[go_leafs_go02]

Thumbs up to London being the first City in Canada to successful take down the tent city found in Victoria Park.

All tents were removed last night by London Police around 1:30 AM and without any issue, and followed with a 4.5 hour standoff with Police until 6 AM.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2011/11/09/18944956.html#/news/london/2011/11/09/pf-18944956.html'

[haljackey]

Good idea for a thread!

So far I'm very pleased with London's 'Occupy' movement. No violence whatsoever! That is a huge positive compared to other cities around the country and across the globe.

While they're now out of the park, they'll still be around. They might even try move back there at a later date (maybe after Remembrance Day), but I'm sure it will be met with some resistance.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Thumbs up to London being the first City in Canada to successful take down the tent city found in Victoria Park.
+1

They said their peace, and were evicted without incident or injuries (or death like Vancouver) which is very commendable. The City and LPS should also be proud the first city to enforce the law, end the occupation and do it without violence!

I don't think when Vancouver or Toronto movements are evicted that it'll be a as peaceful. Unfortunately their occupys are full of drug addicts and hooligans which makes their actions lose legitimacy to the public. As well they have a very incoherent message, so its not raising awareness on the perceived economic/social inequalities just a bunch of squatters taking up prime public land.

I don't know what London (or other cities) going to do in the future, given winter is around the corner which will show whose really dedicated. There allowed to be there just not overnight which is a very fair.

[go_leafs_go02]

Haha.

Protesters are calling for Mayor Fontana's resignation.

What a joke these people are. I'm a student, deeply in debt, but no way do I ever feel entitled to $$$ for literally free....

[manny_santos]

I have zero time for these protesters. There are much, much bigger things in our world to be worried about. Yes, there are problems, but instead of sitting around complaining about them.

Besides, these groups have no cohesive raison-d'être, other than a slogan. It's just an excuse to protest.

[Snark]

Question for all of those protest critics under30:

1) when do you expect to graduate?
2) what is your chosen vocation?
3) what are your expected earnings in year (1) of post-secondary employment, and year (5)?

[K85]

I'm 26. I assume you mean those who don't like the protestors.

1) when do you expect to graduate? did so in 2007, took me 9 months to find a job
2) what is your chosen vocation? child and youth worker
3) what are your expected earnings in year (1) of post-secondary employment, and year (5)? minimum wage, and minimum wage again. I work cuz I need to and i love my job.

[Wharn]

1) when do you expect to graduate? 2013.
2) what is your chosen vocation? Accounting.
3) what are your expected earnings in year (1) of post-secondary employment, and year (5)? Year 1? Something pathetic. $20,000 if I'm lucky. Year 5? Really depends. If I can get my CA designation then from what I've been told I can push north of $50,000 pretty quickly. From there it's a long haul to the top. Young professionals, despite what people may think, are ruthlessly exploited. You can actually make way more doing a trade, but I'm far too impatient for that kind of work.

Now what exactly is the point of this exercise?

[new age]

I find it funny how many people that complained about the equity bank bailout, and the auto bailout now are the same people complaining about the Occupy Protests. Bitching, and complaining about it was fine, but camping in a park well you do it is an outrage. The thing that worries me the most is the talk of who has the right to express opinions of discontent and, so on, rings of neo fascism.

I may not be one to camp out in the park, but they worry me far less then what seems to be a growing wave of intolerance and hatred for anyone that stands/speaks out.

[MrSlippery519]

I have zero time for these protesters. There are much, much bigger things in our world to be worried about. Yes, there are problems, but instead of sitting around complaining about them.

Besides, these groups have no cohesive raison-d'être, other than a slogan. It's just an excuse to protest.

Well said I completely agree, that is really their main issue. Too many people with different views about what they are really looking to accomplish means in the end nothing is going to change.

Not that I am on their side however all of the cities would have been smart to put a leader in charge and only that person would speak to the media. The large majority of the protesters have no clue what they are even their for.

Glad London did something about it.

[go_leafs_go02]

Question for all of those protest critics under30:

1) when do you expect to graduate?
2) what is your chosen vocation?
3) what are your expected earnings in year (1) of post-secondary employment, and year (5)?

To answer:

1) December 2011
2) Engineering in Transportation
3) 65 - 80K for year 1. year 5, probably add 10K to those values.

Oh, and I'm 23.

[haljackey]

I'll do this too

Question for all of those protest critics under30:

1) when do you expect to graduate?
2) what is your chosen vocation?
3) what are your expected earnings in year (1) of post-secondary employment, and year (5)?

1. Hopefully 2012, if not 2013
2. Geography, Urban Development, Geographic Information Science, Urban Planning
3. I'll take whatever I can get :P

I'm 22.

[Simpseatles]

Question for all of those protest critics under30:

1) when do you expect to graduate?
2) what is your chosen vocation?
3) what are your expected earnings in year (1) of post-secondary employment, and year (5)?

1) I'll be graduating High Shool in 2013 (Ya!:D), and will be heading to University afterwards.
2) I'm deciding between architecture, and urban planning/urban design. I will hopefully be doing something in that area of knowledge. I'm in the preliminary stages of investigating Universities with good programs.
3) I Haven't even began to think about that, I probably should!

I'm 16...ish.

[MolsonExport]

I recall making $24K (1994) when I was 24, fresh out of uni with my BComm. That kind of money didn't go very far in Vancouver, where I was living. A year later I was pulling $28K. Still shitty, but an improvement. By the time I was 28, I worked my way up to $36K after two promotions, and seemingly billions of hours of work (averaging 60-100/week: the perils of retail management!). Then back to school (and back to beloved Montreal) for Master's (2 years, working part time), then PhD (6 years, working part time for 4 years, and full time for 2 years). Made $73K my first year out. Not so great yet (getting old now! and just getting started). 6 years later, I am in six figures, but on a tighter budget than ever before, having collected a wife, 2 kids, cat, house, car and all that noise, plus a rather nasty pile of student debt.

[manny_santos]

I'm 26. I assume you mean those who don't like the protestors.

1) when do you expect to graduate? did so in 2007, took me 9 months to find a job
2) what is your chosen vocation? child and youth worker
3) what are your expected earnings in year (1) of post-secondary employment, and year (5)? minimum wage, and minimum wage again. I work cuz I need to and i love my job.

Are you working in the CYW field? I know two other people under 30 who took that program at Fanshawe. One got a job after he got a Master's degree, although not in London. The other has been working various call center jobs in London since graduating several years ago.

Not very easy.

[go_leafs_go02]

1) I'll be graduating High Shool in 2013 (Ya!:D), and will be heading to University afterwards.
2) I'm deciding between architecture, and urban planning/urban design. I will hopefully be doing something in that area of knowledge. I'm in the preliminary stages of investigating Universities with good programs.
3) I Haven't even began to think about that, I probably should!

I'm 16...ish.

Whatever you do, just go for a college program with co-op. Good chance with a co-op you can end up with them long-term. I had two out near Vancouver, just wrapping up my technologist course, and I could be back there within a few months working full-time.

Don't always think university is your best bet. Know alot of people who end up with letters behind their name and no job experience.

[manny_santos]

Whatever you do, just go for a college program with co-op. Good chance with a co-op you can end up with them long-term. I had two out near Vancouver, just wrapping up my technologist course, and I could be back there within a few months working full-time.

Don't always think university is your best bet. Know alot of people who end up with letters behind their name and no job experience.

This is very true. I think that one of the fundamental problems with our university system is that there are too many graduates and too few jobs. Most of the students I knew who got great jobs right off the bat when graduating university had one or both parents working for the same company as the student. Once those positions were snapped up, all that was left were menial jobs. I know Western grads who have stayed in London and they are stuck working for the likes of Sykes and Stream. The best thing I could have ever done for myself is to have gotten not one, but two additional certifications after university to make myself more competitive.

Although I am currently unemployed due to downsizing, I have overall done well since I finished at Fanshawe. I have three job interviews next week.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Question for all of those protest critics under30:

1) when do you expect to graduate?
2) what is your chosen vocation?
3) what are your expected earnings in year (1) of post-secondary employment, and year (5)?

1) Just graduated last week from UWO
2) Business, Finance & Management
3) This year with TD it should be close to 45k, 5 years from now hopefully more than 45k :D

I don't have a problem with the protesters, they've got their message of perceived economic inequalities out to the public.

My issue is that everything is twisted to be about THEM, regardless of facts or figures. I've heard ridiculous claims like 1% of the population own 99% of the wealth, why they should have to payback their credit cards at 20% interest despite they know the terms and weren't forced to use them. How they interpret the Charter of Rights to be an absolute right for them to protest ignoring the most important section 1 that all rights are subject to reasonable limitations.

The worst part is their message is getting lost, their whining about being kicked out is becoming more of an issue than broad hazy perceived social and economic inequalities. While some points have merit a lot are just people who feel the world owes them everything, carte blanche with little or no effort. That it is their god given right and entitlement to prosperity despite their lack of skills or experience.

A friend of mine posted this picture and it sums up the protesters perfectly

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/384524_232637766799113_100001586733979_657769_648394345_n.jpg

[MolsonExport]

^Neither was true today nor then (re: photo)

You really think the youth today are "spoiled" compared to earlier generations? Compared to the flower children of the sixties? Compared to the kids with grade 9 education getting high paying factory jobs during the fifties? There was a little something called the draft in the 1940s, and still, many resisted (see draft riots in Montreal). Yeah, the good ol days when the best and brightest were served up as cannon fodder without any choice of their own.

The system needs refinement, societal goals need to figure more prominently than business interests. From any perspective (acidity in the oceans, biodiversity, deforestation, pollution, collapse of world fisheries, melting glaciers, rising ocean temperatures, extreme weather) the ecology of the planet is deteriorating at a cataclysmic rate. Trickle-down economics and the so-called invisible hand of the market are theories that work much better on paper than in practice. Income and wealth are sticky. The rich have tools to change the system to their benefit, and that they do. Businesses lobby and buy politicians. Corruption and graft are at epidemic proportions. Financial deregulation and speculation has enriched a small few while mortgaging the futures of the vast majority who later have to pick up the tab so that the entire system does not collapse. Education is about leveling the playing field but this is not what is happening...particularly south of the border.

These are facts, not opinion. But you don't have to take my word for it.


"Occupy Wall Street" gets a boost from a new report on income distribution The Economist, October 26, 2011.
OF ALL the many banners being waved around the world by disgruntled protesters from Chile to Australia the one that reads, "We Are the 99%" is the catchiest. It is purposefully vague, but it is also underpinned by some solid economics. A report from the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) points out that income inequality in America has not risen dramatically over the past 20 years—when the top 1% of earners are excluded. With them, the picture is quite different. The causes of the good fortune of those at the top are disputed, but the CBO provides some useful detail on that too. The biggest component of the increase in after-tax income for the top one percent is "business income" as opposed to income from labour or investments (though admittedly these things are hard to untangle). Whatever the cause, the data are powerful because they tend to support two prejudices. First, that a system that works well for the very richest has delivered returns on labour that are disappointing for everyone else. Second, that the people at the top have made out like bandits over the past few decades, and that now everyone else must pick up the bill. Of course it is a little more complicated than that. But this downturn ought to test the normally warm feelings in America of the 99% towards the 1%.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/10/income-inequality-america


http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/20111029_WOC689.gif

Inequality is on the rise in most places. Also from the Economist:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cHEKCILQCxA/TcEKX_FEoMI/AAAAAAAABO8/iLz4LkgNkAs/s1600/inequality.png

[haljackey]

^Neither was true today nor then (re: photo)


Great timing with that photo Pimpmasterdac.

War sucks. What soldiers go through can be horrific. Today we remember them for all they have done and they should set an example of how we should act today.

[Pimpmasterdac]

@haljackey, my feelings exactly. All of us have it much better today than those who fought and sacrificed for the freedom and prosperity that we enjoy today!

Compared to the kids with grade 9 education getting high paying factory jobs during the fifties? There was a little something called the draft in the 1940s, and still, many resisted (see draft riots in Montreal). Yeah, the good ol days when the best and brightest were served up as cannon fodder without any choice of their own.

Our economy has changed since the 50's where being born in the western world entitled people to well paying jobs. We are in a fierce global economy, where emerging markets like China, India & Brazil and their people will work like dogs to get ahead.

These protesters still seem to think it's their entitlement by birth to well paying jobs, yet don't get the essential skills. Were in high demand for engineers, doctors, science fields, I can bet you not one of those protesters have an education in those fields, they most likely have education in the over saturated social sciences fields. These emerging markets know where the key education is and are going to eat our lunch, they have a commitment to their work that's relentless.

While indeed we did have a draft, it was not the same as ones carried out by European nations. Up until the very end of the war Canadians conscripted had to volunteer to go overseas, otherwise they have zombie home guard duty (a la Pierre Trudeau). Quebec of course would riot they wouldn't fight, not the Kaiser, not Hitler, probably not even if Canada was invaded. Most of English Canada overwhelming supported our participation and conscription!

The system needs refinement, societal goals need to figure more prominently than business interests. From any perspective (acidity in the oceans, biodiversity, deforestation, pollution, collapse of world fisheries, melting glaciers, rising ocean temperatures, extreme weather) the ecology of the planet is deteriorating at a cataclysmic rate. Trickle-down economics and the so-called invisible hand of the market are theories that work much better on paper than in practice. Income and wealth are sticky. The rich have tools to change the system to their benefit, and that they do. Businesses lobby and buy politicians. Corruption and graft are at epidemic proportions. Financial deregulation and speculation has enriched a small few while mortgaging the futures of the vast majority who later have to pick up the tab so that the entire system does not collapse. Education is about leveling the playing field but this is not what is happening...particularly south of the border.

No arguments here on environment destruction. I would whole heartily agree that we need to stop destruction in Canada, as well as China, India, Brazil and other nations too. Unfortunately developing nations seem to think the west should stop cease economic development while they do some environmental damage to catch up to us.

While there are going to be economic disparities in income, as to be expected in any free market or mixed economy, I fundamentally disagree that its the rich to "blame" for the those that can't catch up. It's not realistic that the wealth of the rich would be stagnant or static to the middle or lower class. If the wealthy incomes decrease, the poor & middle classes will be feeling it BIG TIME!

Relative to the rest of the world, people can get an education in Canada (the US has issues and legitimate beefs about bailouts, IMO Canadians don't), they can get the skills so that they contribute to society and to their own prosperity. Ultimately people aren't getting the proper skills that are needed in our economy. We need either professional skills (engineers, doctors, science fields) or skilled trades. A lot of people are not going in those fields, they're going in over saturated fields, where their education is a dime a dozen.

These protesters are whining about their lack of success compared to others, they haven't offered any alternatives or solutions, just that they want more money and the rich make too much money. A Very convincing argument :haha:

South Park summed it up best with this

EY6fp95uGfM

[MolsonExport]

^except that the knuckle-headed financial deregulation and corporate kleptocracy in the United States affects economies near and far. Unfortunately, we are very near, and with 70% of our foreign trade with the USA...

The graph from the Economist clearly shows that 99% of the population apparently can't "catch up". It is not a free market when information is not transparent. It is not a free market when books are cooked.

[manny_santos]

These protesters still seem to think it's their entitlement by birth to well paying jobs, yet don't get the essential skills. Were in high demand for engineers, doctors, science fields, I can bet you not one of those protesters have an education in those fields, they most likely have education in the over saturated social sciences fields. These emerging markets know where the key education is and are going to eat our lunch, they have a commitment to their work that's relentless.

Relative to the rest of the world, people can get an education in Canada (the US has issues and legitimate beefs about bailouts, IMO Canadians don't), they can get the skills so that they contribute to society and to their own prosperity. Ultimately people aren't getting the proper skills that are needed in our economy. We need either professional skills (engineers, doctors, science fields) or skilled trades. A lot of people are not going in those fields, they're going in over saturated fields, where their education is a dime a dozen.

These protesters are whining about their lack of success compared to others, they haven't offered any alternatives or solutions, just that they want more money and the rich make too much money. A Very convincing argument :haha:

Which goes back to my earlier argument - way too many students being admitted into university, especially in the social sciences as you pointed out. People who shouldn't even be in university in the first place.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Which goes back to my earlier argument - way too many students being admitted into university, especially in the social sciences as you pointed out. People who shouldn't even be in university in the first place.

That's my feeling exactly. Personally I've seen "guidance councillors" more less bully/intimidate fellow students into this mantra of university or bust. Rather than sit down and figure out the best career path of students they say University is the be all, end off of education, totally marginalize community colleges and the practicality colleges could play in getting a real career and rather steer students to pointless social sciences. Almost makes me wonder if they're paid by Universities!

^except that the knuckle-headed financial deregulation and corporate kleptocracy in the United States affects economies near and far.

I'd agree with you on that. The US has very piss poor regulation system since 1997, due in major part to the influence of lobbyists on their political system via their financial contributions. Both Democrats & Republicans are to blame in a system where there seems to be endless contribution limits. Say what you will about Harper and the Conservatives, but the $1,000 a person limit, no corporate or union donations would clean up the US system overnight!

The graph from the Economist clearly shows that 99% of the population apparently can't "catch up". It is not a free market when information is not transparent. It is not a free market when books are cooked.

In a free economy should the 99% catch up to the 1% as a matter of policy!? The gap while descriptive of the accession of the 1% wealthy to the rest of the 99%, doesn't show those that moved between brackets, i.e social mobility between the brackets. Ultimately in a free or a mixed economy (more accurate to our situation) there are bound to be winners and losers.

To say that every group should or must increase at a static or equal percentage is a de-incentive to prosperity and work ethic. If someone knows that despite the amount of effort, education and determination they put in their work, their salary will increase only as part as those beneath them, why put that effort it!? I know there are many recent examples of golden parachutes for failed CEOs, but they are more the exception that the rule.

While we have a progressive tax system, why should we not have a progressive incentive/benefit system!?

[Wharn]

3) This year with TD it should be close to 45k, 5 years from now hopefully more than 45k :D


$45,000? Seriously? Maybe I should revise my expectations upwards, instead of just sticking with the old "Accounting Conservatism" mantra. Even though that mentality ended with the collapse of many a corporation, I might end up positively surprising myself :D

[manny_santos]

That's my feeling exactly. Personally I've seen "guidance councillors" more less bully/intimidate fellow students into this mantra of university or bust. Rather than sit down and figure out the best career path of students they say University is the be all, end off of education, totally marginalize community colleges and the practicality colleges could play in getting a real career and rather steer students to pointless social sciences. Almost makes me wonder if they're paid by Universities!

That was exactly what I saw in high school as well. When I was in Grade 8, a guidance counselor from my future high school visited us, and he recommended students take the "academic" stream (university-bound) if they were "good" at a subject, and take the "applied" stream (college-bound) if they were "bad" at a subject. At my high school, the applied classes had a lot of the bullies, the unmotivated students, and people with learning disabilities who should have been getting help instead of just being thrown in the college stream.

To say that every group should or must increase at a static or equal percentage is a de-incentive to prosperity and work ethic. If someone knows that despite the amount of effort, education and determination they put in their work, their salary will increase only as part as those beneath them, why put that effort it!? I know there are many recent examples of golden parachutes for failed CEOs, but they are more the exception that the rule.

It is naive to believe that people get good jobs based on their education and their abilities. It's based on who you know and what you look like. The people who make a lot of money don't necessarily have a good education or work ethic. It's even worse in the public sector.

[Snark]

It is naive to believe that people get good jobs based on their education and their abilities. It's based on who you know and what you look like. The people who make a lot of money don't necessarily have a good education or work ethic. It's even worse in the public sector.

Not in my office. You had better be really good to work for me. Nepotism plays 0% in my hiring decisions. I want the best because we do cutting edge stuff. Don't give me some bullsh1t about public sector this or that.

[K85]

Took me 9 months to get a job in the field... as a guy! I was lied to about how easy it would be. There is no funding from the government to help the kids that need it with people of my skill set. It's fucked. I just got laid off. Take that conservatives! More people to add to the EI train... assholes.

Are you working in the CYW field? I know two other people under 30 who took that program at Fanshawe. One got a job after he got a Master's degree, although not in London. The other has been working various call center jobs in London since graduating several years ago.

Not very easy.

[manny_santos]

Took me 9 months to get a job in the field... as a guy! I was lied to about how easy it would be. There is no funding from the government to help the kids that need it with people of my skill set. It's fucked. I just got laid off. Take that conservatives! More people to add to the EI train... assholes.

There's a lot of lies out there about how "easy" it is to get into various fields. It's all part of the sales job at colleges and universities. It was the same with the accounting field that I was originally interested in.

[K85]

Well, I heard it from people within the field, not just prof's. I'm good at what I do, been told this from people who work for CAS and other agencies too. But damn is it ever a bitch to find a job in a career path that is FULLY dependent on government funding, which is also seen as not essential.

[Pimpmasterdac]

$45,000? Seriously? Maybe I should revise my expectations upwards, instead of just sticking with the old "Accounting Conservatism" mantra. Even though that mentality ended with the collapse of many a corporation, I might end up positively surprising myself :D

Yessir, I was pleasantly surprised too I got that. Going into March I had no clue what to do with my fabulous UWO degree, but applied at the right time, impressed the right people and now living comfortably, with OSAP debts eliminated :cheers:

TD is a great company, lots of opportunity if your anything remotely business related, go apply to them even know in school they're very felxiable with times and making things work :tup:

It is naive to believe that people get good jobs based on their education and their abilities. It's based on who you know and what you look like. The people who make a lot of money don't necessarily have a good education or work ethic. It's even worse in the public sector.

I'm sorta iffy on that, truth be told I've gotten plumb summer jobs via the good ol' boys network that were well paying with minimal work/stress. That being said lately those connections dried up and personally gotten jobs based on ability and education that I achieved rather than any backdoor connections. Never hurts but having a good degree, with experience and good amount of confidence can get people jobs.

Unfortunately a lot of people have high expectations of that they believe they're entitled to a big salary, low work, be running stuff in no time. People need to hit the pavement, get experience and some formal education which can open doors simular to connections!

[manny_santos]

Unfortunately a lot of people have high expectations of that they believe they're entitled to a big salary, low work, be running stuff in no time. People need to hit the pavement, get experience and some formal education which can open doors simular to connections!

I think it depends a lot on the industry. Snark pointed out his employees must be of a certain standard of ability to get hired, but based on some of his posts I think he works in a highly technical field - possibly engineering - which would require all employees to have a high standard of ability.

I have no expectations of a high salary or high amounts of responsibilities when starting out, although it is disheartening to see the number of recent university/college graduates who do get these kinds of jobs right away. It's disheartening when you've put in a lot of work in university and have a high average, and some of the people who get hired are lazy and spend more time drinking than they do studying.

[Wharn]

Yessir, I was pleasantly surprised too I got that. Going into March I had no clue what to do with my fabulous UWO degree, but applied at the right time, impressed the right people and now living comfortably, with OSAP debts eliminated :cheers:


I was just at a CA event today, apparently the average salary for student workers is in the low 40's. Once you get started with the designation you can make $70k within the year. I don't like being overly optimistic but it's likely I was misunderestimating my potential earnings. I might give TD a chance but I'm going to be checking out a couple accounting firms first. Still have a MOS internship option as backup but the info session left a bad taste in my mouth.

[Stevo26]

Which goes back to my earlier argument - way too many students being admitted into university, especially in the social sciences as you pointed out. People who shouldn't even be in university in the first place.

One reason why too many kids are going to university is that their parents push them in that direction. For better or worse, many parents still seem to have the attitude that "my little Johnny or Janey isn't going to get their hands dirty in their working lives, they deserve better than that" - that there's still some sort of stigma attached to working in the trades.

But things have changed a lot since the early 1990s - we've moved away from an industrialized, factory-centric economy to something else. The low-value, low-skill jobs that were predominant in that sector back then have basically disappeared, and aren't coming back. Trades have developed a much more technological focus, such that the average industrial electrician today, for instance, needs to be able to write coherent reports, read and understand relatively complex technical documentation, and work with computers. Electrical work isn't a matter of slinging wires, and hooking up breaker boxes like it used to be.

About the only benefit university brings to kids entering social science and arts programmes is that they're less likely to be unemployed (debatable in today's economy, I admit), and when they are unemployed, they're unemployed for shorter periods of time. Plus they get a range of 'soft skills' - i.e. the ability to write well, analyze things, and synthesize information that some employers still find attractive.

However, a pattern I've noticed over the last twenty years is that many university grads find they have to pick up a few community college courses to get the hard skills they didn't get in university. Another worrying trend is that I've seen a boatload of university grads in my time who can't write very well at all - or at least not as well as you would expect them to given their level of education. I would hazard a guess that the ones who can't write worth a damn are the ones who shouldn't have undertaken university-level studies in the first place.

[Pimpmasterdac]

I have no expectations of a high salary or high amounts of responsibilities when starting out, although it is disheartening to see the number of recent university/college graduates who do get these kinds of jobs right away. It's disheartening when you've put in a lot of work in university and have a high average, and some of the people who get hired are lazy and spend more time drinking than they do studying.

That's fair, I've found employers weren't too concerned with the grades that I (and others) received in university/college (personally I was average). There more concerned with how represent yourself and the degree you have. In many cases, TD of example, there are many people with a business/finance background but many more with a social sciences/arts that really blew me away. It seems weird if anything people with economics degree working for history majors, but its how things work out it seems.

I was just at a CA event today, apparently the average salary for student workers is in the low 40's. Once you get started with the designation you can make $70k within the year. I don't like being overly optimistic but it's likely I was misunderestimating my potential earnings. I might give TD a chance but I'm going to be checking out a couple accounting firms first. Still have a MOS internship option as backup but the info session left a bad taste in my mouth.

CA designation is killer, it's like having a second degree if you can get it for education purposes do it up! I was steered towards that late highschool, but wasn't right for me 1) UWO doesn't offer a 4 year account degree 2) Rather work in more social-able fields (no offence). Money's great, I previously worked for BDO Dunwoody who have a major firm here in London lots of people out of university with lots of opportunities.

I didn't know MOS had internships, but if it pays and seems half decent might at well try.I still haven't but work I do keeps me busy, pays well and is "do at work" nothing to bring home. Lots of opportunity in London with financial services, TD, BDO Dunwoody, London Life, its finding the niche that you like and are/can get passionate about.

[manny_santos]

One reason why too many kids are going to university is that their parents push them in that direction. For better or worse, many parents still seem to have the attitude that "my little Johnny or Janey isn't going to get their hands dirty in their working lives, they deserve better than that" - that there's still some sort of stigma attached to working in the trades.

I experienced that myself; from the time I was 4 years old I knew that I would go to university when I finished high school. Both of my parents went to university, so it just seemed natural that I would do the same thing.

About the only benefit university brings to kids entering social science and arts programmes is that they're less likely to be unemployed (debatable in today's economy, I admit), and when they are unemployed, they're unemployed for shorter periods of time. Plus they get a range of 'soft skills' - i.e. the ability to write well, analyze things, and synthesize information that some employers still find attractive.

However, a pattern I've noticed over the last twenty years is that many university grads find they have to pick up a few community college courses to get the hard skills they didn't get in university. Another worrying trend is that I've seen a boatload of university grads in my time who can't write very well at all - or at least not as well as you would expect them to given their level of education. I would hazard a guess that the ones who can't write worth a damn are the ones who shouldn't have undertaken university-level studies in the first place.

All true. There are many jobs out there that require a university degree. The pattern of university grads taking community college programs is strong enough now that many colleges now have whole programs geared towards university graduates. Fanshawe has a few such programs, one of which I took last year. I definitely gained some hard skills there that I didn't get in university.

If you really want a hiring advantage in this country, learn French. Many good jobs, even in Ontario, require bilingual candidates. Globally, it also doesn't hurt to know another language.

I would also agree with the statement about the writing abilities of university graduates today.

[MolsonExport]

Much less bang for your buck (re: tuition, inflation....I will try to find something on the net present value of an undergraduate degree)
http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/college-cost-inflation.gif
New York Times.

Evidently these are American figures, but the Canadian trend is similar, if not as severe.
I was very lucky to benefit from rock-bottom Quebec tuition.

[Wharn]

Evidently these are American figures, but the Canadian trend is similar, if not as severe.
I was very lucky to benefit from rock-bottom Quebec tuition.

I think part of what is driving the higher prices are government subsidies. The universities don't exactly have any incentives to monitor costs carefully if they're well aware the government will cover most of it, with the students paying the remainder. So low tuition is not necessarily a good thing. Weird coming from a student, eh?

[MolsonExport]

^how else would IVEY be able to pay for that fireplace? :D


Anybody else catch the Larry Summers speech at UWO tuesday evening? I was there.

[Stevo26]

I experienced that myself; from the time I was 4 years old I knew that I would go to university when I finished high school. Both of my parents went to university, so it just seemed natural that I would do the same thing.



All true. There are many jobs out there that require a university degree. The pattern of university grads taking community college programs is strong enough now that many colleges now have whole programs geared towards university graduates. Fanshawe has a few such programs, one of which I took last year. I definitely gained some hard skills there that I didn't get in university.


I took a couple of business writing courses at Fanshawe recently and was surprised at the depth of thinking and intellectual rigour they required. They were easily as demanding as any university-level course I ever took. But what was even more surprising was that one of the texts for one of the courses was written by a prof at UWO.


If you really want a hiring advantage in this country, learn French. Many good jobs, even in Ontario, require bilingual candidates. Globally, it also doesn't hurt to know another language.

You're right, it doesn't hurt to learn French or any other foreign language. However, having been employed in the public sector for over 20 years now, I know that getting qualifications in French doesn't mean diddly-squat to most employers, including those in the public sector. If you're what they call 'mother-tongue French', you'll get the plum public-sector jobs, while the Anglos who have learned to speak and write French well by dint of their own efforts and on their own nickel are basically told to go pound salt.

<snip>

[manny_santos]

You're right, it doesn't hurt to learn French or any other foreign language. However, having been employed in the public sector for over 20 years now, I know that getting qualifications in French doesn't mean diddly-squat to most employers, including those in the public sector. If you're what they call 'mother-tongue French', you'll get the plum public-sector jobs, while the Anglos who have learned to speak and write French well by dint of their own efforts and on their own nickel are basically told to go pound salt.

Interesting. I suppose that the jobs I was looking at, which were marketing-related jobs at head offices in Toronto, wouldn't require native French necessarily; as I understand it, the requirement is there as management employees need to be able to read or understand the French versions of marketing materials for national brands.