[Simpseatles]

I thought it would be interesting to see what people think about how well represented our city is across the country, North America, and even the World. What can we do to make it a more well known place?

Hell, for being Canada's 10th largest, my perception is that people in Canada (outside of SW Ontario) are barely aware of us, and would probably guess that we are not that big of a city.

Is this something we are cursed to live with (are we just too boring, and irrelevant to the rest of the country?), or is there something we can do to make sure that people are a little more knowledgeable about this great city! What are tourists currently attracted to, and what could we do to bring more? What about attracting immigrants, younger people, and jobs through a better perception of our city?:)

[Cambridgite]

Move London several hours away from Toronto, maybe into a different province, and it will be well known. For a lot of people out-of-province, Southern Ontario = Toronto, and there's not much that can be done about that. You can build a great skyline, have a bustling street scene, but it wouldn't make a difference.

Just down the road, even closer to Toronto, KWC is attracting more immigrants, more jobs, young people, etc, yet we have the same problem as you guys, only worse. For what it's worth, when you turn off to go westbound on the 401 from Mississauga, the sign still says "401 WEST LONDON".

Move our SWO cities out to Atlantic Canada and they'll dominate.

[Kokkei Mizu]

First off, even though London is the 10th largest metropolitan area in Canada, Canada's largest city is Toronto with only 3,000,000 people. Canada's entire population is comparable to the populations of some of the world's cities. I don't think London is that big of a city, but at the same time it is.

Also, I think when people think of SW Ontario, they mainly think of rich farm land, and small villages like Sparta, Ontario. That may be beneficial for London to advertise these unique qualities of SW Ontario, because guess where these tourists will be staying the night? London, most likely.

[Blitz]

I bet the average Canadian has no clue that London is the 10th biggest metro in the country. I agree that the problem is the proximity to Toronto. London is a very important regional centre but it's a relatively small region and I don't know how far east it extends (probably not much further than Woodstock) since I'm guessing people in Kitchener-Waterloo associate more with Toronto....not entirely sure about that though.
From my experiences living in both cities, I think people across Canada are actually more familiar with Windsor even though it's smaller than London.

[Cambridgite]

I bet the average Canadian has no clue that London is the 10th biggest metro in the country.

Possibly the 11th largest. We'll see when the 2011 census is released. ;)

I agree that the problem is the proximity to Toronto. London is a very important regional centre but it's a relatively small region and I don't know how far east it extends (probably not much further than Woodstock) since I'm guessing people in Kitchener-Waterloo associate more with Toronto....not entirely sure about that though.

I think it's fair to say that KW's relationship to Toronto is stronger, as it's half the distance from it than London is. In the same way, I'm sure London has more to do with Toronto than Windsor does.

Southwestern Ontario is really split between 3 major regional centres.

- Windsor is the hub of extreme southwestern Ontario.

- London is the hub for the geographical centre of SWO.

- KWC is the hub for the midwestern Ontario region, that transitional zone between SWO and the GTA. Brantford and Guelph also share that limelight to some extent as well (moreso Guelph...Brantford is a dump).

Once you start moving more than half an hour away from these cities, SWO is a pretty rural place with a very conservative identity. Even other centres like Woodstock, Sarnia, Owen Sound, etc, are like their own little world.

[haljackey]

..Brantford is a dump

Hey! Have you been to Brantford recently? They've been doing an amazing job restoring the city to its former "glory", especially in the downtown area. In my opinion they're doing better than London's downtown revitalization efforts, which can be expressed as mediocre at best.

London's metro will almost certainly be #11 by the time the 2011 census is out. Currently, it's #11 in terms of it's urban area population which in my opinion represents out city's population more appropriately than the metro stat.

In fact, I think urban area works better in most cases, unless you have a lot of decently sized towns and cities around the principal city like Greater Toronto or Waterloo Region (Kitchener CMA). I've stated many times that I think London's metro is a joke and shouldn't be used.

People know Windsor more because it's at the edge of the country and is an important boarder crossing. It gets a lot more tourism from American tourists that just want to step foot in Canada, travelers who want to take a break as the cross the boarder or the draw that their huge casino attracts to the city. Most people in London go to Windsor to get their gambling fix because it's the closest "major" casino to London. (London has some slots, Sarina and Brantford have a small casinos.)

In addition, people from Toronto-GTA will visit K-W more than London to experience "small city life" because it's simply closer to Toronto and has more character. One could argue German influences helped here. :P Most international tourists will only hit Niagara Falls-Toronto and Ottawa on their journey, completely bypassing southwest Ontario.

Most out-of-towners come to London just to shop... they really don't do much more here. Sure they might go to a bar or watch the hockey game but that's about it. I'm not sure what more Tourism London can do to put London on the map or make it more tourist friendly but the downtown Revitalization is a start. Making the Wellington corridor more attractive will make the drive from the 401 to downtown more appealing. Simply adding medians and putting flowers in them is a start... does wonders for the city image.

[go_leafs_go02]

I remember being in Port Huron, MI waiting to board a train to Chicago several years back, and even some locals there (raised in Port Huron) had never even heard of London, Ontario.

I was shocked.

[go_leafs_go02]

Just build some skyscrapers that are visible from the 401/Wellington and you should be able to change the mentality.

[MolsonExport]

There really is buttfuckall to do here, except shop (and if this is the case, take an extra hour or so and go to Toronto). Theatre/culture and restaurants? Stratford competes (and beats on the former). London is a nice place to live, without very much at all to attract visitors.

[manny_santos]

London has focused a lot on improving the visual appeal of certain access points in the city, most notably Wellington Street. However they have not focused on rail or air travelers arriving in London.

With respect to air, when you leave YXU and start driving towards the CBD, it's a pretty drab looking drive along Oxford Street, at least until you get to Fanshawe College. I have no problem with driving through industrial development, but the Oxford corridor just really leaves a lot to be desired, and I think it's a pretty lousy first impression for someone arriving in London by air. A possible solution is beautification of Oxford Street from the airport to Oxford Street, with a median and trees. Oxford Street East should be one of London's key entrance-ways, and there's more to it than building a Stonehenge at VMP.

With respect to rail, I've been on VIA trains coming into London from Toronto. The corridor coming from Stratford is okay and the one coming from Windsor/Sarnia is nice, but the one coming from Woodstock goes through some pretty lousy-looking areas between downtown and VMP. I'm not sure what specifically could be done about that, but as it stands now rail travelers coming into London from Toronto via Woodstock are greeted by junk yards and abandoned buildings.

[manny_santos]

Also, I think when people think of SW Ontario, they mainly think of rich farm land, and small villages like Sparta, Ontario. That may be beneficial for London to advertise these unique qualities of SW Ontario, because guess where these tourists will be staying the night? London, most likely.

I once described London to someone as being located "about halfway between Delaware and Thamesford".

[manny_santos]

I remember being in Port Huron, MI waiting to board a train to Chicago several years back, and even some locals there (raised in Port Huron) had never even heard of London, Ontario.

I was shocked.

That really surprises me, and I think that's just ignorance on their part. If they watch any TV stations from Detroit, London is sometimes mentioned on the weather maps, and I've heard those forecasters even mention the weather in London, Ontario.

I would still bet Erie, PA is probably the U.S. city where you're most likely to find someone who knows of London. FM96 reportedly has a cult following there, and their local PBS station identifies itself as "Erie-London". When I was younger WQLN sometimes ran promos for Storybook Gardens and the London Children's Museum after Sesame Street, especially during pledge drives; I also occasionally saw Southwestern Ontario-themed contests on that station. There's also the OHL connection as Erie has the Erie Otters OHL team; Channel 24 in Erie used to broadcast Otters games on weekends, and sometimes it was the Knights who were in town.

[Blitz]

I think it's fair to say that KW's relationship to Toronto is stronger, as it's half the distance from it than London is.

As an example of London's role as regional centre, people across the area from Windsor to Owen Sound are sent to London hospitals for major surgeries or other health ailments. Are people in Kitchener and Brantford also sent to London or are they sent elsewhere?

Regarding the road gateways, Wellington Road between Highway 401 and Commissioners Road is an embarrassment particularly with all the crappy fences along the east side of Wellington. I know they've improved the look of Wellington leading into downtown but more work is needed further south.

[Highinthesky]

Isn't much of the recent growth in the kw area attributed to the fact that it is located so close to the GTA?

[Simpseatles]

I think one of our problems with bringing in visitors is that our "tourist attractions" are all spread out across the city.

Springbank Park is way the hell in the suburbs (although I dream of the day when commisioners road in Byron is high density condos with nice shops all facing the park!), the Regiment is worth a visit, but is not too close to downtown, the Pioneer Village is in the middle of nowhere, the Native Village too. There's even a Radar museum here, which is hiding behind Packwood Hospital off a crummy pothole road, beside some seedy, abandoned buildings!:haha:

That leaves the museum (which I enjoy whenever I go), and the whole Forks water-fountain which was excellent idea, the Grand Theatre, Victoria Park, The Market, and the Convention Centre which are all in downtown. Oh, and Banting House is almost.

I guess that's not a terrible list of attractions downtown, but combine that with the fact that most visitors are only here for brief periods, our downtown still needs a lot more work to be Toronto elite worthy, and there's only 2 blobs of hotels in the city. Wellington/401 and Downtown (the seedy 50's era motels on Dundas hardly count!)

Perhaps if more hotels were located in other sections of the city that are still convienient for visitors, it could help.

[Cambridgite]

Hey! Have you been to Brantford recently? They've been doing an amazing job restoring the city to its former "glory", especially in the downtown area. In my opinion they're doing better than London's downtown revitalization efforts, which can be expressed as mediocre at best.

While the architecture leaves much to be desired, London has several highrise buildings under construction, proposed, or recently completed. What does Brantford have going on?

Brantford just has a satellite (Laurier) campus and some small infill. There are still silouettes of people on their boarded up storefronts and 2 city blocks were recently demolished because they were fire hazards.

London's metro will almost certainly be #11 by the time the 2011 census is out. Currently, it's #11 in terms of it's urban area population which in my opinion represents out city's population more appropriately than the metro stat.

In fact, I think urban area works better in most cases, unless you have a lot of decently sized towns and cities around the principal city like Greater Toronto or Waterloo Region (Kitchener CMA). I've stated many times that I think London's metro is a joke and shouldn't be used.

I would generally agree, especially for the purposes of calculating density. However, Statscan does use specific rules for drawing its CMA boundaries based on commuting patterns.

In addition, people from Toronto-GTA will visit K-W more than London to experience "small city life" because it's simply closer to Toronto and has more character. One could argue German influences helped here. :P Most international tourists will only hit Niagara Falls-Toronto and Ottawa on their journey, completely bypassing southwest Ontario.

Does it have more character? That's a tough judgement call. I'd say they're far more similar to each other than they are to any other city in Ontario. Even the housing stock looks similar, both core and suburbs.

Neither are particularly eye catching compared to other smaller cities like Kingston, Guelph, Victoria, Halifax, St. John's, etc. Not even good or bad...just, nondescript.

Most out-of-towners come to London just to shop... they really don't do much more here. Sure they might go to a bar or watch the hockey game but that's about it. I'm not sure what more Tourism London can do to put London on the map or make it more tourist friendly but the downtown Revitalization is a start. Making the Wellington corridor more attractive will make the drive from the 401 to downtown more appealing. Simply adding medians and putting flowers in them is a start... does wonders for the city image.

Removing the metal trees from the downtown streetscape would be a start. Putting real trees in would be even better. :P

Not sure what you can do about the 'highway stop' area off Wellington and the 401. Sure, it's ugly like Hespeler Road, but it fulfills a function and isn't designed for much else. Still, it is the downtown core that really defines a city in most cases.

[Cambridgite]

As an example of London's role as regional centre, people across the area from Windsor to Owen Sound are sent to London hospitals for major surgeries or other health ailments. Are people in Kitchener and Brantford also sent to London or are they sent elsewhere?

A lot of times they are sent to London or Hamilton. Although with the Grand River Hospital expansion, the UW school of pharmacy, and the AFGA Healthcare headquarters locating in the region, hopefully that's changing.

Isn't much of the recent growth in the kw area attributed to the fact that it is located so close to the GTA?

Anecdotally, that seems to be the only reason a lot of outsiders can imagine why KW is growing. Mostly because it is the least known-about city in Canada. And you guys think you have an identity problem? :haha:

But if that were the case, there would be a lot more growth taking place in St. Catharines, Brantford, Peterborough, etc. Barrie is the only other fast growing city that's the same distance from Toronto. Hamilton is 40km closer to Toronto and it is growing at about the same pace as London.

[Simpseatles]

I think our name plays into it a little bit as well.

Either we finally change our name to Londonontariocanada, or we come up with a completley new one!( I believe someone mentioned this before)

You guys in Kitchener are lucky, you got to change your name because of zee Germans!:haha:
Would heve been funny to look at a map back in the day and see London, Berlin, and smaller places that have kept their names like Paris, Vienna, and Zurich!

[haljackey]

We better have some sort of opening ceremonies at TD Waterhouse Stadium when the Olympics come to London. That would be pretty cool, and we might even attract some international attention.

Although sharing a name with one of the most recognizable cities on earth has it's advantages, there are way more disadvantages.

Try searching for something in London on Google. Nearly everything is from the UK, even when you click the "Canada only" icon, which is only good for text searches.

[kwoldtimer]

I don't know if you need to change the name. Maybe just a catchy slogan, like "London! (no, the other one)". ;)

[haljackey]

In addition, London's Wikipedia article is crap. I have no idea how it managed to achieve "Good Article" status. It baffles me. Compare it to the articles of any other major city in Canada and you'll notice the difference.

The article suffers from poor wording, ineffective citations and contains many images that contribute little to the article. I've seen some great pictures here that would significantly aid the article.

As long as the creators are fine with releasing the rights of the photos, get them on Wikipedia!

[ForestryW]

I tried posting another forumer's photo on London's wiki article once (with his permission, and now I can't remember who it was). The wikitators kept deleting it for "copyright violation." I eventually gave up.

[haljackey]

Ya, it's gotta be your own photo or prove you have the rights to upload it.

For example: OTRS. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:OTRS

[go_leafs_go02]

I don't know if you need to change the name. Maybe just a catchy slogan, like "London! (no, the other one)". ;)

Westjet advertisement on a bus from last year

Spring 2009 in Vancouver:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/go_leafs_go02/6730_547196739097_290602844_2923383_7055368_n.jpg

And it's my own picture.

[Snark]

Westjet advertisement on a bus from last year

Spring 2009 in Vancouver:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/go_leafs_go02/6730_547196739097_290602844_2923383_7055368_n.jpg

And it's my own picture.

How about a new advert: London: well at least eight people on one street didn't get shot yesterday (and got away with it).

[Highinthesky]

A lot of times they are sent to London or Hamilton. Although with the Grand River Hospital expansion, the UW school of pharmacy, and the AFGA Healthcare headquarters locating in the region, hopefully that's changing.



Anecdotally, that seems to be the only reason a lot of outsiders can imagine why KW is growing. Mostly because it is the least known-about city in Canada. And you guys think you have an identity problem? :haha:

But if that were the case, there would be a lot more growth taking place in St. Catharines, Brantford, Peterborough, etc. Barrie is the only other fast growing city that's the same distance from Toronto. Hamilton is 40km closer to Toronto and it is growing at about the same pace as London.

Sorry but I'm just not buying what you're selling. Places like Brantford and St Catharines have been growing very quickly over the past 25 years. Places like Peterborough are a poor comparison due to them being over twice as far away. Hamilton is already a large city which could be contributing to the growth in the KW area. Simple measurement of course can be that if population growth has far our paced job growth in KW then I think it would be fair to say its not all natural growth.

[Cambridgite]

Sorry but I'm just not buying what you're selling. Places like Brantford and St Catharines have been growing very quickly over the past 25 years. Places like Peterborough are a poor comparison due to them being over twice as far away. Hamilton is already a large city which could be contributing to the growth in the KW area. Simple measurement of course can be that if population growth has far our paced job growth in KW then I think it would be fair to say its not all natural growth.

No one's forcing you to 'buy' it. Maybe you're one of those people who puts anecdotal evidence above statistical evidence. Suit yourself.

Statistics Canada Community Profiles: Growth rates for 2001-2006 by CMA

http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/prof/92-591/index.cfm?Lang=E

St. Catharines-Niagara: 3.5%
Hamilton: 4.6%
Peterborough: 5.1%
London: 5.1%
Brantford: 5.5%
Kitchener: 8.9%

Peterborough over twice as far? Only if you're mixing up KW with Milton.

Distance from Peterborough to Toronto: 138km in travel distance (1 hour, 45min)

From the bottom of the page, with google maps.
http://distancecalculator.globefeed.com/Canada_Distance_Result.asp?fromplace=Peterborough (Ontario)&toplace=Toronto (Ontario)&fromlat=44.300121277&tolat=43.700113788&fromlng=-78.316233062&tolng=-79.416304194

Distance from Cambridge to Toronto: 95.3 km in travel distance (1 hour and 9 minutes)
Distance from Waterloo to Toronto: 115km in travel distance (1 hour, 29 minutes)

It's longer, but nowhere near "double" as you put it. But of course, 95-115km, with half of it in gridlock, is just a hop, skip, and a jump, right? ;)

As for employment and population growth, I'm not sure where to find the exact number, but the area is well known for its huge growth in high-tech, insurance, logistics, etc. The area is still a net importer of employment.

Even if it was the case that population growth is far outpacing job growth, what is that even evidence of? Mississauga has tens of thousands more people commuting into it than out of it, and it's definitely a suburb.

http://www.mississauga.ca/file/COM/2008LabourandEmployment.pdf

[Simpseatles]

Westjet advertisement on a bus from last year

Spring 2009 in Vancouver:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/go_leafs_go02/6730_547196739097_290602844_2923383_7055368_n.jpg

And it's my own picture.

Ha! That's awesome!:cheers:

These direct WestJet flights to Vancouver, Calgary, and Winnipeg must be doing something to help our image across Canada. I hope they continue and our airport prospers so that travelling to and from London is more convienient for Londoners, and so it helps promote us across the country.

[MolsonExport]

Saint Catherines? Growing??? Can these two even end up in the same sentence without the qualifier "not"?

[Northern Light]

Interesting thread.

As someone from the GTA, I've been out to London the odd time, mostly when i had a GF at UWO.

But otherwise as stopover on my way to the U.S.

I has a favourable impression of UWO, nice campus, and of many of the older homes/parks in the downtown.

Enjoyed a few nice meals at the local restaurants too.

But I suppose, I make the case and point, in that w/o some special reason, I probably would not have made the trip out.

***

Pure 'name recognition' and tourism are not one and the same.

Though clearly the former helps the latter. While good tourism experiences certainly don't hurt the former either.

But I think its important to distinguish.

First, let's talk 'name recognition'

I think a lot of people from Toronto (and further afield) do know London, but probably mostly for UWO.

Most have not visited, and don't see the City's name up in lights on a regular basis.

Cities like Hamilton, Niagara, and K-W and smaller centers like Stratford are better known, thought not necessarily top-of-mind.

The reasons are fairly straight forward, I think.

Hamilton is closer, of course, but also has a CFL team and a TV station seen on Basic Cable in Toronto (CHCH); it also has radio stations available to most car radios here, and does have rush-hour commuter train service, along with all-day rail service close by (Aldershot)

K-W similarly has a TV station (though not available on basic cable in Toronto anymore); 2 Universities, some branding from RIM and some commuter traffic.

Niagara has the falls and is a border area, nothing to compete with there, just advantage by nature.

While Stratford is both a leading tourist destination, but has also had a TV show feature its Chef School, and benefits from its postcard looks.

London, to gain notoriety, needs some of those things. That could be getting its existing TV outlet (CFPL) onto to Toronto cable systems or adding a new station (likely CBC). Maybe a TV show set there would help too!

It could be adding some leading tourist facilities. That could be Live theatre of some description, but it could also be a pro sports franchise such as the CFL.

It also requires more tourism....(the chicken-and-egg thing here)

Which, beyond attractions is about the convenience of getting there.

The problem as I see it, is that London (to me) is 3 hours or so away by car.

Too short to take a plane, but too long for a day trip.

I see higher-speed, more frequent rail as the big answer there.

If the train could cut my travel time to under 2 hours (do-able at existing VIA max. speed of 160km p/h, more or less....if only track/signals were upgraded) then day-trips become much more viable, as might attracting commuter students to UWO, particularly from Hamilton/Brantford and K-W.

More frequent service is also key, hourly would work best (every 2 hours via K-W and every 2 hours via Brantford) so that someone in Toronto could get a train every hour from 7am-9pm daily. (14 trains total, compared to six today, I think)

This is also an issue for people from the Detroit area, where there is no longer international rail service. Restoring that (2 trains per day from Chicago) both of which would go through London, would likely boost recognition as well.

***

Once there, my only unfortunate thoughts about London, were the lack of a nice old cinema (its a sort of culture-symbol), last time I visited the Capitol?? was the last one I think, and it was boarded up.

My other reservation was the lack of ways to get around w/o a car. Obviously i brought mine, but I noted no higher-level transit, and my there doesn't seem to be a car-sharing service either. The former of which is planned for both Hamilton and K-W and the latter of which already exists in both.

Otherwise a lovely little place ya have there! Just got to get the name out more.

[Highinthesky]

I agree with what you're saying about getting the word as your own posts is perfect example of the cities failure on that front. There is live theatre in London as you can buy tickets at the Grand Theatre for tonights showing of Joseph and the amazing technicolour dreamcoat.

[manny_santos]

You're not going to get CFPL ('A' London) on cable in Toronto since they already get the 'A' station from Barrie, although you can get the London station on satellite anywhere across Canada.

A better bet is for London to get a CBC TV station, something I have written to the CBC about previously. Other smaller cities with their own CBC stations like Windsor, Regina, Charlottetown, and Halifax get a lot more national media attention, because stories on local newscasts in those regions end up on The National, CBC News Network programming, and other news and current affairs programming. CBC brass have never responded.

[Northern Light]

Its worth noting that CFPL London ("A" London) was CBC London for its first several decades.

But it was always a privately-owned station, and it disaffiliated from CBC in the 90's as I recall.

First bought by Chum to join the City TV group then later integrated into CTV.

I'm sure CBC would love a London presence, the problem is that the cost of a full-set up and local news division likely would not be profitable.

Certainly not a mega-money maker.

The mostly likely way CBC gets back in London is acquiring CFPL from CTV, probably on the cheap. "A" is far less than a national network, and is largely left-over stations that allow CTV to acquire more U.S. programming and find a place for the less lucrative shows. (put another way it allows CTV to keep Global from getting too many U.S. shows that might do OK in the ratings).

While I think that would be beneficial in a small way, its really up-sizing from 1 station to 2 that would add some additional media play (as well as feeding 2 of the National Networks news shows, instead of 1)

[Simpseatles]

The problem as I see it, is that London (to me) is 3 hours or so away by car.

Too short to take a plane, but too long for a day trip.

I see higher-speed, more frequent rail as the big answer there.

.

3 hours, not day trip worthy! Try telling that to the people like me, who go on day trips to Collingwood for decent skiing in the winter!

Maybe if you live in Oshawa, or Barrie. Day trips from London to Toronto are common, and you can make it downtown in 2 or 2 1/2 hours at the most.

But I can see what your saying, it isn't that convienient and it could be improved with, here we go again, High Speed Rail!:rolleyes:

Also, I don't know what the chances are of Porter ever having flights here, but that could help with the Toronto latte sipping condo crowed, looking for an authentic "small town" experiece!:haha:

Perhaps another problem with getting our image out is that, although we are at the centre of the economic, and agricultural heartland of Ontario, to anyone else this means absolutely nothing. Sarnia and Windsor have the setting on the border, any place within 100 km of Toronto already has a benefit, and Niagara Falls, well it doesn't need much help with it's image!

[Cambridgite]

and Niagara Falls, well it doesn't need much help with it's image!

Obviously you haven't seen anything beyond the falls themselves and the tourist/casino district. ;)

Niagara Falls is a pretty seedy town. Even the locals of Niagara Region see it as such.

[Simpseatles]

Obviously you haven't seen anything beyond the falls themselves and the tourist/casino district. ;)

Niagara Falls is a pretty seedy town. Even the locals of Niagara Region see it as such.

Oh no, I am aware that Niagara Falls itself is pretty seedy, it's just that it's obviously much more well known.

[Blitz]

Interesting thoughts about the CBC. I think they would have a very hard time competing in the local news market though against A-Channel (although CBC holds their own against A-Channel in the Windsor market). The other cities you mentioned (Regina, Charlottetown, Halifax) are all capitals and major regional centres probably explaining why CBC is there. In Windsor, CBC attracts a lot of viewers from Metro Detroit especially during Hockey Night in Canada.

[Kokkei Mizu]

I see higher-speed, more frequent rail as the big answer there.

If the train could cut my travel time to under 2 hours (do-able at existing VIA max. speed of 160km p/h, more or less....if only track/signals were upgraded) then day-trips become much more viable, as might attracting commuter students to UWO, particularly from Hamilton/Brantford and K-W.

More frequent service is also key, hourly would work best (every 2 hours via K-W and every 2 hours via Brantford) so that someone in Toronto could get a train every hour from 7am-9pm daily. (14 trains total, compared to six today, I think)

This is also an issue for people from the Detroit area, where there is no longer international rail service. Restoring that (2 trains per day from Chicago) both of which would go through London, would likely boost recognition as well

VIA isn't doing too badly with service from Toronto - London. The advantage London has is that it has two services both passing through (Toronto - Windsor, Toronto - Sarnia).

In total, 16 VIAs pass through London daily. 3 each direction on the Toronto - Sarnia line and 5 in each direction on the Toronto - Windsor line. Much more than your estimated six.

And the times VIAs pass through London are pretty convenient...

Eastbounds to Toronto:
0500, 0620, 0751, 0800, 1128, 1533, 1931, 2012

Westbounds to Windsor or Sarnia:
0942, 1405, 1410, 1858, 1919, 2045, 2119, 0058

As for travel times, VIA isn't doing too badly here either. On VIA's website, a quick search for one-way from Toronto to London brought up the shortest time of 2 hours and 4 minutes. Sure, high-speed rail would definitely help here, but only by half an hour maybe.

[MolsonExport]

Interesting thread.

As someone from the GTA, I've been out to London the odd time, mostly when i had a GF at UWO.

But otherwise as stopover on my way to the U.S.

I has a favourable impression of UWO, nice campus, and of many of the older homes/parks in the downtown.

Enjoyed a few nice meals at the local restaurants too.

But I suppose, I make the case and point, in that w/o some special reason, I probably would not have made the trip out.

***

Pure 'name recognition' and tourism are not one and the same.

Though clearly the former helps the latter. While good tourism experiences certainly don't hurt the former either.

But I think its important to distinguish.

First, let's talk 'name recognition'

I think a lot of people from Toronto (and further afield) do know London, but probably mostly for UWO.

Most have not visited, and don't see the City's name up in lights on a regular basis.

Cities like Hamilton, Niagara, and K-W and smaller centers like Stratford are better known, thought not necessarily top-of-mind.

The reasons are fairly straight forward, I think.

Hamilton is closer, of course, but also has a CFL team and a TV station seen on Basic Cable in Toronto (CHCH); it also has radio stations available to most car radios here, and does have rush-hour commuter train service, along with all-day rail service close by (Aldershot)

K-W similarly has a TV station (though not available on basic cable in Toronto anymore); 2 Universities, some branding from RIM and some commuter traffic.

Niagara has the falls and is a border area, nothing to compete with there, just advantage by nature.

While Stratford is both a leading tourist destination, but has also had a TV show feature its Chef School, and benefits from its postcard looks.

London, to gain notoriety, needs some of those things. That could be getting its existing TV outlet (CFPL) onto to Toronto cable systems or adding a new station (likely CBC). Maybe a TV show set there would help too!

It could be adding some leading tourist facilities. That could be Live theatre of some description, but it could also be a pro sports franchise such as the CFL.

It also requires more tourism....(the chicken-and-egg thing here)

Which, beyond attractions is about the convenience of getting there.

The problem as I see it, is that London (to me) is 3 hours or so away by car.

Too short to take a plane, but too long for a day trip.

I see higher-speed, more frequent rail as the big answer there.

If the train could cut my travel time to under 2 hours (do-able at existing VIA max. speed of 160km p/h, more or less....if only track/signals were upgraded) then day-trips become much more viable, as might attracting commuter students to UWO, particularly from Hamilton/Brantford and K-W.

More frequent service is also key, hourly would work best (every 2 hours via K-W and every 2 hours via Brantford) so that someone in Toronto could get a train every hour from 7am-9pm daily. (14 trains total, compared to six today, I think)

This is also an issue for people from the Detroit area, where there is no longer international rail service. Restoring that (2 trains per day from Chicago) both of which would go through London, would likely boost recognition as well.

***

Once there, my only unfortunate thoughts about London, were the lack of a nice old cinema (its a sort of culture-symbol), last time I visited the Capitol?? was the last one I think, and it was boarded up.

My other reservation was the lack of ways to get around w/o a car. Obviously i brought mine, but I noted no higher-level transit, and my there doesn't seem to be a car-sharing service either. The former of which is planned for both Hamilton and K-W and the latter of which already exists in both.

Otherwise a lovely little place ya have there! Just got to get the name out more.

Good points, all of them, except to say that Toronto-London is about 2 hours by car, unless you are at the height of rush hour, or if you are travelling from the eastern part of Toronto (e.g., Scarberia) to the northwestern part of London (e.g., Hyde Park and the Dumbcentre).