[Cirrus]

City planners can tell you that shopping malls generally have a lifespan of about 30 years, especially the more disposable suburban ones. This, combined with the increasing market preferences for big box shopping and open air town center style shopping, has produced a lot of dead malls all over the US.

I produced this map of malls in the DC region. Red dots indicated they are closed or in the process of closing. Green dots indicate they're open, although almost all of the green dots are struggling in one way or another and could easily switch to red in a few years.

I'd be interested in seeing similar maps for other regions, if anyone cares to produce one. We can also use this thread to talk about redevelopment scenarios. In the DC region, most of the closed malls have either been redeveloped as town centers, or as big boxes.

Click here (http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6049/7030335345_05973cb880_o.png) for the full-size version of the map, which is big enough to read the table on the left that gives details for every mall.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6049/7030335345_1b9142fb2f_b.jpg

[glowrock]

As you know, there are several that have closed up in the Denver area, namely Cinderella City (now a TOD), Villa Italia (now the mixed-use Belmar development), Buckingham Square (converted to a somewhat mixed-use development), and now Westminster Mall (going to be a major TOD, at least from the preliminary plans I've seen/heard about.

As for Pittsburgh, I don't know of any truly dead/closed malls, though there are several current ones which have seen far, far better days. These are Northway Mall and Century II Mall. Pittsburgh's malls tend to be pretty old already, and only a few of them are really healthy, quite frankly. Not sure what's going to happen with Pittsburgh Mills, though the last time I was there a LOT of it looked to be vacant or drastically underused. :(

Aaron (Glowrock)

[mr1138]

City planners can tell you that shopping malls generally have a lifespan of about 30 years, especially the more disposable suburban ones. This, combined with the increasing market preferences for big box shopping and open air town center style shopping, has produced a lot of dead malls all over the US...

I'd be interested in seeing similar maps for other regions, if anyone cares to produce one. We can also use this thread to talk about redevelopment scenarios. In the DC region, most of the closed malls have either been redeveloped as town centers, or as big boxes.


In response to the two quotes in bold... I think it's interesting to note that most "new urban town centers" that are built to replace dead malls are built with a mentality stemming from the reality of the 30 year lifecycle. Belmar in Lakewood, CO is a perfect example. It is oftentimes criticized for having too many chain stores and relying too much on buisiness derived from the auto-oriented suburbs around it (much like an old fashioned mall does), while not building enough density in the short term to support a more organic neighborhood retail scene.

I've always felt, however, that this strategy is actually somewhat smart in that it combines the best aspects of both urbanism and suburban mall design. There simply isn't enough demand to fill up a dense urban neighborhood in the middle of the suburbs with residents in such a short period of time. By filling it with "mall stores," the developers are able to generate instant business by targeting the area to the suburbanites who are looking for these stores anyway. But where it differs from malls is in its "recylcability," so to speak.

Anticipating that something like Belmar, like any mall, will run a 30 year lifespan means that a time will come when it will need to be revitalized again. The benifit of this type of development over a traditional mall however is that when that time comes, new life may be breathed into it simply by continuing to add residential and office density (and once it starts to die, it won't need as much parking and can put this density where the excess parking is currently located). By putting in actual public rights of way and segmenting property ownership, these developments will not require the kind of wholesale, etch-a-sketch style demolition that old fashioned malls require when they die. Instead, individual buildings could be sold one-by-one as they age, and new ones can be built where things like Best Buy and the pad restaurants now stand. And all that added density can slowly transform the development into one supported by its own residents rather than suburban mall-goers.

Only time will tell if these predictions come true. But I've always felt that it is foolish to expect that any architecture firm or developer can create a truely "organic" urban setting from scratch in the middle of the suburbs. Like every great urban space in the world, the passage of time will be what it takes to season these places and make them feel "real." But you have to start somewhere, and marketing these developments as a "new form of mall" may just be what it takes to make them financially viable enough to get off the ground.

[PoshSteve]

I currently work outside of the Rolling Acres mall in Akron, one of the two most notorious dead malls in northeast Ohio, the other being the Randal Park mall in suburban Cleveland.
http://deadmalls.com/malls/rolling_acres_mall.html

Its really quite sad. The whole area was at one time the premier shopping destination in the Akron area. Although it was all before the time I moved down here (necessary for school, i miss Cleveland...), the ladies I work with at the bank tell me stories of how things used to be. Romig Rd used to be packed with people. just about every major store you could think of was located there. but there were two main things that led to the areas downfall. 1) demographics. The Kenmore area of Akron is a very very bad neighborhood, and often avoided after dark, and it just so happens to be right down the hill from the mall. when that neighborhood went downhill, the bad elements started coming out to the mall. 2) competition. Theres two/three other malls in the Akron area. people in the higher end areas of northwest Akron had no reason to come down to the hood once Summit mall in Fairlawn was redone, and those on the east side of the city always went to Chapel Hill since it was much more convenient. not to mention theres much better shopping in Cleveland to go to ;]

all in all, it was the classic case study of a dying mall. changing demographics, and a market completely saturated by retail. The road is sort of making a comeback now though. Theres smaller shops opening up, and bars/restaurants. not to mention my bank is still there after 30 years, although we were originally in the mall. Now all thats left of the mall is a JC Penny outlet. everything else has closed and the mall is padlocked

[Xelebes]

Closed:

Heritage Mall (converted to Century Park TOD)


Converted to Health Malls (mostly professional, but retail remains):

Meadowlark Mall
Northgate Mall

In Peril:

Capilano Mall
Abbotsford Mall
Milbourne Mall


Strong:

West Edmonton Mall
Southgate Mall
Kingsway Mall
Londonderry Mall
Millwoods Town Centre
Westmount Mall
City Centre Mall
Bonnie Doon Mall

[Xing]

When I lived in DC we use to go to Crystal City, Pentagon City, and Springfield Mall. Good times.

[MolsonExport]

Canadian collection of dead malls can be found here: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=130447


I am fascinated by dead malls, as I am with urban grit.

[miketoronto]

City planners can tell you that shopping malls generally have a lifespan of about 30 years, especially the more disposable suburban ones.


I would really have to question that. The only reason many US malls are having trouble, is because as usual, they overbuilt.

If you go to Europe, or even Canada, for the most part malls are thriving.
In fact many malls particularly in Canada, are expanding and renovating.

The US just needs to right size itself in terms of retail. Dead malls are more a symbol of having way too much retail in one area than anything else.

[mhays]

Seattle area malls don't close, at least not the major ones. We also build very few new ones aside from new moderate-sized concepts. Instead the current malls slowly densify, generally by adding retail and structured parking. This is a great aspect of growth management.

[novawolverine]

I would really have to question that. The only reason many US malls are having trouble, is because as usual, they overbuilt.

If you go to Europe, or even Canada, for the most part malls are thriving.
In fact many malls particularly in Canada, are expanding and renovating.

The US just needs to right size itself in terms of retail. Dead malls are more a symbol of having way too much retail in one area than anything else.


Overbuilding is not the only factor when it comes to malls living or dying. It is one factor, but management and demographic changes have an effect as well.

[Gresto]

I am fascinated by dead malls...
Same here, along with shuttered amusement parks, closed streets and highways, and the like. There's something profoundly creepy about pondering empty, derelict, weed-covered spaces that were once thriving with human activity. The impermanence and disposability is disturbing.

[J. Will]

There are very few malls in Seattle that COULD close. Outside Greater Downtown, the city proper only has one enclosed mall to begin with.

[Buckeye Native 001]

The only ones that readily comes to mind in Phoenix are Fiesta and Metrocenter. They're not completely dead (yet) but they've both seen better days.

[spyguy]

I don't have a comprehensive list or anything for Chicago, but there are quite a few that are dead or probably will die fairly soon. Off the top of my head, Randhurst Mall in Mount Prospect was torn down recently and replaced by Randhurst Village, a half-assed (IMO, compared to things going on elsewhere in the country) lifestyle center. St. Charles Mall was supposed to be replaced by a very ambitious and dense project that went nowhere as far as I know.

Maybe the most prominent but least talked about closing was that of Chicago Place, a vertical mall right on Michigan Avenue. Saks still occupies its floors on the north side, Talbots (south corner) was replaced by a 3 story Zara, and Allsaints took over what used to be the mall entrance in the middle. The rest of the retail space is supposed to be converted into either office space or a hotel.

[Centropolis]

uhhhhh.

1,2,3, plus another on life support...

[llamaorama]

Here's a partial list for Houston, from memory(yes I am a freak):

Closed/demo'ed, turned into something else-

Gulfgate Mall
Town and Country
Northline
Galvez(Galveston)
too many enclosed mini-mall and discount centers to count.

Mostly dead, but still open?

San Jacinto Mall
Spring Village or Deauville Mall

Office-ized

Westwood(still has Sears store, AFAIK)

Not the best:

West Oaks Mall
Greenspoint Mall
Northwest Mall
Pasadena Town Square Mall
Pavilions(still new but half-empty, also not truly enclosed but feels like it )
Marq*E(an entertainment center of some kind that has always been only half-successful)
too many enclosed mini-mall and discount centers to count.

Doing fine

Baybrook
Willowbrook
Deerbrook
Almeda
Sharpstown aka PlazaAmericas
Mall of the Mainland(Texas City, may belong on not the best list)
Katy Mills(weird late 90's thing with no traditional anchors, has a Bass Pro Shops).

Upscale

The Galleria(biggest and fanciest, a destination not just a place to shop)
Memorial City
First Colony(also attached to neighboring outdoor lifestyle center)
The Woodlands(also attached to multiple neighboring outdoor lifestyle centers)


Seattle area malls don't close, at least not the major ones. We also build very few new ones aside from new moderate-sized concepts. Instead the current malls slowly densify, generally by adding retail and structured parking. This is a great aspect of growth management.

There are very few malls in Seattle that COULD close. Outside Greater Downtown, the city proper only has one enclosed mall to begin with.


You guys sure about that?

Unless you really pay attention or are a local person with nostalgic memories, it's easy to miss a dead mall. Most of the dead ones in any city are 50s-70s single story ones that are unobtrusive and have still open big box frontage and look like any old strip mall. It's only if you poke around and notice an entrance between the shops that leads to a dark dusty wood-paneled corridor...

It's a more recent trend that the spectacular 2-story 1980's regional malls by the freeway that everyone knows about are dying.

[mhays]

llamaorama, I said "Seattle area" and of course there are many malls of all sizes.

[Doug]

Calgary never had that many enclosed malls, probably because it was relatively small during they mall heydays of the 50s and 60s. I can only think of a few enclosed malls that failed, but they were repurposed almost right away:
-TransCanada mall converted to a power centre with Safeway in early 90s
-MacLeod mall converted to power centre with Walmart and Revy in mid 90s
-Franklin mall converted to Asian themed grocery store in late 90s
-one on Centre Street North. Can't remember name but was replaced with a very attractive SuperStore

The four big malls in Calgary are thriving and amongst the top performers in North America:
-Chinook - recently expanded and rumours of additional expansion. Top 10 in North America for sales per square foot - Adjacent to LRT
-Market Mall
-Southcentre - Adjacent to LRT
-Cross Iron Mills - newest enclosed mall in Canada

The mid sized malls don't do as well but are still reasonably busy:
-North Hill - slowly being repurposed into mix use. Two condo towers already built. Several office towers planned
Malborough - reputation for being crime ridden, but still busy
-Deer Valley - about to receive big boost from Target
-Brentwood - mostly converted into strip mall but about to be transformed by University CIty TOD
-Northland - partially converted to strip mall but seems to do well with Walmart, Future Shop and professional space

The only truly dead mall is Eau Claire market which has been caught in development limbo for several years. The owner has plans for a massive mixed use redevelopment buy it was sidelined by the recession.

[rds70]

As you know, there are several that have closed up in the Denver area, namely Cinderella City (now a TOD), Villa Italia (now the mixed-use Belmar development), Buckingham Square (converted to a somewhat mixed-use development), and now Westminster Mall (going to be a major TOD, at least from the preliminary plans I've seen/heard about.

As for Pittsburgh, I don't know of any truly dead/closed malls, though there are several current ones which have seen far, far better days. These are Northway Mall and Century II Mall. Pittsburgh's malls tend to be pretty old already, and only a few of them are really healthy, quite frankly. Not sure what's going to happen with Pittsburgh Mills, though the last time I was there a LOT of it looked to be vacant or drastically underused. :(

Aaron (Glowrock)

Others in Denver:

* Southglenn Mall - now Streets at Southglenn
* Crossroads Mall in Boulder - now 29th Street

[quattordici]

The single mall in my area that is in the process of being closes will be developed into something else once it's shut down. There really aren't too many closed indoor malls in Alabama. Outdoor? There are quite a few more, but I think we still are below average compared to the rest of the country. I know Birmingham has 3 or so closed malls, and Montgomery has 1 or 2.

[animatedmartian]

Universal Mall (http://www.labelscar.com/michigan/universal-mall): Cut up and split into a dollar theater, a Target, and whatever stores were left that weren't closed.

Livonia Mall (http://www.labelscar.com/michigan/livonia-mall): Redeveloped into a single Walmart with the Sears anchor left behind.

Wonderland Mall (http://g.co/maps/sg3g2): Redeveloped into a Walmart with extra vacant land.

Macomb Mall (http://g.co/maps/nud85): Currently on it's last few years of the cycle. I think the anchoring Sears store was recently closed.

Summit Place Mall (http://www.labelscar.com/michigan/summit-place-mall): Dead.

It actually seems like these malls were simply replaced by single big box stores. There's 4 or 5 other regional malls that all operate completely fine but they're actually a lot larger and spaced farther apart. There's a few others that have seen better days but are also built within areas already stocked with retail. It's an interesting phenomenon.

[bgwah]

For the Seattle area, the Totem Lake Mall in Kirkland hasn't been doing well for a long time. I don't know if it would be called a dead mall, though.

[LMich]

Hmmm...strange. Maybe this is a more big-city issue with closed malls, because the closed malls around my area are still very the strongest, or at least premiere, retailers of the bunch. Instead of being transformed or demolished, they've simply been routinely renovated.

[MolsonExport]

I love perusing deadmalls.com but christ what an outdated site. Like a time machine back to mid 1990s Internet interface. Rather like the dated malls that the site profiles.

[miketoronto]

Hmmm...strange. Maybe this is a more big-city issue with closed malls, because the closed malls around my area are still very the strongest, or at least premiere, retailers of the bunch. Instead of being transformed or demolished, they've simply been routinely renovated.

That is true in most places. The only places for the most part having issues with malls, are cities which have way too many malls for their population.

At the end of the day people just don't shop everyday aside from things like food. Having a mall with every chain store you can think of every couple blocks just can't sustain itself.

[WilliamTheArtist]

There were 3 main malls in Tulsa. None of them have closed per say, 2 are doing well and one has been converted into office space.

Woodland Hills is the largest mall and was built in the 70s. When it was built it was so far outside the rest of the city's development, past cow pastures and fields and down 2 lane roads, that people laughed and said "Nobody will go waaaay out there to shop, what are they thinking?". But after it was built the whole area around it turned into a major retail corridor that is still the largest concentration of retail in the region. It was said that early on old Sam Walton, of Wal-Mart fame, flew over the area in a helicopter and said "some day this will be the center of Tulsa". Many would say that he was right.

The area continues to suprise me in that it has never really "decayed" or become blighted but continues to reinvent itself. I think mainly it's because the mall was so large combined with the large amount of retail and dining around it, that no other area afterwards could possibly out compete it. Then add to that it was directly between Tulsas own growth and its largest and fastest growing suburb. Then add to that the large amount of apartments and hotels still going in nearby and of course the tax dollars it pumped into the areas school district making that district very attractive (the facilities are better and larger than a lot of universities). And the area is still growing, infilling and adding new stuff all the time. I personally despise the area, but sometimes you can't help but go there because its got the biggest and best stores of every type and often the only store or first of many things in the city. Heck the mall area recently got an Aloft before our downtown did lol.

[novawolverine]

That is true in most places. The only places for the most part having issues with malls, are cities which have way too many malls for their population.

At the end of the day people just don't shop everyday aside from things like food. Having a mall with every chain store you can think of every couple blocks just can't sustain itself.

What if in 1980 the area surrounding a mall is middle-upper class and safe and in 2010, it's lower-middle class and not all that safe? When that happens and the clientele changes, the stores change and maybe it's more difficult to attract high-quality anchor stores and chains that have better margins. Maybe the mall's management hasn't been good.

Overbuilding is a factor, take the DC area for an example, there haven't been any new decent malls built in the last decade plus, but the population has increased and even the dead malls were thriving alongside the still-successful ones at one period in time maybe 10-15 years ago. There is more consolidation with the better malls becoming better, and people driving 30 minutes to an hour to the mall rather than 10-20 minutes. But, most of the dead malls are in areas that have seen better days. You also have the rise of town centers and outdoor retail areas that may not be as popular in other areas of the country.

Also, Cirrus' graphic includes places that most people would necessarily think of as a mall, but rather very small enclosed buildings with barely any stores.

[Private Dick]

More of a strip mall than an actual mall (though there were interior corridors), the Harborcreek Mall in the Erie, PA suburb of Harborcreek Township was only open for about a decade before closing in the mid 80s. It sat blighted until 2010 when it was finally torn down for a senior living development. Natives of northern PA, NY state, and Ontario will certainly recognize the Loblaws grocery chain name.

It was an interesting case of failed land-use planning and was always cool to me to see how nature was reclaiming the site. By the time demolition occurred, it appeared as if the light towers were sitting amid a grass field, as if the parking lot never existed. I got a weird, apocalyptic thing for abandoned suburban retail for some reason...

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3245/2410579902_f95d226476_z.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7893328@N08/3501154576/

[Cirrus]

Almost all of the malls that are closed on my map are still retail. They're just a different form of retail. It isn't that retail was overbuilt, it's that the specific form the retail took was no longer working. As I noted in my initial post, the malls have been redeveloped as either big box centers or town centers. In many cases the retail square footage is higher now than it was when they were malls. IIRC, there is only one on the entire list that is flat out closed.

But of course, that's irrelevant to Mike's predetermined narrative. I am always amused at how he picks up one fact that might be true in one place and then clings to it as if it's a universal truth everywhere at all times. Some poor sucker refutes him, then he pops back a page or two later and just repeats himself from before.

Very lulzy, Mike. Good trolling. +1 internet for you.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7278/7042149921_bce915ab33_o.jpg

[Lakelander]

Jacksonville, Florida (I just happened to do an article on this a few years back):

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7057-mall-aerial.jpg


Philips Mall (1960) - Jacksonville's first enclosed mall. Converted into an office complex called Metro Square in the early 2000s.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7058-p1150298.JPG


Normandy Mall (1963) - Closed in 1994. Purchased by Potter's House Christian Fellowship in 2002 and converted into a partial mall, outdoor retail strip and 4,000 seat church sanctuary.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2042-p1040348.JPG


Gateway Center (1967) - Once Jax's largest for several decades, now mostly vacant and being converted into a medical mall.

Regency Square Mall (1967) - Still open but taking a beating by recently opened Lifestyle Centers (St. Johns Town Center and River City Marketplace).

Roosevelt Square Mall (1968) - Repurposed in 1997 as an open air shopping center.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3797-p1080701.JPG


Orange Park Mall (1975) - Still open.

Grand Boulevard Mall (1983) - Converted into a community college campus in 1994.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/P1160184.jpg


Jacksonville Landing (1987) - A Rouse festival marketplace. Still open but interior mall is pretty much dead.

The Avenues (1990) - Still open.

[Cirrus]

Grand Boulevard Mall (1983) - Converted into a community college campus in 1994.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/P1160184.jpg

That's fascinating. I wonder if people like it.

[WilliamTheArtist]

Kind of a reverse transformation story. Our second largest mall the Promenade, which is by my house, was once a nice Lifestlye Center from the 60's and I remember strolling around it as a kid, but then by the 80s it was radically tranformed and turned into an indoor shopping mall. And because the neighbors wouldn't budge to allow for expansion, they built up adding floors, movie screens on top of movie screens "the stairs are quite steep lol", a parking garage in front and a 5 story parking garage to the back. I like that it is so close to the neighborhood and not surrounded by vast seas of parking. I am just a few houses down, nice split level 50s ranch, and can easily walk to it. There are a lot of apartments nearby as well and a univerity across the street so there are quite a few people who walk to this mall. Not something many can do with the typical mall. Though I might have liked it better today had it been kept as a lifestyle center.

[zilfondel]

Kind of a reverse transformation story. Our second largest mall the Promenade, which is by my house, was once a nice Lifestlye Center from the 60's and I remember strolling around it as a kid, but then by the 80s it was radically tranformed and turned into an indoor shopping mall. And because the neighbors wouldn't budge to allow for expansion, they built up adding floors, movie screens on top of movie screens "the stairs are quite steep lol", a parking garage in front and a 5 story parking garage to the back. I like that it is so close to the neighborhood and not surrounded by vast seas of parking. I am just a few houses down, nice split level 50s ranch, and can easily walk to it. There are a lot of apartments nearby as well and a univerity across the street so there are quite a few people who walk to this mall. Not something many can do with the typical mall. Though I might have liked it better today had it been kept as a lifestyle center.

We have a place that has a similar history to it in Portland, Oregon. However, it is only 2 stories tall, and is only a few miles from downtown. Lots of nice homes in the surrounding area, as well as office midrises and apartment towers. However, most of the parking is underground in those odd butterfly parking split-level garages from the 1960s.

Oh, I almost forgot the former outdoor ice skating rink that is now indoors.

Lloyd Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_Center)

[ColDayMan]

For Cincinnati, Swifton Commons and Cincinnati Mills are not closed but they are damn near it. Well, Swifton Commons is a giant black church now and Cincinati Mills is...umm...adding go-karts? Other than that, all the other malls are "healthy."

For Dayton, we razed all our closed malls.

For Columbus, there's Brice, Westland, and New Market Malls, all are pathetic. The rest are all doing fine.

[J. Will]

For the Seattle area, the Totem Lake Mall in Kirkland hasn't been doing well for a long time. I don't know if it would be called a dead mall, though.

Wasn't that supposed to get some huge redevelopment. What happened to those plans?

[hudkina]

In the initial mall-boom of the 50's and 60's, Metro Detroit built a dozen large regional malls between 1954 and 1970. They basically served a population of 4.2 million, or essentially around 350,000 per mall. That doesn't include regional shopping centers or smaller enclosed centers.

1. Northland Center - 1954
2. Eastland Center - 1957
3. Wonderland Mall - 1959
4. Pontiac Mall(Summit Place) - 1963
5. Macomb Mall - 1964
6. Livonia Mall - 1964
7. Westland Center - 1965
8. Universal Mall - 1965
9. Oakland Mall - 1968
10. Tel-Twelve Mall - 1968
11. Somerset Mall(Somerset Collection) - 1969
12. Southland Center - 1970


In the late 70's, three new super regional centers were built.

13. Lakeside Mall - 1976
14. Fairlane Town Center - 1976
15.Twelve Oaks Mall - 1976

Throughout the 80's and 90's the super regional malls drew customers away from the smaller, older centers. An additional two malls opened during that time:

16. Laurel Park Place - 1989 (a smaller center)
17. Great Lakes Crossing - 1998 (one the largest malls in the U.S. when completed)

So by 2000, there were 17 malls that served a population of 4 million, or less than 250,000 per mall. The first of the original dozen malls to close was Tel-Twelve Mall. It was essentially killed by Twelve Oaks Mall built a few miles down the road. It closed in 2001. The next to close was Wonderland Mall in 2004, with most of its customer base moving to Laurel Park Place or Fairlane Town Center. 2008 saw the closure of Livonia Mall (smack dab in the middle of Twelve Oaks and Fairlane) as well as Universal Mall. The last to close was Summit Place, originally known as Pontiac Mall, killed by the presence of Great Lakes Crossing.

The next likely candidate for closure among the original dozen is probably Macomb Mall. It too has been affected by the presence of Lakeside Mall as well as the general expansion of big box retail.

Even through five of the original malls have closed, they were essentially replaced. As there were 12 in 1970, there are still 12 in 2010.

Here's a pic:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5346/7043147979_99b8f00ba6_o.png

The green dots represent the seven original malls still in operation. The red dots represent the five original malls that have since closed. The purple dots represent the five primarily massive super regional malls that have been built since the late 70's.

[llamaorama]

That's fascinating. I wonder if people like it.


Yeah.

It would be interesting to hear the opinions of people here who are actual real estate people or architects, but it makes sense to me.

Of all the things that you could do with an old mall, turning it in an educational facility seems very reasonable actually. You have lots of rooms branching off wide interior corridors that flow well by design, the anchor stores can become a gym, library, or shop, there are big restrooms, the food court could become a student center or cafeteria with utilities/vents for food prep equipment already existing. There is going to be tons of parking for either commuting college students or high school sports facilities.

I wonder about heating and cooling and building maintenance costs though, and if those old big boxes designed to last only 30 years are falling apart?

[Hayward]

I love perusing deadmalls.com but christ what an outdated site. Like a time machine back to mid 1990s Internet interface. Rather like the dated malls that the site profiles.

That's what's great about it. It plays to strength of the content.


I got to check out Dixie Square in Harvey, IL before it got leveled these past few weeks

Let's go shopping!!!
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3266/2657866024_b6534865dd_b.jpg

JC Penney, keeping with their plans to renovate all stores, built this beautiful two story atrium
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3188/2657866402_299c89a971_b.jpg

You'd easily score LEED credits here:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3074/2657036937_271727d44f_b.jpg

State of the art escalators with modern safety systems
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3155/2648760686_7e75a13efe_z.jpg

Uuuhm...not really sure.... "Lifestyle Centre?"
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3155/2650332492_1d2a4608d2_b.jpg

[MolsonExport]

Dixie Square Mall is the ultimate! There are some videos devoted to this shrine of decrepitude.

[Lakelander]

Yeah.

It would be interesting to hear the opinions of people here who are actual real estate people or architects, but it makes sense to me.

Of all the things that you could do with an old mall, turning it in an educational facility seems very reasonable actually. You have lots of rooms branching off wide interior corridors that flow well by design, the anchor stores can become a gym, library, or shop, there are big restrooms, the food court could become a student center or cafeteria with utilities/vents for food prep equipment already existing. There is going to be tons of parking for either commuting college students or high school sports facilities.

I wonder about heating and cooling and building maintenance costs though, and if those old big boxes designed to last only 30 years are falling apart?

I'm a Graduate Architect, although I work as an urban planner. From my perspective, its a pretty good use for this space. This particular mall died a quick death when a mall three times its size opened a mile away, six years after it was completed. When Florida State College at Jacksonville decided to purchase and convert it into a branch campus, it was barely ten years old. Over the last decade, the branch campus has grown into the space and added a parking garage on the compact suburban site about a year ago.

http://www.fscj.edu/mydegree/campuses/deerwood-center/assets/images/slides/Deerwood_1.jpg

http://www.fscj.edu/mydegree/campuses/deerwood-center/assets/images/slides/Deerwood_2.jpg

http://www1.fccj.org/South_Maint/Images/Deerwood/Deerwood_Map.jpg

This directory is out of date but it gives you a good idea of how the shopping center's mall was modified for educational purposes. Since then, the school has expanded into the mall's former Jacobson's Department Store. The first floor of Jacobson's includes Science Labs, a Student Life Center, Bookstore, Performance Theatre, Fitness Center, and Café. The second floor is the school's new enlarged library.

Images from FSCJ's website: http://www.fscj.edu/mydegree/campuses/deerwood-center/index.php

[Lakelander]

Also, this isn't an enclosed mall but I thought it was a decent reuse of a large abandoned strip mall. I drove past this "auto mall" in suburban Augusta, GA last month:

http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Augusta/i-3vTLTRT/0/L/P1530622-L.jpg

http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Augusta/i-hwQMfXn/0/L/P1530618-L.jpg

http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Augusta/i-rhrgjjd/0/L/P1530616-L.jpg

[bgwah]

Wasn't that supposed to get some huge redevelopment. What happened to those plans?

The recession? :shrug:

[Don B.]

The only ones that readily comes to mind in Phoenix are Fiesta and Metrocenter. They're not completely dead (yet) but they've both seen better days.

You forgot Park Central Mall, Phoenix's first suburban shopping mall. It opened in 1957. By the early 1990s, it was largely abandoned, and then a strange thing occurred...it re-invented itself as an office center, and some 20 stores and restaurants still survive there, including a gay bar (Kobalt).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Central_Mall

Maryvale Mall opened in 1960 at 51st Avenue and Indian School Road. I quote from Wikipedia:

By the mid 1990s, the mall area had a crime problem and was virtually shuttered. Fortunately John F. Long devised a way to reinvent the area and possibly save portions of the mall. The property was sold to the local school district at a heavily discounted price. Eventually portions of the mall became a Middle School, and Elementary School, police station, and community center, and the section that once housed a Mervyn's was demolished and became a Wal-Mart Supercenter. Only some of the mall's original buildings still stand, many have been razed or are significantly altered making it difficult to tell what they originally were, although two of the mall's entrance towers remain and provide reference points to the original entrances.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryvale_Mall

Chris-Town Mall opened in 1961 at 15th Avenue and Bethany Home Road. Again, Wikipedia has some info:

The next decade would not be a kind to Chris-Town Mall following the rapid closure of many anchor stores beginning with The Broadway in 1994, JCPenney in 1997, the bankruptcy of Wards in 2001 and the closing of the final anchor, Dillard's in 2004. The closures of the major department stores also brought about the permanent closure of the life sized sand sculptures exhibit that adorned the mall for many years.

Beginning the new millennium the mall underwent a rebirth with a new name, Phoenix Spectrum Mall, and a Grossman Company Properties financed redevelopment was underway. The new spectrum of discount stores replacing the old upscale one started with the demolition of The Broadway and replacement by Walmart. The $10 million renovation project also included the addition of the first Costco to be located in an enclosed mall, followed by the division of the Wards department store into a Petsmart and Ross Dress for Less. Walgreens, a long time resident relocated outside the mall to the northwest corner of the parking lot, with Big 5 Sporting Goods replacing that location in the mall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christown_Spectrum_Mall

:)

--don

[BevoLJ]

Austin has had a few, but the only one still closed is our oldest mall, Highland Mall. Others like Westgate have been turned in to other things, mostly retail. Highland Mall closed recently and was bought by Austin Community College. They have this grand plan for the huge urban campus, but I'd bet they hold on to the land for a bit and sell it to some developer for a huge profit.

[mhays]

Many of these examples are symptoms of too much land being available, and poor public policy. (Commercially-zoned land near major roads)

With too much land, it's too easy to build new malls. Also, it means there's less in/up pressure for infill replacement development.

The growth management argument is difficult in many regions, particularly places that don't get much growth and might feel like they should accept any development they can get. But it can sure helps restrict outward growth, and it puts way more value on infill sites.

Tax systems that overrely on sales taxes, and keep revenues local, end up putting suburbs against each other. They not only allow malls to replace each other, but often throw money to encourage this!

We also build roads where they're not needed, and expand roads to anticipate/enable sprawl, heavy on leapfrogging retail, sometimes tied to the tax revenue point and sometimes not.

[Doady]

I think people prefer malls over power centres. It's just that the mall concept requires anchor tenants, and the department stores that have traditionally acted as anchor tenants are dying, and malls cannot survive without them. People prfer malls over power centres, but they also prefer big box over department stores. But when the department stores lose, so do the malls.

[flar]

Many of the 1950s to 1970s malls in Ontario have been torn down and replaced with "Power Centres". Ottawa seems to be a bit of an exception on that, there are quite a few old malls that are still going strong. In Hamilton, places like the Centre Mall and Mountain Plaza were demolished and replaced with big box stores. Even in my hometown of Wallaceburg, Ontario, the mall was mostly demolished and replaced with a Walmart and a few other box stores. Same thing in Chatham with the North Maple Mall and in Sarnia at the Lambton Mall.

[TarHeelJ]

Carolina Circle Mall opened in 1976 in Greensboro NC as a regional mall with an ice rink in the center and Montgomery Ward as one of its anchors. It was demolished in 2005 after years of decline and is now a Wal Mart/Lowe's power center.

Carolina Circle Mall in it's heyday
http://www.retrojunk.com/img/art-images/aerialview1978.jpg
http://www.retrojunk.com/details_articles/4676/

[theWatusi]

The only one in Bucks/Montgomery County that I can think of was the Richland Mall in Quakertown. It closed in the early 90's and now a regular strip mall.

Much to the disappointment of MikeToronto, the King of Prussia Mall is doing fine.

[miketoronto]

Many of the 1950s to 1970s malls in Ontario have been torn down and replaced with "Power Centres". Ottawa seems to be a bit of an exception on that, there are quite a few old malls that are still going strong. In Hamilton, places like the Centre Mall and Mountain Plaza were demolished and replaced with big box stores. Even in my hometown of Wallaceburg, Ontario, the mall was mostly demolished and replaced with a Walmart and a few other box stores. Same thing in Chatham with the North Maple Mall and in Sarnia at the Lambton Mall.

I would have to say you have to classify it a bit more.
I don't think there are many if at all any major regional malls in Ontario which have closed down. In fact almost all of them have renovated and are more popular than ever, and even adding stores.

Some smaller malls or neighbourhood malls yes have turned into power centres. But that is a more a symptom I think of people just going to the larger regional malls.
Why go to the small mall when a regional mall is only a couple more blocks away? If anything the small malls are a result of overbuilding during the first suburban boom.

Overall we have too much retail and all these closed malls are showing that.

[ardecila]

There are few malls in Chicagoland that are truly dead. There are struggling ones, though.

Basically, the pattern goes like this:


1970s/1980s: mall opens in 2nd-ring suburb, becomes favorite hangout for teen crowd, wildly successful with growing families.
1990s: demographics in the area shift. former mallrats grow up and leave, empty nester parents either stick on or retire outside the community. vacant homes are filled by working-class families and the mall's tenant mix shifts.
2000s: the big-box revolution gains a foothold in this maturing suburb and walmart/target/best buy open up in a new power center.
2010s: mall is 1/3 to 1/2 empty, with fly by night transitional tenants like "as seen on tv" or "framed art".

This can describe Yorktown, Charlestowne, Stratford Square, Spring Hill, Hawthorne, and Fox Valley, among others.

There are several strategies these malls have used. Either they de-mall, removing the roof and becoming a lifestyle center, or they get replaced wholesale with a new lifestyle center (in wealthy areas) or power center (in middle-class areas). Some malls dating to the 1960s have drastically lowered their rents and attract small businesses, especially around ethnic communities. I'm thinking about Golf Mill, Lincolnwood Town Centre, etc.

[ardecila]

Interestingly, Chicago was the site of some mall innovation.

Open-air shopping centers were somewhat common in California, but Philip Klutznick (a mega-developer and later Jimmy Carter's Sec. of Commerce) built three large outdoor malls outside Chicago in the 1950s and 60s, anticipating the lifestyle center movement by 40 years. Notably, they featured strong modernist design. The architects, Loebl Schlossman Bennett, saw no reason to enclose the pedestrian areas - this saved lots of money in heating/air conditioning and discouraged loitering in the winter months. Surprisingly, even cold weather did not deter shoppers and still does not today.

Park Forest Plaza, Oakbrook Center, and Old Orchard Center all still exist. The latter two have been consistently successful for decades after deciding to become regional destinations for upscale shopping, and the original modernist sections are still intact. Some parts of Park Forest Plaza still exist, although there is virtually no retail remaining, having been replaced by civic and community spaces.

Unfortunately the Park Forest Plaza didn't survive quite long enough to see today's mid-century revival. It's a shame.

http://www.interestingideas.com/roadside/west/arch/plaza62.jpg

[Buckeye Native 001]

You forgot Park Central Mall, Phoenix's first suburban shopping mall. It opened in 1957. By the early 1990s, it was largely abandoned, and then a strange thing occurred...it re-invented itself as an office center, and some 20 stores and restaurants still survive there, including a gay bar (Kobalt).

Dammit, and I should've known that, seeing as how I worked there (United Healthcare) for a year and a half...

[AviationGuy]

Austin has had a few, but the only one still closed is our oldest mall, Highland Mall. Others like Westgate have been turned in to other things, mostly retail. Highland Mall closed recently and was bought by Austin Community College. They have this grand plan for the huge urban campus, but I'd bet they hold on to the land for a bit and sell it to some developer for a huge profit.

Highland Mall sure was a great place at one time. In the 70s and 80s it was the place to be...nice stores, people watching, etc. It's sad to see it go. Northcross Mall, which was in my neighborhood, had the ice skating rink, theaters, food court, specialty shops, and it's gone, too, having been replaced in large part by a Walmart. That land could have been developed with dense housing, but Walmart won out in spite of a huge protest (and litigation) by neighborhood associations.

[hudkina]

Interestingly, Chicago was the site of some mall innovation.

Open-air shopping centers were somewhat common in California, but Philip Klutznick (a mega-developer and later Jimmy Carter's Sec. of Commerce) built three large outdoor malls outside Chicago in the 1950s and 60s, anticipating the lifestyle center movement by 40 years.

Most early suburban shopping centers were open air designs. Northland Center, built just outside of Detroit in 1954, is often considered the benchmark for the modern suburban shopping mall, yet it was built with an open air design. It wasn't until a few years later that a fully enclosed mall was built, unsurprisingly in suburban Minneapolis. Even still, most of the Malls built in the 1950's used open air designs, and were only enclosed years later.

The funny thing about modern "lifestyle centers" is that they are essentially the mall concept as it was imagined in the 1950's.;)

[plinko]

Kind of a reverse transformation story. Our second largest mall the Promenade, which is by my house, was once a nice Lifestlye Center from the 60's and I remember strolling around it as a kid, but then by the 80s it was radically tranformed and turned into an indoor shopping mall. And because the neighbors wouldn't budge to allow for expansion, they built up adding floors, movie screens on top of movie screens "the stairs are quite steep lol", a parking garage in front and a 5 story parking garage to the back. I like that it is so close to the neighborhood and not surrounded by vast seas of parking. I am just a few houses down, nice split level 50s ranch, and can easily walk to it. There are a lot of apartments nearby as well and a univerity across the street so there are quite a few people who walk to this mall. Not something many can do with the typical mall. Though I might have liked it better today had it been kept as a lifestyle center.

Didn't there used to be another mall right across 41st Street from Promenade? It seems like when I lived there in 1990 that there was one. Is it still there?

Utica Square was always my favorite place if needing to shop when I lived there, but usually we went to Woodland Hills (closer to where we lived).

[ardecila]

Most early suburban shopping centers were open air designs. Northland Center, built just outside of Detroit in 1954, is often considered the benchmark for the modern suburban shopping mall, yet it was built with an open air design. It wasn't until a few years later that a fully enclosed mall was built, unsurprisingly in suburban Minneapolis. Even still, most of the Malls built in the 1950's used open air designs, and were only enclosed years later.

The funny thing about modern "lifestyle centers" is that they are essentially the mall concept as it was imagined in the 1950's.;)

Hmm, didn't realize this. I mentioned the California ones because they're still around, but Northland Center was eventually enclosed and probably many others as well.

Old Orchard and Oakbrook are still unique by virtue of being some of the last major open-air malls standing in the Midwest.

Are there any recently-built, modernist lifestyle centers out there? It seems like all of them are imitations of historic architecture by way of Disneyland. Many 1970s enclosed malls were built in a late-Modernist "Brutalist lite" style that used 45-degree angles as well as right angles. Once the Postmodernist craze hit in the 1980s, every mall was trying to be some carnival, circus, fair, or "urban marketplace", replete with pastel colors.

[Minato Ku]

I don't know any closed mall in Paris area but I know some mall that are quite dead.
Chelles 2 opened in 1996 (700,000 sq ft).
It is not dead as it has always around 40 store open in the lower floor and few ancor chain like Carrefour or H&M but the upper level is empty.

Boissy 2 opened in 1974
There are still some store open but outside a Casino supermarket and few low income immigrant shop but most of the mall is empty and run down.

I was not totally right when I said that I didn't know any closed mall.
Beaugrenelle mall (opened in 1970's) is closed but a bigger mall is under in construction at the same place.

[nito]

I don't know any closed mall in Paris area but I know some mall that are quite dead.
Chelles 2 opened in 1996 (700,000 sq ft).
It is not dead as it has always around 40 store open in the lower floor and few ancor chain like Carrefour or H&M but the upper level is empty.

Boissy 2 opened in 1974
There are still some store open but outside a Casino supermarket and few low income immigrant shop but most of the mall is empty and run down.

I was not totally right when I said that I didn't know any closed mall.
Beaugrenelle mall (opened in 1970's) is closed but a bigger mall is under in construction at the same place.I think there are three key reasons why it is hard to find such examples in Europe:
- Europe was less auto-centric than North America when the first generation of malls developed, so they were never built here.
- We also have entrenched and concentrated retail cores in our towns and cities that are hard to supplant.
- When Europe got around to developing malls or out-of-town retail parks it was the late 1980's. These developments were also typically large and even have heavy rail stations (e.g. in the UK: MetroCentre, Meadowhall, Bluewater, Lakeside, etc...).

It is interesting reading how these first generation (or later) malls are now accommodating different uses, which is better than the sites becoming overgrown wastelands.

[hammersklavier]

In Delaware County near Philadelphia there is the infamous MacDade Mall, essentially untouched after its construction in the 1950s. It survived as a discount/necessities mall (anchored by an Acme and a Kmart) into the 1990s but now is totally dead.

Another interesting retail relic is the Bazaar of All Nations (http://www.thebazaarofallnations.com/), which was replaced by a (whodathunkit?) really big Acme in the 1990s.

[JDRCRASH]

The Hawthorne Mall is the only closed down mall in the LA region that I know of.
At least that's what I heard. I havn't been there in a long while though, so I could be wrong.

I'm sure this has to do with the fact that LA is so suburban mall-oriented due to its automobile use.

[Crawford]

I don't know any closed mall in Paris area but I know some mall that are quite dead.
Chelles 2 opened in 1996 (700,000 sq ft).
It is not dead as it has always around 40 store open in the lower floor and few ancor chain like Carrefour or H&M but the upper level is empty.

Boissy 2 opened in 1974
There are still some store open but outside a Casino supermarket and few low income immigrant shop but most of the mall is empty and run down.

I was not totally right when I said that I didn't know any closed mall.
Beaugrenelle mall (opened in 1970's) is closed but a bigger mall is under in construction at the same place.

I saw a "dead mall" in St. Denis, near the Metro station, a few weeks ago (I was visiting the cathedral). It was some 60's-style urban mall in the pedestrian area, and looked almost totally vacant.

[Minato Ku]

Weird, the last time, I been in Basilique de St Denis mall, it was pretty busy.
I heard that Virgin closed but it wasn't the only shop here.
Maybe we don't speak of the same mall or it will be closed for renovation.