[jlousa]

As posted last week in the general vancouver thread, it is probably a good time to give this project it's own thread. I don't notice the integration with a possible transit connection at 10th ave in the drawings though.


228-246 East Broadway & 180 Kingsway
Acton Ostry Architects Inc., on the behalf of Rize Alliance Properties Ltd., has applied to the City of Vancouver to rezone this site from C-3A (Commercial) District to a CD-1 (Comprehensive Development) District to permit development of a two-storey podium with commercial/retail/services uses on the Broadway and Kingsway frontages and artist production space at grade on East 10th Avenue at Watson Street. 5 levels of rental dwelling units (62 units) and 20 levels of market residential units (206 units) are also proposed. The proposed maximum floor space ratio (FSR) is 6.37 with a maximum building height of 245 ft.

Project Stats
http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/documents/stats.pdf

Site Plan
http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/documents/siteplan.pdf

Building Elevations
http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/documents/elevations.pdf

Building Sections
http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/documents/sections.pdf

Landscape
http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/documents/landscape.pdf

[squeezied]

Maybe the parking lot to the west of the site between Main and Watson may be the potential transit station.

[hollywoodnorth]

Maybe the parking lot to the west of the site between Main and Watson may be the potential transit station.

that's been the plan along I thought......is that parking lot not City Owned?

[invisibleairwaves]

I suppose it's unfair to expect them include a transit station in the design when the final alignment isn't even worked out, never mind the low probability of the extension actually happening in the next decade.

[officedweller]

Maybe the parking lot to the west of the site between Main and Watson may be the potential transit station.

Makes sense they could always run a passage under Watson Street or Main Street. Won't be as open as Broadway City Hall, but it would work.

[eduardo88]

This area is going to be DENSE once SkyTrain is built!

[jsbertram]

I suppose it's unfair to expect them include a transit station in the design when the final alignment isn't even worked out, never mind the low probability of the extension actually happening in the next decade.

The new development at Oak & Broadway (currently the 7/11 & Money Mart strip mall) has plans for a station connection from street level including a station elevator, even though nobody knows whether the UBC line itself (and the Oak St Station) will be on 10th Ave or Broadway. Until its needed, I suspect that space will be used as tenant storage rooms.

Same with the new condos on Broadway & Arbutus - If I was the developer, I would make provision in the basement for a connection to the future UBC line and future Arbutus line stations, and have that as part of the sales pitch. "Direct access to Downtown & UBC using the SkyTrain & you don't have to go outside to catch the train"

I wonder how many people who bought into The Hudson were swayed by its direct connection to the Expo/Millennium line Granville Station? I have one friend who would have bought there simply because there was a Tim Hortons at their doorstep.

[Architype]

This project proposal appears to be 26 floors, not 20 as listed above.

The 20 levels of market housing begin above the 6th floor.

http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/documents/sections.pdf

[jlousa]

Edited, I expect the final project to end up closer to 18 then 26.

[mr.sandbag]

hey just saw a flyer in my neighbourhood strongly against this development, they want people to come out to the tuesday apr 12 meeting at the Heritage Hall, I believe it starts at 7pm, anyways there is a website www.stopthedevelopers.wordpress.com, go check it out, they let you comment as well.

Im heading down and I think more people who see change as good and want to help shape it should try to come out as well.

[quobobo]

I just registered my support for this project on the City's website (http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/feedback.htm) and I urge other forumers to do the same.

[hollywoodnorth]

i just registered my support for this project on the city's website (http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/feedback.htm) and i urge other forumers to do the same.

done! Everyone else please do the same!

[SpongeG]

i don't live in the city of so i can't

[LeftCoaster]

Well you could always lie...

I put a quick message, mainly supporting the project. I'm not totally sold, if they are actually going to be allowed that height (which I doubt they will) they should up the design asthetics of the tower.

Love the podium though.

[trofirhen]

There are several ways it could turn out, it seems. However, if that corner is anything like I remember it, just about anything would be an improvement.

[SpongeG]

the people who are developing the rize have some store front that they are giving to local businesses to operate pop stores...

story (http://www.straight.com/article-385046/vancouver/isabelle-dunlops-spring-dresses-fill-monthlong-popup-shop-kingsway)

During the month of April, Dunlop will add pop-up shop curator to her list of current projects. Her spring 2011 collection, which she characterizes as "Twilight-meets-royal-wedding", has been chosen to share a converted warehouse space with local pop-art clothing line Hamburger Disco as part of the Rize Alliance Properties' pop-up shop initiative.

"They're giving the space free to local artists almost for the next year," Dunlop says. "I got April so I just kind of made my spring collection."

[jlousa]

The developer has responded to community pressure and reduced the building to 19 stories. I'll post the revised plans at a future date, there are some rough renders floating around but they are of poor quality. We'll see if this is the last revision, I wouldn't be surprised if there is still a little trimming and reworking to do.

Stir units were also cut from ~62 to ~20.

[officedweller]

Was the low-rise portion increased in height to shift massing around?

Seems to be following the trend - i.e. Marpole Safeway site - ask for tall, settle on medium.

[jlousa]

They reduced one floor along Kingsway and one along 10th as well, they did add an indented penthouse level along Broadway. Overall density is done from almost 6.5 to ~5.33 which is still extremely high.

[SpongeG]

it would be cool to have one very tall in that area - but only one - at least it still has some height

[officedweller]

I'm hoping for a tall streetwall flatiron building at Kingsway & Main (whenever that'll be)

[Architype]

^That would be a great & obvious location for a flatiron building. The area has to have more densely built development, and this one at 19 stories should do just fine.

[jlousa]

Here are the revised boards I had promised earlier.

Summary of changes handout
http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/documents/changes-handout.pdf

Summary of changes boards
http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/documents/changes-boards.pdf

Community Feedback
http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/documents/feedbackboards.pdf

Mount Pleasant Plan Context.
http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/documents/mpcp-boards.pdf

Think it's an improvement but I really don't like the arcade feature and feel it still needs one more revision. Getting there though.

[officedweller]

Thanks for posting.

The arcade doesn't look as bad as I thought it would, since it's 2 storeys tall. It reminds me of the Main Post Office facade.
The brick does, however, look overbearing, especially in the red colour and with the thick transfer floor immediately above the arcade.
A lighter colour brick would probably work better (to reduce the noticeability of the disproportion between the thin columns and the heavy transfer beam above) - maybe the yellow brick that was rejected for 1 Kingsway?

Even the Lee Building breaks up the massing with colour changes.
There also needs to be some sort of column capital element, otherwise it looks too utilitarian.
Either that, or if they are going for a "modern" look - try wooden laminated columns or steel columns at funky angles.

[hollywoodnorth]

bubble gum wall ....... COOOOOLLL!

[flight_from_kamakura]

damn, i just strongly oppose the reductions in height and density on this one. cut the parking down to the bone and let this one go as otherwise initially proposed, like these 'hoodlums are so shortsighted. uh, that local bar/cafe/grocery you like so much? you just reduced their potential customer base by 100 people. oh, and when you need allies on your transit push? 100 fewer people there too. oh yeah, and nice little bit of irony that you find gentrification so annoying that you're forcing the spillover demand onto further rezoning applications. brilliant calculus there mt pleasant, clever work, i tip my hat to you.

[hollywoodnorth]

I wills ay it again .... bubble gum wall ....... COOOOOLLL!

[agrant]

:previous: Sounds disgusting. Reminds me of the bottom of a table at Denny's.

At any rate, even though it seems most of the residents are asking for a lower tower, at no more than 15 to 16 stories, it's still pretty big in my books. I just hope the Broadway side remains at 8 stories or so.

[hollywoodnorth]

:previous: Sounds disgusting. Reminds me of the bottom of a table at Denny's.

At any rate, even though it seems most of the residents are asking for a lower tower, at no more than 15 to 16 stories, it's still pretty big in my books. I just hope the Broadway side remains at 8 stories or so.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gum_Wall

[agrant]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gum_WallLooks about what I thought.

I would have preferred something like this.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_padlocks Although it works best for a bridge.

[PROSTSHOCKER]

damn, i just strongly oppose the reductions in height and density on this one. cut the parking down to the bone and let this one go as otherwise initially proposed, like these 'hoodlums are so shortsighted. uh, that local bar/cafe/grocery you like so much? you just reduced their potential customer base by 100 people. oh, and when you need allies on your transit push? 100 fewer people there too. oh yeah, and nice little bit of irony that you find gentrification so annoying that you're forcing the spillover demand onto further rezoning applications. brilliant calculus there mt pleasant, clever work, i tip my hat to you.

These same people don't want a subway/skytrain yet want a street car on broadway since the B-line is overcrowded and slow despite that a street car would pretty much be just like the b-line but on rails. Pretty irritated about this too but in all honesty the only people who would show up to these things are the NIMBYs.

[quobobo]

I've been seeing posters for the "Residents Association of Mount Pleasant" (http://www.rampvancouver.com/) all over Main Street - they seem to be a one-issue organization devoted to opposing this project. They're genuinely awful (claiming that limiting housing supply will somehow keep Mount Pleasant affordable, etc) but they seem to be fairly well organized.

This project needs our support, especially from SSPers in Mount Pleasant. If you have the time, please contact city hall to express your support for the project - ironically there is a very good page (http://www.rampvancouver.com/item/21/take-action) on that site explaining exactly what you can do.

Here's the letter I sent, feel free to use it as a template:

Mayor and Council

453 West 12th Avenue
Vancouver, B.C. V5Y 1V4

RE: Rezoning Application 180 Kingsway / 228 – 246 East Broadway

I would like to express my strong support for Rize Alliance’s Rezoning Application for a proposed development at 180 Kingsway / 228 – 246 East Broadway.

Mount Pleasant is a wonderful neighbourhood with many amenities, cultural and otherwise. Unfortunately it also has very limited housing supply - I have multiple friends who would love to move here, but it is very difficult to find an affordable apartment that isn't listed on the Bedbug Registry. More housing is desperately needed in the area - blocking this project will limit the ability of the market to provide new housing supply, putting even more upward pressure on housing prices.

The development would also be highly transit-centric, as it would be close to an express bus line and four trolley buses. It would be terribly environmentally irresponsible to prohibit construction here and force people out toward the car-dependent suburbs. For these reasons I strongly urge you to allow this development and others in the neighbourhood.

Thank you very much for your time,
(name and address)

[logan5]

I remember seeing a survey from one of the meetings showing a majority of the attendees owning their property while at the same time a majority of the attendees living within a few blocks of the proposed project. This is impossible of course as it is almost all rental units in the area. So I see this as a power play by the residents in the city hall area in Mt. Pleasant. They arrogantly presume that they speak for all Mt. Pleasant residents, when in reality, most residents have no knowledge of the project, let alone the facts about the project.

[Architype]

I remember seeing a survey from one of the meetings showing a majority of the attendees owning their property while at the same time a majority of the attendees living within a few blocks of the proposed project. This is impossible of course as it is almost all rental units in the area. So I see this as a power play by the residents in the city hall area in Mt. Pleasant. They arrogantly presume that they speak for all Mt. Pleasant residents, when in reality, most residents have no knowledge of the project, let alone the facts about the project.

I would say that more than 50% of the area to the east & north of Broadway is condos, especially since quite a few former rentals have been converted. Also the area south of Broadway is mainly single family homes plus the addition of new condo buildings near Main & 12th.

[jlousa]

Unfortunately I don't support this project quite yet, it's almost there but I still feel it needs more work. I just feel the project isn't all that well thought out and being probably the marquee project for the area it's not good enough. Hopefully version 2.5 will be enough to sway myself and others on the fence, because I agree this project needs all the support it can get.

[quobobo]

Unfortunately I don't support this project quite yet, it's almost there but I still feel it needs more work. I just feel the project isn't all that well thought out and being probably the marquee project for the area it's not good enough. Hopefully version 2.5 will be enough to sway myself and others on the fence, because I agree this project needs all the support it can get.

I'm going to be chatting with someone at Rize about this project fairly soon - any issues in particular you'd like me to ask about?

Personally I'm not crazy about the amount of parking, but otherwise I'm on board.

[jlousa]

I think the new density is more suitable then the original proposal and I think the whole revised proposal is much better overall, but being perhaps the marque development for the area (at least for the immediate future) I don't think it's quite good enough. If this one another piece of infill then it would be completely acceptable.

What would I change, lover the height of the 19 storey tower at least another storey, perhaps I'd even go down 2. I do like the fact that they are doing a flat iron style building as it plays homage to Kingsway, think the massing at Broadway and Kingsway could benefit from a similar flat iron massing instead of the current street wall. So ideally I would transfer a little height from the 10th ave tower and place it on a reconfigured Broadway massing.
I'd also prefer they just provide a few extra ft of sidewalk and do away with
with the arcade entirely, there doesn't seem to be much support for it. Also unlike the Lee building this arcade won't provide any summer shade as that whole side is already shaded. The gum wall I also don't care for but I feel it probably suits the area so I'm fine with it if the locals are. Watson could be very special if we make it so, I feel this project isn't doing it's best here and instead is concentrating on 10th Ave more so.
Most of my critiques would require a major redesign though and I don't see it happening, so that said, if they were to lower the higher tower a floor or two it would be enough for me to voice modest support for it.

[Architype]

I don't think anyone posted the actual link for the development, here:

http://www.rize.ca/developments/work/kingsway-broadway

[logan5]

When I look at what's developing around Olympic Village, I see the same monotony taking shape as has taken shape in downtown Vancouver, and the area is just as cold and uninviting. The Woodwards building is 40 stories tall yet somehow seems less imposing than any 14 or 16 story condos being built around Olympic Village.

So reducing the height at 180 Kingsway really does nothing but shut out potential new residents. If the character of the building is strong then I don't think height matters.

I'm not sure what more can be done. This looks like one of the best projects being proposed in the city right now and I hope it continues at the IGA site, and the Kingsgate site, where I suspect we'll see (for the sake of my ego) a 26 or maybe even a 30 story tower go up.

[jlousa]

Have to disagree with you regarding heights, think Mt Pleasant and surrounding areas can use more density but w/o being tall. Heck an FSR of 3 is plenty dense and can be done easily in 4-6 stories and would do more then towers would to improve affordability in this city.

[LeftCoaster]

So reducing the height at 180 Kingsway really does nothing but shut out potential new residents. If the character of the building is strong then I don't think height matters.

How does it shut out potential new residents? The FSR will still be the same, the units will just be in the low rise portion of the structure not the highrise.

No developer is going to acively remove units they are allowed. They may shuffle them around but I can't imagine a scenario where a developer would underbuild a residential site intentionally.

Jlousa I dont quite understand one of your criticisims, you said you want the broadway side to have a flatiron appearance as well, which i read to mean a triangular tip, but the street does not form a triangle. Do you propose pulling the building away from Watson to form a point at Broadway and Kingsway?

Aside from that I think this project is fine, I don't mind the height at 19 stories, and I think that a change +/- 2 stories would be immaterial. If they wanted to drop a couple floors and keep the height the same, thereby increasing the ceiling height I think that could be a nice change. It seems so few buildings in Van are built without high ceilings, it could be a major selling feature.

[allan_kuan]

I like the density, but overall this project does not meet my approval. Too many art installations all over the place makes the exterior look cluttered and messy like if someone tried to mix paints by splashing a whole pile of them randomly on a wall. Perhaps the artificial graffiti and the bubble gum should be put in the art gallery, but please not on the outside of one of the gateway buildings of Mount Pleasant, even if residents approve of it. =.="

In some ways you wonder if the feedback from the residents is designed to make this project fail...? Like the Marine Gateway debacle?

Otherwise the brown brick-imitating exterior looks like it will blend in easily with the rest of the neighborhood, and that I do support. Also agree that more emphasis than usual is being placed on 10th; having said that I don't think it's too bad to have an additional shopping row around there. My other reservations regarding the cluttered exterior still stand however.

[jlousa]

Leftcoaster, yes what I'd do is create a second flat iron on the corner of Broadway and Kingsway (not at Watson) taking advantage of the angle the roads meet at.

[logan5]

How does it shut out potential new residents? The FSR will still be the same, the units will just be in the low rise portion of the structure not the highrise.


The density was reduced by 17%. I think it's time to redefine the boundaries of Downtown Vancouver to include the Metro Core, which this project falls within. The close proximity to 3 (1 future) RRT lines and 200 000 Metro Core jobs dictates higher densities.

Too many art installations all over the place makes the exterior look cluttered and messy like if someone tried to mix paints by splashing a whole pile of them randomly on a wall.

The artwork is contained to Watson St., which is basically an alley. The quality of the art is a matter of opinion of course, but the genre fits.

Also agree that more emphasis than usual is being placed on 10th

There's a lot of potential for 10th Ave. considering it's a busy cycling route. With further smart development there could be a really cool little stretch from Main St. to Prince Edward St.

[Prometheus]

The proposed arcade along Broadway is a horrible idea. That kind of arcade is a failed urban form. Recessed alcoves like that manage only to obscure and hide the retail within, alienating it from pedestrians and passers-by; create dark, hidden areas for homeless and panhandlers to loiter; eliminate useful retail floor space; and interupt a proper, appealing, engaged streetwall. Just look around the city. Almost every such arcade has low end businesses as tenants, or has commercial businesses that do not rely on or create animated pedestrian traffic. They are dead zones.

[SFUVancouver]

The arcade is only going to be half the width of the sidewalk, which itself will be dramatically widened through building setback to create a space comparable in width from storefront to curb to that of the east side of Cambie Street between 2nd Avenue and Eight Avenue. The arcade is also going to be double commercial retail height; far more lofty and deeper than the Lee building's. I was originally not keen on the arcade but I have come around to think that it could be an interesting element of the project and help break down the perception of mass for the Broadway-fronting seven storey elevation of the proposed building. I'm looking forward to seeing updated renderings when the project goes to Council some time this summer for its rezoning hearing.

[logan5]

My streak of agreeing with you ends at 1 post.

If you look at the Lee Building arcade, even though it is cramped and contained, it does have decent retail. And there are no homeless or panhandlers. In fact the one panhandler (a middle aged fat guy with a fake British accent) chooses to work on the opposite corner.

This new arcade will be much roomier and more pedestrian and retail friendly.

[Prometheus]

My streak of agreeing with you ends at 1 post.

If you look at the Lee Building arcade, even though it is cramped and contained, it does have decent retail. And there are no homeless or panhandlers. In fact the one panhandler (a middle aged fat guy with a fake British accent) chooses to work on the opposite corner.

This new arcade will be much roomier and more pedestrian and retail friendly.

I said "almost every such arcade." The fact still remains that quality retail tenants are the exception in buildings with this kind of architectural form.

And putting aside the issue of whether homeless really do tend to loiter in such places, the fact remains that such arcades unnecessarily create "cramped and contained" spaces that are not nearly as appealing, engaging, open and light as the classic streetwall which brings the retail window flush to the sidewalk. And since such arcades also unnecessarily eliminate valuable retail space, there is no rational reason to use this architectural form, when a more aesthetically pleasing, pedestrian friendly, and economically superior form exists.

[jlousa]

The density was reduced by 17%. I think it's time to redefine the boundaries of Downtown Vancouver to include the Metro Core, which this project falls within. The close proximity to 3 (1 future) RRT lines and 200 000 Metro Core jobs dictates higher densities.



Just wanted to to correct this point, the density has not been reduced by 17% as it was never approved nor was it likely to (they could've asked for an fsr of 10 and gotten 5 and one couldn't state that density was cut is half when infact it was doubled). The fact is the developer was asking for over 2.5times the current outright allowed density and in the revised proposal is still asking for over 2 times the outright allowed.

[logan5]

This site has been approved by the city for higher densities, as well as Kingsgate Mall and IGA. If the 200 or so neighborhood activists hadn't mobilized, the original proposal would have gone through as the developer offered the city a fair exchange for density in the form of STIR and artist space and a building that is, IMO, of a much higher quality that is the norm for Vancouver.

[urbandreamer]

So is this project going ahead as rendered here: http://www.rize.ca/files/kingsway-broadway/PAGE_2_-_KWY_open_house_boards_FINAL_low_res.pdf ?

Very colourful and interesting proposal for Vancouver! Any other newer renderings out there? RenderPornStar (http://twitter.com/#!/RenderPornStar) needs to be fed!

[jlousa]

A 3rd revision has been submitted to the city. Have only skimmed the proposal but it doesn't appear much changed from the 2nd revision. I noted a reduction of STIR units from 20 to 15. Density is dropped very slightly from 5.48 to 5.38FSR. Anyone else note what's been changed?
My opinion is that it just isn't there yet, although I wouldn't be surprised to see it approved in it's current state.

Acton Ostry Architects Inc. has submitted a revised application for this project, indicating the following:
-two-storey commercial podium, including artist's production space on the 10th Avenue frontage.
-241 dwelling units, including 15 units proposed under the Short Term Incentives for Rental (STIR) program.
-building heights of 5, 5, 9 and 19 storeys.
-floor space ratio (FSR) of 5.38.
-underground parking for 320 vehicles.
- increased sidewalk widths on portions of the Kingsway and 10th Avenue frontages.


Cover sheet
http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/documents/cover.pdf

Project Stats
http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/documents/statistics.pdf

Site Plan
http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/documents/siteplan_000.pdf

Grade Level
http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/documents/gradelevel.pdf

Level 3
http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/documents/level3.pdf

Level 6
http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/documents/level6.pdf

Building Elevation Drawings
http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/documents/elevations_000.pdf

Building Section Drawings
http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/documents/sections_000.pdf

[squeezied]

I didn't see a provisional space for rapid transit station. Any insight?

[racc]

I said "almost every such arcade." The fact still remains that quality retail tenants are the exception in buildings with this kind of architectural form.

And putting aside the issue of whether homeless really do tend to loiter in such places, the fact remains that such arcades unnecessarily create "cramped and contained" spaces that are not nearly as appealing, engaging, open and light as the classic streetwall which brings the retail window flush to the sidewalk. And since such arcades also unnecessarily eliminate valuable retail space, there is no rational reason to use this architectural form, when a more aesthetically pleasing, pedestrian friendly, and economically superior form exists.

There are many examples of arcades that work very well around the world. For example, at our very own Olympic Village. The arcade at the liquor store and Terra Breads is done so well, I had been there several times before I even noticed it was an arcade. It is two stories high essential and the materials are light coloured. Much better than a lot of the crappy awnings around the city that get dirty and covered with leaves and just look horrible.

All this said, I'm not convinced north facing arcades are the best idea. Not sure why they didn't put it on 10th instead.

[officedweller]

All this said, I'm not convinced north facing arcades are the best idea. Not sure why they didn't put it on 10th instead.

Is there a bus stop on Broadway there?
If so, the arcade would probably be to set back the retail frontage to provide more space for passengers to wait for the bus.

[quobobo]

There will be a city-hosted open house (http://www.gridsvancouver.com/?p=125) for this project on January 17th at the Heritage Hall. I'll be there to express my support, hope some other SSPers can make it out too.

Date: January 17, 2012
Time: 5:30 – 6:00pm (Open House), 6:00 – 8:00pm (Presentations + Discussions)
Location: Heritage Hall – 3102 Main Street

[incognism]

Haven't seen this posted...is it new?

http://blog.rize.ca/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/KWY_night.jpg

[mr.sandbag]

:previous: :haha:

i am in favor of this development however you have to chuckle at the attempt to make the low rise along Watson look smaller then the 4 story beside it.

overall it is a great addition to main street area. it's presence will be a bit bigger then shown either way can't wait for it get started.

went the last RAMP effort to influence city politicians so will try to go again to the upcoming meeting

[jsbertram]

Is there a bus stop on Broadway there?
If so, the arcade would probably be to set back the retail frontage to provide more space for passengers to wait for the bus.

I suspect the architect is borrowing the arcade idea from the Lee building across the street, although the Lee building arcade was necessary because of the quite narrow sidewalk in front of the Lee building.

Just like with the Lee Building, as long as the arcade space is kept active and busy with pedestrians and the bus stop, I wouldn't be too worried about the public space within the arcade.

[Log1988]

A revised rezoning application was submitted yesterday. The would-be artist studio space is now retail.
Source (http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway/index.htm)

[jlousa]

Doesn't appear to be much change beside that loss of artist space in exhange for a cash contribution to the city. The FSR is no 5.55 instead of 5.38.

Revised Application (January 16, 2012)
Updated January 16, 2012

The Community Amenity Contribution (CAC) for this project has been revised from an on-site amenity of artist studio production space to a cash contribution. While the form of development has not changed from the previous submission (October 2011), the floor area from the artist studio production space is now counted in the floor area calculations as commercial retail space, resulting in an increase in the floor space ratio (FSR) from 5.38 to 5.55.

In addition, the 15 for-profit rental housing units have been removed and these units are now covered under market residential housing. This change has no impact to the FSR calculations.

The revised application includes the following:

•two-storey commercial podium
•241 dwelling units
•building heights of 5, 5, 9 and 19 storeys
•floor space ratio (FSR) of 5.55
•underground parking for 320 vehicles
•increased sidewalk widths on portions of the Kingsway and 10th Avenue frontages
•a cash contribution towards off-site cultural or civic facilities, or other approved public benefit, in lieu of the originally proposed on-site artist studio production space
Revised drawings reflecting these changes will be posted when available

[quobobo]

That open house was painful - the City representatives made it clear that they wanted questions, but many people took that as an opportunity to grandstand at length.

Thankfully there were a few good questions and some supporters of the building. Apparently the city has received more positive written comments than negative ones, and the (final, I believe) public hearing will be in late February or March.

I can't wait to see this neighbourhood in 15 years or so, it's going to be amazing with this tower, a possible Kingsgate Mall redevelopment, and the Skytrain extension.

[quobobo]

Looks like the public hearing will be on Monday Feb. 27th at 7:30PM. (http://www.rampvancouver.com/item/680/public-hearing/)

I've registered to speak in support of the project (more info on exactly how to do that at the above link), and I hope other SSPers are able to do so as well. The NIMBYs will be out in force for this one.

[squeezied]

http://www.straight.com/article-611586/vancouver/ned-jacobs-say-no-rize-alliance-rezoning-kingsway-and-broadway

Lots of NIMBY talk here. Complains stemming from density and public process.

[giallo]

^Wow. Any comment, no matter how reasonable, that supports this development has a great number of dislike votes.

[Echowinds]

News comment are akin to youtube comments. They will rot your brain if you read too much of it.

Besides, the people that agree with it tends to be quiet, while the people most opposed to it will be out in force. It's quite a common phenomenon for pretty much every political decision.

There may be some reasonable criticisms of the project, but complaining about shadows (I guess downtown doesn't see the sun anymore)? The area is an important transportation crossroads (so we should put less density beside it)? The building's too dense (still in the metro core region)? Ugh.

[jlousa]

This will be this council's first big test. It'll be interesting to see how it goes next week. Think it's a given that it'll be approved, it does have staff's recommendation. I still feel that while it's a improvement over the original proposal that it wasn't quite there yet. The density is workable and even the height could be acceptable (would prefer a slight reduction) but the massing of the project is the worst offender, it's a mess imo.

[cc85]

"Ned Jacobs, an urbanist and planning critic"

What's an urbanist? Don't tell me PFTF forced CIP to change my professional standards again.

[PaperTiger]

"Ned Jacobs, an urbanist and planning critic"

What's an urbanist? Don't tell me PFTF forced CIP to change my professional standards again.

A bit off topic but, An urbanist is a general term for urban theorist, critic, planner etc. or other people concerned with urbanism.

Not all urbanist are planners and not all Professional planners are necessarily urbanists. There are many of us that work in health planning, resource planning, regional planning, that probably wouldn't be considered urbanists.

In French it is a different story as “Urbaniste” is a synonym for urban planner.

So no we won’t be OICU’s instead of MCIP’s

[wrenegade]

http://www.straight.com/article-611586/vancouver/ned-jacobs-say-no-rize-alliance-rezoning-kingsway-and-broadway

Lots of NIMBY talk here. Complains stemming from density and public process.

I have to agree with most of the article. The public process for this project has been haphazard at best, and dishonest at worst. I am not against density or height, but this is not done the right way at all. It doesn't really offer anything as far as amenities to the community, the arcade along Broadway is backwards in my opinion, and the bubble gum wall is straight up retarded. I am really disappointed in Rize, especially considering other interesting designs/buildings they have done (Rolston, the Waves in Surrey, 1st propsal of Containers).

[jlousa]

I found one of the comments spot on, the Wall proposal on E Hastings has a higher FSR but is a much better fit with it's surrounding area thanks to more modest heights.
I also found it surprising that that height is over 100% taller then the new community centre at 1 Kingsway and 22% higher then the King Edward Village tower even though it's only one storey higher (19 vs 18).

[logan5]

Ned Jacobs lives in the Little Mountain area. Is it appropriate for him to speak for the Mt. Pleasant neighborhood when he doesn't even live in it? I believe there are many like him who show up at these community meetings, which really aren't community meetings, but an anti development rally. And he talks about deceptive tactics by the developer while at the same time saying that this project has been decisively rejected by the community.

The building itself is massive, but what is the alternative if you keep the same density. A 30 story tower would certainly open up some space at ground level and let in more light, and it would not be out of place when you consider the mid rise buildings in the area, as well as towers that will be built at Kingsgate and the IGA site.

Obviously a 30 story tower isn't going to happen at this point, but IMO taller buildings should be given more consideration in the future because I don't think they're as detrimental as some make them out to be, just as more massive mid rise buildings are not as beneficial as some portray them as.

[quobobo]

It doesn't really offer anything as far as amenities to the community, the arcade along Broadway is backwards in my opinion, and the bubble gum wall is straight up retarded. I am really disappointed in Rize, especially considering other interesting designs/buildings they have done (Rolston, the Waves in Surrey, 1st propsal of Containers).

It offers a huge amount of retail space for the neighbourhood (including one space for a supermarket that will actually interface well with the street unlike the Buy-Low monstrosity that involves passing through parking lots or a mall to get to). Also ,the CAC is contributing $6.25 million to City coffers, something like $25k/unit. Whether that's spent in the community is up to the City now, and I don't think it's efficient or necessarily desirable to demand that amenity contributions are tied precisely to a development.

[flight_from_kamakura]

that's a really big cac contribution, wow. anyway, i liked the original plan with the taller tower, definitely the sort of change i'd like to see come to that corner, esp with forthcoming redevelopment of that POS mall and the ubc line. the only thing that i'm thinking of is the parking access, i don't really like how it's set up now, definitely needs to be a less obtrusive lane entry.

[Alex Mackinnon]

I found one of the comments spot on, the Wall proposal on E Hastings has a higher FSR but is a much better fit with it's surrounding area thanks to more modest heights.
I also found it surprising that that height is over 100% taller then the new community centre at 1 Kingsway and 22% higher then the King Edward Village tower even though it's only one storey higher (19 vs 18).

That proposal has one big advantage for hiding the height. It's next to a bridge, and about a ~8m high hill. Basically it's got probably 2 of the FSR below grade when you look at it from the Hastings side.

[jlousa]

Wow! looks like the developers renderings were pretty off, the city's response doesn't seem to be helping either. Take a read of the following document and compare the massings produced by the applicate, a private citizen and then the city. Seems like some of the concerns being raised do have validity.

http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20120227/documents/phea6memoFeb20.pdf

[flight_from_kamakura]

^ i hope that it comes out looking like the citizen's massings, that would be great for the area.

[officedweller]

One thing I find odd is that the context rendering does not show the MetroVista condo which is kitty corner to the site. That condo and 1 Kingsway are at least 10 storeys and provide context for the rendering. The view selected for the render should have been from the east (to show all tall buildings in the area including the Lee Building) and minimize the "downhill perspective distortion).
I think what you'd end up seeing is a podium consistent with other heights in the area, and a feature tower breaking the tabletop.

[racc]

And just who is going to be viewing it from that height? They should really be using views from various locations along streets where people, not birds will be viewing it from.

[officedweller]

Voila:


Central section:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7054/6921488573_8eb0623bc4_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/friesen/6921488573/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/friesen/6921488573/) by sacrifice333 (http://www.flickr.com/people/friesen/), on Flickr


If you're just looking at views along streets, then it wouldn't matter if there are towers at all
- the street wall would block them out (you'd have to have "towers in the park" to provide long range views)
Ever been lost in London UK because the streets are narrow and you can't see landmarks?
Take a walk along Hornby between Pacific and Drake - that's mid-rise streetwall heaven.

[dreambrother808]

It would be nice to know the actual percentage of people in the area who are against this. I used to live there and would have no issue with it whatsoever. If there is a majority neighbourhood view then fine, change it, but if once again we just have a vocal minority posing as the majority...

I realize we can't have referendums on every minor community issue but can't the city have some kind of random polling done?

[Vonny]

Wow! looks like the developers renderings were pretty off, the city's response doesn't seem to be helping either. Take a read of the following document and compare the massings produced by the applicate, a private citizen and then the city. Seems like some of the concerns being raised do have validity.

http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20120227/documents/phea6memoFeb20.pdf

yes, it is, and it is very unfortunate that the developers, and in fact all the people in the business don't seem to use new rendering technology to improve public understanding, but to better deceive it, and it is time to put a brake on that:
I hope the city council will follow action on it.

Still, I have issue with the City rendering:
the Broadway facade is 38m long and 36m height (~29 m before the recessing top levels): so it should look like a square, eventually an horizontal rectangle, but definitely not like a vertical rectangle.
Furthermore, the ratio height/width (of the street) is in the 1: the building shouldn't look outrageously higher than Broadway is wide.

here is how look the building massing
http://voony.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/rize2.png?w=500
sketchup realized from developer application here (http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/228-246ebway), sketchup source there (https://rapidshare.com/files/156939517/rize2.skp)

The Developer rendering is probably deceiving but the "Citizen" rendering is way much worse!

I agree with Racc, that what is important is view from the street.
In fact I believe that developer should provide their 3D model to the city, in a format suitable for public consumption (that is typically Sketchup), and the work done by Dleung on this forum, should be done and maintained by the city.

That could provide useful and non distorted information for the public and keep all party honest...

At the end
the height of the building (relative to street level) is 36meters, a good ration with the Broadway width (Is it 99 foot at Main or 80foot?)...basically it is standard you could see in European city, and more noticeably in Paris (where height limit is 37m ) where there is roughly a ratio height/width of 1 (not including mansard roof) , what is troublesome here is the narrow side on Broadway, making the masing not very pleasant as seen from Broadway.

Also, at this time the building is surrounded by parking lot, so look more massive, but people need to envision it with a 30 meters streetwall along Broadway

[Vonny]

It would be nice to know the actual percentage of people in the area who are against this. I used to live there and would have no issue with it whatsoever. If there is a majority neighbourhood view then fine, change it, but if once again we just have a vocal minority posing as the majority...

a post on it at:

http://citycaucus.com/2012/02/why-nimbys-could-be-calling-the-shots-on-how-vancouver-is-planned-and-built/

[Sir Conga]

Another story about the opposition from RAMP from cbc.ca. (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/02/26/bc-mount-pleasant-protest.html)

[whatnext]

It would be nice to know the actual percentage of people in the area who are against this. I used to live there and would have no issue with it whatsoever. If there is a majority neighbourhood view then fine, change it, but if once again we just have a vocal minority posing as the majority...

I realize we can't have referendums on every minor community issue but can't the city have some kind of random polling done?

Better to have the vocal, engaged minority dictate what is done rather that the apathetic majority.

[Echowinds]

It always makes more sense to try to involve the majority than to consult with an utterly polarized minority. It's actually impossible for people to be engaged with everything, so the majority will always seem apathetic when issues don't mess with their daily lives.

NIMBYs will never bother about a development 3 blocks down the road, because it doesn't affect them. The majority will only get involved when a particular issue significantly affects their daily livelihood, but fortunately Canada is a pretty darn stable country so the majority needs not to mobilize. Something of this scale - the "controversial" construction of a high rise - lies so low on most people's list that it's either "I'm ok with this" and "I am not too sure about this development".

The people that REALLY wants it to go through are only the developers and business interests involve, some figures in City Hall, and certain schools of urbanists. The only people that REALLY goes against it are these protesters and some other schools of urbanists. Most are actually in the ambivalent middle.

[red-paladin]

Sooner or later we need to bring modest midrise development to most of Kingsway and other main streets. I agree the project is not perfect, but I am incredulous at the comments that it's 'a highrise' and 'ultra-high desity' and such. Ultra high density is the Burj Khalifa. This is a mid rise. I wish people would get a grip on reality. It might be ugly to some people, it might affect the 'small town' characteristic that geezers and hipsters like. It is just a building!

[whatnext]

It always makes more sense to try to involve the majority than to consult with an utterly polarized minority. It's actually impossible for people to be engaged with everything, so the majority will always seem apathetic when issues don't mess with their daily lives.

NIMBYs will never bother about a development 3 blocks down the road, because it doesn't affect them. The majority will only get involved when a particular issue significantly affects their daily livelihood, but fortunately Canada is a pretty darn stable country so the majority needs not to mobilize. Something of this scale - the "controversial" construction of a high rise - lies so low on most people's list that it's either "I'm ok with this" and "I am not too sure about this development".

The people that REALLY wants it to go through are only the developers and business interests involve, some figures in City Hall, and certain schools of urbanists. The only people that REALLY goes against it are these protesters and some other schools of urbanists. Most are actually in the ambivalent middle.

The people that REALLY wants it to go through are only the developers and business interests involve, some figures in City Hall, and certain schools of urbanists. The only people that REALLY goes against it are the people who live in the neighbourhood.

Fixed that for you.

Quite frankly the people who live in the neighbourhood should have the right to determine what goes there. Thery're the ones who have invested their money and time to make the city livable, which civic governments love to crow about.

[mr.sandbag]

It would be nice to know the actual percentage of people in the area who are against this. I used to live there and would have no issue with it whatsoever. If there is a majority neighbourhood view then fine, change it, but if once again we just have a vocal minority posing as the majority...

I realize we can't have referendums on every minor community issue but can't the city have some kind of random polling done?

I went the last major ramp meeting during the civic election and there a probably 100 people. most of the ramp members I spoke with really did not understand the larger picture, it was really just a few focused individuals (recent mount pleasanters) who have focused their attention on the obvious height and traffic. When I told them it was mostly inline with that the Mount Pleasant Community plan they were like 'oh I did not know that'. As for Meggs and the other hopeful counsel member either said, we should look at it or that it has followed what was recommended in the community plan.

what really blows me away is that a good chunk of the group are condo owners from Uno, Stella and Sophia. They are losing thier views. The city allows for more density which in turn allows them to move here and but when it effects them, they rant and rave about how bad it will be and fail to realize they are only living here because the city allowed thier building to built.

Im not saying this building is perfect, but this is a major piece to the revitalization of this area. It needs to move forward. Im hoping to be there tonight at the meeting.

[mr.sandbag]

The people that REALLY wants it to go through are only the developers and business interests involve, some figures in City Hall, and certain schools of urbanists. The only people that REALLY goes against it are the people who live in the neighbourhood.

Fixed that for you.

Quite frankly the people who live in the neighbourhood should have the right to determine what goes there. Thery're the ones who have invested their money and time to make the city livable, which civic governments love to crow about.

And I am one of them and I want to go through as do others I have talked to. So you are wrong that only the developers want it to happen.

[quobobo]

I also live there and strongly support the project - but honestly whatnext, I'd disagree that I have any more right to determine the project than someone from Surrey.

The amount of housing supply available in Vancouver affects everyone in the region - just because the benefits to others are more diffuse than the concentrated (perceived) costs to people in the neighbourhood doesn't mean that locals should have control over everything.

[quobobo]

Better to have the vocal, engaged minority dictate what is done rather that the apathetic majority.

The majority would be engaged if the costs to them weren't incredibly diffuse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Logic_of_Collective_Action) - they may benefit significantly, but because the benefits are spread across a huge number of people there is little incentive for any individual to organize.

Corporate lobbyists are also an 'engaged minority' compared to the relatively apathetic majority, for the same reasons.

[logan5]

The people that REALLY wants it to go through are only the developers and business interests involve, some figures in City Hall, and certain schools of urbanists. The only people that REALLY goes against it are the people who live in the neighbourhood.

Fixed that for you.


You do not know this neighborhood. Density is already here and that is why people move to this neighborhood, so they can enjoy the benefits that come with living in a densely populated neighborhood. So in a way the neighborhood has already endorsed this project.

The vast majority of the the people in this neighborhood know very little about this project except for the sign that sits on the property. If given the facts about not just the dizzying height of the building and the Hong Kong type density that the community activists keep harping on about, and were informed about the benefits brought about by density, there would be strong support for this project.

[Homeowner]

what really blows me away is that a good chunk of the group are condo owners from Uno, Stella and Sophia. They are losing thier views. The city allows for more density which in turn allows them to move here and but when it effects them, they rant and rave about how bad it will be and fail to realize they are only living here because the city allowed thier building to built.
.

The more density we pack in the area the better. I can't wait for the day when Kingsgate Mall will be retransformed into a much better shopping center.

As long as we have people moving in the area, this will give businesses a good incentive to set up shop.

[quobobo]

The hearing went until 11:30 and yet only 1 out of 181 registered speakers was able to speak. The hearing will start again at 6PM tomorrow.

It's mindboggling that this was the last of 6 items on the agenda - it meant that a few hundred people waited hours for no reason. This really should have been scheduled on its own.

[whatnext]

The hearing went until 11:30 and yet only 1 out of 181 registered speakers was able to speak. The hearing will start again at 6PM tomorrow.

It's mindboggling that this was the last of 6 items on the agenda - it meant that a few hundred people waited hours for no reason. This really should have been scheduled on its own. (bold mine)

No doubt that was the Mayor and his Councillors intention.

[wrenegade]

Ya it was ridiculous last night. I left at 9:45 after wanting to pull my hair out listening to people complain about a god damn tennis bubble. I also wanted to strangle Adrienne Carr for her retarded questions. I'll be there for a bit tonight, after the 1300 Richards Open House.

[mr.sandbag]

did anyone make it to the second meeting, i went to the open house for the restaurant and brewery at the restored yellow building on 7th since I will be facing the restaurant.

[logan5]

did anyone make it to the second meeting, i went to the open house for the restaurant and brewery at the restored yellow building on 7th since I will be facing the restaurant.

I presume you're talking about Scotia and 7th. This space I thought was being occupied by Goh Ballet, but I guess not.

[Homeowner]

I presume you're talking about Scotia and 7th. This space I thought was being occupied by Goh Ballet, but I guess not.

It's going to be a brewery, restaurant with a 500 sq ft outdoor patio and several artist studios. This will bring some more lively entertainment into the area.