[thurmas]

Found this article on TSN today:http://tsn.ca/nfl/story/?id=350461
I am starting to think though that the Argos can coexist with an NFL team. The Bills series really hasn't affected them at all. The seasons don't overlap that much, if the Argos can share a better football only stadium at Downsview and if people who buy NFL tickets must buy Argo tickets it could work.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Nope, no and no way.

[niwell]

Worst. Idea. Ever.

The Brothers Ford are delusional if they think this wouldn't cost the city hundreds of millions of taxpayers money. Gravy train indeed.

And there are way better plans for Downsview in the pipeline than a suburban stadium. They just want it there so there's another reason to never go downtown where pesky things like pedestrians, cyclists and streetcars get in the way of their SUVs (seriously, Doug Ford's doesn't, or didn't even fit in the City Hall parkade).

[yaletown_fella]

It's going to be privately funded. What's with the whole inferiority complex? Toronto is the fourth biggest market in Canada/U.S.., Can't ignore that

[SpongeG]

how did u guys let him become mayor? he sounds like a winner haha

[Bdog]

It's going to be privately funded. What's with the whole inferiority complex? Toronto is the fourth biggest market in Canada/U.S.., Can't ignore that

Privately funded? You know of many privately funded NFL stadiums? I can think of 1: Gillette Stadium...

[niwell]

It's going to be privately funded. What's with the whole inferiority complex? Toronto is the fourth biggest market in Canada/U.S.., Can't ignore that

With basically no background research they stated it would be privately funded. There is no way municipal money wouldn't be involved in attracting a major sports team and building a new venue, even if it's indirectly (grants, tax reductions etc). It would be unprecedented in today's age.

And Toronto as an NFL market isn't really all that hot. The Bill's never manage to sell out the skydome when they've played games here recently. Granted, this is partly to do with high ticket costs. That factor doesn't stop the Leafs though.

[thurmas]

It probably won't happen because the NFL wants to move back to L.A. way before any move to Toronto. My only point is I think the argos could survive with an NFL team in Toronto. I really doubt the stadium could be built through $20,000 seat licences. Dallas did it because it's the mother friggin Dallas Cowboys they are what the Leafs are to T.O. religon! Toronto football fans are the most fair weather and quiet fans on the planet. Look at the Bills series you have a stadium that seats 10 -15000 seats less than the average NFL ballpark and they still can't fill it when they are the corporate capital of Canada and have more than 5.5 million people!

[Nicko999]

Not going to happen...

[Highinthesky]

I think using the Bills games in Toronto is a poor indication of how the NFL would do in Toronto, even though they didn't do that poorly. All three of the regular season games had over 50,000 in attendance or better than 90%. Now this is for a Bills team which hasn't been competitive during any of the three seasons these games took place and these games were in Skydome which makes for a horrible football stadium. So all in all I can't think you can really say the Bills experiment in Toronto makes a case for the NFL not being hot in Toronto, if anything it shows that the NFL has promise.

Having said all this, L.A. gets a team before Toronto and the best bet for an NFL franchise in Toronto imo is when the Bill's owner dies and the team has to be sold.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I thought the CFL and NFL has an agreement where they agreed not to expand into each other's territory/nation?

[thurmas]

There is no non expansion territory agreement, also the success of the Bills series is false they only sold 38,000 the last game the rest of the 12,000 were free tickets given out to fill the stadium. They have had to also greatly reduce the ticket prices because fans were not willing to buy!

[Berklon]

The Bills in Toronto series really isnt a great indicator. Really, who wants to pay those ridiculous prices to watch another city's horrible team? Toronto isn't even a Bills town - there's a buttload of fans of many different NFL teams. Out of the hundered or so people I know who are NFL fans, only 2 of them are fans of the Bills.

The NFL in Toronto will be great.

[CorbeauNoir]

It's going to be privately funded. What's with the whole inferiority complex? Toronto is the fourth biggest market in Canada/U.S.., Can't ignore that

1) LA is the SECOND biggest market in Canada/US and don't have a team, get in line
2) Perhaps more than any other league the NFL is based upon tv contracts and advertising. Both of those are null and void in Canada as far as the States are concerned, how big it happens to be is irrelevant.

[-Harlington-]

theres room for one football team in torontos centre
prove you can fill a stadium for an argos game before this happens

[caltrane74]

they probably view canada and toronto as one in the same so a market or territory of 34 million to sublicense their sport in. The nfl makes money and canada makes money.

[Berklon]

theres room for one football team in torontos centre
prove you can fill a stadium for an argos game before this happens

By this logic the Leafs shouldn't exist since the Marlies have one of the worst attendance in the AHL.

CFL attendance has no bearing on how an NFL team will do.

You can bet an NFL team in Toronto will do MUCH better attendance than the Argos in their best years.

[Urban_Genius]

It's going to be privately funded. What's with the whole inferiority complex? Toronto is the fourth biggest market in Canada/U.S.., Can't ignore that

Uh actually yes they can. There's this town in California with 13 million people also being "ignored".

This will never happen. There's a better shot that the Leafs win the Stanley Cup than an NFL team in Canada. I love how Ford says "they'd HAVE to give us a team" and "would HAVE to bring a superbowl in the first couple years"
He really has no clue if he believes the NFL cares what he or anyone for that matter has to say. No matter how rich you are, you must play by the rules. Just ask Blackberry Jim.

Also as an aside, who is going to invest 2 billion dollars for a team which may or may not be justified financially? Remember that in the NFL, teams can't be owned by Corporations (Sorry Rogers, MLSE, etc) or by owners of other sport properties (That's two strikes). Toronto teams have almost never been owned by a lone individual.

People should read these two articles for the flipside
http://www.torontosun.com/sports/columnists/steve_simmons/2011/01/20/16968581.html
http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/nfl/article/926318

[Urban_Genius]

The Bills in Toronto series really isnt a great indicator. Really, who wants to pay those ridiculous prices to watch another city's horrible team? Toronto isn't even a Bills town - there's a buttload of fans of many different NFL teams. Out of the hundered or so people I know who are NFL fans, only 2 of them are fans of the Bills.

The NFL in Toronto will be great.

See nobody was saying that before the Series began. If you recall, the claim was that Toronto would pay ANY price to get tickets, that this was the biggest sports event in Toronto's history and that there would be a line up from Skydome all the way to Mississauga. They even held a lottery, thinking that this would be a colossal success. What happened?

You want the NFL on a full time basis, expect those prices. Especially if you'd be playing in Skydome. Now obviously, the NFL isn't going to Toronto and certainly not to play in Skydome so it's a moot point.

[thurmas]

Also Toronto NFL fans knew that if they showed up to the Bills series it would give Toronto a much better shot at a team because the NFL would know that the fans in Toronto want NFL but they didn't, showing how fickle and fair weather Toronto football fans are. I will take Bombers, Riders, Steelers, Packers, Bears fans over Toronto fans any day because Toronto fans are not real football fans they just never show up Argos or NFL.

[ToxiK]

the Leafs shouldn't exist

I think we can all agree with that... :D

[ToxiK]

they probably view canada and toronto as one in the same so a market or territory of 34 million to sublicense their sport in.

You are probably right. MLB and the NBA do see Canada like that.

[BretttheRiderFan]

First of all, has Toronto sold out ONE of those games for the Bills Series? No they haven't

Maybe some Torontonians should get it through your thick skulls that showing up to those games will HELP you land a team

Also, showing up to the CFL games will also HELP rather than hurt that

I don't see it happening, because obviously the majority of people in Toronto could care less, and from the comments online a minority of people there want an NFL team

And there is no way that the team could play in the Rogers Centre, and I'm hearing that only a private company would be able to finance it which I don't see happening

Also, there still is a large percentage of CFL fans in Toronto that would have absolutely no part of this

And the ROC, which is overwhelmingly more CFL fans than NFL fans would oppose this as well

Toronto is also probably the worst sports city in North America when it comes to supporting the teams you have especially for a city of over 5 million (ie Jays, Argos, Raptors which all get less support than they should)

[WhipperSnapper]

Both the Jays and Raptors have had decent support over the years considering they have done nothing. I remember going to Yankee stadium at game time and getting quality seats back when the Jays were on top of the league.

[BretttheRiderFan]

Both the Jays and Raptors have had decent support over the years considering they have done nothing. I remember going to Yankee stadium at game time and getting quality seats back when the Jays were on top of the league.

I'm talking about now, not the early 90's

The Jays averaged just around 20,000 last year despite winning nearly 90 games and they have consistenly had winning teams the last 5 years or so

Especially in a market the size of Toronto, the Jays should get at least 10,000 more each game

The Raptors had good support but are slipping now because they lost Bosh, and their TV ratings are almost non-existent. They are only averaging in the 16,000s right now, which is about middle of the pack

When you have such a large percent of the population that is against getting a team, I can't imagine the NFL giving Toronto a team until Toronto actually wants one

[Mister F]

The NFL in Mexico City was far more successful than the Bills games in Toronto. Not to mention Mexico doesn't have a domestic gridiron league. If the NFL ever expands outside the United States, it'll be there and not Canada.

I never understood people's obsession with trying to get Canadian teams into American sports leagues. Does any other country do this?

[MolsonExport]

Bah, fark the NFL. I can't stand it. I really cannot relate to watching two American city teams (for which I have zero connection to) slug it out. I enjoy a bit of CFL now and then. But then, I prefer Canadian Football rules.

[Berklon]

See nobody was saying that before the Series began. If you recall, the claim was that Toronto would pay ANY price to get tickets, that this was the biggest sports event in Toronto's history and that there would be a line up from Skydome all the way to Mississauga. They even held a lottery, thinking that this would be a colossal success. What happened?

Easy. They forgot that people wouldn't pay insane prices to watch someone else's crappy team. Give Toronto their own team and it's a different story.

You want the NFL on a full time basis, expect those prices.

Ummm... no. You don't expect these prices. The price was set WAY above the average NFL ticket price. Why should Toronto expect those prices if most NFL teams have theirs set much lower?

[niwell]

Maybe some Torontonians should get it through your thick skulls that showing up to those games will HELP you land a team




You act like this is something Torontonians are demanding instead of our idiot mayor and the real mayor (his brother) decided would be a good thing. Context helps, you know?

[North of 49]

Majority of Torontoians or GTA citizens are out hacking a living to bother coming to watch a game. They could care less about getting season's tickets. Maybe the odd game or two a year. After your taxes are paid and the bills are paid what do you end up. It's just a minority of middle income and high middle income earners that will go out to see these professional sports on a regular basis. It's like this for most cities out there.

Go out and ask 10 random people and ask how many of them have season's tickets for any of the pro sports teams in the GTA.

You'd be lucky to get 20%

[Bdog]

Majority of Torontoians or GTA citizens are out hacking a living to bother coming to watch a game. They could care less about getting season's tickets. Maybe the odd game or two a year. After your taxes are paid and the bills are paid what do you end up. It's just a minority of middle income and high middle income earners that will go out to see these professional sports on a regular basis. It's like this for most cities out there.

Go out and ask 10 random people and ask how many of them have season's tickets for any of the pro sports teams in the GTA.

You'd be lucky to get 20%

^Lucky to get 20%????? If 20% of people in the GTA had season tickets to pro sports (arguably 5 teams: Leafs, Raps, Jays, Argos and FC), that would mean over 1 million would have to have season tickets... Obviously there aren't 1 million season tickets to be gotten

[yaletown_fella]

The Raptors have a very loyal fanbase including myself. I mean compare our GTA support for the Raps to that of the Atlanta Hawks, one of the glitziest, wealthiest cities in the U.S with a greater population around the size of Toronto. nuff' said!
Then factor in Toronto's corporate muscle. If Rogers takes over we'll be in the playoffs in 2 years. Guarantee it. We've been blessed with young talent. All we need is smart L.A style leadership. I'm actually happy Bosh left. Despite obvious talent he was overpriced and injury prone.
Get rid of the lazy asses at MLSE/Teachers, Fire Colagnelo and let Anthropolous take over and work his magic.
The only thing that'll get in the way is the NBA's criminal officiating
I feel sorry for Triano.

[manny_santos]

The NFL in Mexico City was far more successful than the Bills games in Toronto. Not to mention Mexico doesn't have a domestic gridiron league. If the NFL ever expands outside the United States, it'll be there and not Canada.

I never understood people's obsession with trying to get Canadian teams into American sports leagues. Does any other country do this?

Mexico City also has a metro population over 5 times that of Toronto's.

I think the obsession with getting Canadian teams into American sports leagues is because of the NHL being a cross-border league from day one; I would speculate that some sports fans feel that Toronto and New York have both always had NHL teams, then why not other leagues. I think it's also a product of our heavy cultural association with the United States. I would speculate the obsession is a lot less in Quebec than in Ontario.

[BretttheRiderFan]

The Raptors have a very loyal fanbase including myself. I mean compare our GTA support for the Raps to that of the Atlanta Hawks, one of the glitziest, wealthiest cities in the U.S with a greater population around the size of Toronto. nuff' said!
Then factor in Toronto's corporate muscle. If Rogers takes over we'll be in the playoffs in 2 years. Guarantee it. We've been blessed with young talent. All we need is smart L.A style leadership. I'm actually happy Bosh left. Despite obvious talent he was overpriced and injury prone.
Get rid of the lazy asses at MLSE/Teachers, Fire Colagnelo and let Anthropolous take over and work his magic. The only thing that'll get in the way is the NBA's criminal officiating
I feel sorry for Triano.

Hire a baseball GM to be the Raptors GM, you'll miss the days of Colangelo pretty quick :haha:

With the way Rogers has run the Jays the last 10 years, what makes you think the Raptors would improve so quick?

[BretttheRiderFan]

You act like this is something Torontonians are demanding instead of our idiot mayor and the real mayor (his brother) decided would be a good thing. Context helps, you know?

I know most Torontonians aren't like that, but I'm talking about the vocal minority who have wanted this for years, not just Ford

[yaletown_fella]

Hire a baseball GM to be the Raptors GM, you'll miss the days of Colangelo pretty quick :haha:

With the way Rogers has run the Jays the last 10 years, what makes you think the Raptors would improve so quick?

Well for one thing the Raptors aint in the MLB East! ;)

[P Unit]

I'm not even a football fan but I'd love to see Toronto get an NFL team, just because the idea of it seems to infuriate so many sports fans from the rest of the country.

[Acajack]

The following statements are true:

The Bills Toronto series is not an accurate indication of how a locally-based NFL team in Toronto would do, because of the inflated ticket prices, the fact that the Bills have just been parachuted into Toronto, and the whole cash-grab aura of the entire scheme. A Toronto NFL club based in the city operating like any other NFL club would likely do very well. As well or better than most NFL clubs in the U.S.

The problem, though, is that the lacklustre result of the Bills in Toronto series is the only thing concrete the NFL has to go on as a gauge of true NFL interest in Toronto. People can say "we would, if only..." all they want, but a multi-billion dollar league like the NFL doesn't generally operate on IFs...

As I have said before, I have no doubt Torontonians would step up and support an NFL club if it were their own. But with the half-pregnancy flop that is the Bills Toronto series, Ted Rogers and company may have blown it for the foreseeable future when it comes to (some people's) the Toronto NFL dream.

[thurmas]

How do you know it would be a success the Bills series had Jay Cutler, Peyton Manning and Mark Sanchez come to town, some of the biggest names in the NFL and they couldn't sell out! I know the Bills wouldn't draw much but the visiting teams should have. Also the tickets were priced more because Skydome seats much less than typical NFL stadiums. Look at the fan bases of the Raiders, Steelers, Giants ect.. and how loyal and fanatical they are and then look at Toronto sports fans other than the leafs it's a joke. They are so quiet, bland, fair weather that they simply don't deserve an NFL team.

[Acajack]

How do you know it would be a success the Bills series had Jay Cutler, Peyton Manning and Mark Sanchez come to town, some of the biggest names in the NFL and they couldn't sell out! I know the Bills wouldn't draw much but the visiting teams should have. Also the tickets were priced more because Skydome seats much less than typical NFL stadiums. Look at the fan bases of the Raiders, Steelers, Giants ect.. and how loyal and fanatical they are and then look at Toronto sports fans other than the leafs it's a joke. They are so quiet, bland, fair weather that they simply don't deserve an NFL team.

One-night-stands like the Bills Toronto series don't flatter the ego of Torontonians. They want the ring on the finger that is a bona fide NFL club with Toronto's name on it.

Anyway, it's a moot point because as I said I think the relative failure of the Bills in Toronto makes an NFL club in Toronto very unlikely for the foreseeable future.

[Bdog]

How do you know it would be a success the Bills series had Jay Cutler, Peyton Manning and Mark Sanchez come to town, some of the biggest names in the NFL and they couldn't sell out! I know the Bills wouldn't draw much but the visiting teams should have. Also the tickets were priced more because Skydome seats much less than typical NFL stadiums. Look at the fan bases of the Raiders, Steelers, Giants ect.. and how loyal and fanatical they are and then look at Toronto sports fans other than the leafs it's a joke. They are so quiet, bland, fair weather that they simply don't deserve an NFL team.

Jay Cutler... Biggest names in the NFL? lol

[thurmas]

He is a name and I am a Bears fan and it really stinks this morning, but still Toronto had Urlacher, PEYTON FRIGGIN MANNING come to town and they couldn't sell out knowing it would help their cause into luring an NFL team. Yes tickets were expensive but it was just one game not a whole season and the stadium seats much less than that of typical NFL stadiums and Toronto is the 4th largest city in NORTH AMERICA.Face it their fans suck and I feel bad for Bills Fans in Buffalo WHO ARE REAL FANS they shouldn't have to share their team they love the Bills they get 70,000+ for many games even though the Bills suck the past decade and their economy is in the toilet.

[Jay in Cowtown]

Toronto wouldn't get an NFL team without building or commit to building a new stadium, Rogers Centre is too small and dated for the NFL. LA's building a new one and will probably end up with the Jaguars. The only other teams that could possibly relocate might be Oakland, St. Louis, San Diego and Buffalo... which all but Buffalo will probably build new stadiums before losing their teams. The Toronto Bills are the most probable... and we all know how warm of a welcome they get.

I think the London, England Bills are a better possibility... they actually sell out 90'000 seats when the NFL comes to town!

[samne]

Watching those frigid games on TV yesterday.

I really cant see Toronto filling up outdoor stadiums and supporting teams in this kind of weather. Sure our most popular game is played on ice, but indoors.

Anyways, just an attempt by the Ford brothers to grab headlines while NFL season is at its peak.

[Acajack]

Toronto wouldn't get an NFL team without building or commit to building a new stadium, Rogers Centre is too small and dated for the NFL. LA's building a new one and will probably end up with the Jaguars. The only other teams that could possibly relocate might be St. Louis, San Diego and Buffalo... which all but Buffalo will probably build new stadiums before losing their teams. The Toronto Bills are the most probable... and we all know how warm of a welcome they get.

I think the London, England Bills are a better possibility... they actually sell out 90'000 seats when the NFL comes to town!

Mexico City has also done better that Toronto when the NFL comes to town (albeit with lower ticket prices), though I don't think an NFL club there is in the cards.

I think that what we will see is the NFL returning to Los Angeles and that will be about it for a while.

[tovan]

Despite all this talk of the NFL coming to town, I doubt it will happen. First, the barriers to entry are too great. The cost of buying an NFL has been estimated at a cost of $1B, add to that the cost of building a new stadium or significantly redeveloping Rogers Centre. The cost would be at least $2B and if anyone thinks that any level of government will provide any form of funding is nuts. I don't see any private investor willing to pony up $2B on bringing an NFL team to Toronto.

Second, there is the CFL and the Argonauts. Would the NFL be willing to risk harming the 2nd largest and most established professional gridiron league in the world that in some ways acts as a pseudo development league? The fact that the CFL exists also reinforces the NFL's position in the eyes of US antitrust regulators. Competition for players = competition in the market = not a monopoly. Having the CFL around benefits the NFL. The CFL has a long history and tradition in Toronto, NFL would likely hurt the Argonauts and Tiger-Cats and could potentially lead to the CFL's demise. Don't expect the Argonauts, CFL, and some in the government to roll over for the NFL, see proposal for Canadian Football Act 1974 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Football_Act) though the concept/context is somewhat dated. Like it or not, there is value in protecting a Canadian cultural tradition/institution for both Canadians and the NFL. Canadian football and the Argos deserve better.

Finally, although many claim there is enough interest in the NFL game in Toronto to bring a team there, there simply isn't. The NFL as a league is built on hype, though the Bills Series may provide a poor indication of how successful a 'local' team may be, the fact is that poor attendance and limited fan excitement will do nothing to help the appeal of bringing a team to Toronto. The NFL isn't looking for the type of quiet corporate environment Toronto will bring, let alone less than packed houses, and expensive tickets. They want to be able to market the hype: crazy screaming fans, sold out stadiums, tailgate parties, etc. Judging by the Bills Series and Leaf games, that's something Toronto can't and won't bring to the NFL. Toronto is supposedly hockey crazy and support for the Leafs is the highest out of all the teams in the NHL. If the Leafs can't muster up fanatical fan support in Toronto, what makes anyone think that the NFL can? The NFL wants nothing more than to be the biggest player in town, in Toronto, it would have to settle for being #2 behind hockey.

[craner]

Toronto wouldn't get an NFL team without building or commit to building a new stadium, Rogers Centre is too small and dated for the NFL. LA's building a new one and will probably end up with the Jaguars. The only other teams that could possibly relocate might be Oakland, St. Louis, San Diego and Buffalo... which all but Buffalo will probably build new stadiums before losing their teams. The Toronto Bills are the most probable... and we all know how warm of a welcome they get.

I think the London, England Bills are a better possibility... they actually sell out 90'000 seats when the NFL comes to town!

This is the first I've heard of the Rams possibly moving. It's hard to think of that dome stadiium in StL. as very old but I suppose it's about 15 years now ?

[SpikePhanta]

St. Louis got a new owner, the guy who owns the denver pro teams.

[craner]

^ Thanks.

Just thought of the Vikings as well - aren't they threatening to leave Minny once their lease is up at the Metrodome if a new building isn't in the works ?

[Jay in Cowtown]

This is the first I've heard of the Rams possibly moving. It's hard to think of that dome stadiium in StL. as very old but I suppose it's about 15 years now ?

Yeah, I guess not... I thought I heard Spagnuolo wanted a new stadium or else, but I guess he settled for reno's.

The Vikings are threatening to leave Minny at the end of their stadium contract if they don't get a new stadium, and there is a design for one, but the city/state has built new baseball and college stadiums in the last 2 years. So plans for a new Vikings stadium are on hold for now, even though the dome deflation has brought up the issue again.

Apparently you can add Baltimore to a list of teams having financial difficulty, not stadium issues. The Toronto Ravens anyone?

[BretttheRiderFan]

Watching those frigid games on TV yesterday.

I really cant see Toronto filling up outdoor stadiums and supporting teams in this kind of weather. Sure our most popular game is played on ice, but indoors.

Anyways, just an attempt by the Ford brothers to grab headlines while NFL season is at its peak.

Torontonians are pussies is what you're saying

[Only The Lonely..]

Finally, although many claim there is enough interest in the NFL game in Toronto to bring a team there, there simply isn't. The NFL as a league is built on hype, though the Bills Series may provide a poor indication of how successful a 'local' team may be, the fact is that poor attendance and limited fan excitement will do nothing to help the appeal of bringing a team to Toronto. The NFL isn't looking for the type of quiet corporate environment Toronto will bring, let alone less than packed houses, and expensive tickets. They want to be able to market the hype: crazy screaming fans, sold out stadiums, tailgate parties, etc. Judging by the Bills Series and Leaf games, that's something Toronto can't and won't bring to the NFL. Toronto is supposedly hockey crazy and support for the Leafs is the highest out of all the teams in the NHL. If the Leafs can't muster up fanatical fan support in Toronto, what makes anyone think that the NFL can? The NFL wants nothing more than to be the biggest player in town, in Toronto, it would have to settle for being #2 behind hockey.



How do you know it would be a success the Bills series had Jay Cutler, Peyton Manning and Mark Sanchez come to town, some of the biggest names in the NFL and they couldn't sell out! I know the Bills wouldn't draw much but the visiting teams should have. Also the tickets were priced more because Skydome seats much less than typical NFL stadiums. Look at the fan bases of the Raiders, Steelers, Giants ect.. and how loyal and fanatical they are and then look at Toronto sports fans other than the leafs it's a joke. They are so quiet, bland, fair weather that they simply don't deserve an NFL team.

I have to agree.

Tailgate culture just doesn't exist in Toronto; hence it isn't a very good football town.

I have a hard time imagining people in the Big Smoke getting drunk in their cars hours ahead of a game.

Now if any of Canada's prairie cities had Toronto's population I could see it, but not otherwise.

[P Unit]

Yeah, I definitely think the lack of tailgate culture would hamper Toronto's attendance figures, and I think it's just as important to look at demographics of the GTA. All things being equal, I would wager that you could sell out a cricket match between two top global teams faster than you could sell out an NFL game in this city.

[SpikePhanta]

^ Thanks.

Just thought of the Vikings as well - aren't they threatening to leave Minny once their lease is up at the Metrodome if a new building isn't in the works ?

There was a rumour that the vikings would have left for LA (most likely just something for negotiations.


Apparently you can add Baltimore to a list of teams having financial difficulty, not stadium issues. The Toronto Ravens anyone?

That would be funny, since the CFL was in Baltimore, and showed that the pro football could work in the city (hence the city getting NFL team)

[Berklon]

I think the London, England Bills are a better possibility... they actually sell out 90'000 seats when the NFL comes to town!

Ya, big difference though. How often do people in England get to see an NFL game? People in Southern Ontario can just go to Buffalo or Detroit to watch games for dirt cheap. They dont have to spend big bucks to watch a game in TO where they don't care about either team.

You wanna know if Southern Ontario cares about the NFL? Look at the front page of the newspapers today and the day after the Super Bowl. Watch the sports news and see which games get mentioned first. Check the television ratings every weekend during football season and check to see how many people are watching the Super Bowl.

And remember, people are following this league when it doesn't even have a Canadian team in it. You can bet your sweet bippy they'll care even more if the NFL had a team in Toronto.

I work in Toronto and I know at least 100 people who follow the NFL, but know only 2 that follow the CFL.

[Bdog]

You wanna know if Southern Ontario cares about the NFL? Look at the front page of the newspapers today and the day after the Super Bowl. Watch the sports news and see which games get mentioned first. Check the television ratings every weekend during football season and check to see how many people are watching the Super Bowl.


You're right, front page Superbowl champions is exclusively a Toronto thing...:shrug:

[Urban_Genius]

I work in Toronto and I know at least 100 people who follow the NFL, but know only 2 that follow the CFL.
That doesn't mean there's not any CFL fans either. People tend to bond with people with common interests. It doesn't surprise me that an NFL fan first and foremost would be friends with other NFL fans. Just like the opposite would be true.

This is a pretty good article, mind you it's quite old.
http://www.thestar.com/article/153951

[The_Architect]

Torontonians are pussies is what you're saying

I have to agree.

Tailgate culture just doesn't exist in Toronto; hence it isn't a very good football town.

I have a hard time imagining people in the Big Smoke getting drunk in their cars hours ahead of a game.

Now if any of Canada's prairie cities had Toronto's population I could see it, but not otherwise.

Holy Toronto-bashing thread Batman!

[thurmas]

It's super easy to FOLLOW the NFL because that is free but ya gotta put your money where your mouth is and not enough Torontonians buy football tickets for CFL or NFL. Toronto with such a huge immigrant population has no roots to pro football but it does to soccer and cricket!

[trueviking]

i thought the thread title was 'NHL Coming to Toronto'....i thought wow...that will be great to finally have NHL calibre hockey in Toronto. :)

[RTD]

Holy Toronto-bashing thread Batman!

Geez people from Toronto are sensitive! ;)

[The_Architect]

Geez people from Toronto are sensitive! ;)

There's a bit of a difference between talking about why Winnipeg won't get an NHL franchise, including a small market, small arena, and the NHL not wanting to relocate, and calling Torontonians pussies and not real fans. So no, not sensitive, just amazed at the unwarranted Toronto hate.

[RTD]

There's a bit of a difference between talking about why Winnipeg won't get an NHL franchise, including a small market, small arena, and the NHL not wanting to relocate, and calling Torontonians pussies and not real fans. So no, not sensitive, just amazed at the unwarranted Toronto hate.

Wrong. When people continue with the "small market, small arena, no corporate sponsorship, etc" with regards to not allowing Winnipeg an NHL team, despite the fact that this has ALL BEEN PROVEN WRONG by the NHL themselves, just to push certain people's buttons, then no, there isn't a big difference between trying to minimize Winnipeg's capabilities vs. minimizing Toronto's capabilities.

But according to you, it's all about the hate here, so I'll back off now and let the "Toronto-centric bashing" continue.

[Mister F]

If the Leafs can't muster up fanatical fan support in Toronto, what makes anyone think that the NFL can?
Oh they get fanatical support...you just have to go to Buffalo, Ottawa and Montreal to see it.

[BretttheRiderFan]

Ya, big difference though. How often do people in England get to see an NFL game? People in Southern Ontario can just go to Buffalo or Detroit to watch games for dirt cheap. They dont have to spend big bucks to watch a game in TO where they don't care about either team.

You wanna know if Southern Ontario cares about the NFL? Look at the front page of the newspapers today and the day after the Super Bowl. Watch the sports news and see which games get mentioned first. Check the television ratings every weekend during football season and check to see how many people are watching the Super Bowl.

And remember, people are following this league when it doesn't even have a Canadian team in it. You can bet your sweet bippy they'll care even more if the NFL had a team in Toronto.

I work in Toronto and I know at least 100 people who follow the NFL, but know only 2 that follow the CFL.

Funny, seeing as how the Argos get the biggest crowds of any sports team in your city, and the last time the Skydome was sold out for a sporting event was for the Grey Cup 4 years ago :haha:

[BretttheRiderFan]

There's a bit of a difference between talking about why Winnipeg won't get an NHL franchise, including a small market, small arena, and the NHL not wanting to relocate, and calling Torontonians pussies and not real fans. So no, not sensitive, just amazed at the unwarranted Toronto hate.

I'd say it's pretty warranted

Comments like "I don't want to sit out in the cold and watch football while the rest of the continent has no problem with it", and the simple fact that Toronto sports teams pull in far less fan support than other cities of similar size, it's no wonder we love to bash Toronto so much.

[BretttheRiderFan]

It's super easy to FOLLOW the NFL because that is free but ya gotta put your money where your mouth is and not enough Torontonians buy football tickets for CFL or NFL. Toronto with such a huge immigrant population has no roots to pro football but it does to soccer and cricket!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto

This whole immigrant excuse is really lame

The city of Toronto is 49.9% foreign born

I don't know the stats for the the metro area, but I'm sure those figures would be a bit lower in the Toronto CMA

So let's say not one immigrant ever watches NFL, CFL, NHL, or MLB, or NBA

That is still a market of nearly 3 million born and bred Canadians

The vast majority of children of immigrants are quickly immersed into the greater Canadian culture (I live in Edmonton and the biggest Eskimo and Oiler fanatic I know is East Indian)

As for cricket or soccer being an easier sell in Toronto than the NFL or other North American sports, not a chance

Of the large ethnic groups in Toronto, the ones where cricket is a traditional sport are South Asians, which make up 12% of the city's population

And with the level of cricket coverage we have in this country, I think it's safe to say an NFL game would have more potential support than a cricket match, and I'm sure the only way a cricket match would be a big enough success is if India is playing

As for soccer, well the bigger immigrant groups in Toronto like South Asians, Chinese, Filipinos, South East Asians aren't hot spots for the sport

The big communities that are crazy for soccer are the Italians, Latin Americans, and other European immigrants

These groups aren't even close to being as wide a demographic as the home-born Canadian market is in Toronto

[MonkeyRonin]

Toronto...has no roots to pro football

No roots? The Argonauts are the oldest pro football team in North America.

[The_Architect]

It's super easy to FOLLOW the NFL because that is free but ya gotta put your money where your mouth is and not enough Torontonians buy football tickets for CFL or NFL. Toronto with such a huge immigrant population has no roots to pro football but it does to soccer and cricket!

The first recorded game of football was at the University of Toronto..:sly:

[Highinthesky]

Funny, seeing as how the Argos get the biggest crowds of any sports team in your city, and the last time the Skydome was sold out for a sporting event was for the Grey Cup 4 years ago :haha:

The Argos get the biggest crowds in the city? See this is the problem with taking Averages. In 2010 the Argos had 8 homes games and averaged 21,715 fans a game with the largest single game attendance being 24,493.
The Blue Jays played 81 games and averaged 20,068 fans a game yet their highest single game attendance was 46,321. In fact over the course of the season the Jays had 4 games in which they sold more than 40,000 tickets and another 8 in which they sold over 30,000. The Jays actually had 263% percent more games in which they sold more than the Argos best day in attedence, so in fact the Argos aren't even close to getting the biggest crowds in the city.

[Jay in Cowtown]

I work in Toronto and I know at least 100 people who follow the NFL, but know only 2 that follow the CFL.

I'd say the NFL has a big following everywhere in Canada, not just S. Ontario. Like I said before, I actually know more people that went to NFL games this year than Stamps games (no bullshit), but most of the people I associate with are football fans and watch both leagues, only a few are exclusive to one or the other.

I understand alot of people in Toronto feel they are too "big league" for the 8 team CFL, and maybe so... but would the CFL survive if the Argo's went to London, Windsor or somewhere else in S. Ontario? If so, I could care less if Toronto gets an NFL team, I'd still cheer for the Texans anyway!!! :tup:

[thurmas]

Don't spin my words I said the immigrant community in Toronto has no roots to pro football I didn't say the city itself. The Argos are what 140 years old. What I don't understand is cities like Vancouver and Montreal with just as many if not more attractions than Toronto has for the entertainment dollar support their CFL teams while Toronto does not.Hopefully David Brayley will come up with a good long term plan.

[yaletown_fella]

Toronto's problem is it always gets clowns managing the team.
It''s kind of petty to bash the people who work to keep half the country afloat through equalization, no?
Toronto isn't alone in this respect. Look at the NBA attendance in Atlanta.
If you got rid of salary cap in major league sports both Toronto and Atlanta would be selling out stadiums and winning 2x as much.

[MrOilers]

Here's why NFL in Toronto makes no sense:

- Toronto already has a football team, and fans don't even fill Rogers Center 1/2 full to watch them (don't think that the NFL doesn't pay attention to that)
- Toronto doesn't have an NFL-caliber stadium, and they don't sell out the NFL games played there
- NFL TV ratings do well in Canada without any Canadian-based NFL teams
- There are viable markets in the USA where football is huge, but still without NFL teams (Los Angeles, San Antonio)
- And finally, the NFL recognizes that the CFL is good for the NFL. Firstly, the CFL is really the only successful and self-sustaining gridiron football league outside the USA. Quite a few players move betwen leagues (the CFL has been a better league for the sport than the European NFL) and Toronto is the CFL's biggest market. Most Canadian football fans follow both leagues (CFL maintains interest in football here up in Canada), and losing Toronto's CFL team would hurt the football fan base all across Canada (which is currently growing, largely in part due to the CFL finding new-found success). Without the CFL, fewer people in Canada (and there are millions of them outside of Toronto) would get to see football live, and would lose interest in the sport, which would likely hurt the NFLs TV gravy train in Canada.

Like a previous poster said, the NFL will likely expand to Mexico City (a country that has no gridiron football, and a massive potential new market) before it even considers moving into Canada.

[MrOilers]

Look at the NBA attendance in Atlanta.


Atlanta's sports market is far, far different from Toronto.

Pro sports in Atlanta do OK, but the Braves, Falcons, and Hawks still often have difficulty filling the seats no matter how successful the teams are doing, nor who the owners are. Amateur sports in Atlanta are much more popular than pro sports, for whatever reason.


Toronto just doesn't like football very much. Not enough to convince anyone that they deserve an NFL franchise, anyway.

[Berklon]

That doesn't mean there's not any CFL fans either. People tend to bond with people with common interests. It doesn't surprise me that an NFL fan first and foremost would be friends with other NFL fans. Just like the opposite would be true.

I agree with you on that point, but In my scenario all these people are co-workers. They aren't bonded together on a personal level... they're here due to their job. So it's a random sample of people who work in an office environment.

[Acajack]

Like a previous poster said, the NFL will likely expand to Mexico City (a country that has no gridiron football, and a massive potential new market) before it even considers moving into Canada.

The NFL would NEVER expand into Mexico. The players' union would go absolutely nuts at this prospect! Though it is true that good attendance at NFL games in Mexico - with much less of a gridiron football tradition than Canada - does make Toronto look comparatively bad in its NFL flirtations.

[Acajack]

It''s kind of petty to bash the people who work to keep half the country afloat through equalization, no?
.

WTF!?!?! Equalization! In a discussion about the NFL in Toronto????????? Noooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Highinthesky]

The comparisons of CFL attendance in Toronto or how the Bills draw, a bad team people from Toronto can drive about 2 hours to see anyway, to how an NFL team would do in Toronto are really stupid. Please stop now.

Its like saying the NHL won't make it in Winnipeg because the Moose can't sell out the MTS Centre for every game.

[drew]

^ this is true.

[caltrane74]

We need a new stadium before the NFL comes here.

LA would probably get a team first.

[Acajack]

The comparisons of CFL attendance in Toronto or how the Bills draw, a bad team people from Toronto can drive about 2 hours to see anyway, to how an NFL team would do in Toronto are really stupid. Please stop now.

Its like saying the NHL won't make it in Winnipeg because the Moose can't sell out the MTS Centre for every game.

True. I honestly think a Toronto NFL team would fairly easily sell out every single home game in 75,000-seat stadium for the first 10-15 years of its existence. Even if it stunk.

The problem for the Toronto NFL dreamers is that the only things concrete (in a put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is) on Toronto the NFL has before it are A) the Argos' attendance and B) the Bills in Toronto attendance.

People who run multi-billion-dollar enterprises like the NFL aren't big on leaps of faith. So saying "give us a team and they will come" won't likely cut it with one of the world's fussiest sports leagues.

It might have actually been better for Toronto-in-the-NFL if those Bills games at Rogers Centre had never taken place.

[MrOilers]

The comparisons of CFL attendance in Toronto or how the Bills draw, a bad team people from Toronto can drive about 2 hours to see anyway, to how an NFL team would do in Toronto are really stupid.

Why?

If anything, the lacklustre support for gridiron football exemplified by Toronto at all levels illustrates that a multibillion dollar football deal in Toronto is a gamble at best.

And really, what would be the big payoff for the NFL if it worked? TV ratings and merchandise sales for the NFL are already good in Canada, despite not having any NFL teams here.

[Highinthesky]

Why? Did you not read my entire post? You are taking an orange that doesn't do well saying that's why Apples won't either.

It is fact that there is no correlation between how the Marlies do in attendance and how the Leafs do so why would you compare CFL attendance to how an NFL team would do?
The only fair comparison is to take the Bills performance. However as I said the Bills have stunk the entire time they have done games in Toronto.
That is ignoring the impact of Skydome as a very poor football stadium. In the 19 years prior to moving to Skydome the Argos averaged over 35,000 a season, in the 22 years since the Argos have averaged 24,000.
Or the fact that if you look at ticket prices the Bills in Toronto is nothing more than cash grab from Toronto NFL fans which is an insult.

It all just adds up to it being a very silly point to be making.

[MrOilers]

I did read your post, but attendance for a farm team or amateur team vs. a professional league is different than attendance between two different professional leagues. I don't think it's silly comparison at all.

[Highinthesky]

Sure the CFL is a professional league but comparing the talent levels and product on the field are very similar to comparing an NHL team to its AHL affiliate or an MLB team to its AAA team.

I wonder if MLB took the failure of the Maple Leafs in the 1960s into consideration when deciding whether to award Toronto an MLB team in the 1970s. I doubt it for the same reasons comparing the CFL to NFL isn't appropriate.

[craner]

But what else does the NFL have to base it's decision on besides Argos attendance and the Bills in Toronto games ?
Not saying it''s an accurate reflection of how an actual Toronto team would draw in the NFL but I don't see what else an outsider has to go by in terms of actual data.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not a Toronto hater and I would love to see an NFL team in Toronto. They would no doubt become "Canada's Team" much like the Blue Jays and the Raptors. I know they would become the team I would cheer for.

My only concern would be the effect on the Argos and in turn the CFL as I am one of those who enjoy both brands of football. :)

[Acajack]

Sure the CFL is a professional league but comparing the talent levels and product on the field are very similar to comparing an NHL team to its AHL affiliate or an MLB team to its AAA team.

I wonder if MLB took the failure of the Maple Leafs in the 1960s into consideration when deciding whether to award Toronto an MLB team in the 1970s. I doubt it for the same reasons comparing the CFL to NFL isn't appropriate.

I think you are seriously underestimating the calibre of the CFL, but regardless...

There are many NFL cities in the US that also support local NCAA football teams with attendance of 50,000 or more: Denver, Miami, Minneapolis, Seattle, Denver, etc. to name but a few. And if you bring the NCAA attendance threshold down to the CFL average of 30,000, you would find that the vast majority of NFL cities also support a local NCAA football team quite well thank you very much.

People in these cities don't consider NCAA to be "beneath" them, in spite of the fact that the calibre of play is inferior to both the NFL AND the CFL.

[shreddog]

A few weeks ago, the Globe carried an interesting article that is relevant to the discussion of the NFL in Toronto. You can decide whether it is positive or negative ...


Why L.A. won't get an NFL team any time soon

Why has Los Angeles, the second largest city in the U.S., been without a National Football League franchise since 1994?

It’s economics ... so minimize costs and maximize revenues.

Player salaries are the largest component of an NFL franchise’s costs. Yet franchises have limited room to cut salaries.

...

So NFL franchises cut costs by negotiating sweetheart deals with their host cities.

...

If Minneapolis isn’t prepared to contribute to the cost of repairing the Vikings’ stadium’s collapsed roof, another city will likely offer the Vikings a new home and tax concessions.

...

The NFL, however, is egalitarian. All national revenues, such as sales of television rights, are divided 32 ways. Each NFL franchise receives an equal share.

...

In 2010, three-fifths of the Packer’s income - $157- out of $258-million – came from its 1/32 share of national revenues.

The revenue sharing system means there is little incentive for a team to move from a small to a large market.
...

At the same time, the revenue protection created by equal sharing means that teams are very mobile. That mobility allows franchises to push for taxpayer subsidies, lowering costs.

But the NFL is not concerned with profits, anyways. It is a tax-exempt non-profit organization.


Rest of the story (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economy-lab/the-economists/why-la-wont-get-an-nfl-team-any-time-soon/article1870265/)

Not sure how this "squares the circle" with the Ford's comments about no gov't subsidies ... but then again I was confused when they said that after saying the Feds would donate land at Downsview?

[Highinthesky]

I think you are seriously underestimating the calibre of the CFL, but regardless...

There are many NFL cities in the US that also support local NCAA football teams with attendance of 50,000 or more: Denver, Miami, Minneapolis, Seattle, Denver, etc. to name but a few. And if you bring the NCAA attendance threshold down to the CFL average of 30,000, you would find that the vast majority of NFL cities also support a local NCAA football team quite well thank you very much.

People in these cities don't consider NCAA to be "beneath" them, in spite of the fact that the calibre of play is inferior to both the NFL AND the CFL.

This whole post is more of the same thing, comparing apples to oranges. Besides hockey the American sports market is superior to the Canadian one in every sense. Ohio and Michigan State Universities get over 100,000 people to their games and Vanier Cup in Canada is lucky to draw 20,000. So why even bother comparing how Americans support their developmental pro leagues, semi-pro leagues, and university sports to Canadians?

I'm not underestimating the CFL. CFL players get paid like and in many cases less than AHL and AAA baseball players. CFL has been used over time and to this day as a stepping stone for many players trying to reach the NFL and to be brutally honest the rest of the players in the CFL just wouldn't make it in the NFL. That is what makes comparing the CFL to the NFL more similar to comparing the Moose to what an NHL team would do in Winnipeg than comparing the CFL to the NFL on par.

[SHOFEAR]

This whole post is more of the same thing, comparing apples to oranges. Besides hockey the American sports market is superior to the Canadian one in every sense. Ohio and Michigan State Universities get over 100,000 people to their games and Vanier Cup in Canada is lucky to draw 20,000. So why even bother comparing how Americans support their developmental pro leagues, semi-pro leagues, and university sports to Canadians?

I'm not underestimating the CFL. CFL players get paid like and in many cases less than AHL and AAA baseball players. CFL has been used over time and to this day as a stepping stone for many players trying to reach the NFL and to be brutally honest the rest of the players in the CFL just wouldn't make it in the NFL. That is what makes comparing the CFL to the NFL more similar to comparing the Moose to what an NHL team would do in Winnipeg than comparing the CFL to the NFL on par.

And only a fraction of those players ever play in the NFL. Another small fraction plays in the CFL. The vast majority aren't talented enough to play a professional game at the CFL level...But they still draw massive crowds...Real football fans.

[Highinthesky]

And only a fraction of those players ever play in the NFL. Another small fraction plays in the CFL. The vast majority aren't talented enough to play a professional game at the CFL level...But they still draw massive crowds...Real football fans.

In an entirely different market and culture than Toronto or Canada so how does that have anything to do with support in Toronto?

This is like trying to take the average sale price of AAA office space in Vancouver to develop a listing in Edmonton and then wondering why the property doesn't sell. They are entirely different markets, they are not comparable.

[Acajack]

This whole post is more of the same thing, comparing apples to oranges. Besides hockey the American sports market is superior to the Canadian one in every sense. Ohio and Michigan State Universities get over 100,000 people to their games and Vanier Cup in Canada is lucky to draw 20,000. So why even bother comparing how Americans support their developmental pro leagues, semi-pro leagues, and university sports to Canadians?

I'm not underestimating the CFL. CFL players get paid like and in many cases less than AHL and AAA baseball players. CFL has been used over time and to this day as a stepping stone for many players trying to reach the NFL and to be brutally honest the rest of the players in the CFL just wouldn't make it in the NFL. That is what makes comparing the CFL to the NFL more similar to comparing the Moose to what an NHL team would do in Winnipeg than comparing the CFL to the NFL on par.

So I guess the conclusion is that, when compared to Americans, there are many more Canadians out there who think that the CFL and other sports leagues (read = sports leagues that have no American teams in them) are "beneath" them.

Note that although our focus here has been on Torontonians, these Canadians exist everywhere, and there are lots of people in places like Musquodoboit Harbour, Nova Scotia and Cold Lake, Alberta who also think the CFL is "beneath" them.

I always found it interesting how the fact that 20,000 people can show up at a high school football game in Texas doesn't prevent them from enjoying the Dallas Cowboys... One doesn't automatically exclude the other.

[SHOFEAR]

In an entirely different market and culture than Toronto or Canada so how does that have anything to do with support in Toronto?



Yeah, ones a football market, the other isn't.

[isaidso]

If anything, the lacklustre support for gridiron football exemplified by Toronto at all levels illustrates that a multibillion dollar football deal in Toronto is a gamble at best.

And really, what would be the big payoff for the NFL if it worked? TV ratings and merchandise sales for the NFL are already good in Canada, despite not having any NFL teams here.

Exactly, Toronto is not a football town. Toronto doesn’t support football and don’t deserve a storied team like the Argonauts.

[Highinthesky]

But what else does the NFL have to base it's decision on besides Argos attendance and the Bills in Toronto games ?
Not saying it''s an accurate reflection of how an actual Toronto team would draw in the NFL but I don't see what else an outsider has to go by in terms of actual data.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not a Toronto hater and I would love to see an NFL team in Toronto. They would no doubt become "Canada's Team" much like the Blue Jays and the Raptors. I know they would become the team I would cheer for.

My only concern would be the effect on the Argos and in turn the CFL as I am one of those who enjoy both brands of football. :)

You're right, there is no other football information avaiable on which to base a decision but you did mention two other alternative thats could be used to see how a team might do, the Blue Jays and Raptors. Both being the only teams in a professional league not in the United States and drawing from a fan base of not only the city they play in but an entire country.

[Acajack]

In an entirely different market and culture than Toronto or Canada so how does that have anything to do with support in Toronto?

This is like trying to take the average sale price of AAA office space in Vancouver to develop a listing in Edmonton and then wondering why the property doesn't sell. They are entirely different markets, they are not comparable.

Except that you ARE trying to play in the same league as them. If Canada had its own distinct sports leagues (or most Canadians were content with the CFL as THEIR football league and weren't obsessed with getting gratification they they are ready for the big time from "an entirely different market and culture" as you said so well), then nobody would be posing the question.

[shreddog]

... the Blue Jays and Raptors ... drawing from a fan base of not only the city they play in but an entire country.
Really????

While I haven't polled the entire country, I certainly have not seen rabid fan support for either the Jays or the Raptors outside of Southern Ontario. Certainly nothing that overshadowed other NBA/MBL teams.

I'd be interested in seeing retail and television stats to back that claim up.

[SHOFEAR]

Not to mention it would be political suicide for any federal money to go toward a new stadium.

People across the country could probably understand or quickly forget about the feds dishing out some coin for arenas or CFL stadiums...but a billion dollar NFL stadium...

[Highinthesky]

So I guess the conclusion is that, when compared to Americans, there are many more Canadians out there who think that the CFL and other sports leagues (read = sports leagues that have no American teams in them) are "beneath".

Note that although our focus here has been on Torontonians, these Canadians exist everywhere, and there are lots of people in places like Musquodoboit Harbour, Nova Scotia and Cold Lake, Alberta who also think the CFL is "beneath".

I always found it interesting how the fact that 20,000 people can show up at a high school football game in Texas doesn't prevent them from enjoying the Dallas Cowboys... One doesn't automatically exclude the other.

What is all this beneath talk about? Are you going to seriously try and say that the CFL is on par with the NFL? If you are then there is no point in continuing this discussion because its not going to based on anything substantial.

If you do agree that in terms of fielding talent the NFL wins hands down then you cannot in the next line argue that the CFL should used as a direct comparison to the NFL for support in Toronto and be taken seriously.

And in regards to all this other talk. Canada is not comparable sports market to U.S. so there is no point in saying the Americans support all levels of sports so Canadians do to. No is going to seriously argue that Toronto is not a hockey town yet the Marlies get very poor fan support.