How to get Americans riding bikes.

[jtown,man]

End the insane laws against riding on sidewalks.


In the town I went to school at(pop around 60k), NO ONE actually walked on the sidewalks, and still, no riding on the sidewalks. People in Japan do it, it slows riders down.

Discuss.

[jtown,man]

People over the age of 12 are scared of traffic, as they SHOULD be.

[harryc]

Not sure where J Town is, but here in Chicagoland the sidewalks are not only used by pedestrians, but can be fairly crowded. Bicycle use is WAY up over the last 3 decades - riding in the streets.

Now Greenfield Mi..... that's another story.

[jtown,man]

Not sure where J Town is, but here in Chicagoland the sidewalks are not only used by pedestrians, but can be fairly crowded. Bicycle use is WAY up over the last 3 decades - riding in the streets.

Now Greenfield Mi..... that's another story.

Yeah lol I was trying to make my post short and sweet. Let me expand: Big, busy cities can at least argue for no riding on side walks, but come on, the vast majority of communities can not make that justification. Even in a place like where I am now, Austin, could very well have bikers and walkers on the side walks, in about 98% of areas.

[Wizened Variations]

Lower the minimum wage, throw out medicare and Medicaid, eliminate all social security, throw out food stamps, and, raise the price of gas to $10.00 a gallon. Tax wealth to the tune of 10% of all wealth per year, eliminate all tax deductions...

We'd be biking everywhere. Stealing them too.

Could happen.

[emathias]

The lure of sex worked for me. YMMV.

[edluva]

get out of the mentality that sharrows qualify as infrastructure for a start. also, get out of the mentality that urban biking involves becoming a bike messenger

[ardecila]

Most suburbs and small cities don't prohibit sidewalk riding. However, many sidewalks still don't have curb ramps, many sidewalks have extreme settlement bumps between squares, etc. The street is just a better surface to ride on, because it's usually better-maintained.

[Jasonhouse]

I usually ride on the sidewalks here in Tampa, but considering this area is quite literally a death trap for riders and peds, I don't really give a shit about the potential ticket or whatever. I've never been approached about it either.

[lrt's friend]

You really need segregated bike paths and lanes. If you ride in mixed traffic regularly, it is only a matter of time before a car will hit you.

[Busy Bee]

Turn the bike into a gun.

[Steely Dan]

Turn the bike into a gun.

:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

absolutely perfect and so true!

our society is fatally diseased.




"and that's how, with a few minor modifications, you can turn a regular gun into 5 guns"

http://i.imgur.com/XlUCyy2.png
source: http://i.imgur.com/XlUCyy2.png

[jtown,man]

Well, I appreciate humor.

But does anyone think allowing bikers on sidewalks would help get more people riding?

My only experience outside the US is in Japan. The people there ride slow.

In the US, we are forced to ride in the street, which leads to two things:

1. We are forced into dangerous situations with cars and trucks.

2. We ride MUCH faster than riders in some other countries. Its ridiculous. It is only natural though, you try to drive as fast as you can to keep up with traffic or try to be as safe as possible(in your head at least)

Allowing people to ride on sidewalks could foster a slower riding culture, with less people in skin-tight suits flying down highways and more people with baskets and kids riding to the store.

[Steely Dan]

But does anyone think allowing bikers on sidewalks would help get more people riding?
from my chicago perspective, absolutely not. side are for walking, not vehicular traffic. i mean for little kids, sidewalks are ok, but every time i see an adult riding down the sidewalk, i want to push them over. bike riding is illegal on chicago sidewalks for good reason: it's called a sideWALK, not a sideRIDE.

bikes should be ridden in the street, or better yet in bicycle-specific lanes in the the street, or better yet in protected bicycle ROWs in the street.

[jtown,man]

from my chicago perspective, absolutely not. side are for walking, not vehicular traffic. i mean for little kids, sidewalks are ok, but every time i see an adult riding down the sidewalk, i want to push them over. bike riding is illegal on chicago sidewalks for good reason: it's called a sideWALK, not a sideRIDE.

bikes should be ridden in the street, or better yet in bicycle-specific lanes in the the street, or better yet in protected bicycle ROWs in the street.

Alright, in a place like Chicago, lets say the road as a "bike lane" on it. Would you think widening the sidewalk to include the width of the previous bikelane with either periodic dividing rods(don't know a better term) or just a plain white line seperating the sidewalk by uses marked BIKES<>PEDS could work? I would think combing peds plus bikes in a safe environment would be more attractive than bikes and cars.

[audiomuse]

If we want large amounts of people riding bikes.. we need Dutch style protected bike lanes on every major thoroughfare.

Protected bike lanes should be as ubiquitous as sidewalks (at least on major thouroughfares). For quiet neighborhood streets, no bike facilities are necessary and for quiet city streets painted bike lanes are fine.

Groningen, Netherlands
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv38J7SKH_g

http://usa.streetsblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/dutch-bike-lanes.jpg

http://www.streets.mn/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/20130919-Cycle-Track.jpg

[electricron]

If we want large amounts of people riding bikes.. we need Dutch style protected bike lanes on every major thoroughfare.

Protected bike lanes should be as ubiquitous as sidewalks (at least on major thouroughfares). For quiet neighborhood streets, no bike facilities are necessary and for quiet city streets painted bike lanes are fine.

I believe there are two.lessons to be learned from the Dutch, (1) segregated bike lanes and (2) flat terrain. Planners can build lanes to fix (1), but I'm afraid nothing can be done to fix (2). I don't ride bikes recreationally mainly because it is too difficult to climb hills. I don't think Americans will ever ride bikes to commute in the same numbers as the Dutch, dedicated lanes or not.

[Steely Dan]

I believe there are two.lessons to be learned from the Dutch, (1) segregated bike lanes and (2) flat terrain. Planners can build lanes to fix (1), but I'm afraid nothing can be done to fix (2).

but there are some major american cities that are blessed with very flat, dutch-like terrain: chicago, miami, houston, & detroit come immediately to mind.

[mousquet]

I believe there are two.lessons to be learned from the Dutch, (1) segregated bike lanes and (2) flat terrain. Planners can build lanes to fix (1), but I'm afraid nothing can be done to fix (2). I don't ride bikes recreationally mainly because it is too difficult to climb hills. I don't think Americans will ever ride bikes to commute in the same numbers as the Dutch, dedicated lanes or not.
:haha: Braveness, deep breath and then healthy physical condition that comes along sure can fix that. :yes: Yes, climbing is painful, burning your thighs to hell, then going down fast is much, much fun. When that constantly alternates with flat grounds too, it's just awesome. Why do you think the Tour de France is such a legend in cycling? They cycling freaks are all full of dope to win it. Sure the Americans can do it. Some did already.

[Crawford]

but there are some major american cities that are blessed with very flat, dutch-like terrain: chicago, miami, houston, & detroit come immediately to mind.

But there's a third advantage in Netherlands- generally mild weather. None of those four U.S. cities have mild weather. Really none of those four are practical for year-round biking.

[Doady]

I think the main issue with biking is density. If everything is low density and far away, people are not going to bike regardless. It's the same as walking. People are only willing to walk or bike a certain distance.

And if you have a road network that doesn't allow people walk or bike in a reasonably straight line, that's also effectively an increase in distance, so that doesn't work either.

I think also that allowing people to bike on sidewalks is not a good idea, and it's not even necessary anyways, as Audiomuse's post explains.

[Steely Dan]

Really none of those four are practical for year-round biking.

most years, chicago is very bikable year-round.

this winter, with its -50 windchills and never ending snow, has been a true outlier. it's been the worst winter since the late '70s/ early '80s when chicago was hammered by a series of savage winters.

the previous 4 winters i rode my bike to work the vast majority of days.

[HomeInMyShoes]

I think the main issue with biking is density. If everything is low density and far away, people are not going to bike regardless. It's the same as walking. People are only willing to walk or bike a certain distance.

And if you have a road network that doesn't allow people walk or bike in a reasonably straight line, that's also effectively an increase in distance, so that doesn't work either.

I think also that allowing people to bike on sidewalks is not a good idea, and it's not even necessary anyways, as Audiomuse's post explains.

We've been building non-pedestrian and non-bike environments for a lot of decades now. I'm glad I live where I do with a reasonble grid and amenities to make short trips and emergency meal groceries a two block walk.

People really are lazy. My three year old can go on his run bike for a six or seven kilometer outing with me. There's no good reason other than flat out laziness that more people can't.

[Steely Dan]

People really are lazy.
multiply this statement by ten for people of the american sub-species, at least in terms of physical movement.

never before has our planet witnessed a society where so many people are so utterly appalled at the notion of walking half a mile.

we americans constantly ask ourselves why our cities suck compared to other places.

it's because WE suck. sucky people make sucky cities.

[jtown,man]

If we want large amounts of people riding bikes.. we need Dutch style protected bike lanes on every major thoroughfare.

Protected bike lanes should be as ubiquitous as sidewalks (at least on major thouroughfares). For quiet neighborhood streets, no bike facilities are necessary and for quiet city streets painted bike lanes are fine.

Groningen, Netherlands
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv38J7SKH_g

http://usa.streetsblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/dutch-bike-lanes.jpg

http://www.streets.mn/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/20130919-Cycle-Track.jpg

Thanks for the post and pictures, that is EXACTLY what I was trying to portray in my last post(although poorly).

[jtown,man]

Weather is a huge deal. However, there are plenty of peds and bikers in hellhole hot places around the world, of course this is prob due more to income than lifestyle.

Anyways, we need:

1. New laws, making bikes more comparable to walking than a motocycle
2. Wider sidewalks or more protected bike lanes.
3. Encourage employers to help their workers use transit/walk/ride by having showers/lockers etc
4. Hardest of all, change American's ideas on biking and walking. In some places, riding the bus=poor. Walking=poor. Riding a bike=poor. This is mostly not the case in larger cities, however, I think most of yall know what I am talking about.

You change how Americans *think* about non-car transport, change some laws, spend some money, get with employers...bam...things could change.

As far as density, sure, that is a issue. However, I live on the far-western border of Austin, near Cedar Park(SE corner of 45/183 if you wanna google it). This area does not pretend to be urban. However, I am a 4-15 minute walk(and obviously shorter bike ride) from Wal Mart, 3 gas stations/convenience stores,about 15 fast food/restaurants(IHOP 24/7), mall, movie threatre and a lot of shopping. Oh yeah, there is also a train station about 20 min walk from here. My point? Well, there is a heck of a lot of crap for me to get to within my own suburban area. Is it ideal? No. Would it be doable if attitudes were changed, infrastructure improved etc? YES!

[FREKI]

You really need segregated bike paths and lanes. If you ride in mixed traffic regularly, it is only a matter of time before a car will hit you.

Absolutely!


I would not commute by bike if we did not have segregated bike paths here in Copenhagen..


As for the idea of riding on the sidewalks in post 1 - that sounds like a bad idea to me - it's a mess in Japan and it keeps riding speeds significantly down..

[edluva]

in addition to infrastructure, we need laws giving drivers and cyclists proportionate responsibility for proportionate ability to cause harm, the same way it is with pedestrians always having right of way even when they are at fault. as it currently stands, police in the US almost always side with drivers in bike-auto accidents

[edluva]

it's because WE suck. sucky people make sucky cities.

yes we do suck. Americans have a lot to learn about civic-mindedness. the best of our cities still keeps me wanting for much more.

[jtown,man]

Absolutely!


I would not commute by bike if we did not have segregated bike paths here in Copenhagen..


As for the idea of riding on the sidewalks in post 1 - that sounds like a bad idea to me - it's a mess in Japan and it keeps riding speeds significantly down..

Please elaborate. I lived there for almost four years combined, never saw that. Bike bells are very well used and understood in Japan, if that is what you mean.

[SHiRO]

This didn't get any response the first time I posted it, but since we have a thread discussing exactely what this vid is about, here it is again.

G4qgzsaNN7s

[mthd]

bikes on the sidewalks? absolutely positively not, at least in america's denser cities.

in san francisco there are twice as many pedestrian commute trips as bicycle commute trips, and almost 5 times as many other types of pedestrian trips than other types of bike trips. unless you want to force a huge number of those people off the sidewalk and into cars, bikes need to be separated. the capacity of bike lanes is so much dramatically lower than a sidewalk that they should not replace sidewalks except where distances are far too great for walking. doing so would ruin the few walkable neighborhoods this country has.

the number of people bicycling is definitely increasing in most cities, which is good - as long as those trips are offsetting private vehicle trips, and not pedestrian trips or transit trips.

[Jasonhouse]

A bicycle trip offsetting a transit trip is preferable, no?

[jtown,man]

bikes on the sidewalks? absolutely positively not, at least in america's denser cities.

in san francisco there are twice as many pedestrian commute trips as bicycle commute trips, and almost 5 times as many other types of pedestrian trips than other types of bike trips. unless you want to force a huge number of those people off the sidewalk and into cars, bikes need to be separated. the capacity of bike lanes is so much dramatically lower than a sidewalk that they should not replace sidewalks except where distances are far too great for walking. doing so would ruin the few walkable neighborhoods this country has.

the number of people bicycling is definitely increasing in most cities, which is good - as long as those trips are offsetting private vehicle trips, and not pedestrian trips or transit trips.

In busier areas I think a widening of the sidewalk would work to allow both peds and bikers to have space. If there was already a "bike lane"(aka small shoulder with a bike picture every 1/4 mile) extend the sidewalk over it and mark the sidewalk for the two uses.

[electricron]

In busier areas I think a widening of the sidewalk would work to allow both peds and bikers to have space. If there was already a "bike lane"(aka small shoulder with a bike picture every 1/4 mile) extend the sidewalk over it and mark the sidewalk for the two uses.
I can't believe you think pedestrians and cyclists will stay in their designated half of the same sidewalk, when they can't stay in separate halves of trails. Example, the Katy Trail in Dallas that has paved hard surfaces for bikes and soft surfaces for pedestrians, with pedestrians using both surfaces all the time. There's bike and pedestrian crashes weekly and this trail is designed for recreation purposes. For commuting purposes cyclists need dedicated lanes in streets, hopefully protected by more than a painted line.

[initiald]

The spandex riders give cycling a bad rap. People only think of cycling as a sport/competition and not as transportation. Also, I agree riding on the sidewalk should be the norm like in Japan, unless there are specific bike lanes. Also, some people will hate this, but bicycles have no place on roads where the speed limit is above 35 mph.

[Doady]

We've been building non-pedestrian and non-bike environments for a lot of decades now. I'm glad I live where I do with a reasonble grid and amenities to make short trips and emergency meal groceries a two block walk.

People really are lazy. My three year old can go on his run bike for a six or seven kilometer outing with me. There's no good reason other than flat out laziness that more people can't.

Going on a seven kilometre outing is one thing, but doing seven kilometres in both directions to/from work for 14 km total every single weekday is another thing. In that situation I'd rather just walk to the bus stop and wait the bus instead 60+ minutes of cycling every day. If using public transit is a sign of laziness, then as a regular transit rider I'm extremely lazy.

[mthd]

A bicycle trip offsetting a transit trip is preferable, no?

debatable. if bicycles decrease transit usage enough that the system becomes less robust - less funding, increased headways, etc, then what happens when the weather is horrible? or for trips too long or too steep for bikes? or for the elderly, disabled or otherwise infirm?

it really isn't all that exciting to arrive to work or an important meeting or a date in a soaking wet poncho. a bus or train and an umbrella are far more civilized and less of an imposition on the facilities at the end of your trip.

i would not personally support spending on bicycle infrastructure if it came at the expense of transit or pedestrian infrastructure/safety. it will never be a complete transit solution, but it's an extremely important adjunct to one.

[chris08876]

multiply this statement by ten for people of the american sub-species, at least in terms of physical movement.

never before has our planet witnessed a society where so many people are so utterly appalled at the notion of walking half a mile.

we americans constantly ask ourselves why our cities suck compared to other places.

it's because WE suck. sucky people make sucky cities.

Lol half a mile. Try like 50 feet. Some people will make a fuss about parking a car in a mall parking lot too far from the entrance. :yuck: God-forbid they have to walk an extra 40 feet. And its not like most people are handicap. Perfectly good limbs ready to be used, but neglected...

[Wizened Variations]

The spandex riders give cycling a bad rap. People only think of cycling as a sport/competition and not as transportation. Also, I agree riding on the sidewalk should be the norm like in Japan, unless there are specific bike lanes. Also, some people will hate this, but bicycles have no place on roads where the speed limit is above 35 mph.

Strongly agree on the spandex. And I also agree that very few bicyclists think of the bicycle as just one means to get somewhere.

Bicycle green lanes should have 35 mph speed limits, and, cops occasionally monitoring them with speed traps. In the US, bicyclists need to be able to get traffic tickets, with points assigned to licenses. If no ID, take offenders to the police station.

Bicycling works best in compact, low crime cities with good public transportation. Bikes work best as short distance vehicles one uses to get to a transit station or a neighborhood store.

Of course, my wife had one bike stolen and a front tire taken from another.... But, before the 2nd occurrence she could get to the light rail station from our house in 7 minutes.

[Steely Dan]

Going on a seven kilometre outing is one thing, but doing seven kilometres in both directions to/from work for 14 km total every single weekday is another thing. In that situation I'd rather just walk to the bus stop and wait the bus instead 60+ minutes of cycling every day. If using public transit is a sign of laziness, then as a regular transit rider I'm extremely lazy.

7 km is only 4 miles. that would take me roughly 15 minutes. that's a pretty short and easy bike ride in the grand scheme of things, and likely time competitive with public transit when talking in terms of door-to-door time.

[harryc]

most years, chicago is very bikable year-round.

this winter, with its -50 windchills and never ending snow, has been a true outlier. it's been the worst winter since the late '70s/ early '80s when chicago was hammered by a series of savage winters.

the previous 4 winters i rode my bike to work the vast majority of days.

My short (2mi) route has been do-able every day, injuries have forced me to take the bus a few weeks - and confirmed that if it is bitter cold I'd rather be on my bike than standing on a corner waiting for the bus.

[Steely Dan]

My short (2mi) route has been do-able every day, .

yeah, for a ride that short, anything is doable.

however, stretch that out to 15 miles, and a -50 windchill blasting you along the lakefront for an hour and it becomes a different story. that takes a truly hardened warrior. i choose a 3 block walk to the metra station and a 25 minute train ride over that.

[jtown,man]

I can't believe you think pedestrians and cyclists will stay in their designated half of the same sidewalk, when they can't stay in separate halves of trails. Example, the Katy Trail in Dallas that has paved hard surfaces for bikes and soft surfaces for pedestrians, with pedestrians using both surfaces all the time. There's bike and pedestrian crashes weekly and this trail is designed for recreation purposes. For commuting purposes cyclists need dedicated lanes in streets, hopefully protected by more than a painted line.

Well, they do it in other countries. In any case I would rather get hit by a bike than biking and get hit by a truck. I don't understand how we think one as more desirable than the other.

Also, when we think of bike riders here, we think of people going fast as they can. I am thinking more of a normal-speed pace that is typical of commuters in safe-riding areas.

[jtown,man]

Also, no I don't think bicyclist and pedestrians will stay completely separated. But I would rather bicyclist and peds mingle than bikes and cars. HOW many times have ya'll seen cars swerve into the bike lane, sometimes even when bikers are in the area!

So no, I don't believe there would be some perfect world. However, if bicyclist slow the hell down(since now they are trying to feel "safe" next to 18-wheelers) and peds are better educated(signs etc ) I think my idea of combined peds/bikes is superior to bike/car/truck situation we have today.

And lets get real, how many people do you guys think are out there who dont ride their bikes because they just don't feel safe or want to deal with the stress of riding in traffic? Count me in. Now how many people would stop walking because of bikes?

And in any case, my original point idea was not bikes flying down a sidewalk in midtown NYC. Rather, I am more arguing for the combination of bikes/peds on less-traveled sidewalks. If you travel outside places like Chi/NYC you would see the insanity of a biker riding in a tiny shoulder lane while the perfectly fine sidewalk next to him/her is completely free of peds for as far as the eye can see.

[jtown,man]

http://kxan.com/2014/02/15/cedar-park-police-investigating-hit-and-run/

Just this morning guy is ran over by a jeep about 3 miles from my house. hmmm

[FREKI]

Please elaborate. I lived there for almost four years combined, never saw that. Bike bells are very well used and understood in Japan, if that is what you mean.No culture of keeping to a certain side and often riding with an umbrella in one hand and viewing through crowds without slowing down makes for a negative experience for both pedestrians and bikeriders..

And unlike my first visit to Japan back in 2005 my visit this summer it had gotten worse and by no means a good solution for anybody.. ( but I did notice more lanes painted on the sidewalk compared to last time )

Bikes should have their own lanes just like pedestrians and cars..

If we could make it happen on our old small century old streets it can be done anywhere and if cities or nations are actually interested in making the bike a true alternative that doesn't jeopize health of you or others then investments and commitments are needed and letting bikers abuse the sidewalk leads to no good..