[natrius]

Kick Butt Coffee, the second coffee shop to try its luck at the Triangle, closed this past week.

I now estimate that it would take average daily sales of $1200 to break even and with an average purchase of less than $5 we would need 240 customers a day. This is about 100 more than we had. I now learned the lesson of why Flipnotics couldn't do it and now, neither could we. Oh, and that number I just quoted is to just break even... no profit... no compensation for the owner... just to pay the bills. Why not? Customers and friends say "There is just not enough parking to support a coffee shop in the Triangle."

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Story-of--the-closing-of--Kick-Butt-Coffee-in-the-Triangle.html

[JAM]

Kick Butt Coffee, the second coffee shop to try its luck at the Triangle, closed this past week.



http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Story-of--the-closing-of--Kick-Butt-Coffee-in-the-Triangle.html

Thats too bad. I didn't realize parking was an issue at the Triangle. I knew it was on 2nd street. If the triangle is having problems, you can imagine how difficult it would be on 2nd. Not unless you had other locations or big corporate pockets to support it.

[Jdawgboy]

I didnt think there were any issues about parking on Second Street, its right in the middle of Downtown and with plenty of residential and foot traffic in the area and more to come. I don't see any problems with Second street unless Im missing something. People can easily park in the City Hall Garage or other parking garages if they don't see any street side parking open.

If its because people don't want to pay to park well they need to get over it.


The Triangle is a totally different situation, the area is not even fully built out yet let alone not enough residential to support a whole lot of retail or Restaurants. I know they have started building some other things over there but they need to become more dense if they hope to have a sustainable active center. For the time being, there is not enough parking at the Triangle to bring people in from surrounding areas that much is true.

[austlar1]

Well, there is enough parking to support high volume spots like Mandola's and the very busy bar across from there. Also Galaxy seems to do alright. There are two or three other eateries in there as well. Why are the parking requirements for a coffee place so vastly different?

[natrius]

I think there's enough parking in general, but garage parking is probably too much of a hassle for in-and-out businesses like coffee shops. There's a massive parking garage at 46th and Triangle, and whenever Mandola's or Flying Saucer is busy, you can see a pretty consistent flow of people to and from the garage. Those customers are planning on staying longer than most coffee shop customers, and I doubt it's possible to convince people to park in a garage when there's a Starbucks with a parking lot in front a couple of blocks away. Kick Butt had a block of 10 minute parking spots that seemed sufficient, so I'm not sure this explanation is a good one.

It seems odd to me that the Triangle has maintained such high retail rents when there's so much vacant space they could be making money from leasing.

[JAM]

I didnt think there were any issues about parking on Second Street, its right in the middle of Downtown and with plenty of residential and foot traffic in the area and more to come. I don't see any problems with Second street unless Im missing something. People can easily park in the City Hall Garage or other parking garages if they don't see any street side parking open.

If its because people don't want to pay to park well they need to get over it.



Tell that to the retailer that is losing all his business to the Domain and had to close up shop on 2nd. You're living in a fantasy land if you think 2nd street is The Magnificent mile and people are willing to pay to park and walk long distances to get to the shopping zone. We're not even close, nor will we be for the foreseeable future. So we must work within the parameters of a car centric city. As much as you wish Austin wasn't car centric, it is. Plain and simple.

Where did you shop the last time you bought a shirt, shoes or pants? How often to you go to 2nd street to "mall" shop? I can tell you how often the 45+ year old female with bucks to spend goes, not nearly as often as the Domain.

Restaurants and bars are not true retail. They are food and beverage industry, more entertainment than retail. Totally different issues pertain.

[JAM]

It seems odd to me that the Triangle has maintained such high retail rents when there's so much vacant space they could be making money from leasing.

Big REITs usually own these things, and if not, will soon get sold off to them. They need good, long term renters at high prices to sell them, or please their investors. There is a trade off between locking someone into a 5/10 year lease at low rate vs. letting it sit empty for 2 years until they can locate the right tenant. All based on current occupancy, break-evens and probably a hundred other factors to decide if they should lower rent. Who knows, maybe no one wants to go there, rents are negotiable too, so they are not going to publish their lowest price.

[Jdawgboy]

Actually I have shopped on 2nd street. Also people still have to park in the Domain garages and walk just as far and in some cases farther than the second street district, the only difference is they don't have to pay to park. Many stores at the Domain are just as expensive as the stores on 2nd street, again the only difference is there are a lot more stores and a mix of affordable shops. and lastly I do know the difference between restaurants and retail. The Domain may be a viable option to people who may live in the Downtown area but I rarely go to the Domain because it is so far away when I am only 4.5 miles from DT and roughly 2.5 miles to Barton Creek Square. I do shop Downtown and local as much as I can to help support our businesses. I think we can both agree that people will go where they can get get the most of of their money and that is a major issue that the shops along 2nd street have to contend with as they try to price their items to where they can afford to stay where they are.

[JAM]

The Domain may be a viable option to people who may live in the Downtown area but I rarely go to the Domain because it is so far away when I am only 4.5 miles from DT and roughly 2.5 miles to Barton Creek Square.

Even people who live downtown drive to 2nd street or where ever they are going. That is a big point, once in their car, they can go to either place just as easy. With traffic the way it is downtown sometimes it easier to head to the suburbs. Pay for parking is just one obstacle, but who needs another obstacle when you're a struggling retailer.

Not to mention that the other 1.9M people (all but ~50 are in a car) who live in the Austin metro don't live downtown. Retail is a game of numbers and foot traffic. Gotta get them walking by your storefront before they will ever have a chance of purchasing.

[Jdawgboy]

That is true and you are correct Austin does have a long way to go before we get to a good level of pedestrian oriented districts, I do have hope and I also believe we are going in the right direction overall. The city needs to continue to look into alternative transportation options.

One thing I am glad that the city is doing is creating expanded cross walks along the SoCo strip. I think that will go a long way to decreasing any motor/pedestrian accidents.

[JAM]

That is true and you are correct Austin does have a long way to go before we get to a good level of pedestrian oriented districts, I do have hope and I also believe we are going in the right direction overall. The city needs to continue to look into alternative transportation options.

One thing I am glad that the city is doing is creating expanded cross walks along the SoCo strip. I think that will go a long way to decreasing any motor/pedestrian accidents.

Yes, and it would be nice if they would make the speed limit thru that area 15 or 20 mph. Everyone that goes thru that area can either slow down for a few minutes, or simply take another route. Wouldn't hurt them a bit. Would make the area much safer and more pleasant.

I got to thinking about the parking on 2nd street a little more, it probably good that paid parking exists for them. If it was free, it would get sucked up by all the trollers looking for free parking, and then there would be no place to park. Regardless, it is a damper to retail survival in the area.

[paulsjv]

I can attest that parking sucks at the Triangle and is one of the main reasons I never go there. If it was better I would be there lots more.

[migol24]

i personally think that it's a dichotomy to design a multi-use like the triangle to limit car usage and make austin more urban but then say that the project lacks in parking.

i think a place like the triangle would work much better if there was actually a decent urban rail that led people there and connected it to downtown. but its all wishful thinking, i guess.

i wonder what it would be like if the domain and triangle were all designed next to downtown without any parking lots, making it more cohesive, dense and vibrant. that really would've been something to behold.

[verybadgnome]

I have never had trouble parking at the Triangle the 5 or so times I have been there in a car. There is a free lot right behind Flying Saucer and it isn't much of a walk compared to other shopping centers.

Do people want to park right in front of a coffee shop only?

What about square footages? If I had a coffee shop I'd want a small space but with outdoor seating though I'm not sure Triangle would accommodate.

Interesting to see if other businesses will succeed there while coffee shops do not. Maybe a place selling a full menu selection and coffee would do better.

[M1EK]

I suspect the coffee shop owner was looking for an excuse rather than a reason - it doesn't make much sense that Flying Saucer goes gangbusters if parking is the real concern (and there's ample parking most of the day at the Triangle anyways).

We go there about once a week (alternating Mama Fu's and Galaxy) for dinner and more often than not end up able to park on the main central road when going to Galaxy.

[BevoLJ]

Get a Vespa and you will never again have to worry about parking on campus, downtown, or anywhere in the city of Austin. :D

Or gas prices! =)

[MichaelB]

I suspect the coffee shop owner was looking for an excuse rather than a reason - it doesn't make much sense that Flying Saucer goes gangbusters if parking is the real concern (and there's ample parking most of the day at the Triangle anyways).

We go there about once a week (alternating Mama Fu's and Galaxy) for dinner and more often than not end up able to park on the main central road when going to Galaxy.

totally agree. Or.... just poorly managed or bad business plan.

[JAM]

I'm not convinced it was poor planning. People drink coffee in morning, right? They have to get to work in morning. Women wear heels, they don't walk far in heels. Everyone is in a hurry, no time to walk far. Poor planning that they didn't look at parking situation maybe. On the other hand, people go to Flying Saucer to lounge and get drunk, they aren't heading to work, they are heading for a DWI after running over some pedestrians.

[BevoLJ]

Do most people go to coffee shops on their way to work? I have coffee at home before going to the office. People in the morning without their caffeine can be a bit scary, and so I like to avoid coffee shops during the morning rushes. When I go to a coffee shop it is usually to meet a friend or friends and to just hang out. Or even sometimes just take my iPad and read a book on it or read you goofballs on SSP. =)

I wonder how much of a days profits come from morning traffic vs the rest of the day. Didn't someone on here used to work for Jo's?

[migol24]

Do most people go to coffee shops on their way to work? I have coffee at home before going to the office. People in the morning without their caffeine can be a bit scary, and so I like to avoid coffee shops during the morning rushes. When I go to a coffee shop it is usually to meet a friend or friends and to just hang out. Or even sometimes just take my iPad and read a book on it or read you goofballs on SSP. =)

I wonder how much of a days profits come from morning traffic vs the rest of the day. Didn't someone on here used to work for Jo's?
yep! that's me.... and yes typically morning's were busier. that's why i only worked night shifts when i was there. :tup:

[M1EK]

I'm not convinced it was poor planning. People drink coffee in morning, right? They have to get to work in morning. Women wear heels, they don't walk far in heels. Everyone is in a hurry, no time to walk far. Poor planning that they didn't look at parking situation maybe. On the other hand, people go to Flying Saucer to lounge and get drunk, they aren't heading to work, they are heading for a DWI after running over some pedestrians.

In the morning there's empty parking spaces all over the place at the Triangle.

The only time we typically have trouble parking right on the 'street' that runs in front of where KBC was is if we don't get there early enough for dinner on a busy night (Farmers Market or weekend nights). Lunch is never a problem; and in the morning it's practically empty.

[JAM]

In the morning there's empty parking spaces all over the place at the Triangle.

The only time we typically have trouble parking right on the 'street' that runs in front of where KBC was is if we don't get there early enough for dinner on a busy night (Farmers Market or weekend nights). Lunch is never a problem; and in the morning it's practically empty.

I have yet to observe or live in a development like this (I've lived in several) where apartment tenants did not park in these spaces over night. I would not be surprised that if you observe the parking situation at 6-7:00AM that spaces are full. If you look at 9-10:00am, when apartment residents have gone to work, then I'm sure they are empty.

[M1EK]

I have yet to observe or live in a development like this (I've lived in several) where apartment tenants did not park in these spaces over night. I would not be surprised that if you observe the parking situation at 6-7:00AM that spaces are full. If you look at 9-10:00am, when apartment residents have gone to work, then I'm sure they are empty.

Haven't been there at 6 AM, but I doubt it - just because those spaces are probably at their fullest when the apartment people are starting to go to bed - because of the Flying Saucer crowd, for instance.

[natrius]

I have yet to observe or live in a development like this (I've lived in several) where apartment tenants did not park in these spaces over night. I would not be surprised that if you observe the parking situation at 6-7:00AM that spaces are full. If you look at 9-10:00am, when apartment residents have gone to work, then I'm sure they are empty.

I live at the Triangle, and the lot always has tons of empty spots overnight.

[JAM]

I live at the Triangle, and the lot always has tons of empty spots overnight.

Does that mean the coffee shop's excuse is bogus?