[Cambridgite]

By Luisa D’Amato, Record staff Fri Dec 31 2010

Group requests permission to distribute Qur’an in public schools

WATERLOO REGION — A Muslim organization has applied to the Waterloo Region District School Board to send a copy of the Qur’an home with any Grade 5 student whose parents indicate they would like one.

A representative of the Islamic Information Center at the University of Waterloo approached the former chair of the board, Kitchener trustee Mike Ramsay, with the request about a month ago.

Ramsay said he made sure that the group got all the information it required to make the written application.

. . .

Source: http://www.therecord.com/news/local/article/308053--group-requests-permission-to-distribute-qur-an-in-public-schools

[vid]

Understanding religion is the best way to debunk it, but schools shouldn't be used as a channel to distribute religious text.

[Xelebes]

Remember to only post an excerpt of the article, not the entire article.

[Boris2k7]

If other groups are allowed to distribute their religious tripe, then there's no reason the Qur'an shouldn't be allowed as well. Otherwise, just ban them all.

[Cambridgite]

Remember to only post an excerpt of the article, not the entire article.

Thanks for taking the liberty to do so, Xelebes.

[freeweed]

If other groups are allowed to distribute their religious tripe, then there's no reason the Qur'an shouldn't be allowed as well. Otherwise, just ban them all.

Bingo. Are kids sent home with bibles at some schools? If so, big whoop. If not, why is his even being considered?

[MonkeyRonin]

"Every year, the Gideons have sent a copy of the Christian New Testament, plus the Hebrew Bible books of Psalms and Proverbs, home to families of Grade 5 students who sign a permission form for the household to receive one."

If thats the case, then there is nothing unreasonable about this request.

However, the fact that kids are getting religious texts from public schools in the first place is also unreasonable. Still, it'd be even more unreasonable to allow one but not others.

[MolsonExport]

I recall getting Gideons' little red book of New Testicle and Psalm-pilots and Proverbs every year. If this is permitted, then why not the Qur'an? Like others have said, schools are not the place for proselytising, but if the Jesus pushers can do it, then why not the Muslims?

[niwell]

^Yep. I remember getting a mini version of the new testament in grade 4 or 5 (which I never looked at). If they can do that then why not a Qur'an?

Personally though I'd prefer nothing religious given out.

[Cambridgite]

Personally though I'd prefer nothing religious given out.

Just to clarify, they are not allowed to distribute bibles during school hours and students must have their parents sign a permission form if they want to take one home. The same arrangement is being proposed with the Qur'an. So nothing is being pushed onto the students in either case. At least no moreso than a company that advertises on the internet.

I can't make this claim with certainty, but I think the request to distribute the Qur'an has less to do with wanting to indoctrinate/convert students and has more to do with making a bold political statement. The issue of Gideon's bible distribution at local schools has prompted some angry letters to the editor as of late, as well as some equally flavourful letters from Christians who don't believe in the separation of church and state. I think this was more of an attempt to see if some members of the latter group change their tune when it is no longer a bible being pushed onto local students.

[Aylmer]

So... they're only giving it to people who want it?

Wait, What's the issue again?

[freeweed]

I'll remove this out of respect for the mods and others. No sense in inciting more flames. Good $20 word too, used appropriately. Props to proper vocabulary.

[Xelebes]

Gordbo, I am going to warn you to stop redirecting the thread into territories best not travelled. Please respect the fact that there are Muslim participants on this board and posting demagoguery like you have is by design to create a war here. So, please stop while you are ahead.

[Yume-sama]

I've never heard of this happening here in Calgary.

The East must be full of redneck religious fanatics or something ;) *ahem*

No religious texts should be allowed in public schools, ideally. I don't care if it's Christianity or Islam. But, if for some reason they have wrongly allowed one... I've got to think there's no better way to make the average Christian stop spreading their materials in public school than by allowing Muslims to do exactly the same thing, under equal protection :P

[GORDBO]

Gordbo, I am going to warn you to stop redirecting the thread into territories best not travelled. Please respect the fact that there are Muslim participants on this board and posting demagoguery like you have is by design to create a war here. So, please stop while you are ahead.

I'll heed your warning, I'd like to mention that I am not a racist. This thread should have been expected to be controversial from the beginning. I assume post #14 will also be removed!

[isaidso]

Otherwise, just ban them all. That's how I see it too. Children are vulnerable and easily manipulated so schools should be doctrine free. I'm not in favour of children being exposed to any form of religion at all.

[Metro-One]

I've never heard of this happening here in Calgary.

The East must be full of redneck religious fanatics or something ;) *ahem*

No religious texts should be allowed in public schools, ideally. I don't care if it's Christianity or Islam. But, if for some reason they have wrongly allowed one... I've got to think there's no better way to make the average Christian stop spreading their materials in public school than by allowing Muslims to do exactly the same thing, under equal protection :P

Same thing growing up on the BC coast, I never remember there being any religious infiltration into our studies (besides viewing them in a cultural aspect in such courses as "Cultural Studies," which discussed all major religions in a forensic fashion), or being approached by religious groups through the school system in any form.

I also agree with isaidso, schools should be doctrine free.

I personally have never been comfortable with having Christian, Muslim & other religious based private schools in our school system in BC, especially when they receive public money. I always feel sorry for those kids, being brainwashed and sheltered from the BC public at large. The best thing for kids is to be exposed to BC's multiculturalism in a doctrine free school setting, not being segregated through their own special schools, especially at young ages.

[BretttheRiderFan]

At my school we have a religion section in our library, has Bibles, Qurans and all the other ones

And why should they even need parents permission? They don't if they want to take out any other book in the library so why is religion so sensitive?

I guess its a more liberal society here in Alberta

[BretttheRiderFan]

Same thing growing up on the BC coast, I never remember there being any religious infiltration into our studies (besides viewing them in a cultural aspect in such courses as "Cultural Studies," which discussed all major religions in a forensic fashion), or being approached by religious groups through the school system in any form.

I also agree with isaidso, schools should be doctrine free.

I personally have never been comfortable with having Christian, Muslim & other religious based private schools in our school system in BC, especially when they receive public money. I always feel sorry for those kids, being brainwashed and sheltered from the BC public at large. The best thing for kids is to be exposed to BC's multiculturalism in a doctrine free school setting, not being segregated through their own special schools, especially at young ages.

I don't know about BC but here in Alberta Catholic schools are publicly funded

Kids of any religion or no religion at all are all allowed to attend and I have plenty of friends that go to Catholic schools

It's basically no different from my school, the teachers aren't religious freaks (they don't have to be Catholic either) and they have to follow the provincial curricullum

It's a bit out of line to say they are being brainwashed, I looked through a friends religion textbook and it basically teaches the ideas of all the major religions

They teach evolution too :haha:

[manny_santos]

So... they're only giving it to people who want it?

Wait, What's the issue again?

Yeah, I don't get what the issue is either. It seems entirely reasonable to me. And I'm not a Muslim.

[Cambridgite]

At my school we have a religion section in our library, has Bibles, Qurans and all the other ones

And why should they even need parents permission? They don't if they want to take out any other book in the library so why is religion so sensitive?

I agree. As long as it's not mandatory reading or covered in the curriculum, I don't understand how some people can view this as "forcing" religion on anyone. If you don't want to read it, don't pick it up. Besides, I'm sure it's no less appropriate than some other books you can find in your average library. I would think, for most kids, it would be on the level of junk mail.

I suspect that the people who take issue with the current arrangement (being able to pick up bibles with a signed permission form) are the same outspoken people who get indignant about nativity scenes or people saying Merry Christmas.

I don't know about BC but here in Alberta Catholic schools are publicly funded

Kids of any religion or no religion at all are all allowed to attend and I have plenty of friends that go to Catholic schools

It's basically no different from my school, the teachers aren't religious freaks (they don't have to be Catholic either) and they have to follow the provincial curricullum

It's a bit out of line to say they are being brainwashed, I looked through a friends religion textbook and it basically teaches the ideas of all the major religions

They teach evolution too :haha:

Same applies to Ontario Catholic Schools as well.

[freeweed]

Same applies to Ontario Catholic Schools as well.

Then they sure have changed since my day. I went to a Catholic school in Ontario, and believe me, it was ALL about brainwashing. We even had the local priest in every week so that a bunch of innocent 8 year olds could try to figure out just how much they'd offended God.

I actually found my old notes from "Christian Living" classes earlier this year. It was frightening to read through. I've read cultist materials that are less about indoctrination and intolerance towards outsiders.

[alps]

I recall getting a bible from the Gideons in grade 5. It IS forcing religion on children because children of that age aren't aren't informed enough to make those sorts of decisions. All these religious groups should be kept out until high school, at the very least.

[vid]

Same applies to Ontario Catholic Schools as well.

Which makes one wonder: If there is no real difference between the Catholic and Public schools, why go through the expense of administering two boards? We could save millions of dollars every year by folding both of each region's school boards into each other. (In places like Thunder Bay, we could also fold the French schools into the public ones; no point having an entire administrative board for a single school!) The duplication of administrative staff is taking funds away from students. We have 19 school board trustees here, for maybe 20,000 students in all four of them. (One board doesn't actually have any schools here, because we don't have enough French Language rights people to attend it; it simply exists.) In many cases we have two schools beside each other, one for each system. Why? How is this better than a single school? Both boards keep folding schools into each other to "save money" and "provide better opportunities"; why not fold the boards together? Wouldn't that be even more beneficial?

I think all schools should carry copies of religious texts (at least the ones that don't end with artificial fruit drinks) as a resource for students, and that the basics of all religions should be taught in a neutral fashion so that students can understand what they're about without being indoctrinated into them, if only so that people like Gordbo can prevent themselves from appearing as ignorant asses in wider society. Religion and spirituality could be folded into a single course, likely designed for older grades. You can't deny it exists, however. It is an influential force in society and people have to know about it to know what to do with/about it.

As I said in the first post, the best way to get people to abandon their religion is to actually teach them about it.

Then they sure have changed since my day. I went to a Catholic school in Ontario, and believe me, it was ALL about brainwashing. We even had the local priest in every week so that a bunch of innocent 8 year olds could try to figure out just how much they'd offended God.

I actually found my old notes from "Christian Living" classes earlier this year. It was frightening to read through. I've read cultist materials that are less about indoctrination and intolerance towards outsiders.

God stuff still plays a pretty big role but they do teach and generally seem to accept things like evolution and sex ed and other things. (They're less explicit about sex ed, obviously; but that just makes their girls more fun! It's easy to fuck up when all you have to do to get out of it is apologize to ghosts.) Their students do marginally better, but I think that is just because they put more emphasis on including parents in the curriculum than the public system, and that, too, is primarily about getting them to go to church more. They also have school wards designed in a way that chops low income areas among many schools, while the public system is stuck in a situation where a single school serves a huge low income area so every single student is coming from an abuse home, and it's hard to teach in an environment like that. At the other end of the scale, they have a school where the average family is earning over $100,000/year and for some reason, that schools seems to get all the cool stuff. The income equalizing of school ward boundaries is probably the only good thing about the Catholic board; that, and they seem better at actually placing schools in neighbourhoods. The public board is always sticking them at the edge of the neighbourhood, the Catholic schools are usually more embedded in the area they serve.

You need to have Catholic education rights for your kids to go there in Ontario but considering my cousin (who would have had many more kids if she hadn't aborted them) was able to send her's to a Catholic school I imagine they're much easier to obtain than French education rights. (It's virtually impossible for an Anglophone to send their kids to a French school here, probably why they're so small and French Immersion is so popular.) It's been a while since I saw their homework but it was basically the same thing I was learning in public school when I was their age, but with some religious crap thrown in. (And don't worry, they were concerned about how poorly she was doing in that class so she is fine. ;))


And on the greater topic I agree with the Green Party and John Tory: If you're going to fund one religious school system, fund them all. Or, ideally, don't fund any of them. If Catholic people want a Catholic school for their kids, they can get the church to run it. Not like the Vatican is poor or anything. Honestly, if only one religion can support its own school board without taxpayer help, it's the Catholic one.

[Cambridgite]

Which makes one wonder: If there is no real difference between the Catholic and Public schools, why go through the expense of administering two boards? We could save millions of dollars every year by folding both of each region's school boards into each other. (In places like Thunder Bay, we could also fold the French schools into the public ones; no point having an entire administrative board for a single school!) The duplication of administrative staff is taking funds away from students. We have 19 school board trustees here, for maybe 20,000 students in all four of them. (One board doesn't actually have any schools here, because we don't have enough French Language rights people to attend it; it simply exists.) In many cases we have two schools beside each other, one for each system. Why? How is this better than a single school? Both boards keep folding schools into each other to "save money" and "provide better opportunities"; why not fold the boards together? Wouldn't that be even more beneficial?

I think all schools should carry copies of religious texts (at least the ones that don't end with artificial fruit drinks) as a resource for students, and that the basics of all religions should be taught in a neutral fashion so that students can understand what they're about without being indoctrinated into them, if only so that people like Gordbo can prevent themselves from appearing as ignorant asses in wider society. Religion and spirituality could be folded into a single course, likely designed for older grades. You can't deny it exists, however. It is an influential force in society and people have to know about it to know what to do with/about it.

As I said in the first post, the best way to get people to abandon their religion is to actually teach them about it.

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you just said.

While children learning about religion may not be evil, it has nothing to do with employability and functioning in the real world later in life. If they want to learn about it, they can ask their parents or read about it on their own time. Providing the texts in a school library would allow them to learn what was said directly and draw their own conclusions, not what has already been interpreted for them by someone else.

RE: "Religious brainwashing in Ontario Catholic Schools":

At my school, we did have a woman come in our religion class to make a brief anti-abortion pitch. Although it involved more science than just taking some quotes from the bible.

I can only assume freeweed is from a different generation than I.

[freeweed]

I can only assume freeweed is from a different generation than I.

Probably (this was the 1980s), and it may also be the particular school I went to. It was heavily integrated into the Catholic tradition. We had a nun for a principal at one point. The school planned all sorts of church-related activities (first communion, etc). We had a priest in weekly for confession, and classes specifically to learn about Catholicism (NOT a "religion" class by any stretch). Sure we took everything else (science, history, etc) but this was most definitely not just a Catholic school in name only. Our graduation ceremonies took place in church and were actual church masses. The 2 or 3 non-Catholic kids in the entire school - not sure how or why they got in - always had to sit on the wayside for so much stuff.

What I hear you guys talking about is not what I went through. While we didn't wear uniforms it was pretty close to that level of Catholic school.

[MonkeyRonin]

I agree. As long as it's not mandatory reading or covered in the curriculum, I don't understand how some people can view this as "forcing" religion on anyone. If you don't want to read it, don't pick it up. Besides, I'm sure it's no less appropriate than some other books you can find in your average library. I would think, for most kids, it would be on the level of junk mail.

Having them in a library is fine, but I don't like the idea of religious organizations using schools as a vehicle to give students their books - save that for their own churches/mosques/temples/whatever. I see it as sort of being on the same level as say, Coca Cola distributing free samples of their drinks at schools - not an appropriate place to do so.


Then they sure have changed since my day. I went to a Catholic school in Ontario, and believe me, it was ALL about brainwashing. We even had the local priest in every week so that a bunch of innocent 8 year olds could try to figure out just how much they'd offended God.


Evidently so. I went to a Catholic school too in the 90s-mid 2000s (because my parents are vaguely Catholic and the closest school to us was a Catholic one), and the "Catholicness" of it extended about as far as a joke of a religion class you had to take for a few years - most of the material basically being about the importance of doing good things for people and learning about other religions. All the other classes were identical to those in public schools, and likewise, the vast majority of students being at most, apathetic towards religion (plus some people of other religions, and no shortage of athiests and the like).

[Acajack]

Having them in a library is fine, but I don't like the idea of religious organizations using schools as a vehicle to give students their books - save that for their own churches/mosques/temples/whatever. I see it as sort of being on the same level as say, Coca Cola distributing free samples of their drinks at schools - not an appropriate place to do so.



Not strongly opposed I guess but I find it a bit odd I must say. I mean, if I were interested in finding out about what the Coran has to say, I wouldn't think to call up my local public school to get a copy. No more than I would for the Bible or the Talmud.

[Acajack]

Having them in a library is fine, but I don't like the idea of religious organizations using schools as a vehicle to give students their books - save that for their own churches/mosques/temples/whatever. I see it as sort of being on the same level as say, Coca Cola distributing free samples of their drinks at schools - not an appropriate place to do so.




Evidently so. I went to a Catholic school too in the 90s-mid 2000s (because my parents are vaguely Catholic and the closest school to us was a Catholic one), and the "Catholicness" of it extended about as far as a joke of a religion class you had to take for a few years - most of the material basically being about the importance of doing good things for people and learning about other religions. All the other classes were identical to those in public schools, and likewise, the vast majority of students being at most, apathetic towards religion (plus some people of other religions, and no shortage of athiests and the like).


I also went Ontario Catholic schools for part of my education. My experience (70s and 80s) is somewhere in between that of freeweed and MonkeyRonin. It wasn't like fire and brimstone but religion wasn't a joke either.

Now, if you give a religious group its own publicly funded schools, one should not be surprised after that that the religious group in question uses the schools in order to produce a new generation of believers. Every religion (pretty much) wants to convert the entire world. That is a main objective. This is certainly true of the Roman Catholic Church. Look up what the world catholic means: it means universal or all over the world or something like that.

Also, regarding Ontario Catholic schools, I know it can vary from board to board or school to school, but I do know from friends and extended family who teach that some Catholic school board teachers in Ontario get the evil eye for not going to their local church on Sunday, and that living in a common law relationship (with kids born out of wedlock is even worse) is severely frowned upon and can cost you promotions and advancement. Some even fear for their jobs though I am not sure that they should really be afraid.

[Acajack]

Then they sure have changed since my day. I went to a Catholic school in Ontario, and believe me, it was ALL about brainwashing. We even had the local priest in every week so that a bunch of innocent 8 year olds could try to figure out just how much they'd offended God.

I actually found my old notes from "Christian Living" classes earlier this year. It was frightening to read through. I've read cultist materials that are less about indoctrination and intolerance towards outsiders.


This forum just has the best timing sometimes...

Just a few days ago, I overheard the following conversation in the back seat of my car between one of my kids and a little cousin. My kid goes to Quebec public school, where they don’t teach religion but they teach Ethics (which includes factual information about the world’s major religions and their traditions and beliefs). Little cousin to Ontario Catholic school and was visiting us for the holidays.

So just for fun, straight out of the mouths of babes:

Little cousin: You know, Christmas isn’t just about Santa and presents. It’s mostly about Jesus. Jesus created the world and life, and it’s really important to celebrate his birth.

My kid: Yes, it is true that Christians believe that. But just because we believe that, doesn’t mean that everybody does. For Jews, their god is Yahvé, for Muslims it is Allah. And for the Iroquians, it was the Great Hare that created the world!

Little cousin: Sure, but that’s all make-believe. That’s not the truth. The truth is the story about Jesus.

My kid: No, you can’t say that. You can’t tell others what to believe. It's not fair.

Little cousin: But I tell you, I learned it in school. Jesus is the true story. The other stuff is just made up.

My kid: Just because you and I believe it doesn’t mean it is it is going to be everybody else’s truth. It’s like the Hindus’ Diwali celebration of light, when Rama and Sita came back to their kingdom...

[Acajack]

And on the greater topic I agree with the Green Party and John Tory: If you're going to fund one religious school system, fund them all. Or, ideally, don't fund any of them. If Catholic people want a Catholic school for their kids, they can get the church to run it. Not like the Vatican is poor or anything. Honestly, if only one religion can support its own school board without taxpayer help, it's the Catholic one.

I have to agree. It is very hard to justify taxpayer-supported Catholic schools and not have similar schools for other religions.

And yes, I do know that the Catholic schools are effectively guaranteed by the Constitution (BNA Act).

[MolsonExport]

This forum just has the best timing sometimes...

Just a few days ago, I overheard the following conversation in the back seat of my car between one of my kids and a little cousin. My kid goes to Quebec public school, where they don’t teach religion but they teach Ethics (which includes factual information about the world’s major religions and their traditions and beliefs). Little cousin to Ontario Catholic school and was visiting us for the holidays.

So just for fun, straight out of the mouths of babes:

Little cousin: You know, Christmas isn’t just about Santa and presents. It’s mostly about Jesus. Jesus created the world and life, and it’s really important to celebrate his birth.

My kid: Yes, it is true that Christians believe that. But just because we believe that, doesn’t mean that everybody does. For Jews, their god is Yahvé, for Muslims it is Allah. And for the Iroquians, it was the Great Hare that created the world!

Little cousin: Sure, but that’s all make-believe. That’s not the truth. The truth is the story about Jesus.

My kid: No, you can’t say that. You can’t tell others what to believe. It's not fair.

Little cousin: But I tell you, I learned it in school. Jesus is the true story. The other stuff is just made up.

My kid: Just because you and I believe it doesn’t mean it is it is going to be everybody else’s truth. It’s like the Hindus’ Diwali celebration of light, when Rama and Sita came back to their kingdom...

You've got a real smart kid there, Acajack! :tup:

[Acajack]

You've got a real smart kid there, Acajack! :tup:


Yeah... I knew quite a bit about Christianity, Judaism, Islam, but most all I know about Hinduism or aboriginal beliefs I got from an elementary school child!

[Cambridgite]

This forum just has the best timing sometimes...

Just a few days ago, I overheard the following conversation in the back seat of my car between one of my kids and a little cousin. My kid goes to Quebec public school, where they don’t teach religion but they teach Ethics (which includes factual information about the world’s major religions and their traditions and beliefs). Little cousin to Ontario Catholic school and was visiting us for the holidays.

So just for fun, straight out of the mouths of babes:

Little cousin: You know, Christmas isn’t just about Santa and presents. It’s mostly about Jesus. Jesus created the world and life, and it’s really important to celebrate his birth.

My kid: Yes, it is true that Christians believe that. But just because we believe that, doesn’t mean that everybody does. For Jews, their god is Yahvé, for Muslims it is Allah. And for the Iroquians, it was the Great Hare that created the world!

Little cousin: Sure, but that’s all make-believe. That’s not the truth. The truth is the story about Jesus.

My kid: No, you can’t say that. You can’t tell others what to believe. It's not fair.

Little cousin: But I tell you, I learned it in school. Jesus is the true story. The other stuff is just made up.

My kid: Just because you and I believe it doesn’t mean it is it is going to be everybody else’s truth. It’s like the Hindus’ Diwali celebration of light, when Rama and Sita came back to their kingdom...

lol...he already has better conversational skills than many adults!!

[Acajack]

lol...he already has better conversational skills than many adults!!

Thanks for the compliment but this was actually an off-the-cuff translation from French by Daddy Acajack! ;)

[vid]

Also, regarding Ontario Catholic schools, I know it can vary from board to board or school to school, but I do know from friends and extended family who teach that some Catholic school board teachers in Ontario get the evil eye for not going to their local church on Sunday, and that living in a common law relationship (with kids born out of wedlock is even worse) is severely frowned upon and can cost you promotions and advancement. Some even fear for their jobs though I am not sure that they should really be afraid.

There was a controversy in our letters to the editors page recently of teaching students complaining that the relatives of teachers in the Catholic system regularly get jobs ahead of them, and that retired Catholic teachers are brought in as substitutes far more often than new teachers, making it very difficult for them to build a career. Many have gotten so fed up with the situation that they've moved to other provinces to teach.

And yes, I do know that the Catholic schools are effectively guaranteed by the Constitution (BNA Act).

The constitution should be changed. It isn't 1867 anymore.

When I was in school we didn't really learn anything about other religions. It would come up in other subjects but was never discussed. Pretty much everything I know about other religions is the result of taking the initiative to look them up myself.

[Acajack]

When I was in school we didn't really learn anything about other religions. It would come up in other subjects but was never discussed. Pretty much everything I know about other religions is the result of taking the initiative to look them up myself.

Did you go to Catholic school?

When I went to Ontario Catholic school, there was nothing about other religions in elementary school, but there was one course I had in high school (with a really good teacher actually) where we learned about the other religions of the world. But aside from that even in high school it was all Catholicism.

And based on what I hear from people I know who have kids currently in Ontario Catholic schools, things haven't changed. It's still 100% Catholic from what I hear from everyone.

[someone123]

And yes, I do know that the Catholic schools are effectively guaranteed by the Constitution (BNA Act).

I know relatively little about this but denominational public schools no longer exist in Halifax (up until recently there were some relics of the system, like two high schools operating within a few blocks of each other) and probably aren't found in the Maritimes.

It seems crazy that they've survived in Ontario or even in Alberta. There should be no religious instruction in public school.

[mersar]

There was a recent editorial in one of the Calgary papers proposing the abolishment of the two systems here and instead just having a single one, as others proposed above. It pointed out that most provinces have already gone that route.


As for the original topic of the thread, I too have to wonder exactly why this is news, aside from the obvious attempt by the media to make it look like the muslim community is trying to force themselves on our children despite that being so far from whats actually happening here. So long as its a by permission of the parents type of thing I have no problem if they wanted to hand out the Qur'an, Tanakh, Talmud, or the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster if the parents said its ok.

[freeweed]

The constitution should be changed. It isn't 1867 anymore.

*Puts on asbestos suit*

To some people (not me), "founding" religions as described in our constitution are every bit as valid and deserving of protection as founding languages. To hardcore Catholics what you're suggesting is tantamount to removing our French language roots.

[freeweed]

As for the original topic of the thread, I too have to wonder exactly why this is news, aside from the obvious attempt by the media to make it look like the muslim community is trying to force themselves on our children despite that being so far from whats actually happening here.

Likely this. I've noticed lately countless examples of things that Christians, Jews, you name it have done for decades and centuries - when Muslims do the same, it's suddenly news.

When I point this out to people, I often get this back in response: "yeah, but Christianity was a founding religion in this country". See my previous post.

[Metro-One]

:previous: Actually it is everal reasons I find.

1 - The extreme right wing likes to overly criticize everything muslims do.

2 - This causes the PC (extreme left wing) group to overly protect / defend everything muslims do

These two poler sides have therefore been counter acting each other with their muslim campaigns ( the new found flavour of the month.)

While that is the lions share of this noted publicized increase, they are not the only reasons. The muslim community has been growing in power (especially internationally) over the last few decades and this does create a new geo political society that does need to be discussed. Also, the muslim community in Canada is now larger than it has ever been before, so it will be discussed more often, etc...

[vid]

*Puts on asbestos suit*

To some people (not me), "founding" religions as described in our constitution are every bit as valid and deserving of protection as founding languages. To hardcore Catholics what you're suggesting is tantamount to removing our French language roots.

I don't consider religion to be as important as language. Beating women was part of our culture too but we got rid of that. We can get rid of Catholicism. An organization that regularly insults millions of Canadians does not deserve constitutional protection.

[BretttheRiderFan]

There was a recent editorial in one of the Calgary papers proposing the abolishment of the two systems here and instead just having a single one, as others proposed above. It pointed out that most provinces have already gone that route.


As for the original topic of the thread, I too have to wonder exactly why this is news, aside from the obvious attempt by the media to make it look like the muslim community is trying to force themselves on our children despite that being so far from whats actually happening here. So long as its a by permission of the parents type of thing I have no problem if they wanted to hand out the Qur'an, Tanakh, Talmud, or the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster if the parents said its ok.

Muslims are the Rider fans of the religious world

One Muslim dumps booze on a Christian in the crowd and everyone knows about it!

The Christian does the same to the Muslim and people don't think twice! :D

[freeweed]

:previous: Actually it is everal reasons I find.

1 - The extreme right wing likes to overly criticize everything muslims do.

2 - This causes the PC (extreme left wing) group to overly protect / defend everything muslims do

These two poler sides have therefore been counter acting each other with their muslim campaigns ( the new found flavour of the month.)


This is a pretty good summary of things. It doesn't help that Islam is regaining attention that it hasn't had in centuries (for all sorts of reasons, mostly bad unfortunately).

[someone123]

I don't consider religion to be as important as language. Beating women was part of our culture too but we got rid of that. We can get rid of Catholicism. An organization that regularly insults millions of Canadians does not deserve constitutional protection.

Regardless of what people think of Catholicism (I don't think much of it), parents can send their kids to church and Sunday school if they want. Nobody is saying they can't practice their religion.

[Cambridgite]

Muslims won’t pursue request to distribute Qur’an

WATERLOO REGION — Local Muslims say they won’t be pursuing a request to have free copies of the Qur’an sent home with Grade 5 students.

The announcement was made in a news release issued Tuesday by the Kitchener masjid — the place of Muslim worship.

Members of the local Muslim community had applied to the Waterloo Region District School Board to send an English translation of the Muslim holy book home with any Grade 5 student whose parents indicate they wanted one. The request was to have been considered by the board in the fall.

“Our motivation for the request was based on Islam’s strong encouragement of the exchange of knowledge and viewpoints, to bring people closer to each other and their Creator,” the news release stated.

“However, Islam also teaches the importance of harmonious relations and avoiding unnecessary conflict and dissension within society.”

....

Source: http://www.therecord.com/news/local/article/309090--muslims-won-t-pursue-request-to-distribute-qur-an

[freeweed]

Well that was a boring conclusion.

I've always wanted to read a translation of the Koran, but I've been told in the past that it's one of the religious texts that can only truly be understood in the original Arabic. That's always seemed like a cop-out excuse to me, a way to just keep knowledge insular and the realm of the elite - but I honestly have no idea. Is that just something that fundamentalists say, or is it a widely held belief in Islam in general?

It's too bad. The bits and pieces I see tend to be the most extreme, violent passages - but the Xian bible has plenty of that too (plus deity-condoned incest, rape, and all sorts of nasty things!). If I had only been exposed to an "Internet" view of the bible, I'd probably think some pretty bad thoughts about it. I mean, even more than I do having read it cover to cover. At least having read it, I can see it for the mythological allegory that it is. With the Koran, my impression at times has been that it's an instruction manual for war, which can't possibly be true.

[Cambridgite]

Well that was a boring conclusion.

Indeed. I believe what happened at first was that the individuals who brought this issue before the board were trying to make a political statement. But knowing how much opposition there already is towards the Gideon's bible distribution in the community, I don't think the leaders of the local Muslim community wanted the bad publicity (let's face it, if the distribution of Christian literature is contraversial, just imagine what the reaction will be to the Islamic equivalent).

It's too bad. The bits and pieces I see tend to be the most extreme, violent passages - but the Xian bible has plenty of that too (plus deity-condoned incest, rape, and all sorts of nasty things!). If I had only been exposed to an "Internet" view of the bible, I'd probably think some pretty bad thoughts about it. I mean, even more than I do having read it cover to cover. At least having read it, I can see it for the mythological allegory that it is. With the Koran, my impression at times has been that it's an instruction manual for war, which can't possibly be true.

It's hard to know for sure, unless you fully read them both. But looking at the formerly Christian countries and looking at the predominantly Muslim countries, I find it hard to believe that the Islamic states are any more progressive than we are, let's face it. Then again, those formerly Christian states have become very secularized, so that may cloud the comparison.

[vid]

I've always wanted to read a translation of the Koran, but I've been told in the past that it's one of the religious texts that can only truly be understood in the original Arabic. That's always seemed like a cop-out excuse to me, a way to just keep knowledge insular and the realm of the elite - but I honestly have no idea. Is that just something that fundamentalists say, or is it a widely held belief in Islam in general?

The bible probably makes more sense in its original languages than it does in 17th century British English. Everything makes the most sense in the language it was originally written in, don't let that stop you.

It's hard to know for sure, unless you fully read them both. But looking at the formerly Christian countries and looking at the predominantly Muslim countries, I find it hard to believe that the Islamic states are any more progressive than we are, let's face it. Then again, those formerly Christian states have become very secularized, so that may cloud the comparison.

Go back to the middle ages and the Muslim countries were more progressive than the Christian ones. States where Christianity still plays a large influence, like those in Africa, or some places in Europe, are pretty regressive, in some cases just as much as the Islamic states nearby. (And when compared to relatively progressive Islamic countries like Jordan or Kuwait, some Christian nations do appear very regressive.)

It isn't necessarily the religion that creates the regression. There are many progressive Christians (the United Church is quite progressive) and progressive Muslims as well.

[Acajack]

:previous: Actually it is everal reasons I find.

1 - The extreme right wing likes to overly criticize everything muslims do.

2 - This causes the PC (extreme left wing) group to overly protect / defend everything muslims do

These two poler sides have therefore been counter acting each other with their muslim campaigns ( the new found flavour of the month.)

While that is the lions share of this noted publicized increase, they are not the only reasons. The muslim community has been growing in power (especially internationally) over the last few decades and this does create a new geo political society that does need to be discussed. Also, the muslim community in Canada is now larger than it has ever been before, so it will be discussed more often, etc...

There is also another important factor. The white liberal guilt set (them again) tend to be xenophilic:

What I was raised in: BAD

What is different from what I was raised in (especially from another country): GOOD

Which means they often pooh-pooh the not-so-nice aspects of some religions that are fairly recent implantations in Canada, and play up the faults of the more traditional Canadian religions.

For example, it is interesting to note the relative gravity in their voices when one talks about the burqa/niqab (which some defend as a "freedom" issue), versus the fact that women cannot become priests in the Catholic church.

Homesexuality is another good one.

[someone123]

As far as issues that merit "white guilt", I think the treatment of gay people right here in Canada (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2010/12/22/edmonton-homosexuality-mental-disorder.html) is a pretty good one. Same thing goes for the treatment of natives and a number of other groups.

P.S. - I am getting "muslim singles" ads on this page now.

[BretttheRiderFan]

As far as issues that merit "white guilt", I think the treatment of gay people right here in Canada (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2010/12/22/edmonton-homosexuality-mental-disorder.html) is a pretty good one. Same thing goes for the treatment of natives and a number of other groups.

P.S. - I am getting "muslim singles" ads on this page now.

I think our treatment of gays is pretty good when comparing to the rest of the world

[someone123]

I think our treatment of gays is pretty good when comparing to the rest of the world

It's been pretty good for the past few years, but Canada doesn't have a good track record. The rest of the world with a few small exceptions is particularly terrible when it comes to the treatment of gay people.

[Metro-One]

:previous: When I was travelling through Senegal upon arrival I had to sign a form saying I would not partake in homosexual sex, for such an activity is a crime against the state and is against Islam. Recently there have been some gay witch hunts in Senegal, even known homosexual's parents have been targeted. I have never understood this anti-gay mentality. And Senegal is considered one of the more progressive African nations!

[vid]

It's been pretty good for the past few years, but Canada doesn't have a good track record.

Homosexuality was legalized in Mexico in 1872, and in Canada in 1969. :frog:

[93JC]

I've always wanted to read a translation of the Koran, but I've been told in the past that it's one of the religious texts that can only truly be understood in the original Arabic. That's always seemed like a cop-out excuse to me, a way to just keep knowledge insular and the realm of the elite - but I honestly have no idea. Is that just something that fundamentalists say, or is it a widely held belief in Islam in general?

It's too bad. The bits and pieces I see tend to be the most extreme, violent passages [...] With the Koran, my impression at times has been that it's an instruction manual for war, which can't possibly be true.

Even in the original Arabic it requires a hefty amount of interpretation and can be understood many ways, just like the Bible. Unfortunately many of the verses of the Koran are mistranslated straight-up, often the "slay the infidels" passages that anti-islamic nutjobs love to quote. As far as I know (and granted I haven't read it cover to cover) there isn't even a single utterance of the word 'infidel' in the Koran at all.

[freeweed]

Even in the original Arabic it requires a hefty amount of interpretation and can be understood many ways, just like the Bible. Unfortunately many of the verses of the Koran are mistranslated straight-up, often the "slay the infidels" passages that anti-islamic nutjobs love to quote. As far as I know (and granted I haven't read it cover to cover) there isn't even a single utterance of the word 'infidel' in the Koran at all.

I'm gonna nitpick because it's fun, but I found it amusing that you addressed the word "infidel" and not "slay" - if you really want to defuse that mistranslation, you might want to address the actual scary part. :P

[rrskylar]

Understanding religion is the best way to debunk it, but schools shouldn't be used as a channel to distribute religious text.

100% bang on! The only place religious reading material belongs is in the restroom!

[MolsonExport]

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out.