[YYCguys]

The SW Ring Road was a hot topic in the recent election. Calgary's new Mayor is not even sure a ring road is needed. That being said, he did recently say he'd be happy to be a moderator in (future) renewed Tsuu Tina/Province of Alberta negotiations. He definitely does not like the 37th Street/Weaselhead alignment that's been talked about.

What are your thoughts about the SW Ring Road? Needed: yes or no? Renewed talks with the Tsuu Tina for a route over their land? Or another option?

It's been commented that any deal with the Tsuu Tina needs to be what was last on the table. No changes.

But, if the government and the Tsuu Tina do end up back in talks, I wonder how the Tsuu Tina would feel about a land exchange, so that the ring road can snake south from Glenmore/Sarcee just west of Black Bear Crossing (the area east of the RR alignment and east of 37th Street becomes City property for a new residential subdivision and the new TT boundary is immediately west of the RR). Then it would continue south to line up with a Many Horses Rd/90th Ave interchange. Finally the road would swoop to the east and then head south just on west side of the current boundary, with interchanges at Southland Dr, and others.

I'm no good at making maps to illustrate what I'm thinking, so I apologize if my ideas make little sense in text form! :stunned: But anyways, this is just my 2 cents. :hmmm:

[freeweed]

I've just about given up on this segment of the Ring Road, and am extremely happy I didn't locate in the SW when I moved here.

At the rate things are going I'll be retired before it's built. And while I may play the part of a cranky old fart, I'm nowhere near retirement yet! :haha:

[Calgarian]

The SW ring road is absolutely needed, no question. MacLeod trail, 14 st and Elbow Dr cannot handle all the growth that will happen in the SW in the future, they can barely handle the traffic now!

We need to take one last shot at a land swap with the Tsuu Tina nation, and we need to take a very firm but respectful position with them on it. If we can't come to an agreement then look at another option. Running it down 37th would require a lot of tunneling, and I thing that's just too expensive. After that, I don't think there is really any feasible option aside from upgrading capacity on existing roads.

[kw5150]

Why cant more people just take transit? The buses always seem to be empty in this city..... I would say the best alignment is still with Tsuu Tina. To reach a harmonizing deal with them would be great. Maybe the new council will have better luck?

Otherwise, the city should work quickly to provide a free-flow neighorhood destroying freeway system down 14th then west and south to bridlewood/evergreen. Maybe we get the Tsuu Tina connection one day but dont fuck up the weaselhead Please!!!!!!!!

[Oliver Klozov]

The original deal that was voted down involved a land swap. Re-opening negotiations is complete waste of time unless you are prepared to go into it with a big stick like cutting off access to the casino. Even that would likely not be enough.

Our mamby-pamby politicians will not do that so the only feasible solution is to buy up properties in Lakeview and Glamorgan. Our politicians are not likely to do that either so what we are going to get is some mickey mouse road that does not do the job.

Seeing as whatever we get is likely to be less than freeway standard and will probably have a few sets of lights (even one for the casino access :hell: ), they should not call it Stoney Trail. Maybe Albatross Trail instead. :(

[YYCguys]

Why cant more people just take transit? The buses always seem to be empty in this city.....

Calgary is a very car-centric population. No matter what the Council of the day does to improve transit, the folks of Calgary seem to love to travel around in their Beemers and Pickups and whatnot.

Don't get me wrong, if I lived in Calgary (I live in Airdrie), I would totally take transit as much as I could (in fact, when I do have to drive in, I park on a street near an LRT station and take transit! Gives me time to read, etc).

[kw5150]

Calgary is a very car-centric population. No matter what the Council of the day does to improve transit, the folks of Calgary seem to love to travel around in their Beemers and Pickups and whatnot.

Don't get me wrong, if I lived in Calgary (I live in Airdrie), I would totally take transit as much as I could (in fact, when I do have to drive in, I park on a street near an LRT station and take transit! Gives me time to read, etc).

The buses in Winnipeg are absolutely packed. Winnipeg has 700,000 people and 14 interchanges. Their traffic is not that bad.

Maybe we should take away some of those traffic barricades and bus gate/traps that are all around the city and let people flow through other areas.....instead of filtering everyone onto 1 or two major roads..... that is what they do in Winnipeg, they dont block off all the residential roads.

[Calgarian]

The buses in Winnipeg are absolutely packed. Winnipeg has 700,000 people and 14 interchanges. Their traffic is not that bad.

Maybe we should take away some of those traffic barricades and bus gate/traps that are all around the city and let people flow through other areas.....instead of filtering everyone onto 1 or two major roads..... that is what they do in Winnipeg, they dont block off all the residential roads.

You can't compare Calgary to Winnipeg, not even close. We probably have 5x as many people working downtown here. Winnipeg also has the luxury of being very flat, the hills in Calgary basically eliminate the possibility of having all the roads go straight through the whole city. Lastly, how many new suburbs has Winnipeg added in the last 20 years? we have probably added 300 000 people to our suburbs in those ridiculously inefficient cul-de-sac communities that were the fad throughout the 90's and 00's.

[craner]

The SW ring road is absolutely needed, no question. MacLeod trail, 14 st and Elbow Dr cannot handle all the growth that will happen in the SW in the future, they can barely handle the traffic now!

We need to take one last shot at a land swap with the Tsuu Tina nation, and we need to take a very firm but respectful position with them on it. If we can't come to an agreement then look at another option. Running it down 37th would require a lot of tunneling, and I thing that's just too expensive. After that, I don't think there is really any feasible option aside from upgrading capacity on existing roads.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Calgarian here.
The thought of re-opening talks with the Tsuu Tina does scare me in terms of "it will take forever", but the Cheif did approve of the last agreement that got voted down by the nation. My hope would be that Nenshi could somehow make a difference. It's definitely the best option for providing a freeway standard ring road.

[craner]

Why cant more people just take transit? The buses always seem to be empty in this city..... I would say the best alignment is still with Tsuu Tina. To reach a harmonizing deal with them would be great. Maybe the new council will have better luck?

Otherwise, the city should work quickly to provide a free-flow neighorhood destroying freeway system down 14th then west and south to bridlewood/evergreen. Maybe we get the Tsuu Tina connection one day but dont fuck up the weaselhead Please!!!!!!!!

I don't understand how adding interchanges to 14th Street South will destroy a neighbourhood ? :shrug:
It's not like blasting a new freeway through the middle of community and wiping out a bunch of homes.
How is a huge line-up of idling vehicles stopped at the lights better than interchanges ?
I would think it would be easier and safer for pedestrians to cross 14th with interchanges in place as well.
OUT

[freeweed]

The buses in Winnipeg are absolutely packed. Winnipeg has 700,000 people and 14 interchanges. Their traffic is not that bad.

Trying so hard to not go off on a Winnipeg tangent here, but... far more "average" Calgarians take transit here than in Winnipeg. The buses are full there because they have such lower service by comparison. And Winnipeg has a higher number of lower-income people who can only afford to take transit as their primary means of transportation. Beyond that, in a city where downtown parking is 1/4 what we pay here, most people just drive downtown.

And their traffic only seems "not that bad" because the city is relatively small compared to Calgary. Both in population and in land. I can get around Calgary at least twice as fast on average, by car, than I can in Winnipeg. I do it every year and trust me - going back there it feels like traffic just craaaawls. Stoplights everywhere and you're lucky to average 40km/h. Here? I live in the extreme NW of the city and can get to a buddy's place in the extreme SE while averaging nearly 100km/h. Legally.

A lot of this depends on what part of the city you live in. Calgary has some real nasty traffic spots to be sure.

[kw5150]

I don't understand how adding interchanges to 14th Street South will destroy a neighbourhood ? :shrug:
It's not like blasting a new freeway through the middle of community and wiping out a bunch of homes.
How is a huge line-up of idling vehicles stopped at the lights better than interchanges ?
I would think it would be easier and safer for pedestrians to cross 14th with interchanges in place as well.
OUT

Lol, that is just what I call large freeways that cut the city into segments.

[kw5150]

You can't compare Calgary to Winnipeg, not even close. We probably have 5x as many people working downtown here. Winnipeg also has the luxury of being very flat, the hills in Calgary basically eliminate the possibility of having all the roads go straight through the whole city. Lastly, how many new suburbs has Winnipeg added in the last 20 years? we have probably added 300 000 people to our suburbs in those ridiculously inefficient cul-de-sac communities that were the fad throughout the 90's and 00's.

Winnipeg utilizes buses............we dont very well
Winnipeg has a ring road with only a few cars on it.........so do we

Im just really starting to second guess why we needed our ring road to be constructed so soon here........ maybe we could have improved our other arterial roads (14th south, crowchild near kensington, macleod) while construction the ring road in more phases aiming for a finish date of 2018 for the north and east sections?? There are not a lot of cars on the ring road yet and it wont be at full capacity for a long time.

[kw5150]

Trying so hard to not go off on a Winnipeg tangent here, but... far more "average" Calgarians take transit here than in Winnipeg. The buses are full there because they have such lower service by comparison. And Winnipeg has a higher number of lower-income people who can only afford to take transit as their primary means of transportation. Beyond that, in a city where downtown parking is 1/4 what we pay here, most people just drive downtown.

And their traffic only seems "not that bad" because the city is relatively small compared to Calgary. Both in population and in land. I can get around Calgary at least twice as fast on average, by car, than I can in Winnipeg. I do it every year and trust me - going back there it feels like traffic just craaaawls. Stoplights everywhere and you're lucky to average 40km/h. Here? I live in the extreme NW of the city and can get to a buddy's place in the extreme SE while averaging nearly 100km/h. Legally.

A lot of this depends on what part of the city you live in. Calgary has some real nasty traffic spots to be sure.

Ok fine, but riding the bus in Winnipeg while I was there for 5 years was pretty convenient. All types of people rode the bus as well, not just low-income. It inspired me to take transit more. I just think there is something to be learned from every city.

[craner]

KW5150
Im just really starting to second guess why we needed our ring road to be constructed so soon here........ maybe we could have improved our other arterial roads (14th south, crowchild near kensington, macleod) while construction the ring road in more phases aiming for a finish date of 2018 for the north and east sections?? There are not a lot of cars on the ring road yet and it wont be at full capacity for a long time.

The Ring Road is a Provincial Highway project and is not taking funds away from City of Calgary projects - as I understand it

[kw5150]

The Ring Road is a Provincial Highway project and is not taking funds away from City of Calgary projects - as I understand it

Then why are we having trouble funding the SE LRT and other projects? We get provincial money for other things as well.

[Calgarian]

Then why are we having trouble funding the SE LRT and other projects? We get provincial money for other things as well.

Because things like the SE LRT are multi billion dollar projects. The tunnel aspect of the SE LRT is supposed to be in excess of a billion.

[Calgarian]

Winnipeg utilizes buses............we dont very well
Winnipeg has a ring road with only a few cars on it.........so do we

Im just really starting to second guess why we needed our ring road to be constructed so soon here........ maybe we could have improved our other arterial roads (14th south, crowchild near kensington, macleod) while construction the ring road in more phases aiming for a finish date of 2018 for the north and east sections?? There are not a lot of cars on the ring road yet and it wont be at full capacity for a long time.

The bus system in Calgary is a feeder for the LRT system (aside from the downtown express and BRT busses). Again, not really comparable.

[MichaelS]

Winnipeg utilizes buses............we dont very well
Winnipeg has a ring road with only a few cars on it.........so do we

Im just really starting to second guess why we needed our ring road to be constructed so soon here........ maybe we could have improved our other arterial roads (14th south, crowchild near kensington, macleod) while construction the ring road in more phases aiming for a finish date of 2018 for the north and east sections?? There are not a lot of cars on the ring road yet and it wont be at full capacity for a long time.

You mean turn them into neighbourhood destroying freeways ;)

[shogged]

Then why are we having trouble funding the SE LRT and other projects? We get provincial money for other things as well.

no like, the province is building the highway and maintaining it, city has nothing to do with it aside from the land. so it's not like the selrt or other city infrastructure projects.

so we're not getting any money for the ring road, province has the money, they're spending it etc etc

[freeweed]

Ok fine, but riding the bus in Winnipeg while I was there for 5 years was pretty convenient. All types of people rode the bus as well, not just low-income. It inspired me to take transit more. I just think there is something to be learned from every city.

Certainly. But living in Winnipeg, then moving to Calgary - I see some pretty highly-paid and high ranking corporate execs on the LRT every day. In Winnipeg there's still a large stigma against taking transit (the phrase "loser cruiser" was used far too often around me). Calgary has some of this, but at least for the LRT, damn near everyone is at least willing to go on it.

As to why the Ring Road was built now - Calgary is being pro-active, but not overly so. Keep in mind Winnipeg's "ring road" was built in the early 70s and at the time was waaaaay outside of the built-up city. It took decades before anyone really used it other than to by-pass the city. With Stoney Trail, its time has come. It won't be more than 10 years before additional lanes are desperately needed as the city continues to expand and grow.

[craner]

Lol, that is just what I call large freeways that cut the city into segments.

But 14th Street already exists - how does adding interchanges "cut the city into segments" ?

[craner]

no like, the province is building the highway and maintaining it, city has nothing to do with it aside from the land. so it's not like the selrt or other city infrastructure projects.

so we're not getting any money for the ring road, province has the money, they're spending it etc etc

Thanks shogged,
That is the point I was trying to get accross.

[kw5150]

The bus system in Calgary is a feeder for the LRT system (aside from the downtown express and BRT busses). Again, not really comparable.

What are you talking about? The feeder bus lines feed the major bus lines in Winnipeg. Winnipeg is also building a BRT as well which is very similar (in theory) to an LRT.

[kw5150]

Thanks shogged,
That is the point I was trying to get accross.

Does the city of Calgary get any money from the province for infrastructure? Yes. It is all related isn't it? I have to say, I still dont agree with building everything during record high construction costs no matter where the money comes from; that was my original comment.......... Call me silly I guess??

[kw5150]

Thanks shogged,
That is the point I was trying to get accross.

But 14th Street already exists - how does adding interchanges "cut the city into segments" ?

yeah, you are right I guess. I just really dont like how the suburbs are set up. I find them very strange.

[Calgarian]

What are you talking about? The feeder bus lines feed the major bus lines in Winnipeg. Winnipeg is also building a BRT as well which is very similar (in theory) to an LRT.

The majority of busses in Calgary go into the suburbs and then drop people off at the LRT, then people take the LRT into downtown. I'm not sure how it works in Winnipeg, but the lack of an LRT makes it different, therefore apples and oranges. As I stated before, you can't compare Calgary to Winnipeg, they are very different cities.

[freeweed]

The majority of busses in Calgary go into the suburbs and then drop people off at the LRT, then people take the LRT into downtown. I'm not sure how it works in Winnipeg, but the lack of an LRT makes it different, therefore apples and oranges. As I stated before, you can't compare Calgary to Winnipeg, they are very different cities.

Winnipeg has a much more extensive cross-city system (both downtown-transiting radial and outer rings). I can't think of too many routes in Calgary that even compare. Most of the buses here seem to be LRT feeders or from a suburb to downtown.

Mind you, with the LRT being what it is I don't often take a lot of different buses here, so I may be unaware of quite a lot of routes. :shrug:

One thing I definitely don't see in Calgary is as many buses on major thoroughfares. Winnipeg's major streets are often clogged with buses (imagine MacLeod with a bus every 100 feet or so during rush hour). The closest Winnipeg has to "feeder buses" are very short routes in far-flung suburbs to connect to the longer cross-city routes, that only run during rush hour, or on an otherwise very limited schedule. My feeder to the LRT runs from 5am to 1am, and I'm in the middle of nowhere. Winnipeg used to have shuttles that basically did not run unless you actually called for it to pick you up (there was no established schedule, it would just idle until someone needed it) - not sure if these still exist or not. Like you say, apples and oranges.

[kw5150]

The majority of busses in Calgary go into the suburbs and then drop people off at the LRT, then people take the LRT into downtown. I'm not sure how it works in Winnipeg, but the lack of an LRT makes it different, therefore apples and oranges. As I stated before, you can't compare Calgary to Winnipeg, they are very different cities.

Yes, but not all buses go to LRT stations in Calgary. Bowness for example. Dont be silly, there are total comparisons. The smaller bus lines feed the major bus lines in Winnipeg. Very easy comparison.

[kw5150]

Winnipeg has a much more extensive cross-city system (both downtown-transiting radial and outer rings). I can't think of too many routes in Calgary that even compare. Most of the buses here seem to be LRT feeders or from a suburb to downtown.

Mind you, with the LRT being what it is I don't often take a lot of different buses here, so I may be unaware of quite a lot of routes. :shrug:

One thing I definitely don't see in Calgary is as many buses on major thoroughfares. Winnipeg's major streets are often clogged with buses (imagine MacLeod with a bus every 100 feet or so during rush hour). Like you say, apples and oranges.

Ok, for a minute, imagine Pembina highway, Winnipeg being just like an LRT line except instead of and LRT you have a mix of standard and rapid bus lines running back and fourth. Imagine confusion corner as an LRT hub. Transit systems can be compared no matter what system they use.

I get what you are saying about Calgary's system being a feeder system totally. Other systems also perform the same way though, just differently.

[kw5150]

Anyway, now that we have destroyed yet another thread with off topic comments.............should we get on with the SW ring road? LOL

:cheers:

[ggopher]

Back to the topic of a Ring Road in Calgary.

I think we clearly do need a complete ring road, especially the SW portion.

The 37th street option is a stop gap measure at best, the ultimate design of the ring road called for a 16 lane freeway, which we will need eventually. I think it is time that we start thinking long term. The goal of Plan It Calgary was to set out a long-term direction for sustainable growth to accommodate another 1.3 million people over the next 60 years, and that is where we need to focus. Calgary with a total population of over 2 million people, and sorry no ammount of busses or LRT lines is going to solve all of our traffic problems.

The best option is to go back to the Natives. But we need to clear up a few issues:
-The natives and their council need to get on the same page
-The province needs to secure the land BEFORE they try including it in any deal.

The natives will not accept any deal that contains the words IF and MAYBE. And given the past history, who can blame them for that.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and we can work out a deal for the long term.

[Wentworth]

The one smart thing I heard Barb Higgins say during the election -- and ggohper hinted at this -- is that we need to talk directly to the members of the Tsuu T'ina to find out why they voted against the deal. I don't know what the situation is with their band, but I've heard stories about other bands where band members see very little of the money or benefits that flow into the reserve. It's possible that they didn't necessarily see or trust that they'd see any benefit from the money and land swap, perhaps the average band member figured that all of the money would flow to the band's government, and they'd lose their current homes and be forced to live much further away from Calgary.

Secondly, there should be a moratorium on growth in the far SW already.

Great freeways don't make great cities. The Weaselhead is part of what makes Calgary great. The Ring Road is not. I'm totally opposed to any option B that goes down 37th Street.

[kw5150]

The rumour is.............the deal was self-serving for the cheifs and left the everyday people suffering. The cheifs were trying to be secretive about the deal and when the everyday people found out, they voted against it.

Also, running a freeway through that area would mean ALOT of changes in how people percieve the virtually untouched area. ... It is very similar to the weaselhead and what it means to Calgarians.

[MichaelS]

Does the city of Calgary get any money from the province for infrastructure? Yes. It is all related isn't it? I have to say, I still dont agree with building everything during record high construction costs no matter where the money comes from; that was my original comment.......... Call me silly I guess??

I didn't see a comment from you about building at high costs in this thread, I think you are confusing it with the Transit thread.

[Rise_of_the_West]

Living in the west end of Calgary near the affected area for most of my life i think a few things are needed before any road option is considered. First of all Crowchild and access to downtown from the west has to be improved. Even as it is now its backed up badly every day. Add all the commuters from the deep SW onto this and you have total gridlock.

As for the option I prefer, I would like to see a tunnel (~1.8km long) under the resivoir connecting directly to Crowchild from 37th Street. This would have the least enviromental impact. It is essential in my opinion that this tunnel have HOV lanes to allow better transit service to the area.

[Bassic Lab]

But 14th Street already exists - how does adding interchanges "cut the city into segments" ?

The plans to upgrade 14th into a freeway included interchanges and additional lanes. There is not enough room in the current ROW for this. The plans were on every ten year transportation plan for a few decades but there was significant community opposition, because of the number of expropriations required, so the city quietly shelved them.

In south central Calgary there are currently four major north-south roads across less than three miles of the city. Building a freeway wall between neighbourhoods every mile is not a solution to transportation issues. There just isn't enough room in the inner city/inner suburbs to give people from south of Fish Creek a quick free flow commute. Established communities should not have to suffer for poorly planned growth on the fringes. It is a stop gap measure, at best, that will only delay the problem at the cost of other people's livability.

[Jack Doe]

Back to the topic of a Ring Road in Calgary.

The best option is to go back to the Natives. But we need to clear up a few issues:
-The natives and their council need to get on the same page
-The province needs to secure the land BEFORE they try including it in any deal.

The natives will not accept any deal that contains the words IF and MAYBE. And given the past history, who can blame them for that.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and we can work out a deal for the long term.

I agree with you.

The chief of the Tsuu Tina has repeatedly stated, that in his opinion, the reason the deal was turned down was because there was no guarantee that the band would actually recieve the land agreed to in the settlement.

The land in question is NW of Bragg Creek, is Crown-leased land, almost all of which is held by one family, the Copithornes. For those of you who don't know, the Copithornes own or lease large tracts of land west of Springbank. Clarence Copithorne, the scion of the family, was a cabinet minister in Peter Lougheed's government and is often credited with being the inspiration behind the establishment of Kannanskis Country, which just happened to be west of his property.

AFAIK, nobody has asked the Copithornes if they would be willing to sell their leases.

The obvious solution, to me, is to get an option to buy back the leases, guarantee the Tsuu Tina that the road doesn't get built until the land is transferred to them, and put it to another vote.

[Vascilli]

I propose a tunnel. :naughty:

[Jack Doe]

Regarding: turning 14 St SW into a freeway.

I live in the land of kings a 1/2 east of 14th Street SW. I would dearly love to see 14 St turned into a freeway. I have always regarded 14 St as being basicly an extension of Crowchild Trail.

As to it being a barrier between communities, it is, and has been, a barrier for the last 40 years. Turning it into a freeway isn't going to change that and actually might make it more pedestrian-friendly as thru-traffic will now be separated from pedestrian movements.

Regarding: Expropriation of houses to expand 14 St to a freeway.

14 St/Anderson Rd - ROW protected, no expropriation necessary.

14 St/Southland Dr - ROW protected, requirements have changed since the 70's, some expropriation necessary in the SW quadrant (5-10 houses?).

14 St/90 Av - No Expropriation necessary.

14 St/Heritage Dr - No Expropriation necessary* (See 75 Av).

14 St/75 Av - This is where the problem is. The current plan is for Eagle Ridge Dr to be extended southward to connect to Heritage Dr. The houses to the east of Eagle Ridge Dr would be acquired and demolished. Eagle Ridge Dr would essentially become a service road between Heritage Dr and Rockyview Hospital.


Eagle Ridge is the problem to any expansion of 14th St. There is an anonymous cabal that has been most successful at blocking any expansion of 14th St against the wishes of the majority of the people who live, work, and drive, in this area of Calgary.

As far as I'm concerned, you could bulldoze this entire self-centered elitist community and I wouldn't shed a tear. They can rebuild out in Springbank where they belong.

[Jack Doe]

I propose a tunnel. :naughty:

Fine with me. Are you going to pay for it?:)

[para transit fellow]

i recall how the residents of eagle ridge went ballistic back when the GOplan was talking about upgrades to 14 street.

The neighbourhood is at a disadvantage however. There are no sidewalks for their domestic staff to walk from the bus stop on....

[chenmau]

The Tsuu Tina route would allow for a bigger road, and at higher speeds, without damaging the Weaselhead. But I don't want to be held ransom to the Tsuu Tina's internal struggles. I think the province and the band should quickly and quietly get a deal done.

IIRC, the Tsuu Tina route would allow for the band to be able to develop commercial land between the ring road and the casino. This would also greatly benefit the SW. It would be great to have a larger Walmart, Superstore, etc on that land, as the nearest Walmart and Superstores are far to small to service the SW properly. The Walmart on Bow Trail could then be demolished and we could see more some bigger density on that site.

[Bassic Lab]

Regarding: turning 14 St SW into a freeway.

I live in the land of kings a 1/2 east of 14th Street SW. I would dearly love to see 14 St turned into a freeway. I have always regarded 14 St as being basicly an extension of Crowchild Trail.

As to it being a barrier between communities, it is, and has been, a barrier for the last 40 years. Turning it into a freeway isn't going to change that and actually might make it more pedestrian-friendly as thru-traffic will now be separated from pedestrian movements.

Regarding: Expropriation of houses to expand 14 St to a freeway.

14 St/Anderson Rd - ROW protected, no expropriation necessary.

14 St/Southland Dr - ROW protected, requirements have changed since the 70's, some expropriation necessary in the SW quadrant (5-10 houses?).

14 St/90 Av - No Expropriation necessary.

14 St/Heritage Dr - No Expropriation necessary* (See 75 Av).

14 St/75 Av - This is where the problem is. The current plan is for Eagle Ridge Dr to be extended southward to connect to Heritage Dr. The houses to the east of Eagle Ridge Dr would be acquired and demolished. Eagle Ridge Dr would essentially become a service road between Heritage Dr and Rockyview Hospital.


Eagle Ridge is the problem to any expansion of 14th St. There is an anonymous cabal that has been most successful at blocking any expansion of 14th St against the wishes of the majority of the people who live, work, and drive, in this area of Calgary.

As far as I'm concerned, you could bulldoze this entire self-centered elitist community and I wouldn't shed a tear. They can rebuild out in Springbank where they belong.

Do you have a link to this? As I understood the plan it would have required extensive expropriation around most of the interchanges.

[Calgarian]

Back to the topic of a Ring Road in Calgary.

I think we clearly do need a complete ring road, especially the SW portion.

The 37th street option is a stop gap measure at best, the ultimate design of the ring road called for a 16 lane freeway, which we will need eventually. I think it is time that we start thinking long term. The goal of Plan It Calgary was to set out a long-term direction for sustainable growth to accommodate another 1.3 million people over the next 60 years, and that is where we need to focus. Calgary with a total population of over 2 million people, and sorry no ammount of busses or LRT lines is going to solve all of our traffic problems.

The best option is to go back to the Natives. But we need to clear up a few issues:
-The natives and their council need to get on the same page
-The province needs to secure the land BEFORE they try including it in any deal.

The natives will not accept any deal that contains the words IF and MAYBE. And given the past history, who can blame them for that.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and we can work out a deal for the long term.

This was my understanding as well. The Provincial and Federal governments promised to "try" to get them the land, but never actually guaranteed it. I think we can forgive anyone of aboriginal decent for being a bit wary of promises by the government because they have been screwed over and jerked around for as long as they can remember.

[freeweed]

This was my understanding as well. The Provincial and Federal governments promised to "try" to get them the land, but never actually guaranteed it. I think we can forgive anyone of aboriginal decent for being a bit wary of promises by the government because they have been screwed over and jerked around for as long as they can remember.

True, which is why I'm astounded these deals would even bother. Offer a bunch of money, or land, or both - done. None of this "future considerations" BS.

I remember the deal being pretty rich in the cash department, but I have no idea how large the reserve population actually is. How much money would each person received with the initial offer?

[YYCguys]

True, which is why I'm astounded these deals would even bother. Offer a bunch of money, or land, or both - done. None of this "future considerations" BS.

I remember the deal being pretty rich in the cash department, but I have no idea how large the reserve population actually is. How much money would each person received with the initial offer?

Would individuals receive a piece of the pie or would the money be given to the Band Council to dole out to projects, etc? This in addition to the tens of thousands that each Band member receives on their 18th birthday already and the thousands of dollars that each Band member receives at Christmas? (information given to me by a friend who works in a bank that cashes a lot of these "bonus" checks).

[kw5150]

Living in the west end of Calgary near the affected area for most of my life i think a few things are needed before any road option is considered. First of all Crowchild and access to downtown from the west has to be improved. Even as it is now its backed up badly every day. Add all the commuters from the deep SW onto this and you have total gridlock.

As for the option I prefer, I would like to see a tunnel (~1.8km long) under the resivoir connecting directly to Crowchild from 37th Street. This would have the least enviromental impact. It is essential in my opinion that this tunnel have HOV lanes to allow better transit service to the area.

I dont really know of any other tunnels like that in all of canada and it is maybe a pipe dream? We need to re-open talks and come up with a fair deal.

[fusili]

I say scrap the SWRR altogether unless a deal can be worked out with Tsuu T'ina. Upgrade 14th street up to Glenmore, put in transit lanes either way for BRTs, and then put a lane reversal on Elbow Drive north of Glenmore for 2 lanes north bound, one transit lane northbound and one shared lane southbound (morning commute). I think that could work.

[Calgarian]

I say scrap the SWRR altogether unless a deal can be worked out with Tsuu T'ina. Upgrade 14th street up to Glenmore, put in transit lanes either way for BRTs, and then put a lane reversal on Elbow Drive north of Glenmore for 2 lanes north bound, one transit lane northbound and one shared lane southbound (morning commute). I think that could work.

THe communities along Elbow would fight that tooth and nail, those whiners somehow managed to get a large portion of that road a 40km/h speed limit.

[Mazrim]

Do you have a link to this? As I understood the plan it would have required extensive expropriation around most of the interchanges.

A 6-lane expressway (14th Street will never be a freeway) with interchanges by today's road design standards would require more land than is currently available. If we built them to standards from 30-40 years ago? Maybe.

I'm pretty sure I've gone to great detail about my thoughts on the SWRR in the Stoney Trail thread, but in short...my thought is that we have to build something, be it 37th Street ROW or Tsuu T'ina Land. I used to live in Signal Hill, and the commute to the deep south every day was excruciating. I moved out of the SW for a better commute to work, it was that simple. I'm glad to be rid of driving that regularly, but I still think it's a necessary part of the Calgary road system that needs to be built.

Long version: In terms of looking at roads like Crowchild instead of the SWRR, it's not just downtown commuters that will benefit from network upgrades. There is a large percentage of people who are going everywhere BUT downtown from the SW, and being bottlenecked onto only a few possible routes around the Glenmore Resevoir and Fish Creek Park is what kills any chance of current network upgrades solving the problem. You're still trying to funnel all that traffic through the same small area. Opening up more arteries through the area will spread out the load, making roads even with no upgrades smoother.

(As a side note, I would have taken transit when I lived in Signal Hill if it didn't increase my commute one way from 40 minutes to 2.5 hours!)

The SW Ring Road is the solution to continually looking at "Add more lanes to Macleod!" and "Add more lanes to Glenmore!", which aren't very feasible. Both are at their ROW limits already, and more lanes doesn't make sense compared to a new route.

It is my belief that many people in the NW/NE really don't think the SWRR is needed because they don't regularly see the congestion we get daily.

[freeweed]

It is my belief that many people in the NW/NE really don't think the SWRR is needed because they don't regularly see the congestion we get daily.

Half true. Count me as someone in the NW who thinks this city desperately needs the SW Ring Road, and NOW. I drive all over the city on a regular basis and the SW is absolutely the worst in terms of traffic, hands down. It's the reason I specifically avoided the SW when trying to pick place to live here.

You're right in that I don't regularly see the congestion (by choice). I've always thought that the people who complain about traffic the most in Calgary must come from the SW. I find traffic here to be a joke compared to most cities I've driven - a joke in that it's never really congested - except 2 things: the SW when the sun is above the horizon, and Deerfoot during rush hour. So long as I avoid those 2 scenarios, I'm just about never stuck in traffic other than the worst blizzard of the year.

I want the SW Ring Road built for the same reason I want the SELRT built. I may never use either, certainly not regularly. But I'm not a selfish asshole who only wants stuff built in MY part of town. I want to bring the very pleasant driving and transit experience that I have to every corner of this city.

[Oliver Klozov]

This was my understanding as well. The Provincial and Federal governments promised to "try" to get them the land, but never actually guaranteed it. I think we can forgive anyone of aboriginal decent for being a bit wary of promises by the government because they have been screwed over and jerked around for as long as they can remember.

That wasn't my understanding of it. The province owns the land. The Copithornes just have a grazing lease. The longest any of those are/were is 20 years. They are not automatically renewable. If the lessee wants to renew they have first right to do so before it is offered to anyone else but the province can change the land designation so that it isn't offered at all. They are not obligated to continue the grazing lease if they want the land for a different purpose. Therefore, there was no problem with the province guaranteeing that they could secure the land.

The only thing that wasn't guaranteed was that the federal government would actually allow the land to become part of the reserve. It was my understanding that they had no problem with it but they had to have an actual application to deal with before they could act on it.

I believe the real reason the natives rejected the deal is simply they think they can just keep holding out for more. Re-opening negotiations is a complete waste of time; a deal will never get passed without changing something else like cutting off access to the casino.

[fusili]

I used to live in Signal Hill, and the commute to the deep south every day was excruciating. I moved out of the SW for a better commute to work, it was that simple. I'm glad to be rid of driving that regularly, but I still think it's a necessary part of the Calgary road system that needs to be built.


Great (unintentional) point.

Why did you live in Signal Hill if you worked in the deep south? And why would you expect a speedy commute if you did so?

Residential location choices have a huge impact on travel. What many people fail to realize is that residential relocation is used as a transportation strategy by many people. How did you handle a long commute? You moved.

But what would happen if we built the SW Ring Road. All of a sudden people living in Royal Oak (no offense to anyone here) can think that working in the deep south and living in Royal Oak is a viable option. The more roads we build, the less people will use housing location as a transportation strategy, and the more they will drive. Roads in many ways act as an induced demand. By building the ring road we are creating traffic. Maybe we are reducing far more traffic than we are creating, but we are definitely creating traffic.

[fusili]

:previous: I probably came off as a jackass in that last post. But I think the problem is that the city was approving subdivisions without a clear idea how it would handle traffic in the future and without a guarantee that the ring road would go through. If the city wanted to approve those communities in the SW, it should have made it clear that traffic wasn't going to be great. The problem is most of the people that moved there had no idea what the travel implications of their choice was.

[Me&You]

Great (unintentional) point.

Why did you live in Signal Hill if you worked in the deep south? And why would you expect a speedy commute if you did so?

Residential location choices have a huge impact on travel. What many people fail to realize is that residential relocation is used as a transportation strategy by many people. How did you handle a long commute? You moved.

But what would happen if we built the SW Ring Road. All of a sudden people living in Royal Oak (no offense to anyone here) can think that working in the deep south and living in Royal Oak is a viable option. The more roads we build, the less people will use housing location as a transportation strategy, and the more they will drive. Roads in many ways act as an induced demand. By building the ring road we are creating traffic. Maybe we are reducing far more traffic than we are creating, but we are definitely creating traffic.

I thought that reverse commuting was encouraged around these parts? Marzim, by traveling from Signal Hill to the deep south would have generally been traveling against the flow of rush hour traffic. I bet that his commute would have been even worse if he was traveling from the deep south to Signal Hill in the morning (and back at night).

People change jobs, often. I don't think it's fair to expect everyone to just "live close to where you work". There are so many other factors... Spouses working somewhere else, children's schooling, other family obligations, etc... It's never as simple as living closer to work...

[fusili]

I thought that reverse commuting was encouraged around these parts? Marzim, by traveling from Signal Hill to the deep south would have generally been traveling against the flow of rush hour traffic. I bet that his commute would have been even worse if he was traveling from the deep south to Signal Hill in the morning (and back at night).

People change jobs, often. I don't think it's fair to expect everyone to just "live close to where you work". There are so many other factors... Spouses working somewhere else, children's schooling, other family obligations, etc... It's never as simple as living closer to work...

Another good point. People take many, many things into consideration when deciding where to live and often they change jobs more than they change houses. Which is why concentrated areas of employment connected to rapid transit (and connected to each other) is how we need to handle development in our city.

[Bassic Lab]

A 6-lane expressway (14th Street will never be a freeway) with interchanges by today's road design standards would require more land than is currently available. If we built them to standards from 30-40 years ago? Maybe.

I'm pretty sure I've gone to great detail about my thoughts on the SWRR in the Stoney Trail thread, but in short...my thought is that we have to build something, be it 37th Street ROW or Tsuu T'ina Land. I used to live in Signal Hill, and the commute to the deep south every day was excruciating. I moved out of the SW for a better commute to work, it was that simple. I'm glad to be rid of driving that regularly, but I still think it's a necessary part of the Calgary road system that needs to be built.

Long version: In terms of looking at roads like Crowchild instead of the SWRR, it's not just downtown commuters that will benefit from network upgrades. There is a large percentage of people who are going everywhere BUT downtown from the SW, and being bottlenecked onto only a few possible routes around the Glenmore Resevoir and Fish Creek Park is what kills any chance of current network upgrades solving the problem. You're still trying to funnel all that traffic through the same small area. Opening up more arteries through the area will spread out the load, making roads even with no upgrades smoother.

(As a side note, I would have taken transit when I lived in Signal Hill if it didn't increase my commute one way from 40 minutes to 2.5 hours!)

The SW Ring Road is the solution to continually looking at "Add more lanes to Macleod!" and "Add more lanes to Glenmore!", which aren't very feasible. Both are at their ROW limits already, and more lanes doesn't make sense compared to a new route.

It is my belief that many people in the NW/NE really don't think the SWRR is needed because they don't regularly see the congestion we get daily.

I'm not sure how a six lane expressway with interchanges isn't a freeway but I suppose semantics don't really matter. I grew up in Haysboro and remember the opposition to upgrading 14th St that was there. I might not remember the plans perfectly and a lot of the opposition might not have realized just what the upgrade entailed so if I'm wrong I would like to see the plans. That said, I cannot see how expropriation would not be required, no matter what standard the interchanges are built to. The city would need land for the detour roads, land for changing the grade, and land for ramps. The GE5 project was about as tight as possible and it used a fair amount of land during construction; land that does not exist around intersections like 14th and 90th.

[Bassic Lab]

THe communities along Elbow would fight that tooth and nail, those whiners somehow managed to get a large portion of that road a 40km/h speed limit.

Nothing quite makes me feel like a class warrior like the 40 km/h speed limit on Elbow, and don't get me started on the world's longest playground zone, but even I would likely fight it tooth and nail. I would hate to be behind someone turning left across three lanes of traffic at an unsignalized intersection in the only southbound lane. It would be a nightmare for cars and transit, the #3 bus has great headways and is busy in both directions. If left turns were banned it would also be a nighmare as the only effective way to get around a lot of communities would be taken away.

[MonctonGoldenFlames]

THe communities along Elbow would fight that tooth and nail, those whiners somehow managed to get a large portion of that road a 40km/h speed limit.

it's amazing what money can do!

[fusili]

Nothing quite makes me feel like a class warrior like the 40 km/h speed limit on Elbow, and don't get me started on the world's longest playground zone, but even I would likely fight it tooth and nail. I would hate to be behind someone turning left across three lanes of traffic at an unsignalized intersection in the only southbound lane. It would be a nightmare for cars and transit, the #3 bus has great headways and is busy in both directions. If left turns were banned it would also be a nighmare as the only effective way to get around a lot of communities would be taken away.

How does Centre Street do it? (this is a real question)

[Calgarian]

That wasn't my understanding of it. The province owns the land. The Copithornes just have a grazing lease. The longest any of those are/were is 20 years. They are not automatically renewable. If the lessee wants to renew they have first right to do so before it is offered to anyone else but the province can change the land designation so that it isn't offered at all. They are not obligated to continue the grazing lease if they want the land for a different purpose. Therefore, there was no problem with the province guaranteeing that they could secure the land.

The only thing that wasn't guaranteed was that the federal government would actually allow the land to become part of the reserve. It was my understanding that they had no problem with it but they had to have an actual application to deal with before they could act on it.

I believe the real reason the natives rejected the deal is simply they think they can just keep holding out for more. Re-opening negotiations is a complete waste of time; a deal will never get passed without changing something else like cutting off access to the casino.

If they are actually trying to get more than double the land that they would have lost and $400 million dollars (I think those were the terms), then we should absolutely play hardball and cut off access to their casino. They seem to forget the massive retail opportunities that would come out of this, perhaps that should be brought up if/when negotiations resume.

[kw5150]

If we did make start with 14th ave as the solution.....

Widening roads is not the answer, adding more interchages is.

You can have only 2 lanes each way (with additional merge in and out lanes) and as long as you have an interchange, things should flow smoothly.

I was pretty surprised to see some of the main freeways in Los Angeles were only 3 lanes wide. There we no stoplights, and although the traffic was gridlocked, it was still moving.

These interchanges do not have to be high speed either. The interchanges in LA were very similar to what you see on crowchild with a set of lights at the top.

The trick is to keep everything free-flowing. I am obviously simplifying this solution down to a few things an I realize that there is more to it than just adding intechanges.

[outoftheice]

...Long version: In terms of looking at roads like Crowchild instead of the SWRR, it's not just downtown commuters that will benefit from network upgrades. There is a large percentage of people who are going everywhere BUT downtown from the SW, and being bottlenecked onto only a few possible routes around the Glenmore Resevoir and Fish Creek Park is what kills any chance of current network upgrades solving the problem...

I think that this pretty much sums up exactly why we need the SWRR. Because no matter how many upgrades we make to existing roads, no matter how many BRT routes are added, the fact remains that one accident on the Glenmore Causeway over the resevoir grid-locks traffic in the entire SW quadrant of the city! That bridge is essentially the only major east-west corridor for every resident living south of the Bow River, which is ridiculous for a city of Calgary's size. Building the SWRR opens up Southland Drive, Anderson Road and the 22x portion of Stoney Trail to be used as alternatives to the Glenmore Causeway. That's why the City and the Province need to get it built and get it built soon!

[Calgarian]

Nothing quite makes me feel like a class warrior like the 40 km/h speed limit on Elbow, and don't get me started on the world's longest playground zone, but even I would likely fight it tooth and nail. I would hate to be behind someone turning left across three lanes of traffic at an unsignalized intersection in the only southbound lane. It would be a nightmare for cars and transit, the #3 bus has great headways and is busy in both directions. If left turns were banned it would also be a nighmare as the only effective way to get around a lot of communities would be taken away.

Good point, that would pretty much FUBAR the whole area.

[Mazrim]

:previous: I probably came off as a jackass in that last post. But I think the problem is that the city was approving subdivisions without a clear idea how it would handle traffic in the future and without a guarantee that the ring road would go through. If the city wanted to approve those communities in the SW, it should have made it clear that traffic wasn't going to be great. The problem is most of the people that moved there had no idea what the travel implications of their choice was.
Actually, I was smiling when I read your post, and not in the condescending "you're wrong and I'm about blow apart your argument" way. You're totally right. For me it was where my roommates wanted to go, and where it was affordable to go. Signal Hill turned out to be the best place for us in terms of location and cost. The commute was about the same as when I lived in Beddington, though. Eventually I was able to move out from Signal Hill in to my own place and only 10 minutes from work.

Another example, I ask my girlfriend's aunt why she lives in Mission and works in Burnaby, and it's simply just money. It costs less for her to live out there and have her own house, even with the cost of traveling. Her time spent commuting sucks, but she figures it's worth it.

I thought that reverse commuting was encouraged around these parts? Marzim, by traveling from Signal Hill to the deep south would have generally been traveling against the flow of rush hour traffic. I bet that his commute would have been even worse if he was traveling from the deep south to Signal Hill in the morning (and back at night).
The Glenmore Causeway is very busy in both directions in rush hour, so the only difference would have been in the afternoon rush when Glenmore backed up from 37th to Crowchild. Oddly, in the morning rush, Glenmore didn't back up very far at all towards Highway 8 in comparison. My morning and afternoon commute times were only 5 minutes different most of the time.

[fusili]

The more I think about it, the more I realize the 50th avenue transit connection across the Elbow is essential to this city's transportation infrastructure. You could potentially run a BRT from Westhills, through MRU, across 50th, to the SLRT @ 39th ST station, across Manchester to the SELRT @ Highfield station and then across to the east side of Deerfoot, the whole time barely stopping.

Unfortunately it will never happen.

[freeweed]

Nothing quite makes me feel like a class warrior like the 40 km/h speed limit on Elbow, and don't get me started on the world's longest playground zone

I have to admit, I don't notice a lot of this sort of thing in Calgary but those folks are just complete elitist assholes. I know exactly what you mean.

[Bassic Lab]

How does Centre Street do it? (this is a real question)

I wondered about that myself. I came to the conclusion that there are a few differences between that part of Centre and the portion of Elbow you pointed out that together make a big difference. It is a shorter distance and, what with a raised bridge being involved, almost half of it has no intersections. Between 2nd Ave S and 7th Ave N there is no traffic attempting to turn. Most of the intersections on the remaining portion are already controlled by lights. Finally, the neighbourhoods around that portion of Centre are on a proper grid so there are more options and restricting left turns (I forget if left turns are restricted on that portion of Centre; I think I've only ever driven on it once during rush hour, it was with the flow of traffic and I stayed on until McKnight) does not completely limit connectivity. Some one could turn right, travel a block, turn north or south and then swing back towards Centre and proceed to the side they want to be on when they have a green light.

Basically I think that portion of Centre functions more like the combination of 4th and 5th Streets does for downtown bound Elbow traffic. Elbow between Mission and Glenmore Trail functions more like Centre St between 20th Ave (where the lane reversals end) and 64th Ave but with an even more fractured grid because of the Elbow River.

[freeweed]

Another example, I ask my girlfriend's aunt why she lives in Mission and works in Burnaby, and it's simply just money. It costs less for her to live out there and have her own house, even with the cost of traveling. Her time spent commuting sucks, but she figures it's worth it.

It's funny - I get a lot of "commuting sucks, how can you stand spending so much time going to and from work" from people who really champion transit (of any form). I just find it funny because in nearly every situation (metro Toronto excepted), transit is slower than driving. Certainly in a city like Calgary. If long commutes really are intolerable, transit is the LAST thing I'd recommend for people.

Personally, I much prefer either a very short (I'm talking 5 minutes, ie: walk) or very long (30 mins plus) commute. Anything in between is pointless, but at least with a solid half hour you have time to DO something with your time (read, have a nap, homework...). Maybe it's just the routine I've gotten used to.

[eternallyme]

If they build the 37th Street alignment, could they make it so that the median is preserved for an LRT alignment (a possible Southwest LRT)?

[Mazrim]

There isn't enough room on 37th Street's alignment for LRT. There is no provision in the TUC anywhere for LRT.

[kev_427]

actually it will be. look at number P0396.

http://www.calgary.ca/DocGallery/BU/trans_planning/forecasting/forecasting_toolbox/lrs_anticipated_projects.pdf

[5seconds]

actually it will be. look at number P0396.

http://www.calgary.ca/DocGallery/BU/trans_planning/forecasting/forecasting_toolbox/lrs_anticipated_projects.pdf

That document is 4 years old, and the LRT line you see (in green, project 0396) assumes a Tsuu T'ina Ring Road alignment, so even that document does not show an LRT/37th alignment north of the reservoir.

I doubt we will see any LRT integration with the Ring Road if it goes down 37th street.

[jsbertram]

That document is 4 years old, and the LRT line you see (in green, project 0396) assumes a Tsuu T'ina Ring Road alignment, so even that document does not show an LRT/37th alignment north of the reservoir.

I doubt we will see any LRT integration with the Ring Road if it goes down 37th street.

The SW LRT (project 0396) seems to branch off the West LRT at Sarcee Tr & 17th Ave, and heads south down (beside?) Sarcee Tr.


Interesting to see that the Sarcee Tr connector through Edworthy Park to Shaganappi Tr is still on the city's wish-list after 40 years.

[5seconds]

The SW LRT (project 0396) seems to branch off the West LRT at Sarcee Tr & 17th Ave, and heads south down (beside?) Sarcee Tr.

I think it's actually a good idea. If they could run it first by westhills, and then to MRU, it would make a good spur, I think.

If the Tsuu T'ina ever makes that Ring Road alignment a reality, then I think running a line to Providence is a good idea too.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah that map is very old, that in the mean time the province has cancelled the 2nd ring road shown there is but one example of changes.

[jsbertram]

Yeah that map is very old, that in the mean time the province has cancelled the 2nd ring road shown there is but one example of changes.

ca. 2008 is "very old" ?

Just because the current gov't has cancelled it, there's nothing stopping a future gov't from reviving it in 10, 15, 25 years.
Bureaucracies have ways of keeping these type of projects on life-support for decades.

I noticed that the west portion of the outer ring stops at Glenmore Tr, so someone knows that more negotiations with the Tsuu T'ina will be needed to get this extended across their lands to get to Hwy 22x and further south to meet up with the south portion of the ring.

[MalcolmTucker]

The inner ring road was designed at one point to carry 16 lanes in the sw section, 8 from the outer, and 8 from the inner.

[kev_427]

So obviously some things are going to change in 50 years. I just found it very informative. btw, the link changed. Here it is.
http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation/TP/Pages/Planning/Forecasting/Forecasting-Toolbox.aspx#4

[Wentworth]

So obviously some things are going to change in 50 years. I just found it very informative. btw, the link changed. Here it is.
http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation/TP/Pages/Planning/Forecasting/Forecasting-Toolbox.aspx#4

Looks like I could be dead before they extend the West LRT from 69th to 85th streets, which is slated for somewhere between 2040 and 2076.