[go_leafs_go02]

This kind of relates to the debacle in Hamilton over where to build a new stadium for the Tiger-Cats.

With the renovation of BC Place, it appears baseball will not be able to play there anymore, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, let's say Vancouver gets awarded an MLB expansion team to start play in 2014.

Where would you put the stadium in Vancouver?

I'm trying to think of an ideal view to combine the city-space and the north shore mountains. However, maybe there's an even more groundbreaking location with a heck of a view, good access to transit and roads, but close to the city core.

and to complicate things, due to the setting sun, ballparks are always looking out in a more easterly direction. Here's an image for you
http://www.flipflopflyin.com/flipflopflyball/info-orientation.png

Therefore, IF the UBC line could be built, my choice would be Jericho Park/Beach.

[ozonemania]

That would be a gorgeous setting but I can't see how anyone in that area would be supportive of it.

How about False Creek flats? If we're talking about UBC Skytrain Expansion, VCC/Finning that area would work.

[mrjauk]

Two things:

Vancouver can not support an MLB team. We couldn't even hold onto a AAA minor-league franchise. With no revenue sharing or salary cap in place, how is Vancouver going to compete for players, who can command up to $25 million US per year to play the game. Toronto--with all of its corporate clout and muscle--is barely holding on to the Blue Jays due to the economics of MLB.

Second: Jerico Beach for a stadium?!? Are you kidding me?!? Do I really have to go into the myriad ways in which that is just a ridiculous idea?

[SpikePhanta]

I'm pretty sure they said that bc place can handle a mlb team after the renos..
http://www.theprovince.com/sports/blowing+plans+Place+Casino+anchor+mega+complex/2674221/story.html

The B.C. government has just inked a mega-deal with a private-sector partner to develop the lands west of B.C. Place Stadium, and sources are whispering words to me like "all-in," "double-down" and "baby needs a new a pair of shoes!"

Picture this, Vancouver: A huge new entertainment-and-retail complex, directly attached to the refurbished stadium with a snazzy retractable roof, and all anchored by — you got it — a shiny new casino.

That was the red-hot buzz burning along the government grapevine Thursday, as word leaked out that the B.C. Pavilion Corp. had signed the long-awaited development deal for the stadium lands.

"I can confirm that we have an agreement with a party and there will be an official announcement in about two weeks," said David Podmore, CEO of the Crown corporation that owns our loved-and-hated pillow-top stadium.

Podmore confirmed the air-supported fabric roof will be deflated once and for all in May, and construction will start immediately on the new, $563-million, retractable model.

He said the 700,000-square-foot parking lot between the Cambie Street Bridge and the stadium will be transformed into a commercial-entertainment extravaganza.

"We want to create an exciting environment that will reanimate and reactivate a plaza that, right now, is pretty sterile," he said.

When I put it to him that the private-sector partner on the project is Paragon Gaming of Las Vegas, and that the plans include a large casino, Podmore said: "I can't confirm that. I'm not denying that. I can certainly confirm Paragon was one of the parties that submitted a proposal."

Paragon Gaming owns the downtown Edgewater Casino at the Plaza of Nations near Yaletown. It has struggled at this location and would presumably be shut down under the B.C. Place plan.

Paragon Gaming is the brainchild of founding partners Diana Bennett and Scott Menke of Las Vegas. She is the daughter of William Bennett, who for many years ran the Circus Circus and Excalibur casinos.

Paragon spokeswoman Naomi Strasser also refused to confirm or deny that the company had landed the B.C. Place development deal: "Paragon did participate in a request-for-proposal, and that's really all I'm allowed to say."

Podmore said the B.C. Place lands will be developed under a long-term lease and will hopefully create a vibrant new area that will link Robson Street to the False Creek waterfront. He said Terry Fox Plaza and adjacent lands owned by Canadian Metropolitan Properties are also being redeveloped, and the lands east of the stadium will be leased and developed under a separate deal still in the works.

Meanwhile, the new roof and other upgrades to B.C. Place — to be completed in 2011 — will transform the entire area, he said.

"It kind of bugs me that people think we're just rebuilding a sports stadium," he said. "When we're done, this will be the premier multi-use facility on the continent."

The renovated stadium will be home to the B.C. Lions football team and the Vancouver Whitecaps Major League Soccer franchise. The 2011 Grey Cup is already pencilled in and Podmore is dreaming even bigger.

"We have tried to make sure the stadium can still accommodate professional baseball," he said.

Is he saying Vancouver can land a Major League Baseball franchise?

"You never know," he answered.

Tourism Minister Kevin Krueger also played the don't-ask, don't-tell game with me about a B.C. Place casino. "I have my hands over my ears," he said, as soon as I mentioned Paragon Gaming. "I'm not confirming and I'm not denying."

Krueger — once the governing Liberals' fiercest opponents of expanded gambling, by the way — said plans for B.C. Place and environs will blow people away. "This will be like the transformation of the Expo 86 lands — possibly bigger," he said.

[Distill3d]

Whats wrong with just expanding on the current stadium at Queen Elisabeth Park if Vancouver ever got a MLB team? I just don't think there's any other place to put another baseball stadium in Vancouver. Perhaps downtown Surrey would be a good location for a larger baseball stadium. I propose here:

http://goo.gl/krSg

[go_leafs_go02]

I'm pretty sure they said that bc place can handle a mlb team after the renos..
http://www.theprovince.com/sports/blowing+plans+Place+Casino+anchor+mega+complex/2674221/story.html

If that's the case - I see it working as an RFK type of setting like what happened when the Expos moved.

They played out of RFK stadium for 3 seasons I believe while a new place got built.

To think baseball would be sustainable in BC Place would be a long-shot. It's akin to the metrodome, although I know it will have a better roof.. However, modern stadiums focus on the neighbourhood/views around it primarily it seems.

That's why I proposed Jericho beach. That would be a heck of a view - I would like to know the major deterrents to that site - I definitley know of some, but why it would be asinine is something I would like more details or points of.

[Prometheus]

That's why I proposed Jericho beach. That would be a heck of a view - I would like to know the major deterrents to that site - I definitley know of some, but why it would be asinine is something I would like more details or points of.

Are you serious? Do you not know anything of Jericho Beach Park and the surrounding area?

Jericho Beach Park is one of the most beautiful, charming and beloved parks in Vancouver. Its duck, turtle and beaver-inhabited pond is idyllic. The park is surrounded on all sides by a very quiet, highly established, highly affluent residential neighbourhood.

This is the last place for a major league sports stadium.

If MLB ever came to Vancouver and BC Place can in fact be configured to accommodate baseball, then BC Place is exactly where MLB would go.

[EastVanMark]

BC Place is completely unsuitable for baseball. You would need to build a completely different facility.

[Yume-sama]

I'd think we have a better chance of getting an NBA franchise back. That could realistically work well. Baseball... not so much.

Unless you pulled the genius marketing move of bringing over China / Japan / India's top players :P No Cubans on our team (so what if we're last place)!

MLB franchises must cost about $1 billion to start up, wouldn't you say? Perhaps more, if the NHL asks about $300 million.

And since the MLB commissioner is not Gary Bettman, I wouldn't anticipate MLB expansion in to areas that have little to no interest in the sport.

[Zassk]

BC Place was indeed built for MLB baseball. If it's unsuitable, then we will not be getting a team, period.

[WarrenC12]

BC Place is completely unsuitable for baseball. You would need to build a completely different facility.

Huh? Please detail why? It was built with MLB/NFL in mind. It's not perfect, but it's more than "suitable".

[red-paladin]

Huh? Please detail why? It was built with MLB/NFL in mind. It's not perfect, but it's more than "suitable".

Well, it would be hard to be worse than Montreal Olympic Stadium.

[EastVanMark]

Huh? Please detail why? It was built with MLB/NFL in mind. It's not perfect, but it's more than "suitable".

First off, it was not built with the NFL in mind. And secondly, no, its nowhere near "suitable". It was so when it opened in 1983 but not now. The stadium has nowhere near the revenue making capabilities that modern day ballparks have.

[EastVanMark]

Well, it would be hard to be worse than Montreal Olympic Stadium.

which isn't a major league ballpark either and was the #1 reason why the team they did have left. So to repeat that history would be ludicrous

[wrenegade]

Ok, since we're talking about an MLB franchise here, we're obviously dreaming at least a little bit. So I took that and ran with it.

http://media.nscdn.com/uploads/member/pictures/1282768818Vancouver_MLB_Stadium.jpg

In this alternate reality where Vancouver could actually support an MLB team, Translink/CoV has found 2 billion dollars under the cushions and built the Waterfront Transit hub, and CP rail has no problem with a massive retractable roof sitting over their train yard during the summer. Slightly more believable, the convention centre has expanded east and the Heliport has been relocated up above a new Seabus terminal to connect with Canada Place Way, Granville and Richards Street extensions. Obviously this alternate reality also supports a couple 400+ foot office towers around/above the transit hub.

The stadium is modelled after Fenway (I'm a big BoSox fan) but it's flipped to emulate AT&T park in San Fran a bit, with the green monster giving way to the Pacific where small boats and kayaks can sit to catch home runs (while avoiding Seabuses, Tugs and Cruise Ships). It would also be open to look over the water and the North Shore mountains. The field would have to be natural grass and would be adaptable for soccer (like Safeco). The roof modelled directly off of Safeco as well, moving over the tracks when not needed. What would be really sweet is if it could be made out of peaked fabric like Canada Place. Right-Centre field would also be able to hold a stage and host concerts (like Kerfoot's vision for his waterfront stadium). The site would have to be heavily piled (like VCEC West) but would have a level or two of parking between the Canada Place Way level and Waterfront Road level (how much I'm not sure, I would sink the field level down a bit so you walked in off of the plaza to the same grade as the 1st level concourse). The Seawall could be continued either around Canada Place or have it join up from a Granville Street. It would continue only as far as the Heliport and then link back through the Stadium Plaza onto Richards Street and then past Steamworks and into Gastown.

Who wants to lend me $10 billion?

edit: Yes, that roof is quite a bit bigger than Safeco, and yes it does completely cover the seating and playing field area.

[go_leafs_go02]

Now that I like.

The only reason I suggested Jericho beach way back when was due to such a beautiful outfield view of downtown and the North Shore Mountains.


Great job. That's pretty neat.

Would the field need to be elevated? Or can it be built on ground level with the roof built above it?

[wrenegade]

Thinking about that again, the field would probably have to be at (or close to) ground level throwing the parking out the window. The roof would have to be built quite a bit about the Canada Place Way level.

[Prometheus]

This parcel of land is owned by the Whitecaps and is precisely where they want to build their own purpose-built soccer stadium: http://www.whitecapsfc.com/stadium/waterfront/renderings/

[wrenegade]

The Whitecaps own this parcel of land and this is precisely where they want to build their own purpose-built waterfront stadium: http://www.whitecapsfc.com/stadium/waterfront/renderings/

umm.......no shit. Hence me mentioning Kerfoot. His plan for the Whitecaps stadium is all but dead with the BC Place reno. However I'd gladly welcome the Whitecaps back (as I mentioned) under my plan for a baseball-first stadium. I said I'm dreaming a bit here, but we're talking MLB in Vancouver, so that kinda has to go with the territory.

[mrjauk]

John Podmore knows as much about basebell as my dead Croatian grandmother.

BC Place was built in the 1980s, when teams like the Mariners, Twins, Expos and Astros were playing in domed stadiums. Anybody who is at all conversant with the trend in sports stadia over the last quarter-of-a-century understands that these type of stadia are relics from a bygone age. Interestingly, the Skydome in Toronto (now Rogers Centre) was an anachronism even before it was completed. It signaled the swan song of the all-purpose dome, while Baltimore's Camden Yards ushered in the new era of purpose-built baseball parks. Anyone who has watched games in both places (and I have) is aware of the massive difference in the overall game experience.

Vancouver would not to build something like Safeco to be able to have any hopes of supporting an MLB franchise. We're just not a big or rich enough city to be able to do so.

Renovating Nat Bailey? I have no words. That's like saying, why don't we renovate Killarney community centre to bring in a 2nd NHL team. Or like saying why don't we renovate the pre-school down the street to build a world-class university. And an MLB team is world-class. Each team is worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

If I were allow myself to dream, awvan's "Fenway on the Burrard Inlet"--or Gastown Park--would be fantastic. It would definitely need a retractable roof.

There are no Indian baseball players of any note. I do know that the Pittsburgh Pirates signed a couple of guys--former cricket players--from India after having seen them win a reality show. (The premise was to see if you could find someone in India with enough natural talent to potentially become a pitcher in the majors.) I'm not sure what happened to them and if they're still trying to rise up in the Pirates' minor-league system.

[mrjauk]

As an addendum to my post above, the names of the two Indian pitchers are Rinku Singh and Dinesh Patel. Singh won, and Patel was runner-up in the "Million Dollar Arm" competition in India, a reality show that tried to find potential pitching talent.

They both pitched for the Pirates Gulf Coast League affiliate last year.

[WarrenC12]

First off, it was not built with the NFL in mind. And secondly, no, its nowhere near "suitable". It was so when it opened in 1983 but not now. The stadium has nowhere near the revenue making capabilities that modern day ballparks have.

Revenue making capabilities? You know what makes money? Sold out stadiums. The newly renovated BC Place would be fine for a team that was winning and attracting fans. But baseball isn't coming here anyway.

The reason Montreal moved is because they were drawing 7000 people to a game.

You're believing the same hype that politicians do when they're told XX team needs a new home at $1b+ of taxpayer expense or they will be "forced to leave". :haha:

[go_leafs_go02]

Revenue making capabilities? You know what makes money? Sold out stadiums. The newly renovated BC Place would be fine for a team that was winning and attracting fans. But baseball isn't coming here anyway.

The reason Montreal moved is because they were drawing 7000 people to a game.

You're believing the same hype that politicians do when they're told XX team needs a new home at $1b+ of taxpayer expense or they will be "forced to leave". :haha:

Not really, There was no coroprate support of the Expos. If your luxury boxes are full, you profit a whole lot more than having a sold out stadium with poor corporate support.

[Prometheus]

umm.......no shit. Hence me mentioning Kerfoot. His plan for the Whitecaps stadium is all but dead with the BC Place reno.

It is not dead; it simply has not been permitted. The Whitecaps do not care for BC Place (even with its renovations) and retain every desire to build a purpose-built soccer stadium on the waterfront. Thus the obvious point was that if the government ever permitted a stadium to be built in this area, it will be a purpose-built soccer stadium as per the land owner's desire.

Get it, sport?

[Vancity]

It is not dead; it simply has not been permitted. The Whitecaps do not care for BC Place (even with its renovations) and retain every desire to build a purpose-built soccer stadium on the waterfront. Thus the obvious point was that if the government ever permitted a stadium to be built in this area, it will be a purpose-built soccer stadium as per the land owner's desire.

Get it, sport?

I wonder how long the 'Caps would be willing to stay in BC Place. I've read that the 'Caps will be at BC Place until at least 2016. What if the government just says NO to the 'Caps' stadium? Then what do they do? Look elsewhere in Vancouver? Cause it doesn't really make sense to build out in Surrey. Would they go back to Burnaby and build a new stadium there?

On top of that. If the 'Caps leave BC Place, that would mean the only sport franchise to call BC Place home would be...the BC Lions.

[Distill3d]

I wonder how long the 'Caps would be willing to stay in BC Place. I've read that the 'Caps will be at BC Place until at least 2016. What if the government just says NO to the 'Caps' stadium? Then what do they do? Look elsewhere in Vancouver? Cause it doesn't really make sense to build out in Surrey. Would they go back to Burnaby and build a new stadium there?

On top of that. If the 'Caps leave BC Place, that would mean the only sport franchise to call BC Place home would be...the BC Lions.

If Waterfront Stadium gets nixed, then they'll most likely stay and BC Place with the Leo's. Why would they go elsewhere? It works out for the Caps and BC Place. Its an extra 15+ events/year.

The only other obvious choice would be to build a permanent Empire Field, and that's not likely to happen.

[twoNeurons]

I'd put them across the river from Vancouver, in Portland. :D

[Vancity]

If Waterfront Stadium gets nixed, then they'll most likely stay and BC Place with the Leo's. Why would they go elsewhere? It works out for the Caps and BC Place. Its an extra 15+ events/year.

The only other obvious choice would be to build a permanent Empire Field, and that's not likely to happen.

Wouldn't the 'Caps consider another place for a stadium in or near the downtown core? I can't see them playing at BC Place long term. 5 years, maybe 7 years, but they'll probably be frustrated (if they're not already) with the current progress (or lack thereof) with the stadium.

To be frank. I don't understand the politicians in this town. Kerfoot would be on the hook for the ENTIRE stadium project, nothing coming taxpayers, and the city rejects this deal? :koko:

[jlousa]

I certainly don't expect to see the organization come out and state they are no longer pursuing a stadium, but I don't think they are anymore. No inside info, just a hunch.

[EastVanMark]

They most certainly are still pursuing a new stadium, its just that the project has been pushed back for a couple of years while the issues get settled or an alternative site is found (which the Caps are dead set against at this point).

[argon007]

If MLB expansion is coming in Vancouver, I would prefer to build the stadium near Airport (next to BCIT Aerospace Campus) or East Richmond. ummm....i think if they want to build the stadium near skytrains station, it would be better to build it in Alderbridge, Garden City, No 4 Road, and Westminster Highway in Richmond because it is near Lansdowne Station. I know that land is right from Canada Defense, but it is never used.

[logan5]

Two things:

Vancouver can not support an MLB team. We couldn't even hold onto a AAA minor-league franchise. With no revenue sharing or salary cap in place, how is Vancouver going to compete for players, who can command up to $25 million US per year to play the game. Toronto--with all of its corporate clout and muscle--is barely holding on to the Blue Jays due to the economics of MLB.

Second: Jerico Beach for a stadium?!? Are you kidding me?!? Do I really have to go into the myriad ways in which that is just a ridiculous idea?

Vancouver and BC can definitely support a major league team. Our province produces the best baseball players by far in this country. I can go into a myriad of reasons why we could support MLB. We lost our AAA team because our park is too small. If we built a proper park, which we could do at coal harbour, it would be the best ball park in North America, and we would be one of the strongest franchises in MLB. Baseball needs Vancouver.

[jlousa]

:previous:Wow you really believe that?
Can't believe we don't have billionaires lining up to build up a stadium and purchase a team for us.

[logan5]

If things are done right, I think Vancouver would thrive as a MLB city. Here's my list of reasons why it would work.

1. The baseball park - Historic Gastown would be a perfect match for baseball, which are both deep in history. With the water and the mountains as a backdrop, the park itself would be the most picturesque park in baseball. That in itself would draw fans out as well as the cool vibe of Gastown. Just going to the game itself would be a cool experience. If the Blue Jays weren't playing in the sterile environment they are in, attendance figures would be much higher. Baseball is much more of a social event than other sports, so the Gastown location and the stadium itself would cater to that.

2. Local talent - BC has the ability to produce MVP quality baseball players and could easily have a team roster with multiple local players. This would make a huge difference in drawing interest from fans. Something the Grizzlies could not do.

3. International talent - South Korea and Japan supply high caliber players to MLB and would be sure to attract some interest from our large Asian population. Baseball is fairly new in China, but is growing at a rapid rate, just like everything in China. It won't be long before China has players in MLB. If MLB wants to tap a mega market like China, Vancouver is the best place to do it.

4. Population - There would be a sizable population on the doorstep of Gastown Park. DT Vancouver has 90 000 people who live in the DT peninsula, making it the most densely populated 2 square miles outside of New York. As well as the dense surrounding neighborhoods - Kits, Mt. Pleasant, Commercial Drive, etc. A lot will come just for the social aspect, scenery and atmosphere.
Other U.S. cities don't even come close to matching that kind of population base so close to the stadium.

5. Stadium financing - A 20 000 seat stadium could be built to accommodate a triple A team, and then have it expandable to major league standards when the time is right, making building and financing the stadium much easier.

6. Solid ownership - Not sure who would be interested in bringing MLB to Vancouver, maybe Aquilini? Once we've established ourselves as the best franchise in Minor League Baseball, somebody would step up.

Now onto naming the team...

[Hot Rod]

I would think Vancouver should shoot for 40,000 from the start. If you're going to do it, then do it right the first time (and not this expansion crap, anymore).

[Hot Rod]

one question though, could BC Place be configured for baseball?

If it could, WOW - just think of how much cheaper that would be and seating would definitely be in line with MLB expectations.

In a perfect world, I really wish Vancouver could get the NBA back first (with Alquini as the owner) in GM Place, co-mingling with the Canucks and Vancouver being the NBA gateway to China (that TO is to Europe). THEN, if the stadium could be fitted for it and if Alquini formed a major league conglomerate of sorts - go get a MLB team (again, to become Western Canada's/Asia's MLB team/connector).

I totally agree Vancouver has the population but there would really need to be some consideration about the stadium (particularly since MLB coinsides with CFL season). If there is a way to easily do it in BC Place - omg, it is as good as a done deal imo. But get the NBA first, since it is most likely the easiest.

CFL, NHL, MLS, NBA, and MLB; a nice resume for Vancouver for major league teams.

[invisibleairwaves]

Good grief, the rose-coloured goggles in this thread. Even the Canucks have had attendance issues in the past ("$0.25 and a payphone to move this team"), and that was with a shiny new downtown arena. It's nuts to think that anyone would be willing to risk the kind of money required to bring an MLB team here, let alone an MLB AND an NBA team. Vancouver simply does not have the population for that, and that fact should be obvious considering Toronto is a small market in both leagues, even with the Leafs having an extended playoff drought. And Montreal doesn't have a team in either league.

I think people are getting a somewhat deceived by the fact that the Lions and Canucks are both championship-contending teams right now and are reaping the benefits in attendance, and that's leading people to believe we're a much bigger sports market than we really are long-term. If those teams stop being successful on the ice and field, or the Canadian dollar tanks again, it's a totally different story. It just doesn't make sense to get anyone's hopes up for an MLB team here.

[Prometheus]

It's nuts to think that anyone would be willing to risk the kind of money required to bring an MLB team here... Vancouver simply does not have the population for that...

Really?

Let's have a look at the facts: Vancouver has a larger metro population than Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Cleavland, Kansas City and Milwaukee. Moreover, Vancouver is statistically tied with Denver and projected to overtake Baltimore and St. Petersburg in a few years.

So, in terms of metro population, Vancouver is already (or inevitably) superior to eight cities that currently have MLB. Some of those cities currently have MLB, NHL and NBA, and at least one of those cities (i.e., Denver, whose population is statistically identical to Vancouver's) currently has MLB, NHL, NBA, MLS and NFL too!

Thus, as you ought to be able to see, your assertion is unequivocally contradicted by the facts.

[phesto]

^Yes, in terms of gross population Vancouver would not be at the bottom of the list; we get it. I think the above poster was implying that we don't have the same demographics as those cities (ie. baseball fans).

Sitting around at a baseball stadium is near the top of the list of things to do in most of those cities you listed, but would be so far down the list for so many Vancouverites that I can't see this city supporting a full 81-game home season.

[PaperTiger]

The weird thing about baseball though, is that you don't actually need people to go to the game to keep above water. The Florida Marlins Kansas City Royals and the Oakland A’s average something like 19000 a game. They just keep their payroll low and live off the TV rights.

[Prometheus]

I think the above poster was implying that we don't have the same demographics as those cities (ie. baseball fans).

Sitting around at a baseball stadium is near the top of the list of things to do in most of those cities you listed, but would be so far down the list for so many Vancouverites that I can't see this city supporting a full 81-game home season.

That's interesting.

Do you have any evidence (empirical or otherwise) to support your beliefs about the hypothetical priorities that Vancouverites might have if Vancouver was actually a part of Major League Baseball (a far bigger league than the NHL), competing against the likes of the famed San Francisco Giants, Chicago Cubs, New York Yankees, etc.?

Clearly, baseball has a much higher level of popularity and a greater tradition in Vancouver than you seem fully cognizant of. For instance, since the 1920s, Vancouver has hosted either a high-level or major league-affiliated professional baseball team, including the current single-A team, which has been a success both on and off the field. Vancouver is also the primary fountainhead of Canadian talent in Major League Baseball. Of the current Canadian players in MLB, a plurality (if not outright majority) come from Metro Vancouver, due to its highly advanced and established youth baseball scene. In fact, in 1951, British Columbia became the first place outside of the U.S. to join Little League Baseball, and Langley has sent a team to the World Series in South Williamsport, Pennsylvania almost every year for the last decade, including this year again. Langley's Matt Lawrie caused a sensation in Toronto this year, and many thousands of Lower Mainland residents travelled 3 hours down to Seattle numerous times this season to see Lawrie and the Blue Jays play, making Safeco Field feel more like a home game for the Jays than for the Mariners. The popularity of a home-grown MLB star here in Vancouver (like a Steve Nash of baseball) needs no elucidation.

A person who cannot imagine that baseball is popular enough in Metro Vancouver for MLB is someone who has failed to make himself fully aware of the culture and history of his own city.

[c@taract_soulj@h]

Vancouver has the population, that's not an issue...you can even include a few Washingtonians who've given up on the Mariners lol.

It's more of an interest issue though and if they'd support the team enough to keep the better half of BC Place full. Lots of good local talent and even from the WBL and PCL etc would make for great prospects. It'd be a decent shot in the dark anyways to "try" a team in Vancouver but if not, they might have to start knocking on the door of maybe somewhere in Tennessee.

Oh snap...I just noticed now that the above alternative just referenced the Grizzlies :D

Van is North American as much as any other city so I don't see why not it'd work but I've always just had in my head since the Expos left that Toronto will still be the only Canadian city to ever have a team. Montreal will never see baseball again but I do miss having the Expos play. But give it a shot BC! I think it'd make for a great rivalry

[phesto]

That's interesting.

Do you have any evidence (empirical or otherwise) to support your beliefs about the hypothetical priorities that Vancouverites might have if Vancouver was actually a part of Major League Baseball (a far bigger league than the NHL), competing against the likes of the famed San Francisco Giants, Chicago Cubs, New York Yankees, etc.?

Clearly, baseball has a much higher level of popularity and a greater tradition in Vancouver than you seem fully cognizant of. For instance, since the 1920s, Vancouver has hosted either a high-level or major league-affiliated professional baseball team, including the current single-A team, which has been a success both on and off the field. Vancouver is also the primary fountainhead of Canadian talent in Major League Baseball. Of the current Canadian players in MLB, a plurality (if not outright majority) come from Metro Vancouver, due to its highly advanced and established youth baseball scene. In fact, in 1951, British Columbia became the first place outside of the U.S. to join Little League Baseball, and Langley has sent a team to the World Series in South Williamsport, Pennsylvania almost every year for the last decade, including this year again. Langley's Matt Lawrie caused a sensation in Toronto this year, and many thousands of Lower Mainland residents travelled 3 hours down to Seattle numerous times this season to see Lawrie and the Blue Jays play, making Safeco Field feel more like a home game for the Jays than for the Mariners. The popularity of a home-grown MLB star here in Vancouver (like a Steve Nash of baseball) needs no elucidation.

A person who cannot imagine that baseball is popular enough in Metro Vancouver for MLB is someone who has failed to make himself fully aware of the culture and history of his own city.

We can argue all day about how popular baseball actually is in Vancouver. At the end of the day, if a person or group wants to bring MLB to Vancouver, they will need to make a business case based on facts to prove there is demand here, and for a variety of reasons that both myself and others have touched upon, I don't see it happening in the foreseeable future. But that's just my opinion as an avid baseball fan and long-time Vancouver resident.

I think the biggest thing that could improve our chances are the return of AAA baseball (which sounds like it might happen sooner than later) and consistent attendance.

[logan5]

Good grief, the rose-coloured goggles in this thread. Even the Canucks have had attendance issues in the past ("$0.25 and a payphone to move this team"), and that was with a shiny new downtown arena. It's nuts to think that anyone would be willing to risk the kind of money required to bring an MLB team here, let alone an MLB AND an NBA team. Vancouver simply does not have the population for that, and that fact should be obvious considering Toronto is a small market in both leagues, even with the Leafs having an extended playoff drought. And Montreal doesn't have a team in either league.


Your Canucks history is a little off, but whatever.

Toronto ranks as the 4th largest sports market in N.A. using the same metropolitan measuring standards that U.S. cities use. The problem with the Blue Jays is the horrible stadium they play in. While other cities have moved on from multi-purpose stadiums to purpose built baseball parks, Toronto is stuck with the soulless, sterile monstrosity that is Rogers Centre.

The character and ambiance of these new parks in itself is enough to draw a significant number of fans. The overall experience of going to a baseball game in much smaller cities like Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Seattle, etc, is far superior to anything mighty Toronto can offer. Right now Toronto is just going through the motions of being a MLB city. The keys to success for these new ballparks is to stay away from multi-purpose stadiums in suburban surroundings as it once was, and return to an urban environment and provide a spectacular setting to maximize the overall baseball experience.

As good as some of these new ball parks are, a waterfront baseball park at Gastown would be even better. No other city could provide a more spectacular back drop that Vancouver could, with the water and very prominent North Shore mountains. And the urban setting, with historic Gastown and the densely populated downtown peninsula, would be second to none.

I don't think there would be any argument that Vancouver could provide a first class baseball experience, but do we have the population and demand. Using the single A Vancouver Canadians as an example, they averaged 4200 fans per game at a stadium that is run down and in the middle of a low density residential neighborhood. Still the ambiance and social aspect of baseball was enough to draw good crowds for a team that very few would know much about. To put in perspective, the Vancouver Giants (major junior) draw an average of 7000/game (5th best in Canada).

And I don't think Vancouver is as small as some might think. St.Louis, which has 3 pro teams, has the 18th largest metropolitan population in the U.S. at 2.8 million over an area of 8 000 sq. miles. The lower Mainland, which has about 1/6 the area of Metro St. Louis, has 2.7 million people.

I know I'm repeating myself, but besides providing a great baseball park, the Gastown Park would be a great venue for concerts and other events. An all round great cultural amenity that Vancouver needs (see no fun zone). And it would be easier to implement than it looks if we were to phase it in starting with bringing back a Triple A franchise and then move onto the Big Show.

[Nutterbug]

So do we have room for both a soccer and a baseball stadium in Gastown?

Has the soccer stadium plan been scrapped for good, due to resistance from area NIMBY's? If so, won't the baseball stadium be met with the same problem?

[logan5]

I think the Whitecaps are stuck with BC Place., but the Waterfront stadium is just too good an idea to let go of. There's room at the east side of the site. At least build a stellar AAA park. Nimby's are turning into white noise.

[Vancity]

The Waterfront Stadium will eventually be built. I can't see the 'Caps being at BC Place forever. Most likely after their 2016 contract with BC Place is up, so I'm assuming they'll probably press and continue to work towards their own stadium between now and 2016. They've got 5 years. They have a lot of work ahead of them.

[Vancity]

Your Canucks history is a little off, but whatever.

Toronto ranks as the 4th largest sports market in N.A. using the same metropolitan measuring standards that U.S. cities use. The problem with the Blue Jays is the horrible stadium they play in. While other cities have moved on from multi-purpose stadiums to purpose built baseball parks, Toronto is stuck with the soulless, sterile monstrosity that is Rogers Centre.

The character and ambiance of these new parks in itself is enough to draw a significant number of fans. The overall experience of going to a baseball game in much smaller cities like Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Seattle, etc, is far superior to anything mighty Toronto can offer. Right now Toronto is just going through the motions of being a MLB city. The keys to success for these new ballparks is to stay away from multi-purpose stadiums in suburban surroundings as it once was, and return to an urban environment and provide a spectacular setting to maximize the overall baseball experience.

As good as some of these new ball parks are, a waterfront baseball park at Gastown would be even better. No other city could provide a more spectacular back drop that Vancouver could, with the water and very prominent North Shore mountains. And the urban setting, with historic Gastown and the densely populated downtown peninsula, would be second to none.

I don't think there would be any argument that Vancouver could provide a first class baseball experience, but do we have the population and demand. Using the single A Vancouver Canadians as an example, they averaged 4200 fans per game at a stadium that is run down and in the middle of a low density residential neighborhood. Still the ambiance and social aspect of baseball was enough to draw good crowds for a team that very few would know much about. To put in perspective, the Vancouver Giants (major junior) draw an average of 7000/game (5th best in Canada).

And I don't think Vancouver is as small as some might think. St.Louis, which has 3 pro teams, has the 18th largest metropolitan population in the U.S. at 2.8 million over an area of 8 000 sq. miles. The lower Mainland, which has about 1/6 the area of Metro St. Louis, has 2.7 million people.

I know I'm repeating myself, but besides providing a great baseball park, the Gastown Park would be a great venue for concerts and other events. An all round great cultural amenity that Vancouver needs (see no fun zone). And it would be easier to implement than it looks if we were to phase it in starting with bringing back a Triple A franchise and then move onto the Big Show.

I agree with most of what you said. I don't know if Vancouver (metro) has a large enough population for professional baseball. We may have a metro population of 2.7 mil. but many of those people are probably Canuck fans (and those tickets are not cheap by any stretch of the imagination). I'd love to see a stadium for baseball, AND for our pro soccer team (the 'caps) - but realistically, I just cannot see it going through unless it's through private money, and even then, it's going to be very difficult. The Whitecaps are finding that out now.

Having Triple A ball in this city would be wonderful. That may be a stepping stone for Major League Baseball one day, should the city draw and sell out in their Triple A stadium (where ever that's going to be, they certainly cannot continue to be at the Nat if they want to pursue Triple A ball).

[Prometheus]

I don't know if Vancouver (metro) has a large enough population for professional baseball. We may have a metro population of 2.7 mil. but many of those people are probably Canuck fans...

This issue has already been laid to rest. Vancouver has a metro population that is greater than (or equal to) eight cities that currently have MLB. Moreover, many of those cities also have NBA, NHL and/or NFL.

Denver, for example, has a metro population of about 2.5 million. How many of those people do you suppose are Colorado Avalanche fans (NHL), Denver Nuggets fans (NBA), Colorado Rapids fans (MLS), Tim Tebow and Denver Broncos fans (NFL)? Quite a few, and yet Denver is perfectly capable of supporting them all in addition to the Colorado Rockies (MLB).

The population of Metro Vancouver is not an issue. The Canucks would still be able to survive if the much bigger show (MLB) were to come to town.

[WarrenC12]

How about seeing if the Vancouver Canadians can survive again at the AAA level first? :cheers:

[jlousa]

At the end of th day it doesn't matter if any of us think Vancouver could support it or not, what matters is there doesn't appear to be anyone with the money needed to make it happen, that beleives it.

I don't care for the NBA either but feel it would be a better fit as a arena and possible ownership group exist. If someone pops up with a desire to do an MLB team here it'll be great, I do think Triple-A ball is likely in our future though.

[Prometheus]

How about seeing if the Vancouver Canadians can survive again at the AAA level first? :cheers:

Sure, but we will not learn anything that we do not already know: High-level professional baseball has not only survived but flourished in Vancouver since the 1920s, including the Triple-A Vancouver Canadians for 22-straight seasons, from 1978 to 1999.

After winning the Triple-A World Series in 1999, the Vancouver Canadians were moved to Sacremento because the new ownership had a brand-new, $42 million, 14-thousand seat stadium waiting for the team, not because there was any lack of support in Vancouver.

Despite now being Single-A, professional baseball continues to flourish in Vancouver. This year, the current Vancouver Canadians had an attendance of over 162,000 (the second highest in the league) and won the Northwest League Championship title.

[trofirhen]

..... The lower Mainland, which has about 1/6 the area of Metro St. Louis, has 2.7 million people.




Denver, for example, has a metro population of about 2.5 million.

:previous::previous:

Not to contradict, but are you sure those city population figures are correct. According to what I looked up, Vancouver in 2010 had only 2,116,581 people.

Denver seems accurate, (although I had thought it a little bigger)

{dunno if this has any impact on sports teams coming here, though}

[phesto]

Sure, but we will not learn anything that we do not already know: High-level professional baseball has not only survived but flourished in Vancouver since the 1920s, including the Triple-A Vancouver Canadians for 22-straight seasons, from 1978 to 1999.

After winning the Triple-A World Series in 1999, the Vancouver Canadians were moved to Sacremento because the new ownership had a brand-new, $42 million, 14-thousand seat stadium waiting for the team, not because there was any lack of support in Vancouver.

Despite now being Single-A, professional baseball continues to flourish in Vancouver. The current Vancouver Canadians had an attendance of over 162,000 (the second highest in the league) and won the Northwest League Championship title.

Vancouver has a vastly higher population than any other city in the Northwest league, so by your logic, we should blow every other city out of the water in terms of attendance since we have so much demand for baseball here (yet we are still #2 behind Spokane, a city a quarter our size).

The move to AAA is not an easy one. Beside from some logistical/affiliate issues, it involves twice the capacity, and twice the number of games; including games right at the beginning of April when it is still cold and wet.

Personally I'm looking forward to seeing AAA baseball back in Vancouver in April, May and September, but it becomes more challenging for ticket sales due to weather and you lose a lot of the casual 'fair weather' fans during those months.

[Prometheus]

Vancouver has a vastly higher population than any other city in the Northwest league, so by your logic, we should blow every other city out of the water in terms of attendance since we have so much demand for baseball here...

You are confused. I have never (explicitly or implicitly) adopted the premise that higher population translates into higher attendance irrespective of the level of the league. Indeed, I would venture that the more cosmopolitan a city is, the more sensitive it will be to a league's prestige, and that the lower the league's prestige, the lower the likelihood that its higher population will translate neatly into higher attendance, even though the city's interest in the particular sport is strong. If Vancouver lost Single-A baseball, for example, little league attendance would not suddenly increase. A strong interest in a sport does not imply a strong interest in all levels of play.

What I have been arguing, however, is that an examination of our past and present reveals an incontrovertably strong and continued interest in professional baseball and that our metro population more than exceeds the minimum threshold required to support an MLB franchise, as a look at other similar cities with MLB teams demonstrates.

[EastVanMark]

Some really good posts on this subject.
First off, under no circumstances would any MLB team call BC Place home...EVER. That ship sailed long ago. Its more than a little troubling that some in management at Pavco don't seem to know that. For any hope of landing a team, construction of a new baseball only ballpark is a non-negotiable necessity.

As has already been pointed out, Vancouver would be a top 20 market in terms of population which would be more than enough to play host to a team. However, it can be debated just how many dedicated baseball fans reside within the market. Also, although baseball does have a lot of home games, it is also the cheapest of the major 4 sports to attend. Tickets for some outfield seats can go for as low as $13 per game. For generations in Vancouver the "Nooners at the Nat" have consistently enjoyed large crowds or sold right out for games in the middle of the work day for AAA or A baseball in a ballpark a long way from the civic core with poor access.

Also, currently we don't even have a stadium suitable for AAA baseball. A new ballpark would have to be built even for that. Perhaps one could be constructed somewhere in the downtown core to go along with the waterfront soccer stadium. (The Whitecaps can opt out of BC Place within 5 years so that is not a problem). The 2 facilities could share a parkade and could be a draw to the area that would help support surrounding businesses. They could also play host to wide variety of other events (this could solve the Symphony of Fires' long time beef about not being able to charge for viewing the fireworks show; thereby enabling the event to become a moneymaker instantly) The ballpark could be constructed with an initial capacity of 10-15,000 with room to expand to double the size for MLB. Many current ballparks are being constructed in the 32,-36,000 range. That would be a perfect size for a smaller non-traditional MLB market.

[Vancity]

I find it difficult to believe that a stadium can be built for Triple A baseball in downtown, AND also have the Whitecaps soccer stadium built as well. The 'Caps are already finding it quite difficult to build, and Kerfoot is wanting to fit the bill. Is there space for two more stadiums of significant size? What happens to BC Place? Simply have the Lions play there (doesn't justify the cost of one team...and the CFL at that, to play in a renovated stadium that cost us taxpayers a lot of $$).

I can see the 'Caps stadium eventually being built. But as for Triple A - a brand new stadium? Unless it's coming out of the current ownership of the Canadians, I can't see a baseball specific stadium being built. I'd like to see Triple A ball back in Vancouver, I just don't know if it's going to be any time soon.

[Zassk]

The False Creek Flats would be an awesome location for a baseball stadium (given the assumption that a large waterfront stadium is unaffordable). It would be well-served by transit, and the land is mostly available and clear, although perhaps not so easy to build on. I think the only chance of getting sufficient daytime attendance would be if the stadium is downtown, or next to downtown.

[Prometheus]

There is no question that the stadium would have to be right downtown. The premier, most ambitious location (the one that would instantly give Vancouver the most iconic location in all baseball) would be a waterfront stadium, built out over the water, looking North, with fans and television cameras gazing upon the majesty of the North Shore Mountains.

The next best location (and the easier, I think, to build) would be the big empty field north of the train station, with home plate looking directly northwest toward BC Place and the downtown core, its skyscrapers silhouetted against the setting summer sun.

In either case, Vancouver would become famous for having one of the most beautiful urban baseball parks in the world. That alone would create a powerful brand and be an enormous draw.

[go_leafs_go02]

There is no question that the stadium would have to be right downtown. The premier, most ambitious location (the one that would instantly give Vancouver the most iconic location in all baseball) would be a waterfront stadium, built out over the water, looking North, with fans and television cameras gazing upon the majesty of the North Shore Mountains.

The next best location (and the easier, I think, to build) would be the big empty field north of the train station, with home plate looking directly northwest toward BC Place and the downtown core, its skyscrapers silhouetted against the setting summer sun.

In either case, Vancouver would become famous for having one of the most beautiful urban baseball parks in the world. That alone would create a powerful brand and be an enormous draw.

Ballparks are not permitted to face west, due to the sunsets blinding the batters for over an hour each and every evening.

I started this thread with this image - use it for reference.



http://www.flipflopflyin.com/flipflopflyball/info-orientation.png

Another thing to realize, is that Vancouver will be the most northern MLB market, and thus, the sun in the early summer and late spring will set even further to the northwest than southern US cities, where it will set more to the west than the north. Baseball is the only north american sport that ensures its fields are constructed in a way that the sunset will always shine towards the outfield than the infield.

[Prometheus]

Ballparks are not permitted to face west, due to the sunsets blinding the batters for over an hour each and every evening.

To be precise, I did say northwest, i.e., something similar to Rogers Centre's orientation. But even if Vancouver's park had to face further north (due to its slightly more northerly latitude), an open left field would still orient perfectly towards the dowtown core, preserving the essence of the picturesque scene I mentioned.

[phesto]

Would love to see something similar to AT&T park in SF, with minimal outfield bleachers to preserve the view, and probably something around the same size of capacity (40k). Though obviously we would need some form of roof system here...

[cornholio]

Why isnt BC place a viable option? Its designed for baseball with seats being able to be removed easily. The roof is now higher and opens after the renovation.

The only problem I see is the level of the jumbotron and the color of the roof. I dont see why it should be so hard to rectify those problems if there is ever a need, certainly easier then building a new stadium in the downtown for a new and untested product. At the very least they can try getting AAA baseball in there no?

Having said that im certainly not a fan of baseball, have never gone to a game, and wouldn't be surprised if I never went to a game even if there was a MLB franchise next to my house.

[go_leafs_go02]

Why isnt BC place a viable option? Its designed for baseball with seats being able to be removed easily. The roof is now higher and opens after the renovation.

The only problem I see is the level of the jumbotron and the color of the roof. I dont see why it should be so hard to rectify those problems if there is ever a need, certainly easier then building a new stadium in the downtown for a new and untested product. At the very least they can try getting AAA baseball in there no?

Having said that im certainly not a fan of baseball, have never gone to a game, and wouldn't be surprised if I never went to a game even if there was a MLB franchise next to my house.

Because baseball stadia takes a completely different function compared to football stadiums. Part of the ballpark experience is enjoying the outdoors, being in the sunshine, having a fantastic view, and is unique compared to just about every other ballpark experience in the major leagues.

BC Place's counterpart is the Metrodome in Minny, and the Twins finally got out of that dump. I know BC place has a great renovation, but it still would be a HORRIBLE ballpark experience based on no outfield view, thousands of seats in the outfield that will always be unoccupied.

BC Place would be used on a temporary basis if a team were to come - but a new baseball-only stadium plan would need to be built.

[cornholio]

Because baseball stadia takes a completely different function compared to football stadiums. Part of the ballpark experience is enjoying the outdoors, being in the sunshine, having a fantastic view, and is unique compared to just about every other ballpark experience in the major leagues.

BC Place's counterpart is the Metrodome in Minny, and the Twins finally got out of that dump. I know BC place has a great renovation, but it still would be a HORRIBLE ballpark experience based on no outfield view, thousands of seats in the outfield that will always be unoccupied.

BC Place would be used on a temporary basis if a team were to come - but a new baseball-only stadium plan would need to be built.

Fine install the worlds largest(?) retractable projection screen in the outfield, you can have a different view every game. The technology has come along way, might sound like a pipe dream but wouldn't surprise me one bit if it was feasible and economical. We have a beautiful retrofitted stadium downtown that can accommodate a baseball field easily, before we try to build a new stadium(something that might be nearly impossible) we should try thinking outside of the box and trying to make BC place a viable option.

[crazyjoeda]

Because baseball stadia takes a completely different function compared to football stadiums. Part of the ballpark experience is enjoying the outdoors, being in the sunshine, having a fantastic view, and is unique compared to just about every other ballpark experience in the major leagues.

BC Place's counterpart is the Metrodome in Minny, and the Twins finally got out of that dump. I know BC place has a great renovation, but it still would be a HORRIBLE ballpark experience based on no outfield view, thousands of seats in the outfield that will always be unoccupied.

BC Place would be used on a temporary basis if a team were to come - but a new baseball-only stadium plan would need to be built.

If the ball park doesn't have sunshine and fantastic views what would draw fans?

I rarely ever see baseball games on TV's in Vancouver bars, and most people I know are so disinterested in baseball they wouldn't attend a game for free. Obviously I don't speak for everyone but I wouldn't go to a MLB game, and I can't imagine Vancouver ever supporting let alone getting a MLB team.

[Prometheus]

...most people I know are so disinterested in baseball they wouldn't attend a game for free. Obviously I don't speak for everyone but I wouldn't go to a MLB game, and I can't imagine Vancouver ever supporting let alone getting a MLB team.

It's obvious why you cannot imagine it. You have extrapolated from your own parochial circle and projected your preferences onto to the rest of the population, notwithstanding your claim to not speak for everyone. As a result, you have managed to remain oblivious to an aspect of Vancouver that has been explained here many times: that Vancouver has an illustrious and rich baseball tradition; that professional baseball has flourished in Vancouver for nearly one hundred years and continues to do so; that the Lower Mainland is the primary source of Canadian talent in MLB precisely because it has the most developed and competitive youth baseball scene in the country; and that Metro Vancouver's population is superior to the metro population of many cities that currently support MLB.

A more informed, less insular analysis reveals that Vancouver meets the basic cultural criteria for an MLB city.

[mrjauk]

It's obvious why you cannot imagine it. You have extrapolated from your own parochial circle and projected your preferences onto to the rest of the population, notwithstanding your claim to not speak for everyone. As a result, you have managed to remain oblivious to an aspect of Vancouver that has been explained here many times: that Vancouver has an illustrious and rich baseball tradition; that professional baseball has flourished in Vancouver for nearly one hundred years and continues to do so; that the Lower Mainland is the primary source of Canadian talent in MLB precisely because it has the most developed and competitive youth baseball scene in the country; and that Metro Vancouver's population is superior to the metro population of many cities that currently support MLB.

A more informed, less insular analysis reveals that Vancouver meets the basic cultural criteria for an MLB city.

Like you, Prometheus, (and unlike some of the posters here), I am a huge, and informed baseball fan. I was on a Little League team that was but a wild pitch (in extra innings no less!!) away from representing Canada in Williamsport. I can to this day rattle off at least 7 of the starters on the 1981 pennant-winning Montreal Expos and remember exactly where I was--my brother's wedding reception--when Joe Carter ended things in 1993 against Mitch "the Animal" Williams.

That being said, I'd have to side with those arguing against you this time. I understand that each of us tends to extrapolate from our own circumstances, but the question then becomes whose--persons like you and I or those such as crazyjoeda--perspective is more representative of the general public in Vancouver. With only anecdotal evidence to support my claim, I believe that the market simply does not exist here for an MLB team.

As for those arguing to put baseball in BC Place, I just have to shake my head. Your opinions are simply uninformed. There is a reason the building of
Camden Yards proved to be a watershed moment for MLB stadiums. The Skydome in Toronto symbolizes the swan song of a different era where multi-purpose stadiums were the rage. You wouldn't put the VSO in the Agrodome, would you?

If we ever were to get an MBL team I would support the building of an inconic ballpark where the 'Caps stadium was to have been built. (By the way, I'm very well connected into the soccer scene here in Vancouver and know that the 'Caps have every intention of being in BC Place for the long run.)

[phesto]

MLB would almost certainly require a purpose-built stadium if they ever granted expansion or relocation to Vancouver.

BC Place (with jumbotron issue resolved) might work as an interim location while a stadium is being built, but there would have to be some form of financing and approvals in place for a new stadium and location.

Even the Pacific Coast League (AAA) will require firm plans for an expanded Nat, or a new stadium before they come back to Vancouver.

[logan5]

I can see the 'Caps stadium eventually being built. But as for Triple A - a brand new stadium? Unless it's coming out of the current ownership of the Canadians, I can't see a baseball specific stadium being built. I'd like to see Triple A ball back in Vancouver, I just don't know if it's going to be any time soon.

If someone is willing to build a 70 million dollar soccer specific stadium out of their own pocket, than there would most definitely be someone out there who would build a top notch AAA park. I'm a little amazed it hasn't happened already because you can't lose. The players and coaches payroll is paid by the parent club so you, as the owner, collect all the gate receipts, concession, and team merchandise sales without having to pay players payroll. In all likelihood, a triple A team would be more profitable than the Lions and Whitecaps combined.

That being said, I'd have to side with those arguing against you this time. I understand that each of us tends to extrapolate from our own circumstances, but the question then becomes whose--persons like you and I or those such as crazyjoeda--perspective is more representative of the general public in Vancouver. With only anecdotal evidence to support my claim, I believe that the market simply does not exist here for an MLB team.

It sounds like some people think baseball is as foreign to Vancouver as hockey is to Phoenix or Miami. That is simply not the case. BC produces Canada's best baseball players by far. This means we have a great developmental baseball programs in this province and we have a lot of kids and teenagers playing baseball, so there's no doubt that we have strong baseball roots in BC. I think it would be fair to extrapolate from that fact that Vancouver has a strong fan base.

[dennis1]

For those saying Vancouver cannot support a team?

Really? 2.6 million in the lower mainland. That is not small. Plus, would vancouver be receptive to the NBA after the last debocle? I hope so.

Vancouver needs to be abitious. MLB and NBA will bring more money and advertising to the region and expose the city to large swath of the states of which some that might decide to visit?

And two teams are currently in trouble. Tampa Bay and Oakland. Maybe the A's owner considers Van City if the current situation in San Jose does not work out. Or sell to some Vancouver Billionaire like Pattinson or Brandt Louie or Galagardi's dad.

Plus in the MLB system the revenue sharing is huge. Vancouver would get a nice check every year form Boston, NY, SF, Chicago, LA, Washington, et al. Your telling with that money you can't support a team? Please.

Think about it. Think Big.

[mattykicks]

As someone who has worked with various sports teams at different levels, this topic is very intriguing.

Vancouver does have a rich baseball history, especially regarding the Canadians. But could the third largest market in Canada support professional baseball??

For any city, there are basically four keys to having a successful sports team: Strong ownership, a lucrative venue, local corporate sponsorship, solid fan support.

Strong ownership
Purchasing and owning an MLB team would cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Jim Pattison would be the only local candidate who would have enough capital to invest in a team. He would bring experience too having owned the Vancouver Blazers during their brief existence in the WHA. Other potenial ownership groups could come from major local businesses like Best Buy or Telus. However, even these corporate giants would struggle to hold solid balance sheets for a pro baseball team.

The key is having an owner who is prepared for millions of dollars in write downs, and little profit. Most baseball teams themselves lose money. It's the residual benefits owners care about (taking clients out to games in hopes of scoring that next big real estate deal.... Etc). The owner would not necessarily need to be from Vancouver, but he/she would certainly have to have a large business footprint in the lower mainland. And outside of the aformentiond possibilities, there are not many other choices.

On a scale of 1 to 10, the likelyhood of finding a good owner is 5.5.

Lucrative venue
Let's get it out of our system.... B.C place is not a long term solution. Unless it could be renovated (again) to allow for a greater outdoor view, and many more luxury suits, the house that tax dollars built will never support a major league baseball team.

A new stadium would be a must. And yes, it would need a retractable roof similiar to Safeco in Seattle. There are only so many rain delays teams can handle. Waterfront park could work if they can squeeze in atleast 43,000 seats. And funding would have to come from the private sector, as governments in both Victoria and Ottawa are no long offering cash for stadiums. Location of a new stadium is also key. Richmond, Vancouver and North Van are all good options. But where do you get the land, and for how much? If you include stadium construction, the cost could easily reach a billion dollars. A figure not many in Canada are willing to pay for a home to house a major league team.

On a scale of 1 to 10, the likelihood of a new baseball stadium is a 4.

Local corporate sponsorship
Vancouver is home to some of the most wealthiest companies in North America (Telus and Best buy just to name a few). But most of these businesses are heavily invested in the Lions and Canucks. Spreading the sponsorship dollars to a baseball team would stretch bottom-lines for most of these companies. The key would be getting sportsnet or TSN on board as sponsor, although that would certainly drive down television rights packages. There are a lot of big businesses in Vancouver, but not quite enough.

On a scale of 1 to 10, the likelyhood of good local corporate sponsorship is a 6.5

Solid fan support
Ther is no doubt Vancouver has a rich baseball history fans are proud of. But will these fans pay money to see a team 81 nights a year? It's important to note that average income levels in the lower mainland are among the highest in North America. But baseball season ticket packages are also among the most expensive.

It would be a good option for those who can't afford pricey lions or Canucks tickets. And the population is definitely big enough. But it's asking a lot for anyone outside New West or Richmond to take the two hour drive to Vancouver almost every summer night. The season ticket base is likely to come from downtown, Richmond or Burnaby. And it's hard to say how many baseball fans reside in those areas.

On a scale of 1 to 10, the likelyhood of having good fan support is a 7.

[Metro-One]

If the ball park doesn't have sunshine and fantastic views what would draw fans?

I rarely ever see baseball games on TV's in Vancouver bars, and most people I know are so disinterested in baseball they wouldn't attend a game for free. Obviously I don't speak for everyone but I wouldn't go to a MLB game, and I can't imagine Vancouver ever supporting let alone getting a MLB team.

I have quite the opposite experience. I know and have known many who travel to Seattle often simply to watch a baseball game.

I myself went with my wife and her friends to a game this September, and personally the price was fantastic and it was a great time! I actually enjoyed going to the baseball game more than a hockey game (hockey fans tend to be more annoying imo, i hate the smell of the artificial ice, its cold and indoors, extremely overpriced, etc...).

I would definitely love to go to an MLB game in Vancouver. Would be a great family activity.

[dennis1]

Corporate sponsership would jump from the Lions.

[phesto]

As a point of reference, Seattle, with a much larger population and over 30 years history in the big leagues, has seen a precipitous decline in both attendance and TV numbers since they moved to Safeco Field in 2000.

They are now well into the bottom third in the league in attendance, with 23,000 average last season (49% full). Obviously some of the blame comes from the poor performance of the team, but it is a longer trend that started while they were still competitive, and even Mariners management have conceded that it is increasingly tough to draw fans in April and May. Last year they were drawing as few as 10,000 to early season games.

Not trying to draw a link between Seattle and what could potentially happen in Vancouver, but it is important to acknowledge the challenge of selling upwards of 2,000,000 tickets per season in any city, regardless of population or baseball demand.

Compare selling 2,000,000 tickets and an 81 game schedule to our current sports teams (from most recent season, home games not including pre/season or playoffs):

Canucks - 41 games, 773,000
Lions - 9 games, 270,000
Whitecaps - 17 games, 363,000
Canadians - 24 games, 146,000
Giants - 35 games, 246,000

Even if you add playoff games to the above, you'd be proposing to double the amount of sports ticket sales in Vancouver; no easy feat...

[Vancity]

While I'd love a MLB team here in Van., I really can't see it happening without the city getting the NBA back. Losing the NBA hurt the image of this city (yes, even with the 2010 Winter Olympics here) as a city that is able to hold onto it's major sports franchises (i.e. MLB, NBA, etc). We're a hockey city - and Canucks town - first and foremost. All the cities that were mentioned that Vancouver is in size with (population wise), or will overtake (such as Baltimore, etc) - we do have to remember that those are american cities. They love baseball. Baseball to Americans, is like Hockey to Canadians. It's their national pastime, and people love it, much like Canadians just simply love hockey. Baseball (at least to my knowledge) is not a Vancouver pastime, although the sport/game has been around in minor league levels for a long, long time.

If baseball needs Vancouver, then I'm surprised that nobody has stepped up to the plate, and has actually said that it's worth the time, money and investment in building a world class ball park, and moving (or starting from scratch) a franchise here.

Like one poster said. The NBA is more realistic, but even that's going to be a while until it comes to fruition (and I believe the NBA will be back...when, who knows - probably once Stern retires).

one league at a time. the NHL has been here for roughly 40 years. We JUST got a MLS franchise, and the CFL has been here forever (not forever, kidding, but a long time). Out of those three franchises, the CFL has won multiple Grey Cups (good on them), but the Canucks haven't - yet. Once the fans are even more entrenched with the 'Nucks, and also the 'Caps, I think you'll see someone make a move for the NBA (whether that be Aquilini, or him and several other billionares, don't know) and bring a franchise back to Van.

MLB may happen down the road as well, and maybe even under Aquilini's ownership (since he is the most logical person) - but it wouldn't be for a long, long, long time.

[logan5]

As a point of reference, Seattle, with a much larger population and over 30 years history in the big leagues, has seen a precipitous decline in both attendance and TV numbers since they moved to Safeco Field in 2000.


I realize this subject has ran its course for now but I have to respond to this because it is completely false. For many years in the Kingdome, the Mariners ranked last or second to last in American League attendance. In their 12th year at Safeco Field the Mariners ranked 8 of 12 in the AL in attendance with 23 411/game. In their 12th year at the Kingdome they averaged 12 000/game and dead last in attendance. Even in their 2nd year at the brand new Kingdome they averaged only 10 800. A big part of the baseball product is the stadium and Safeco has definitely improved the product for a perennial loser.

Another point of reference is Milwaukee, which has MLB and NBA, as well as minor league teams, has averaged around 36 000 fans/game in the last 5 years. Milwaukee's CSA population is 1.75 million, nearly a million less than the Lower Mainland.

One other point. MLB would fill the gap nicely between hockey seasons, whereas the NBA would compete head to head with the Canucks. I think this is why the NBA and MLB work in such a small market like Milwaukee. The sports entertainment dollar is spread evenly throughout the year, making it easier to attract fans to both franchises.

[dennis1]

While I'd love a MLB team here in Van., I really can't see it happening without the city getting the NBA back. Losing the NBA hurt the image of this city (yes, even with the 2010 Winter Olympics here) as a city that is able to hold onto it's major sports franchises (i.e. MLB, NBA, etc). We're a hockey city - and Canucks town - first and foremost. All the cities that were mentioned that Vancouver is in size with (population wise), or will overtake (such as Baltimore, etc) - we do have to remember that those are american cities. They love baseball. Baseball to Americans, is like Hockey to Canadians. It's their national pastime, and people love it, much like Canadians just simply love hockey. Baseball (at least to my knowledge) is not a Vancouver pastime, although the sport/game has been around in minor league levels for a long, long time.

If baseball needs Vancouver, then I'm surprised that nobody has stepped up to the plate, and has actually said that it's worth the time, money and investment in building a world class ball park, and moving (or starting from scratch) a franchise here.

Like one poster said. The NBA is more realistic, but even that's going to be a while until it comes to fruition (and I believe the NBA will be back...when, who knows - probably once Stern retires).

one league at a time. the NHL has been here for roughly 40 years. We JUST got a MLS franchise, and the CFL has been here forever (not forever, kidding, but a long time). Out of those three franchises, the CFL has won multiple Grey Cups (good on them), but the Canucks haven't - yet. Once the fans are even more entrenched with the 'Nucks, and also the 'Caps, I think you'll see someone make a move for the NBA (whether that be Aquilini, or him and several other billionares, don't know) and bring a franchise back to Van.

MLB may happen down the road as well, and maybe even under Aquilini's ownership (since he is the most logical person) - but it wouldn't be for a long, long, long time.

Well no one has mentioned it to selig so how they act on it? Plus I don't think it is dependent on the Canucks winning. In fact, the Canucks will be forced to compete if those other franchises come here and if they keep not winning they will stop being number one. All towns want winning franchises despite what anybody says.

[dennis1]

I realize this subject has ran its course for now but I have to respond to this because it is completely false. For many years in the Kingdome, the Mariners ranked last or second to last in American League attendance. In their 12th year at Safeco Field the Mariners ranked 8 of 12 in the AL in attendance with 23 411/game. In their 12th year at the Kingdome they averaged 12 000/game and dead last in attendance. Even in their 2nd year at the brand new Kingdome they averaged only 10 800. A big part of the baseball product is the stadium and Safeco has definitely improved the product for a perennial loser.

Another point of reference is Milwaukee, which has MLB and NBA, as well as minor league teams, has averaged around 36 000 fans/game in the last 5 years. Milwaukee's CSA population is 1.75 million, nearly a million less than the Lower Mainland.

One other point. MLB would fill the gap nicely between hockey seasons, whereas the NBA would compete head to head with the Canucks. I think this is why the NBA and MLB work in such a small market like Milwaukee. The sports entertainment dollar is spread evenly throughout the year, making it easier to attract fans to both franchises.

The NBA and NHL will have different fans.