[dennis1]

Proposal for Markham Arena?

http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/bob_mckenzie/?id=381071

[MolsonExport]

About as likely as the Beatles getting back together.

[shreddog]

Second ME on this one ... BTW, shouldn't this be in the Toronto section? Or at least the Ontario section??

[Rico Rommheim]

many big cities in the world have more than 1 football club, or cricket team or Baseball team, or whatever. Why not in hockey?

That said, are Torontonians that fed up with the laughs that they want to re-tool from scratch?

[dtgeek]

many big cities in the world have more than 1 football club, or cricket team or Baseball team, or whatever. Why not in hockey?


The Los Angeles area has two NHL teams, and the New York area has three, so it's not even unprecedented in the NHL.

That said, are Torontonians that fed up with the laughs that they want to re-tool from scratch?

Leafs tickets are hard to get, so yes.

[Xelebes]

Montreal even had two teams before the Original Six period.

[Rico Rommheim]

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKu_nDMTtUSY72wtxhr4Jdea6HSrBZNqsFO6eXr6SdQwK-Km3vtb_xJ8mx

2 stanley cups :)

[blacktrojan3921]

Something tells me that this is the second toronto NHL team.

http://www.torontolegacy.com/

[BLACK STAR]

Gawd no........

[isaidso]

many big cities in the world have more than 1 football club, or cricket team or Baseball team, or whatever. Why not in hockey?

Agree 100%. Melbourne has no fewer than 9 football teams, surely much larger Toronto could support 3-4 NHL teams. Montreal should have more than 1 as well.

[reidjr]

Agree 100%. Melbourne has no fewer than 9 football teams, surely much larger Toronto could support 3-4 NHL teams. Montreal should have more than 1 as well.

As with Toronto look at the population take in to account the massive amount of new canadians comming in many from non hockey areas but soccer/rugby mad areas my point is no i don't think toronto could support 3-4 1 more no question maybe another on say in hamilton but thats about it.As with montreal its a bit unique with how close it is to ottawa i am not sure if 3 teams in a 2 hours drive would work out all that well in this area maybe it could work but i think it would be hard on the senators as it would be the same distance for people from the east end to go to montreal as it is to go to the scotia bank place.

[armorand93]

I think Quebec City should get the next one. That or Saskatchewan, since they can apparently afford such things with their resource boom

[Symz]

Toronto definately needs a second team. From what I hear most if not all Leafs games are usually packed/sold out and the Leafs usually pretty much stink so what does that tell ya?

There is room there for a second team, the hockey market is so strong in Canada, the GTA could support a second team.

It makes more sense to put a second team in that market than putting teams in far off southern U.S. states...

[Mister F]

Agree 100%. Melbourne has no fewer than 9 football teams, surely much larger Toronto could support 3-4 NHL teams. Montreal should have more than 1 as well.
The difference is that there's a lot more money in the NHL than Aussie Rules Football. AFL salaries are closer to the CFL than the NHL. Still, Toronto could definitely support another team and that arena site is just around the corner from where I live :tup: Ultimately I could see 10 NHL teams in Canada, with teams in Hamilton and Quebec City too. Assuming of course that new owners are willing to pay big bucks to the Leafs and Sabres. A concept I think is ridiculous, but hey that's how it works in North America.

Toronto definately needs a second team. From what I hear most if not all Leafs games are usually packed/sold out and the Leafs usually pretty much stink so what does that tell ya?
The Leafs are leading their division right now. Burke's rebuilding over the last 3 years is starting to pay off and while they're still young and inconsistent, when they're on they can beat anyone. They'll be a contender in the very near future.

[LeftCoaster]

BTW, shouldn't this be in the Toronto section? Or at least the Ontario section??

Didn't you know, this is the Toronto section. ;)

[mr.John]

Over Bettman's dead dwarf body, it might interfere with his master plan to expand the NHL to Mexico..first team the Mexico city toreros,then it's off to south America with the Rio carnivals

[freeweed]

Winnipeg is proof positive that if you have an arena, and ownership willing to gamble, the NHL will move franchises up north. Bettman will swear up and down that this isn't going to happen anymore, but we all know the truth - at least half a dozen NHL teams are in dire straits right now and the ONLY reason they're staying put is that there's nowhere for them to play. There are cities with an arena but no owner (Kansas City) and cities with an owner but no arena (Quebec City, this is changing soon). If the GTA builds another arena and has willing ownership, they'll almost certainly get a team in short order. It may come with a $2-300 million expansion/relocation/territory fee, but they'll get one.

The Coyotes are looking ever-more-likely to move to Quebec for next season. The floodgates have opened, and Winnipeg was just the first. I forsee 9-10 Canadian franchises before this is all done, unless the US somehow has a miracle economic recovery in the next 5 years. The NHL isn't stupid, they're businessmen. If they can make more money in Canada, they'll come crawling back.

Oh wait, they already did. :D

[Acajack]

Well, a second Toronto area NHL team, if it were ever awarded, would certainly "work". Games would be well-attended, decent corporate sponsorships would be obtained, a lucrative TV contract would be secured, and viewers would watch the games. People would buy merchandise. All of this is a near-certainty.

(Sounds like crude capitalist logic, I know.)

However, the fly in the ointment is the NHL's stamp of approval. This will not happen until the situation in the U.S. becomes so dire* that the only two choices are a) relocating floundering teams and b) contraction. (*Not sure if things will ever get that bad, but we shall see...)

Now, no league wants to contract unless it absolutely has to. It is truly the last resort, and is far less interesting than a franchise move which at least allows you to recoup some of your losses (sometimes even to make a bit of money) and save face. Even if it means moving to a place you don't really want to go to, and that just a few weeks before the move you were telling everyone that there were NO plans to move ANY franchises. Right Winnipeg?

[flar]

If the Leafs would allow a team in their territory, Hamilton would have had a team years ago.

[mr.John]

there are rumours that maple leaf entertainment (whatever the company is called) might sell to an American investment firm for 1.5 billion (they refused my 1.4 billion offer)

[The_Architect]

Hopefully the competition would make mlse lower their goddamn prices.

[eternallyme]

If Toronto is such a huge hockey market as is believed, why do Toronto Marlies games and the OHL teams' games in the area draw so horribly? In both cases, they are near the bottom of the leagues in attendance. Is there any reason to believe a second NHL team wouldn't be the same? Toronto is a Leafs' town, not a hockey town. The Leafs probably should play their games at Rogers Centre given the demand.

In other markets with overlaps (Calgary, Vancouver, Ottawa, Edmonton), their counterparts are all high up in attendance.

[haljackey]

Kitchener, Hamilton, London, and now Markham?

Why not have a second one right in Toronto? At least Markham is within the CMA... Mississauga could also be a great choice as that city's population is now really up there.

[MolsonExport]

Over Bettman's dead dwarf body, it might interfere with his master plan to expand the NHL to Mexico..first team the Mexico city toreros,then it's off to south America with the Rio carnivals

Nahh, he's gonna have a NHL team of girls in Rio, and call them the Girls from Impanema. A marketplace smash.

[MolsonExport]

. The Leafs probably should play their games at Rogers Centre given the demand.

.

Yeah, bring your microscope to follow the puck.:rolleyes:

Maybe they could even open the dome on fair evenings!

[DizzyEdge]

Second ME on this one ... BTW, shouldn't this be in the Toronto section? Or at least the Ontario section??

Nah, cause it's a national league.

[freeweed]

If Toronto is such a huge hockey market as is believed, why do Toronto Marlies games and the OHL teams' games in the area draw so horribly? In both cases, they are near the bottom of the leagues in attendance. Is there any reason to believe a second NHL team wouldn't be the same? Toronto is a Leafs' town, not a hockey town.

Arguably it shows that Toronto is an NHL town.

[blacktrojan3921]

We also have to keep in mind that I think after the fail bomb that was the Atlanta Thrashers; I am willing to bet that the NHL and owners of the teams struggling are now going into overdrive to try and bring public awareness to hockey, get them to a game, and in turn make them fans.

If Toronto is such a huge hockey market as is believed, why do Toronto Marlies games and the OHL teams' games in the area draw so horribly? In both cases, they are near the bottom of the leagues in attendance.

That is highly misleading dude, OHL arenas usually have a seating capacity of less then 10,000, while WHL arenas in the case of the Hitmen and the Oil Kings usually share the same arena as they're NHL counterparts.

Plus the Marlies play in Ricoh Coliseum, that houses less then 10,000 seats. But yes, I agree that it might be time for the Marlies to move elsewhere.

[Joshy]

If Toronto is such a huge hockey market as is believed, why do Toronto Marlies games and the OHL teams' games in the area draw so horribly? In both cases, they are near the bottom of the leagues in attendance. Is there any reason to believe a second NHL team wouldn't be the same? Toronto is a Leafs' town, not a hockey town. The Leafs probably should play their games at Rogers Centre given the demand.

In other markets with overlaps (Calgary, Vancouver, Ottawa, Edmonton), their counterparts are all high up in attendance.

What NHL market does Vancouver overlap with :shrug: :sly:

[Acajack]

What NHL market does Vancouver overlap with :shrug: :sly:

I think they meant major junior hockey. Vancouver has a WHL team, as do the other cities mentioned (Ottawa in the OHL though).

[Joshy]

i think they meant major junior hockey. Vancouver has a whl team, as do the other cities mentioned (ottawa in the ohl though).

i c.

[Acajack]

That is highly misleading dude, OHL arenas usually have a seating capacity of less then 10,000, while WHL arenas in the case of the Hitmen and the Oil Kings usually share the same arena as they're NHL counterparts.

Plus the Marlies play in Ricoh Coliseum, that houses less then 10,000 seats. But yes, I agree that it might be time for the Marlies to move elsewhere.

But what does arena size have to do with attendance? The Marlies couldn't fill a 5,000-seat arena, let alone one that seats 10,000.

People don't go to junior games in Calgary and Edmonton because their arenas are bigger, they go there because they like to watch hockey.

[Acajack]

In other markets with overlaps (Calgary, Vancouver, Ottawa, Edmonton), their counterparts are all high up in attendance.

And the Ottawa Senators actually have two major junior teams in their market: the Ottawa 67's (averaging 5,000-8,000 fans per game depending on the year), plus the Gatineau Olympiques who play about 2 km away from Parliament Hill and who generally average between 2,5000 and 3,000 fans per game.

[Joshy]

And the Ottawa Senators actually have two major junior teams in their market: the Ottawa 67's (averaging 5,000-8,000 fans per game depending on the year), plus the Gatineau Olympiques who play about 2 km away from Parliament Hill and who generally average between 2,5000 and 3,000 fans per game.

That is some pretty large variability ;)

[That_Chris]

A Hamilton team not only makes more sense from a league perspective, but it would be a huge boon to Hamilton.

And quite frankly, the average Torontonian would probably be able to get to Hamilton for a game and back for a hell of a lot cheaper than to go to a Toronto game, regardless of how many teams they have.

[telyou]

If Toronto is such a huge hockey market as is believed, why do Toronto Marlies games and the OHL teams' games in the area draw so horribly? In both cases, they are near the bottom of the leagues in attendance.

You obviously don't know much about hockey. The Marlies are an AHL team and few people if any actually care about the AHL.
By your logic Montreal is not a hockey market either. The Montreal QMJHL team has lower attandance then Mississauga and Oshawa.
Fact is that once a city has an NHL the minor league teams are forgotten.

[LeftCoaster]

Fact is that once a city has an NHL the minor league teams are forgotten.

I don't know if that is particularly a fact.

Calgary and Vancouver were one and two in WHL attendance last year and both have NHL teams (well I suppose its debatable as to whether the flames qualify as an NHL team...)

[Ayreonaut]

Fact is that once a city has an NHL the minor league teams are forgotten.

Which, as has been mentioned, is not the case in Alberta (and probably BC; I'm not sure how well the Giants do).

Edit: I was beaten to it.

[Rico Rommheim]

It seems to me that if Montreal was able to carry two successful NHL teams in the 1920's and 30's, Montreal (and Toronto) should be able nowadays.

[telyou]

Which, as has been mentioned, is not the case in Alberta (and probably BC; I'm not sure how well the Giants do).

Edit: I was beaten to it.

Oshawa's number are just as high as Edmonton's.

(well I suppose its debatable as to whether the flames qualify as an NHL team...)

When is the last time the Leafs made the playoffs and when is the last time the Flames have? Thought so ;)

[JHikka]

Bettman gets an unwarranted bad rap from Canadians who misunderstand his position. The Board of Governors make decisions, he speaks for them.

I'd love to see another NHL team in the GTA but it seems unlikely in the next few years given the league's stance on expansion and relocation. Along with that, the Leafs regional control would have to be changed to allow for another team so nearby.

[LeftCoaster]

When is the last time the Leafs made the playoffs and when is the last time the Flames have? Thought so ;)

They are both just awful, what's your point?

[Acajack]

That is some pretty large variability ;)

Oups! 2,500 to 3,000... :jester:

[The_Architect]

They are both just awful, what's your point?

Can't hear you from 4th in the league.. ;)

[M II A II R II K]

Proposed Markham arena would rival ACC


November 22, 2011

By Mike Zeisberger

http://www.torontosun.com/assets/img/interface/sun.png

Read More: http://www.torontosun.com/2011/11/22/proposed-markham-arena-would-rival-acc

A new 20,000 seat arena for the GTA? If Graeme Roustan has his way, such a sparkling new building could be ready for business in Markham by 2014. Roustan, Chairman and CEO of GTA Sports and Entertainment, acknowledged on Tuesday that “we’re looking forward to bringing our official proposal to the town of Markham in the near future.” Markham Mayor Frank Scarpitti reportedly was going to update Markham council during a private session of a meeting on Tuesday night. Town councillors are aware of the project but have been publicly muzzled after signing non-disclosure agreements.

The arena, which is estimated to cost $300 million, would be part of a massive project spearheaded by Roustan and Toronto-area land developer Rudy Bratty, who has an estimated net worth of $940 million. The proposed real estate venture calls for the construction of a huge entertainment and sports complex that would include the arena. The arena would be situated west of Kennedy Rd., north of Highway 407 and west of the Unionville GO Station on land owned by Bratty.

Roustan, who also is the chairman of the Bauer hockey equipment company, insisted that the proposed arena is not predicated on wooing a second National Hockey League team to the Golden Horseshoe, claiming the building’s purpose is to supply a venue for concerts and other entertainment shows. Whether the NHL one day decides to look at putting a second team in southern Ontario will have no bearing on whether the arena gets built, Roustan said.

“This market has clearly demostrated the need for a second world class (entertainment) facility,” Roustan told the Toronto Sun on Tuesday night. “This market certainly can support it.” In other words, the GTA Centre, the name of the proposed arena, would provide a viable option to concert goers to the Air Canada Centre. Indeed, it is believed that show promoter Live Event already has shown interest.

.....



http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_resize/sws_path/suns-prod-images/1297215246075_LARGE_LANDSCAPE.jpg?quality=80&stmp=1322093465784&size=980x




-----------------------------------------

Proposed Markham arena not an attempt to land a team

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/11/22/another-gta-option-for-nhl


.....

On the surface, the proposed construction of the 19,500-seat GTA Centre in Markham is not an attempt to land a second National Hockey League team to southern Ontario. Indeed, in an interview with Bauer chairman Graeme Roustan on Tuesday night, the man spearheading the project along with Toronto-area real estate mogul Rudy Bratty, he seemed very sincere when insisting this is to be an entertainment/concert venue, not a building designed to have an NHL team as its prime tenant.

Having said that, it's impossible not to connect the dots here. While it might not be the primary purpose for building such a venue, the existence of such a facility does give the NHL one important thing. An option.

.....

[Rico Rommheim]

With a region of more than 6 million, it makes perfect sense for the gta to have more than 1 centre.

[lake of the nations]

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKu_nDMTtUSY72wtxhr4Jdea6HSrBZNqsFO6eXr6SdQwK-Km3vtb_xJ8mx

2 stanley cups :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/fr/6/62/Wanderers_de_Montr%C3%A9al.gif
http://fr.wikipedia.org/ (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Wanderers_de_Montr%C3%A9al.gif)

8 Stanley Cups :)

[logan5]

:previous:

Looks like a massive casino.

[MolsonExport]

the Wanderers!

[Urban_Genius]

Won't happen anyways.
And I'm not so sure a team in Toronto (or Markham) is going to automatically be a success. Not saying Toronto couldn't theoretically support a 2nd NHL team, but I don't think it's as much of a slam dunk. The great thing about sports is that people have an emotional investment to their team. Hockey fans in Toronto already have their team and are unlikely to switch allegiances. IMO a second team in Toronto proper (or immediate suburbs) would become the LA Clippers of the NHL.

[reidjr]

You obviously don't know much about hockey. The Marlies are an AHL team and few people if any actually care about the AHL.
By your logic Montreal is not a hockey market either. The Montreal QMJHL team has lower attandance then Mississauga and Oshawa.
Fact is that once a city has an NHL the minor league teams are forgotten.

Then why with places such as Ottawa,Vancouver etc support nhl and major jr?

[flar]

^^AHL and Major Junior get lost in the shuffle in places like Toronto and Montreal and even Hamilton, since an evening in Toronto or Niagara is an easy option. There's just so much else to do that people come to expect the best. Stuff like the AHL just doesn't interest people in those places. In contrast, a place like Ottawa is boring and isolated which permits a following to develop around small time entertainment. Maybe Vancouver hasn't achieved that critical mass yet either.

[LeftCoaster]

Yet Hamilton has?

No I think people just appreciate a decently priced hockey game out there, especially families who cant afford 4 Canucks tickets. I've never understood the lack of support for the Marlies here, $20ish for a hockey game should be an attractive option for a city in Canada, instead people just do nothing. It's a very strange scene.

Especially since the lineup the leafs throw out most nights is the just a handful of marlies with Lupul, Phaneuf and Kessel anyway. Might as well save yourself $200 and go to a marlies game.

[yaletown_fella]

I think Kitchener-Waterloo would be viable in a decade. That region is growing fast and has no green belt restrictions.

We should bear in mind most Leafs fans with money are GTA 905ers. A 2nd franchise is possible but it would, indeed, become an NHL Clippers.

[Jstaleness]

Yet Hamilton has?

No I think people just appreciate a decently priced hockey game out there, especially families who cant afford 4 Canucks tickets. I've never understood the lack of support for the Marlies here, $20ish for a hockey game should be an attractive option for a city in Canada, instead people just do nothing. It's a very strange scene.

Especially since the lineup the leafs throw out most nights is the just a handful of marlies with Lupul, Phaneuf and Kessel anyway. Might as well save yourself $200 and go to a marlies game.

How well are Marlie games advertised in media and radio? Is there family packages available? Lastly do the games get aired on "B" channel TV or just radio?

[freeweed]

Vancouver or Montreal would have a harder time supporting a 2nd team - not because of population but because their teams have actually had success since HNIC went to colour. I think people overestimate the "die hard Leafs forever" fan contingent - give the GTA another NHL franchise, that actually wins, and I bet plenty of people would switch allegiance in a heartbeat.

To put it another way, the Torontonians I know aren't all guys in their 60s, reminiscing about the glory days and slavering drones that will only accept the ONE TRUE TEAM. I think they support the Leafs largely because it's the only option, not because Toronto is filled with millions of people whose memories go back 50 years.

Especially with the massive amount of new immigrants hitting the city every year, and the hockey audience growing into all sorts of new demographics. These people don't really give a shit about the Leafs, and like most people would prefer to support a team that wins - hell, just look at how Pittsburgh and Chicago are suddenly the "fan favourites" across the country, while they toiled in relative obscurity for over a decade.

[reidjr]

How well are Marlie games advertised in media and radio? Is there family packages available? Lastly do the games get aired on "B" channel TV or just radio?

If it was just the marlies you could say maybe its atleast partly because of marketing but when you have ohl teams as well with attendance issues even last year the majors one of the best teams int he country were one of the worst supported.

[reidjr]

^^AHL and Major Junior get lost in the shuffle in places like Toronto and Montreal and even Hamilton, since an evening in Toronto or Niagara is an easy option. There's just so much else to do that people come to expect the best. Stuff like the AHL just doesn't interest people in those places. In contrast, a place like Ottawa is boring and isolated which permits a following to develop around small time entertainment. Maybe Vancouver hasn't achieved that critical mass yet either.

Ottawa is not is boring at all i know some love saying it is but its not and no ottawa is not isolated ottawa to montreal is a easy option.

[The_Architect]

Vancouver or Montreal would have a harder time supporting a 2nd team - not because of population but because their teams have actually had success since HNIC went to colour. I think people overestimate the "die hard Leafs forever" fan contingent - give the GTA another NHL franchise, that actually wins, and I bet plenty of people would switch allegiance in a heartbeat.


You're talking about Toronto not having success but you use Vancouver as an example? :koko:

And you're wrong fyi.. It may be fairweather in Calgary or other Canadian cities over there, but over here in hockey land it's not just a team.. You're raised to be a Leaf fan from day 1, and Leafs fans are the most loyal in the NHL.

Toronto and Montreal are the same way in that respect, both teams have fanbases that are loyal and fans for life, raised from birth. The majority of Leafs fans would not switch, and the ones who would.. Well they're the fairweather fans who cheered for Montreal in 2010 so we don't want em anyway.

[The_Architect]

If it was just the marlies you could say maybe its atleast partly because of marketing but when you have ohl teams as well with attendance issues even last year the majors one of the best teams int he country were one of the worst supported.

They play in Mississauga. And you're completely incorrect, they had fine attendance last year.

Man, some people here just like to hate on Toronto and don't even make sure they have their facts straight..

[LeftCoaster]

You're talking about Toronto not having success but you use Vancouver as an example? :koko:

Well since HNIC has gone to colour the Canucks have been by far the more successful team. Don't know what is to argue there.

Anyway the league and the leafs will never let another team come to Toronto, and I for one hope they don't. I want the NHL to go to places like Seattle or KC before we just jam all the teams in Canada and turn it into some marginalized CFL product where the Saskatoon Rabbits play the Markham Ice Pups.

[Xelebes]

If the US is forced to contract, then it might be wise to create/let in an oversea league and operate a MLH set up.

[Jstaleness]

Toronto and Montreal are the same way in that respect, both teams have fanbases that are loyal and fans for life, raised from birth. The majority of Leafs fans would not switch, and the ones who would.. Well they're the fairweather fans who cheered for Montreal in 2010 so we don't want em anyway.

I'm a Leafs fan. One thing I do think Montreal Fans to way better is show their anger when their team stinks! Leaf fans need to become more vocal about how we feel when they are loosing. Buying more merch and bitching on the sidelines isn't enough. We can Boo too!

[Mister F]

Even if not a single Leafs fan switches to a new team, there are so many hockey fans in the GTA who hate the Leafs that the new team would have an instant following. I'm sure I'd follow the team but no way I'd cheer for them over the Leafs. Looking forward to a GO train playoff series!

So there's no application yet and they want to start construction in the spring? Good luck with that. All the approvals for such a big project don't happen overnight.

[reidjr]

They play in Mississauga. And you're completely incorrect, they had fine attendance last year.

Man, some people here just like to hate on Toronto and don't even make sure they have their facts straight..

They did avg around 3,000 that just around the league avg for a team thatw as one of the best on ice teams they should have sold out most games or come close to it.

[flar]

Yet Hamilton has?


Hamilton doesn't have critical mass by itself, but you can go come home from work, eat supper and be in Toronto for the drop of the puck, the opening pitch of a ball game, or whatever else you want to do. I'm trying to explain why Major Junior and AHL don't register in Hamilton.


And no, Ottawa to Montreal is not at all comparable to Hamilton-Toronto. Ottawa to Montreal is an overnight trip if you want to be comfortable. Hamilton-Toronto is one big urban area. Ottawa and Montreal are far from that.

[reidjr]

Even if not a single Leafs fan switches to a new team, there are so many hockey fans in the GTA who hate the Leafs that the new team would have an instant following. I'm sure I'd follow the team but no way I'd cheer for them over the Leafs. Looking forward to a GO train playoff series!

So there's no application yet and they want to start construction in the spring? Good luck with that. All the approvals for such a big project don't happen overnight.

There is no question its a great nhl market i would even say the best and i don't question a 2nd team would be a hit.

[reidjr]

Hamilton doesn't have critical mass itself, but you can go come home from work, eat supper and be in Toronto for the drop of the puck, the opening pitch of a ball game, or whatever else you want to do. I'm trying to explain why Major Junior and AHL don't register in Hamilton.


And no, Ottawa to Montreal is not at all comparable to Hamilton-Toronto. Ottawa to Montreal is an overnight trip if you want to be comfortable.

Not Hamilton but Ottawa-Montreal is the same distance as Toronto-Niagara.

[yaletown_fella]

You're talking about Toronto not having success but you use Vancouver as an example? :koko:

And you're wrong fyi.. It may be fairweather in Calgary or other Canadian cities over there, but over here in hockey land it's not just a team.. You're raised to be a Leaf fan from day 1, and Leafs fans are the most loyal in the NHL.

Toronto and Montreal are the same way in that respect, both teams have fanbases that are loyal and fans for life, raised from birth. The majority of Leafs fans would not switch, and the ones who would.. Well they're the fairweather fans who cheered for Montreal in 2010 so we don't want em anyway.

Well, I've spent over 5 years living in Vancouver and 14 years living in Toronto. Vancouver is not fairweather. From my experience I would say Vancouver has proportionately larger loyal NHL fanbase than Toronto. Maybe that's because it's the only major league team the city could financially support. Also, Toronto's new immigrants are obv. more into soccer/NBA.
Also, I find the hatred of the Leafs in Vancouver to be interesting. I'm wondering if this is a born-n-bred BCer thing or an ex-Ontarian thing?

[samne]

Not Hamilton but Ottawa-Montreal is the same distance as Toronto-Niagara.

Toronto-Buffalo is about right.

[freeweed]

Also, I find the hatred of the Leafs in Vancouver to be interesting. I'm wondering if this is a born-n-bred BCer thing or an ex-Ontarian thing?

It's a western thing. Just as Leaf fans can't deal with the fact that the Original 6 era only lasted 25 years and is nearly 50 years in the past, many of us still can't get over the CBC broadcasting a perpetually losing team in favour of a Cup champion in the 1980s. Or at least any team who's made it to the finals, over the past couple of decades.

This has all changed of course with modern television (we haven't been stuck watching Leafs games only for at least a decade) but memories are long. It'll be another generation at least before the Leafs are relegated to being "just another team, that happens to have been around a bit longer". Hell, just look at how long the ridiculously outdated "Original 6" phrase has lasted. It's frightening to think that very soon, San Jose will have had a team longer than the Original 6 era lasted.

[Acajack]

Well since HNIC has gone to colour the Canucks have been by far the more successful team. Don't know what is to argue there.

Anyway the league and the leafs will never let another team come to Toronto, and I for one hope they don't. I want the NHL to go to places like Seattle or KC before we just jam all the teams in Canada and turn it into some marginalized CFL product where the Saskatoon Rabbits play the Markham Ice Pups.

Living in the Ottawa-Gatineau metro, I really do feel like we're hot shit because we've got a pro hockey team that shares a league with such global hot spots like Raleigh and Columbus. Perhaps the NHL should expand to Green Bay as well so we can all feel like we've really hit the big time!

[The_Architect]

Living in the Ottawa-Gatineau metro, I really do feel like we're hot shit because we've got a pro hockey team that shares a league with such global hot spots like Raleigh and Columbus. Perhaps the NHL should expand to Green Bay as well so we can all feel like we've really hit the big time!

They're both the same size or bigger than Ottawa-Gatineau and their metropolitan area doesn't have to go for 50 miles in every direction.. :sly:

[eternallyme]

Hamilton doesn't have critical mass by itself, but you can go come home from work, eat supper and be in Toronto for the drop of the puck, the opening pitch of a ball game, or whatever else you want to do. I'm trying to explain why Major Junior and AHL don't register in Hamilton.


And no, Ottawa to Montreal is not at all comparable to Hamilton-Toronto. Ottawa to Montreal is an overnight trip if you want to be comfortable. Hamilton-Toronto is one big urban area. Ottawa and Montreal are far from that.

Ottawa to Toronto is about equivalent to the distance between New York and Boston or Washington.

[MolsonExport]

Not Hamilton but Ottawa-Montreal is the same distance as Toronto-Niagara.

except that while most of the in-between for the former consists of farms, scrub, forests and a sprinkling of insignificant communities, most of the in-between of the latter is solid urbanization.

[MolsonExport]

Also, I find the hatred of the Leafs in Vancouver to be interesting. I'm wondering if this is a born-n-bred BCer thing or an ex-Ontarian thing?

Outside of Ontario, the Leafs are almost universally reviled. Even here in London, the Loafs are only marginally more popular than the Red Wings, with the Habs coming in third.

[eternallyme]

except that while most of the in-between for the former consists of farms, scrub, forests and a sprinkling of insignificant communities, most of the in-between of the latter is solid urbanization.

Correct. Another comparable distance between Ottawa and Toronto is between Detroit and Chicago, which has no large cities and several small to mid-sized cities.

[reidjr]

except that while most of the in-between for the former consists of farms, scrub, forests and a sprinkling of insignificant communities, most of the in-between of the latter is solid urbanization.

The thing is that is changing between ottawa and montreal your seeing more and more sprawl and if some get there ay i think that will even be far more sprawl in the next few years.

[MolsonExport]

^I drive that stretch perhaps 15 times per year, and the stretch is almost vacant, aside from the teeming megacities of Casselman, Hawkesbury, and Rigaud.

[Acajack]

They're both the same size or bigger than Ottawa-Gatineau and their metropolitan area doesn't have to go for 50 miles in every direction.. :sly:

That is not really my point. My point is that no one in New York is bothered by the fact that the Giants and Jets play in the same league as Green Bay or Jacksonville.

[reidjr]

^I drive that stretch perhaps 15 times per year, and the stretch is almost vacant, aside from the teeming megacities of Casselman, Hawkesbury, and Rigaud.

There not going to be mega citys but if people don't want devlopement in the city limits that could mean that these areas will get bigger no question it will never be like southern ontario but it could be alot more devlopement in the comming years.

[Acajack]

Ottawa is not a boring city but obviously there are more things to do and more competition for the entertainment dollar in much larger urban areas like Toronto and Montreal. That said, I am not sure if this is a determining factor in the popularity of non-professional sports like major junior hockey. Plenty of large metros in the U.S. (some of comparable size to Toronto or Montreal) are very much into non-professional NCAA sports like football and/or basketball.

[Mister F]

They're both the same size or bigger than Ottawa-Gatineau and their metropolitan area doesn't have to go for 50 miles in every direction.. :sly:
They kind of do actually. The Raleigh metro is only slightly smaller than Ottawa's and Columbus is way bigger. American metros tend to be more spread than Canadian ones. The fact that they're the same size as Ottawa just goes to show that the whole can be less than the sum of its parts.

[someone123]

That is not really my point. My point is that no one in New York is bothered by the fact that the Giants and Jets play in the same league as Green Bay or Jacksonville.

Canada is particularly bad for this sort of thing whereas it seems like the US is more inclusive on a national basis (while ignoring the rest of the planet). There's also more diversity in terms of larger or smaller cities specializing and being important in different areas. Charlotte became an important banking centre for example. I couldn't really see that happening in Canada.

I don't think it's an accident that this subforum has a rigid pecking order of cities.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I consider pro sports a classic capitalist marketing scam that is 99% branding and bizarre social pressure. It is a mechanism for turning tribalist tendencies into millions of dollars for a select few. I guess the consolation is that many people deserve to be scammed.

[freeweed]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I consider pro sports a classic capitalist marketing scam that is 99% branding and bizarre social pressure. It is a mechanism for turning tribalist tendencies into millions of dollars for a select few. I guess the consolation is that many people deserve to be scammed.

You're not wrong at all. More than a bit cynical, but not wrong.

Pro sports work exactly like all marketing. Whether it's high end clothes, fancy cars, our houses, televisions, 3D movies, greeting cards, Starbucks coffee, video game consoles, souped-up computers to check your email on, makeup, $7 beers at a bar, the entire Xmas shopping season, diamond engagement rings, 5 figure weddings, or a thousand other things we piss away our money on - it's ALL branding and social pressure. No one would spend 1/10th the money we do on any of this stuff if we actually decided rationally and individually.

We all pick our poison(s).

[Ramako]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I consider pro sports a classic capitalist marketing scam that is 99% branding and bizarre social pressure. It is a mechanism for turning tribalist tendencies into millions of dollars for a select few. I guess the consolation is that many people deserve to be scammed.

Following a team doesn't just mean watching people running around on a field for a couple hours evey few days; it means following the history, characters, and storylines that identify that team, and the successes, failures, drama, politics and plot twists that allow you to understand and emotionally invest in their struggle. Sport, professional or otherwise, can be as valid a form of entertainment as film, television, threatre or literature. That's why empires and nations, capitalistic, communist and otherwise, have rallied behind the successes and failures of their athletes since the dawn of time. Sport represents the epitome of the human struggle. Even the greatest thinkers in history, the ancient Greeks and Romans, understood the inherent value in appreciating athletics and sport.

So just because you're unable to appreciate pro sports doesn't mean that those who do are foolish.

[ue]

I think a 2nd Toronto team would be great, but Quebec City and Hamilton need their own teams first. Lets get all the large and semi-large Canadian cities with an NHL team before we go about giving one of them a 2nd team.

[dennis1]

That is not really my point. My point is that no one in New York is bothered by the fact that the Giants and Jets play in the same league as Green Bay or Jacksonville.

The disparity between the 1 st and 10th largest metros is much larger in Canada.

[Acajack]

The disparity between the 1 st and 10th largest metros is much larger in Canada.

Except that the NFL is not limited to the 10 largest metros (Buffalo and Jacksonville are in the 40s), and neither is the CFL (Regina is 18th).

New York is something like 20 times the size of Buffalo and Jacksonville, and Toronto is like 25 times the size of Regina.

New York is also about 75 times the size of Green Bay.

[matt602]

I think a 2nd Toronto team would be great, but Quebec City and Hamilton need their own teams first. Lets get all the large and semi-large Canadian cities with an NHL team before we go about giving one of them a 2nd team.

This. We've been pushing to get our team back since we lost it in the 1920's. Every time we come close and it ends in an upset.

[dennis1]

Except that the NFL is not limited to the 10 largest metros (Buffalo and Jacksonville are in the 40s), and neither is the CFL (Regina is 18th).

New York is something like 20 times the size of Buffalo and Jacksonville, and Toronto is like 25 times the size of Regina.

New York is also about 75 times the size of Green Bay.

And both Buffalo and Jacksonville are about 1.2 million each.

And yes there are people (like myself) who don't support the NFL's cap at all.

[caltrane74]

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/12/05/nhl-rich-keep-getting-richer/

The Leafs make a bigger profit than the New York Yankees on less than half the revenue!!

wow!