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View Full Version : Provincial Govt to invest $300 million into Irving Shipyard



Wishblade
Mar 30, 2012, 8:13 PM
I posted this in the DND shipbuilding contract thread but found it big enough news for its own thread. Here is the article again:

HALIFAX - The Nova Scotia government is making more than $300 million available to Irving Shipbuilding Inc. to help it prepare for the construction of the Royal Canadian Navy's next fleet of vessels.

The government's financial assistance package announced Friday consists of a forgivable capital loan worth up to $260 million and a repayable marine industry loan of $44 million for human resources, technological and industrial development.

rest here: http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/business/halifax-shipyard-gets-government-financial-aide-package-for-navy-ships-145171755.html

scooby074
Mar 30, 2012, 8:33 PM
Wait... So a company gets a muli-billion dollar contract and we're still giving them handouts? :koko:

Knowing irving as I do (worked for them) I wouldnt be at all surprised it much of the sub-contract work goes to NB and Irving subsidiaries. From Toiletpaper to vacuum trucks, they have a company that covers it.

I'll love to see the final numbers at the end of the contract showing how much money went to NB and/or Irving subsidiaries vs NS and/or independent companies.

MonctonRad
Mar 30, 2012, 10:00 PM
Knowing irving as I do (worked for them) I wouldnt be at all surprised it much of the sub-contract work goes to NB and Irving subsidiaries. From Toiletpaper to vacuum trucks, they have a company that covers it.

I'll love to see the final numbers at the end of the contract showing how much money went to NB and/or Irving subsidiaries vs NS and/or independent companies.

Well Moncton does have an (Irving) toilet paper factory (Majesta/Royale). The last time I checked, there were no TP factories in Nova Scotia. Are you suggesting that all TP orders for the shipyard be outsourced to the States?

RyeJay
Mar 30, 2012, 10:11 PM
Wait... So a company gets a muli-billion dollar contract and we're still giving them handouts? :koko:

Knowing irving as I do (worked for them) I wouldnt be at all surprised it much of the sub-contract work goes to NB and Irving subsidiaries. From Toiletpaper to vacuum trucks, they have a company that covers it.

I'll love to see the final numbers at the end of the contract showing how much money went to NB and/or Irving subsidiaries vs NS and/or independent companies.

I would like to see at least some work go to Saint John.

scooby074
Mar 30, 2012, 11:21 PM
Maybe NB should cough up some of the 300mil then?

beyeas
Mar 30, 2012, 11:25 PM
I posted this in the DND shipbuilding contract thread but found it big enough news for its own thread. Here is the article again:

HALIFAX - The Nova Scotia government is making more than $300 million available to Irving Shipbuilding Inc. to help it prepare for the construction of the Royal Canadian Navy's next fleet of vessels.

The government's financial assistance package announced Friday consists of a forgivable capital loan worth up to $260 million and a repayable marine industry loan of $44 million for human resources, technological and industrial development.

rest here: http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/business/halifax-shipyard-gets-government-financial-aide-package-for-navy-ships-145171755.html

Damn communists at it again with their Bolshevik assistance plans for capitalists!

fenwick16
Mar 30, 2012, 11:59 PM
Here is a map of the current facilities from the Irving website - http://www.irvingshipbuilding.com/irving-shipbuilding-facilities-halifax-shipyard.aspx

http://imageshack.us/a/img96/1884/currentshipyards.jpg



Here are some of the planned facilities from the Ships Start Here website - http://shipsstarthere.ca/momentum/ongoing-investment/

http://imageshack.us/a/img210/602/newirvingfacilities.jpg


Here is the Bing Maps' Bird's Eye View - http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=rfb3r69q09w3&lvl=17&dir=270&sty=b&where1=Halifax%2C%20NS&form=LMLTCC

resetcbu1
Mar 31, 2012, 3:45 AM
So let me get this straight. The company wins a multibillion dollar contract, 30 billion to be exact. And then the nova Scotia government decides to chip in another 300,000,000 for upgrades to an already existing company that has been turning out huge profits for years and I am sure they will be able to cover the costs of the upgrades themselves with their new $30,000,000,000 contract, but hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm they don't have $20,000,000 to throw the city of Halifax two words a new stadium.

Smells like bull shit to me, fuck the irving's and Darryl Dexter as well.
Now don't get me wrong, I am all for the shipbuilding contract and I'm very proud that it has been awarded to my hometown and I'm sure it will be a huge boost the local economy, but come on you're telling me that they cant afford to move forward with this themselves. I don't buy that for one second.
And then there is Sterile Dexter with yet another boneheaded move it is nothing less than shortsighted and surely for his own benefit down the road. Maybe it's time for Mr. Dexter to take a drive past the grassy knoll or the book depository.

Needless to say I don't agree with this at all:hell:

ScovaNotian
Mar 31, 2012, 11:04 AM
This is a wild guess, but might it be possible that the provincial money (that was committed a year back) had the purpose of improving the yard's position in the competition for the federal contract? It seems to make little sense otherwise.

MonctonRad
Mar 31, 2012, 11:16 AM
This is a wild guess, but might it be possible that the provincial money (that was committed a year back) had the purpose of improving the yard's position in the competition for the federal contract? It seems to make little sense otherwise.

This is what they were implying on TV last night. Interesting that the news is only coming out now. I would presume that if BC had known at the time that NS was coughing up $300M for the bid, that they would have been forced to do something similar.

scooby074
Mar 31, 2012, 1:03 PM
This is a wild guess, but might it be possible that the provincial money (that was committed a year back) had the purpose of improving the yard's position in the competition for the federal contract? It seems to make little sense otherwise.

But why the hell are we giving a billion dollar company, 300 million to improve their facilities? That should be a cost of doing business.

That 300 million could go a damn long way in this province. Like twinning the TCH ... paying for a new Yarmouth ferry.. paying down the debt.. etc..etc..

Stupid Dexter.

RyeJay
Mar 31, 2012, 9:38 PM
But why the hell are we giving a billion dollar company, 300 million to improve their facilities? That should be a cost of doing business.

That 300 million could go a damn long way in this province. Like twinning the TCH ... paying for a new Yarmouth ferry.. paying down the debt.. etc..etc..

Stupid Dexter.

For the same reason we keep subsidising any oil companies and large corporations, of which have been experiencing their highest profits in over 60 years, and especially in the United States have been hording vast amounts of money.

Whether its direct transfer payments or tax breaks, neither of which taxpayers can afford, we subsidise big businesses as though they were once again kingships. The politicians are simply the enabling aristocratic 'Lords', supporting a particular CEO whom supports them in return. Since competing countries (such as China) are very willing to go to the extreme with subsidies for big buisnesses from the money saved by not investing in social programmes for lower-income people, it leaves countries such as Canada in a difficult position. Do we further sacrifice our social net and human rights so that we may be graced with jobs from rich, international corporations?

Our business dealings, especially globally, are quite medieval. It's like a game of thrones, with so many poor, cocky fools as fodder.

Canadian_Bacon
Mar 31, 2012, 11:10 PM
From what I read off of another article one of the big point gainers for the winning ship builder was that they would not need more federal money beyond what the contract is worth. So the NS government said they will give them the money instead of them asking the federal government.


"One of the categories used to rate bidders for the shipbuilding contract was whether there would be any cost to the federal government beyond the cost of the ships. That category was worth 20 points out of 100 in the rating system.

Irving said the yard needed capital work and the company would be penalized if it asked for federal money."
Taken from - http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/79307-province-loans-irving-304-million-shipbuilding


"Irving recalled a meeting with Dexter a year ago when they talked about trying to get the highest possible score in the rating system, meaning not asking for federal cash for upgrades.

“That’s what got us the job,” Irving said as shipyard workers looked on."

scooby074
Apr 1, 2012, 1:50 AM
Federal...Provincial... Doesnt matter. Irving doesn't need money from ANYBODY.

RyeJay. Well put. I know the reasons.. my question was more a rhetorical "Why".

Frankly it sickens me when NS needs so much to hand over cash to one of the richest families in Canada. I laughed at the comment from one of the Irvings that the shipyard would have been turned to condos if they didnt get the money :haha: Irving wanted this contract. They would have went for it with or without government money, but if you can play hardball and get some free government cash, why not, eh?

Even Michelin, over its 45 year history, has only received 1/2 that (not that I necessarily agree) and has probably employed almost as many. Its a huge sum.

Besides badly needed infrastructure, this money could have been used to lure other large employers.. A greater win for NS. I'm scared we have put too much into the "Ships Start Here" basket. We should have used the money to diversify.

SSH wont be Nova Scotia's saving grace. It is a help for sure, but we need more.

Keith P.
Apr 1, 2012, 12:31 PM
Steele should just cancel it in his budget address. "Oops, sorry, we just discovered we can't afford it." Same as the HST increase. Just another broken promise. Think the Irvings would walk?

RyeJay
Apr 1, 2012, 1:45 PM
Shall we list companies, which actually have more experience in shipbuilding, that would laugh at Irving for walking? Aside from the established companies that would jump in and replace an ungrateful Irving -- there are even more companies looking to expand their enterprise and would gladly accept tens of billions of dollars to do so.

Jstaleness
Apr 1, 2012, 5:48 PM
But why the hell are we giving a billion dollar company, 300 million to improve their facilities? That should be a cost of doing business.

That 300 million could go a damn long way in this province. Like twinning the TCH ... paying for a new Yarmouth ferry.. paying down the debt.. etc..etc..

Stupid Dexter.

Please don't forget the education system.

scooby074
Apr 1, 2012, 9:58 PM
Please don't forget the education system.

Of course not..Especially in light of recent school closings!

Keith P.
Apr 1, 2012, 11:30 PM
Actually the only $300 million I would spend on the education system is on costs associated with blowing it up and rebuilding it in a way so that it actually works. We do not need to throw more money at the existing dysfunctional system.

beyeas
Apr 2, 2012, 3:35 PM
Federal...Provincial... Doesnt matter. Irving doesn't need money from ANYBODY.

RyeJay. Well put. I know the reasons.. my question was more a rhetorical "Why".

Frankly it sickens me when NS needs so much to hand over cash to one of the richest families in Canada. I laughed at the comment from one of the Irvings that the shipyard would have been turned to condos if they didnt get the money :haha: Irving wanted this contract. They would have went for it with or without government money, but if you can play hardball and get some free government cash, why not, eh?

Even Michelin, over its 45 year history, has only received 1/2 that (not that I necessarily agree) and has probably employed almost as many. Its a huge sum.

Besides badly needed infrastructure, this money could have been used to lure other large employers.. A greater win for NS. I'm scared we have put too much into the "Ships Start Here" basket. We should have used the money to diversify.

SSH wont be Nova Scotia's saving grace. It is a help for sure, but we need more.

To me this was a no-win situation for Dexter. Had he not agreed to this, and instead the news article this week had come out saying "Shipbuilding Contract Lost Because of Refusal by NDP to back Infrastructure Grants: Irving" I GUARANTEE that there would be tons of posts on this forum about how this shows that Dexter has to go and this just shows what happens when you elect an NDP government.

More than anything, the fact is no matter what party we elect they are all fundamentally the same, because they are driven by the same root need to get re-elected. Hence the reason why the nominally socialist/unionist provincial NDP provides forgivable loans to a corporation (same as the PC and Libs did before them), and the reason why the nominally small- government Conservatives run years of massive program expansion and spending (as have previous Liberal governments in the past). The only people who believe otherwise are party zealots who can rationalize everything away by thinking that whatever their party does is always correct and what the other parties do is always wrong.

beyeas
Apr 2, 2012, 3:46 PM
Actually the only $300 million I would spend on the education system is on costs associated with blowing it up and rebuilding it in a way so that it actually works. We do not need to throw more money at the existing dysfunctional system.

That is one thing that we are in complete agreement on.

It isn't even just the fundamental 3-Rs that kids aren't learning... although it is certainly true that there are way too many kids who are getting pushed through without getting the basics down.

For me it is a dysfunctional system that does nothing but produce robots that are unable to do anything but regurgitate "facts". It is a spectacular fundamental failure of the education system North America-wide that students are never taught to observe, question their observations, and draw their own conclusions. Instead students are taught to blindly accept what they are told, and regurgitate it back.

Doing so doesn't create "citizens", it creates lemmings who follow off the cliff whomever is yelling the loudest. There are times when I cannot understand why people have accepted a "fact" that is so clearly illogical and false, and then I think about our education system and realize why that is.

RyeJay
Apr 2, 2012, 5:13 PM
For me it is a dysfunctional system that does nothing but produce robots that are unable to do anything but regurgitate "facts". It is a spectacular fundamental failure of the education system North America-wide that students are never taught to observe, question their observations, and draw their own conclusions. Instead students are taught to blindly accept what they are told, and regurgitate it back.

Doing so doesn't create "citizens", it creates lemmings who follow off the cliff whomever is yelling the loudest. There are times when I cannot understand why people have accepted a "fact" that is so clearly illogical and false, and then I think about our education system and realize why that is.

I believe this is a gross generalisation. I think even amoungst the most educated people, there is a strong tendency to 'pick a side' as though it were a sports context -- and argue that side to death until you have to change your position. I've seen people argue what they know is wrong simply because their ego prevents them from admitting what everyone should immediately admit: I may be wrong at anytime.

Though I can't accurately speak of our public education system now, having been out of it for so long, I am not that old, and clearly recall how rigorous my teachers were.

Granted, some of my teachers were absolutely horrible. And granted, I may...at times...have been a stubborn kid. I do need to acknowledge, though, how skilled most of my teachers were at aggressively and confidently presenting quantified 'facts' to the class, while being humble enough to encourage the class to question these conclusions.

And I remember being given ample choices. We could pick our science topics, within a given range of course. We could pick the English variant in which we submit our work (British, Canadian, American, etc.). We had sexual education beginning in grade 4.

Our public education system has obviously degraded since then. The government defunding is clearly a reason; too much union control in terms of protecting poor-quality teachers is another.

We need a modernised, reformed school system, which is more versatile considering the increasing number of middle-aged kids immigrating to our canuck schools lacking many language basics (but ironically kicking our kids' asses in math and science).

If I could make only five changes to the subjects to which our kids are exposed, I would mandate: (1) Political Science, to allow kids a duration of many years in which they may look forward to voting (and concurrently make better use of the CBC via lesson plans); (2) English AND French until graduation of high school; (3) Psychology, to allow kids a better understanding of what everyone must go through and to have more control over their own stress as they mature; (4) Religion, to allow kids to associate all the things religions share in common, as well as the broad evolution of religions which connects them all (i.e.: Christianity based on Judeo and Egyptian mythology, as well as other pagan beliefs); and (5) Food Health -- because the kids growing up now are so incredibly unhealthy compared to the last several generations.

beyeas
Apr 2, 2012, 5:29 PM
I believe this is a gross generalisation.

It is indeed. And there are absolutely exceptions to that generalization in terms of students and in terms of teachers as well (because there are certainly teachers who in fact do an excellent job in inspiring students to think for themselves). I have no doubt that people on this forum fall into the minority that DO think and question, and likely had the benefit of being lucky enough to have teachers along the way who encouraged that. The mere fact that we are all on here debating and questioning speaks to that.

However, I see students coming through my university class all the time, and if you look at a freshman level I can tell you from 1st hand experience that the majority have absolutely no concept of how to think their way through problems and evaluate things on their own. They just want to be told what to do, memorize it, and do it. This is not "all" students, but many many many, and it is largely because this is what has been asked of them for the past 12 years. I can't tell you how many times I have been helping a student with a problem, trying to teach them how to look at it and figure it out on their own, and have them just say "No just tell me how to solve it and I will do it". The federal government spends a lot of time talking about the lack of innovation in the Canadian economy, but a part of that problem exists in a system that mostly teaches students to not question their observations.

This is an absolute failure of the system, because the current education system has the built in structural flaw that it is based on memorization, rather than one that actively tries to teach students to think for themselves.

fenwick16
Apr 3, 2012, 3:30 AM
Maybe the NDP did the right thing to help get the shipbuilding contact. However, according to the allnovascotia.com, Dexter is now promising to roll back the HST if they get re-elected. The makes me feel sick to my stomach. It simply sounds like buying votes with the Nova Scotia taxpayers' own money.

q12
Apr 3, 2012, 11:36 AM
This is complete B.S. What the hell does he think we are, stupid?

2009 Dexter Election Promise: We won't raise taxes:

2010 Dexter's NDP raise the HST by 2%

2012 Dexter's Election Promise: We will lower taxes by 1% a year (for two years) after they get elected.

I don't care if your on the left, in the middle, or on the right. Do not re-elect these lying SOB's. :hell:

http://www.ndpripoff.ca/ (http://www.ndpripoff.ca/)

Nova Scotia to cut HST to 13 per cent by 2015
April 2, 2012 - 10:58pm BY DAVID JACKSON PROVINCIAL REPORTER

Nova Scotians can expect to see the harmonized sales tax start heading down in two years, Premier Darrell Dexter said Monday evening.

The NDP raised the tax by two percentage points to 15 per cent in 2010, breaking an election promise not to raise taxes.

Dexter said at the time it was necessary as part of the plan to get the province back on sound financial footing. He said Monday that plan is working and will lead to a one-point cut in 2014 and another one the next year that will get the tax back down to 13 per cent in 2015.

Read more here and vote NO to believing they will reduce the HST. http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/80388-nova-scotia-cut-hst-13-cent-2015

ScovaNotian
Apr 3, 2012, 4:51 PM
I guess the official line goes: We needed the HST increase to buy us the time to cut spending. From what I gather the government has cut university funding by 10% over three years. Figuring in inflation brings this to something in the vicinity of 18%, and health and other education have seen cuts as well. What I would fault them for is using the opportunities that the cuts have generated for something as stupid as cutting the HST, rather than income taxes.

worldlyhaligonian
Apr 3, 2012, 5:10 PM
Not to jump into the education spending debate... but demographically speaking these kinds are growing up in newer schools with smaller class sizes, etc.

I'm from the middle of generation y and we were the most neglected... the buildings were falling apart, massive class sizes of 35+ students in some cases... behavior problems??? I saw people stabbed before. Now that they've given these issues scientific names, does that change that people have been crazy since the dawn of time?

I think kids are smarter and more educated than ever in history, but are more coddled than ever. The whole system of education is flawed because they pump all these teachers out now where there is no job growth. Futhermore, most of the teachers prior to these new generations were actually educated in some other field aside from just getting a B.Ed.

Why invest in schools when the age-sex pyramid won't swing outward again until my generation (born in the mid 80's) has children... years from now. Building them in far flung rural areas makes no sense either. Good on the province for building one in eastern shore, its actually growing there and has more younger families than most areas.

Most of the kids in school are the equivalent of gen-x to baby boomers.

spaustin
Apr 3, 2012, 8:23 PM
Up to this point I was with them. Raise the HST and hold the line on spending to balance the budget. Our provincial finances are a real mess. Instead of just handing HST money back, I want to see an actual emphasis on debt reduction. We owe $13 billion. That's a lot for a province of less than a million people. Right now, even with rates sitting in the basement, interest eats up 10% of our revenue. $800-$900 a year. It's our largest expense behind health, education and community services (it's very close to being tied with community services). That's money that could go to other things, but it's tied up because of decades of mismanagement. Before tax reductions, we should have an aggressive strategy to reduce our debt, especially since it's not going to get easier as our population ages! To make it more palatable, maybe we could reduce income taxes by the equivalent that we save in interest each year by reducing the debt through HST revenue.

scooby074
Apr 3, 2012, 9:26 PM
Brilliant move Dexter.

What was the budget shortfall this budget? $211 million. Pocket change eh?

Compared to a projected surplus of $360 million in 2015 if the tax rate stays the same.

Talk about shafting the province to buy votes. Get these dummies out before they wreck our province like they done to others.

someone123
Apr 3, 2012, 10:23 PM
That's money that could go to other things, but it's tied up because of decades of mismanagement.

Yeah, as you say, these problems go back decades. I don't necessarily think that NS has been much more reckless with spending than other provinces, but it has three big structural problems:

1) Large, not very productive rural population. This goes hand in hand with the horrible cycle of sinking money into rural areas to get rural votes.

2) Lack of population growth and immigration. Other provinces have lower debt-to-GDP ratios partly because they have "outgrown" their debt. The caveat here is that this growth isn't always sustainable.

3) Tiny scale of provincial government.

It's a bit of a pyramid scheme, but the easiest way to improve the province's bottom line would probably be to have more immigration/migration to Halifax. Unfortunately, NS has a very low immigration sponsorship quota and whenever immigration is brought up it gets derailed into a debate on how we can get people to move to Canso, which is very unlikely to happen.