[M II A II R II K]

Toronto: Tea Party mayor on the rocks


November 9, 2011

http://www.globalpost.com/sites/all/themes/globalpost_3/images/header_logo.png

Read More: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/canada/111108/toronto-tea-party-mayor-the-rocks

Watching politicians implode is never a pretty sight. All the more so when the politician is a gruff, 300-plus-pounder who flips the finger to voters, swears at 911 operators and has a strained relationship with the truth. It has been a year since Rob Ford was overwhelmingly elected as Toronto’s mayor, and the honeymoon is over. It’s hard to blame Ford for the falling out. He never pretended to be more than an unexceptional city councilor with anger-management issues. What’s stunning is how readily he was embraced by a city that thinks of itself as the most sophisticated in the country.

- By vowing to slash “waste” in Toronto’s $9.2 billion operating budget, and proclaiming the supremacy of the car, Ford tapped into the city’s latent conservatism and became a kind of Tea-Party mayor. His tenure unraveled into farce. The apex came at the end of October, when one of Canada’s foremost satirists, Mary Walsh, tried to co-opt Ford into a skit for the long-running TV comedy show, This Hour Has 22 Minutes. Dressed as her alter-ego, a plastic sword-bearing “warrior princess” named Marg Delahunty, Walsh tried to interview Ford in his suburban driveway as he got into his minivan to go to work.

- Liberal US political commenter, Keith Olbermann, referred to the episode on his Current TV show last week to dub Ford the “effing worst person in the effing world.” Ford’s version of events might have had more credibility if he didn’t have a record of being less-than-truthful. In 2006, a couple attending a Toronto Maple Leafs hockey game accused Ford of being drunk, shouting obscenities and telling the woman to “go to Iran and get raped and shot.” Ford was eventually escorted out of the arena by security guards. When confronted about the incident by a reporter, Ford claimed he was never at the game. Later, he admitted he lied, and apologized for his behavior. Then, in 2008, he was charged with uttering a death threat to his wife. The charges were eventually dropped.

- In June, Ford became the first mayor since 1994 to snub all events at Pride Week, a celebration of the city’s large gay community, which includes a parade that attracts a half million people. Then came the story of Ottilie Mason, a woman who, while driving with her 6-year-old daughter and a babysitter, happened to pull up next to Ford at a major intersection in downtown Toronto. She says she saw Ford behind the wheel of his minivan talking on his cellphone, an act that breaks provincial law.

- Mason gave Ford the thumbs down and told him to stop talking on the phone. Ford responded, she says, by raising his middle finger. Ford later released a statement acknowledging he was on his cell phone, but described the finger allegation as “not accurate.” He said it was “unfortunate this misunderstanding occurred.” When asked in a TV interview, “What happened with flipping the bird?” Ford laughed for a full ten seconds and said, “That’s funny,” before his press secretary ended the interview.

- On policy, Ford scrapped an $8 billion transit plan that the previous administration spent years negotiating with higher levels of government. It would have provided streetcar service to some of the city’s poorest suburbs. He removed the right to strike for public-transit workers and contracted out garbage pick-up in the western half of the city. He also scrapped a $60 vehicle-registration fee, which had brought in $64 million a year. Motorists were happy, but for a city facing what Ford says is a $774 million budget shortfall, the loss of revenue hurt. Elected on the slogan, “Stop the gravy train,” Ford found little waste to cut. He did, however, end free snacks at meetings for the city’s 44 councilors.

- He caused a public outcry by considered the closing of libraries. When Margaret Atwood criticized the move, Ford’s brother and de-facto deputy mayor treated the internationally acclaimed writer as a nobody: “I don’t even know her,” Doug Ford said. “If she walked by me I wouldn’t have a clue who she is.”

- Ford’s support on city council started crumbling when he and his brother announced they would replace a waterfront revitalization housing project, which was years in the planning, with a tourist-focused one that included a monorail, Ferris wheel and giant shopping mall. Some of his staunchest supporters forced him to back down. By September, opinion polls showed his popularity plummeting. But Ford wasn’t done yet.

- Last month, the Toronto Star newspaper revealed that he outsourced the printing of his business cards to his family’s company. The $1,579 bill was up to four times higher than the cost of business cards ordered from the city printer. For a mayor who crusades on ending “perks and waste,” it smacked of an embarrassing conflict of interest. There are three more years left in Ford’s mandate, plenty more time for the mayor to hold up an unflattering mirror to a city that thinks of itself as so haughtily different.

.....




http://www.globalpost.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/gp3_small_article/rob_ford_2011_11_08.jpg

[drew]

How the hell did this guy get voted in?

[Ramako]

How the hell did this guy get voted in?

Suburban voters.

[kool maudit]

because canada isn't always what the media class pretends it is. there are a great many people who live, work and vote, and yet resemble, say, pierre trudeau to no noticeable degree.

[mr.John]

Could be another example of Torontonians trying prove that they're good little wannabe Americians ,what better way to do so by electing a tea party windbag (Canadian version)

[M II A II R II K]

The old City Of Toronto didn't vote him in but the other wards did.

[kool maudit]

i don't think torontonians are wannabe americans. i think that's a myth.

[MrOilers]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/Blackjebus/rob-ford.jpg

[Bdog]

How the hell did this guy get voted in?

Lots of reasons. Suburban people felt left out (felt Miller had too much of a downtown focus). People felt that spending was out of control and taxes too high (which wasn't really the case). Rob Ford came in at the perfect time - a fiscal conservative (in a race with no real other right-wing option) promising to cut the non-existant gravy train, cut unpopular taxes (land transfer, car registration), and stand up for the little guy... He's essentially our version of Herman Cain - a straight-talker everyman with no clue how things actually work...

[MolsonExport]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/Blackjebus/rob-ford.jpg

Looks like he is about to pass a lot of gas. The guy is less useful (and a great deal less intelligent) than a bag of fart.

[Chadillaccc]

Lots of reasons. Suburban people felt left out (felt Miller had too much of a downtown focus). People felt that spending was out of control and taxes too high (which wasn't really the case). Rob Ford came in at the perfect time - a fiscal conservative (in a race with no real other right-wing option) promising to cut the non-existant gravy train, cut unpopular taxes (land transfer, car registration), and stand up for the little guy... He's essentially our version of Herman Cain - a straight-talker everyman with no clue how things actually work...


yup :tup:

[mr.John]

i don't think torontonians are wannabe americans. i think that's a myth.

Wasn't their last mayor an American? what other major Canadian city ever elected an American born mayor? didn't they have a recent NFL game at Mr.Roger's stadium? doesn't their film festival feature nothing but American films.... American American American god bless America,PS this lard ass is probably named after the Ford motor company which is afterall American

[Echoes]

I'm taking great pleasure in watching this guy implode.

It would be more hilarious, however, if this wasn't so real and he didn't have the ability to do damage to Toronto by doing so.

[samne]

How the hell did this guy get voted in?

1) Largest campaign budget by far. (money buys elections)

2) Backing of the Conservative Party Machine to make inroads into the GTA.

3) Splintered left wing with multiple candidates

4) The region coming out of a recession and was hooked into promises of lowering taxes and getting rid of "lifetime guaranteed" jobs.

5) Garbage list of candidates anyways.

[Gerrard]

Re: teaparty - Canada was actually at the forefront of this sort of movement in the 90s

it was just called the Reform Party.

People assume Canadians are taking their cues from an American movement but in reality it's just addled memories and media saturation.

either way they're just branch arms of elitists masquerading as populists.

As for Ford, I'm actually surprised how fast the tide turned against him. He and his handlers really misjudged his popularity and the reasons for his election -namely poor alternative candidates. Miller would have won again had he run.

[Vaillant]

this should be in toronto section!

[niwell]

Wasn't their last mayor an American? what other major Canadian city ever elected an American born mayor? didn't they have a recent NFL game at Mr.Roger's stadium? doesn't their film festival feature nothing but American films.... American American American god bless America,PS this lard ass is probably named after the Ford motor company which is afterall American

David Miller was born in the United States, but immigrated to Canada (after a stint in the UK) in 1967. Harvard undergrad time notwithstanding he has been in Toronto pretty much ever since. Yes, the Bill's play one regular season game a year in Toronto. TIFF films may be largely American as reflective of the overall market, but do show many Canadian and international movies.

I'm not sure how this all adds up.


As to the question at hand others have summed it up nicely. I'd also like to stress the unsuitability of the other candidates by the time of the election. Really there weren't any decent choices, though I would say Ford was the worst.

[Acajack]

Wasn't their last mayor an American? what other major Canadian city ever elected an American born mayor? didn't they have a recent NFL game at Mr.Roger's stadium? doesn't their film festival feature nothing but American films.... American American American god bless America,PS this lard ass is probably named after the Ford motor company which is afterall American

I am somewhat in between you and Kool. A lot of the evidence cited above is dubious/tenuous at best.

On the other hand, although I would agree with Kool that labelling Torontonians as wannabe Americans is excessive, there is something peculiar about their relationship with the U.S.

Certainly the U.S. and its culture hold an extremely powerful allure there (well, in most parts of Canada, but in Toronto it sometimes seems overwhelming), and when you are there you certainly sense that Toronto is *drawn* to the U.S., without ever really crossing the line and embracing "Americanness" fully though.

[kool maudit]

the american thing just doesn't seem like something that is part of the torontonian self-ideal. i don't find the city's demeanour or character to be very american, even as its physical environment, to some degree, is. america and americans are louder and warmer. toronto is commonwealth high-capitalist, an example of convergent evolution.

other canadian cities feel more american to me, or at least like they could be more plausibly stitched into the american nation. halifax, oddly enough, is one.

[mr.John]

In all seriousness how does the so-called financial capital of Canada, the largest city in the country, manage to rack up a $774 million budget shortfall,aren't people living in those massive condo towers paying property taxes? where is the money going?

[Gerrard]

Is there anything more provincial than nixing a vote for a candidate because of where he was born?

jeez.

[Gerrard]

In all seriousness how does the so-called financial capital of Canada, the largest city in the country, manage to rack up a $774 million budget shortfall,aren't people living in those massive condo towers paying property taxes? where is the money going?

After amalgamation certain services were unloaded onto the city. Transportation being one.

How did New York almost go bankrupt in the 70s? it happens.

But at least in New York people are required to pay a city income tax.

The city of Toronto (and other cities in Canada) do not have this power or option.

Blame the feds and the provincial governments.

[niwell]

In all seriousness how does the so-called financial capital of Canada, the largest city in the country, manage to rack up a $774 million budget shortfall,aren't people living in those massive condo towers paying property taxes? where is the money going?

First of all the $774 million figure is a fabrication. It is nowhere near that high. Beyond that a major factor is Ford's refusal to raise property taxes in-line with inflation (defacto tax freeze) and cut revenues gained through the vehicle registration tax.

Beyond this we'd have to get into a discussion about the lopsided municipal tax structure where the low rate of residential property taxes means that all the new condos aren't substantially adding to the tax base when servicing is accounted for. And downloading from the Province, where Toronto faces an undue burden of social costs in comparison with suburban municipalities.

[WhipperSnapper]

The people living in the massive condos have largely not begun to pay adequate property taxes but have required the city to spend a small fortune upgrading infrastructure eventhough these improvement are heavily subsidized through development fees.

There are many condo towers that have had people move in up to two years ago that still haven't had the units close. Even once the units have closed, it takes awhile for the base assessment of $30,000 to be adjusted to reflect market value.

[mr.John]

The people living in the massive condos have largely not begun to pay adequate property taxes but have required the city to spend a small fortune upgrading infrastructure eventhough these improvement are heavily subsidized through development fees.

There are many condo towers that have had people move in up to two years ago that still haven't had the units close. Even once the units have closed, it takes awhile for the base assessment of $30,000 to be adjusted to reflect market value.

yeah but this condo boom (including some major hotels) has been going on for over 5 years at least, and considering Toronto has probably the highest property taxes in the country (or at least one of the highest) the city should be seeing a huge increase in revenue, I can't believe all this construction hasn't benefited the city one bit

[caltrane74]

Toronto property tax was less than 1% in many areas. - I know when the city amalgamated, they had to equalize between the lower and higher rates in the core and suburbs.

[Calgarian]

I guess the positive on this is that in 3 years, you will probably have an actual intellegent person in the Mayors office.

This just makes me more glad we elected Nenshi, a guy who is actually qualified to be a mayor, instead of a loudmouth bully like Ford.

[mr.John]

Toronto property tax was less than 1% in many areas. - I know when the city amalgamated, they had to equalize between the lower and higher rates in the core and suburbs.

suppose I own a condo in the heart of DT Toronto which I paided $450,000 for, what kind of tax bill am I looking at (roughly)? and does it all go to the city

[Gerrard]

suppose I own a condo in the heart of DT Toronto which I paided $450,000 for, what kind of tax bill am I looking at (roughly)? and does it all go to the city

Probably $3500.00. And yes. Some goes to the city and a portion goes to education.

[niwell]

And the city provides services with those tax dollars. Especially for initial infrastructure as Whippersnapper mentioned.

I'm not sure about Canada-wide, but the City of Toronto has one of the lowest residential tax rates in the Province, and by far the lowest in the Greater Golden Horseshoe. The City makes a disproportionate percentage of revenue from commercial properties, for which the tax rate is the highest in the region. And while Toronto is having a mini office boom downtown, commercial/industrial areas in the outer parts of the 416 aren't doing so hot.

[Highinthesky]

Does Mr. John actually know anything about what he speaks or does he just throw a bunch of bull at the wall and see what sticks.

Stop taking the bait

[mr.John]

Probably $3500.00. And yes. Some goes to the city and a portion goes to education.

that's not too bad, I thought it would have been much higher( something like $5,000)

[mr.John]

Does Mr. John actually know anything about what he speaks or does he just throw a bunch of bull at the wall and see what sticks.

Stop taking the bait

What bait? I'm asking about property taxes in the Toronto area, the reason is because I've talked to a few people from TO and they give me wildly different numbers (none of them live downtown)

[someone123]

I'm not sure about Canada-wide, but the City of Toronto has one of the lowest residential tax rates in the Province, and by far the lowest in the Greater Golden Horseshoe. The City makes a disproportionate percentage of revenue from commercial properties, for which the tax rate is the highest in the region. And while Toronto is having a mini office boom downtown, commercial/industrial areas in the outer parts of the 416 aren't doing so hot.

This seems pretty common and is what you'd expect when far more voters are directly affected by residential rates. It is pretty problematic, particularly for a municipality like the City of Toronto that has to compete with office parks in neighbouring towns.

Fundamentally I think property tax is messed up and provides the wrong incentives. It would be better for municipalities to have access to other revenue sources like user fees and maybe income tax, although implementing any changes like that would be very difficult.

[niwell]

This seems pretty common and is what you'd expect when far more voters are directly affected by residential rates. It is pretty problematic, particularly for a municipality like the City of Toronto that has to compete with office parks in neighbouring towns.

Fundamentally I think property tax is messed up and provides the wrong incentives. It would be better for municipalities to have access to other revenue sources like user fees and maybe income tax, although implementing any changes like that would be very difficult.

Indeed. Or greater flexibility in implementation of tax rates. A rate that is completely appropriate in downtown Toronto may be completely innappropriate in an area across the street from Vaughan. In general though Canadian municipalities rely far too heavily on property tax as a source of revenue. The situation in large cities soouth of the border is significantly different (though not without a whole other set of problems).

[Cre47]

And folks in Toronto have to endure him for another three years. Hang on tight folks!

[Acajack]

the american thing just doesn't seem like something that is part of the torontonian self-ideal. i don't find the city's demeanour or character to be very american, even as its physical environment, to some degree, is. america and americans are louder and warmer. toronto is commonwealth high-capitalist, an example of convergent evolution.

other canadian cities feel more american to me, or at least like they could be more plausibly stitched into the american nation. halifax, oddly enough, is one.

Well, Toronto doesn't really feel like a city in the United States because it is not in the United States. But to me at least (and to many other people I would guess) it does feel like a Canadian city that kinda... sorta... a teensy bit... tries to be like an American city - without actually going all the way over the edge.

Just visiting and talking to people from across the country, Torontonians (and people in Southern Ontario) seem to be the Canadians who have the biggest "we Canadians built a better America" schtick going on, and from this flows the mentality that in Canada you can have all the "good stuff" about the U.S. (NFL, Chuck E. Cheese's Pizza Time Theatre, peanut butter, etc.) without all of the bad stuff (ghettos, slavery, rednecks, Tea Partiers, military boondoggles, crime, etc.).

[Rico Rommheim]

And folks in Toronto have to endure him for another three years. Hang on tight folks!

My heart bleeds. hehehe suckas....


Oh, wait...

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/images/bizphotos/435x290/200909/22/110409-gerald-tremblay.jpg

Robert Skinner, La Presse

[davidivivid]

:previous: Hahahaha

[someone123]

Indeed. Or greater flexibility in implementation of tax rates. A rate that is completely appropriate in downtown Toronto may be completely innappropriate in an area across the street from Vaughan. In general though Canadian municipalities rely far too heavily on property tax as a source of revenue. The situation in large cities soouth of the border is significantly different (though not without a whole other set of problems).

In Halifax there are three different rates -- urban, suburban, and rural. They are messed up unfortunately since they're based on the number of services provided without considering the quality or cost of services provided. Snow removal in a large lot subdivision for example is likely orders of magnitude more expensive than snow removal on a block with 1,000 residents in apartment towers.

On the one hand it's tempting to think that Toronto could gain from more amalgamation but on the other in Halifax the gains have been offset by the large number of suburban councillors. In practice they end up raiding the tax base of the core to build a bunch of very decentralized stuff. For a period of about 15 year post-amalgamation I believe literally nothing was built by the city downtown except a sewage treatment plant. During that time they've built a bunch of stuff like a $40M quadruple skating rink out in one suburban area.

[MolsonExport]

My heart bleeds. hehehe suckas....


Oh, wait...

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/images/bizphotos/435x290/200909/22/110409-gerald-tremblay.jpg

Robert Skinner, La Presse

There is worse....much, much worse:
http://images.lpcdn.ca/435x290/201103/11/298473-louise-harel.jpg
laPresse

[yaletown_fella]

I would have thought property tax cuts would be more sensible than scrapping the vehicle registration tax.
Rob Ford seems disorganized and lacks foresight regarding his promises. One could direct a sizable amount of the blame on his progress thus for the re-election of McGuinty and and the unsustainable and frightening spending at provincial level. Miller might have been an idiot socialist but the budget shortfalls were relatively minute. If Toronto is the gravy train Ontario is the gravy Titanic.

I'm a Ron Paul supporting Libertarian and I'm hardly impressed with Ford.

But then when you looked at the election alternatives, 'nuff said.

[samne]

I would have thought property tax cuts would be more sensible than scrapping the vehicle registration tax.
Rob Ford seems disorganized and lacks foresight regarding his promises. One could direct a sizeable amount of the blame his progress thus far for the re-election of McGuinty and the unsustainable and frightening spending at provincial level. Miller might have been a socialist but the budget shortfalls were relatively minute.

Regarding Miller: Thats because running a Municipal deficit is illegal under Ontario legislation.

[rousseau]

because canada isn't always what the media class pretends it is. there are a great many people who live, work and vote, and yet resemble, say, pierre trudeau to no noticeable degree.
This is true, and I deeply, deeply resent it. While I hardly expect my neighbours to be potential walk-on panelists for QI, I wish to fuck the yahoos in Stratford didn't cheer so lustily during the July 1st parade when the Dukes of Hazzard car makes its appearance and does its signature honk.

I mean...fuck.

And then Ford got elected. Again...fuck.

[rousseau]

Read More: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/canada/111108/toronto-tea-party-mayor-the-rocks

Fun irony when I clicked on the link:

Ads by Google
Ford Canada Official Site
Build & Price Your Ford Online Now And See Which Ford Is Right For You

[caltrane74]

This is true, and I deeply, deeply resent it. While I hardly expect my neighbours to be potential walk-on panelists for QI, I wish to fuck the yahoos in Stratford didn't cheer so lustily during the July 1st parade when the Dukes of Hazzard car makes its appearance and does its signature honk.


For real, we have enough hicks living here. - And they are given way to much representation on Election Day. That shit has got to change.

[MonkeyRonin]

Well, Toronto doesn't really feel like a city in the United States because it is not in the United States. But to me at least (and to many other people I would guess) it does feel like a Canadian city that kinda... sorta... a teensy bit... tries to be like an American city - without actually going all the way over the edge.


In most countries the largest city or cities typically transcend the national culture - London, New York, Berlin, whatever - certainly even Montreal within Quebec, and Toronto is no different in that sense. Its not so much an issue of multiculturalism or anything, but rather, that in these sorts of cities there is simply more of an "global" outlook - which is perhaps what you see as being "American" (and likewise, what draws the ire of so many Canadians). Of course, it could also be that having the American behemoth a few kilometres away (that, and the intertwining history & culture our two countries share) causes it to comprise a disproportionately large share of that outlook.

But going back to the mayor, I don't see how Rob Ford is supposed to represent "Americanized" Toronto anyway - as though only Americans have ever elected incompetent right-wing jackasses to public office. Toronto has a long history of terrible politicians (I think having party affiliations at the municipal level would help tremendously - but thats another discussion). Then again, its also had no shortage of forward-thinking, innovative progressives, either.

[someone123]

In most countries the largest city or cities typically transcend the national culture - London, New York, Berlin, whatever - certainly even Montreal within Quebec, and Toronto is no different in that sense. Its not so much an issue of multiculturalism or anything, but rather, that in these sorts of cities there is simply more of an "global" outlook - which is perhaps what you see as being "American" ...

But nobody seems to consider London or Berlin "American". In fact those cities are often held up as disctinctively British and German places, respectively, even if they have a blend of domestic and international culture. I don't think the "global city" view is 100% wrong but it is an overly flattering interpretation of Toronto's relative lack of a sense of place. A better explanation is that it used to be a much smaller city and hasn't been around for very long so its local culture has been subsumed.

Like it or not, Ontario's also always had close ties to the US. In that sense it is somewhat American.

[kool maudit]

the "transcending canada" thing is as canadian as all the rest of our claims against provincialism (our great fear, for colonial reasons). montreal says it too. that's not it.

if you know america, i mean, if you have real thing for that country, travel around there a lot (and not just new york, but like winston-salem and hartford and indio and memphis etc.), talk to the people... you instantly recognize that toronto isn't it.

it's a great thing, but it's not america. it's just wired differently. chimps and bonobos. i don't know how else to put it.

[TheMaxMan]

Yeah... I guess Toronto might look and feel American to fresh Euro or Asian tourists, but that's where it stops - it's 'American' only in the shallowest of comparisons.

For better or worse, Toronto's got its own vibe. It ain't Chicago or NY or LA or any other American city... nor is it Montreal or Vancouver, for that matter. But it's definitely a vibrant Canadian city.

[yaletown_fella]

I don't get why people label Ford a redneck seeing as prior to being elected, he was wealthier than 90% of SSP users. Thus far he's proven to be a dishonest, disorganized and unproductive politician. The superficial elements such as character, charisma, and background are completely irrelevant to me. That's where a lot of the left media focus is sadly.

[kool maudit]

commonwealth high-capitalist:

http://mariavandenburg.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/2170539-brunswick_street_looking_south-fitzroy.jpg

http://www.sydney-traveltips.com/pics/king-street-sydney.jpg

it may look "american" to the refuser of distinctions... but it ain't.

[kool maudit]

I don't get why people label Ford a redneck seeing as prior to being elected, he was wealthier than 90% of SSP users.






redneck doesn't mean poor. in the modern sense, even very wealthy, say, pool supply store owners can be rednecks.

they tend to have things like jet skis, and bookshelves full of motor trend magazines and souvenir baseballs.

you have to expand your notion of snobbery -- it's a magnificently broad playing field!

[TheMaxMan]

I don't get why people label Ford a redneck seeing as prior to being elected, he was wealthier than 90% of SSP users. Thus far he's proven to be a dishonest, disorganized and unproductive politician. The superficial elements such as character, charisma, and background are completely irrelevant to me. That's where a lot of the left media focus is sadly.

You can be a redneck tycoon. It's no problem at all.

The right-wing media is every bit as shallow about politicians/personalities/celebrities.

[vid]

I wonder if Toronto's similarities to the United States have anything to do with the city's proximity to that country?

Nah, they're just a bunch of New York wannabes. But not us! Not Mycity!

:frog:

[MonkeyRonin]

But nobody seems to consider London or Berlin "American". In fact those cities are often held up as disctinctively British and German places, respectively, even if they have a blend of domestic and international culture.

It could certainly be argued that they're more "American" than Liverpool or Bristol or Munich or Dresden (but not to the extent that Toronto is, of course). Though, then we start getting into more troublesome arguments of just what "American" is. But they certainly aren't very representative of their national culture, that much is for sure - they're quite different from anywhere else in their respective countries, thats basically the point.


Like it or not, Ontario's also always had close ties to the US. In that sense it is somewhat American.

As I said, Canada as a whole has always been intertwined with the US. That we are two different countries is more a matter of historical chance than any conscious cultural distinctions leading to become two nations - and that goes for Quebec too. If it weren't for the repressive actions of American revolutionary David Wooster, it could very well have become a part of the US.

That we have a largely shared culture is not a bad thing nor does is make any less of Canada.

[Mister F]

^^:haha:

Yes, the Bill's play one regular season game a year in Toronto.
NFL teams have also played in London and Mexico City, to much fuller stadiums no less. They must be wannabe American too! :P

What bait? I'm asking about property taxes in the Toronto area, the reason is because I've talked to a few people from TO and they give me wildly different numbers (none of them live downtown)
Try going right to the source. The City of Toronto has all its property tax rates on its website.

In most countries the largest city or cities typically transcend the national culture - London, New York, Berlin, whatever - certainly even Montreal within Quebec, and Toronto is no different in that sense. Its not so much an issue of multiculturalism or anything, but rather, that in these sorts of cities there is simply more of an "global" outlook - which is perhaps what you see as being "American" (and likewise, what draws the ire of so many Canadians). Of course, it could also be that having the American behemoth a few kilometres away (that, and the intertwining history & culture our two countries share) causes it to comprise a disproportionately large share of that outlook.
Ironically, there are plenty of Americans that consider New York to be the most un-American place in the US.

But nobody seems to consider London or Berlin "American". In fact those cities are often held up as disctinctively British and German places, respectively, even if they have a blend of domestic and international culture. I don't think the "global city" view is 100% wrong but it is an overly flattering interpretation of Toronto's relative lack of a sense of place. A better explanation is that it used to be a much smaller city and hasn't been around for very long so its local culture has been subsumed.

Like it or not, Ontario's also always had close ties to the US. In that sense it is somewhat American.
Close ties or not, the first large scale settlement of Ontario was by people who defined themselves as not being American. You may not see it because you've trained yourself to look at Ontario in a certain way, but the differences when you cross the border are stark. Anyway re: London being "American", last time I checked it wasn't 130 km from America. But even still, I'm sure you could find lots of people in Yorkshire or Wales who'd say it is pretty American.

[someone123]

Isn't it a bit odd to get upset at somebody for pointing out that a place sort of has characteristic X and then implicitly agree by saying "well, what do you expect?"

It's fine to point out that the Loyalists self-identified as non-Americans but they were trapped by their own cultural experiences, which were overwhelmingly limited to what is now the US. They were incapable of constructing a culture as distinct from US culture as, say, Indian culture was back then. Only from a very parochial perspective were they dramatically different. To consider the two cultures opposites you'd have to completely ignore the rest of the planet.

I never said that Toronto is identical to a US city. It is not. I've been to many parts of Canada and the US and many differences are immediately apparent. But so are lots of similarities, despite the fact that we're not supposed to talk about them because some Canadians wish their own culture were more exotic.

[Innsertnamehere]

edit

[Gerrard]

Berlin actually does feel quite "American" -in comparison to other European capitals (many reasons why and mitigating factors).

I'm sure if Toronto had maintained its more colonial attributes people would be saying it felt like an English burg.

In the end there's a lot of focus on defining the city from elsewhere in the nation (I suppose it really is that alien to some). Slightly amusing considering the people that actually live here really don't spend all that much time doing it themselves.

I'm also not so sure "American" is an insult. I doubt much people in Montreal or San Francisco are all that mortified when someone says those cities feel "European" -anymore I imagine than Berliners or Londoners would be all that insulted if you said their cities felt unlike their respective nations.

The Great Lakes is a REGION, despite imaginary borders, and thus will share many cultural similarities while at the same time maintaining a certain distinctiveness from each other.

Now back to Mayor Cheeseburger...

[MolsonExport]

http://wdjohnson.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/mayor_mccheese.jpg

[Waterlooson]

Re: teaparty - Canada was actually at the forefront of this sort of movement in the 90s

it was just called the Reform Party.

People assume Canadians are taking their cues from an American movement but in reality it's just addled memories and media saturation.

either way they're just branch arms of elitists masquerading as populists.

As for Ford, I'm actually surprised how fast the tide turned against him. He and his handlers really misjudged his popularity and the reasons for his election -namely poor alternative candidates. Miller would have won again had he run.

I don't see how the Reform Party had very much in common with the Tea Party. :shrug:

The Reform Party's main purpose was about "the West wants in".

[ue]

Toronto and Southern Ontario are perhaps more "Americanized" than other parts of Canada in very miniscule ways (though Toronto is definitely not American, it is in fact very Canadian, and rightly so) due to that aforementioned "global mindedness." Why America as the main international influence over Japan or Namibia? Because it is closest! With that same logic, it would be comparing apples to oranges when comparing the "American-ness" of Toronto vs Berlin. A more apt comparison with Berlin is how Polish or French or Scandinavian or Czech influenced it is. Berlin is a lot farther from the U.S. and doesn't even speak the same language.

[flar]

I grew up right on the border, raised on Detroit media. My elementary school friends got guns for their birthdays. Heard all kinds of stuff about George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. Vaguely remember hearing the name Sir John A. Macdonald. Who the fuck are Chilliwack and Trooper? Amazingly, we didn't have that nasally Michigan accent. London (Ont.) and Toronto always seemed noticeably Canadian to me.

[Rico Rommheim]

your school friends got GUNS for their birthdays? Jesus.

[Acajack]

Berlin actually does feel quite "American" -in comparison to other European capitals (many reasons why and mitigating factors).

I'm sure if Toronto had maintained its more colonial attributes people would be saying it felt like an English burg.

In the end there's a lot of focus on defining the city from elsewhere in the nation (I suppose it really is that alien to some). Slightly amusing considering the people that actually live here really don't spend all that much time doing it themselves.

I'm also not so sure "American" is an insult. I doubt much people in Montreal or San Francisco are all that mortified when someone says those cities feel "European" -anymore I imagine than Berliners or Londoners would be all that insulted if you said their cities felt unlike their respective nations.

The Great Lakes is a REGION, despite imaginary borders, and thus will share many cultural similarities while at the same time maintaining a certain distinctiveness from each other.

Now back to Mayor Cheeseburger...

I know some people will argue until they are blue in the face that Toronto has a civic culture that is every bit as unique as that of Montreal or Boston, but I and others who disagree would counter that, for urban watchers like us, Toronto is a very exciting place to observe in that, for an established city of its size that is the metropolis of a country, it's about the closest thing you can find to a clean slate. With few exceptions (the Leafs - and even then, more Torontonians than you might think are indifferent to hockey), everything is up for grabs.

Now I know that there are generally two views out there and that mine falls in between the two: one is that if Toronto was to have a civic culture it would have one by now and that it now too late because the imported American stuff doubled with the multicultural elements have occupied all the space. The second of course is that Toronto does have its own strong civic culture and that the naysayers are either 1) insecure Torontonians or 2) jealous fellow Canadians who are envious of Toronto.

[Acajack]

I'm also not so sure "American" is an insult. ...

Good point.

[Acajack]

But nobody seems to consider London or Berlin "American". In fact those cities are often held up as disctinctively British and German places, respectively, even if they have a blend of domestic and international culture.

I am familiar with many large cities and Toronto stands out for its indifference to the national culture of the country of which it is the metropolis. Indifference to Canadian culture (and stated preference for U.S. alternatives) is a phenomenon you find in most parts of Canada, but Toronto takes it to a whole other level.

[Acajack]

I don't think the "global city" view is 100% wrong but it is an overly flattering interpretation of Toronto's relative lack of a sense of place. .

I could not agree more. The cultural diet of your average Torontonian is not really that different from that of people in Calgary or even Chicago. It's not as if Bangledeshi movies topped the box office there or Portuguese novels were the best-sellers, while the rest of us watch Bruce Willis and read Danielle Steel.

Sure, there are large immigrant communities which stay in tune with their homeland cultures for a few generations, but this is not unique to Toronto, and does not really affect someone from Toronto named John Smith (or Rob Ford) and make them dramatically culturally different from the rest of us.

[Gerrard]

I don't see how the Reform Party had very much in common with the Tea Party. :shrug:

The Reform Party's main purpose was about "the West wants in".

It was a populist movement. They're very similar.

[MonkeyRonin]

Now I know that there are generally two views out there and that mine falls in between the two: one is that if Toronto was to have a civic culture it would have one by now and that it now too late because the imported American stuff doubled with the multicultural elements have occupied all the space. The second of course is that Toronto does have its own strong civic culture and that the naysayers are either 1) insecure Torontonians or 2) jealous fellow Canadians who are envious of Toronto.

I know we've had this discussion before (goddamn, is the Toronto culture thing a daily discussion in this place?), but neither are really true. Look back 50+ years and Toronto most certainly had its own civic culture - not necessarily a unique one, but nonetheless a cultured shared throughout the city. Presently, the city is in a state of change. This means that there is no underlying unifying culture (though it also doesn't mean there will never be one), but there are still several strong local cultures within that. Having an extended period of rapid change and development causing radical changes to a culture is nothing new or unique to Toronto.


Sure, there are large immigrant communities which stay in tune with their homeland cultures for a few generations, but this is not unique to Toronto, and does not really affect someone from Toronto named John Smith (or Rob Ford) and make them dramatically culturally different from the rest of us.

I heartily disagree. The cultures derived from those immigrant communities extend beyond their immediate ethnic community for "a few generations", and go much deeper than watching movies from those countries. And I'd also disagree that its not unique to Toronto - certainly multiculturalism exists elsewhere, but rarely to the same extent (maybe New York and London). People growing up here are so heavily exposed to a multitude of various cultures on a personal level (thats the important part) that at least a few of them just naturally become a part of our world view, in addition to a Canadian one and whatever ancestral culture we have. A sort of inherent familiarity with certain other far-flung parts of the world. I'm not explaining this idea very well, but hopefully you get the basic gist of it.

The idea that Toronto is basically got rural, white Southern Ontario with a bunch of folks from India and Jamaica and Portugal doing their thing around them is...very inaccurate.

[Gerrard]

I really don't think Toronto is indifferent to Canadian culture especially considering so much of what we define as Canadian culture is actually produced within the city itself. To say so, is rather simplistic. But your view seems less shaped by actual experience and more by what you've read and other assorted anecdotal evidence.

You'd also have to define Canadian culture which, frankly, is rather difficult.

You might be right in one aspect however that Torontonians do seem rather indifferent to the nation they live in outside of their region because I can't imagine any of us spending time discussing the finer points of what makes Montreal, Calgary or Vancouver etc. tick.

Maybe considering this topic arises every time there's an unrelated thread about Toronto the admins might make a sticky where Canadians from outside Toronto can post their opinions and misconceptions of Toronto and Torontonians can respond in kind for the purposes of education and greater cultural understanding.

I should also add that lacking that overall sense of place isn't necessarily a bad thing either. It doesn't make people any less anchored, attached, homesick or make them feel they're lacking a sense of community. The neighborhoods of the city tend to make up for this lack of civic cohesion.

[Mister F]

I never said that Toronto is identical to a US city. It is not. I've been to many parts of Canada and the US and many differences are immediately apparent. But so are lots of similarities, despite the fact that we're not supposed to talk about them because some Canadians wish their own culture were more exotic.
Huh? I don't know how you got any of that out of my post. You're projecting.

I could not agree more. The cultural diet of your average Torontonian is not really that different from that of people in Calgary or even Chicago. It's not as if Bangledeshi movies topped the box office there or Portuguese novels were the best-sellers, while the rest of us watch Bruce Willis and read Danielle Steel.

Sure, there are large immigrant communities which stay in tune with their homeland cultures for a few generations, but this is not unique to Toronto, and does not really affect someone from Toronto named John Smith (or Rob Ford) and make them dramatically culturally different from the rest of us.
Gotta love the subtle digs...the minimizing Toronto culture...lol. Is it that hard to imagine that Toronto has different cultural offerings from other cities, and richer culture than smaller cities?

You'd also have to define Canadian culture which, frankly, is rather difficult.
Canada is similar to the US in the same way that Austria is similar to Germany or Chile to Argentina. There's nothing wrong with that and no reason to constantly navel gaze about how to define ourselves.

[Waterlooson]

It was a populist movement. They're very similar.

Sure, they're both populist movements... but that's about it. The central theme of the Reform Party regarded western alienation... and not conservative values... which could already be had by way of the PC Party of Canada. The Tea Party has nothing to do with a number of states feeling excluded from the decision making process of the US Federal Government... which was what the Reform Party was all about and why it was formed. The Reform Party's political reform policies existed to ameliorate this sense of western alienation.

[kool maudit]

this is becoming a series of increasingly haughty, sniffy, "well, interesting you should say that" sort of accusations of provincialness - that great bugbear of colonial people everywhere. good old Canada.

[someone123]

Part of the problem is that this discussion is so vague that it never goes anywhere. And even if somebody were to come up with rock-solid logic I'm not sure it would overcome the neurosis at play here.

For the record I don't consider it an insult to call a place "American". American culture has quite a few positive traits and is in some ways better than Canadian or European culture. Americans tend to be a lot more entrepreneurial, for example.

[MonkeyRonin]

Part of the problem is that this discussion is so vague that it never goes anywhere.


Well yeah, we're talking about culture here...something rather intangible and highly subjective. Can't quite pull up any sort of data or numbers to "prove" anything.

[armorand93]

Part of the problem is that this discussion is so vague that it never goes anywhere. And even if somebody were to come up with rock-solid logic I'm not sure it would overcome the neurosis at play here.

For the record I don't consider it an insult to call a place "American". American culture has quite a few positive traits and is in some ways better than Canadian or European culture. Americans tend to be a lot more entrepreneurial, for example.

- Using up 25% of the world resources
- Screwing up ANY chance for me to get a full-time job cause of their stupid banking system and fractured government
- The cultural trait to fork out $50,000 to have a child in a hospital, or repair a stab wound
- 11,000 die annually from gun crimes, which reminds me, you don't need an AK-47 to kill deer...
- Blaming everything on somebody (Columbine = Manson, Westboro "Bullshit" Baptist Church, etc)

I could go on, but you get the idea guys

[jlousa]

Just to touch on how a city with a residential condo boom can get into financial trouble, it's quite easy.
Residential property taxes do not come even close to covering the cost of services provided to them, in fact they pay only about half the costs. Commercial property taxes on the other hand pay over and above the cost of services they consume leading to a subsidy for residents.
So when you have a condo boom especially one that displaces commercial properties, the end result is that the city is worse off financially.
The more residential units that come on stream w/o an equilibrating ratio of commercial spaces the worse the problem gets.
The only way to stop that is by doubling residential property taxes. Anyone think that will fly with the public?

[Gerrard]

2 things.

Reading the Globe this morning discovered that Toronto is the least liked city in Canada by Canadians. No surprise -surely the reasons are nebulous and probably have more to do with media concentration and general fame or infamy.

The other -and back to the original subject: there's a pic attached to a story about Mayor Ford (which incidentally has little to do with the story) in the Star and he's shown stuffing his big maw with a bag of chips. So yeah, the bloom is off of that rose.

[Gerrard]

Just to touch on how a city with a residential condo boom can get into financial trouble, it's quite easy.
Residential property taxes do not come even close to covering the cost of services provided to them, in fact they pay only about half the costs. Commercial property taxes on the other hand pay over and above the cost of services they consume leading to a subsidy for residents.
So when you have a condo boom especially one that displaces commercial properties, the end result is that the city is worse off financially.
The more residential units that come on stream w/o an equilibrating ratio of commercial spaces the worse the problem gets.
The only way to stop that is by doubling residential property taxes. Anyone think that will fly with the public?

I sort of agree with you. And I don't necessarily want to pay more taxes but also don't think the burden of city revenue should necessarily fall on homeowners / property owners either.

A more fair across the board city income tax for residents would make up revenue shortfalls which is increasingly important in a city that is becoming filled with renters rather than owners.

I also don't necessarily think that the condo boom will end anytime soon. With a 1.5% vacancy rate people need places to live and new rental only units aren't being built at all.

[Acajack]

I really don't think Toronto is indifferent to Canadian culture especially considering so much of what we define as Canadian culture is actually produced within the city itself. To say so, is rather simplistic. But your view seems less shaped by actual experience and more by what you've read and other assorted anecdotal evidence.



What makes you think I have not spent plenty of time in Toronto talking with Torontonians?

[Acajack]

Presently, the city is in a state of change. This means that there is no underlying unifying culture (though it also doesn't mean there will never be one), but there are still several strong local cultures within that. Having an extended period of rapid change and development causing radical changes to a culture is nothing new or unique to Toronto.




All of which makes Toronto a very exciting place to observe at the moment, as I said earlier. (But everyone seems to have missed that point.)

[mr.John]

I sort of agree with you. And I don't necessarily want to pay more taxes but also don't think the burden of city revenue should necessarily fall on homeowners / property owners either.

A more fair across the board city income tax for residents would make up revenue shortfalls which is increasingly important in a city that is becoming filled with renters rather than owners.

I also don't necessarily think that the condo boom will end anytime soon. With a 1.5% vacancy rate people need places to live and new rental only units aren't being built at all.

I don't think that's accurate because many condo owners are actually renting out their units with the hope of flipping them a few years down the road, they're treating them as an investment not as homes

[Gerrard]

Sure, they're both populist movements... but that's about it. The central theme of the Reform Party regarded western alienation... and not conservative values... which could already be had by way of the PC Party of Canada. The Tea Party has nothing to do with a number of states feeling excluded from the decision making process of the US Federal Government... which was what the Reform Party was all about and why it was formed. The Reform Party's political reform policies existed to ameliorate this sense of western alienation.

I'm not so sure the Tea party's origins reflected Conservative Values. It was more of a Libertarian movement and again came from a sense of voter alienation as well (those damn Eastern Elites!).

I'm not so sure the Tea Party even knew what it was until the media helped shape it. It's really a media created movement that has now been co-opted by the more conservative elements of the Republican Party and the anyone but a black man for President set.

Frankly it was quite interesting to see how the media handled and handles the Occupy Movement versus the Tea Party movement -essential painting the Occupiers as fringe radicals and lending very little legitimacy to their movement and instead focusing on the likelihood of rioting.

anyway my original point was, turns to the left and right in Canada are nothing new and to brand Ford as a Tea Party Mayor is a bit ridiculous and and opportunistic way of using the language of the day.

He was really only voted Mayor because the other candidates kinda stunk and he promised to cut taxes and fees. There wasn't any real shift in the thinking of voters.

Miller would have won again had he run and John Tory would have certainly won had he run.

[Acajack]

Gotta love the subtle digs...the minimizing Toronto culture...lol. Is it that hard to imagine that Toronto has different cultural offerings from other cities, and richer culture than smaller cities?


Toronto has way more cultural offerings than smaller cities because 10-20% of Toronto's population (those who might partake in non-mainstream culture) is a way bigger market than 10-20% of the population of Flin Flon.

I have extended family born and raised in places across Canada ranging from villages with a population of 114 to the heart of The Big Smoke. Rubbing shoulders with them and their friends and neighbours has shattered my views of culturally sophisticated city slickers. Much of the "mainstream" is quite similar in most places these days regardless of population, and the reason that it might appear that more Torontonians like foreign cinema or opera is because there are simply more Torontonians than Cape Bretoners in sheer numbers.

This is not just true of Torontonians, but also of Montrealers, New Yorkers, Parisians, etc.

The only areas where I find there is a big difference in favour of big cities is in fashion and exposure to more international cuisines.

[Acajack]

I heartily disagree. The cultures derived from those immigrant communities extend beyond their immediate ethnic community for "a few generations", and go much deeper than watching movies from those countries. And I'd also disagree that its not unique to Toronto - certainly multiculturalism exists elsewhere, but rarely to the same extent (maybe New York and London). People growing up here are so heavily exposed to a multitude of various cultures on a personal level (thats the important part) that at least a few of them just naturally become a part of our world view, in addition to a Canadian one and whatever ancestral culture we have. A sort of inherent familiarity with certain other far-flung parts of the world. I'm not explaining this idea very well, but hopefully you get the basic gist of it.

The idea that Toronto is basically got rural, white Southern Ontario with a bunch of folks from India and Jamaica and Portugal doing their thing around them is...very inaccurate.

Then how do you explain Rob Ford? I have met scores of Torontonians who appear to be exactly like him culturally. He is roughly the same age as me and has never lived anywhere else but Toronto as far as I know. The city has been incredibly diverse throughout his lifetime, yet none of it has seemed to rub off on him.

Now, Mr. Ford is not really my style but what I am trying to say is not that there is anything fundamentally wrong with the way he is. But please people don't pretend that people like Rob Ford don't exist in large numbers in Toronto when the friggin' prototype of the species is sitting in the bloody mayor's chair!

[Gerrard]

Toronto has way more cultural offerings than smaller cities because 10-20% of Toronto's population (those who might partake in non-mainstream culture) is a way bigger market than 10-20% of the population of Flin Flon.

I have extended family born and raised in places across Canada ranging from villages with a population of 114 to the heart of The Big Smoke. Rubbing shoulders with them and their friends and neighbours has shattered my views of culturally sophisticated city slickers. Much of the "mainstream" is quite similar in most places these days regardless of population, and the reason that it might appear that more Torontonians like foreign cinema or opera is because there are simply more Torontonians than Cape Bretoners in sheer numbers.

This is not just true of Torontonians, but also of Montrealers, New Yorkers, Parisians, etc.

The only areas where I find there is a big difference in favour of big cities is in fashion and exposure to more international cuisines.

Well the internet has pretty much laid waste to the idea that one has to be a certain place to experience certain cultural offerings.

There is a difference however in larger centers where you find outgrowths of new culture and movements (if there are any left). They are still the incubators of new culture versus the appetite for it.

[Gerrard]

Then how do you explain Rob Ford? I have met scores of Torontonians who appear to be exactly like him culturally. He is roughly the same age as me and has never lived anywhere else but Toronto as far as I know. The city has been incredibly diverse throughout his lifetime, yet none of it has seemed to rub off on him.

Now, Mr. Ford is not really my style but what I am trying to say is not that there is anything fundamentally wrong with the way he is. But please people don't pretend that people like Rob Ford don't exist in large numbers in Toronto when the friggin' prototype of the species is sitting in the bloody mayor's chair!

Because, Etobicoke isn't anything like Toronto anymore than Roncesvalles Village is like the Beach is like Leslieville is like Rosedale or Yorkville or Moss Park or East York is like Scarborough.

You can live in the city of Toronto and many people do and their only exposure to say downtown is the Santa Claus Parade or to see the Xmas window at the Bay.

People are very attached to their neighborhoods here.

[Bigtime]

I thought this thread was us laughing at Rob Ford, what happened?

[freeweed]

Reading the Globe this morning discovered that Toronto is the least liked city in Canada by Canadians. No surprise -surely the reasons are nebulous and probably have more to do with media concentration and general fame or infamy.

"Discovered"? This is news to you? ;)

Not sure if this applies to every country on Earth, but it seems obvious given the way we are as a country. Toronto is the biggest city, so naturally it gets the most dislike. And as a result of being the biggest city (and biggest extended metro area, by far) - Torontonians on average really don't have much need to look outside their area. Toronto (the horseshoe, really) is almost a self-contained nation for all practical purposes to the average person. It's astounding how many people I've met over the years who've hardly left the area - they maybe have been to Mexico during the winter, but they've never seen 95% of their own country. I've had countless discussions over the years about where the geographical centre of the country is, and it's astounding how many from the GTA don't actually have a clue. But they don't really need to know.

It's just what happens when you have so damn much stuff concentrated in a small area. The few Manhattanites I know are like this too, although I don't know that NYC gets quite the dislike in the US.

[jmt18325]

Oh yeah, New York does.

[isaidso]

Isn't Tea Party a US political movement? Ford being right wing doesn't make him a Tea Party mayor, it makes him a Conservative. People are watching too move US television. This is Canada. :cool:

[MonkeyRonin]

All of which makes Toronto a very exciting place to observe at the moment, as I said earlier. (But everyone seems to have missed that point.)

I know, its an accurate assessment of the current situation, but you also said "if Toronto was to have a civic culture it would have one by now and that it now too late because..." to which I was disagreeing, being that it has had one, and could potentially have one again in the future.


Then how do you explain Rob Ford? I have met scores of Torontonians who appear to be exactly like him culturally. He is roughly the same age as me and has never lived anywhere else but Toronto as far as I know. The city has been incredibly diverse throughout his lifetime, yet none of it has seemed to rub off on him.

Now, Mr. Ford is not really my style but what I am trying to say is not that there is anything fundamentally wrong with the way he is. But please people don't pretend that people like Rob Ford don't exist in large numbers in Toronto when the friggin' prototype of the species is sitting in the bloody mayor's chair!

Rob Ford grew up in 1960s and 70s Etobicoke - quite a different world from the rest of the city in more recent decades (central Etobicoke is still a really different world mind you, the last remaining bit of white-bred suburbia left in the city). Keep in mind I'm talking from the perspective of the <30 crowd. The Rob Ford archetype is one of the aging conservative suburban white guy - one that still exists, but is rapidly disappearing. And of course, we're talking about 2.5 million people here, obviously not every single one of them is going to have had the exact same experiences and opinions and personality.

[Ramako]

This talk of the election of Rob Ford being proof of a large white, culturally inept or "red-neck" population of Toronto couldn't be more off-base. In reality, a whole lot of immigrants voted for Ford, especially those living in the suburbs. Believe it or not, immigrants often care more about things like taxes and the quality of city services than building bike lanes or arts funding. Some of the most conservative people I know are immigrants.

The real divide, regardless of a person's race or origin, was between the suburbs and the downtown. The suburban voters tend to see the city as little more than a means to an end, are focussed only on their taxes and their commute times, and are generally disinterested in investing back into the city.

[someone123]

This talk of the election of Rob Ford being proof of a large white, culturally inept or "red-neck" population of Toronto couldn't be more off-base. In reality, a whole lot of immigrants voted for Ford, especially those living in the suburbs. Believe it or not, immigrants often care more about things like taxes and the quality of city services than building bike lanes or arts funding. Some of the most conservative people I know are immigrants.

So based on what I've read in this thread Rob Ford won because of money and the ethnic vote. :)

The same phenomenon exists in the Vancouver area. Many immigrant groups seem to be quite a bit more conservative than the rest of the general population and they often end up voting for seemingly unlikely candidates simply because they are aligned on some key issues. Certainly there are lots of people in municipal politics who think they only care about the residential tax rate for example.

[softee]

Rob Ford got 47% of the popular vote, so overall more Torontonians (including many in the former boroughs) voted against him than for him.

[vid]

A more fair across the board city income tax for residents would make up revenue shortfalls which is increasingly important in a city that is becoming filled with renters rather than owners.

This argument comes up all the time and I can't help but laugh.

How do you think my landlord pays the property taxes for the building my rented apartment is located in? Money doesn't just float to his bank account from some source that isn't a tenant!

Here is another one for you: the small business that employs me rents one of the buildings it is located in. Should it be charged a corporate income tax by the city in addition to the property taxes that it pays indirectly through rent to its landlord?

Honestly, when you make the argument that renters don't pay taxes, you're really making the argument that "property owners that rent out units in their buildings don't pay taxes". In reality, they're the biggest tax payers of all. And you're proposing more taxes on top of their source of income?

[Gerrard]

This argument comes up all the time and I can't help but laugh.

How do you think my landlord pays the property taxes for the building my rented apartment is located in? Money doesn't just float to his bank account from some source that isn't a tenant!

Here is another one for you: the small business that employs me rents one of the buildings it is located in. Should it be charged a corporate income tax by the city in addition to the property taxes that it pays indirectly through rent to its landlord?

Honestly, when you make the argument that renters don't pay taxes, you're really making the argument that "property owners that rent out units in their buildings don't pay taxes". In reality, they're the biggest tax payers of all. And you're proposing more taxes on top of their source of income?

In a city like Toronto which is increasingly burdened with costs that the province won't contribute to, yes.

[osmo]

In all seriousness how does the so-called financial capital of Canada, the largest city in the country, manage to rack up a $774 million budget shortfall,aren't people living in those massive condo towers paying property taxes? where is the money going?

You will get deficits if you have no ability to raise revenues. Toronto was built to manage and fund its old interior, where service delivery was quite cheap. Toronto is also the only city I can think of which is the biggest center whiten its country yet has no special administrative or financial powers. Every developed nation has some type of situation set up where its largest metro can prosper and grow.

Amalgamation and downloading of services has a lot to do with it. People forget (or don't like to acknowledge ) how large Toronto is. It has the 6th largest budget in the Country after Ottawa and some provinces.

Ford is a moron because he plays ideology in a municipal setting where it has no purpose. His implosion is not surprising what is surprising is how much little noise the populace has made, they rumble from time to time but maybe its still quite early but I suspect by year 3 they will demand he steps down.