[cabotp]

I don't think I've ever seen a 41 using trollys

Generally a trolley bus will be on 41st ave when it is dead heading back home. An example would be a #19 finished for the day. It gets to joyce and kingsway and turns into a #41 to Oak.

I'm not sure if I've ever seen a #41 to dunbar trolley in recent times. :shrug:

[allan_kuan]

A construction update of three Expo Line stations. All photos were taken by me roughly last week. (Yeah, last week... was a little lazy in terms of uploading them ^^;)

Royal Oak Stn Southeast Entrance
http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/4839/dscn0421t.jpg
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/1614/dscn0422n.jpg

Patterson Stn Southeast Entrance
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/1328/dscn0426m.jpg

Patterson Stn West Entrance
http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/5125/dscn0429id.jpg
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/4011/dscn0432p.jpg

29th Ave Stn East Entrance
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9409/dscn0453d.jpg

29th Ave Stn West Entrance
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4015/dscn0452hn.jpg
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/7805/dscn0461lz.jpg

[WBC]

:previous:

Are they installing glass panels in place of wire-mash or did I forgot how Royal oak and Patterson l station looked?

[deasine]

The glass definitely makes a big difference. I really hope they can replace the mesh screens on the platform levels as well (but that's probably beyond the scope of this project). Thanks for the photos!

As I said earlier, I think the 29th Avenue Station upgrades were poorly designed and it seems especially obvious now. The East Station Entrance currently is a pedestrian footbridge with a set of stairs linking to the platform. The new stairs to the east of the footbridge replaces the old set of stairs to the west, allowing room for the fare gates. The problem of this is that when and if the Expo platforms require extensions, then these stairs and fare gates need to be taken down and moved again. Notice in allan_kuan's photos, the stairs prevent any station platform extension without its removal.

[DKaz]

The steel staircase screams "Temporary!" if you ask me.

[allan_kuan]

Something else I heard that I don't really approve of: apparently, the design for Production Station calls for faregates at both entrances, which sounds fine until you take into account potential residents that may want to only use the bus loop. Where are they going to go then in that case? It seems rather inefficient and error-prone for TransLink to implement a software workaround to that rather than just aligning the fare-gates parallel to the stairs and the elevator. =S Even the contractors that I spoke to today said it didn't make sense. =S

[bardak]

Something else I heard that I don't really approve of: apparently, the design for Production Station calls for faregates at both entrances, which sounds fine until you take into account potential residents that may want to only use the bus loop. Where are they going to go then in that case? It seems rather inefficient and error-prone for TransLink to implement a software workaround to that rather than just aligning the fare-gates parallel to the stairs and the elevator. =S Even the contractors that I spoke to today said it didn't make sense. =S

If I am not mistaken we Compass will be a tap-on/tap-off system so it shouldn't be that big of a problem. As long as they consider the loop within the fare paid zone you would not need to tap on the bus. And since the fare has been paid already it would be really easy to implement all door boarding (not that we shouldn't implement it system wide anyway)

[nname]

The bus loop can be desginated as a fare paid zone, like what bardak said.

[allan_kuan]

Except the contractors clearly indicated to me that they'll put faregates at both entrances, which implies that TransLink is not doing that. =S

[Metro-One]

:previous:Then they just need to properly build a sidewalk along the bus entrance. I always walk in that way when i park my car at Production station.

[nname]

The swipe on the fare gate would replace the swipe when you board the bus for the multi-zone or distance based fare to work. Otherwise, how would the system know where you transferred to routes such as 110 and 136 if there ever going to be another loop within fare paid zone in the future?

[DKaz]

Because you eventually need to tap off somewhere. If you tap on the 145 and tap off on the 110, I think they can make the connection.

Remember, a transfer between the Millenium and Expo Lines will not require a tap in/out either, unless you wanted to grab a Mega Bite pizza or something.

[squeezied]

I got this email today. You guys should have a say in the naming of various terminologies to be used.

Dear TransLink Listens Panelist,

Please take a moment to complete this 5 minute survey to gauge your preferences for different terms to describe faregate equipment. This will be used to develop communications materials for the upcoming launch of the new Compass card and faregates at SkyTrain and SeaBus stations.

Click here to participate before the closing date of March 8, 2012:

https://join.translinklistens.ca/R.aspx?r=2V1JcUCjBEG53k1oepFn0g&m=600000312


Regards,
TransLink Listens

[Mac Write]

I filled it in saving almost all the terms were just too confusing for "Average Joe." Card Swipe? that does that mean, is it reading the card, is it charging me money, what? and so on and so on.

[igeneer]

I said that I liked 'Tap on/in' and 'tap out' best. I also preferred the name "Compass Card Machine', rather then ticket vending machine. I like how they do it in London with the Oyster card and all the branding that people recongnize around that card. We need to be calling it the Compass Card, and having visitors to Vancouver calling it that too!

[Gordon]

when does Coast Mountain plan to start installing card readers on the bus fleet?

Has Translink decided whether hey ar staying with the current Zonal fare system or a distance based one?

[nname]

when does Coast Mountain plan to start installing card readers on the bus fleet?

Has Translink decided whether hey ar staying with the current Zonal fare system or a distance based one?

Faregate installation at SkyTrain station would take place at around May. I guess that's around the same time they install card readers on bus? As of the end of last year, 60% of the fleet have the wiring complete.

And they will stay with zonal fare at the beginning.

[mezzanine]

Two dozen SkyTrain employees lose jobs early due to fare gate completion


By SUSAN LAZARUK, The Province

.....

But Siddon said the temporary positions, which paid $22 an hour, were ended early because “the bulk of the construction is now complete. I would say the vast majority of the pre-work for the fare gates is wrapping up.”



Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/news/dozen+SkyTrain+employees+lose+jobs+early+fare+gate+completion/6267061/story.html#ixzz1odbWfGlX

[Dave2]

Signs detailing the faregate project at Brentwood Town Centre appeared this week. If I read it right, there will be only three gates (plus one wheelchair gate).... Really? The station gets really busy in the PM rush with passengers boarding and alighting, four gates seems inadequate imo

[Metro-One]

5 gates should be the minimum for any station (4 regular and 1 wheelchair).

I feel that Broadway - City Hall, with only 5 gates, will also become a problem. There is enough room there for at least 7.

[squeezied]

There's definitely enough space for more fare gates, instead there's a glass door. Does anybody know why? Is this provisional space for future fare gates?

[nname]

The main entrance for Waterfront (for Expo/Millennium Lines, WCE, and SeaBus) have a large glass panel on one side too...

I have the photo for the plan of each of the 4 Waterfront entrances, but didn't post here as I thought no one is interested in them anymore...
- Cordova Entrance to Expo/Millennium/WCE/SeaBus - 8 gates
- Howe Entrance to Expo/Millennium - 5 gates
- Cordova Entrance to Canada Line - 4 gates
- Granville Entrance to Canada - 3 gates

20 gates in total.

[Mac Write]

Please do post the photos!

[Dave2]

The main entrance for Waterfront (for Expo/Millennium Lines, WCE, and SeaBus) have a large glass panel on one side too...

I have the photo for the plan of each of the 4 Waterfront entrances, but didn't post here as I thought no one is interested in them anymore...
- Cordova Entrance to Expo/Millennium/WCE/SeaBus - 8 gates
- Howe Entrance to Expo/Millennium - 5 gates
- Cordova Entrance to Canada Line - 4 gates
- Granville Entrance to Canada - 3 gates

20 gates in total.

Waterfront (Expo/Millennium/WCE/SeaBus) can be crazy busy, I sometimes exit there at 5:45PMish and am almost bowled over by the wave of humanity rushing the other way. There may be a side benefit of the gates.. crowds entering the fare paid zone seem to gravitate to the left side, entry gates may move them to the right where they belong :speech:

[Pinion]

There may be a side benefit of the gates.. crowds entering the fare paid zone seem to gravitate to the left side, entry gates may move them to the right where they belong :speech:

I hope so - this drives me insane.

[WarrenC12]

So Adrian Dix admitted he didn't buy a ticket and was caught March 3. He only got a warning though.

Thankfully deadbeats like him and Gregor won't be able to get on the train with the implementation of faregates. :notacrook:

[aberdeen5698]

So Adrian Dix admitted he didn't buy a ticket and was caught March 3. He only got a warning though.It's a pretty embarrassing thing to happen to such a pro-transit politician, but I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. I've had a couple of "oops" moments, particularly after discontinuing the use of a monthly pass, where I realized that I'd forgotten to validate my faresaver ticket. I never actually got caught with an unstamped ticket, and I did get it validated as soon as I realized my mistake - but the experience makes it clear to me that these kinds of things can happen even to the most honest of people. I wouldn't want to be condemned for an unintentional slip like that.

And at least he actually uses transit, which is a lot more than you can say for most other politicians.

[Metro-One]

:previous:If he pays for his ticket and admits he was wrong, no big deal.

But if he pulls a mayor of Vancouver, and tries to fight it and make a big fuss, then it will make me angry.

[WarrenC12]

He was let off with a warning. But it happened a few weeks ago, it didn't come out until today because a reporter found out and asked him.

Edit: If they ever catch me that's my excuse. Going to ticket me but not a political party leader? :)

[mr.A]

Now that most expo line stations are under construction or completed, there is no sign of work to add turnstiles to metrotown. What is the scoop?

[GeeCee]

Now that most expo line stations are under construction or completed, there is no sign of work to add turnstiles to metrotown. What is the scoop?

Metrotown is going to be done separately since substantial station reconstruction will be required in order to accommodate the faregates.

[SpongeG]

omg the escalator at metrotown was down last weekend - both up and down had to squeeze on the narrow little stairway - it was like one slip and the whole row of people would have been taken out - it was that much of a crush - that station is awful can't handle the volume of people at all

[Dave2]

I've been looking at the plans for other M line stations... 6 gates at Renfrew, 7 at VCC Clark, but only 4 at Brentwood Town Centre? :whatthefuck:

[bardak]

I've been looking at the plans for other M line stations... 6 gates at Renfrew, 7 at VCC Clark, but only 4 at Brentwood Town Centre? :whatthefuck:

And its not as if there is a lack of space for fare gates at Brentwood:sly:.

[Meraki]

And its not as if there is a lack of space for fare gates at Brentwood:sly:.

It seems they're leaving the ticket machines where they are now and the space at the right between the machines and that storage room will be the gates. I can see why only 4 would fit there.

Putting 3 in front of the eastbound escalator and 3 in front of the westbound escalator would probably make more sense.

[Dave2]

It seems they're leaving the ticket machines where they are now and the space at the right between the machines and that storage room will be the gates. I can see why only 4 would fit there.

Putting 3 in front of the eastbound escalator and 3 in front of the westbound escalator would probably make more sense.

I expected that they were going to move all the ticket machines.. across to the west wall of the concourse. Are the gates only usable one direction at a time? (Given there's only one 'wide for wheelchair gate, *that* one must be bi-directional) but the other 3? People enter the station at a relatively constant rate, but only a few at a time. People *leave* the station only when the train arrives, but they leave all at once. I'd say at least 50 people alight at BTC e/b in the PM peak.. and we'll all have to use 2 gates?

I'll probably reply to this on "Day 1" of the gates... I hope I'm wrong.

[DKaz]

In Japan, they have a few uni-directional faregates off to the sides, but the middle ones are bi-directional to suit crowd requirements. Usually no problems, people usually sort themselves out automatically. They often only had one wide bi-directional faregate per exit, usually attended by personnel with an attached ticket booth who are around to 1. Help those through who require mobility assistance, 2. Assist those with ticketing issues, 3. Watch for jumpers. I found these wide gates odd as many of the older stations and even some newer ones in Japan don't have elevators or even escalators, although this is slowly changing. It's been 10 years since I've been there so there must be even more accessible stations now. I know Musashi-Koganei Station for example was in the process of being elevated (was ground level at the time) and there was obviously an elevator going in.

[Metro-One]

:previous:The only thing that worries me is this is not Japan.

In Japan people don't:

A. Stand in front of the door on the platform and try and jam their way in before anyone can exit the train.

B. Throw their garbage anywhere they like on the train

C. Try and scribble useless ugly tags on the windows / seats

So, I have very little faith that people in Metro-Vancouver will figure out how to use fair gates properly. It works beautifully in Japan, but that is because they have an organized, respectful society, here, not so much.

There better be attendants at every station now with these fair gates. In Japan they do that, and it really helps for first time users.

[ryanmaccdn]

:previous:The only thing that worries me is this is not Japan.

In Japan people don't:

A. Stand in front of the door on the platform and try and jam their way in before anyone can exit the train.

B. Throw their garbage anywhere they like on the train

C. Try and scribble useless ugly tags on the windows / seats

So, I have very little faith that people in Metro-Vancouver will figure out how to use fair gates properly. It works beautifully in Japan, but that is because they have an organized, respectful society, here, not so much.

There better be attendants at every station now with these fair gates. In Japan they do that, and it really helps for first time users.

Why would you want atttendants?

Thats like saying lets put drivers on the skytrain cars?!?

Nothing a couple of interactive PID's and a camera intercom system with 1 FT employee cant fix.

Maybe I could live with a few at Broadway/Ganville/Metro but thats it!

[aberdeen5698]

There better be attendants at every station now with these fair gates. In Japan they do that, and it really helps for first time users.The vast majority of riders are regular users, educating them will be the biggest issue. If they temporarily deploy attendants to all the stations during the first week that the gates go into service that should be enough to ensure a fairly smooth transition.

[Metro-One]

:previous:I would not be so sure....we have had trains for over 25 years now and they still don't understand the "let people exit first" concept of boarding trains.

[incognism]

:previous:I would not be so sure....we have had trains for over 25 years now and they still don't understand the "let people exit first" concept of boarding trains.

Nor have people figured out how to move to the back of the bus.

[deasine]

:previous:I would not be so sure....we have had trains for over 25 years now and they still don't understand the "let people exit first" concept of boarding trains.

Call me rude, but if they don't get out of the way, I just push through now.

[twoNeurons]

:previous:I would not be so sure....we have had trains for over 25 years now and they still don't understand the "let people exit first" concept of boarding trains.

I think they're getting better, though. It's really just education.

Announcements like this during rush hour would help:
"Incoming Train, please allow passengers to exit the train before getting on."

[Metro-One]

Call me rude, but if they don't get out of the way, I just push through now.

I do the exact same thing, in fact, once at waterfront arriving on the C-Line, the people were so rude pushing in not letting the train exit first (and the train was half full of people ready to exit!) that I extended my arms out the width of the train door and walked saying "Let people exit before your enter!"

I felt good about it after, hehe.

[nname]

I think they're getting better, though. It's really just education.

Announcements like this during rush hour would help:
"Incoming Train, please allow passengers to exit the train before getting on."

... and many people who are so concentrated on their phone and music that they can't hear the announcement and still stand in the way...

[Prometheus]

...we have had trains for over 25 years now and they still don't understand the "let people exit first" concept of boarding trains.

Is this really true? I can't believe this is true. If people stand in front of the door, then don't those people get smashed into as people exit the train? And wouldn't a single experience of this be enough to grasp the patently obvious? I have never used Skytrain (except once as a kid in 1986, when it was a novelty).

In Toronto, everybody stands to the sides. (Where else would a non-retarded person stand?) Also, everyone stands to the right when not actively climbing an escalator.

[SpongeG]

its bad, i see it everyday people stand right in the way they don't move to the side but they let people off - lol if they can get past the wall of people standing there its annoying

they really need to have some crowd control on the platform at broadway in the morning during the rush from like 7-9 am at least

i use it at that time and there is plently of staff hanging out on the street level doing nothing they aren't checking for fares they just stand there watching and talking to each other

get on the platform and do some crowd control at least

[Prometheus]

they really need to have some crowd control on the platform at broadway in the morning during the rush from like 7-9 am at least

i use it at that time and there is plently of staff hanging out on the street level doing nothing they aren't checking for fares they just stand there watching and talking to each other

Are these the same guys who are reportedly making $30 per hour, courtesy of the tax payers?

[twoNeurons]

its bad, i see it everyday people stand right in the way they don't move to the side but they let people off - lol if they can get past the wall of people standing there its annoying


It would help if we had consistent door openings. People get used to where they'd need to wait/stand and you could put floor markings. Vancouverites are actually really good at standing in line when they KNOW where to stand. Witness a bus boarding, most times, they will line up waiting for the bus, as opposed to sitting around milling around.

Yes, not everyone does, but the majority do.

I'm convinced that letting people off is less a problem of people pushing on, and more a problem of knowing where to be. When the train stops, people are in motion, all over the platform. They simply continue that motion when the train stops.

When things aren't predictable, little panic markers fire in the brain. Your survival instincts kick in and tell you... "GET ON THE TRAIN"

Okay, maybe I'm taking it a BIT far, but if you think about it, it DOES make sense. Unfortunately, until we retire the Expo Line trains, consistent stopping patterns are impossible.

[Dave2]

I think they're getting better, though. It's really just education.

Announcements like this during rush hour would help:
"Incoming Train, please allow passengers to exit the train before getting on."

That message is also printed on the doors... and on the 'crawl' on the LCD screens (law of Skytrain Physics), no effect, those of us who already do that don't need the reminders; those who insist on boarding at Commercial the second the doors open don't absorb the reminders.

(Joy, "Leave the MK-II windows closed, FFS" season is approaching. )

[Dave2]

>and many people who are so concentrated on their phone and music that they can't hear the announcement

True story, on the 135. bus full, the driver decided that the Main St stop would be in front of the Carnegie Centre instead of the Shaw theatre, Of course, someone freaked when we passed the normal stop, she didn't hear the driver's instructions and was stuck until Commercial. In hindsight, I tend to side with her, you expect the bus to stop at its normal stop. OTOH, many stops (eg, Davie and Burrard) do move sometimes.. LOL, the driver then got on the PA, and said, "If you can't hear my announcements, please remove your ear buds"....

[Dave2]

[QUOTE=Prometheus;5648373]Is this really true? I can't believe this is true. If people stand in front of the door, then don't those people get smashed into as people exit the train? And wouldn't a single experience of this be enough to grasp the patently obvious? I have never used Skytrain (except once as a kid in 1986, when it was a novelty).

To quote Madeline Kahn in Blazing Saddles, it's true, it's true. If I'm in the door, I'll step off, but many don't, even at Broadway. (and yes, I'm guilty of deliberately brushing against someone blocking the door of an MK-1.)

Which is why I can't see bi-directional paddle gates working.. If people can't walk on the #*&&@*@ right half of the mezzanine...

[Pinion]

Is this really true? I can't believe this is true. If people stand in front of the door, then don't those people get smashed into as people exit the train? And wouldn't a single experience of this be enough to grasp the patently obvious? I have never used Skytrain (except once as a kid in 1986, when it was a novelty).

In Toronto, everybody stands to the sides. (Where else would a non-retarded person stand?) Also, everyone stands to the right when not actively climbing an escalator.

It's not only true but happens nearly every time from my experience. When I worked evenings near Stadium station I'd say "please let people exit" then just lower my shoulders and plow through people as it was my only way of getting out of the station. If I wasn't a hefty guy I'm not sure what I would do.

Lack of basic consideration for fellow travellers is one of the main reasons why I succumbed and bought a car again after five years of public transit. As gas prices tick up I dread the idea of having to go back to it.

[DKaz]

I find Canada Line passengers to be the most courteous. At Waterfront Station I usually see 12 lineups to get onto the train, two for each door, on either side of the door. There's the rare occasion where you get one or multiple persons who can't grasp the simple concept of courtesy.

Expo/Millenium Line you don't see the same lineups but when you have four different types of train configuration it's hard to do so. Most people still let people off before they get on.

I do think this is blown a bit out of proportion, not like people who crowd the first half of the bus which I deal with on a DAILY BASIS.

[dreambrother808]

I do think this is blown a bit out of proportion, not like people who crowd the first half of the bus which I deal with on a DAILY BASIS.

Agreed. I find that people generally let others exit before entering. I tend not to travel at peak times though so maybe that is the distinction.

As for crowding the first half of the bus, I hate it when the driver repeatedly asks people to move to the back and they just stand there with blank looks on their faces or clinging to their position near the doors even though their stop is eons away. I abhor snobbery but at those moments I seriously worry about the intelligence of the general population in relation to my own. :haha:

[s211]

Announcements like this during rush hour would help:
"Incoming Train, please allow passengers to exit the train before getting on."

As long as the message is multi-lingual!

[SpongeG]

what i also run into - is when the train is so packed that people near the doors will step off the train to let people off but there are people in the way and they are pushing their way on at the same time so a person doing a good deed than has to push their way back on

[Mac Write]

I let people off first (when I can see people getting off, due to my vision it can look clear, but then someone is getting off). but then while I am doing that others are rushing in and the only seat I need as a disabled person is taken by that person who was rushing on before everyone gets off, so I sometimes have to get on (going around the people getting off) since I won't be able to get the seat. That really pisses me of. I am super polite (holding doors etc) yet I can't be on the SkyTrain.

Since the Canada Line only has one train stock, why not put markers not the platform for where the doors are? Or would people then ask for them for the SkyTrain as well?

[Metro-One]

:previous:If you are disabled then people sitting in the priority seats should get up for you, and if they don't, publicly humiliate them by pointing to the priority signs.

I always get up for disabled and elderly people, even if I am not in the priority seats.

And if there are discarded newspapers near where I am sitting, I always pick them up and put them in the recycling, Not very hard to do, but many here seem unable to master such civility.

I will admit that the Canada Line is finally getting better at letting people off first (taken a long time), but there are still too many rude individuals who don't understand such a simple rule, but the expo and M lines are hopeless.

[dleung]

Canada line users are generally wealthier.

[SpongeG]

lol good one

[Echowinds]

Canada Line also has a single train stock, so regulars kind of get where the doors will go even without markers. It helps somewhat in people organizing themselves.

I am personally more annoyed at people taking up two seats or people sitting on the outside while the inside seat is empty. Those people drive me nuts.

[crazyjoeda]

Pfft. SkyTrain riders are far better at letting people exit the trains first than people in many other cities I have visited.

Munich has the rudest people. Once I was boarding a train at the end of the line so lots of people were exiting and many more were preparing to board; every one was pushing and shoving each other as some tried to exit while others tried to board. Munich has a much larger metro system than Vancouver and that wasn't an isolated incident it happens all the time.

Paris and London during rush hour can be just as bad.

I'm not saying SkyTrain riders in Vancouver couldn't be better but we are far from the worst.

[SpongeG]

they look polite on this video - today as i was trying to get get off some woman stood in the middle of the door opening on the platform about 1 foot away from the door with a baby pusher thing and didn't move and everyone trying to get off had to figure their way around her plus the other people lined up to get on most were at least to teh side but it was quite hard when so many are trying to disembark and there isn't much space at all

sidenote: i miss how all the ads at the stations were for the olympics - they were really cool and nicely designed... I am loving the mascot ones in particular

xNFuzgLi590

[cornholio]

Pfft. SkyTrain riders are far better at letting people exit the trains first than people in many other cities I have visited.

Munich has the rudest people. Once I was boarding a train at the end of the line so lots of people were exiting and many more were preparing to board; every one was pushing and shoving each other as some tried to exit while others tried to board. Munich has a much larger metro system than Vancouver and that wasn't an isolated incident it happens all the time.

Paris and London during rush hour can be just as bad.

I'm not saying SkyTrain riders in Vancouver couldn't be better but we are far from the worst.

I agree. Its not so bad here, I have seen much worse. Sao Paulo for one is horrible, their subway system is relatively small and new and way over capacity. The people are used to rushing everywhere and having to squeeze through crowds due to the layout of the city and no one clears the doors, every time its a battle to get off, luckily its acceptable to push through people. The fact that there always seems to be what I call "chicken people" from the poor north or from Bolivia or what ever who dont know how to doge people and deal with crowds doesnt help. There is a technique to moving through crowds, pushing your way through where other people can pick up on where your trying to go etc.

Two things they have done in Sao Paulo to help this is install metal funnel type railings to funnel people safely towards the doors but they stop about half a meter short of the platform so this allows people getting off to oftentimes cut right or left once they get out the door and avoid most of the crowd trying to get in. The other thing is using two platforms, one for getting off with the doors opening a few seconds before the ones for people getting on.

Hard to implement this in Vancouver with different length trains but like I said Vancouver is pretty good, based on my experiences (fairly limited in the last little while) Vancouver is better then average, the commuters are pretty good imo.

[crazyjoeda]

I've noticed that fare gate installation is quite far along at most Canada Line stations. You can now see exactly where the gates will be.

Am I the only one who thinks this will be a complete disaster?

I've always been against the fare gates because I believe the upfront and maintenance costs are higher that the lost ticket revenue.

Now I think the worst part is that most stations will have only three gates to exit, which won't come close to being sufficient. The escalators and stairs at some stations have difficulty handling current crowds. Constricting the exits at busy stations like Waterfront and City Centre will likely cause serious safety concerns.

The London underground typically has 10-20 fare gates for their smaller stations and still have congested exits.

I'm sure our fare gates will likely remain open and unused during peak periods.

[LeftCoaster]

Many stations on the Toronto subway have only 4-5 exits and those service full metro cars with ~1000 person capacities.

I ride them to the financial district every day at rush hour and have never experienced any real issues.

[Vancouver_Highrise]

You guys should all be thankful for our skytrain riders regarding letting people in and out of the train. If you want to see some rude pushy people go to Australia.. Brisbane/Gold Coast airtrain is the worst. I got to the point where I would just walk right into people because they wouldn't let me get off the train... Australians in general are rude though... :shrug:

[WarrenC12]

The London underground typically has 10-20 fare gates for their smaller stations and still have congested exits.

I'm sure our fare gates will likely remain open and unused during peak periods.

Not sure where you get that info re: London. I was there a few times last summer and smaller stations have as few as 1 incoming faregate (vs 2 outgoing, and they can switch). There was sometimes a line but it moves quickly.

[crazyjoeda]

Not sure where you get that info re: London. I was there a few times last summer and smaller stations have as few as 1 incoming faregate (vs 2 outgoing, and they can switch). There was sometimes a line but it moves quickly.

I've lived in London.

Pretty much ever underground station I've been in has more than ten gates; many of the suburban rail stations have only three or four but are left open during rush hour.

Three exiting gates may be sufficient for stations like King Edward or Olympic Village, but any major station or transfer point will likely see unacceptable congestion at exits during peak periods. I know this because its already difficult to get out of City Centre station; exiting the station will become a very bad experience if passengers are forced to exit through just three gates. Undoubtably some people will stop to fumble for their pass or tickets and the gates will reject some tickets and breakdown occasionally.

I'm frustrated just thinking about it!
I'm all for making sure people pay the fare and I hope the fare gates provide the opportunity for a fair pricing structure.

I hope I'm wrong and it all works smoothly but I doubt it will.

[aberdeen5698]

I know this because its already difficult to get out of City Centre stationThe bottleneck at pretty much all of the Skytrain stations is essentially the escalators (and to a lesser degree the stairs). As long as they have enough gates to handle the same flow rate as the escalators and stairs then they'll be fine.

[cc85]

The TTC only has a few fare gates on their subway system, usually two-three gates going each way and they are able to handle much larger crowds.

[incognism]

Undoubtably some people will stop to fumble for their pass or tickets and the gates will reject some tickets and breakdown occasionally.

Ugh, I hate this excuse. People in this city need to grow up and act like a functional adult.

Since it's NFC, all people need to be able to do is take their wallet out of their purse/pocket and make sure that they have sufficient funds on their card before they reach the gate.

You'd think that should be fairly simple, considering millions of people in other cities are able to complete this simple task on a daily basis.

It's time for this city to stop coddling its citizens and force them to accept some responsibility on their end.

[s211]

Ugh, I hate this excuse. People in this city need to grow up and act like a functional adult.

Since it's NFC, all people need to be able to do is take their wallet out of their purse/pocket and make sure that they have sufficient funds on their card before they reach the gate.

You'd think that should be fairly simple, considering millions of people in other cities are able to complete this simple task on a daily basis.

It's time for this city to stop coddling its citizens and force them to accept some responsibility on their end.

THANK YOU! :cheers:

[aberdeen5698]

Since it's NFC, all people need to be able to do is take their wallet out of their purse/pocket and make sure that they have sufficient funds on their card before they reach the gate.As anyone who's worked in a building that has a contactless card access system can attest, people learn very quickly to have their card out and ready to wave at the reader so as to expedite their progress. The same thing will happen with the Compass card.

[WBC]

As anyone who's worked in a building that has a contactless card access system can attest, people learn very quickly to have their card out and ready to wave at the reader so as to expedite their progress. The same thing will happen with the Compass card.

The ones that commute every day will. However, even today a lot of people have lack of social awareness to do something relatively simple such as being ready to validate a faresaver. I have seen countless times people step up to the validating machine then start fumbling through the purse looking for a booklet, then tearing off the faresaver then fumbling around trying to validate it. They lack the social awareness to do that beforehand or at least to step aside and get ready for validation. Sorry to stereotype, but women are particularly bad at this and are more likely than men to block the passengers at leaving the trains.

I am particularly concerned with Metrotown station and the new gates as this station is a gong show at best of times. If they do not substantially change the station design before introducing gates it will be a disaster.

[WBC]

As anyone who's worked in a building that has a contactless card access system can attest, people learn very quickly to have their card out and ready to wave at the reader so as to expedite their progress. The same thing will happen with the Compass card.

Yes but those people have jobs...I am worried about those then don't.... :jester:

[jlousa]

The example with the fare validators isn't completely valid though as they aren't being used by everyone around you so you have to figure out what to do on your own. Humans are able to mimic others quite easily. When you see everyone in front of you doing something you no longer have that problem.
I trust that after the first week or so we'll adapt nicely.

[aberdeen5698]

The ones that commute every day will.That's the substantial majority, so it will take care of most of the problem.

However, even today a lot of people have lack of social awareness to do something relatively simple such as being ready to validate a faresaver.I hear you. You see this in store line-ups where people don't bother to even open their purse until they clerk tells them how much they owe. It's like they can't anticipate the need until they have no other choice.

Nonetheless, in transit terms I don't think it's all that big a problem. You can get an idea of the magnitude of it by watching people board a bus and pay for their fare or validate their faresaver. The vast majority of them do it quite efficiently, it's only a pretty small minority - perhaps around 10% - that fumble.

[SpongeG]

speaking of fare evasion, most of the time when i see the security come onto the train to check tickets it seems 99% of the time its women who are caught without proof of fare, i was just on the train yesterday and they caught two and took em off the train, both of them women

[DKaz]

In Tokyo, I always left my Suica IO Card in my wallet. Just once or twice in a month the card didn't read properly and I held up the line a couple of seconds to remove the card from the wallet to directly touch the reader. It was no worse than the magnetic stripe reader for non cash fares and older style commuter cards, those things took 2 seconds at least. At least it spit out the ticket on the other side of the gate so you didn't really have to stop, just slow down, but the person behind couldn't insert the ticket until the person in front's ticket was retrieved.

[aberdeen5698]

It was no worse than the magnetic stripe reader for non cash fares and older style commuter cards, those things took 2 seconds at least....or up to 10 seconds if the person using it can't figure out which way it's supposed to go into the reader. That's a huge benefit to contactless cards - there's usually no "wrong" way to hold it.

[Pinion]

Considering how many people I see struggling to figure out how to use the turnstiles at the seabus (which are purely for counting purposes), I find anything other than "it will be a complete clusterfuck" hard to believe.

[WBC]

Considering how many people I see struggling to figure out how to use the turnstiles at the seabus (which are purely for counting purposes), I find anything other than "it will be a complete clusterfuck" hard to believe.

Yup. Especially in non commuter times. For example, when Metrotown mall empties on the weekend. Or when shoppers and commuters start to mingle at 5pm. Not all the stations, but some will be. But we shall see...At least we might get rid of bums on trains.

[Vestry]

At least we might get rid of bums on trains.

It really won't. As anyone in New York or Chicago can tell you: turnstile jumpin ain't no thang.

[crazyjoeda]

Fare evasion could be all but eliminated at no additional costs to TransLink with some simple policy changes. First, all attendants and transit cops should ask everyone they see for a proof of a valid fare. I usually see attendants and the transit police just hanging out and I understand their role as a security presence but they should also be checking fares. Second, failure to pay fare evasion fines should carry the same punishments as failure to pay a speeding ticket, which I believe is quite a serious offence.

[Dave2]

Ticket Machines at Brentwood were moved out of the entranceway to the east wall between the escalators today (April 13)... I still think having only three faregates + 1 "wide" faregate is going to be a bottleneck.

[ryanmaccdn]

Clearly Cubic or whomever is installing these units has a huge track record of doing these type of things in many of the busiest metro's around the world. So I think it would be safe to say they have a calculation of how many people per gate can handle ect during rush times.

I agree with the previous poster.... Toronto at best has 4 gates going one direction at large downtown stations. On top of that this new NFC system should eliminate slow-downs due to its tag and go nature.

Let's look at the Metrotown argument... Metrotown and Yorkdale malls are pretty similar in many ways. Traffic, location to major metro station.... If my memory serves me they have only 2 entrance gates and maybe 3 exit gates at any given time.

They seem to have things under control.

The only argument I could see with Metrotown becoming a cluster f*ck would be its layout... but that should be fixed with the reno.

We chose a system that has a proven track record, is as low maintenance as possible and is a very independent.

Given the fact that pretty much all Metro system in density growing cities have faregates it was inevitable.

Also the argument of having the transit cops/skytrain attendants checking every single ticket isn't possible... maybe in China that sorta pressure for employees fly's but I don't see anyone 30+ yr old union employee holding the diligence to do the work needed for that.

[Dave2]

Clearly Cubic or whomever is installing these units has a huge track record of doing these type of things in many of the busiest metro's around the world. So I think it would be safe to say they have a calculation of how many people per gate can handle ect during rush times.

I agree with the previous poster.... Toronto at best has 4 gates going one direction at large downtown stations. On top of that this new NFC system should eliminate slow-downs due to its tag and go nature.

Let's look at the Metrotown argument... Metrotown and Yorkdale malls are pretty similar in many ways. Traffic, location to major metro station.... If my memory serves me they have only 2 entrance gates and maybe 3 exit gates at any given time.

They seem to have things under control.

The only argument I could see with Metrotown becoming a cluster f*ck would be its layout... but that should be fixed with the reno.

We chose a system that has a proven track record, is as low maintenance as possible and is a very independent.

Given the fact that pretty much all Metro system in density growing cities have faregates it was inevitable.

Also the argument of having the transit cops/skytrain attendants checking every single ticket isn't possible... maybe in China that sorta pressure for employees fly's but I don't see anyone 30+ yr old union employee holding the diligence to do the work needed for that.

Time will tell.... 6 gates at Renfrew, 7 at VCC Clark, but only 4 at Brentwood seems odd ... given that there's room for more if the ticket machines were moved. If they're unidirectional, one "entry" gate will probably suffice, leaving 3 exit gates to serve the PM rush crowds. I'd like to see ridership numbers at Brentwood, it's anecdotal, but in the 7 years since I moved to Brentwood the platforms are noticeably busier.. .. One useful change, the 4 MK-1 units changed where they stop, so there's two paths to the exit stairs instead of one... that tweak only took 10 years...

[allan_kuan]

I think that... the station layouts, and not necessarily the station capacity and usage numbers, are being used to determine how many fare-gates are put in.

I mean... VCC Clark, the station that I usually use a lot, will have two separate rows of faregates for each platform, with three gates per row. This is because the main entrance is too narrow for a central bank of faregates.

Compare to say Brentwood, which is a heck of a lot busier but only has four gates being installed? That's probably because the gates are going in where the shared entrance for both platforms is. Sounds cheap, but it'll probably frustrate people on the day it becomes active.

[Metro-One]

:previous:I was talking to one of the attendants on the Canada Line today about only installing 5 gates at Broadway, and he said that they will be using the 3 month trial period to test and see if more gates are needed.
Thats what he told me, if it is true, we will find out later.

[Jimbo604]

"Faregates at two SkyTrain stations fall victim to TransLink budget squeeze"
Province newspaper article (http://www.theprovince.com/news/Faregates+SkyTrain+stations+fall+victim+TransLink+budget+squeeze/6473975/story.html)
By SUSAN LAZARUK, The Province April 17, 2012 1:29 PM

Fare gates at Main Street and Metrotown stations put on hold until more funds are found following the rejection of fare hike and a property tax raise. The funds are needed, apparently, because of the extensive renovations required at these two stations in order to accommodate fare gates.

[st7860]

oops! main street+metrotown station won't have faregates because there's no funding available.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/TransLink+postponing+some+expansion+plans+lack+funding/6473344/story.html

[deasine]

"Faregates at two SkyTrain stations fall victim to TransLink budget squeeze"
Province newspaper article (http://www.theprovince.com/news/Faregates+SkyTrain+stations+fall+victim+TransLink+budget+squeeze/6473975/story.html)
By SUSAN LAZARUK, The Province April 17, 2012 1:29 PM

Fare gates at Main Street and Metrotown stations put on hold until more funds are found following the rejection of fare hike and a property tax raise. The funds are needed, apparently, because of the extensive renovations required at these two stations in order to accommodate fare gates.

That's sort of twisting the facts to make the point. I mean, would you want TransLink to install fare gates now and have to rip them off after station renovations?

[officedweller]

You will still have to "tap on" tap off" at Main Street and Metrotown:

Upgrades for several SkyTrain stations, including Main Street, Surrey Central and Metrotown, as well as Lonsdale Quay, to provide more capacity and to install faregates as part of TransLink's $171-million faregate system, which will roll out next year, are also affected. Jarvis noted two stations -- Metrotown and Main Street -- won't have faregates when the program starts next year because they require significant upgrades and there's no money available, although he said this was intentional.

'The stations, which will be upgraded when the money is available, will, however, have readers for the Compass cards, which can be used to access all transit services including buses, SkyTrain, West Coast Express and SeaBus.

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/TransLink+postponing+some+expansion+plans+lack+funding+with+video/6473344/story.html#ixzz1sLS13OcH

[Jimbo604]

Seems a bit odd that this wasn't mentioned up until today, right before the fare gates are to be installed in May, don't you think?

[Metro-One]

:previous:I think the reason for that is all the local children, i mean mayors, have once again turned their back on helping to fund translink, therefore eradicating the money needed to properly renovate Metrotown and Main Street stations.

Pisses me off really.

and this recent move is only going to make relations between the cities worse. Now that it looks like the Evergreen Line is going through for sure (the key phrase here is "Looks Like") the mayors north of the Fraser have now turned their backs on those south of the Fraser, taking away all of their new bus hours and rapid buses.

So the question is, does anyone really expect cooperation from south of the river come Broadway extension time now???

Short answer, nope!

All transit power / funding should be taken out of the mayor's hands and firmly with the province alone, but then, the province seems no better at times.

Oh well, thank you mayors for a half completed fare gate system!

[s211]

:previous:I think the reason for that is all the local children, i mean mayors, have once again turned their back on helping to fund translink, therefore eradicating the money needed to properly renovate Metrotown and Main Street stations.

Pisses me off really.

and this recent move is only going to make relations between the cities worse. Now that it looks like the Evergreen Line is going through for sure (the key phrase here is "Looks Like") the mayors north of the Fraser have now turned their backs on those south of the Fraser, taking away all of their new bus hours and rapid buses.

So the question is, does anyone really expect cooperation from south of the river come Broadway extension time now???

Short answer, nope!

All transit power / funding should be taken out of the mayor's hands and firmly with the province alone, but then, the province seems no better at times.

Oh well, thank you mayors for a half completed fare gate system!

You'd to think that the mayors are just playing high stakes poker/blackmail. "Give us money, or you won't get yours."

[bardak]

:previous:I think the reason for that is all the local children, i mean mayors, have once again turned their back on helping to fund translink, therefore eradicating the money needed to properly renovate Metrotown and Main Street stations.

Pisses me off really.

and this recent move is only going to make relations between the cities worse. Now that it looks like the Evergreen Line is going through for sure (the key phrase here is "Looks Like") the mayors north of the Fraser have now turned their backs on those south of the Fraser, taking away all of their new bus hours and rapid buses.

So the question is, does anyone really expect cooperation from south of the river come Broadway extension time now???

Short answer, nope!

All transit power / funding should be taken out of the mayor's hands and firmly with the province alone, but then, the province seems no better at times.

Oh well, thank you mayors for a half completed fare gate system!

This isn't just the mayors. The province is just as much to blame for shooting down funding option before the report is even finished.