GTA Transit Thread [Archive] - SkyscraperPage Forum

Travis007

Dec 3, 2011, 7:50 PM

http://www.insidetoronto.com/news/local/article/1253317--bathurst-station-plans-unveiled-in-eglinton-scarborough-crosstown-open-house

Bathurst station plans unveiled in Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown open house

FANNIE SUNSHINE|Nov 29, 2011 - 3:02 PM

"Not all stations will look exactly the same, but they will have consistency," said Anna Pace, director of strategic partnerships with the Toronto Transit Commission. "They will pretty much all be the same size, but the architecture treatment will be different."

Bathurst station will be located at the northeast corner of Bathurst Street and Eglinton Avenue, with a secondary entrance located on the north side of Eglinton, just west of Bathurst.

The small plaza at the northeast corner, which houses several businesses including a coffee shop and convenience store, will be demolished to make way for the station. To allow for the secondary entrance, Israel's Judaica and House of Chan, which has been a staple in the area for more than 50 years, will also be knocked down. A third property, Halleluia Restaurant, which is situated between House of Chan and Israel's Judaica and is now vacant, will also be torn down.

According to Metrolinx and the TTC, properties are required for the secondary entrance because shafts must connect to the end of the station box, which is directly under these properties. Moving the station box east or west and relocating the secondary entrance would not reduce property requirements and would create greater construction impacts in the area and higher costs. Placing the secondary entrance on the south side of Eglinton Avenue would interfere with an existing condo application.

Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown is a 25-kilometre transit project connecting riders from Black Creek Drive to Scarborough City Centre.

The $8.4-billion project is funded by the province and owned by Metrolinx, a provincial agency created to co-ordinate and integrate all modes of transportation in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area. The TTC is developing the project on behalf of Metrolinx and will be responsible for project management, planning, design, engineering and community relations. The line will be underground from Black Creek Drive to Kennedy Road.

Construction work related to Bathurst station tunneling is scheduled to begin in 2013. Construction for the station itself will begin in 2014 and will last three to four years.

Travis007

Dec 3, 2011, 8:04 PM

BlogTO article with video showing preliminary designs of the proposed Eglinton Crosstown stations:

http://www.blogto.com/city/2011/11/crosstown_station_plan_unveiled_but_who_will_build_it/

Detailed slideshow:

http://www.slideshare.net/fullscreen/CrosstownTO/bathurst-station-preliminary-design-consultation-10372587/1#

Video on Youtube:

nsu92DDlryg

dennis1

Dec 3, 2011, 9:48 PM

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2011/12/02/toronto-york-region-transit-strike.html

The chair of York Region says he won't intervene in a six-week-old transit strike, though he wants both sides to reach a deal.

Speaking at a news conference in Newmarket, Ont., on Friday, Bill Fisch said the negotiations are up to the striking unions and the private companies that York Region contracts out its transit to.

"The contractors and the unions need to get together, have those discussions. There are offers on the table that have not been reviewed, and our position is that they need to go back to the table," Fisch said.

"At least talk! For six weeks, no one's even said a word. The people who are supposed to be doing that are not doing that…. That's what we are very, very upset about."

Nearly 600 drivers and maintenance staff at have been off the job since Oct. 24, affecting 50,000 commuters on more than 80 routes in Markham, Vaughan, Richmond Hill and northern York Region. The employees are from three contracted companies: First Student Canada, Miller Transit and Veolia Transportation, which runs York Region's Viva bus rapid transit service.

dennis1

Dec 3, 2011, 9:52 PM

http://www.caledonenterprise.com/community/caledon-a-commuting-community/

At Tuesday’s council meeting, councillors were presented a report on well-being.
And it was apparent, some of Caledon isn’t doing so well.
Ron Munro, vice chair of the Headwaters Communities in Action Group, and Sylvia Cheuy of Mandala Associates, consultants to the Headwaters Communities in Action, shared statistics that attacked the idea of complete communities and live/work in Caledon.
The Headwaters Community well-being report shows Caledon has a 75 per cent commuter rate.
But while some praised the report, Caledon’s mayor went on the defensive and questioned its accuracy.
“I had some questions,” said Mayor Marolyn Morrison. “I’m not positive some of it is correct.”
Asked to clarify, Morrison said Caledon showed more positive results in the Region of Peel comparators, and that led her to believe some of the Headwaters report may be inaccurate.
Ward 1 Area Councillor Doug Beffort called the report great and said other prominent politicians in Ontario have given it a resounding thumbs up.
“Through the work we’ve done on visioning in Caledon Village, a lot of the same issues kept coming up,” he told Cheuy. “I spoke with John Tory (former MPP for Dufferin-Caledon) about it, and he worked with it, and he said he felt it was one of the best reports he’d seen.”
Beffort went on to say he is excited to continue to work with a report that isolates so many of Caledon’s issues with Caledon specific statistics.

dennis1

Dec 6, 2011, 3:22 AM

As promised, striking transit workers are intensifying their efforts, picketing and slowing buses at three locations this morning.
The seventh week of a strike that has shut down 60 per cent of York Region Transit service kicked off with picketers slowing YRT and GO buses at Richmond Hill Centre, Finch Station and the Veolia transit garage in Vaughan.
They also picketed YRT headquarters, just across from Richmond Hill Centre, in the region’s south services building.
Earlier, the picketers allowed about one bus to leave every five minutes. This morning, however, buses were often waiting twice as long.
Transit officials tried to keep the wheels turning, loading Finch-bound buses on Yonge Street and Richmond Hill buses on nearby High Tech Road.

http://www.yorkregion.com/news/article/1257184--strikers-slow-buses-at-3-sites

dennis1

Dec 6, 2011, 3:29 AM

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/weblog/2011/12/05-crane_bloc.shtml

The City of Toronto is closing

Marine Parade Drive

to accommodate contractors who are lifting a crane onto a work site tomorrow, Tuesday, December 6 from 9 a.m. until 4 p.m.

The TTC is detouring buses operating along the 66D Prince Edward route, while the roadway is closed.

dennis1

Dec 6, 2011, 7:08 AM

http://www.thestar.com/news/transportation/article/1095133--riders-fear-public-private-eglinton-line-could-cost-more

Mayor Rob Ford supports a public-private partnership to build the Eglinton LRT. But transit advocates worry about higher fares and more complicated commutes if the private sector ends up running the line, too.

Ford believes the TTC should get out of the construction business and focus on service delivery, his policy advisor told reporters on Wednesday.

“The mayor thinks the minister (of transportation) has been a quick study on the file. He’s on the same wavelength,” said Mark Towhey.

But former TTC vice-chair Joe Mihevc said “balkanizing” Toronto transit “will serve no one.”

Tony

Dec 6, 2011, 2:08 PM

Any transit news in the GTA or Toronto Hamilton region should go here.

GTA municipality transit (York Region, Mississauga, Brampton, Milton, Oakville, Ajax-Pickering, Durham, TTC and GO is fair, but HSR should go to the Hamilton sub-forum). :)

dennis1

Dec 6, 2011, 5:05 PM

GTA municipality transit (York Region, Mississauga, Brampton, Milton, Oakville, Ajax-Pickering, Durham, TTC and GO is fair, but HSR should go to the Hamilton sub-forum). :)

Fair.

caltrane74

Dec 6, 2011, 5:07 PM

The Bathurst Station looks nice. Function over form.

Travis007

Dec 7, 2011, 4:57 AM

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/06/crosstown-transit-line-delayed-until-2022-as-scarborough-rt-set-to-close-for-four-years-beginning-2015/

Crosstown transit line may be delayed until 2022 as Scarborough RT set to close for four years beginning 2015

Megan O'Toole Dec 6, 2011 – 8:08 PM ET

A looming transit squeeze in Scarborough came under scrutiny at City Hall Tuesday, as the TTC warned the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown may not be up and running until 2022, a full two years later than planned.

The news comes as a significant portion of Scarborough residents brace for four years without any local rapid transit options, with the existing Kennedy-McCowan RT line falling out of service in 2015 for a massive, four-year upgrade. The RT will ultimately be part of the seamless Crosstown, running from Black Creek Drive in the city’s west end to Scarborough City Centre.

Earlier in the day, Mr. Webster suggested transit riders in the affected area of Scarborough were actually facing seven years without any form of rapid transit, indicating the RT would remain out of service until the full Crosstown was complete by 2022. But he corrected the record later Tuesday, noting the plan was being phased in to ensure the RT could reopen by 2019.

Metrolinx disputed Mr. Webster’s contention that the overall timeline for the Crosstown would have to be extended, maintaining the $8.4-billion project was still targeted for completion by late 2020.

Today, the Scarborough RT, which is fast approaching the end of its useful life, has six trains that operate every four minutes. At peak hours it moves between 4,500 and 5,000 people each hour; Mr. Webster estimated it would take about 30 buses, running more frequently, to move the same number. The TTC has budgeted for the additional buses, he said.

ssiguy

Dec 7, 2011, 6:59 AM

How in hell is it going to take 4 years to upgrade a puny little 6km transit line?! Wish I was bidding on that contract.
How is it that Vancouver is going to be building a new 11km SkyTrain line with 6 new stations including 2km of tunneled section in just 30 months and Toronto will take 4 years to lay new track? No land to buy, no inderground infrastructure to move, no stations to build but is still going to take 4 years. Calgary's new 6km West LRT line which is nearly completely grade separated using tunnels and huge elevated sections if taking just 3 years to build.
4 months I could accept but 4 years is an obscene waste of time and money.
Heads should be rolling over this!

dennis1

Dec 7, 2011, 1:58 PM

miketoronto

Dec 7, 2011, 4:46 PM

Its a Toronto thing, it always takes forever here.

However the RT closure could mean easier commutes for Scarborough riders, if our local buses that terminate at Scarborough Centre, continue onto Kennedy. Then we would not have to transfer.

dennis1

Dec 8, 2011, 4:56 PM

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2011/12/08/ttc-fare-increase.html

The TTC will consider adding a nickel to a proposed 10 cent fare hike as a way to maintain current service levels into next year.

M II A II R II K

Dec 8, 2011, 4:56 PM

Karen Stintz and Rob Ford’s TTC problem: there are too many riders

December 6th, 2011

Read More: http://fordfortoronto.mattelliott.ca/2011/12/06/too-much-ridership/

In 2002, the average Toronto resident paid $128.71 on their property tax bill to support TTC operations. In terms of net funding, transit came sixth, lagging behind Police, Housing, Fire, Debt Charges & Social Services. Per capita, transit’s level of financial support was barely above Transportation Services — the department responsible for building roads and maintaining highways. Annual ridership that year was 415 million, down four million from the year before. By 2011, that same average Toronto resident was now paying $337.95 to support transit. The TTC had transformed into a top priority, now following only the police as the largest recipient of net municipal spending. Ridership this year is estimated at 497 million. The TTC has added almost 100 million annual riders over the last decade.

This wasn’t accidental, nor is it an example of out-of-control spending. In 2003, the TTC launched a Ridership Growth Strategy, which was approved by council in 2004. (Voting against: Mike Del Grande, Doug Holyday, Norm Kelly, Giorgio Mammoliti & David Shiner. Rob Ford was absent for the vote.) Representing the first major public investment in transit since the 1980s, the strategy — even if never completely implemented — has seen ridership grow to levels never before seen in Toronto’s history. More notably, this ridership growth proved resilient even in the face of a weakening job market. What the RGS was successful in doing was creating a climate where more people relied on transit as a primary means of getting around the city. Last year’s TTC budget report described this phenomenon.

Over the long-term, changes in City of Toronto employment levels have tracked quite closely to to TTC ridership changes … However, starting in 2009, City of Toronto employment starting to drop but ridership continued to grow. Only in recent months (January 2011) have employment levels reflected growth over the same period in 2009. Favourable weather conditions last winter and economic uncertainty for riders have undoubtedly contributed to these strong ridership results. The large service improvements implemented in late 2008 have also prompted the growth as the service on the street more closely matches the service hours of the subway, giving riders far more choice in transit options.

.....

TTC Operating Budget vs. Ridership: http://fordfortoronto.mattelliott.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/TTC-ridership-budget.jpg

http://fordfortoronto.mattelliott.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Screen-Shot-2011-12-06-at-11.05.06-AM.png

M II A II R II K

Dec 13, 2011, 4:36 PM

Sheppard subway partnership ‘doable,’ but up to $10-million extra needed

Dec. 12, 2011

By Elizabeth Church

Read More: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/sheppard-subway-partnership-doable-but-up-to-10-million-extra-needed/article2268954/

The man charged with making Mayor Rob Ford’s Sheppard subway plan a reality says a private-sector partnership appears “doable,” but he’ll need as much as $10-million more for technical studies, and another year, to know for sure. Gordon Chong said his findings will be made public in February when they go to executive committee and city council. After that, his job will be done, he said, without the infusion of more money.

- “City council is going to have to decide whether it is worthwhile proceeding,” he said Monday, estimating it will take between $5-million and $10-million to complete the work required before bids are taken from the private sector. “It doesn’t matter whether it comes from the city, the province or Ottawa. We need more money,” he said.

.....

“City council is going to have to decide whether it is worthwhile proceeding,” he said Monday, estimating it will take between $5-million and $10-million to complete the work required before bids are taken from the private sector. “It doesn’t matter whether it comes from the city, the province or Ottawa. We need more money,” he said.

http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/01262/web-gordon-chon_1262836cl-8.jpg

dennis1

Dec 13, 2011, 7:23 PM

This will be a big blow to Ford if he fails this.

Tony

Dec 14, 2011, 12:36 AM

This will be a big blow to Ford if he fails this.

Yeah right. As if his A.D.D. hardcore supporters really care about a subway over the appearance of more money in their pockets from tax cuts. :rolleyes:

dennis1

Dec 14, 2011, 1:45 AM

Yeah right. As if his A.D.D. hardcore supporters really care about a subway over the appearance of more money in their pockets from tax cuts. :rolleyes:

There are not enough of them. Too many people are mad, he is a one and done canidate as long as we can find someone suitable(maybe you Tony?) because Adam Vaughan will not cut it.

M II A II R II K

Dec 14, 2011, 5:43 PM

Cost of cancelling Transit City could hit $65-million

Dec. 13, 2011

By Elizabeth Church

Read More: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/cost-of-cancelling-transit-city-could-hit-65-million/article2270358/

Just as Mayor Rob Ford is trying to squeeze every penny out of Toronto’s budget, news comes that the city is bracing for a $65-million bill for a transit plan he cancelled on his first day in office. The multimillion-dollar price tag is the latest estimate for cancelling the Sheppard and Finch light-rail lines – part of former mayor David Miller’s Transit City plan. It comes as the city’s transit users are facing fare hikes and reduced service, measures planned for the new year to meet the mayor’s demands for a 10-per-cent budget cut. The new expense surfaced Tuesday during budget discussions, where city councillors also weighed the merits of closing pools and community centres in order to save dollars.

The cost of the cancelled lines is not even included in those discussions. The outstanding expense to the struggling transit system is not part of next year’s budget because the city is still waiting for a bill from the province. “We haven’t received an invoice,” TTC general manager Gary Webster told the city’s budget committee when asked about the missing charge. Metrolinx, the province’s transit agency, has put the cost at $65-million, he said. The provincial agency said it is working on the final figure. “Currently, we are still reviewing the costs with the TTC and our light-rail vehicle supplier. It is important for us to be as accurate as possible,” said a Metrolinx spokeswoman in a statement.

.....

bDn4SStsKvA

Tony

Dec 14, 2011, 8:09 PM

There are not enough of them. Too many people are mad, he is a one and done canidate as long as we can find someone suitable(maybe you Tony?) because Adam Vaughan will not cut it.

lol, I thought about this for like a good 10 minutes last year. Think about how awesome it would look on your resume for it to simply say "City of Toronto Mayoral Candidate 2010". All for what.. a couple hundred bucks?

dennis1

Dec 14, 2011, 9:58 PM

lol, I thought about this for like a good 10 minutes last year. Think about how awesome it would look on your resume for it to simply say "City of Toronto Mayoral Candidate 2010". All for what.. a couple hundred bucks?

I wanted to. But I have no work experience, and I don't think I could right out of school. I need work experience. And I live in Oakville (for now)

osmo

Dec 15, 2011, 1:38 PM

Cost of cancelling Transit City could hit $65-million

Dec. 13, 2011

By Elizabeth Church

Read More: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/cost-of-cancelling-transit-city-could-hit-65-million/article2270358/

Who is really surprised? Another lie out of the Ford camp. I am convinced this man had a agenda from day 1 to literally put the TTC on its dying knees. I can't believe somebody to truly be this incompetent when it comes to public transit. I believe this is a stunt simply because him and his mouthpieces have agreed to raise fares and cut service. I don't care what your views are on transit, from a business standpoint its suicide. People will take one of them to an extreme but not both.

This man is a goon, and if Toronto keeps playing nice and does not start pushing back he will bury our City further. The press now is starting to spit out the kool-aid, all sides are not giving him the slack anymore. Even Sun News writes critical pieces of Ford no and then. Its time for the general public to step up also.

caltrane74

Dec 19, 2011, 1:07 AM

Signage along Toronto's Highway 7 obviously promoting the construction of the VIVA Rapidway (busway):
http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_7_images/7_sign_viva_propoganda_forum.jpg

From sonysnob - photo of poster promoting ViVa busway.

Tony

Dec 19, 2011, 9:05 PM

Daily GO service to Kitchener, Guelph, begins
12/19/2011 (Erin Criger, CityNews.ca)

Commuters in Kitchener and Guelph will have an easier time getting to Toronto, but they may not necessarily arrive on time.

The Georgetown GO train line has been extended, meaning there is now daily GO service to both towns.

Two trains left Kitchener in the morning, and hit Guelph and then Georgetown before continuing to Union Station.

http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/news/local/article/175911--daily-go-service-to-kitchener-guelph-begins

dennis1

Dec 20, 2011, 6:52 PM

So Can City Council force a vote on Transit city?

caltrane74

Dec 20, 2011, 8:59 PM

goodthings

Dec 21, 2011, 4:32 AM

Just to update, my office is in Mississauga and everyday it looks like progress is being made on the Busway that will run right past my office building. - Too bad I live in toronto otherwise I might have gotten a chance to use it.

Main benefit is for the peeps in Mississauga.

The surprising thing is that there is already full-force construction beside Eglinton Avenue (I think the action right now is at Orbitor/Centennial Park) even though the contract for it has not been released at all.

Andrewjm3D

Dec 21, 2011, 7:23 AM

http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_7_images/7_sign_viva_propoganda_forum.jpg

Is that a possible bike lane? Even Richmond Hill seems more forward thinking then our dumb-ass mayor and his stooge crew.

dennis1

Dec 22, 2011, 2:15 AM

Is that what the Transit city stations would have looked like?

Vertigo3000

Dec 22, 2011, 2:39 AM

Rob Ford is the worst thing to happen to toronto since hurricane Hazel

M II A II R II K

Jan 5, 2012, 6:07 PM

Rob Ford’s war on public transit

Dec 30 2011

Read More: http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1109029

Bungled and botched policies are hallmarks of the Ford administration, but no file has been more badly mishandled at Toronto City Hall than public transit. The impact of that failure hits riders starting Sunday, when a 10-cent fare increase kicks in. But that marks only the beginning of their woes in the coming year, and beyond, thanks to Mayor Rob Ford. On taking office last December, Ford forthrightly declared his goal of making life easier for motorists, announcing: “The war on the car is over.” Left unsaid — but made clear by subsequent events — was that a war on public transit had begun. The 10-cent fare hike is part of the onslaught. Yes, there have been plenty of fare increases in the past, including under Ford’s predecessor, David Miller. But Miller raised fares while expanding public transit and giving riders more for their money. The Ford administration is doing the opposite

- Even some of the mayor’s supporters now recognize that burying the entire 20-kilometre length of the Eglinton line would be a mistake. The original Transit City plan called for putting about 11 kilometres underground, in the most built-up sections of Toronto’s downtown. It was correctly felt that beyond this zone there would be ample space on Eglinton to accommodate both surface light rail and car traffic. But that wasn’t good enough for Ford. His burial plan almost doubles the cost of the Eglinton light rail line, to more than $8 billion, while providing fewer stops for commuters. Riders are shortchanged. But never mind: it’s more convenient for drivers. Ford’s flawed vision for public transit involves replacing another planned light rail line, the Sheppard East route, with a subway. The problem there is that Toronto doesn’t have an extra $4 billion to build a Sheppard subway. No worries, says Ford; the private sector will cover most of that.

- The bottom line: Ford rashly took a comprehensive and provincially funded transit plan and tore it up in favour of building a subway the city doesn’t need (the entirely underground Eglinton line) and a subway it can’t afford (the Sheppard line). Because the switch involved cancelling several already-signed contracts, it’s going to cost an estimated $65 million in penalties. That’s another $65 million that could have been invested in public transit but is instead being thrown away. Outraged? Relax, motorists still get their tax cut. It’s now clear that Ford’s approach consists of little more than telling people what they want to hear, regardless of the facts. His simplistic and repeated denial of reality is an understandable strategy, given that it got him elected. But reality has a nasty way of making itself felt over the long run. The real pity is that a great deal of damage has already been done. And those in line for future pain are this city’s hard-pressed transit riders.

.....

The_Architect

Jan 9, 2012, 2:47 PM

Ford is the transit equivalent of the Nazis. He's single-handedly putting Toronto back a decade or worse. If we had another term of Miller we would already have the Eglinton line under construction and many other lines in the EA process. Now we have one line that will be a billion dollars more expensive than it needs to be, won't be done for 10 years, and no other lines realistically on the way, all while having desperate bus routes CUT.

The only thing that will save the city now is full scale coup.

Travis007

Jan 21, 2012, 3:04 PM

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/union-station-remake-aims-to-be-another-jewel-in-torontos-crown/article2310330/

Union Station remake aims to be another jewel in Toronto’s crown

IAN HARVEY
From Saturday's Globe and Mail
Published Friday, Jan. 20, 2012 9:21PM EST

http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/01365/WEB-unionstatio_1365310cl-8.jpg

The remaking of Union Station is set to refresh the venerable but dowdy transit hub by 2015. Its crown will be a spectacular $50-million, 70,000-square-foot atrium of steel and glass that will float like a luminous cloud 50 feet over the train tracks.

The overall renovation will see a new concourse and offices with more light, exits and space in anticipation of the 50 million passengers a year who use the 180 GO trains, 35 VIA Rail trains and 400 GO buses daily. Those passenger volumes are expected to hit 80 million per annum by 2035.

The designers of the new atrium, Zeidler Partnership Architects senior partner Tarek El-Khatib and his team, say they were inspired by the existing windows at Union Station, which opened in 1927 and is a designated a heritage building.

Eventually Mr. El-Khatib and his team came up with a bold and innovative concept, eschewing the ubiquitous arch for a square, flat canopy held up by elegant steel columns slanting vertically.

There will be a total 220,000 square feet of glass making up the top and sides, which hang down to create sidewalls and louvres that will vent diesel fumes.

There will also be a green roof component and an array of solar panels that will generate electricity to offset the power consumed by the thousands of LED lights that will be embedded in the canopy. At nighttime its glow will be visible for miles, including to those on the Gardiner Expressway, in office towers and condominium high rises downtown and passengers on airplanes in and out of the Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport and, sometimes, Lester B. Pearson International Airport.

In all, there are some 4,500 glass panels about to be installed, each some seven feet square, and each one having a slightly different opaqueness to give it a “dappled” look in daylight.

The atrium will be constructed over seven stages with the first-stage trusses going into place now through spring, with the glass to follow. Construction is expected to finish in 2014 with the overall project wrapping up a year later.

M II A II R II K

Jan 23, 2012, 5:16 PM

TTC head favours surface LRT on suburban stretch of Eglinton

Jan. 23, 2012

By Adrian Morrow

Read More: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/ttc-head-favours-surface-lrt-on-suburban-stretch-of-eglinton/article2311140/

.....

Karen Stintz argues it makes more sense to put the LRT underground only along the most congested part of the route, in midtown, while building it on the surface in the spacious suburbs. “If the decision is to go with an LRT, it should be at-grade,” she said. “If there’s a decision to put it underground, it should be a subway.”

- Any rethink on the line, however, would lead to further delays. Metrolinx, the provincial agency building the LRT, has little desire to change course. Renegotiating the plan between the city and province would take time and some already completed design work would have to be redone. Upgrading to a full subway would force Metrolinx to cancel a contract for light-rail cars.

- As a result, the province is forging ahead with a plan that draws fire from one side for falling short of a subway and from the other for sucking up precious transit dollars that could be used to expand the network elsewhere. Last month, Councillor John Parker, normally an ally of Mr. Ford’s, dubbed the plan “goofy.”

- It is also unprecedented in North America. While numerous cities – Boston, Guadalajara and Edmonton, to name three – put parts of their light-rail systems underground, the tunnels are used to get trains through dense downtowns, not suburbia like Eglinton East.

- Critics of surface light rail argue such systems can’t achieve the same speeds as a subway, but this is not necessarily true. On Martin Luther King Jr. Way South in suburban Seattle – an arterial road similar to Eglinton Ave. East – light-rail trains zip along just as quickly as Toronto’s Yonge-University-Spadina line. The reason? Stations are spaced far apart and traffic lights are controlled to ensure trains don’t have to stop at cross streets.

.....

http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/01307/Stintz_JPG_1307561cl-8.jpg

M II A II R II K

Jan 23, 2012, 11:43 PM

Under the original setup it could work something like this...

H-Yzds_n8Vo#t=1m15s

Dwils01

Jan 24, 2012, 10:10 PM

I think that one of you guys from Toronto should run for mayor, you would know what to do with the transit issues. This thread has become a bitch about Ford thread now, like most of the other ones.

Any candidates?

Andrewjm3D

Jan 24, 2012, 10:23 PM

Under the original setup it could work something like this...

H-Yzds_n8Vo#t=1m15s

Much nicer then staring out at a concrete wall eh?

M II A II R II K

Jan 24, 2012, 11:15 PM

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/north-american-light-rail-systems/article2311004/?from=2311140

http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/01365/nw-Eglinton-LRT21_1365549a.jpg

haljackey

Jan 25, 2012, 12:04 AM

Ya I don't get it. If you're going through the trouble to dig an underground tunnel, why not just make it a subway? Putting LRT in a tunnel is a waste of money and potential.

Do you know if the line could be retrofitted at a later date to convert it to a subway?

M II A II R II K

Jan 25, 2012, 5:37 PM

A new Toronto transit proposal delivers more bang for the $8.2 billion buck

Jan 24 2012

Read More: http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1120946--a-new-toronto-transit-proposal-delivers-more-bang-for-the-8-2-billion-buck?bn=1

Commuters on Finch Ave. could have a new busway in less than three years and shovels could be in the ground on the Eglinton LRT and Sheppard subway by 2014. A new transit proposal from TTC chair Karen Stintz that would kick-start construction on three new transit lines using already-committed provincial dollars was gaining support Tuesday among councillors, particularly those in the increasingly powerful political middle.

- Instead of allocating $8.2 billion in provincial funds to tunnel the entire length of the Eglinton light rail line, the transit would run above-ground east of Laird Dr., freeing up between $1.5 billion and $2 billion for other projects. The savings could then be applied to bus rapid transit on Finch, where it would improve service to the city’s underserved northwest until funding could be found to install light rail there. It could also jump-start Mayor Rob Ford’s plan for a Sheppard subway extension by paying for a new stop at Victoria Park. That would cost about $1 billion, including station construction, according to one TTC source.

- Ford could then use whatever private funding he raises to push the subway east to the Scarborough Civic Centre and west to Downsview station, as originally hoped. Stintz believes she has a majority of councillors on-side if the proposal goes to a vote in February or March. If the province were agreeable, work on all three lines could begin immediately, she said. Metrolinx CEO Bruce McCuaig said Monday that the province is awaiting a clear statement from the mayor or council on which projects the city wants to pursue. Stintz’s plan resembles a slimmed-down version of the old Transit City plan, but no one’s using that name for fear of antagonizing the mayor.

.....

http://media.thestar.topscms.com/images/38/55/cb7cfc6c412aabab352a61761001.jpg

M II A II R II K

Jan 26, 2012, 4:59 PM

Rob Ford still wants to build a subway

January 26th, 2012

By Robyn Doolittle

Read More: http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1121729--rob-ford-still-wants-to-build-a-subway?bn=1

As the majority of councillors line-up behind a transit compromise along Eglinton Ave., Mayor Rob Ford said he still wants to build subways. “Scarborough residents voted me in to build subways and I’m building subways,” he told the National Post Thursday night. “I’ll do exactly what the provincial government wants to do. Last time I checked they’re going to build subways. It’s started, it’s going, and I do what the taxpayers of Scarborough want … not above ground.”

His comments came despite the fact that many of the mayor’s own allies are pushing him to accept TTC chair Karen Stintz’s new proposal, which would see parts of a planned underground LRT along Eglinton Ave. moved street side. The change would free up as much as $2 billion, which could be used to extend the Sheppard subway line at least one stop and add some form of rapid transit along Finch Ave. W. “Both the mayor and I are working collaboratively and are committed to extending the Sheppard subway,” Stintz said Wednesday. Her proposal is a way to pay for that, she said. Gordon Chong, the man Ford tasked with finding private dollars to build the Sheppard line, is expected to soon conclude the money isn’t there.

.....

http://media.thestar.topscms.com/images/3b/5d/e974f98d4bb88a19df19fd127c6f.jpg

haljackey

Jan 26, 2012, 8:29 PM

I wonder if the Sheppard "Stubway" will ever become a subway. It needs east and west extensions to operate optimally and will have a huge return on investment once complete.

isaidso

Jan 27, 2012, 8:44 AM

Good. I want subways too, none of these compromise solutions that don't address the real transit needs of Torontonians. This city needs subway, not LRT.

losername

Jan 27, 2012, 11:56 AM

It needs subways downtown, not in the suburbs or to the suburbs. A subway on Shepard is a complete waste of money as is one in Scarb. and Vaughan.

ssiguy

Jan 28, 2012, 8:47 AM

Toronto doesn't neccesarily need any technology but it does need huge grade separation. Whether that be taking advantage of it's huge rail ROW system like electrifying the Pearson Rail Link, adding stations to it and making it part of the standard Metro system, elevating tracks, trenches, using Hyrdro ROW etc.
I really don't understand how Toronto got this idea that something either has to be tunneled or at complete street level. It does, however, explain how Toronto has expanded it's rapid transit at a blisstering 2km/decade over the last 30 years.
Pathetic.

miketoronto

Jan 28, 2012, 5:00 PM

It needs subways downtown, not in the suburbs or to the suburbs. A subway on Shepard is a complete waste of money as is one in Scarb. and Vaughan.

Toronto's transit success has actually stemmed from the suburbs for the most part, and the expansion of transit in the suburbs.

The suburban subway stations generate a huge percentage of Toronto's subway ridership. So the excuse the suburbs can't support grade separated transit is just false and is not how Toronto became a transit success.

Kennedy, Warden, and Victoria Park subway stations in Scarborough, generate over: 120,000 trips a day.

The Yonge Subway north of Lawrence, carries over 223,000 riders a day.

Even the much complained about Spadina line, carries over 104,000 riders a day on the stretch north of Lawrence West.

Subway ridership on Sheppard is approaching 50,000 riders a day. Hardly little usage for a not even half finished subway.

dennis1

Jan 29, 2012, 5:11 PM

Look, Transit city will come back in some form. Either Ford accept's it nowon has it forced by him later.

and no isaidso, the city does not need subways when the density is not there.

miketoronto

Jan 30, 2012, 4:15 AM

Look, Transit city will come back in some form. Either Ford accept's it nowon has it forced by him later.

and no isaidso, the city does not need subways when the density is not there.

If they used that logic in the 50's, Finch Ave would have a bus running every hour today, if it even got a bus at all. After all in the 50's the density of suburban Toronto was considered too low to operate bus service. The TTC went against this common thinking to great success.

What I would like answered is more detailed ridership figures. I find it troubling that $8 billion on Transit City Lines is going to generate something like 300,000 or 400,000 riders a day on over 120 km of track.
But just the Eglinton line alone if grade separated would carry that amount on only 25 km of track.

Something is not right. Why spend $8 billion if it is not even going to attract people? We have to have these questions answered.

dennis1

Jan 30, 2012, 5:25 AM

If they used that logic in the 50's, Finch Ave would have a bus running every hour today, if it even got a bus at all. After all in the 50's the density of suburban Toronto was considered too low to operate bus service. The TTC went against this common thinking to great success.

What I would like answered is more detailed ridership figures. I find it troubling that $8 billion on Transit City Lines is going to generate something like 300,000 or 400,000 riders a day on over 120 km of track.
But just the Eglinton line alone if grade separated would carry that amount on only 25 km of track.

Something is not right. Why spend $8 billion if it is not even going to attract people? We have to have these questions answered.

In fairness, Today is different. Why should Downtown be subsidizing NewtownBrook and York Mills?

For TC, we get more lines for less.

miketoronto

Jan 31, 2012, 1:00 AM

In fairness, Today is different. Why should Downtown be subsidizing NewtownBrook and York Mills?

For TC, we get more lines for less.

Because we are one city, and the success of transit relies on all residents having access to transit. Not just downtown.

We may get more lines for less with TC. But we are not getting more riders.

Andrewjm3D

Jan 31, 2012, 6:41 PM

In fairness, Today is different. Why should Downtown be subsidizing NewtownBrook and York Mills?

For TC, we get more lines for less.

I 100% agree, places like Scarbourough and Etobicoke will see better bang for our buck using TC. And surface rail along streets out in the windswept burbs down their football filed wide roads will encourage a more human scale environment that will attract businesses and residents. A subway line won't do that.

Dwils01

Feb 2, 2012, 10:46 PM

I do like streetcars but sometimes I find them a little inconvenient mostly because they can't get around stopped vehicles. But I hope they stay for a long time because it's a part of Toronto's history.
http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m498/DWils01/Toronto%20Ontario/019-3.jpg

Photo by me from Tuesday January 31, 2012.

miketoronto

Feb 3, 2012, 4:16 AM

I 100% agree, places like Scarbourough and Etobicoke will see better bang for our buck using TC. And surface rail along streets out in the windswept burbs down their football filed wide roads will encourage a more human scale environment that will attract businesses and residents. A subway line won't do that.

It shows how many times people come out to the suburbs.

Toronto's suburbs actually have pretty narrow roads compared to most other North American suburban areas.

Yes there are portions where the roads get into 6 lane territory. However even in those situations, there is usually no medians, and the roads are pretty narrow.

The norm in suburban Toronto however, is 4 lane arterial roads, with left turning lanes in sections.

So the idea that us suburbanites live on these huge wide wides, is actually not very true.

Here is Finch Ave. See not that wide at all.
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ll=43.760835,-79.500911&spn=0.010569,0.022724&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=43.760803,-79.501087&panoid=2qT2BO7cbfULJWJvoVUMmg&cbp=12,255.72,,0,-3.48

In fact I would bet that Toronto's small arterial roads are partly the result of the good bus service on these streets. If these streets had to handle the 30,000-50,000 extra car trips a day that these bus routes remove from stretches of each of these major east-west roads, I bet the roads would be a lot wider.

M II A II R II K

Feb 3, 2012, 4:35 AM

Toronto transit: How to pay for the Sheppard subway

Feb 02 2012

By Michael Woods

Read More: http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1125621

.....

(All estimates are over 50 years.)

Tax increment financing: This is a method municipalities use to leverage the future lift in property value that comes from building transit or other amenities in a particular area. The city borrows against future tax windfalls from subway-area properties whose value increases. The report says such financing could produce up to $6 billion along the Sheppard-Scarborough-Eglinton corridors in a “high-growth scenario.”

Development charges: The city levies development charges for residential buildings at the building permit stage, but not industrial buildings. Changing the policy to apply charges to non-residential development could bring in $2.87 billion.

City-owned development revenues: The average estimate for the land value of city-owned properties in the Sheppard and Eglinton corridors is $207 million.

Road pricing: Revenues could also come from charging drivers, such as zone-based tolls, expressway tolls, tolls charged to solo drivers who want to use car pool lanes, and vehicle-kilometre-travelled fees. Those could bring in anywhere from $2 billion for HOV tolls to $153.6 billion from vehicle-kilometre-travelled fees. Overall, conservative estimates for tolls total $93 billion; aggressive estimates total $230 billion.

Parking fees: The report says charging more for parking could generate as much as $28.9 billion. A parking-space levy could generate as much as $19.7 billion; a parking sales tax would generate anywhere from $2.3 billion to $9.2 billion, it says.

Taxes: New taxes, such as a regional sales tax, gas tax, passenger vehicle tax or special payroll tax could also raise money — ranging from $700 million from the vehicle tax to $59.1 billion from a payroll tax. Conservative estimates for all four taxes total $80 billion; aggressive estimates add up to twice that amount.

.....

The dream of building a Sheppard extension and more subway lines will come at a significant cost in new tolls, taxes and fees, according to Gordon Chong's report.

http://media.thestar.topscms.com/images/68/5c/04d23d9d446dbbc613a3019bf556.jpg

Andrewjm3D

Feb 3, 2012, 4:02 PM

It shows how many times people come out to the suburbs.

Toronto's suburbs actually have pretty narrow roads compared to most other North American suburban areas.

Yes there are portions where the roads get into 6 lane territory. However even in those situations, there is usually no medians, and the roads are pretty narrow.

The norm in suburban Toronto however, is 4 lane arterial roads, with left turning lanes in sections.

So the idea that us suburbanites live on these huge wide wides, is actually not very true.

Here is Finch Ave. See not that wide at all.
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ll=43.760835,-79.500911&spn=0.010569,0.022724&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=43.760803,-79.501087&panoid=2qT2BO7cbfULJWJvoVUMmg&cbp=12,255.72,,0,-3.48

In fact I would bet that Toronto's small arterial roads are partly the result of the good bus service on these streets. If these streets had to handle the 30,000-50,000 extra car trips a day that these bus routes remove from stretches of each of these major east-west roads, I bet the roads would be a lot wider.

Typical miketoronto view on Scarborough. Always looking at it through rose coloured glasses. If you think I don't know Scarborough and have no idea what it's main roads look like then you are sadly mistaken. Your example of Finch is pretty funny. I suggest others look at it as well. Notice where the sidewalks are, and how wide the the grass section is between it and the road. They could easily fit in 4 more lanes of traffic there which is why they put the sidewalks where they did. If Finch is your best example, and I'm sure it is your argument about Scarborough being quaint with narrow roads has been quashed. Also notice the lack of pedestrians. Count them all if you can.

Shepphard, Finch, Eglignton, Kingston, Morningside, McCowan, Markham, Kennedy, Warden, Woodbine, Victoria Park, all your main roads, all are unfriendly environments for pedestrians to use. Scarborough offers almost zero in the way of human scale infrastructure. In all the years I've seen you post I have yet to witness you show Scarborough to be anything but a heaven for the automobile.

Shepperd should be completed as heavy rail seeing as it makes no sense to switch to LRT on either end of Lastmans screwup, but the rest should be at grade LRT outside of the core. How do you think they will get a subway across the Don Valley Parkway to East York and Scarborough? And who will pay for it.

telyou

Feb 3, 2012, 5:04 PM

miketoronto

Feb 3, 2012, 11:10 PM

Why do suburbanites think their special and deserve such great mass transit?

Because the future of transit lies in the suburbs.

And just because there is grass on each side of the road, does not mean you can automatically fit in LRT tracks. Unless they are elevated, you would get into the issue of the trains having to go much too slow, because of issues with hitting people or cars who get onto the tracks somehow. Unless you want chain linked fences lining our main roads.

M II A II R II K

Feb 6, 2012, 3:49 AM

Mayor Rob Ford’s transit plan under fire

Feb 05 2012

By Tess Kalinowski

Read More: http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1126610--mayor-rob-ford-s-transit-plan-under-fire

About 120 respected academics and civic leaders are urging Toronto city councillors to overturn Mayor Rob Ford’s transportation plans or risk crippling the city’s transit planning for the next century. Among those calling for an end to what they say is a “war on common sense,” are U of T Cities Centre Director Eric Miller; planning consultant and author Ken Greenberg; former Toronto chief planner Paul Bedford and former mayor David Crombie. Many of the players are the same city leaders who rallied last year against Councillor Doug Ford’s plan to put a Ferris wheel and shopping mall on the east waterfront.

- They now say the mayor’s determination to tunnel the east end of the Eglinton LRT is a waste of billions of dollars that will deprive tens of thousands of daily commuters in other areas of Toronto of rapid transit for years to come. “No private sector firm would be so wasteful in its use of company resources,” says the group’s letter, which also urges the city to restore plans for LRTs on Sheppard and Finch avenues. “Clearly we’re deeply concerned,” said Greenberg. The letter coincides with a plan by councillors to take the transit debate to a special meeting of council this week where Ford’s refusal to compromise on Eglinton could become the latest in a series of mayoral defeats.

- Sunday’s letter to council comes as a study from environmental think-tank Pembina Institute, also shows the previous Transit City light rail plan would be more effective in moving people and reducing pollution than either Ford’s underground plans for Eglinton and Sheppard or a compromise transit plan proposed earlier by TTC chair Karen Stintz. “Subways are not trophies but a tool to be used very judiciously,” warned Greenberg, who urged Torontonians to consider that leading cities around the world are building LRTs and bus rapid transit. “There’s no war on cars. What we are seeing is a war on common sense,” he said, citing a move by the mayor’s allies on the TTC board last week preventing the release of a report looking at the pros and cons of the mayor’s Eglinton plan.

- Those arguing for subways regardless of their potential ridership and cost, said Greenberg, are “people hanging on desperately to a mid-20th Century way of life where driving is the be all and end all.” What people want is good transit, with the reliability and frequencies of subways, said Miller. LRT can provide that on a separate right-of-way where it doesn’t compete with the traffic that hinders the downtown streetcars. “Burying the eastern portion of Eglinton is simply a waste of money,” he said. Putting the entire $8.4 billion that the province has committed to Toronto into Eglinton creates “one gold-plated line in one corner of the city,” said Miller. The alternative, a return to an earlier plan to run it underground only on the narrower, congested stretch of Eglinton, between about Black Creek and Laird, would save about $2 billion.

.....

Wharn

Feb 6, 2012, 6:12 PM

Why do suburbanites think their special and deserve such great mass transit?

Well first of all, there's more of us than there are of you. Toronto's inner suburbs have a combined population of about 1.7 million people (includes York, Etobicoke, Scarborough and North York), which leaves about 800,000 people in the core (I consider East York part of the core. It was never a true suburb). So I would think that we deserve some suitable mass transit options as well, thank you very much.

Second of all, we have all been amalgamated into one giant, schizophrenic city with multiple needs and multiple personalities. So until we de-amalgamate and allow the municipalities to freely compete, we all have obligations to each other. Trust me, we're not extremely fond of paying to rebuild streetcar tracks or 120-year-old water pipes, but it can't be helped.

The norm in suburban Toronto however, is 4 lane arterial roads, with left turning lanes in sections.

So the idea that us suburbanites live on these huge wide wides, is actually not very true.

Exactly. Anyone who generalizes Toronto's inner suburbs as a windswept land of 8-lane arterials with no sidewalks and no street frontage has obviously never spent much time there. Points of interest may be few and far between, but that's what bikes are for.

Now, places like Vaughan and Richmond Hill... that's a different story.

haljackey

Feb 6, 2012, 7:50 PM

The Toronto region as a whole is 2.5x denser than the average North American city. Toronto and Greater Toronto's suburbs are in fact quite dense, but with some exceptions as Wharn stated.

This density warrants better transit, mostly along the lines of light rail. However, Toronto's communities continue to get denser, with large apartment blocks replacing homes.

With a little foresight, building subways/RT now will ensure there won't be as many transit deficiencies in the long term as Toronto continues to intensify.

dennis1

Feb 6, 2012, 7:55 PM

dennis1

Feb 6, 2012, 7:57 PM

Looks like TC will be back on wednesday.

Wharn

Feb 7, 2012, 12:54 AM

-Signed a guy in Oakville.

...the land of the Range Rover.

Which of course would make you the authoritative source for transit policy in North York and Scarborough.

Dwils01

Feb 7, 2012, 1:09 AM

Union Station Revitalization
http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m498/DWils01/Toronto%20Ontario/042-4.jpg

Pic by me from Sunday February 05, 2012.

Andrewjm3D

Feb 7, 2012, 1:35 AM

Looks like TC will be back on wednesday.

:cheers:

dennis1

Feb 7, 2012, 8:54 PM

:cheers:

Council is 25 votes strong. Too Bad.

Andrewjm3D

Feb 7, 2012, 8:58 PM

Council is 25 votes strong. Too Bad.

So?

dennis1

Feb 7, 2012, 9:21 PM

So?

Too Bad for Ford.:D

miketoronto

Feb 7, 2012, 10:53 PM

Then don't buy a house at Islington and Steeles and expect to get home within 15 min. Have kids? Too bad. It is your choice to live like so many suburbanites say so make due. It can't that whay well you feel like it

-Signed a guy in Oakville.

And that is why transit will fail, if we have people talking like this.

The alternative is people will just drive. Don't accommodate that guy on Islington, and you think he will care? No, he will just hop in a car.
And in a city the size of Toronto, having people living 15 KM from the city centre is not far out in the North American context.

Andrewjm3D

Feb 8, 2012, 12:42 AM

Well according to Ford, his supporters, and Transit City haters TC will make commuting by car hell on earth thus forcing people onto transit. So would this not make people want to take transit? Anyway we shouldn't be funding an underground LRT out to Scarborough when we can fund multiple LRT routes across the entire city including Scarberia.

Wharn

Feb 8, 2012, 4:31 AM

Well according to Ford, his supporters, and Transit City haters TC will make commuting by car hell on earth thus forcing people onto transit. So would this not make people want to take transit?

That's the wrong kind of attitude. You don't want to force people into transit by purposely making the car comparatively worse, you want to entice people to use transit by making it better in absolute terms. That way everyone wins; transit riders are better off, and people whose work patterns and time structure still warrant a car are also better off.

Toronto really should be copying the transport policies of cities like Madrid. Fantastic expressway system, fantastic subway system (almost 300 kilometres in a city with a metro area smaller than Toronto's), both of which work together to reduce congestion and move people around. Another thing to note about Madrid is that they have less than 30 kilometres of LRT, versus the proposed 120 kilometres that Miller was trying to shove down our throats. Transit City sought to reduce road capacity in favour of relatively slow surface transit, which is not the right way to go about this. Which is why I don't understand why we have the TTC planning this... let's just call in the Spaniards.

haljackey

Feb 8, 2012, 6:38 AM

I don't understand why we have the TTC planning this... let's just call in the Spaniards.

I agree. The Spanish Solution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_solution) is a transit marvel. There should be an outsider conducting a project of this scope anyway.

Efficient roads and transit are a win for any city. Toronto fails in both categories.

I think the only way Toronto will try to get back on track is winning the Olympics and the massive transport funding associated with it... That is, if they ever host such games.

someone123

Feb 8, 2012, 7:36 AM

Toronto really should be copying the transport policies of cities like Madrid. Fantastic expressway system, fantastic subway system (almost 300 kilometres in a city with a metro area smaller than Toronto's), both of which work together to reduce congestion and move people around. Another thing to note about Madrid is that they have less than 30 kilometres of LRT, versus the proposed 120 kilometres that Miller was trying to shove down our throats. Transit City sought to reduce road capacity in favour of relatively slow surface transit, which is not the right way to go about this. Which is why I don't understand why we have the TTC planning this... let's just call in the Spaniards.

Fundamentally one of the problems is that the total number of dollars invested in transportation aren't matching the rapid population growth in the Toronto area. When a city is adding 100,000 people per year you can periodically build multi-billion-dollar subway lines but still gradually fall behind. The federal government and province need to step up to the plate because they collect most of the tax dollars.

Other Canadian cities operate at a smaller scale but many are in a similar position. Lots of time and money is being wasted on inefficient commuting but nothing seems to change. People scoff at supposedly expensive transit projects but will proceed to sit in traffic for hours upon hours, week after week.

Andrewjm3D

Feb 8, 2012, 8:32 AM

Wharn

Feb 8, 2012, 11:21 PM

We'd all love to have Madrid's metro system. How is Spain's economy doing by the way? We can't build what we can't afford. they probably shouldn't have their transit system. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8983322/Spains-economy-worsening-says-central-bank.html

If a country with an economy as shitty as Spain's can do it, theoretically a country with one of the most solid economies in the world can also do it. Theoretically. It's just a matter of not having the grossly incompetent TTC handle this.

In other news, the Metrolinx chair seems to be offering tacit support for the Fordway plan: http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02/06/metrolinx-gives-rob-fords-transit-plan-a-lift/

My favourite part is the bit where Bruce McCuaig (Bruce... must be an Australian, obviously sent here to destroy our perfect country :D) cites a 25% reduction in travel time by going with the underground option.

dennis1

Feb 9, 2012, 1:17 AM

haljackey

Feb 9, 2012, 1:18 AM

The problem I have with burying a LRT line underground is a huge loss of potential for a huge sum of money.

Does anyone know if the Eglinton LRT underground line is designed for a future conversion to Subways (RT)? If so then it makes a little more sense, but if you're going through the trouble of putting it underground you may as well just make it a subway now.

I know a bit about Transit City and to me it makes sense to keep Eglinton mostly above ground for two reasons.
1. Cost. With Toronto and Ontario both cash-strapped, going with surface LRT means more funding is available for other projects like the Finch LRT line and extending the Shepard Subway.
2. There's right of way. The LRT line can simply run in the old right of way reserved for the canceled (Richview?) expressway. It won't take up any additional room or travel lanes, the one section where it would is planned to go underground anyway.

End rant. At least Toronto has several plans for their transit... I live in a town where buses come every 30 mins on average and there's not even a vision for LRT.

Wharn

Feb 9, 2012, 1:21 AM

It got passed. Rob is mad but who cares!!

What exactly did that have to do with miketoronto's points? You've still failed to address the issues he raised.

Hopefully something good will come out of this mess.

End rant. At least Toronto has several plans for their transit... I live in a town where buses come every 30 mins on average and there's not even a vision for LRT.

I think we as Londoners can forget about LRT if council's attitude doesn't change. Just look at how long it took to get a rail overpass at Hale and Trafalgar. Something like a bridge linking Gainsborough and Windermere Roads over Medway Creek would turn into a year-long battle. A city-wide LRT plan? Don't even touch that with a 39 and a half foot pole.

66days

Feb 9, 2012, 1:43 AM

Madrid has received billions from the Spanish government and the EU to build their transportation system. Toronto, on the other hand, has been starved of funds and suffered from lack of investment from the federal government for decades.

haljackey

Feb 9, 2012, 2:40 AM

So Toronto actually did something good transit-related today. They approved multiple proposals and changed others to get several new subway, rapid transit and light rail lines built, many of them in time for the 2015 Pan-Am games. Something like 13-18 billion dollars in total.

Here is a list of the project that are going to be built or are already under construction.

Air Rail link: http://media.thestar.topscms.com/images/14/8e/e7203e3d4ec583ee3906724e87b5.jpeg

Eglinton Crosstown: http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/eglinton_crosstown_lrt/pdf/map.pdf

Shepard Subway extension (the purple line in this image): http://ttcmultiplat.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/ttc_sheppard_extension.jpg

Spadina subway extension: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/TTCsubwayRTmap-2007.svg

Finch LRT: http://www3.ttc.ca/PDF/About_the_TTC/Transit_City/Finch_LRT_route_diagram1.pdf

Scarborough RT retrofit/extension: http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/scarborough_rapid_transit/pdf/map.pdf

...and an extension of the Yonge subway and other LRT routes are also planned but not yet approved.

dennis1

Feb 9, 2012, 3:12 AM

And that is why transit will fail, if we have people talking like this.

The alternative is people will just drive. Don't accommodate that guy on Islington, and you think he will care? No, he will just hop in a car.
And in a city the size of Toronto, having people living 15 KM from the city centre is not far out in the North American context.

Why will transit fail? Because people expect to be subsidized for living on the
periphery? The outer region of the City is not dense eoungh for subways. A buried Eglinton east line to Kennedy will lose money and then everyone is complaing that TTC is losing (even more) money. People cannot have it both ways.

- Fair Wharn?

Tony

Feb 9, 2012, 12:07 PM

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/418006_3119734199830_11418559_n.jpg

Tony

Feb 9, 2012, 12:14 PM

^ granted the above doesn't show an Eglinton Subway (which would have used the same streetcars for TC, but simply put underground) The FACT is, we can either spend our FINITE amount of money we are given now to serve 630,000 residents OR only the residents that live along the Eglinton line and NOTHING ELSE - INCLUDING, NO OTHER SUBWAY EXTENSIONS - NO RT replacement, NO Sheppard Ext.

What are we suppose to do? Blow all the money on the so-called "right way" to do things by building a single subway line along Eglinton then sit and pray for the next 10-20 years hoping we get more money to do more? Or do we use the money in a wiser way and serve as many residents as possible now? (then maybe pray we can get some more money in the next 10-20 years to improve some of the lines if needed)

miketoronto

Feb 9, 2012, 2:55 PM

The Eglinton crosstown more than accounts for future growth, if you read anything about it you would know that. The LRT is exactly what is needed there, anything more would have been a waste of money. There have been many studies While we're wasting money on the Sheppard stubway why don't we build a subway on Trafalgar road in Oakville as well? I'm just glad the proper transit plan is back and Finch gets an LRT again like they deserved!

I hope you are going to be the first one to rely on these LRT lines architect, and not hop in your car??????? Oh wait you probably won't because you won't be willing to sit on an LRT for a 45 minute trip which only takes 10 minutes by car.

By the way, studies can be made to show what you want. Funny how studies in the 80's supported subways. You build for the demand you. Of course LRT is going to handle projected loads, because hardly anyone is attracted to it. When the LRT on Eglinton was switched to a fully grade separated system, ridership projections skyrocketed.

Really, this building for meeting present needs is total nonsense. If we did this during the time Toronto was building subways, we would not even have a subway under Yonge Street today.

Some stats:

FINCH WEST LRT
23.4 km
Projected to carry 68,000 riders a day.
Current ridership on buses 35,000 riders a day.
New ridership a day: 33,000

The Eglinton - Scarborough Crosstown LRT Subway
25 KM of fully grade separated transit
Projected to carry 279,000 riders a day. Over 205,000 to be new riders.

Projected ridership for the Eglinton - Scarborough Crosstown would likely be much higher than projections, given Toronto's success with rapid transit ridership.

SHEPPARD SUBWAY
6.5 km
Daily ridership: 45,000
Daily Ridership on bus services between Yonge and Don Mills, before the subway opened: 12,000
New ridership a day: 33,000

Sheppard LRT
14 km
Projected daily ridership: 47,000
Current ridership on bus service in the corridor: 30,000
New ridership a day: 17,000

Note that the Sheppard LRT is over double the length of the Sheppard subway.

Like my friend says. Toronto transit advocates who are in the Church of LRT are seriously hurting Toronto and setting us back decades in the transit department. We are now about to spend $8 billion on a plan that gives people a slightly nicer seat to sit on, yet no other advantages. Commute times will stay the same, and people will actually be getting less frequent service than the current buses.
Great way to spend $8 billion.

What is going to happen is in 25 years everyone is going to say we made a big mistake. Just like what happened with the SRT.

Tony

Feb 9, 2012, 4:38 PM

Some stats:

FINCH WEST LRT
23.4 km
Projected to carry 68,000 riders a day.
Current ridership on buses 35,000 riders a day.
New ridership a day: 33,000

The Eglinton - Scarborough Crosstown LRT Subway
25 KM of fully grade separated transit
Projected to carry 279,000 riders a day. Over 205,000 to be new riders.

Projected ridership for the Eglinton - Scarborough Crosstown would likely be much higher than projections, given Toronto's success with rapid transit ridership.

SHEPPARD SUBWAY
6.5 km
Daily ridership: 45,000
Daily Ridership on bus services between Yonge and Don Mills, before the subway opened: 12,000
New ridership a day: 33,000

Sheppard LRT
14 km
Projected daily ridership: 47,000
Current ridership on bus service in the corridor: 30,000
New ridership a day: 17,000

CANCELED PROJECTS IN RED

There, fixed it for you if we went with the Rob Ford option of using up all the money on one project.

TRANSIT CITY as now endorsed by Council (AGAIN) offers the following with the money already committed:

Eglinton Crosstown LRT (combined above & below grade)
Projected to carry 145,205 riders a day. (as compared with your 279,000 stat if it were completely buried.

Sheppard East LRT
Projected daily ridership: 47,000

Finch West LRT
Projected to carry 51,000 riders a day from Humber College to Keele, 37,500 from Keele to Yonge.

Scarborough RT Upgrade
Badly needed upgrade of RT to LRT Route with Extension to Markham Road or Malvern Town Centre. (under Ford's "blow it all on one line plan", there would be no extension)

miketoronto

Feb 9, 2012, 5:39 PM

This map is a very skewed view of looking at things. All these people are already served by local transit.

A single rapid transit line regardless of the corridor can serve more people than just who live along it.

With this thinking the Bloor-Danforth subway would not be serving many people. But in fact it serves a hell of a lot of people, because most Scarborough residents rely on it to commute downtown, etc.

A rapid transit line is not just about who lives 500 meters from it. So more Toronto people would probably be served by one well placed rapid transit line, then all these LRT lines which just duplicate service that is already provided by buses.

What if we produced this map when the Yonge subway was being built. We could have built way more LRT lines for the cost of the subway.

Lets scrap Transit City LRT all together. We could get more bang for our buck doing buses instead. That last comment shows why this map is skewed.

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/418006_3119734199830_11418559_n.jpg

miketoronto

Feb 9, 2012, 5:43 PM

So the Transit City plan as it stands now is going to have vastly more length then just the Eglinton Crosstown. But it is going to carry the same or less amount of people than just an Eglinton Crosstown line would have carried.

Also, ridership on Eglinton has basically been cut in half by going with median LRT.

Hmmmmm what does that tell people? Easy. The LRT plan is not attracting people to transit

The FINCH WEST LRT figures are way off. There is no way it is going to carry that many people, if the original numbers were only 68,000.

Do people think that transit riders and Toronto residents are stupid? People are not going to be flocking to a transit line that offers basically no advantage over the current bus. And that is why the Eglinton line would carry so few riders if it went into median LRT. Because the ridership gains would basically be coming only from the underground portion.

$8 billion down the drain.

It is about quality, not quantity.

CANCELED PROJECTS IN RED

There, fixed it for you if we went with the Rob Ford option of using up all the money on one project.

TRANSIT CITY as now endorsed by Council (AGAIN) offers the following with the money already committed:

Eglinton Crosstown LRT (combined above & below grade)
Projected to carry 145,205 riders a day. (as compared with your 279,000 stat if it were completely buried.

Sheppard East LRT
Projected daily ridership: 47,000

Finch West LRT
Projected to carry 51,000 riders a day from Humber College to Keele, 37,500 from Keele to Yonge.

Scarborough RT Upgrade
Badly needed upgrade of RT to LRT Route with Extension to Markham Road or Malvern Town Centre. (under Ford's "blow it all on one line plan", there would be no extension)

Wharn

Feb 9, 2012, 6:17 PM

Why will transit fail? Because people expect to be subsidized for living on the
periphery? The outer region of the City is not dense eoungh for subways. A buried Eglinton east line to Kennedy will lose money and then everyone is complaing that TTC is losing (even more) money. People cannot have it both ways.

- Fair Wharn?

Not quite. You want to talk about choice, so let's talk about choice. If you do nothing to bring rapid transit to the suburbs, property values along the current "core" lines will rise disproportionately relative to everything else and people who cannot afford to live there will eventually be forced to live in the periphery. Which effectively rewards the richest members of society and punishes the poorer ones, which is what I thought you left-wingers were trying to avoid in the first place. If you're looking to create ghettos like Winnipeg's North, then ignoring transit is a great place to start.

It's like saying "Fuck Sudbury, I don't want Toronto subisidizing the Highway 400 extension". Or "Fuck Montreal, why should I have to pay to repair the Champlain Bridge?" Attitudes like that are selfish and economically damaging in the aggregate. By ignoring the outlying areas you are imposing a huge implicit cost on the city by limiting most activity and development to a few key corridors and ignoring the high marginal returns to transit in areas with comparatively less development. I suspect part of the reason why the downtowners oppose an Eglinton subway is because they don't want to realize a relative decrease in property values.

miketoronto

Feb 9, 2012, 6:39 PM

Why will transit fail? Because people expect to be subsidized for living on the
periphery? The outer region of the City is not dense eoungh for subways. A buried Eglinton east line to Kennedy will lose money and then everyone is complaing that TTC is losing (even more) money. People cannot have it both ways.

- Fair Wharn?

The outskirts of Toronto are not that far out, and are a natural extension of city growth. Not everyone can fit into the old City of Toronto.

And in addition, the density argument is really getting old. Transit is a success in Toronto, because our service does not discriminate based on density, and provides a similar level of service across the city, regardless of density.

Toronto's transit success stems from this and the fact that suburbanites got onto transit, when they were abandoning it in most other North American cities.

Sounds like you need to read the history of Toronto's transit a little.

If Toronto's suburbs can't support suburbs, then why are some of the busiest sections of the subway in the suburbs? Because Toronto's transit network works on the network effect, where buses extend the catchment area of the subways. This has created a very well used rapid transit network, regardless of if in the inner city or the suburbs.

In fact it can be said that it is the suburbs that keep Toronto's rapid transit system performing at such a high level. Ride the Yonge subway at 10pm at night, and it is standing room only. But almost all the riders are destined to the suburban stations. It is actually shocking how little riders get on and off at many of the inner city stations.

So the argument against the suburbs and the density arguments just don't wash.
If you pull out those arguments, then transit is never going to succeed.

And I will close with the fact that inner city bus and streetcar routes tend to have the same or worse cost recovery as the suburban bus routes.
So the inner city is no less subsidized than the suburbs.

Keep up this attitude and our traffic will just keep getting worse, as people continue to flock to their cars. Transit either rises to the challenge or loses out.

nname

Feb 9, 2012, 7:13 PM

So the Transit City plan as it stands now is going to have vastly more length then just the Eglinton Crosstown. But it is going to carry the same or less amount of people than just an Eglinton Crosstown line would have carried.

I don't think many people actually consider the cost of running the line...

More length and more line = higher cost
Carry same amount of people = same revenue
Higher cost + same revenue = lower recovery and more subsidy
More subsidy = more funding, higher fare, or cut service elsewhere

Running a single, high capacity, and better utilized line is actually "much cheaper" than running 3 lower capacity lines. From the ridership projection of the underground cross-town line, it seems like TTC would be able to gain profit, or at least very close to when running the line. Whereas the projection for Transit City LRT, there's no way it would be close to revenue neutral, or even match the recovery of the bus routes they'll replace (unless someone claim running a LRT line would cost 1/2 to 1/3 compared to running a street car line).

Seems like Vancouver does a better job in projecting the operating cost for rapid transit projects. The contract for Canada Line was set so that the subsidy for running the line, including repaying the 750M private sector contribution, would be no more than the subsidy for the bus routes the line replaced after year 3 (in fact, we achieved that in just 1 year). The operating subsidy for running Evergreen Line (~60M) between 2016 and 2026 was already budgeted last year, before construction even begin.

In the case for Toronto, they're just putting everything aside and worry about it later. It would be interesting to see what'll happen when the lines open...

Tony

Feb 9, 2012, 8:26 PM

Mike, read this: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2012/cc/comm/communicationfile-28484.pdf

Tony

Feb 9, 2012, 8:44 PM

Do people think that transit riders and Toronto residents are stupid? People are not going to be flocking to a transit line that offers basically no advantage over the current bus.

Actually they do. A dedicated ROW LRT is far superior to a bus, in comfort and time saving. Try it sometime. Given the choice, would you rather be living a 5 minute walk to a LRT line or a Bus Stop?

no comment on the stupidity of Torontonians... just look at who's the mayor.

Wharn

Feb 9, 2012, 9:18 PM

lol, the article is quoting the study by Forum Research - the question they asked being:

"Do you think that the Scarborough section of the Eglinton light rail transit line should be built above ground in its own right of way in the middle of the road like the St. Clair streetcar, or should it be built below ground like a subway? If it was built above-ground, Eglinton Avenue would be reduced to four lanes in order to accommodate the transit line right of way.'"

Pretty blatant example of "push-polling".

With the exception of the St. Clair part, everything in that is true. I will admit that the Eglinton line would be better than the St. Clair disaster since it would have fewer stops, but has anyone ever bothered to see how close together the Scarberian concessions are? They're all about 850-1000 metres apart. That's a lot of major intersections to deal with, guaranteed that is going to slow it down.

Transit City serves a whole lot more people than the Ford plan, even if a few thousand of them along the outer stretches of Eglinton are going to have to suffer through marginally longer commutes.

This is the problem with government. All you have to do is add 15 minutes to a person's commute each way every day, and by the end of the week they've lost 2.5 hours in productivity. Assuming a 50-week year, that's 125 lost hours... or about 5 days of your life wasted on the commute. If you do this to enough people the economic losses will add up to a very substantial amount. Why do you think people pay good money to take the 407 vs. spending an extra half-hour to take Highway 7?

No, they really won't. What they'd regret is letting the lunatic buffoon and his brother put the city back a decade.

I remember seeing a very amusing cartoon from around 1911, with an anthropomorphized streetcar looking into a tube, and a politician telling him that there wasn't "any need" for such a high-cost system. Strangely applicable to today.

Anyways, if we're going to talk about buffoons who set transit back 10 years, why don't we discuss Miller's cancellation of the previous plan?

The Eglinton crosstown more than accounts for future growth, if you read anything about it you would know that. The LRT is exactly what is needed there, anything more would have been a waste of money. There have been many studies on this, and no matter how much you try to stuff the Ford-esque nonsense about "subway subway subway or nothing", it doesn't make it right.

I've seen some figures that "account" for future growth along current trends, but none that account for potential shifts in demographics, or that weigh the cost of peoples' time or the opportunity costs of forgone large-scale developments that often accompany transit lines. If you could provide me with documents that discuss these factors, I would love to read them.

It is underground in the right areas and aboveground in the right areas. It also has the ability to be easily turned into a subway when the need arises in 100 years or so. While we're wasting money on the Sheppard stubway why don't we build a subway on Trafalgar road in Oakville as well?

Again, I don't think Sheppard was a waste of money at all. The whole street has completely transformed in the past decade with lots of dense, transit-oriented development. Looking at old photos my dad took of it in the late 1990s, it's almost unrecognizable in some spots. Anyways, if traffic patterns warranted a subway along Trafalgar, I'd say go for it. The government exists only to correct for externalities, so by all means, build one if there are massive benefits to be had.

Hopefully this loss is a backbreaker for the Frauds and proof that they have no hold on the council, and the city and its politicians won't put up with their bullshit "my way or the highway" dictator crap.

Dictator? Rubbish. Even the ILO has more power than the Ford brothers could ever dream of. They're just two votes, and the council decision proved that.

NOW CAN WE PLEASE MOVE THIS INTO THE TORONTO LOCAL??