that the retail space is usually on lower floors where nobody wants to live.

"I think you will continue to see more of this. You'll see this in all the major cities in Canada," Mr. Sonshine says.

...

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/toronto/story.html?id=2958954

Coldrsx
Apr 29, 2010, 4:47 PM
rocket science

duper
Apr 29, 2010, 4:57 PM
The concept has changed from the day when immigrants ran the variety store below and lived in the apartment upstairs so that they could be close by for the endless hours they worked to get ahead financially.


Fatal flaw in the article. As if a family living above a corner store is in any way equivalent to having retail at the foot of a 65-storey condo tower...

SpongeG
Apr 29, 2010, 5:07 PM
no but it was a stigma in canada to do so and its writing writers paint pictures with words

Yume-sama
Apr 29, 2010, 5:27 PM
I love living... 20 or so floors... above the store :P I live above an IGA MarketPlace, and don't even have to go outside to go grocery shopping.

And I can steal the cart and bring it to my apartment :D Not sure if I'm supposed to. But I *can* which is important.

O-Town Hockey
Apr 29, 2010, 6:21 PM
I live 16 floors above a big Shoppers Drug Mart and wouldn't have it any other way. They carry almost anything I could ever need in a pinch....though prices are a little higher than at a grocery store. Now if only they would start selling booze!

vid
Apr 29, 2010, 6:23 PM
Funny, the developers of a condo here got the city to waive the requirement that they have storefront retail so that they could "sell the units without as many issues"...

Yume-sama
Apr 29, 2010, 6:39 PM
I live 16 floors above a big Shoppers Drug Mart and wouldn't have it any other way. They carry almost anything I could ever need in a pinch....though prices are a little higher than at a grocery store. Now if only they would start selling booze!

I really like how Shoppers has changed their "image" in the past couple of years. Their stores are actually nice, now.

:yes: And with Shopper Drug Mart reproducing like rabbits (at least in the West) you are almost never farther than 2 minutes from one.

Now all they need to do is start putting Starbucks inside Shoppers. :rolleyes:

WhipperSnapper
Apr 29, 2010, 6:47 PM
Funny, the developers of a condo here got the city to waive the requirement that they have storefront retail so that they could "sell the units without as many issues"...

The last thing most res developers want is to build retail

vid
Apr 29, 2010, 6:48 PM
^ I see. Doesn't help that this development is the centrepiece of what we hope will revive our downtown core...

I really like how Shoppers has changed their "image" in the past couple of years. Their stores are actually nice, now.

:yes: And with Shopper Drug Mart reproducing like rabbits (at least in the West) you are almost never farther than 2 minutes from one.

Now all they need to do is start putting Starbucks inside Shoppers. :rolleyes:


How many do you have? They bought a local chain here and now we have 12, plus 4 Shopper's Simply Pharmacies.

Yume-sama
Apr 29, 2010, 6:49 PM
The last thing most res developers want is to build retail

Luckily they don't usually have a choice when it's being built in densely populated areas, like a Downtown.

How many do you have? They bought a local chain here and now we have 12, plus 4 Shopper's Simply Pharmacies.

There are 5 within a 5 minute drive of my house in Calgary, including 2 on the same street perhaps a couple of KM apart. They seem to open one in every new development, now.

Three of them opened in the last year. Two of them are open 24h and they all sell *everything* including basic groceries (milk, etc.)

vid
Apr 29, 2010, 6:58 PM
We have three of them on one street, spaced about a kilometre apart. One of them is one of the largest Shoppers Drug Marts in the country, it's the location that handles the prescriptions for the city's old folks homes.

I actually like the layout of their grocery section with the diagonal aisles. It makes it much easier to get to the post office from the door, and you can see down multiple aisles at one as you're walking to them.

Yume-sama
Apr 29, 2010, 7:01 PM
You can tell they have classied themselves up, as they removed the 8 foot poles from the carts at some locations that prevent them from fitting out the door.

Though, I think the one near my apartment in DT Vancouver still has them :P Can't say I blame them...

vid
Apr 29, 2010, 7:03 PM
I don't think Shoppers ever had that here. Dollarama stopped doing it, people would just tilt the carts to get them out of the store then dump them in the river before catching the bus. :rolleyes: It was kinda fun to watch, all the poles wandering around the store.

WhipperSnapper
Apr 29, 2010, 7:18 PM
Luckily they don't usually have a choice when it's being built in densely populated areas, like a Downtown.



There's also a pretty good reason res developers don't like building retail especially outside of established areas. There's a lot of vacant storefronts under the newer condo towers in Toronto will no hope of filling or selling the space.

Coldrsx
Apr 29, 2010, 7:24 PM
The last thing most res developers want is to build retail

Depends.

My condo has a Starbucks on the main floor and I would bet that 75% of the purchasers were sold on that fact alone.

Yume-sama
Apr 29, 2010, 7:36 PM
There's also a pretty good reason res developers don't like building retail especially outside of established areas. There's a lot of vacant storefronts under the newer condo towers in Toronto will no hope of filling or selling the space.

My building does still have some un-leased space. It took awhile for it all to be leased, but now we have a fancy pants hair salon, and a Fido Store along with the IGA, and Homesense, who were the original anchor tenants.

I'm sure when the economy fully rebounds in Toronto it will all be leased.

Depends.

My condo has a Starbucks on the main floor and I would bet that 75% of the purchasers were sold on that fact alone.

Mine has a Tim Hortons :D Which is exceedingly rare in Vancouver.

But, it's OK. There are two Starbucks directly across the street, almost right beside eachother, separated by three other stores.

Coldrsx
Apr 29, 2010, 8:12 PM
Most seasoned developers KNOW that the right retailer will actually bring more sales than just an empty amenity on the main, but it is a fine line for many buyers are concerned about noise, smells, and traffic.

Denscity
Apr 29, 2010, 11:34 PM
Another trend that Vancouver started?

Architype
Apr 29, 2010, 11:40 PM
Vancouver has been doing this, at least to some extent, for decades.

SpongeG
Apr 29, 2010, 11:45 PM
the article says toronto was the first city in 1970 something

Vancouver i think can claim the first ones to have big box stores like home depot and costco as the retail below

Architype
Apr 29, 2010, 11:55 PM
the article says toronto was the first city in 1970 something

Vancouver i think can claim the first ones to have big box stores like home depot and costco as the retail below

There are high rise buildings (but rentals, not condos) from the sixties in Vancouver's West End with stores at street level; I presume they were there from the beginning.

Coldrsx
Apr 30, 2010, 12:46 AM
^there are towers in Edmonton from the 50's, 60's with retail...

Acajack
Apr 30, 2010, 1:27 AM
I really like how Shoppers has changed their "image" in the past couple of years. Their stores are actually nice, now.

:yes: And with Shopper Drug Mart reproducing like rabbits (at least in the West) you are almost never farther than 2 minutes from one.

Now all they need to do is start putting Starbucks inside Shoppers. :rolleyes:

Shoppers Drug Mart is going nuts in Eastern Ontario as well, as is their Quebec banner Pharmaprix in Western Québec.

cslusarc
May 1, 2010, 5:51 PM
Shoppers Drug Mart is going nuts in Eastern Ontario as well, as is their Quebec banner Pharmaprix in Western Québec.

I grew up in North East Winnipeg, and for years the only Shopper's in our corner of town was at Kildonan Place Shopping Centre, now I swear that there are 2 more in the River East area and more in Transcona. If Shopper's was more competitve with Costco on pharmacy fill fee, I'd go there more.

SpongeG
May 1, 2010, 7:13 PM
they are franchised and some franchisees have complained that they are opening too many close to each other - that happenned in surrey/delta one opened across the street from an established one - the older one ended up closing within months

where i live there are 2 within minutes of each other maybe 4 blocks or so

Acajack
May 3, 2010, 1:32 PM
I grew up in North East Winnipeg, and for years the only Shopper's in our corner of town was at Kildonan Place Shopping Centre, now I swear that there are 2 more in the River East area and more in Transcona. If Shopper's was more competitve with Costco on pharmacy fill fee, I'd go there more.

I recall reading an article about Shoppers Drug Mart's recent expansion being all about gettin' while the gettin's good. In spite of the downturn, Shoppers has the wherewithal to bankroll a big expansion while some its competitors apparently don't. So they are taking advantage of this situation to establish beachheads all over the place. Cornering the market when no one else can afford to.

vid
May 3, 2010, 9:11 PM
There is no one else in the market, at least here. The next largest competitor to Shoppers in Thunder Bay is probably Zellers. We used to have a locally owned chain competing with them but they bought it out.

SpongeG
May 4, 2010, 1:33 AM
out west we have london drugs (http://www.londondrugs.com/Cultures/en-US/default.htm) - a few years ago well in the last 10 years i guess - shoppers left a lot of shopping malls here and london drugs moved in