Supertall rumours and speculation thread [Archive]

WhipperSnapper

Dec 8, 2011, 2:56 AM

You cannot be serious! Typical Toronto downsizing. Oh well, maybe next time.:rolleyes:

You can't be serious in an age where projects one tenth the size of a 100 storeys are being dropped left, right, and centre.

Worst part of urbantoronto are all the insular Hume cronies that have no idea what they are bitching about. Toronto ain't perfect or are we the best at one thing or another but that hardly makes the grass greener elsewhere.

dennis1

Dec 8, 2011, 4:56 AM

You can't be serious in an age where projects one tenth the size of a 100 storeys are being dropped left, right, and centre.

Worst part of urbantoronto are all the insular Hume cronies that have no idea what they are bitching about. Toronto ain't perfect or are we the best at one thing or another but that hardly makes the grass greener elsewhere.

UrbanToronto:yuck:

caltrane74

Dec 8, 2011, 1:32 PM

Was looking at 1 Bloor West yesterday. Site to small for a supertall.

Holt Renfrew, Cumberland Terrace, Yorkville Parking Garages, and 1 Yonge remain the best hope, now that the 197 Yonge lot will be spoken for with a 50ish or 60ish Storey tower.

LeftCoaster

Dec 8, 2011, 2:45 PM

^Hmm you seem to be missing a location.

Ramako

Dec 8, 2011, 5:04 PM

^Hmm you seem to be missing a location.

I've gotta think that the World's Biggest Bookstore is prime land for a supertall. Right off Yonge & Dundas and no parks or lowrises in sight.

caltrane74

Dec 8, 2011, 11:16 PM

Com'on Toronto Peoples! We need you here!

yyzer

Dec 8, 2011, 11:36 PM

Com'on Toronto Peoples! We need you here!

Reporting for duty!! :D

urbandreamer

Dec 14, 2011, 8:22 AM

A month ago or so I saw one of those balloons hovering over the Yonge and College area--perhaps taking shots of the views from a possible tall highrise coming in 2012?

Cityzen's next Ma tower in Mississauga promises to be tall and bold.

LeftCoaster

Dec 14, 2011, 5:26 PM

Some news regarding one of the possible supertall sites should be coming out within the first two weeks of the new year.

yyzer

Dec 14, 2011, 5:54 PM

Some news regarding one of the possible supertall sites should be coming out within the first two weeks of the new year.

That will be a great way to start the new year! (as long as the news is positive)...:cheers:

Gresto

Dec 14, 2011, 7:59 PM

Looking forward to hearing what's doing.

dennis1

Dec 14, 2011, 8:02 PM

It better be above 600m!!!

Innsertnamehere

Dec 14, 2011, 8:20 PM

It better be above 600m!!!

lets just get 300 meters first...

baby steps people! baby steps!

LeftCoaster

Dec 14, 2011, 9:26 PM

It better be above 600m!!!

600m? Its not even going to be close.

dennis1

Dec 14, 2011, 10:15 PM

600m? Its not even going to be close.
:(

Come On. We need to fill out that gap between the CN Tower and FCP.

caltrane74

Dec 14, 2011, 10:20 PM

I'll settle for 300 meters to 350 meters.

400 meters will allow us to put Chicago on Smackdown!

dennis1

Dec 14, 2011, 11:46 PM

I'll settle for 300 meters to 350 meters.

400 meters will allow us to put Chicago on Smackdown!

And that should be the goal.

London, Paris, Tokyo

Toronto should be here in 15 years.

haljackey

Dec 15, 2011, 12:57 AM

Let's get a supertall (300-600m) before a megatall (600m+). One step at a time.

And yes, megatall is now a new category made by the council of tall buildings or whatever they're called. I guess with so many towers now over 300m a new category had to be created.

Gresto

Dec 15, 2011, 2:23 AM

Yes, a few supertalls in the 350-400 m. range would do me just fine. "Megatalls" aren't economically feasible.

urbandreamer

Dec 15, 2011, 7:20 AM

100s in Yorkville, right?

caltrane74

Dec 15, 2011, 1:09 PM

We're gonna find out soon enough....

koops65

Dec 15, 2011, 4:01 PM

300 metres is great, but it should be at least 304.8 metres to the roof (1000 feet), just to shut up any American naysayers...

Travis007

Dec 15, 2011, 5:00 PM

Yorkville or Yonge/Dundas area would be perfect location for a supertall to balance out the skyline and create focus outside the MINT core.

Nouvellecosse

Dec 15, 2011, 7:25 PM

300 metres is great, but it should be at least 304.8 metres to the roof (1000 feet), just to shut up any American naysayers...You're right. As muc as some of us ate to admit it, the supertall is a concept established in the US and as always been 1000 ft. A fact that's easy to forget when living in the land of metric.

Vertigo3000

Dec 15, 2011, 9:00 PM

You're right. As muc as some of us ate to admit it, the supertall is a concept established in the US and as always been 1000 ft. A fact that's easy to forget when living in the land of metric.

Missing a few "h"s?

caltrane74

Dec 15, 2011, 9:04 PM

time for a new keyboard...

Nouvellecosse

Dec 15, 2011, 9:36 PM

My h, g, apostrophe, backspace and escape keys don't work. I usually use an on screen keyboard for them, but sometimes I forget.

It is unimaginably annoying, but fortunately my new laptop just arrived today! :banana:

caltrane74

Dec 15, 2011, 10:51 PM

I have a Dell Laptop (brand new!!) at work and an old ACER Inspire that I bought last year for my home...

So far, no problems with the keyboard on my home computer, but sometimes slows down when there are too many programs running.

It uses an AMD chip, my one at work is Intel.

Nick.

Dec 16, 2011, 12:24 AM

haljackey

Dec 20, 2011, 5:11 PM

World's tallest buildings 2020. To compare, Canada's tallest building is 298m.

http://www.ctbuh.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=M0GYftI6cgI%3d&tabid=2926&language=en-US

DrNest

Jan 4, 2012, 5:30 PM

Toronto definitely needs something in the 400m-450m range. Or maybe a little higher on a par with, for example from the picture posted above, the Shanghai WTC. Then with the addition of a few more towers in the 300-350m range, the skyline will begin to look even more impressive on the world stage.

caltrane74

Jan 5, 2012, 1:54 PM

Well as far as economics are concerned, we are more likely to get a building in the 300 to 330 meter range.

Let's see.

Waiting for projects to Materialize:

1 Yonge
Holts Twin Towers???

Innsertnamehere

Jan 5, 2012, 2:32 PM

we'll know sometime this week or next! (according to leftcoaster)

LeftCoaster

Jan 5, 2012, 2:35 PM

Should be soon, wont be definitive but will be some progression.

Andrewjm3D

Jan 5, 2012, 10:39 PM

Should be soon, wont be definitive but will be some progression.

What should be soon?

Innsertnamehere

Jan 6, 2012, 12:48 AM

a supertall proposal, or something about it.

Vertigo3000

Jan 6, 2012, 4:49 AM

I've been updating this page daily to see if there is news yet. I'm really looking forward to this I just hope it doesn't end in disappointment!

LeftCoaster

Jan 6, 2012, 2:40 PM

What should be soon?

Announcement on one of the first supertall sites. I'm afraid it isn't looking good though, the economics are just not supporting a supertall, and this specific site will more than likely be broken into two towers at this point.

The real unfortunate point is that the economics are not unique to this site and will apply to most of the rumoured supertall sites. The rents and land costs just do not allign properly to create the demand for supertalls at this point. It will take a very unique site to justify building over 300M. Of all these supertall possible sites I would imagine we will only see one come to fruition... tops.

Hopefully I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

haljackey

Jan 6, 2012, 4:53 PM

While I'll be happy with any supertall proposal, I hope it will be 'taller' than First Canadian Place.

For example, the Weston Skyscraper was considered a Supertall even though the roof of the building was far lower than the roof of FCP. I'm hoping the best-case scenario would be a building with a roof taller than FCP and an additional spire.

I don't want Canada's first Supertall to look like the Trump Tower, which just put a pencil to the side of the building to make it marginally higher than Scociabank Plaza to claim #2 in the country.

urbandreamer

Jan 8, 2012, 7:46 PM

Innsertnamehere

Jan 9, 2012, 1:18 AM

^ with any luck!!

DrNest

Feb 8, 2012, 4:35 AM

Any more news on a potential supertall in Toronto?

Innsertnamehere

Feb 8, 2012, 9:45 PM

i'm guessing this potential supertall was eau du soliel?

Ramako

Feb 8, 2012, 10:12 PM

i'm guessing this potential supertall was eau du soliel?

Unlikely. It's been known for a while that it would be two towers, and the rumour had always been 70 storeys at the most.

Gresto

Feb 8, 2012, 10:22 PM

And I guess this fabled "Mr. BIG" referenced a few posts back never made his appearance.

LeftCoaster

Feb 8, 2012, 10:27 PM

I think Leftcoaster is hinting at the next Westbank project for Toronto. Interestingly, Mr BIG (http://www.big.dk/) is coming to town 27 January 2012..to make a BIG (http://www.interiordesignshow.com/trade-day/trade-talks)announcement?

I bet it involves a hotel/condo thing, and my bet is Yorkville.

No, as far as I know Ingels is not working on any projects downtown and certainly no where near the supertall variety.

Any more news on a potential supertall in Toronto?

Not as of yet, these things move slowly, a lot more to align than your typical throw-it-together-in-a-week 50 storey condo proposal

i'm guessing this potential supertall was eau du soliel?

No, I don't there there was every any intention of going over what they are currently at.

DrNest

Feb 9, 2012, 12:55 AM

Thanks for the info.

haljackey

Feb 9, 2012, 1:23 AM

DrNest

Feb 9, 2012, 7:17 PM

In the meantime, can't we just stick a spire to the top of First Canadian Place to add just a couple metres? That's how Trump Tower Toronto will be overtaking Scotiabank Plaza, even though the roof is much lower.

I'm seriously thinking something similar needs to be done to the top of the CN Tower to ensure its height will remain above that of the Lotte Tower currently being constructed in Seoul. Only needs 2-3m, maybe an extension to the aircraft warning light?

Andrewjm3D

Feb 9, 2012, 11:15 PM

But it's already shorter then a number of other buildings and towers. It had a good run of 30 years as the tallest. Time for a true supertall or two in T.O.

osmo

Feb 10, 2012, 12:28 AM

DrNest

Feb 10, 2012, 12:34 AM

I have word from a good source that there is indeed a firm plan for a building in the Financial District that will "surpass FCP". this firm has 2 projects in the works one will be Canada's first LEED Platinum Skyscraper, the other will be Toronto and Canada's first Supertall.

Great news. Will be very interested to see proposed renderings once this becomes public knowledge.

Innsertnamehere

Feb 10, 2012, 12:35 AM

that just got me really excited! lol

Ramako

Feb 10, 2012, 12:54 AM

I have word from a good source that there is indeed a firm plan for a building in the Financial District that will "surpass FCP". this firm has 2 projects in the works one will be Canada's first LEED Platinum Skyscraper, the other will be Toronto and Canada's first Supertall.

How will it be in the Financial District? After Bay-Adelaide East, 100 Adelaide and INDX Condos, the whole district is already fully built out.

Vertigo3000

Feb 10, 2012, 1:19 AM

How will it be in the Financial District? After Bay-Adelaide East, 100 Adelaide and INDX Condos, the whole district is already fully built out.

destruction

Ramako

Feb 10, 2012, 1:29 AM

destruction

Something pretty large would have to come down.

Innsertnamehere

Feb 10, 2012, 2:32 AM

there are 2 lowrise buildings right beside fcp that could be torn down. one of them is 3 floors, the other around 10. they are right beside each other, and (IMO) are prime redevelopment locations.

Ramako

Feb 10, 2012, 3:38 AM

there are 2 lowrise buildings right beside fcp that could be torn down. one of them is 3 floors, the other around 10. they are right beside each other, and (IMO) are prime redevelopment locations.

It's been said that if FCP were proposed today in the exact same location and at the exact same size, it would be rejected because of shadows being cast on NPS. The buildings you are referring to are north of FCP meaning that a supertall there would cast serious shadows on NPS, so there's no way a supertall is happening on those sites.

blacktrojan3921

Feb 10, 2012, 3:48 AM

How will it be in the Financial District? After Bay-Adelaide East, 100 Adelaide and INDX Condos, the whole district is already fully built out.

I imagine that either something will be demolished, or there are plans in the city council to have the district boundries expanded upon.

Ramako

Feb 10, 2012, 3:59 AM

I imagine that either something will be demolished, or there are plans in the city council to have the district boundries expanded upon.

There is a plan going before council next month to restrict buildings heights in downtown Toronto and it makes no mention of expanding the financial district, though it does note that height will be unlimited in the district so long as no shadows are cast on NPS.

DrNest

Feb 10, 2012, 3:34 PM

There is a plan going before council next month to restrict buildings heights in downtown Toronto and it makes no mention of expanding the financial district, though it does note that height will be unlimited in the district so long as no shadows are cast on NPS.

Maybe I'm reading that incorrectly, but you state the plan says building heights will be restricted, but also that height is unlimited so long as it does not cast shadows on NPS. How does that work? Is that not contradictory? If anything, I would prefer the latter restriction of these two.

With regards to potential location of supertalls in Toronto, yes I would agree demolition would be required in the financial district. However, I would also imagine that along Queen's Quay would be a good site.
In terms of space to build, the plot of land at the waterfront between Parliament and Cherry St would be great other than access by public transport. It is close to entrances/exits for the Gardiner and DVP, but is a fair trek from Union Station. Perhaps if a number of skyscrapers were to go up in this area, an addition GO station could be built on the tracks north of the Gardiner, east of Cherry St.

I appreciate this is just postulation, and seeing the issues Toronto is having just getting a subway built, funding wouldn't be easy to come by. But it's an idea I'm throwing out for discussion.

Ramako

Feb 10, 2012, 3:44 PM

Maybe I'm reading that incorrectly, but you state the plan says building heights will be restricted, but also that height is unlimited so long as it does not cast shadows on NPS. How does that work? Is that not contradictory? If anything, I would prefer the latter restriction of these two.

The plan covers the entire downtown area (from Front to Bloor). The Financial District is just one part of the downtown. The plan shows that within that district heights will be unlimited, but in other parts of the downtown that are outside of that district heights will be limited to certain ranges.

Scroll to page 69: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2012/te/bgrd/backgroundfile-44938.pdf

DrNest

Feb 10, 2012, 3:50 PM

Ok thanks, that makes more sense.

yaletown_fella

Feb 10, 2012, 3:58 PM

That would be horrible if it came to fruition. Do you really want to maintain the centralized pyramid skyline? uggh

niwell

Feb 10, 2012, 4:10 PM

Keep in mind guidelines are just that. This is something that is meant to be taken into consideration for new projects, but is by no means legally binding. Even if translated down into policy in the OP review and new zoning by-laws (which is unlikely) it's very common to amend these on a contextual site-specific basis.

It's understandable that people on this site focus only on the supposed height caps, but the guidelines are really more about placing a higher standard on design and street treatment.

yaletown_fella

Feb 10, 2012, 5:34 PM

^^ Thanks for clarifying!
I'm too lazy to read the giant 100 page pdf.

A revision (more like introduction) of design and streetscaping guidelines make a lot of sense in the downtown, especially considering the insane pace at which it's approaching full build out.

haljackey

Feb 10, 2012, 10:39 PM

I have word from a good source that there is indeed a firm plan for a building in the Financial District that will "surpass FCP". this firm has 2 projects in the works one will be Canada's first LEED Platinum Skyscraper, the other will be Toronto and Canada's first Supertall.

Either this is awesome news or someone is trolling us hardcore.

taal

Feb 11, 2012, 12:16 AM

I'm putting my money on trolling ...

Gresto

Feb 11, 2012, 4:18 AM

XXX trolling.

caltrane74

Feb 12, 2012, 12:00 PM

Has got to be 45 Bay Street....

No other place it could be.

Andrewjm3D

Feb 12, 2012, 5:30 PM

What about BCE Place 3? There is a large lot at Richmond and Victoria, and that massive lot behind the Toronto Star building. I remember hearing a while back something was in the works for that lot and also the location of the conference centre at the Harbour Castle.

Dylan Leblanc

Feb 12, 2012, 7:14 PM

I don't know what the rules or boundaries for the Financial District are, but I think a neat place for a supertall would be the block containing three junior highrises from the 60s and 70s at the SE corner of University and Adelaide, kitty corner to Shangri-la. Take out the three buildings here (tallest is 18 storys) and there's a great spot for a supertall. Right here - http://www.google.com/maps?ll=43.648715,-79.384616&spn=0.001135,0.002411&t=k&key=ABQIAAAA4MCUkneSzy6L5wcquWvk8RSPynjSqQsV1LYJrKsT19YWD-LwkRTAlZtQoFJIFv7iP_T3Hu36WmDqwQ&sensor=false&mapclient=jsapi&hnear=Victoria,+Capital+Regional+District,+British+Columbia,+Canada&z=19

Or heck, rip down that stupid Citygroup Place building at the foot of University and put up something scary tall!

urbandreamer

Feb 13, 2012, 4:48 PM

I believe Osmo is hinting at the rumoured Oxford Properties monster coming to the MINT area. After all, Canada's first LEED Platinum skyscraper will be Oxford's 100 Adelaide St W http://www.oxfordbigblocks.com/building-page.php?building=100-adelaide

Iirc, an existing 10-20s building is coming down.

DrNest

Feb 13, 2012, 5:38 PM

Or heck, rip down that stupid Citygroup Place building at the foot of University and put up something scary tall!

Agreed. That building would be fine if it were triple it's height. I like the silver - aluminium cladding. And it would be a prime location for a supertall.

taal

Feb 13, 2012, 8:07 PM

Could be but the projected height was in the 40-50 story range. No supper tall, boy do I hat that term ...

Likely a little taller then BA West.

Also, the height increase is just a rumor, only the renderings on the page were updated. There's no news of a tenant regarding this project either.

losername

Feb 14, 2012, 7:37 PM

And isn't EAP in Calgary LEED platinum certified?

osmo

Feb 14, 2012, 10:06 PM

Either this is awesome news or someone is trolling us hardcore.

No Troll here. When I was droped this goody I did not no how much to expose... I thought maybe some people on here could fill in the gaps or we could play a game of hot or cold ;). But yes a building will be taken down to facilitate this. The parts I was murky on and didn't ask for clarification was if it was going to be BAC 2 or the New construct that would be the LEED Platinum. I was unsure of this so I thought maybe somebody on here maybe had a leg up on info and could fill in that grey spot.

But my source said the plan is to go big, they have plans to eclipse FCP. The sub levels are all ready prepped and ready to go. The Park + Parking complex will be ripped up and the tower started quite quickly once things are set in stone. I assume they are trying to go for a BCE 2.0 with a presence on Yonge.

No Troll here.. just giving you guys the news I was told. From the pieces I was told I assumed the Supertall wouldn't be LEED Platinum I brought up the aspect of cost to my source on this and they said that tenants want LEED, and I also I thought it was ballsy to try and build a LEED Supertall, and brought up how I wasn't a big fan of BAC 1 and its design (My issue was if its possible to build a quality LEED Platinum Tower in Toronto?). but good points were brought up about its extremely low environmental footprint and I guess it has been a good cash cow for the firm so if that what the market is asking for (LEED Platinum) I guess they will follow that lead.

So from my long winded responce these things are firm:

- Two Towers will be proposed in the near future in that vicinity
- One of the Towers will be a Supertall
- One of the Towers will be LEED Platinum
- Both will have high LEED certification
- Some type of demolishment will be done to the adjacent 2-stories... how far this streteches to Yonge I am unclear but in the convo my source express a desire to have a noticble presense on Yonge Street.

And I guess they hate Trump as well and wan't to try and block it out as much as they can out since Trump did not honor is setback agreement and blocks some of BAC Towers views. :haha:

DrNest

Feb 15, 2012, 12:04 AM

And I guess they hate Trump as well and wan't to try and block it out as much as they can out since Trump did not honor is setback agreement and blocks some of BAC Towers views. :haha:

Anybody that wants to build tall to block Trump is good in my books. This is great news. Am looking forward to seeing the proposals.

Innsertnamehere

Feb 15, 2012, 12:31 AM

so its a new BAC tower? finally getting details! :D

Ramako

Feb 15, 2012, 12:32 AM

So from my long winded responce these things are firm:

- Two Towers will be proposed in the near future in that vicinity
- One of the Towers will be a Supertall
- One of the Towers will be LEED Platinum
- Both will have high LEED certification
- Some type of demolishment will be done to the adjacent 2-stories... how far this streteches to Yonge I am unclear but in the convo my source express a desire to have a noticble presense on Yonge Street.

And I guess they hate Trump as well and wan't to try and block it out as much as they can out since Trump did not honor is setback agreement and blocks some of BAC Towers views. :haha:

Thanks for the scoop! Interesting stuff.

Are the two towers going to be part of the same complex?

Innsertnamehere

Feb 15, 2012, 12:48 AM

what a 330m BAC1 style tower would look like at (what I gathered from osmo's post) the proposed location;

http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/ac197/innsertnamehere/Untitled-2.png

osmo

Feb 15, 2012, 12:49 AM

Thanks for the scoop! Interesting stuff.

Are the two towers going to be part of the same complex?

That was the one thing I am not sure about. I am trying to re-call exactly what I was told. It would not make any sense for them to attempt to take over adjacent properties Eastward if this was not the case, and it was mentioned that the attempt is to have properties on that whole block stretching from Bay-to-Yonge. So me putting two together that was the conclusion I came too.

When looking at the area on Google Maps you notice an interesting notice from dated pictures.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2nkjrzl.jpg

BPO Properties Ontario is under the Brookfield banner, my guess from is that they have already acquired and carved up the lots ?

taal

Feb 15, 2012, 1:11 AM

That's interesting.

So basically the site just to the west of that sign is BA2 !

Innsertnamehere

Feb 15, 2012, 1:12 AM

thats jsut the splitting of the BCE lands to allow for the 3 different towers.

yyzer

Feb 15, 2012, 1:20 AM

osmo, was this a recent conversation? :)

Ramako

Feb 15, 2012, 1:29 AM

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2011/te/bgrd/backgroundfile-38680.pdf

osmo

Feb 15, 2012, 2:01 AM

The conversation occurred 2 weeks ago. It was over drinks mind you so that's the reason why it took me a while to piece together what I was told :cheers:. But from re-visiting this topic again... looking at the site and piecing little piece together it makes more sense now. Cadillac Fariview when it opened the RBC Center + Ritz took a lot of shine off of BAC, its interesting to see rivalries at work because it means we get way better towers!

I think they re-deemed themselves with the makeover of FCP but there is ambition to do more. The site is already prepped it would just mean cracking the ground and going up which I assume brings down costs quite considerably.

The status of the tower was either they we're fishing for a designer or we're mulling different proposals (again the beers got to me). I mentioned The Bow, Calgary and BoA Tower, NYC as quality Toronto should be striving for and my source acknowledged that if the firm is going to make this a signature piece of the portfolio so I assume they will attempt to blow the roof of the skyline (and their competition).

Looking at their recent development proposals they are pushing the Environmental card... and ... well a lot of glass in design patterns, here is one example:

This is Manhattan West; 2015, Midtown, Height: 370.6m

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3114/3177040873_74c0423138_o.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/104923909/large.jpg

Could this the NYC version of BAC 1 and 2?

taal

Feb 15, 2012, 2:19 AM

When you say the site is already prepped that's where you stump me, then you must be referring to BA2 and nothing else, if they were going to all the way to Yonge that would require demolition, clearly something quite expensiveness.

Andrewjm3D

Feb 15, 2012, 2:58 AM

Would they not have to tear out the underground parking lot first before they build on the site.

Ramako

Feb 15, 2012, 4:18 AM

Would they not have to tear out the underground parking lot first before they build on the site.

That would probably be much easier than digging a fresh hole.

Andrewjm3D

Feb 15, 2012, 7:32 AM

I doubt it, that concrete was poured the same time as the stump. Concrete strengthens over time so just like the stump they will need to use chemicals and brute strength to break it apart.

Innsertnamehere

Feb 15, 2012, 12:27 PM

Does it take less time to demo a 6 floor building then to dig a 6 floor hole? Of course.

Andrewjm3D

Feb 15, 2012, 5:04 PM

Does it take less time to demo a 6 floor building then to dig a 6 floor hole? Of course.

We're not talking about bricks and mortar. It's reinforced concrete that was built as the foundation for the original BA plaza. It's going to take more time and effort to remove the parking levels much like it did for the stump. Will they close off the entire parking lot during construction and rebuild? Or do it section by section leavings some parking open for use. This will be a complicated dig, thinking it will be easier then starting a fresh hole would be a mistake.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/191/481803881_1fc439cea4.jpg