[The_Architect]

Toronto seizes second spot in annual ranking of cities.
ADRIAN MORROW
Globe and Mail Update
Published Friday, May. 06, 2011 6:58PM EDT
Last updated Friday, May. 06, 2011 9:34PM EDT


Toronto has grabbed the second spot in one of the many annual rankings of cities, beating out the likes of London, Tokyo, Hong Kong and Paris.

And that's not the only surprise on PricewaterhouseCooper's Cities of Opportunity list, released this week.

Three other cities in the top five – San Francisco, Stockholm and Sydney – are often considered secondary world cities. In fact, the only traditional heavyweight among them is New York, which narrowly grabbed the top spot.

Unlike other reports that place great value on a city's size and the breadth of international economic influence, the PWC ranking gives equal weight to other factors, including livability, research and development, and education.

...

The greatest strength for the smaller cities, Toronto included, is in the field of innovation, where the city outshines New York.

The list, which is being published for the fourth time, ranks 26 different cities considered major business and financial hubs.

...
Full article here. (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/toronto-seizes-second-spot-in-annual-ranking-of-cities/article2013446/?utm_medium=Feeds%3A%20RSS%2FAtom&utm_source=Toron%20%20to&utm_content=2013446)

Not too shabby! Toronto keeps climbing among different city rankings in the world.. It's really making a name for itself, and hopefully will become one of the more well-known global cities with the other heavyweights..

:)

[Coldrsx]

Toronto is really kicking some arse in how livable it is and how eclectic of a city it has become.

Love that place

[BretttheRiderFan]

This shouldn't be in the Canada thread ;)

[The_Architect]

What thread do you recommend? The non existent Toronto thread?

[kwoldtimer]

The "non existent Toronto thread". Has kind of an appealing sound to it, doesn't it. :D

[Architype]

What exactly are they being ranked on?

[BretttheRiderFan]

What thread do you recommend? The non existent Toronto thread?

Let's see.....well.......there's an Ontario forum :shrug:

[Bdog]

This shouldn't be in the Canada thread ;)

This coming from a guy who started a thread called "How would Vancouver deal with an 8.9 Earthquake?" lol ;)

[The_Architect]

What exactly are they being ranked on?

Excerpt from the article:

Unlike other reports that place great value on a city's size and the breadth of international economic influence, the PWC ranking gives equal weight to other factors, including livability, research and development, and education.

Just some of them.

[The_Architect]

Let's see.....well.......there's an Ontario forum :shrug:

Any other city and this would be perfectly fine and acceptable on the Canada forum. Just discuss the article and leave the "threadworthy" decision up to the mods.

[Waterlooson]

This was a very detailed study... I wouldn't write it off, even though some of the results are "surprising". You can download the study here: http://www.pwc.com/us/en/cities-of-opportunity/2011/pdfdownload.jhtml

Toronto is becoming very important when it comes to "economic clout".

[BretttheRiderFan]

This coming from a guy who started a thread called "How would Vancouver deal with an 8.9 Earthquake?" lol ;)

I've been found out....:hell:

[caltrane74]

I'll never understand why's Sydney ranks so high in these listings. It's second city (Melborne) is almost the same size and perhaps more important.

[habfanman]

Cool! I'm going to move back now lol! Berlin, Hamburg and Amsterdam make Toronto look like a steaming heap of developing world shite.

[BretttheRiderFan]

Cool! I'm going to move back now lol! Berlin, Hamburg and Amsterdam make Toronto look like a steaming heap of developing world shite.

99% of your posts are a load of shite

[Ramako]

Cool! I'm going to move back now lol! Berlin, Hamburg and Amsterdam make Toronto look like a steaming heap of developing world shite.

But tell us - how you do you really feel?

[The_Architect]

Cool! I'm going to move back now lol! Berlin, Hamburg and Amsterdam make Toronto look like a steaming heap of developing world shite.

Apparently not. ;)

Keep trolling, much smarter and more respectable people disagree with you.

[caltrane74]

Cool! I'm going to move back now lol! Berlin, Hamburg and Amsterdam make Toronto look like a steaming heap of developing world shite.

And to think Toronto wouldn't be what it is today if Montreal hadn't self distructed 40 years ago.

[Ramako]

And to think Toronto wouldn't be what it is today if Montreal hadn't self distructed 40 years ago.

Speaking of which I notice that Montreal isn't even listed in the report. Not even worth consideration. Interesting that...

;)

On a serious note, it is worth reviewing the actual report. It's pretty comprehensive. If only we had a decent transit system, we'd have topped the list.

[Ramako]

Who knows... maybe PwC is simply trying to stir up some goodwill in Toronto before opening their newly-built Canadian headquarters at 18 York Street. Yes, I think I see their grand plan now...

[MonkeyRonin]

Berlin, Hamburg and Amsterdam make Toronto look like a steaming heap of developing world shite.


I don't really resent the developing world comparison. In a lot of ways, Toronto does have more in common with the likes of Mexico City or Shanghai than it does Amsterdam or Berlin - its an emerging city as opposed to one thats come onto the world stage centuries ago - and suitably, its built form shows. Rather messy and unkempt and full of contrasts. Not a bad thing.

Kind of sad that our infrastructure resembles that found in a developing country though...as is the case across Canada, and will continue to be the case for at least the next 4 years.

[Bdog]

Kind of sad that our infrastructure resembles that found in a developing country though...as is the case across Canada, and will continue to be the case for at least the next 4 years.

I guess you haven't been to many developing countries...

[Waterlooson]

^^ That's what I was going to say... to compare T.O. with a city in the 3rd world is absurd... and I spend a lot of time in Mexico... lots of dirt roads and slums in this resort city.

[Gresto]

And to think Toronto wouldn't be what it is today if Montreal hadn't self distructed 40 years ago.
Speaking of which I notice that Montreal isn't even listed in the report. Not even worth consideration. Interesting that...
Now come on guys, don't sink to the tit-for-tat, schoolyard-insults level of this habfan person. Haven't been there myself, but from everything I've seen Montreal's a lovely city.

[giallo]

^ Not only that, Habmanfan is originally from Ontario, is he not?

Just ignore him. He's currently the biggest troll/instigator on SSP and has been for awhile now. I'm not sure why he hasn't been booted off this site permanently.

[agrant]

Now come on guys, don't sink to the tit-for-tat, schoolyard-insults level of this habfan person. Haven't been there myself, but from everything I've seen Montreal's a lovely city.Of course Montreal is awesome. This is a ranking of "26 global centers of finance, business and culture". I guess Montreal is one of the many many cities that didn't qualify.

[trofirhen]

Toronto. Love that city; dynamic, pulsing, interesting ..... I just wish some people in Toronto could get over their intoxication with their recently-found importance, and stop bashing other Canadian cities.

Toronto, you have made it. You're not an adolecent any more, so please stop scorning out Vancouver, and Montreal. We all bow to you.

(This applies generally, not specifically to SSP members)!;)

[jeremy_haak]

Toronto. Love that city; dynamic, pulsing, interesting ..... I just wish some people in Toronto could get over their intoxication with their recently-found importance, and stop bashing other Canadian cities.

Toronto, you have made it. You're not an adolecent any more, so please stop scorning out Vancouver, and Montreal. We all bow to you.

(This applies generally, not specifically to SSP members)!;)

Aside from the occasional forum trolls, is this really a problem? I really don't believe that Torontonians are any more likely to bash another city than Vancouverites or Montrealers save for hockey games or some other inconsequential scenario.

For the record, most people out east actually really like Vancouver and BC. The continuous playing of the victimization card is becoming a bit tired.

[caltrane74]

habsfanman's wit and sarcasm are quite entertaining, and I must admit that his anti-Toronto Trolling is often the best thing about the Canada Forum.

Nothing more statisfying than seeing your own cities rise in global status and wealth bring out all this insecurity in a 50 year old man, who's only childhood memories of Toronto were when it was nothing more than a small Farming Village, only to see that same puritanical town rise up and pass the once largest city in Canada by more than 3 million people, and unmeasurable wealth within his already over extended lifetime.

[PoscStudent]

Why doesn't Toronto have their own thread?

[MolsonExport]

Get out your Leafs' window scrapers and start mast.......!

[Gerrard]

Montreal and Vancouver in all probability were not included because they aren't financial capitals.

Melbourne isn't known as a finance capital either, hence why Sydney often beats it out (even though some people might prefer Melbourne overall).

I was surprised how close they are in terms of population and wealth making them a true city v. city rivalry (more so than any Canadian cities can claim).

We have our regionalism but in the end it seems way more false and manufactured and only helped by a complete lack of cross regional mixing (due to our size perhaps or lack of curiosity about each other).

[kool maudit]

habfanman... you have to drop this toronto thing. everything else you post is judged by the standard you set with your toronto posts, and it's not a great one. i mean, you seem like a guy who does stuff, you travel, you had some interesting thoughts in the quebec thread... but this toronto hate is bizarre and will lead to your expulsion from the forum (i'm not a mod, but i know how these things go)

seriously, man...

[Acajack]

As world cities go, Toronto is not particularly flashy. One of the least flashy of the bunch in fact. But it discreetly does almost all of the little things right. That is the secret of its success.

[rousseau]

I think habfanman is funny. And what better tribute is there to a city than people who are obsessed with putting it down at every turn? I don't actually live in Toronto (I'm an hour and a half away), but I still think of it as "my" city, and I think habfanman's attentions are really rather flattering.

It shouldn't need be said, but a critical open season on Toronto by all and sundry is an ipso facto acknowledgment that it is this country's representative metropolis. Hogtowners on this forum should grow a thicker skin. Don't be so Canadian.

[isaidso]

I guess you haven't been to many developing countries...

You'd be surprised. Lots of developing countries are investing heavily in their infrastructure while Canada is patching up a crumbling, yet large system that's reached its best past due date.

Thailand, Malaysia, China, Turkey, etc. Canada still has a more extensive system than most places outside the West, but we're being passed by country after country after country. Burying out heads in the sand and convincing ourselves that we're still light years ahead of these other countries isn't just incorrect, it's foolhardy.

[isaidso]

^^ That's what I was going to say... to compare T.O. with a city in the 3rd world is absurd... and I spend a lot of time in Mexico... lots of dirt roads and slums in this resort city.

Mexico City is just one city so I wouldn't base your conclusion on that.

Btw, Mexico isn't considered the 3rd world and the developing world and 3rd world aren't the same thing. The developing world usually refers to countries like China, Turkey, Malaysia, Brazil, even South Korea. '3rd world' is an obsolete term these days and largely falling out of use. It's a condescending arrogant term used by rich nations in reference to desperately poor nations they consider below them.

[Ramako]

I think habfanman is funny. And what better tribute is there to a city than people who are obsessed with putting it down at every turn? I don't actually live in Toronto (I'm an hour and a half away), but I still think of it as "my" city, and I think habfanman's attentions are really rather flattering.

It shouldn't need be said, but a critical open season on Toronto by all and sundry is an ipso facto acknowledgment that it is this country's representative metropolis. Hogtowners on this forum should grow a thicker skin. Don't be so Canadian.

You're right. At first he used to irritate me, but now I actively look forward to his posts. His blind, seething and frankly inexplicable bitterness is amusing. It's like watching a cat trying to attack fish in a tank.

[brentwood]

Although infrastructure is not Toronto's or for that matter Canada's strong point currently, making comparisons to developing countries has to be tempered somewhat to recognize the sheer size and depth that is Canada. Sure Bangkok, to use one example, has a shiny new subway, Skytrain and even Airport Express but as is often the case in developing countries, investment is heavily concentrated in the megacities. The second largest city in Thailand doesn't even have a bus system.

Canada, in contrast, has decent public transport infrastructure in second and third tier cities. Also, due to Canada's sheer size think of the amount of airport infrastructure that is required and the amount of money needed to build and maintain it all. Of course Hong Kong has a kick ass airport, they only need one of them!

[Bdog]

You'd be surprised. Lots of developing countries are investing heavily in their infrastructure while Canada is patching up a crumbling, yet large system that's reached its best past due date.

Thailand, Malaysia, China, Turkey, etc. Canada still has a more extensive system than most places outside the West, but we're being passed by country after country after country. Burying out heads in the sand and convincing ourselves that we're still light years ahead of these other countries isn't just incorrect, it's foolhardy.

While I don't deny that the infrastructure deficit in Canada is extensive and mounting, it is absolutely ludricrous to suggest that our infrastructure is on par with that of developing countries (except maybe in certain remote areas and reserves).

Sure Bangkok, Beijing, Shanghai & Istanbul have fancy new transit systems, multi-lane freeways, and brand new waterworks projects. But, step out of the main cores of any developing country's mega-city, and what you'll find is something most Canadian's could never even imagine (the small cities and rural areas are even worse):

Scarce running water facilities. No sewage (just streetside gutters). Informal garbage disposal (in the gutters, or burnt in informal dumps). Dirt roads with pot-holes that would even seem foreign in early-April Winnipeg. Intermittant electricity (for those areas lucky enough to be served). I could go on and on.

Don't equate downtown Mexico City, Kuala Lampur, or Capetown as proxies for the developing world experience in terms of infrastructure...

[Waterlooson]

Mexico City is just one city so I wouldn't base your conclusion on that.

Nor was I ... I'm in Cabo San Lucas. Infrastructure like water (everyone has to have their own pila), and garbage disposal is primitive here.... I live along the trans-peninsular corridor, and they don't even have a sewer line that we can connect to... everyone just has a primitive septic system... not far from the wells. So to compare Canada's infrastructure to that of a country like Mexico is over the top for sure. And this place will be Mexico's show place next year with the G20 meeting.


Btw, Mexico isn't considered the 3rd world and the developing world and 3rd world aren't the same thing. The developing world usually refers to countries like China, Turkey, Malaysia, Brazil, even South Korea. '3rd world' is an obsolete term these days and largely falling out of use. It's a condescending arrogant term used by rich nations in reference to desperately poor nations they consider below them.

Well that's your opinion... I hear Mexicans (beyond the elites) refer to Mexico as "3rd world" all the time... I mean do you live here or what? We can't hide the truth about a place with political correctness.

[isaidso]

Nor was I ... I'm in Cabo San Lucas. Infrastructure like water (everyone has to have their own pila), and garbage disposal is primitive here.... I live along the trans-peninsular corridor, and they don't even have a sewer line that we can connect to... everyone just has a primitive septic system... not far from the wells. So to compare Canada's infrastructure to that of a country like Mexico is over the top for sure. And this place will be Mexico's show place next year with the G20 meeting.

Likewise, one country isn't a good basis to form conclusions. You're going to extrapolate your experiences in Mexico to every other developing country on the planet? Really???


Well that's your opinion... I hear Mexicans (beyond the elites) refer to Mexico as "3rd world" all the time... I mean do you live here or what?

And once again, you're forming your opinion based on a Mexican experience. Since when do Mexicans represent global opinion? Call someone 3rd world in most poor countries and they'll likely view you with contempt. No, I don't live in Mexico.

[isaidso]

While I don't deny that the infrastructure deficit in Canada is extensive and mounting, it is absolutely ludricrous to suggest that our infrastructure is on par with that of developing countries (except maybe in certain remote areas and reserves).

Sure Bangkok, Beijing, Shanghai & Istanbul have fancy new transit systems, multi-lane freeways, and brand new waterworks projects. But, step out of the main cores of any developing country's mega-city, and what you'll find is something most Canadian's could never even imagine (the small cities and rural areas are even worse):

Scarce running water facilities. No sewage (just streetside gutters). Informal garbage disposal (in the gutters, or burnt in informal dumps). Dirt roads with pot-holes that would even seem foreign in early-April Winnipeg. Intermittant electricity (for those areas lucky enough to be served). I could go on and on.

Don't equate downtown Mexico City, Kuala Lampur, or Capetown as proxies for the developing world experience in terms of infrastructure...

They're surely not proxies for the rest of their respective countries, but I find Canadians are being overly smug. Our infrastructure is crumbling and lots of cities in developing countries are rapidly catching up, and in some cases have shot by us.

Beijing's subway? It's better than anything in Canada. Their airport's better, their intercity rail is better, their port is better, and their highway/roads will surely be better in the not too distant future. This is a developing country and very poor by Canadian standards.

Comparing our infrastructure to that in some of these 'developing' countries is a worthwhile discussion. Ours infrastructure is better in many areas, but we're also falling behind in many other areas. Like it or not, people do compare things like downtown Toronto to downtown Beijing.

[Bdog]

They're surely not proxies for the rest of their respective countries, but I find Canadians are being overly smug. Our infrastructure is crumbling and lots of cities in developing countries are rapidly catching up, and in some cases have shot by us.

Beijing's subway? It's better than anything in Canada. Their airport's better, their intercity rail is better, their port is better, and their highway/roads will surely be better in the not too distant future. This is a developing country and very poor by Canadian standards.

Comparing our infrastructure to that in some of these 'developing' countries is a worthwhile discussion. Ours infrastructure is better in many areas, but we're also falling behind in many other areas. Like it or not, people do compare things like downtown Toronto to downtown Beijing.

Like I said before, I'll be the first to critique Canada's mounting infrastructure defecit. However, I think you're confusing "developing countries' infrastructure" with "developing countries' mega-city's core's infrastructure". Beijing's downtown and central city is up there with any city in the world, no question. However, this doesn't represent Beijing as a whole very accurately at all, and (without question) doesn't represent Chinese cities as a whole. It's an anomaly. Besides the relatively rich East Coast Chinese cities, the interior has generally horrible infrastructure.

Anywhere in Canada (except, as I mentioned, extremely remote areas and some reserves) has roads, sanitation systems, running water, electricity. One doesn't drive to the outskirts of Montreal and find tent cities where people are urinating in gutters and burning their garbage in ditches. You don't worry in Vancouver that if you have access to electricity, it's only on intermittantly for 4 or 5 hours a day. Rural Saskatchewanians don't have to walk 2 kms to the nearest well for water, and their gravel farm roads are in much better chape than what you'd find in say, rural South America...

It's easy to watch the 2008 Summer Olympics and say, "Wow, they've really surpassed Canada" or look at select infrastructure projects in Brazil/India/Etc and say "Wow, what a great subway system/airport". But these don't represent the country as a whole in any significant way. If you want to compare infra in developing vs. developed core cities, you definitely have a case. Countrywide, not a chance...

[Doady]

This is the Rob Ford Effect. Toronto has improved immensely already in the short time he has taken power.

[The_Architect]

This is the Rob Ford Effect. Toronto has improved immensely already in the short time he has taken power.

:haha: What?? What exactly has he done to improve Toronto since he took office? Cancel a funded transit plan in exchange for one that costs more and serves less?

This is almost 100% Miller's doing that has brought it up so much.

[BretttheRiderFan]

Look at the least developed major cities in Canada for infrastructure

Then look at the least developed major cities in China or India or Mexico for infrastructure

Saying "Beijing subway is better than anything in Canada" may be true, but doesn't mean China is better developed than Canada in any way shape or form

[Waterlooson]

Likewise, one country isn't a good basis to form conclusions. You're going to extrapolate your experiences in Mexico to every other developing country on the planet? Really???


As though Mexico is a shabby representative of the 3rd world (or the developing world as you euphemistically like you say). Mexico is better off than most 3rd world countries, and that's a fact... it's even a member of the G20... Next year's meeting will be held right here!

Sidewalks are uneven, lack of water treatment facilities, unreliable power (until a few years ago), water-main leaks all over the place, absence of recycling, garbage dumped wherever, traffic lights not working, wait for telephone service 2 years long (until recently), no storm sewers... get 2 inches of rain and the downtown is flooded out.

Canada's infrastructure is vastly better than most 3rd world countries... and better than any of them.

[Waterlooson]

Like I said before, I'll be the first to critique Canada's mounting infrastructure defecit. However, I think you're confusing "developing countries' infrastructure" with "developing countries' mega-city's core's infrastructure". Beijing's downtown and central city is up there with any city in the world, no question. However, this doesn't represent Beijing as a whole very accurately at all, and (without question) doesn't represent Chinese cities as a whole. It's an anomaly. Besides the relatively rich East Coast Chinese cities, the interior has generally horrible infrastructure.

Anywhere in Canada (except, as I mentioned, extremely remote areas and some reserves) has roads, sanitation systems, running water, electricity. One doesn't drive to the outskirts of Montreal and find tent cities where people are urinating in gutters and burning their garbage in ditches. You don't worry in Vancouver that if you have access to electricity, it's only on intermittantly for 4 or 5 hours a day. Rural Saskatchewanians don't have to walk 2 kms to the nearest well for water, and their gravel farm roads are in much better chape than what you'd find in say, rural South America...

It's easy to watch the 2008 Summer Olympics and say, "Wow, they've really surpassed Canada" or look at select infrastructure projects in Brazil/India/Etc and say "Wow, what a great subway system/airport". But these don't represent the country as a whole in any significant way. If you want to compare infra in developing vs. developed core cities, you definitely have a case. Countrywide, not a chance...

Spot on... Yours sound like the comments of a person who actually lives in one of these "developing" (or 3rd world) countries vs. someone who just has visited as a tourist... like making a big deal about Beijing's airport... to the average guy living there, the airport doesn't mean a damned thing! It's the mundane things - like sewer lines that do.

[habfanman]

Spot on! So we've established that Canada, one of the richest nations in the world, compares favourably- infrastructure wise- to most 3rd world and developing nations.

-Plan The Parade-

Too bad we look like shite compared to most other 1st world nations. It's embarrassing, quite frankly.

But hey, someone who's never been here fed some data into a computer and we came in second! (let's hope they never actually show up and witness for themselves:

"What's that then?" "Why that's a jauntily-angled wooden telegraph pole. Don't you have those where you're from?" "No, we buried ours 30 years ago" "Oh come now! Next you'll be telling me that you've invented a replacement for the mechanical subway token machine!" "Well, actually.."

[Waterlooson]

^^LOL... I agree with you.

[Ramako]

Spot on! So we've established that Canada, one of the richest nations in the world, compares favourably- infrastructure wise- to most 3rd world and developing nations.

-Plan The Parade-

Too bad we look like shite compared to most other 1st world nations. It's embarrassing, quite frankly.

But hey, someone who's never been here fed some data into a computer and we came in second! (let's hope they never actually show up and witness for themselves:

"What's that then?" "Why that's a jauntily-angled wooden telegraph pole. Don't you have those where you're from?" "No, we buried ours 30 years ago" "Oh come now! Next you'll be telling me that you've invented a replacement for the mechanical subway token machine!" "Well, actually.."

Do these relatively minor, albeit legitimate, quibbles really affect the livability, crime, pollution, health, education, innovation levels of a city? Why don't you read the actual report instead of dismissing it off-hand because it doesn't conform to your pre-conceived notions?

[MonkeyRonin]

"What's that then?" "Why that's a jauntily-angled wooden telegraph pole. Don't you have those where you're from?" "No, we buried ours 30 years ago" "Oh come now! Next you'll be telling me that you've invented a replacement for the mechanical subway token machine!" "Well, actually.."


For the record, this is in Paris:

http://imageshack.us/m/153/7636/55174238612def4b7670b.jpg
Source: forumer Minato Ku


And this is pretty much any street in Tokyo:

http://imageshack.us/m/839/6375/558145382621f4320d4ab.jpg
Source: forumer Kilgore-Trout


And while they might offend the orderly sensibilities of the more anal among us, as Ramako nicely put it - it in no way compromises the "livability" or influence of a city.

[habfanman]

Do these relatively minor, albeit legitimate, quibbles really affect the livability, crime, pollution, health, education, innovation levels of a city? Why don't you read the actual report instead of dismissing it off-hand because it doesn't conform to your pre-conceived notions?

lol! You think that's it? Telegraph poles and subway tokens? There are 100's of other fails, everything from bike lane fails to massive public transit fails. And although our crime rate compares favourably to the U.S. (the only barometer which is ever used in Canada), we even fail at that compared to most other 1st world nations. Pollution, health, education, innovation? Spend a few months in Northern Europe and get back to me on that. I speak two languages and I feel like an idiot most of the time here because that's all I speak.

There are virtually no signs that Canada even exists in the rest of the world because we hardly create anything. We sell the raw materials to countries who actually do create things. "You know that table you have there? I'll betcha that's Canadian wood! And by the way, your Porsche is probably running on Canadian gas haha!" "Yes, but the machinery you use cut the trees and extract the goo was designed and built here." "Yeah, well.. we assemble cars.. GM and Chryslers!"

Get your head out of the sand. Just because some bankers fed banker data into a computer and we came up banker second.. it doesn't actually compare to being somewhere and judging what you see with your own eyes. We're in a lot rougher shape than many people are willing to admit.

And I won't even get into our childish anti-fun laws. They may be even more embarrassing than anything else.

[jmt18325]

Yes, a country that consistently list amongst the best in the world is actually absolutely terrible...because you say so. Get a grip. There is a reason Canada does well. This isn't nearly the shit hole you make it out to be. Are things perfect? No. Are they better than almost anywhere else in the world? Yes. Are there infrastructure differences between Canada and some other countries, all of which are far more densely populated and most of which have far more in the way of government intervention? Yes. Does that make this a bad place? No.

BTW, Canada has industries outside of resources. I don't know if you realize this, but we still do a great deal of manufacturing here. We also have an aerospace industry that is large for our economy, and there are many Canadian biomedical and technological breakthroughs that happen every year. There are many, many examples. Financial services comes to mind. This country is far more than you want to make it out to be...and Toronto is a great city. So, like I said, get a grip.

[habfanman]

For the record, this is in Paris:

http://imageshack.us/m/153/7636/55174238612def4b7670b.jpg
Source: forumer Minato Ku


And this is pretty much any street in Tokyo:

http://imageshack.us/m/839/6375/558145382621f4320d4ab.jpg
Source: forumer Kilgore-Trout


And while they might offend the orderly sensibilities of the more anal among us, as Ramako nicely put it - it in no way compromises the "livability" or influence of a city.

Bravo internet traveller! Just google "other place fails" in order to prove that your fail isn't really a fail after all. Or at least it's only a "shared fail", which is OK, aim for the bottom.

Although I've never been there, so I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty sure that we're looking at a Tokyo alley and not a street. Why don't you google that so we'll know for sure. Or go there (hey! there's an idea!)

[Waterlooson]

I do feel that people need to stop harping about Canada's development of its natural resources... that takes research and brain power to develop as well. Natural resource exploitation is even more important to Australia... and they are getting rich on that... no one seems to ever take a shot at Australia for it.

Canada does have world-class research facilities in some areas.... Just in my hometown of Waterloo, Perimeter Institute will soon have the largest research staff in the world in fundamental theoretical physics Waterloo also has one of the world's leading facilities in nanotechnology and quantum computing ... superior to Boston's MIT.

[Metro-One]

:previous:I have lived in Japan before and have been to Osaka, Kobe, Kyoto, Hiroshima, Tokyo, etc... and I can tell you that nearly all of their electricity is above ground, and that includes running alongside and over the main streets. There are only a few select areas where they will be buried.

[Ramako]

lol! You think that's it? Telegraph poles and subway tokens? There are 100's of other fails, everything from bike lane fails to massive public transit fails. And although our crime rate compares favourably to the U.S. (the only barometer which is ever used in Canada), we even fail at that compared to most other 1st world nations. Pollution, health, education, innovation? Spend a few months in Northern Europe and get back to me on that. I speak two languages and I feel like an idiot most of the time here because that's all I speak.


I could produce countless lists, reports and studies from various organizations, commercial or otherwise, that rate Toronto and/or Canada very highly in terms of health care, education, pollution (not counting Alberta), crime, wealth, stability, opportunity, livability and much more.

You can produce vague anecdotes.

If you want to believe that Toronto and/or Canada is a shithole, that's fine. It's not worth my time to argue with ignorance.

[habfanman]

:previous:I have lived in Japan before and have been to Osaka, Kobe, Kyoto, Hiroshima, Tokyo, etc... and I can tell you that nearly all of their electricity is above ground, and that includes running alongside and over the main streets. There are only a few select areas where they will be buried.

That's not a valid excuse for us not to bury ours. Unless you think that we should emulate the worst fail that every country has to offer.

[The_Architect]

:haha: I wonder how many top 10 lists Toronto has to make before habfanman keels over and dies of a brain aneurysm..

[habfanman]

I could produce countless lists, reports and studies from various organizations, commercial or otherwise, that rate Toronto and/or Canada very highly in terms of health care, education, pollution (not counting Alberta), crime, wealth, stability, opportunity, livability and much more.

You can produce vague anecdotes.

If you want to believe that Toronto and/or Canada is a shithole, that's fine. It's not worth my time to argue with ignorance.

I'm not arguing that Canada doesn't rate highly in pretty much everything; every rich Western nation rates highly in everything. What I'm saying is that we are slipping, and slipping noticeably. Just look at you clowns, instead of saying "Hey, there's a better way to do something? We should emulate that!" You google "other country's fails" and say "Hey, they're failing in that area too so we're ok!"

So typical of Canada these days. Just wait until we become the google go to of "other country's fails". That'll be a proud day.

[Metro-One]

:previous:Funny thing is if anything infrastructure is getting better here on the west coast.
In the last 5 years and in the coming years we have had countless major bridges replaced (plus many new ones built), highways widened and upgraded, multi-billion dollar port expansions and upgrades, BC hydro has just began a multi-billion dollar project to upgrade and replace many of our aging dams (the one about 15km from where I live is getting 700 million spent on it alone), and even skytrain has more than doubled in length since 2000.

Sure, things are not perfect, and there are many aspects that need improvement, but in all honesty, 5 years from now infrastructure in BC will be the best it has ever been on many fronts.

(awaiting Habfanman's reply where he will equate BC to the asshole of the earth...)

[habfanman]

:haha: I wonder how many top 10 lists Toronto has to make before habfanman keels over and dies of a brain aneurysm..

Yeah, Toronto excels at making banker's "fed some numbers into the computer and even though we've never set foot there we figure it's top 10" kinda lists. And Torontonians do love their lists. What they can't handle is criticism. Negative articles are conveniently ignored.

And don't even tempt me to to publish top 10 lists from people who have actually set foot in the place that they're "listing".

[habfanman]

:previous:Funny thing is if anything infrastructure is getting better here on the west coast.
In the last 5 years and in the coming years we have had countless major bridges replaced (plus many new ones built), highways widened and upgraded, multi-billion dollar port expansions and upgrades, BC hydro has just began a multi-billion dollar project to upgrade and replace many of our aging dams (the one about 15km from where I live is getting 700 million spent on it alone), and even skytrain has more than doubled in length since 2000.

Sure, things are not perfect, and there are many aspects that need improvement, but in all honesty, 5 years from now infrastructure in BC will be the best it has ever been on many fronts.

(awaiting Habfanman's reply where he will equate BC to the asshole of the earth...)

No, that's what we want to hear. Besides that, Vancouver does a fantastic job of street beautification. None of this "If it looks like shit then it's really urban" nonsense.

[big T]

I think reducing Toronto's attractiveness, or lack thereof, to utility poles and subway coins misses the point of this list we're (supposed to be) discussing. But I guess we all know habfanman's bias toward Toronto.

(then again, I also fail to see how replying with a construction site in Paris and a Tokyo side street is expected to refute these claims)

All this being said, I like Toronto. Sad as it may be cities need these lists to promote themselves, so good on them. But within habfanman's rant was the valid point that Toronto still lacks some of the polish of those other cities it is aiming to contend with. If Toronto is going to use lists to raise its profile, consistency demands that it work at pleasing and retaining the sort of people who care about these lists.
I like grit as much as the next forumer, but I doubt that is the case for your average investment banker.

[jmt18325]

I'm not arguing that Canada doesn't rate highly in pretty much everything; every rich Western nation rates highly in everything. What I'm saying is that we are slipping, and slipping noticeably.

Almost every rich western country is 'slipping' in comparison to the rest of the world. The reason? It's far less expensive to operate in other parts of the world, for one, and for another, many of those countries have vast amounts of capital, and they don't have to answer to their populations every few years. Do you really want to live there?

The reality is, aside from a few examples (Canada, Germany, Australian, New Zealand, and Northern Europe), the western world is going broke, is having to cut services like crazy, and is in deep deep trouble. There actually isn't much evidence that we're slipping. Even the area that we and Australia were slipping, productivity, is finally turning around. Canada has a diverse economy that is made up of many sectors. Yes, resources are important to us, but they're important to almost every country that isn't going broke in the western world. We're not slipping. In many ways, we're actually gaining on many of our peers. It's the ones coming up from behind that are finally beginning to catch up (and quickly) that are making us look like we're standing still.

[Nouvellecosse]

I'm not arguing that Canada doesn't rate highly in pretty much everything; every rich Western nation rates highly in everything. What I'm saying is that we are slipping, and slipping noticeably. Just look at you clowns, instead of saying "Hey, there's a better way to do something? We should emulate that!" You google "other country's fails" and say "Hey, they're failing in that area too so we're ok!"

So typical of Canada these days. Just wait until we become the google go to of "other country's fails". That'll be a proud day.Comparing ourselves to other cities/countries is a valid way to refute criticism if the criticism itself is based on a comparison. There's a difference between saying something like "Toronto/Canada should really improve x, y, and z to make itself a better place to live" as compared to saying "Berlin, Hamburg and Amsterdam make Toronto look like a steaming heap of developing world shite."

The first statement is constructive and should not be countered by saying other places also need x, y, and z improvements since their need of improvement is irrelevant to Toronto or Canada's need for improvement. However, the second statement is not constructive and only implies that we look bad compared to other places, so if one can demonstrate that Toronto/Canada doesn't generally look bad compared to other places, the original assertion has been defeated.

Just to be clear, I'm not commenting on the accuracy of any of the things you've said. I'm just pointing out that if you want people to accept your criticism as being valid and constructive, you can not phrase it as an attack. If you do, not matter how valid the criticism may be, people will still reject it and deny it since you've said it in a way that makes them defensive. The vast majority of your comments toward Toronto - not only in this thread but in many others - have come across as attacks.rather than criticism, so it isn't surprising that people reject them.

[Waterlooson]

^^Excellent points by a few of you.

I also think there is a big dichotomy between west and east in Canada in so far as infrastructure improvements... Vancouver has been getting massive investments to improve its transportation network... skytrain, bridges, transCanada highway, etc.... both Calgary and Edmonton are building a huge highway ring-road around them, LRT in both cities is expanding... both have airport expansions going on... along with Winnipeg.

Too much emphasis is being placed on Toronto as a representation of what is going on in Canada.... when there is lots going on in the western cities which are going to figure prominently in the future.

[Calgarian]

Canada's biggest city is being recognized as one of the top economic, and most liveable cities in the world and everyone has to hate on it, why? this is a good thing for Toronto and Canada in general. Quit being petty homers and be happy for another city for once. Pathetic!

[kool maudit]

because of our... national problem, we can't discuss these things in a decent way. not only can we not give credit where credit is due, but our inability to do that also makes us unable to give realistic, constructive criticism, as that is invariably (and naturally) assumed to be a subtler form of the usual petty attack. the canadian dialogue is really, really problematic. how did we get so angry at each other?

[Ramako]

I'm not arguing that Canada doesn't rate highly in pretty much everything; every rich Western nation rates highly in everything. What I'm saying is that we are slipping, and slipping noticeably.

No, that's not what you were arguing.

You started out by saying that northern Europe makes Toronto "look like a steaming heap of developing world shite." I pointed out that Toronto consistently ranks among the top cities in the world on a variety of livability factors. Now you claim that Toronto does indeed rank highly, but that it doesn't matter because all western cities rank highly (which is simple untrue), and that Toronto is "slipping" (despite the fact that it's been steadily climbing these lists over the last decade).

Keep moving those goal posts. You're doing a great job. :tup:

[Ramako]

because of our... national problem, we can't discuss these things in a decent way. not only can we not give credit where credit is due, but our inability to do that also makes us unable to give realistic, constructive criticism, as that is invariably (and naturally) assumed to be a subtler form of the usual petty attack. the canadian dialogue is really, really problematic. how did we get so angry at each other?

You might be overstating the problem. The only person in this entire thread who has launched petty (and wholly unprovoked) attacks is habfanman. Perhaps, he's the one with a problem, not Canadians in general. I'd argue that everyone else has been very constructive in their commentary.

[Gerrard]

because of our... national problem, we can't discuss these things in a decent way. not only can we not give credit where credit is due, but our inability to do that also makes us unable to give realistic, constructive criticism, as that is invariably (and naturally) assumed to be a subtler form of the usual petty attack. the canadian dialogue is really, really problematic. how did we get so angry at each other?

I think sometimes we tend to take praise of one thing (a city, any one) to mean criticism of another (*our* particular city), when nothing of the sort is meant or inferred. We don't have the will or ability to celebrate national achievements. It's our sad inferiority complex gone awry.

[freeweed]

This thread is being successfully trolled, from more than one angle too. It's highly entertaining.

[WhipperSnapper]

^^Excellent points by a few of you.

I also think there is a big dichotomy between west and east in Canada in so far as infrastructure improvements... Vancouver has been getting massive investments to improve its transportation network... skytrain, bridges, transCanada highway, etc.... both Calgary and Edmonton are building a huge highway ring-road around them, LRT in both cities is expanding... both have airport expansions going on... along with Winnipeg.

Too much emphasis is being placed on Toronto as a representation of what is going on in Canada.... when there is lots going on in the western cities which are going to figure prominently in the future.

There's an unbelieveable amount of investment going on in Toronto as well. I don't know why the notion persists that nothing is going on. The Harris days are long gone. Even the overhead wires are slowly being buried.

[niwell]

There's an unbelieveable amount of investment going on in Toronto as well. I don't know why the notion persists that nothing is going on. The Harris days are long gone. Even the overhead wires are slowly being buried.

Shhhhh... don't let on that streetscape improvements are actually happening at a decent pace. Someone might just have an aneurysm.

[someone123]

I usually find it silly when somebody comments on the sidewalks after visiting a city. It's kind of a triviality, but public realm improvements like that are probably the cheapest way of making Toronto a nicer city. It doesn't have enough good public space.

In Halifax this issue highlights just how pathetic the municipal government is; they can't get it together enough to properly maintain downtown streets that are paying millions in property taxes.

[Andy6]

Did they factor in smell (http://www.thestar.com/news/article/989414--city-mystified-as-foul-smell-returns-to-toronto?bn=1&sms_ss=twitter&at_xt=4dcb3229d9d4d7d4,0)?

Toronto could be a good deal worse. That's how I look at it. It's very much a bottom-up city that's interesting and often quite agreeable at ground level but which is drifting at the meta-level like a Zeppelin that has come unmoored. It's anyone's guess where it's heading. No one's from here so no one cares all that much.

I'm going out for a walk now, here in the 2nd best city on Earth. Lower-ranked cities may now begin to drool enviously.

[Acajack]

Did they factor in smell (http://www.thestar.com/news/article/989414--city-mystified-as-foul-smell-returns-to-toronto?bn=1&sms_ss=twitter&at_xt=4dcb3229d9d4d7d4,0)?

Toronto could be a good deal worse. That's how I look at it. It's very much a bottom-up city that's interesting and often quite agreeable at ground level but which is drifting at the meta-level like a Zeppelin that has come unmoored. It's anyone's guess where it's heading. No one's from here so no one cares all that much.

.

I really like the metaphor here.

[graupner]

Who is this habfanman retard ? I tought he was kind of funny, but the more I read, the more I think he's a nuisance...

[trofirhen]

Speaking of which I notice that Montreal isn't even listed in the report. Not even worth consideration. Interesting that...

;)

On a serious note, it is worth reviewing the actual report. It's pretty comprehensive. If only we had a decent transit system, we'd have topped the list.
:previous::previous::previous:

Do you not think Toronto has a decent transit system? The subway, the commuter trains, streetcars, busses, you seem to have it all.
I will admit that I used to think there could be more subway lines in such a big city, and now it seems they're moving on that