[dennis1]

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/09/24/the-most-corrupt-province/

Have at it.

Rogers also say sorry
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/rogers-expresses-regret-over-macleans-quebec-cover/article1735380/comments/

[dennis1]

Nothing eh? This was big last week.

[eternallyme]

I personally believe it is true, although corruption is by no means limited to Quebec, there is something there that seems to create much greater than anywhere else in Canada.

[vid]

Do they offer suggestions on how to reduce corruption, or just say "they're corrupt, here's why, poutine is gross"?

Andrew Coyne and Chantel Hebert got into a pretty heated argument on At Issue on Thursday. It was quite entertaining.

[dennis1]

Do they offer suggestions on how to reduce corruption, or just say "they're corrupt, here's why, poutine is gross"?

Andrew Coyne and Chantel Hebert got into a pretty heated argument on At Issue on Thursday. It was quite entertaining.

Basically its that. And the comments are funny as hell.

[habfanman]

Do they offer suggestions on how to reduce corruption, or just say "they're corrupt, here's why, poutine is gross"?

Andrew Coyne and Chantel Hebert got into a pretty heated argument on At Issue on Thursday. It was quite entertaining.

That was brilliant! She called him out in her editorial and they were just itching for that encounter.

They don't like each other.

[vid]

They don't like each other.

I've noticed. :D

[MolsonExport]

Bunch of crap. But then, it is that piece of used toilet paper, Macleans. Comes with Mark shitStain.


Ahh, some garbage just for the damned peckerwood rednecks: See? Whad'I tell ya? And they take our Money!!

[Acajack]

I was beginning to wonder when this one would show up. I actually thought of posting it myself but didn't want to be accused of stoking the fire.

[Acajack]

Do they offer suggestions on how to reduce corruption, or just say "they're corrupt, here's why, poutine is gross"?

Andrew Coyne and Chantel Hebert got into a pretty heated argument on At Issue on Thursday. It was quite entertaining.

Let's just say that Andrew Coyne is not exactly the biggest fan of Quebec and francophones in general. It didn't surprise me at all that Maclean's put this out under his direction.

[Acajack]

I personally believe it is true, although corruption is by no means limited to Quebec, there is something there that seems to create much greater than anywhere else in Canada.

Well, one factor is that Quebec journalists are feistier and better at pulling this stuff up from under the rug than their counterparts in the rest of the country.

Also, there is something about Quebec culture (that it has in common with France) in that people here like to drag things out into the open (even the unpleasant stuff) and discuss the hell out of them until they are blue in the face.

[mr.John]

I was in total shock when I heard about this article,I thought Maccrap went out of business 20 years ago...is the Toronto mop and pail still publishing?

[Gerrard]

Oh I don't think it's the most corrupt by a long shot. All you need to do is follow the money and you'll find corruption. I'm certain a province like Ontario (where banking and business is centered -not to mention the nation's capital) is certainly more corrupt but perhaps better at hiding it. Not to mention Alberta and all oil business.


Behind wads of money you'll always find corruption. But people tend to focus less on the white collar sort of crime than anything that looks on the surface dirty and or mob related.

[niwell]

Andrew Coyne stole some of my friends beer at a party (seriously, this happened). Apparently he is personally unpleasant.

Anyway, the inevitable devolution of this thread should be rather amusing. Quebec may in fact be the most corrupt Province, though I don't intend to pass judgement on this point. However even if so this really needs to be taken with a grain of salt - corruption of Canada in a global context is probably pretty negligable. Just saying.

[Coldrsx]

Qu'elle surprise...

[dennis1]

Andrew Coyne stole some of my friends beer at a party (seriously, this happened). Apparently he is personally unpleasant.

Anyway, the inevitable devolution of this thread should be rather amusing. Quebec may in fact be the most corrupt Province, though I don't intend to pass judgement on this point. However even if so this really needs to be taken with a grain of salt - corruption of Canada in a global context is probably pretty negligable. Just saying.

On top of that, they act like quebec is some region of africa....

[Acajack]

On top of that, they act like quebec is some region of africa....

Funny you should mention Africa. Much of the finger-pointing media coverage of Quebec actually sounds like a page taken from the book "The Colonizer and the Colonized", written by Albert Memmi 60 or so years ago.

Basically, the use of propaganda to convince that the natives are unfit to govern themselves...

In the case of Canada/Quebec, it is used in the no-holds-barred battle against the sovereignty movement, and also (perhaps most significantly) in opposing any changes to the current federal/provincial division of powers (à la Meech) that would give more autonomy to the provincial government of Quebec. Because, as we all know, since the natives "can't be trusted to govern themselves", we can't possibly give them any more responsibility than they already have (which is probably already too much).

Just read Maclean's (and a host of others) and you'll find all the proof you need.

[dennis1]

That is very sad IMO. Anything to prevent separation?

[Acajack]

That is very sad IMO. Anything to prevent separation?

The end justifies the means I suppose.

Of course, this is just my reading of the whole phenomenon.

Others may disagree with me. They usually do so quite bitterly and vitriolically. And will likely dispute that there is any "phenomenon" at play to begin with.

[dennis1]

Ha. Probabaly because they don't want to admit the truth.

[Acajack]

Ha. Probabaly because they don't want to admit the truth.

Well, I don't wanna blame just one side.

But certainly it is obvious that the "rest of Canada" and Quebec have some significant "issues" in their relationship.

Anyone who disputes that fact has blinders on.

[Stingray2004]

Opinion polls are considered the highest coin in the realm and Angus Reid Strategies has just released an opinion poll over this issue:

55 per cent of Canadians are worried about corruption in their province. The areas registering the highest level of concern are Quebec (68%), British Columbia (61%), and Ontario (56%).

Almost half of respondents in the Atlantic Provinces (46%) also worry about corruption, and about a third in Alberta (37%) and Manitoba and Saskatchewan (33%) feel the same way.

Half of Canadians (49%) describe politicians in Quebec as “very unethical” or “moderately unethical”—ranking them as the worst in the country in this indicator. Politicians in Ontario are next on the list with 36 per cent, followed by politicians in British Columbian (29%) and politicians in Alberta (28%).


http://www.visioncritical.com/blog/in-canada-people-in-bc-and-quebec-are-more-concerned-about-corruption/

[Acajack]

Opinion polls are considered the highest coin in the realm and Angus Reid Strategies has just released an opinion poll over this issue:






http://www.visioncritical.com/blog/in-canada-people-in-bc-and-quebec-are-more-concerned-about-corruption/

I don't know that polls are the highest coin in the realm but thanks for posting it. It was very interesting.

[dleung]

I can't believe McLeans had to apologize for stating the truth. Other provinces aren't perfect, but there's a difference between say, jumping on the HST bandwagon at the last minute; and having mafia-controlled public contracts that drive road construction prices to 37% above the norm.

[Acajack]

I can't believe McLeans had to apologize for stating the truth. Other provinces aren't perfect, but there's a difference between say, jumping on the HST bandwagon at the last minute; and having mafia-controlled public contracts that drive road construction prices to 37% above the norm.

If you think that the most corrupt thing that happens in the provinces other than Quebec is implementing the HST at the last minute, then well, as Céline Dion would say, you've been seriously... misled.

[someone123]

The most popular definition of "truth" in journalism seems to be "whatever I like to hear".

Ostensibly Macleans exists to report the news. This means writing about things that happen and making it clear where the information came from. The subjective, unverifiable claims shakily balanced on top of the reporting are not news and are not something you see in credible publications. In the case of Macleans it's particularly sad and blatant because they obviously have issues with Quebec.

I also find the polls kind of lame since they are mostly about provincial governments and yet four provinces are lumped together. Quebec is "whining corrupt Frenchies" [who ask for too much and consequently should be ignored] and Atlantic Canada isn't a real, modern part of Canada [nobody lives out there, so really we can just forget about everything east of Ontario - even though, umm.. a third of Canadians live there].

[240glt]

I can't believe McLeans had to apologize for stating the truth. Other provinces aren't perfect, but there's a difference between say, jumping on the HST bandwagon at the last minute; and having mafia-controlled public contracts that drive road construction prices to 37% above the norm.

How about the false creek real estate deal that made some politicians and real estate developers very rich ?

Sometimes the end does justify the means, but there is shadyness everywhere. I suspect the Edmonton municipal lands redevelopment will have at least some back room dealings in getting the development done.

[freeweed]

In the case of Canada/*any province*, it is used in the no-holds-barred battle to strengthen federalism, and also (perhaps most significantly) in opposing any changes to the current federal/provincial division of powers (à la Meech) that would give more autonomy to the provincial governments.

Fixed that for ya. Federal encroachment on provincial powers has been ongoing for decades in this country. Take it from an Albertan, it's all people talk about here some days.

[dleung]

The most popular definition of "truth" in journalism seems to be "whatever I like to hear".

Either way you spin it, where there's smoke, there's usually fire. And honestly, has anyone on these forums ever reacted in any way besides hostility to an unflattering report about their city/province/etc? This was just way too predictable.


And obviously, no one bothered to actually dispute the facts in Maclean's article

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/technology/Quebec+corruption+controversy+hurts+because+true/3617502/story.html#ixzz11QqOHyxh

[dennis1]

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/09/24/what-lies-beneath-quebecs-scandals/

Coyne gets a couple shots in.

[vid]

Oh I don't think it's the most corrupt by a long shot.

Exactly. It simply has the most interesting corruption. I mean honestly, the Liberals awarding contracts for an electronic health record system to a company with ties to them is pretty bad, but does anyone even remember it now? Nope. It was only a year ago, too! I bet by the next election the HST won't even be a big issue anymore.

Actually I think part of it might be that Quebec's parliament has more eyes on it than Ontario's. The Ontario Legislature is really quite an afterthought in our media. People focus on the federal level (more coverage in national media) and the local level (closer to them). Quebecers probably focus the most on their provincial government because they're more eager for it to be more powerful, while the rest of the provinces grumble about having their rights taken away but don't seem to care enough to actually do anything about it. (And much of the federal parliament is made up of former provincial government members, so...)

In English Canada, there just isn't as much of a demand to hold the provincial governments as accountable as Quebecers have for their government. I bet if people in Ontario did really take a look into what the government was doing we could beat Quebec in the corruption department. I've actually heard some pretty crazy accusations about the LHINs and Ring of Fire co-ordinator, and people are always whining about the hydro companies but no one really does any investigations into them. There doesn't seem to be as much demand for investigative journalism at the provincial level outside of Quebec.

[MolsonExport]

Every 6-12 months, CrapLeans puts this crap up the flagpole.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2OGCKoTykxw/SuxttshLl3I/AAAAAAAABNg/FOr1gnOuz8M/s400/Macleans_-_Montreal_is_a_corrupt.png
Andrew Coyne's bathroom


Aside from Paul Wells' columns, the magazine is used toilet paper. A tabloid, not much better than US or STAR.

[Acajack]

Every 6-12 months, CrapLeans puts this crap up the flagpole.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2OGCKoTykxw/SuxttshLl3I/AAAAAAAABNg/FOr1gnOuz8M/s400/Macleans_-_Montreal_is_a_corrupt.png
Andrew Coyne's bathroom


Aside from Paul Wells' columns, the magazine is used toilet paper. A tabloid, not much better than US or STAR.

Like most print publications these days, they are desperate to shore up their hard copy/newsstand sales figures. So they go with what has shock value in the hope that it will spur sales. (The Quebec/Bonhomme cover certainly did the trick.)

And I agree with your point about Paul Wells. A really good journalist he is.

[shreddog]

Ah, come on Quebec, you should feel honoured that Macleans has finally turned their attention to you - we don't want you to feel neglected by their "let's trash Canada campaign"!!

July 2009
http://healthhabits.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/toronto-stinks-macleans.jpg?w=485&h=647

May 2008
How B.C. became a world crime superpower (http://www.macleans.ca/canada/national/article.jsp?content=20080507_26032_26032)


^^ Hell, based on that last link, you should feel slighted as Quebec only ranks on the nation scale whereas BC ranked on the world scale!


As Acajack alluded to, the media sells copy and the best copy is usually bombastic - and not always factual.

As they say up north ... Chill ...

[Acajack]

Ah, come on Quebec, you should feel honoured that Macleans has finally turned their attention to you - we don't want you to feel neglected by their "let's trash Canada campaign"!!

July 2009
http://healthhabits.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/toronto-stinks-macleans.jpg?w=485&h=647

May 2008
How B.C. became a world crime superpower (http://www.macleans.ca/canada/national/article.jsp?content=20080507_26032_26032)


^^ Hell, based on that last link, you should feel slighted as Quebec only ranks on the nation scale whereas BC ranked on the world scale!


As Acajack alluded to, the media sells copy and the best copy is usually bombastic - and not always factual.

As they say up north ... Chill ...

It is a good point that Macleans has been shooting at anything that moves in recent years.

That said, I still do think that Quebec is a favourite, easy target of a certain segment of the English Canadian media's finger-pointing.

[MolsonExport]

Quebecers just love being told by the ROC "that's just the way things are in Quebec...no hard feelings!"

Cronyism? Scandals? Quebec's got nothing on British Columbia (I lived there for 5 years). Glen Clark? Bill Vander-Zalm? Wacky Bennett? Bill Bennett? The only honest guy was Baldcourt.

[whatnext]

Funny you should mention Africa. Much of the finger-pointing media coverage of Quebec actually sounds like a page taken from the book "The Colonizer and the Colonized", written by Albert Memmi 60 or so years ago.

Basically, the use of propaganda to convince that the natives are unfit to govern themselves...

In the case of Canada/Quebec, it is used in the no-holds-barred battle against the sovereignty movement, and also (perhaps most significantly) in opposing any changes to the current federal/provincial division of powers (à la Meech) that would give more autonomy to the provincial government of Quebec. Because, as we all know, since the natives "can't be trusted to govern themselves", we can't possibly give them any more responsibility than they already have (which is probably already too much).

Just read Maclean's (and a host of others) and you'll find all the proof you need.

A somewhat ironic post coming from Hull, oops Gatineau, which only survives off the Federal gov't teat.

[MolsonExport]

^of which Quebecers are a part of. Would it be better to have all of it in Ontario? What are you suggesting?

[Acajack]

A somewhat ironic post coming from Hull, oops Gatineau, which only survives off the Federal gov't teat.

I wasn't specifically complaining about the economic spinoffs of the federal government's presence in my region, but since you raised it:

http://www.radio-canada.ca/regions/ottawa/2009/03/24/006-contrats-federaux_n.shtml

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/le-droit/actualites/economie/200903/25/01-840104-gatineau-obtient-a-peine-1-des-contrats-federaux.php

Not sure if you can read French but the numbers are pretty clear anyway: from year to year the feds only spend between 1 and 1.5% of all the money (3 billion dollars) they spend on contracts in this region on the Gatineau side of the river. When you consider that Gatineau is about 25% of Ottawa's size, 25% of the contracts would be great, and even 10 to 15% might be more or less acceptable, but 1% is a bloody joke.

Plus, more than 50% of all those government jobs located in Gatineau are held down by people from Ontario. It is noon-hour in Gatineau right now, and if you walked down the main street in downtown Gatineau and listened to the office workers on lunch break talking amongst themselves, it would be apparent that the majority of people around you are not francophone Québécois residents of Gatineau.

Not that I am necessarily complaining about any of this, but since you brought it up...

[dennis1]

Quebecers just love being told by the ROC "that's just the way things are in Quebec...no hard feelings!"

Cronyism? Scandals? Quebec's got nothing on British Columbia (I lived there for 5 years). Glen Clark? Bill Vander-Zalm? Wacky Bennett? Bill Bennett? The only honest guy was Baldcourt.

BC is the Illinois of Canada.

[dleung]

BC is the Illinois of Canada.

Serious? BC is anarchist-central. The government is especially under the microscope... we have our media crying foul even over non-issues like "gasp, those olympic bouquets were only assembled locally!" "gasp, so-and-so got patio renovations from this donor!" A bit different from mafia rule and death threats :haha:

[240glt]

gasp, so-and-so got patio renovations from this guy

Maybe you should read a little more into the whole Glen Clark fiasco

[dleung]

Not sure about today, but it's common knowledge that BC is probably the second-most-corrupt province in the 90's. Point is, the thread and article deals with a province that hails from a different league of corruptedness, yet people are totally fine with defensive finger-pointing.

[Acajack]

Not sure about today, but it's common knowledge that BC is probably the second-most-corrupt province in the 90's. Point is, the thread and article deals with a province that hails from a different league of corruptedness, yet people are totally fine with defensive finger-pointing.

I think what people have a problem with are the insinuations from Maclean's that corruption is somehow in the "genes" of people in Quebec.

[davidivivid]

Not sure about today, but it's common knowledge that BC is probably the second-most-corrupt province in the 90's. Point is, the thread and article deals with a province that hails from a different league of corruptedness, yet people are totally fine with defensive finger-pointing.

We know very well that there is corruption in our province's politics. After all, the corruption scandals were unearthed by Quebec's medias and treated front and center relentlessly (don't talk to me about the Comission Bastarache anymore, pleeaaaaaase). However, the reason why the Maclean's article provoked so much indignation resides in its ugly depiction of all Quebecers. As Acajack mentionned, the article clearly insinuates that corruption somehow is in our genes. The author doesn't simply explain why it is corrupt but rather uses this article as an opportunity to state biased opinions on Quebec's society as a whole.

Anyway, basic journalistic standards would suggest that if the title of an article is "Quebec: The most corrupt province", then the content of the so-called article would try and support that claim. Well, neither statistics nor comparative studies were involved so one can conclude that this article lacks journalistic integrity. After all, "Quebec: corrupt politics" wouldn't have sold as much copies!

[dennis1]

http://harveyoberfeld.ca/blog/quebec-corruption-je-me-souviens/

[artvandelay]

We know very well that there is corruption in our province's politics. After all, the corruption scandals were unearthed by Quebec's medias and treated front and center relentlessly (don't talk to me about the Comission Bastarache anymore, pleeaaaaaase). However, the reason why the Maclean's article provoked so much indignation resides in its ugly depiction of all Quebecers. As Acajack mentionned, the article clearly insinuates that corruption somehow is in our genes. The author doesn't simply explain why it is corrupt but rather uses this article as an opportunity to state biased opinions on Quebec's society as a whole.

Anyway, basic journalistic standards would suggest that if the title of an article is "Quebec: The most corrupt province", then the content of the so-called article would try and support that claim. Well, neither statistics nor comparative studies were involved so one can conclude that this article lacks journalistic integrity. After all, "Quebec: corrupt politics" wouldn't have sold as much copies!

Agreed. It's well known that Quebec has always had elements of corruption, especially with mafia and union issues, but it's not news - just more of a cultural thing. I find it ridiculous that this was brought before parliament though.

Is Maclean's even relevant outside of the GTA? I can't say that I've ever bought a copy, and I only hear about it when they do those university rankings or when they run their yearly 'Quebec bashing' article

[MolsonExport]

http://harveyoberfeld.ca/blog/quebec-corruption-je-me-souviens/

Anecdotal rambings of an almost 70-something yearning for the good ol days. Kinda reminds me of my Dad, who was one of those old-stock Anglo quebeckers that somehow never learned to speak french.

[dennis1]

Anecdotal rambings of an almost 70-something yearning for the good ol days. Kinda reminds me of my Dad, who was one of those old-stock Anglo quebeckers that somehow never learned to speak french.
The sad truth.