[worldlyhaligonian]

I didn't see a thread for this and it definitely stands apart from the stadium discussion.

This thread can be dedicated to the history of CFL football in Halifax and those who think a team could be a source of municipal/provincial/regional pride.

I would be interested to see logo concepts and why somebody hasn't put a solid enough business case together and made this happen already.

From what I've seen, Fares seems to be one of the most legit developers in Halifax right now with his designs and the approval rate that leads to construction. It would be incredible for him to design and build something in partnership with somebody to manage the asset.

[worldlyhaligonian]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Schooners

[Jstaleness]

I'm watching the Argo's game now. Also, Halifax Tiger-Cats is a great name. That is of course if Hamilton loses the team.

[fenwick16]

Good idea for a thread. I'll post any information that I come across relating to a CFL team in Halifax. The CFL has a lot more talent than many people realize. Because it is a Canadian league many don't give it enough credit. However, many CFL quarterbacks have gone on to do very well in the NFL - Doug Flutie, Warren Moon and Jeff Garcia are three that pop into my head.

[GORDBO]

It would be great, if Halifax were awarded a C.F.L. franchise. However, I hope it would be an expansion team, it would be a sad day, if any current team were forced to relocate!

[fenwick16]

Yes, I wouldn't want to see the Tiger-Cats move. There is no point getting a CFL team unless it is a strong league.

Also, I look forward to seeing an expansion team improve over the years until they win the Grey Cup. It always makes for a good sports story to see a team go from an underdog to a champion.

[terrynorthend]

Yes, I wouldn't want to see the Tiger-Cats move. There is no point getting a CFL team unless it is a strong league.

Also, I look forward to seeing an expansion team improve over the years until they win the Grey Cup. It always makes for a good sports story to see a team go from an underdog to a champion.

I think they are pretty safe. It seems like a bit of political posturing going on in the Hammer, nothing more.

I don't think the CFL would have any problem adding a couple of expansion teams. They are a small league with few teams, and have expressed interest in expanding many times. Certainly another team in the East would help balance things. Moncton or Halifax, or both... a local rivalry would go a long way to keeping CFL viable downeast.

[worldlyhaligonian]

I don't think the CFL would have any problem adding a couple of expansion teams. They are a small league with few teams, and have expressed interest in expanding many times. Certainly another team in the East would help balance things. Moncton or Halifax, or both... a local rivalry would go a long way to keeping CFL viable downeast.

I would love that. I kind of got worked about about an NB team before because in the West they all rep their own province (or even city)... not the region. Not that I don't like the other maritime provinces, but I hate having to settle for "maritime" or "atlantic" constantly. No province is really as alike as the western provinces are to one another...

Look at Saskatchewan, they would never cheer for a team in Alberta.

Lol, I saw an advertisement the other day regarding the province's crown corporations. It said, "Hey buddy, this isn't Alberta..."

I guess its a little bit like the fued going on between Niagra and Toronto, or the who NB trying to outdo NS thing.

[JayM]

I would love that. I kind of got worked about about an NB team before because in the West they all rep their own province (or even city)... not the region. Not that I don't like the other maritime provinces, but I hate having to settle for "maritime" or "atlantic" constantly. No province is really as alike as the western provinces are to one another...

Look at Saskatchewan, they would never cheer for a team in Alberta.

Lol, I saw an advertisement the other day regarding the province's crown corporations. It said, "Hey buddy, this isn't Alberta..."

I guess its a little bit like the fued going on between Niagra and Toronto, or the who NB trying to outdo NS thing.

Hands down to support of an Atlantic team Moncton or Halifax. Halifax does have that swagger but seeing how there is no suitable location for a nice stadium like Moncton does, it just went back to Atlantic Schooner phase. Franchise without a stadium.

B.C. Lions temporary field $14.4M if you are lucky enough maybe can win the lottomax :)

details of cost here (http://www.globaltvbc.com/sports/With+temporary+stadium+Lions+Whitecaps+bank+nostalgia/2372224/story.html)

[hfx_chris]

That's the thing though, there are plenty of suitable locations in Halifax if one looks and examines them. The issue is the lack of will both from the politicians, and business groups.

[Welkin]

The problem with a CFL franchise in Halifax or anywhere else in the Atlantic Region is that it is starting from scratch. While that seems quite obvious, it is also the focus of the problem. CFL franchises are not great moneymakers even when the city/province gives you what is basically a free stadium. I think it would surprise everyone if they just knew how little other CFL teams pay to play in their stadiums.

In addition to free or almost free rent, some teams are even additionally subsidized by the local government. Hamilton gives the Tiger-Cats over $1.3 million each year, plus a free stadium and it is a privately owned team. I don't see Halifax building a free stadium for anyone, much less helping them cover their expenses. Saskatchewan is trying to build a new $450 million stadium, but no one is talking about what the Riders will be paying in rent, if they will be paying anything.

As much as I would love to have a CFL team in Halifax, it will be a challenge to find an investor or group of investors willing to put up $30-$40 million ($20 million or so towards an $80 million stadium, $7 million franchise fee, $5 million operating capital, $5 million for a decent training facility) to get a CFL franchise started from scratch. It is easier (but often a great challenge ie: Toronto) to get someone to buy an existing team because the start-up costs are dramatically lower. There is a reason that no one has ever started a CFL franchise from scratch, in a city without a ready made stadium with very low rent.

Vancouver spent $14 million for a temporary stadium plus is spending over $450 million to renovate B.C. Place. The B.C. Lions get all this while paying little or no rent. Unless the taxpayers of Halifax step up to the plate and are ready to spend tens of millions of dollars (without much of a return) we will still be talking about how Halifax needs a CFL team in 2020 or 2030 or ........

[terrynorthend]

The problem with a CFL franchise in Halifax or anywhere else in the Atlantic Region is that it is starting from scratch. While that seems quite obvious, it is also the focus of the problem. CFL franchises are not great moneymakers even when the city/province gives you what is basically a free stadium. I think it would surprise everyone if they just knew how little other CFL teams pay to play in their stadiums.

In addition to free or almost free rent, some teams are even additionally subsidized by the local government. Hamilton gives the Tiger-Cats over $1.3 million each year, plus a free stadium and it is a privately owned team. I don't see Halifax building a free stadium for anyone, much less helping them cover their expenses. Saskatchewan is trying to build a new $450 million stadium, but no one is talking about what the Riders will be paying in rent, if they will be paying anything.

As much as I would love to have a CFL team in Halifax, it will be a challenge to find an investor or group of investors willing to put up $30-$40 million ($20 million or so towards an $80 million stadium, $7 million franchise fee, $5 million operating capital, $5 million for a decent training facility) to get a CFL franchise started from scratch. It is easier (but often a great challenge ie: Toronto) to get someone to buy an existing team because the start-up costs are dramatically lower. There is a reason that no one has ever started a CFL franchise from scratch, in a city without a ready made stadium with very low rent.

Vancouver spent $14 million for a temporary stadium plus is spending over $450 million to renovate B.C. Place. The B.C. Lions get all this while paying little or no rent. Unless the taxpayers of Halifax step up to the plate and are ready to spend tens of millions of dollars (without much of a return) we will still be talking about how Halifax needs a CFL team in 2020 or 2030 or ........

Agreed. CFL teams are notoriously difficult and expensive to run. Look at Ottawa's Roughriders and then their Renegades. A city of 1 million and the nation's capital can't keep a team running. Look at the current drama in Hamilton. Look at the attempts to run teams in the US in the 1990s. Look at Toronto, scared to death of the NFL coming to town and upsetting the tiny margin the Argos run with. My gut feeling is that Halifax, or especially Moncton might be able to run a team for 5 or 10 years max before its team's organization collapses under its own weight.

Regina is always paraded out and touted as the reason why an Atlantic team should be a no-brainer. In truth, they have a very special relationship in Saskatchewan between the people and their football, and it still sounds that they have financial difficulty. That relationship simply does not exist here in Atlantic Canada. It is a unique fandom to anywhere else in Canada, perhaps even North America (possibly similar in Green Bay).

If costs were low.. low maintenance, low start-up... (I'm talking 40-50 million total start-up costs with no annual public maintenance subsidy, and a break-even point of 3000-5000 fans per game: ie. I'm dreaming in technicolor) ...and Halifax and Moncton and maybe Quebec and St. John's NF could get teams and a little division running, maybe even a farm league of sorts... then we might have something.

[fenwick16]

The problem with a CFL franchise in Halifax or anywhere else in the Atlantic Region is that it is starting from scratch. While that seems quite obvious, it is also the focus of the problem. CFL franchises are not great moneymakers even when the city/province gives you what is basically a free stadium. I think it would surprise everyone if they just knew how little other CFL teams pay to play in their stadiums.

In addition to free or almost free rent, some teams are even additionally subsidized by the local government. Hamilton gives the Tiger-Cats over $1.3 million each year, plus a free stadium and it is a privately owned team. I don't see Halifax building a free stadium for anyone, much less helping them cover their expenses. Saskatchewan is trying to build a new $450 million stadium, but no one is talking about what the Riders will be paying in rent, if they will be paying anything.

As much as I would love to have a CFL team in Halifax, it will be a challenge to find an investor or group of investors willing to put up $30-$40 million ($20 million or so towards an $80 million stadium, $7 million franchise fee, $5 million operating capital, $5 million for a decent training facility) to get a CFL franchise started from scratch. It is easier (but often a great challenge ie: Toronto) to get someone to buy an existing team because the start-up costs are dramatically lower. There is a reason that no one has ever started a CFL franchise from scratch, in a city without a ready made stadium with very low rent.

Vancouver spent $14 million for a temporary stadium plus is spending over $450 million to renovate B.C. Place. The B.C. Lions get all this while paying little or no rent. Unless the taxpayers of Halifax step up to the plate and are ready to spend tens of millions of dollars (without much of a return) we will still be talking about how Halifax needs a CFL team in 2020 or 2030 or ........

One thing that you did not explain, is why these cities would go to all this trouble if such teams are not desirable. You mentioned Vancouver spending $450 million to renovate BC Place and spending $14 million for a temporary facility for the BC Lions. I am sure that the city is doing this for other reasons than just to please the BC Lions. When BC Place was built, Vancouver had dreams of attracting a Major League Baseball team. Maybe they still do. Obviously, Vancouver is thinking big. Halifax would comparatively only have small dreams in building a stadium and attracting a CFL team.

Do you think that building the Metro Centre was justified based on having an AHL team (the Nova Scotia Voyageurs). An equivalent facility would likely cost $80 - $90 millions in today's dollars. But how many people would consider the Metro Centre to be a mistake? By the way, prior to and during construction of the Metro Centre there was opposition with some saying it couldn't be justified.

[Welkin]

One thing that you did not explain, is why these cities would go to all this trouble if such teams are not desirable. You mentioned Vancouver spending $450 million to renovate BC Place and spending $14 million for a temporary facility for the BC Lions. I am sure that the city is doing this for other reasons than just to please the BC Lions. When BC Place was built, Vancouver had dreams of attracting a Major League Baseball team. Maybe they still do. Obviously, Vancouver is thinking big. Halifax would comparatively only have small dreams in building a stadium and attracting a CFL team.

Do you think that building the Metro Centre was justified based on having an AHL team (the Nova Scotia Voyageurs). An equivalent facility would likely cost $80 - $90 millions in today's dollars. But how many people would consider the Metro Centre to be a mistake? By the way, prior to and during construction of the Metro Centre there was opposition with some saying it couldn't be justified.

I can't tell you why a city like Vancouver spends so much money to keep the B.C. Lions playing football. While $14 million is not much for a temporary stadium, it is a lot for a stadium for just one year so that the Lions have a place to play while B.C. Place is being renovated. Vancouver might have grand plans for B.C. Place but $450 million for a new roof and upgrades seems a little extreme. Obviously some cities are not willing to spend hardly a dime. Toronto is not talking about a new stadium to keep the Argos and the facilities in Calgary are quite poor. Without the Pan Am Games I don't think anything would be happening in Hamilton. Even Quebec City, which has great potential as an expansion site, is not throwing any money into expanding Laval to CFL standards. I guess Vancouver just has a boatload of cash burning a hole in its pocket.

I am not opposed to Halifax building a stadium and I feel that if they build a reasonably priced stadium ($50-$80 million that does not cost a fortune to maintain) that it can be cost effective if it is being used for multiple activities. Some events like concerts, soccer friendlies or potential Vanier Cups can be profitable ventures for a stadium authority. Other events like youth sports don't bring in any revenue but are something most communities feel are worth funding. I was only pointing out that the main tenant that the stadium would be built for to attract, a CFL Franchise, is not going to be a profitable source of revenue since CFL teams normally don't pay their fair share of rent or expenses. That is not to say that the city can't make money off a team in their stadium (sales taxes on merchandise and concessions, parking, hotel room taxes, stadium naming rights, a ticket revenue tax or other user fees) but the money is not going to come from the team. A good team of accountants can sit down and project out the annual cost of a stadium vs. expected revenue and the value of civic goodwill that a stadium and sports team brings to the community.

Even if you give a potential owner a rent-free stadium, you still have to find someone willing to drop $15-$20 million ($7 million expansion fee, $5 million operating capital, $3-$5 million for a decent training facility) on a venture that in most cases loses money or makes just a slim profit. The question is, does Halifax have a deeeep-pocket, sports crazy fan that wants to take that risk and carry the team. Some mega-millionaires drop $20 million plus on a new yacht, maybe we can find one to drop it on a football team.

[worldlyhaligonian]

I can't tell you why a city like Vancouver spends so much money to keep the B.C. Lions playing football. While $14 million is not much for a temporary stadium, it is a lot for a stadium for just one year so that the Lions have a place to play while B.C. Place is being renovated. Vancouver might have grand plans for B.C. Place but $450 million for a new roof and upgrades seems a little extreme. Obviously some cities are not willing to spend hardly a dime. Toronto is not talking about a new stadium to keep the Argos and the facilities in Calgary are quite poor. Without the Pan Am Games I don't think anything would be happening in Hamilton. Even Quebec City, which has great potential as an expansion site, is not throwing any money into expanding Laval to CFL standards. I guess Vancouver just has a boatload of cash burning a hole in its pocket.

I am not opposed to Halifax building a stadium and I feel that if they build a reasonably priced stadium ($50-$80 million that does not cost a fortune to maintain) that it can be cost effective if it is being used for multiple activities. Some events like concerts, soccer friendlies or potential Vanier Cups can be profitable ventures for a stadium authority. Other events like youth sports don't bring in any revenue but are something most communities feel are worth funding. I was only pointing out that the main tenant that the stadium would be built for to attract, a CFL Franchise, is not going to be a profitable source of revenue since CFL teams normally don't pay their fair share of rent or expenses. That is not to say that the city can't make money off a team in their stadium (sales taxes on merchandise and concessions, parking, hotel room taxes, stadium naming rights, a ticket revenue tax or other user fees) but the money is not going to come from the team. A good team of accountants can sit down and project out the annual cost of a stadium vs. expected revenue and the value of civic goodwill that a stadium and sports team brings to the community.

Even if you give a potential owner a rent-free stadium, you still have to find someone willing to drop $15-$20 million ($7 million expansion fee, $5 million operating capital, $3-$5 million for a decent training facility) on a venture that in most cases loses money or makes just a slim profit. The question is, does Halifax have a deeeep-pocket, sports crazy fan that wants to take that risk and carry the team. Some mega-millionaires drop $20 million plus on a new yacht, maybe we can find one to drop it on a football team.

What about Ron Joyce and Tim Horton's owners in the maritimes?

[fenwick16]

I can't tell you why a city like Vancouver spends so much money to keep the B.C. Lions playing football. While $14 million is not much for a temporary stadium, it is a lot for a stadium for just one year so that the Lions have a place to play while B.C. Place is being renovated. Vancouver might have grand plans for B.C. Place but $450 million for a new roof and upgrades seems a little extreme. Obviously some cities are not willing to spend hardly a dime. Toronto is not talking about a new stadium to keep the Argos and the facilities in Calgary are quite poor. Without the Pan Am Games I don't think anything would be happening in Hamilton. Even Quebec City, which has great potential as an expansion site, is not throwing any money into expanding Laval to CFL standards. I guess Vancouver just has a boatload of cash burning a hole in its pocket.

I am not opposed to Halifax building a stadium and I feel that if they build a reasonably priced stadium ($50-$80 million that does not cost a fortune to maintain) that it can be cost effective if it is being used for multiple activities. Some events like concerts, soccer friendlies or potential Vanier Cups can be profitable ventures for a stadium authority. Other events like youth sports don't bring in any revenue but are something most communities feel are worth funding. I was only pointing out that the main tenant that the stadium would be built for to attract, a CFL Franchise, is not going to be a profitable source of revenue since CFL teams normally don't pay their fair share of rent or expenses. That is not to say that the city can't make money off a team in their stadium (sales taxes on merchandise and concessions, parking, hotel room taxes, stadium naming rights, a ticket revenue tax or other user fees) but the money is not going to come from the team. A good team of accountants can sit down and project out the annual cost of a stadium vs. expected revenue and the value of civic goodwill that a stadium and sports team brings to the community.

Even if you give a potential owner a rent-free stadium, you still have to find someone willing to drop $15-$20 million ($7 million expansion fee, $5 million operating capital, $3-$5 million for a decent training facility) on a venture that in most cases loses money or makes just a slim profit. The question is, does Halifax have a deeeep-pocket, sports crazy fan that wants to take that risk and carry the team. Some mega-millionaires drop $20 million plus on a new yacht, maybe we can find one to drop it on a football team.

I agree with your statements. I would like to believe that a Halifax area team will be an overwhelming success - I have no proof, it is just my gut feeling and although I could just as easily come up with reasons why it wouldn't succeed, I prefer to have faith in Nova Scotia sports fans to support a team.

The question in my mind is - how can the financial risk for the Halifax area tax payers be minimized? I wouldn't start with a $60 - $80 million dollar stadium. I would just start with a $30 million dollar stadium that seats about 15,000. However, build this $30 million dollar stadium with complete plans for a 30,000 seat permanent stadium (concrete and steel, not aluminum). Then if an owner wants to locate in Halifax, I would like to see the municipality and province support the team by expanding the stadium.

Prior to getting a CFL team, the $30 million dollar stadium could be used for concerts and exhibition CFL games (with additional temporary seats). More importantly in my mind, it could be used to attract major sports events to the Halifax area such as the 2015 World Women's FIFA Cup (8 - 9 Canadian host cities will be required, if Canada is selected by FIFA). This could mean federal funding for Halifax that could be put into expanding the stadium or providing upgrades (my concern is that Halifax won't be able to attract a major outdoor sports event without some type of definite plan for a stadium). Even if Halifax just has detailed plans and a location selected for a stadium, that might be enough to help Halifax get selected and get the federal funding required to build the first stage of a $30 million dollar stadium (municipal and provincial funding would also be required). Hamilton and Toronto already have funding for the 2015 Pan American Games, so that might bump Halifax ahead of these two cities for federal funding for the 2015 FIFA Women's Cup (still 8 - 9 host cities will be required).

I have very big dreams - I would eventually like to see Canada get the FIFA World Men's Cup (year 2034?) and have a stadium in Halifax so that it can be one of several host Canadian cities (South Africa did it!).

[halifaxboyns]

I would suggest that in order to get a team; you first look at sponsorship opportunities; that's how you could build the case for a stadium and the team.

So you could attempt to seak out some big local companies to help sponsor the arena in exchange for advertising opportunities within the stadium or on the stadium (fascia or parking lot signage). So you could look at Eastlink or Bell Aliant, NSPI...I can't think of any others, but I'm sure there are more. Perhaps even McCain or other companies throughout NS? Then move to national level sponsorship - Bell, Telus, Shaw, RIM, The Banks (any), etc. If you come up with a good finacial case to show the team could make money quickly - they will get on board; especialy national companies that are weak in the maritimes (they'll see any avenue to expand their presance as a good thing).

If you come up with a good business case, I could easily see that 30% of the cost of the stadium could be paid for through corporate sponsorship. So if fenwick's numbers are correct - you could easily have 10 million $ in sponsorship - thus public investment reduces to 20 million. I'm sure the guy who does the concerts on the commons would get involved if he could cut a good deal on the space (especially if there is increasing negative reactions to concerts on the commons).

I share Fenwick's vision - I have big dreams for HRM. I'd like to see it get something big too. Never thought of a fifa cup, but I've added it to my list. I'm thinking even bigger; commonwealth games or maybe an expo? Heck, why not even a summer olympic games? The sky is the limit if you come up with a good plan and have the facilities.

[Welkin]

BMO Field was built for $63 million back in 2007 and it seats 20,500. It is a pretty basic stadium but good enough for professional sports. It is not just a large high school stadium like they built up in Moncton. If we use BMO as a gauge, it would have cost around $77 million to make it a 25,000 seat stadium. I am sure it would cost well over $80 million to build it at 25,000 seats in Halifax at 2010 prices. Personally I can't see Halifax building anything grander than BMO (this is not Regina where those crazy people want to build a $450-$600 million Taj Mahal white elephant) so lets put a cap on a new stadium at $80 million.

If the city floated muni bonds at say 5% (these figures are just estimates) the annual debt load over a 20-year bond would be $6.3 million. So in reality, you are not paying for an $80 million stadium, you are paying for a $6.3 million stadium each year for 20 years. That is much more manageable. If you sell stadium naming rights for $1.5 million and sub stadium naming rights (Houston TX sold the naming rights to their stadium to Reliant Energy and then sold the naming right to the stadium entrances to Comcast Cable, Coca-Cola, Ford Motors and Amegy Bank. They also sold the naming rights to their club seats and probably even the restrooms) for another $2 million, that gets you down to only $2.8 million. Stadiums can also sell game-time advertising for $millions. Some stadiums charge a $5 ticket tax (basically a user fee for using the stadium and that could raise another $1.2 million. After splitting parking and concessions with the CFL team, you pretty much have your bond payment paid for (if you have a successful team drawing 25,000 a game). Annual maintenance and operating costs of $2-3 million could be paid for by profits off concerts or other activities.

It is a risk for a city like Halifax to build and operate a stadium, but it is not an overwhelming risk. If there was any political will at all, they could easily get this project accomplished. Even if the stadium was only marginally successful, it would not be that much of a drain on a city of 450,000. However, any successful stadium campaign has to be sold as more than just a free home to whom ever brings a CFL franchise to our fair city or as a holy grail for CFL fans. A stadium is a great place for any community event that draws thousands of people. If the stadium uses FieldTurf grass, it can be used for football games, soccer tournaments, youth activities, lacrosse tournaments, concerts and other events. It also puts Halifax at the table if Canada ever gets another event like the 2007 FIFA U-20 World Cup. I still can't believe that Victoria got a seat at that table with their dinky stadium and Halifax was totally shut out because we didn't have even that.

[joeyedm]

Summer Olympics would be a stretch. However the IOC is now putting on a Youth Olympic games. Both summer and winter. Those games I think would be a good fit for Halifax. However I feel that the debacle with the Commonwealth Games may have irrevocably hurt Halifax's image.

[isaidso]

It would be great, if Halifax were awarded a C.F.L. franchise. However, I hope it would be an expansion team, it would be a sad day, if any current team were forced to relocate!

Agree, the Hamilton Tiger-Cats trace their roots to 1869. No other pro football team in north America can say that. The Tiger-Cats need to stay in Hamilton, and Halifax needs an expansion team.