[Metro-One]

I think that's a pretty bogus argument. American and Canadian cities don't for the most part interest those who live in similar places because, well, they're similar. That doesn't mean that they don't have identities. Often, people are simply ignorant of the identities.

Yeah, I wasn't going to join in on this debate, i also get tired of this same old tiresome "no identity" ideology.

But, oh well, may as well. I know for one that while it may be young, Vancouver indeed does have an identity, as much as Seattle has an identity, in fact, to say any city does not have an identity is incredibly arrogant.

All of the visitors and immigrant i meet here, go to school with, work with, meet on the train (especially the Canada line coming from the airport) all seem to feel that Vancouver has a strong identity.

in fact, if Vancouver and indeed Toronto and Calgary didn't have strong identities, they would not be so commonly bashed upon on these sites! I do admit that Toronto is definitely going through a major transition phase, therefore its identity is hard to pin down right now, but all cities go through such phases, for it is simply evolving from its old identity into a new one!

And for the record, many Asians think Vancouver is the capital of canada! haha (especially those from mainland China)

I am curious, do many here believe the New Zealand has no identity due to its media / film / etc... being largely Australian and American based?

[Acajack]

I am curious, do many here believe the New Zealand has no identity due to its media / film / etc... being largely Australian and American based?

You may regret bringing this up! ;)

New Zealand actually has a very strong domestic film industry. I believe the most popular film in NZ in 2010 was a domestic production called "BOY". It grossed something like 7.5 million Canadian dollars. Consider that the top-grossing Canadian film in English, "Men with Brooms", grossed in the 4-5 million dollar range in a domestic market seven times the size of New Zealand. New Zealand, a country of 4.5 million people, actually produces quite a few films that score well at the box office every single year.

Anyway, now you won't be able to accuse us of raising the pop culture angle! :tup:

[jigglysquishy]

Lord of the Rings has done so much for promoting New Zealand. So many youth view the country as the most naturally beautiful country on the planet

Vancouver is really the only city west of Qubec in Canada with any sort of identity. Even though I love Toronto it doesn't beat out Montreal or Vancouver in terms of character. TIFF is certainly doing a lot to make Toronto into one of those cities.

I'm not trying to bash Canadian cities but just pointing out a difference between our cities and many others in the world.

Take Dublin for example. Guinness is found everywhere. Does any Canadian city have that kind of beer loyalty? I could continue on that path with their song and literature. Does any Canadian city have any author proud enough of that city to write entire novels based on the character of those cities?

We certainly have lots of Canadians pushing to make our cities great. Take someone like David Suzuki who is world famous and has made it known how much he loves Vancouver. On a smaller scale I'm sure we all know that local pub owner, singer, artist, restaurant owner etc. who has done a lot of promoting unique local culture.

And there are lots of American cities with unique identities. NYC, Boston, Miami, San Fran, New Orleans.

I also wanted to point out that promoting urbanity goes hand in hand with a strong local culture and identity. As Canada continues the urban trend I think you'll see a lot of our cities really grow into something great.

[Acajack]

I would make the argument that New York is the most interesting city in the world. A lot of that comes that it's been the multicultural Mecca since 1850. Being the largest city in the world for a large part of that certainly helps too.

What makes a city great is the uniqueness and culture. Some cities achieve it through sheer force(NYC) while some rely on their historical strength (Athens) and others rely on a more steady growth(Munich).

I think the biggest thing that drags our cities down is that no one cares about local culture anymore. A place like Paris has it's own style of architecture, cuisine, art, music, etc. Part of that comes from it's history and part comes from it's citizens fiercely defending the city and maintaining it's cultural strength.

Outside of Quebec, Montreal and maybe Halifax no city in Canada has a real identity. People in other cities are content eating in American restaurants, watching American movies, listening to American music etc. There's a reason Quebec's film output absolutely demolish's everything west of Ottawa.

If we really want to create great cities we shouldn't be focusing on pure numbers. We should be pushing local or Canadian culture whenever possible. Afterall, no one goes to Florence to eat at McDonalds.


Sounds like comments I once heard from Calgary-born author Nancy Huston. She observed that at some point in history (sometime in the 20th century), there was a turning point that was reached after which places that "grew up" later than this had little hope of developing a true sense of place because the water they were born into (ie the comtemporary evolution of modern human societies) tended to homogenize things and stifle originality in more recently settled regions and cities.

In Canada and U.S., according to her, pretty much only the very eastern portions of the continent (Atlantic Canada, Quebec, New England) had anything resembling a "sense of place", and this explained why most of the cities in the rest of NA - regardless of size - struggled to define their identities and culture.

She sort of addressed this indirectly in her novel Plainsong, which is set in Alberta.

[Acajack]

Lord of the Rings has done so much for promoting New Zealand. So many youth view the country as the most naturally beautiful country on the planet

Vancouver is really the only city west of Qubec in Canada with any sort of identity. Even though I love Toronto it doesn't beat out Montreal or Vancouver in terms of character. TIFF is certainly doing a lot to make Toronto into one of those cities.

I'm not trying to bash Canadian cities but just pointing out a difference between our cities and many others in the world.

Take Dublin for example. Guinness is found everywhere. Does any Canadian city have that kind of beer loyalty? I could continue on that path with their song and literature. Does any Canadian city have any author proud enough of that city to write entire novels based on the character of those cities?

We certainly have lots of Canadians pushing to make our cities great. Take someone like David Suzuki who is world famous and has made it known how much he loves Vancouver. On a smaller scale I'm sure we all know that local pub owner, singer, artist, restaurant owner etc. who has done a lot of promoting unique local culture.

And there are lots of American cities with unique identities. NYC, Boston, Miami, San Fran, New Orleans.

I also wanted to point out that promoting urbanity goes hand in hand with a strong local culture and identity. As Canada continues the urban trend I think you'll see a lot of our cities really grow into something great.

Jigglysquishy, I really like everything you have said on this thread.

I also wanted to add that although I have sounded very negative here, I do agree that many Canadian cities are on the right track. Only time will tell if Nancy Huston was right, and that cities that grew up in the 20th century are hopeless because they came of age "too late", or if it's just a question of time and we have to be patient.

[jigglysquishy]

I think the trend was actually urban sprawl. Downtown Calgary is on the verge of breaking out into an urban oasis fillers with local art and cuisine. The suburbs are a hopeless shell of American box stores.

I think that's a big reason why Vancouver is so successful. It has an impressively dense core. Stick that many young people in close together and eventually great art and cuisine will follow.

[Acajack]

I think the trend was actually urban sprawl. (...) The suburbs are a hopeless shell of American box stores.



Suburban sprawl is a huge part of it, but it's not the only problem. Don't want to make it all about her, but Houston was also referring to rural areas being very soulless and without character. When I read her stuff it took me back to my days working in Canadian tourism where foreign tourists would often report being very disappointed by small town Canada, especially in the part of Canada west of the Ottawa River. Quebec and Atlantic Canada, though not necessarily equivalent to what you find in Europe, apparently had more of the small towns and villages filled with character that you typically find in Europe.

There are some exceptions of course (Niagara-on-the-Lake, Elmira, Merrickville in Ontario, for example), but by and large even semi-interesting small towns (from a tourist's perspective) are not that common from Ontario westwards.

Visitor exit surveys in Ontario and the Prairies would often yield comments like: "Big cities are OK to good, small towns and rural areas boring".

[Gerrard]

I think the way some of you look at and define identity is somewhat narrow.

A city like Toronto actually does have an identity, unfortunately it's not necessarily a commercial or marketable one. But it's one that infuses all of the arts that tend to come out of this city.

Any time I watch a Cronenberg film I see it, or even a Bruce LaBruce film, it's there. Its there in the rich literary tradition of Toronto, the music and visual arts. The bourgeois interplay with a Gothic undercurrent is very Toronto. Perhaps you need to live here or to spend time in Toronto to see it but it exists. And no you won't find it wandering Bay Street or hanging out on Richmond.

It's probably why we produce so many internationally recognized funnymen and women.

[kool maudit]

Toronto definitely "feels" a certain way. In spite of its alleged genericness, there is nowhere on the continent that feels like it. It is far more arch, far more kinky-High-Victorian, far more Margaret-Atwood's-raised-eyebrow than its supposed peers in the U.S. midwest... but, as Gerrard says, it's kind of hard to get out.

I remember walking down towards Queen, somewhere in the west end one night -- on mushrooms, aged 22 -- and being like "this city is so weird... it looks like Detroit meets Amsterdam."

It was something about the high, narrow gables contrasting with the heavy, U.S.-style street furniture -- yellow traffic lights and the like. It was weirdly jarring.

[Dmajackson]

Take Dublin for example. Guinness is found everywhere. Does any Canadian city have that kind of beer loyalty? I could continue on that path with their song and literature. Does any Canadian city have any author proud enough of that city to write entire novels based on the character of those cities?

Come to Halifax and drink a beer that is not Moosehead, Garrison, or Keith's and you will see just how loyal we are to our local brands.

We might a very tolerant city but when it comes to alcohol we will hate anyone who does not drink what we drink. It's the same for some food products. Local products like blueberries, maple syrup, potatoes and apples taste weird if they are not from the Maritimes.

[someone123]

Suburban sprawl is a huge part of it, but it's not the only problem. Don't want to make it all about her, but Houston was also referring to rural areas being very soulless and without character.

Today people just leave the little towns, and at any rate good cultural contributions tend to become global very quickly. I think this is a net benefit for humanity, but local cultural distinctiveness is definitely on the decline.

Even the European towns are less culturally diverse than they used to be. A couple hundred years ago, regional dialects were very prominent in France. In Nova Scotia in 1900, about 30% of the population spoke Gaelic.

[Chadillaccc]

So when is Canada projected to pass 35 million?

The population of BC is well over 4.6 million correct? and is Alberta almost at 4 million?

[rousseau]

Today people just leave the little towns, and at any rate good cultural contributions tend to become global very quickly. I think this is a net benefit for humanity, but local cultural distinctiveness is definitely on the decline.

Even the European towns are less culturally diverse than they used to be. A couple hundred years ago, regional dialects were very prominent in France. In Nova Scotia in 1900, about 30% of the population spoke Gaelic.
Well said. If someone in Manchester has a good idea, why shouldn't everyone everywhere share it?

That's a fascinating factoid about Gaelic in Nova Scotia. I think there have been more Gaelic speakers in the Maritimes than in the UK or Ireland for the past hundred years or even much longer (famously, see the beginning of Joyce's Ulysses set in 1904). But while languages are dying all the time, yet they still persist, and one wonders if we'll ever be monolingual on this globe. Or, at least, surely it won't happen quickly. Think about it: regional accents in English have persisted in spite of our digital interconnectedness over the past few decades. Indeed, they're very healthy. There's no danger that Texans or Lancastrians are going to begin sounding like New Yorkers or Londoners any time soon.

Which is sort of confounding, but perhaps it speaks to the primacy of physical place for most people. Most people still talk to more people locally than they do with people in other area codes, especially during their formative years. I don't see distinctive accents melding with each other until five-year-olds are taught en masse in virtual-reality cyber-schools broadcasting from a centralized location like Ottawa. Is that ever going to happen?

[rousseau]

Toronto definitely "feels" a certain way. In spite of its alleged genericness, there is nowhere on the continent that feels like it. It is far more arch, far more kinky-High-Victorian, far more Margaret-Atwood's-raised-eyebrow than its supposed peers in the U.S. midwest... but, as Gerrard says, it's kind of hard to get out.

I remember walking down towards Queen, somewhere in the west end one night -- on mushrooms, aged 22 -- and being like "this city is so weird... it looks like Detroit meets Amsterdam."

It was something about the high, narrow gables contrasting with the heavy, U.S.-style street furniture -- yellow traffic lights and the like. It was weirdly jarring.
That's a tribute of the highest order, KM. Seriously.

I currently live west of Kitchener in "Southern Ontario Gothic" country, but really, Toronto is its capital. You know what? It's an odd feeling, this sense that I belong here combined with an attraction to its various cultural underpinnings and aspects (you're right, it isn't "generic" at all) in light of the fact that in my early 20s I felt a revulsion for Toronto and Ontario in general, and wanted to get the hell out. And did.

[someone123]

The Gaelic speakers tended to persist in more marginal areas, and people in these areas were most likely to emigrate when the opportunity arose. It is interesting how immigrant groups are frequently a narrow segment of society. Russian Jews for example are disproportionately likely to move to North America. The migration from Atlantic Canada to blue collar Alberta is similarly "narrow", but along economic lines. Half of Cape Breton seems to have decamped, but practically nobody from the city with an education moves to Fort McMurray. As a result of these migrations it's easy to develop misleading views of other countries.

I find the Gaelic thing interesting because I honestly had no idea of it until I read an article on the NS archive site showing street signs in Antigonish. If I had lived in 1900 it would have been an obvious fact, and 100 years later it's hard to even imagine. I believe that the homogenization of culture is happening very quickly, to the point where people who are still alive in a couple of generations will probably remember all sorts of things that will be completely foreign to young people. I don't think the Texas accent has a very long shelf life unless the economy goes downhill. How many people in Austin talk in a Texan drawl?

And yes, I think centralized education is going to become pretty popular. Peter Norvig, maybe the best-known AI researcher around, has a free class going on now with something like 140,000 participants. I haven't looked at any of the lectures yet but they are probably superior to what most profs could come up with.

[Mister F]

I think the trend was actually urban sprawl. Downtown Calgary is on the verge of breaking out into an urban oasis fillers with local art and cuisine. The suburbs are a hopeless shell of American box stores.

I think that's a big reason why Vancouver is so successful. It has an impressively dense core. Stick that many young people in close together and eventually great art and cuisine will follow.
The cores of Toronto and Montreal are just as dense as the core of Vancouver, if not more so. If you think Vancouver is the only city west of Quebec that has an "identity", clearly you're not paying attention. Really, the idea that any community doesn't have an identity is silly to begin with.

[Vaillant]

Lord of the Rings has done so much for promoting New Zealand. So many youth view the country as the most naturally beautiful country on the planet

Vancouver is really the only city west of Qubec in Canada with any sort of identity. Even though I love Toronto it doesn't beat out Montreal or Vancouver in terms of character. TIFF is certainly doing a lot to make Toronto into one of those cities.

I'm not trying to bash Canadian cities but just pointing out a difference between our cities and many others in the world.

Take Dublin for example. Guinness is found everywhere. Does any Canadian city have that kind of beer loyalty? I could continue on that path with their song and literature. Does any Canadian city have any author proud enough of that city to write entire novels based on the character of those cities?

We certainly have lots of Canadians pushing to make our cities great. Take someone like David Suzuki who is world famous and has made it known how much he loves Vancouver. On a smaller scale I'm sure we all know that local pub owner, singer, artist, restaurant owner etc. who has done a lot of promoting unique local culture.

And there are lots of American cities with unique identities. NYC, Boston, Miami, San Fran, New Orleans.

I also wanted to point out that promoting urbanity goes hand in hand with a strong local culture and identity. As Canada continues the urban trend I think you'll see a lot of our cities really grow into something great.

i like you :notacrook:

[isaidso]

So when is Canada projected to pass 35 million?

The population of BC is well over 4.6 million correct? and is Alberta almost at 4 million?

I doubt we'll breach 35 million till about 2012-2013. BC is at 4.6, but Alberta is only at 3.8 million.

[freeweed]

I think the way some of you look at and define identity is somewhat narrow.

No kidding. I find it the height of irony that so many otherwise intelligent Canadians define "identity" as those qualities that most resemble other cities (most of the time older European cities).

As I travel more and more in my life, not only do I feel a strong "Canadian" identity, but even moreso a regional one as well (depending on audience). Whether it's my own personal strong connection to the West, or my city connections (my birthplace, the place I grew up, and/or the place I chose to eventually settle in)... I connect with people all over the place as a result. And as I compare and contrast my own identity with people from all over the planet, I realize just how unique I am. Well, how unique everyone is, but I can only truly speak for myself. I'm not willing to paint millions with the same brush.

To hear someone talk about how the Canadian West has no identity or sense of place... I can't even call that insulting. It's just pure ignorance. Maybe I just know a lot more of the history and see its results every single day. But it does remind me a lot of Victorian conceit, where the enlightened classes had decided that all human progress was basically over, and pretty much everything since the Industrial Revolution wouldn't matter. So they were free to ignore a century of progress because they insisted on living in the past. Basically take the Renaissance, add steam power, and the world was complete and fully formed. How could anything newer even compete?

Travelling in the US southwest might be the most educational time of my life. Because it's comfortably familiar, and yet so alien at the same time.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

No kidding. I find it the height of irony that so many otherwise intelligent Canadians define "identity" as those qualities that most resemble other cities (most of the time older European cities).

As I travel more and more in my life, not only do I feel a strong "Canadian" identity, but even moreso a regional one as well (depending on audience). Whether it's my own personal strong connection to the West, or my city connections (my birthplace, the place I grew up, and/or the place I chose to eventually settle in)... I connect with people all over the place as a result. And as I compare and contrast my own identity with people from all over the planet, I realize just how unique I am. Well, how unique everyone is, but I can only truly speak for myself. I'm not willing to paint millions with the same brush.

To hear someone talk about how the Canadian West has no identity or sense of place... I can't even call that insulting. It's just pure ignorance. Maybe I just know a lot more of the history and see its results every single day. But it does remind me a lot of Victorian conceit, where the enlightened classes had decided that all human progress was basically over, and pretty much everything since the Industrial Revolution wouldn't matter. So they were free to ignore a century of progress because they insisted on living in the past. Basically take the Renaissance, add steam power, and the world was complete and fully formed. How could anything newer even compete?

Travelling in the US southwest might be the most educational time of my life. Because it's comfortably familiar, and yet so alien at the same time.

That's pretty much exactly how I feel. Getting out of my little corner of Canada and meeting people from others parts of the country has shown me how different we are across the country. Not just from a cultural standpoint, but an environmental one as well. I had some friends from BC here recently who had no idea what a cardinal was.

[Razor]

yup Toronto does feel a certain way...I would h8 to put a label on it, but if I did, and just for fun I would say a common wealthy mini Manhattan..
Having been to Manhattan, but never to London England I'm just throwing it out there..It's got great established neighbourhoods and although I prefer the soul and vibe of Montreal, Toronto definitely has it's own thing going on.
A great city has a healthy Arts and theaters scene , and Toronto covers that.
It's not just a generic great lakes city in my books. Both Toronto and Chi-town are above that.

[isaidso]

yup Toronto does feel a certain way...I would h8 to put a label on it, but if I did, and just for fun I would say a common wealthy mini Manhattan..
Having been to Manhattan, but never to London England I'm just throwing it out there..It's got great established neighbourhoods and although I prefer the soul and vibe of Montreal, Toronto definitely has it's own thing going on.
A great city has a healthy Arts and theaters scene , and Toronto covers that.
It's not just a generic great lakes city in my books. Both Toronto and Chi-town are above that.

Agree, but isn't Toronto more of a middle income earning city relative to other major cities on the continent. The term 'wealthy' is relative.