[Dado]

Over in the Rapid Transit thread, Uhuniau put forward this post in response to the NCC's positions in respect of the LRT plans:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=5233204&postcount=3907
Come on and abolish the NC bloody C already.


So what do we think? Abolish it? Reform it? Leave it as is? Emasculate it down to little more than Parliament's property manager? Make the entire national capital region into its own quasi-province or territory and fold the NCC into that?


Any move to abolish it would have to consider what to do with the NCC's numerous assets, primarily lands. Some lands, such as Gatineau Park, could reasonably be passed over to Parks Canada. Conservation areas, like the Mer Bleue Conservation Area in the Greenbelt, could be handed over to the appropriate provincial conservation authority. Lands being used by other federal agencies would go to them or PWGSC, as the case may be. Leased properties like that which the airport sits on could be turned over to whomever is leasing it after some appropriate buy-out. Road corridors like Island Park Drive and the Ottawa River Parkway could be handed to the municipality. But after such lands have been dealt with, we're still left with a lot of land with no particularly obvious recipient, including most of the Greenbelt. I'm sure lots of residents would fear those lands going into municipal hands, and even more so into private hands.

We also have to consider the fact that right now, as annoying as the NCC is at times, they are at least just one federal agency. With a lot of land turned over to other federal agencies, coordination becomes a lot more problematic.

Another fly in the ointment is that any federal land is nominally subject to an Algonquin land claim, so the creation of an extensive urban reserve, with all the attendant issues that raises, couldn't be ruled out (technically that applies even with no change in the NCC, but the chance of that occurring is remote, whereas a change to the NCC would be quite a different matter).


Personally, I lean towards keeping the NCC and working towards the creation of a quasi-province in the NCR that would simply absorb the NCC. In the meantime, look into reforming it.

[eternallyme]

Scrap it in its current form.

Parks Canada should take over NCC parks, under a new classification of National Parkways for the parkways and Gatineau Park should become a full National Park of Canada. National museums, the Central Experimental Farm and other tourist attractions should also come under Parks Canada.

The Greenbelt should be strategically reviewed piece by piece to see what its natural value is. Core assets like Mer Bleue and Stony Swamp could become owned by Parks Canada or provincial conservation authorities and less valuable portions that are reasonably developable should be handed over to the City of Ottawa or private owners.

The Hurdman lands and other inside-the-Greenbelt lands that are not of natural value should be sold to private owners, cleaned up and developed. My idea for the Hurdman lands is an extreme-density development area.

The NCC parkways should also be strategically assessed. Who I would hand each one to:

Ottawa River Parkway, Rockcliffe Parkway, Experimental Farm Driveway, Colonel By Drive, Queen Elizabeth Drive and the Gatineau parkways: Parks Canada should operate them as National Parkways.

Aviation Parkway: Should be sold to the MTO as part of the Kettle Island Bridge freeway. If the bridge is not built and a tunnel under downtown is built, Parks Canada should retain it.

Island Park Drive: Should become a City of Ottawa street. It is not much different than any other collector/minor arterial road in the area and really is only under NCC ownership due to the connection to the Experimental Farm it provides.

[reidjr]

Over in the Rapid Transit thread, Uhuniau put forward this post in response to the NCC's positions in respect of the LRT plans:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=5233204&postcount=3907



So what do we think? Abolish it? Reform it? Leave it as is? Emasculate it down to little more than Parliament's property manager? Make the entire national capital region into its own quasi-province or territory and fold the NCC into that?


Any move to abolish it would have to consider what to do with the NCC's numerous assets, primarily lands. Some lands, such as Gatineau Park, could reasonably be passed over to Parks Canada. Conservation areas, like the Mer Bleue Conservation Area in the Greenbelt, could be handed over to the appropriate provincial conservation authority. Lands being used by other federal agencies would go to them or PWGSC, as the case may be. Leased properties like that which the airport sits on could be turned over to whomever is leasing it after some appropriate buy-out. Road corridors like Island Park Drive and the Ottawa River Parkway could be handed to the municipality. But after such lands have been dealt with, we're still left with a lot of land with no particularly obvious recipient, including most of the Greenbelt. I'm sure lots of residents would fear those lands going into municipal hands, and even more so into private hands.

We also have to consider the fact that right now, as annoying as the NCC is at times, they are at least just one federal agency. With a lot of land turned over to other federal agencies, coordination becomes a lot more problematic.

Another fly in the ointment is that any federal land is nominally subject to an Algonquin land claim, so the creation of an extensive urban reserve, with all the attendant issues that raises, couldn't be ruled out (technically that applies even with no change in the NCC, but the chance of that occurring is remote, whereas a change to the NCC would be quite a different matter).


Personally, I lean towards keeping the NCC and working towards the creation of a quasi-province in the NCR that would simply absorb the NCC. In the meantime, look into reforming it.

The ncc does a good job do you really want all that power they have going into the city council hands the city has enough issues with limited issues.I would love nothing more then to have a quasi-province where the ncc would be the key part and even have them or another agency run 90% of the ottawa and area from basic services such as garbage to parks etc even social services.

[Kitchissippi]

Many countries have capital commissions or agencies, especially federations. Washington DC has one that operates separately from the District of Columbia government, Canberra has one on top of the territorial governemment. While Ottawans only seem to look at the more visible side of the NCC, there are aspects such as location of foreign embassies, national monuments, management of official residences and other things specific to running a federal capital that are less obvious. These cannot be handed down to the municipal level, which are provincial entities.

I'm not sure why people think that dealing with Parks Canada or Public works directly would be more advantageous or less bureaucratic than the NCC. When the feds give money to the NCC, it is spent entirely on the capital area. Money given to Parks Canada gets spread out over the entire country and individual parks have to vie for money with another level of bureaucracy. Complaining about the NCC is like bitching about getting gravy on the side with your meat.

[lrt's friend]

The Airport Parkway gives you a little taste of what happens when the NCC transfers reponsibility to the municipality. What was a somewhat scenic and uncongested roadway with manicured lawns has turned into an overused road (because of municipally added road connections) and a totally abandoned and unmaintained landscape. The consequence is that Bronson Avenue has been turned into King Edward Avenue No. 2. A semi-expressway.

I would not trust the city with any NCC lands. Frankly, I wouldn't trust the city building LRT along the Ottawa River Parkway. It is almost a guarantee that it would soon be an eyesore.

[McC]

Scrap it in its current form.

Parks Canada should take over NCC parks, under a new classification of National Parkways for the parkways and Gatineau Park should become a full National Park of Canada. National museums, the Central Experimental Farm and other tourist attractions should also come under Parks Canada.


The Museums are Crown Corporations, and the Experimental Farm is Agriculture and Agri-food Canada, not the NCC

[Uhuniau]

Many countries have capital commissions or agencies, especially federations. Washington DC has one that operates separately from the District of Columbia government, Canberra has one on top of the territorial governemment.

I wouldn't look to DC or Canberra as much in the way of models to emulate.

While Ottawans only seem to look at the more visible side of the NCC, there are aspects such as location of foreign embassies, national monuments, management of official residences and other things specific to running a federal capital that are less obvious. These cannot be handed down to the municipal level, which are provincial entities.

Why not? I can't see any reason why not.

Complaining about the NCC is like bitching about getting gravy on the side with your meat.

No, complaining about the NCC is like bitching about getting a mixture of liquid turd and glass on the side with your meat.

[Uhuniau]

The Airport Parkway gives you a little taste of what happens when the NCC transfers reponsibility to the municipality. What was a somewhat scenic and uncongested roadway with manicured lawns

There you go, identifying an NCC problem right off the bat: the fixation with "scenic" and "uncongested" and "manicured lawns" in conjunction with "roadways". Classic 1930s Radiant Garden City Beautiful thinking that has gone a long way towards ruining Ottawa.

has turned into an overused road (because of municipally added road connections) and a totally abandoned and unmaintained landscape. The consequence is that Bronson Avenue has been turned into King Edward Avenue No. 2. A semi-expressway.

That happened loooooong ago, even before any changes in administration or added connections.

I still don't know why we needed to drive through trees to the airport, anyway. Anyone?

[McC]

Why not? I can't see any reason why not.

suggest you try looking a little harder, 150 years of constitutional practice is one easily visible reason.

[Kitchissippi]

I wouldn't look to DC or Canberra as much in the way of models to emulate.

Why not? I can't see any reason why not.

No, complaining about the NCC is like bitching about getting a mixture of liquid turd and glass on the side with your meat.


I didn't say emulate, those capital commissions are there out of some necessity because they are federal capitals and have to deal with the hierarchial structure of government. You can't have lower levels dictating to higher levels of authority.

You'd make a terrible plumber without awareness of backflow. No wonder you are getting a mixture of liquid turd and glass on the side with your meat.

[lrt's friend]

There you go, identifying an NCC problem right off the bat: the fixation with "scenic" and "uncongested" and "manicured lawns" in conjunction with "roadways". Classic 1930s Radiant Garden City Beautiful thinking that has gone a long way towards ruining Ottawa.



That happened loooooong ago, even before any changes in administration or added connections.

I still don't know why we needed to drive through trees to the airport, anyway. Anyone?

Ruining Ottawa? That is pretty extreme. We have to understand that the current designs for parkways etc. did arise in the 1930s and 1940s and in some cases even earlier. It was and I would add is still better than was there before. The NCC and its predecessors opened up water side land for public access. Previously these areas were blighted with industry, rail yards and in some cases shacks. We may want something different today but these things evolved when parkways were considered the best choice and it is difficult to change this now. In any event, in many cases, it is still the best choice. Lining the Ottawa River shoreline with condos is not necessarily desireable.

Regarding the Airport Parkway, it is a whole lot better than what preceded it. The old airport access road was a disgrace to the city.

You are wrong about the connection to the airport parkway. One of the first things the city did after taking over the Airport Parkway was to build the access ramps at Hunt Club Road. This was not done by the NCC. This is the main source of congestion on the Airport Parkway.

[Luker]

yea they piggy back'd on the feds investment for sure, at this point, for what its worth.. I'd just like to see Bronson fixed, and widened, however possible, it need left turning lanes asap... When the project comes up in the next few years the city will have to certainly twin the airport parkway due to traffic and growth in the south - especially south riverside (+++ the new strandherd-armstrong bridge.. :shrug:

[lrt's friend]

yea they piggy back'd on the feds investment for sure, at this point, for what its worth.. I'd just like to see Bronson fixed, and widened, however possible, it need left turning lanes asap... When the project comes up in the next few years the city will have to certainly twin the airport parkway due to traffic and growth in the south - especially south riverside (+++ the new strandherd-armstrong bridge.. :shrug:

That is exactly what is going to happen when the Strandherd-Armstrong Bridge opens. Traffic from Barrhaven is going to flood to the east side of the river. It is inevitable. Any gains from widening Limebank and Riverside are going to be lost almost overnight.

This is the sad part of losing LRT on this corridor. That was going to keep traffic down to a manageable level. Basically, we will have to widen every north-south road.

[kevinbottawa]

I think the NCC is too powerful as is. Their mandate seems to be too broad to do any one thing well.

I'm not sure how constitutional it is, but I would love to see another tier of government created, a federal regional municipality for the capital region (not a territory or a province), allowing member municipalities to remain a part of their current provinces but giving them the authority to form a regional council. I would keep the NCC, a scaled down version of its current self, but I would transfer some of their responsibilities to the regional council. The regional council could advocate for local interests in the region and the NCC could advocate for national interests in the region. Right now it seems federal/national interests come before local interests in the capital region.

[reidjr]

I think the NCC is too powerful as is. Their mandate seems to be too broad to do any one thing well.

I'm not sure how constitutional it is, but I would love to see another tier of government created, a federal regional municipality for the capital region (not a territory or a province), allowing member municipalities to remain a part of their current provinces but giving them the authority to form a regional council. I would keep the NCC, a scaled down version of its current self, but I would transfer some of their responsibilities to the regional council. The regional council could advocate for local interests in the region and the NCC could advocate for national interests in the region. Right now it seems federal/national interests come before local interests in the capital region.

The ncc is funded by the feds so to a degree it should focus on national interests and really that is how it should be you can't say it should only matter what the locals want.As for another agency sure that is something that may work it could replace city council you could not have the ncc/fed regional municipality/city council it just would not work.

[Dado]

There you go, identifying an NCC problem right off the bat: the fixation with "scenic" and "uncongested" and "manicured lawns" in conjunction with "roadways". Classic 1930s Radiant Garden City Beautiful thinking that has gone a long way towards ruining Ottawa.

There's not a lot of City Beautiful in the planning of Ottawa. The one City Beautiful plan we did have, the Holt Report, effectively went nowhere. About the only City Beautiful-type concept that went anywhere was the War Memorial with its location at the top of Elgin, with the square itself being one of the nicest places to look at Parliament from. Frankly, we could have done with more City Beautiful.

There's a little more Garden City in the guise of the Greenbelt and in the numerous parkways, but even there the Garden City concept of having much more self-sufficient satellite cities never really went anywhere, and the "satellite cities", such as they are, aren't even organized on Garden City lines.

As for Radiant City... the main expressions of that seem to be in the various federal government office parks (Tunney's Pasture, Confederation Heights, Hull). There's not a lot otherwise. There's also some of Le Corbusier's love of razing things (LeBreton, Hull).

Even the Gréber Plan's influence is overstated. Very little of it came to anything other than the railway relocations and the Greenbelt (and never did we get the combined rail and road bridge over at Lower Duck Island). The road network of the Gréber Plan was a far more "Parisian" network with Parisian-like streets and boulevards, but what we ended up with were American freeways and expressways in their place. The neighbourhoods that were built post-war were quite different than those envisaged by the Gréber Plan.

Basically the modernists took the Gréber Plan's freed-up railway corridors from the railway relocation to build freeways and expressways, and the rest of it was cast aside. Then the townships and the developers went wild.




Regarding the Airport Parkway, it is a whole lot better than what preceded it. The old airport access road was a disgrace to the city.

You are wrong about the connection to the airport parkway. One of the first things the city did after taking over the Airport Parkway was to build the access ramps at Hunt Club Road. This was not done by the NCC. This is the main source of congestion on the Airport Parkway.

I agree completely. Those north-side access ramps at Hunt Club handle most of the traffic on the Airport Parkway south of Brookfield Rd.

It's also quite likely in the event of widening the Airport Parkway that it'll only be widened as far as Hunt Club.


I didn't say emulate, those capital commissions are there out of some necessity because they are federal capitals and have to deal with the hierarchial structure of government. You can't have lower levels dictating to higher levels of authority.

But that's not really an issue in Canberra or DC. In both cases, the territory of the capital (a territory in Australia, a district in the US) is under federal jurisdiction (i.e. just like the three territories in Canada) without any other "sovereign" levels of government in the way. If the local municipal government proves problematic, it can theoretically be legislated out of the way. Any commissions they have are merely there to carry out the planning itself.

In unitary or centralized states, again the local government is generally not an insurmountable obstacle for the central government.

I don't think there is another country where the federal capital can be effectively held hostage by a nominally lower level of government. The federal government, after all, has no zoning power so the only "planning" powers it has are related to its possession of land (past and present), the exercise of the power of expropriation, the threat thereof, and moral suasion (which is basically a polite way of being threatened, or blackmailed, as the case may be).


You'd make a terrible plumber without awareness of backflow. No wonder you are getting a mixture of liquid turd and glass on the side with your meat.

:D

[Dado]

I think the NCC is too powerful as is. Their mandate seems to be too broad to do any one thing well.

As I wrote previously, the NCC's powers are actually quite limited. The only power they effectively have comes through the power to expropriate. They have 'power' as a landowner that can't themselves be expropriated. In other words, they have a fair amount of power to obstruct others but not a lot of power to do anything much themselves without spending vast sums in the process.


I'm not sure how constitutional it is, but I would love to see another tier of government created, a federal regional municipality for the capital region (not a territory or a province), allowing member municipalities to remain a part of their current provinces but giving them the authority to form a regional council. I would keep the NCC, a scaled down version of its current self, but I would transfer some of their responsibilities to the regional council.

Such a body would basically have to be created by some kind of "treaty" between Ontario, Quebec and the federal government so as to delegate the necessary powers from the provinces to the federal municipality.

An interesting possibility, at least from the Ontario side, would be to empower the NCC or some other similar federal body under Ontario's Places to Grow Act. That would give the NCC real planning power over the City of Ottawa. I would guess that similar powers could be delegated by Quebec, but maybe not as cleanly as with the Places to Grow Act (i.e. it would require dedicated legislation). This possibility is basically a "light" version of a full-fledged federal municipality.


The regional council could advocate for local interests in the region and the NCC could advocate for national interests in the region. Right now it seems federal/national interests come before local interests in the capital region.
And the local governments put local interests before those of being the capital region. The ongoing farce that is interprovincial transit is a pretty good example of this.

[Capital Shaun]

According to the federal budget announced today, the NCC will no longer be resposible for festivals such as Winterlude, Tulip Festival, Canada Day, etc... Those responsibilities will be passed on to Heritage Canada.

[rocketphish]

According to the federal budget announced today, the NCC will no longer be resposible for festivals such as Winterlude, Tulip Festival, Canada Day, etc... Those responsibilities will be passed on to Heritage Canada.

And ironically, festivals are one of the only things the NCC did well. Let's hope this is the first step in the dismantling of this obstinate and unhelpful organization.

[eternallyme]

This is hopefully a step towards abolishing the pathetic NCC, while keeping its assets under Heritage Canada (i.e. parks, parkways, museums) and getting it out of the development business.

[Capital Shaun]

This is hopefully a step towards abolishing the pathetic NCC, while keeping its assets under Heritage Canada (i.e. parks, parkways, museums) and getting it out of the development business.

Everything the NCC does can probably be transferred to Parks Canada, Heritage Canada and/or PWGSC (Real Property Branch).

[Capital Shaun]

Baird talks about the NCC and admits the condos built at Lebreton Flats "are not the most inspiring".
Link: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Better+LeBreton+Flats+downtown+improvements+Baird+says/8140439/story.html

[Dado]

This is hopefully a step towards abolishing the pathetic NCC, while keeping its assets under Heritage Canada (i.e. parks, parkways, museums) and getting it out of the development business.

None of the assets are being transferred to Heritage Canada, or anywhere else. It's a bureaucratic transfer. It might even cut down on the paperwork.

The museums aren't under NCC control anyway; the NCC has a hand in their planning and design, but not beyond that.

The Canal is already Parks Canada.


I don't see any reason to read anything else into this other than what Baird is claiming.

Perhaps with planning festivals out of its purview, the NCC can focus on things actually in its mandate.


And if the City of Ottawa would show some initiative and start seeking some autonomy and relief from the Province of Ontario, perhaps we would be in a better position to start demanding some changes from the NCC. But so long as we keep acting provincially and Provincially, there's no reason for anyone at the federal level to take us seriously because we do not take our position as the national capital seriously.

[Kitchissippi]

This is hopefully a step towards abolishing the pathetic NCC, while keeping its assets under Heritage Canada (i.e. parks, parkways, museums) and getting it out of the development business.

Could you name one single example of something Heritage Canada has achieved lately that proves that they would do a better job? Anyone who thinks Parks Canada is doing great stuff today does not live in one of those parks.

The NCC got into events and interpretive programs back in the 1970s because public spaces and buildings are nothing but "containers" for activities, and it is often difficult to design successful containers without thinking of the contents first. This is why we ended up with a lot of empty windswept concrete plazas in the 1950s and '60s, because misguided architects and planners thought they were "cool" and didn't have to think of what people were actually supposed to do in them. On the flip side, it is difficult to really succeed in organizing events and activities without direct input in spatial planning. So nice looking book with a crappy story, or great story in a crappy book, take your pick.

Heritage Canada is going to be such a bloated department, planning national occasions from Vancouver to St John's along with doing local things in the capital. One or the other is going to suffer. They'll end up having to create a mini NCC inside HC and we'll end up with the same thing, except it will be fully controlled by the government of the day instead of being tempered by the power of Parliament.

Government is run by people just like you and me, and if any of our public institutions have become "pathetic" (the NCC has done may great things in the past), it is likely the fault of the people running it, not the institution itself. The solution lies in putting competent people in charge. I say let's start with Harper.

[Haussmanniste]

The Airport Parkway gives you a little taste of what happens when the NCC transfers reponsibility to the municipality. What was a somewhat scenic and uncongested roadway with manicured lawns has turned into an overused road (because of municipally added road connections) and a totally abandoned and unmaintained landscape. The consequence is that Bronson Avenue has been turned into King Edward Avenue No. 2. A semi-expressway.

I would not trust the city with any NCC lands. Frankly, I wouldn't trust the city building LRT along the Ottawa River Parkway. It is almost a guarantee that it would soon be an eyesore.

Can't help but agree with you. The City of Ottawa has a knack for ruining nice lands. They don't have the funding to continue maintaining them the way the NCC can. The city is not a rich entity, it is run by the want of revenue, votes and development. Councillors require votes so they vote in favour of development to keep the developers happy (they pay large sums of money to election campaigns) and will allow the adding of road connections to win a few more votes to the nearby population that will use them. Then, because of new developments, they can have a bit more cash to work with (especially if it's in the core. i.e. previously unused lands).

[S-Man]

Yes, by all means hand transit over to the NCC. Brilliant idea. Then, when a new bus needs purchasing or a bus route needs to be changed to suit riders (You won't get LRT under the NCC - it doesn't burn dino juice the way they like), they can study the situation for 7 to 20 years. Because they have money, as you said, and all the time in the world....

Yes, with the track record they have in this city, who wouldn't want the NCC to plan and organize their transportation future? I have a lot of beefs with the city, but switching to the NCC would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[Dado]

Yes, by all means hand transit over to the NCC. Brilliant idea. Then, when a new bus needs purchasing or a bus route needs to be changed to suit riders (You won't get LRT under the NCC - it doesn't burn dino juice the way they like), they can study the situation for 7 to 20 years. Because they have money, as you said, and all the time in the world....

It was the RMOC that created the Transitway concept in the 1970s while the NCC of the same era proposed a regional rail system.

Until the 2008 TMP, the City was still completely obsessed with the Transitway and its dino juice buses - that's how we got the 2003 TMP that envisaged the continued running of buses on Albert and Slater for at least another two decades. Light rail was to be a side show and the project they did plan and nearly executed was so badly planned that it likely would have killed off further light rail expansions for another generation.

The City has historically been no friend of light rail and even today its dogmatic insistence on Transitwayesque design standards is making light rail unnecessarily expensive.


Yes, with the track record they have in this city, who wouldn't want the NCC to plan and organize their transportation future? I have a lot of beefs with the city, but switching to the NCC would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Frankly neither has got much of a record to be proud of. And the governance structure around here just allows each to fob things off and blame the other (King Edward, anyone?). The City does it, Gatineau does it and so does the NCC. But if all of them, plus the provincial transport ministries, were amalgamated into one regional transportation commission such a commission would be forced by necessity to stop engaging in this petty internecine warfare (or at least to internalize it). The NCC wouldn't be able to "protect" its lands from use while the City wouldn't be able to lazily propose to use NCC lands rather than make hard choices (when was the full Parkway LRT route ever a good idea?), including securing corridors in a timely fashion and proposing the use and taking of MTO lands.

[kevinbottawa]

What's up with all the vacant NCC retail spaces? The optometrist has been gone from the Chambers building for over a year. Now the Randstad employment agency just left Chambers. Both the Stacaro furniture store and the Soma gym closed at 700 Sussex in recent months and the Nicholas Hoare space has been empty for over a year. Something's wrong.

[Haussmanniste]

What's up with all the vacant NCC retail spaces? The optometrist has been gone from the Chambers building for over a year. Now the Randstad employment agency just left Chambers. Both the Stacaro furniture store and the Soma gym closed at 700 Sussex in recent months and the Nicholas Hoare space has been empty for over a year. Something's wrong.

The Laurier Optical spot has been empty for a while but from a business point of view, I can't see it being good location. There isn't much traffic for people looking for glasses there. It would seem to me to be a spot for a tourist-driven business.

The Soma gym closed because they went bankrupt. The former Nicholas Hoare location is actually undergoing some sort of preparation now for what I assume is a new store. Contractors are hard at work.

[Kitchissippi]

I've always thought that the ground floor of the Chambers building would be great for — I'm ducking in expectation of an onslaught of rotten tomatoes — a gussied-up Tim Hortons. There was a short-lived Cafe Supreme there when the reno'd building first opened, but I think "Canada's coffee shop" would do a better job of drawing people and livening up that space facing the War Memorial with some outdoor seating. Something pedestrian and unpretentious would be nice there for a change.

[McC]

I was going to say a nice 2-story bistro fronting on to the square (basically wrapping around from Darcy's); but your Flagship Timmies idea is not terrible. It would probably be stupidly popular, and I can see millions of (tasteless) pictures being taken in front of the Cenotaph and Tomb of the Unknown Soldier with patriotic coffee cups in hand, rims proudly rrrrrrrolled up.

[Capital Shaun]

I've always thought that the ground floor of the Chambers building would be great for — I'm ducking in expectation of an onslaught of rotten tomatoes — a gussied-up Tim Hortons. There was a short-lived Cafe Supreme there when the reno'd building first opened, but I think "Canada's coffee shop" would do a better job of drawing people and livening up that space facing the War Memorial with some outdoor seating. Something pedestrian and unpretentious would be nice there for a change.

A Timmies (or something similar) isn't that crazy of an idea.

[Capital Shaun]

I was going to say a nice 2-story bistro fronting on to the square (basically wrapping around from Darcy's); but your Flagship Timmies idea is not terrible. It would probably be stupidly popular, and I can see millions of (tasteless) pictures being taken in front of the Cenotaph and Tomb of the Unknown Soldier with patriotic coffee cups in hand, rims proudly rrrrrrrolled up.

I agree, a nice bistro (or even a pub) would be better then a Timmies but either options would bring more foot traffic than an eye clinic ever could.

[Haussmanniste]

I agree, a nice bistro (or even a pub) would be better then a Timmies but either options would bring more foot traffic than an eye clinic ever could.

The bistro idea isn't crazy at all. Wasn't there a restaurant there before the renovations happened? Another possibility would be a Bridgehead (change of location or Starbucks). The problem with a coffee shop is that given the fact that the main radius around the location is an open plaza, it's not as appealing as a spot with high-rises completely surrounding it. Although, Tim's could draw people there. The closest one, if I'm not mistaken is at Metcalfe and Slater so they could be missing out on business.

[kevinbottawa]

The Soma gym closed because they went bankrupt.

I wonder if they went bankrupt because the rent was too high. That was Nicholas Hoare's complaint.

[kevinbottawa]

Now that both the optometrist and Randstad are gone, that space in Chambers would make a great TV studio. It would provide some great shots of Confederation Square, the Chateau Laurier, and the Government Conference Centre. An even better idea would be for the NCC to use it as an Infocentre since they already own it and the corner unit has been on the market for a while. There's huge tourist traffic in that area. More than the World Exchange Plaza.

[J.OT13]

I love the Bistro idea and, imo, Timies seem a little cheap for such an important location.

As for the tourist info kiosk, it would be a great spot (as long as it doesn't take up the whole space). The WEP is a terrible location. Who the hell would know where it is and who the hell would visit Ottawa's CBD? I can pretty much guarantee that the number of tourists actually visiting the Info Centre as gone down significantly.

[Kitchissippi]

I love the Bistro idea and, imo, Timies seem a little cheap for such an important location.

Tim Hortons is probably more congruous with the concept of the war memorial than any chichi bistro. It was even the centre of social life in the Kandahar base (http://www.ctvnews.ca/afghan-tim-hortons-closure-end-of-an-era-1.732570). In any Canadian town, veterans and soldiers are more likely to congregate at Legion Halls and Tim Hortons, not in fancy cafes.

[McC]

exactly.

[J.OT13]

Tim Hortons is probably more congruous with the concept of the war memorial than any chichi bistro. It was even the centre of social life in the Kandahar base (http://www.ctvnews.ca/afghan-tim-hortons-closure-end-of-an-era-1.732570). In any Canadian town, veterans and soldiers are more likely to congregate at Legion Halls and Tim Hortons, not in fancy cafes.

I'm not talking about the war memorial per say, I'm talking about the corner of Elgin and Queen as a unique signature location in Ottawa. We shouldn't be opening one of the 4 big chain coffee shops that we see at every other corner (Tim Hortons, Starbucks, Bridgehead, Second Cup), Irish pub or pharmacy for that matter (Shoppers).

It should be something original to Ottawa, a one of a kind restaurant.

[gjhall]

Now that both the optometrist and Randstad are gone, that space in Chambers would make a great TV studio. It would provide some great shots of Confederation Square, the Chateau Laurier, and the Government Conference Centre. An even better idea would be for the NCC to use it as an Infocentre since they already own it and the corner unit has been on the market for a while. There's huge tourist traffic in that area. More than the World Exchange Plaza.

I fully agree. Bloomberg is already in the building somewhere, so they wouldn't be alone. Perhaps an Ottawa Citizen News Cafe like in Winnipeg?

[gjhall]

I was going to say a nice 2-story bistro fronting on to the square (basically wrapping around from Darcy's); but your Flagship Timmies idea is not terrible. It would probably be stupidly popular, and I can see millions of (tasteless) pictures being taken in front of the Cenotaph and Tomb of the Unknown Soldier with patriotic coffee cups in hand, rims proudly rrrrrrrolled up.

I read in an interview somewhere that Beckta looked at the site before setting on Richmond/Churchill for his third spot (Gezellig).

[Schattenjager]

Watson calls for NCC reforms
Published on May 16, 2013
Mark Brownlee

Fed up over his inability to reach a compromise with the National Capital Commission on several key municipal files, Mayor Jim Watson signalled he’ll be suggesting changes to how the federal Crown corporation goes about its business.

Until now, Mr. Watson has shown a willingness to find middle ground between the NCC and the City of Ottawa for projects on which the two bodies can’t immediately agree.

But in calling for fundamental changes to the way the NCC works, those days appear to have come to an end.

“Over the course of the next couple of months I’m going to be speaking about how I think we can reform the NCC to make sure that it is more of a help than a hindrance,” said Mr. Watson, who made the comments to tourism officials at an event organized by the Ottawa Gatineau Hotel Association.

He referred to the NCC as “another level of government that no other city in the country has to deal with.”

Mr. Watson, without going into specifics about what he wants changed, singled out a number of policy areas in which the NCC has created a “problem” for the city’s attempts to attract visitors.

These include the NCC’s concerns about the Ottawa Convention Centre’s desire to get an art wall on its exterior and its decision to shut down a tourism office across from Parliament Hill.

A particular source of frustration appears to involve the city’s plan to extend its light-rail transit project to the west. The city is currently working on a route that would take the project farther west of the current construction route, which only goes as far as Tunney’s Pasture.

City staff announced last year their preferred option would be to run the route for long stretches on land the NCC controls along the John A. Macdonald Parkway. However the NCC expressed an unwillingness to give up the land, citing concerns that LRT would limit access to the waterfront.

The city initially showed a willingness to work with the NCC’s concerns by returning to the drawing board. It released a similar version of the route that would take the route underground for stretches at a time.

The NCC again said that option was unacceptable, though, because it still used the Parkway. That apparently lead Mr. Watson to the conclusion that the two bodies weren’t going to be able to reach a compromise without major changes to the Crown corporation’s mandate.

“When we’re trying to get light rail even farther west and take one and a half acres of scrub land and they’re saying ‘sorry you can’t do that, try another option that’s going to cost you another $600 million,’ that's a problem,” said Mr. Watson.

His speech ended too late for OBJ to get comment from the NCC.

Other complaints involved matters for which the federal government, rather than the NCC, were responsible.

He expressed disappointment that the Government Conference Centre, a former train station the federal department Public Works maintains just east of Parliament Hill, is open only to government meetings rather than the public.
http://www.obj.ca/Local/City-Hall/2013-05-16/article-3249641/Watson-calls-for-NCC-reforms/1

[Postmaster]

I have to say the mayor is doing his part trying to drive the change this city needs.

[NOWINYOW]

I'm not a supporter of the Conservatives, nor am I a Liberal or NDP supporter. I will say though, if radical reductions to the relevancy of the NCC are to happen, the current Federal Gov't is the one that could and would make it happen. NOW is the time to petition the Feds to disband or drastically reduce the voice and governance of the NCC.

All good things must come to an end. If the NCC was ever any good, now is the time to call an end to the "good times". Local festivals, public transit routes and city growth should be administered by elected officials, not a group of un-elected patronage appointees.

[J.OT13]

I'm not a supporter of the Conservatives, nor am I a Liberal or NDP supporter. I will say though, if radical reductions to the relevancy of the NCC are to happen, the current Federal Gov't is the one that could and would make it happen. NOW is the time to petition the Feds to disband or drastically reduce the voice and governance of the NCC.

All good things must come to an end. If the NCC was ever any good, now is the time to call an end to the "good times". Local festivals, public transit routes and city growth should be administered by elected officials, not a group of un-elected patronage appointees.

So if the NCC disbands, all of its assets would (or should) go to the cities. Imagine what the city could do with all that land, i.e. sell off the swaths of Greenbelt and parts of the shoreline, use the money to expand the OLRT.

As for the Gatineau Park; please turn it into a National Park and stop building highways thru it.

[Capital Shaun]

So if the NCC disbands, all of its assets would (or should) go to the cities. Imagine what the city could do with all that land, i.e. sell off the swaths of Greenbelt and parts of the shoreline, use the money to expand the OLRT.

Good point. I doubt the government would hand over all of the NCC land outright to the city. Some parts will probably never be developed and should be shifted over to Parks Canada.

There's big parts of the Greenbelt that are mostly unused fields. Developing parts of the Greenbelt would certainly prevent further outward expansion of the suburbs for a significant time.

As for the Gatineau Park; please turn it into a National Park and stop building highways thru it.

Agreed!

[NOWINYOW]

So if the NCC disbands, all of its assets would (or should) go to the cities. Imagine what the city could do with all that land, i.e. sell off the swaths of Greenbelt and parts of the shoreline, use the money to expand the OLRT.


The Feds could still own much of the land. Other parts become the jurisdiction of ELECTED officials.

There are cities all around the world that manage their natural resources quite well without a nanny level of Gov't.

[Dado]

I support the use of the former CPR corridor running along the Parkway for LRT, but clearly the City's communications/consultations with the NCC are out to lunch.

It's one thing to have a philosophical issue with the NCC or how it conducts itself, but to get angry with the NCC because of your own failings to deal with it in a proper manner is absurd. A casus belli this is not.

And besides, suppose it wasn't the NCC that owned the Parkway land but rather the Province through a Provincial Park or a Conservation Authority (it's in the flood plain, after all...). Or even Parks Canada for that matter. Since it's a former railway corridor, it could even be in the hands of a linear utility like a railway, hydro company or pipeline and would similarly be out of expropriative reach of the City. The point being that the same issue would exist for the City in all those circumstances, and the City's same failings would show themselves up then as well.


As for the other issues listed, the Convention Centre art wall and the tourism office, what of them? You can't just put up huge lit signs near the MTO's highways either... and we don't see Jim out there taking on the MTO to have its powers curtailed (which might actually be a useful fight). As for the tourism office, is something stopping the City from setting one up? Since when is it up the feds to promote tourism in Ottawa. Sure, it's in their interest in some regard to do so, but it's not exactly up to them to do it, either.

If Mayor Watson wants to signal that the City of Ottawa should get more respect from the feds, perhaps he should start by trying to deprovincialize the City through such things as getting rid of the OMB's role. After all, it's rather absurd to be complaining about the relatively minor annoyances the NCC sends our way when the OMB's very existence routinely distorts decisions of the City.

[Capital Shaun]

I support the use of the former CPR corridor running along the Parkway for LRT, but clearly the City's communications/consultations with the NCC are out to lunch.

It's one thing to have a philosophical issue with the NCC or how it conducts itself, but to get angry with the NCC because of your own failings to deal with it in a proper manner is absurd. A casus belli this is not.

And besides, suppose it wasn't the NCC that owned the Parkway land but rather the Province through a Provincial Park or a Conservation Authority (it's in the flood plain, after all...). Or even Parks Canada for that matter. Since it's a former railway corridor, it could even be in the hands of a linear utility like a railway, hydro company or pipeline and would similarly be out of expropriative reach of the City. The point being that the same issue would exist for the City in all those circumstances, and the City's same failings would show themselves up then as well.


As for the other issues listed, the Convention Centre art wall and the tourism office, what of them? You can't just put up huge lit signs near the MTO's highways either... and we don't see Jim out there taking on the MTO to have its powers curtailed (which might actually be a useful fight). As for the tourism office, is something stopping the City from setting one up? Since when is it up the feds to promote tourism in Ottawa. Sure, it's in their interest in some regard to do so, but it's not exactly up to them to do it, either.

If Mayor Watson wants to signal that the City of Ottawa should get more respect from the feds, perhaps he should start by trying to deprovincialize the City through such things as getting rid of the OMB's role. After all, it's rather absurd to be complaining about the relatively minor annoyances the NCC sends our way when the OMB's very existence routinely distorts decisions of the City.

Very good points.