Gushing tribute to Toronto on NY Times among most emailed stories

[rousseau]

The love/hate thread for Toronto got closed down, and I'm not trying to start that rigmarole up again, but this is somewhat relevant, I think. A tribute to the food scene in Toronto by a writer for the NY Times is the 8th most emailed story on the site today.

When I tell my friends in Toronto how much I love their city, they often say, “Really?” I always assume they imagine I’m just trying to be gracious, or perhaps — with characteristic Canadian modesty — they’re reluctant to acknowledge how easy their city is to love.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/travel/torontos-ethnic-buffet.html?src=me&ref=general

I don't actually live in Toronto, I'm about two hours west of it, but I confess to feeling the same way as the "lovers" who proceed to gush further in the comments section, so this is essentially a "homer" post. I admit it.

But beyond that, I think that these kinds of articles are signposts on the journey Toronto is on toward maturing into a true national alpha city that, like it or not, will become Canada's signature city for outsiders. It may not actually get all the way there, but it's certainly moving in that direction.

It's an evolution I find fascinating. I suppose it helps that I like the place. I freely admit that this whole phenomenon would be irritating to me if I were living elsewhere in the country and honestly never took a shine to the city. As many on this forum have stated. I personally like to think that the growing ability of Torontonians to take criticism in stride is a sign of the maturation of our national conversation generally. It's healthy when the sincere inability to see the appeal of Toronto is met with a shrug instead of pettiness borne of insecurity.

This is a coming of age story.

[esquire]

I wonder how many of those are from Torontonians e-mailing the story back and forth to each other? I doubt that the e-mails are being generated by New Yorkers buzzing over the fact that you can get authentic Chinese delicacies in Markham.

Before I am accused of Toronto-bashing, let me say that Winnipeg wouldn't be any different... generally stories by foreign travel writers about this place make the rounds pretty widely. I'm sure that if the NY Times ran a piece on tourism in Winnipeg, it would be extremely widely circulated around here.

[ue]

Great to see Toronto getting this kind of positive international exposure in light of the whole Rob Ford fiasco. And I say this as someone living elsewhere in the country (though who has taken a shine to the city). Toronto is certainly rising in ranks and a lot is of good is coming out of it. Let's hope the momentum continues.

[rousseau]

Interesting move. I thought this would have been a relevant story for the main Canada section.

I agree that there are probably a lot of people in Toronto emailing the story, which would have boosted the emailing numbers. Though the comments seem to be half Torontonians and half non-Torontonians. Which is probably par for the course for this type of tourist article.

[middeljohn]

The fact that the Rob Ford story got so much international attention is indicative of how big Toronto has become.

[Martin Mtl]

Interesting move. I thought this would have been a relevant story for the main Canada section.

I agree that there are probably a lot of people in Toronto emailing the story, which would have boosted the emailing numbers. Though the comments seem to be half Torontonians and half non-Torontonians. Which is probably par for the course for this type of tourist article.

About creating a thread in the Canada section about articles in any international newspapers or magazine about any canadian cities ? This article would fit right in and we could add others in the thread. Just saying.

[vanatox]

The fact that the Rob Ford story got so much international attention is indicative of how big Toronto has become.

Not so sure about this one...

[middeljohn]

Not so sure about this one...

I think it makes a whole lot of sense. The onky reason it was considered significant enough to be "news" was is that Toronto is significant enough on the global scale for other countries to give a rats' ass, even if just for a chuckle.

"Crack-smoking Seattle mayor..." wouldn't have gotten nearly the attention. Toronto is approaching the elite status of being an international city now and will therefore be far more scrutinized for anything that isn't 100% right.

[shappy]

I think it makes a whole lot of sense. The onky reason it was considered significant enough to be "news" was is that Toronto is significant enough on the global scale for other countries to give a rats' ass, even if just for a chuckle.

"Crack-smoking Seattle mayor..." wouldn't have gotten nearly the attention. Toronto is approaching the elite status of being an international city now and will therefore be far more scrutinized for anything that isn't 100% right.

I don't know... it's probably very surprising to most Americans: "shit, I didn't even know they get crack up there!". The corny neighbour to the north having a mayor who smokes crack - damn. Perhaps makes us more relatable, and probably a part of the reason why it has become such a phenomenon down there.

[rousseau]

I don't know... it's probably very surprising to most Americans: "shit, I didn't even know they get crack up there!". The corny neighbour to the north having a mayor who smokes crack - damn. Perhaps makes us more relatable, and probably a part of the reason why it has become such a phenomenon down there.
I agree that Americans pretty much draw a blank on Canada, so having a total goofball in the news gives them something concrete to relate to instead of just "nice and polite." But it wouldn't have been constant fodder for talk shows if he was mayor of Calgary or Trois-Rivieres.

[shappy]

Trois-Rivieres I can see because of the French thing and hence reduced relatablility. Calgary (and certainly Seattle) I don't really buy. I mean, for a mayor, this guy has done and said a lot of ridiculous stuff. Just because he's Toronto's mayor doesn't make it any more news worthy.

[ACT7]

if you listened at the beginning to all the Rob Ford stories on CNN, etc, the one phrase that kept getting repeated is that this is happening in the 'fourth largest city in North America!" or that this is happening in 'a major city'. So I do think it's received so much traction, not only because it's a stranger than fiction story, but because of where it's happening and the name recognition that Toronto already had.

[miketoronto]

This is a great article that highlights what is probably Toronto's greatest asset, our diversity.
People say other cities are diverse. But Toronto takes diversity to a whole new level, that you don't even see in places like NYC, where the majority of the population is American born.

I have a friend from Toronto studying in NYC, and even he has stated that the diversity of ethnic food is much better in Toronto, and can be found in all areas, and is just such an integral part of the city, compared to say NYC or other cities with some diversity.

Again, other cities to offer diversity. But the level of diversity Toronto has, I don't think can be matched anywhere. And that has to do with just the sheer number of new immigrants from all over the world, and the large populations from each country.

Having grown up it in, I can say it was one of the best experience ever. Going to school, working, and making friends with people from all corners of the globe. I am in the USA right now, and it is amazing when people look at photos of my friends and I from Toronto, and ask questions about how interesting it is to see people of all different ethnic groups together, and such a large diversity of nationalities.

[ue]

But but...saying Toronto is extremely diverse obviously carries with it the underlying meaning that the United States is a bastion of conformity ;) ...

[isaidso]

Great to see Toronto getting this kind of positive international exposure in light of the whole Rob Ford fiasco. And I say this as someone living elsewhere in the country (though who has taken a shine to the city). Toronto is certainly rising in ranks and a lot is of good is coming out of it. Let's hope the momentum continues.

I watched the Rob Ford interview on Jimmy Kimmel courtesy of youtube. Of course he was going to get ribbed, but Toronto actually came out looking quite good. He shamelessly plugged the city, professed his love for the city, Kimmel echoed those sentiments, and the crowd applauded. When's the last time that happened on US television in front of millions of viewers?

I don't buy the argument that he's hurt Toronto's image, because people know better. If anything this has shattered people's perceptions that we're some stereotypically boring place where nothing happens. Toronto has moved past the point where things like this damage the city. Ironically, it seems to be doing the opposite.

[isaidso]

Again, other cities to offer diversity. But the level of diversity Toronto has, I don't think can be matched anywhere. And that has to do with just the sheer number of new immigrants from all over the world, and the large populations from each country.


I tell people in London that and they ridicule it as beyond the realm of possibility. They have tunnel vision for New York (and the US) and can't comprehend of any city on the planet beating London or New York when it comes to that very cosmopolitan of barometers: foreign born population. They react like you just shot their mother when you tell them they're 4th behind New York, Los Angeles, and Toronto in absolute numbers.

They're so self absorbed that they ironically come off as a bit provincial some times. They need to get out more and realize that there's a big world out there beyond London and NY.

[ACT7]

I tell people in London that and they ridicule it as beyond the realm of possibility. They have tunnel vision for New York (and the US) and can't comprehend of any city on the planet beating London or New York when it comes to that very cosmopolitan of barometers: foreign born population. They react like you just shot their mother when you tell them they're 4th behind New York, Los Angeles, and Toronto in absolute numbers.

They're so self absorbed that they ironically come off as a bit provincial some times. They need to get out more and realize that there's a big world out there beyond London and NY.
So, so true. Well said.

[SHiRO]

Except it is not true.

Greater London has over 3,2M foreign born residents (2011) and unofficially even more. Versus just 1,4M for the City of Toronto. So it's not even close. In fact, it's not even half.

And metro wise it's over 4M for London and 2,5M for Toronto. Still a 1,5M lead for London.

Londoners are absolutely right for calling out such blatant bullshit!

And guess what, Toronto is behind Paris as well! So it's not even a question of London being 4th, but of Toronto being 5th!

[miketoronto]

Except it is not true.
Greater London has over 3,2M foreign born residents (2011) and unofficially even more. Versus just 1,4M for the City of Toronto. So it's not even close. In fact, it's not even half.
And guess what, Toronto is behind Paris as well! So it's not even a question of London being 4th, but of Toronto being 5th!

You guys are not getting what people are talking about.
On a percentage wise, Toronto's foreign born population makes up a larger percentage of the population.

Also, cities like London, Paris, Miami, LA. They all tend to have immigrants from just a few places that make up a large percentage of the foreign born population. Where in Toronto, everyone is a so called minority, because we have large populations of immigrants from all around.

Yes there is diversity elsewhere. But I think you need to live in Toronto for to understand why Toronto is just on a whole different level.

It is not touting Toronto as better. It is just stating that Toronto's experiences are different from other places. Add to that Toronto's previous urban planning principles of mixing income levels and housing types, and you get into the situations where there has been a lot more mixing of cultures living close together than in other places.
I grew up for example in your typical 60's suburban subdivisions. But down the street from me was apartment housing. Kids from both places went to the same school, where I interacted with every new immigrant group that came through Toronto in that period. From the Jamican's, to the Polish fleeing communism, to one of my best friends who's family were Catholic refugees from Israel, right on down to the newest immigrants from Southeast Asia.

It is just totally different and I think you have to live in Toronto to see how different it is.

NYC has immigrants, but metropolitan wide, the percentage of immigrants is not as high, and there are whole swaths of the metro region where residents basically never interact with an immigrant.

So stop looking at it as touting Toronto as being better. It is just a different experience, and an outstanding and very rewarding experience at that.

[SHiRO]

No Mike you are not getting it. isaidso is claiming and has been claiming for years (despite having been proven wrong many times) that Toronto has more foreign born than London in absolute numbers. Just read back his posts, it's there in literally those words.

Yes the % of foreign born in Toronto is higher (53% vs 38% for London) but % of foreign born is not the only metric that influences a city's multiculturalism (just look at Dubai).

Toronto is not on a different level, certainly not from London, you can get the same experiences you describe in NYC, LA, London, Paris, Sydney, Amsterdam, Brussels (50% foreign born, 70% non native background) and a lot more places on the globe too!
(My closest friends are Iranian, Curaçaoan, Indonesian (but could easily have been Turkish, Surinamese (black or Hindustani), Moroccan, Bosnian or Polish) and I'm 1/2 Spanish myself (and I mean as in my father was born there, not I have a Spanish (or in your case Italian) last name. Mind you, I'm from a small city of 210,000 with a 25% non native population).

Toronto's immigrants are not more diverse than London's. They're mainly from China and South Asia (together almost a quarter of the population). London's immigrants come from even more places than Toronto's and in far larger numbers (except Chinese). Toronto boosters have convinced themselves otherwise, but it's just not true!

Your comment about intermixing is not true either, not culturally/racially and not socially. For instance LDN is 5% mixed race vs Toronto 1,5%. And London neighbourhoods are very mixed, there are no ethnic enclaves.

All this on itself however doesn't mean anything and it doesn't make either Toronto or London better or more unique.
But please let's stick to the facts. I mean it would be nice for Toronto boosters to just admit to the facts... Then you can keep your subjective feeling of uniqueness OK?

[Nouvellecosse]

I watched the Rob Ford interview on Jimmy Kimmel courtesy of youtube. Of course he was going to get ribbed, but Toronto actually came out looking quite good. He shamelessly plugged the city, professed his love for the city, Kimmel echoed those sentiments, and the crowd applauded. When's the last time that happened on US television in front of millions of viewers?

I don't buy the argument that he's hurt Toronto's image, because people know better. If anything this has shattered people's perceptions that we're some stereotypically boring place where nothing happens. Toronto has moved past the point where things like this damage the city. Ironically, it seems to be doing the opposite.

I honestly don't believe that's how stereotypes work. People form stereotypes based on a lack of information, so stereotypes will always exist except for people who have a decidedly rational thought process or have a greater level of knowledge of the city. There's no level that a city can reach where it becomes immune to this. There are even stereotypes of NYC and Paris. The people who already knew enough about it to not have a stereotypical image may not be influenced by the Ford situation, but for the ones who did harbour stereotypes, this would not have helped.

Most people, in the US at least, don't seem to have any image of Toronto at all and only have an image of Canada. That image has traditionally been one of straight-laced, polite, sensible, simpletons. Ford has managed to shatter that image and replace it with one of dense, loud, bumbling, simpletons. Try as I might, I just don't see that as an improvement. The old image may not have been ideal, but this one is worse.

As for the people who were already educated about Toronto, the Ford situation still provided some new information. First, that a large enough proportion of residents voted for him to allow him to get elected, and second, even after all the scandals, that Ford has still managed to maintain his position due to either a dysfunctional political process, continuing support, or both. This doesn't provide a positive image for either the city's electorate or the functionality of its municipal government.

Really, the idea that Ford has actually helped or improved... anything - reputation or otherwise - just seems like wishful thinking. It may not be all bad, but the bad is certainly equal to or greater than the good.

[Phil McAvity]

I honestly don't believe that's how stereotypes work. People form stereotypes based on a lack of information, so stereotypes will always exist except for people who have a decidedly rational thought process......

On the contrary, if i observe people behaving a certain way 4 out of 5 times and don't draw any conclusions from that behavior then i am not learning from my experience which is irrational. Like them or not, stereotypes are borne of experience and they exist because they are generally true.


Most people, in the US at least, don't seem to have any image of Toronto at all and only have an image of Canada.

I agree with you that most people are only vaguely aware of Toronto as a big Canadian city where the CN Tower is but Rob Ford's antics have put Toronto on the map which I don't see as a bad thing. Ford got people got people talking about Toronto whereas before they gave it little or no thought.

[C.]

I was in Toronto for work a few weeks ago...

This wasn't my first trip to Toronto, but did have a lot more free time than I did in the past to explore. With all the development news, I had very high expectations. Unfortunately, I left disappointed! It's a strange town with highrises rising from random neighborhoods all throughout the downtown core. It makes sense if it's a along a transit line, but these were just arterial roads that were not very walkable. Many of the new buildings in the core have sterile pedestrian realms and boring retail. Think drycleaners, banks, crappy variety stores, etc...

The thing that really got me disappointed was the whole Beer Store/LCBO government controlled facilities for dispensing alcohol. They were impossible to find without the help of Google and never open when I needed something anyway. It made the after parties in the hotel room very dull.

The highlight was riding the TTC. What a efficient and well designed system! I also enjoyed the different cultures represented in the city. The diversity of people of different backgrounds and incomes all getting along.

I'm expecting to be under siege by a horde of Toronto posters as soon as I hit Submit Reply, but just calling it as I see it.

[isaidso]

Every arterial road in the core is extremely walkable so I'm struggling to figure out exactly where you were. City Place is the only new development that fits that description. It's an outlier and faced a heap of criticism. The Beer Store/LCBO is a concept out of the East Bloc so I agree with you there.

At the end of the day, those days when locals looked to outsiders to validate their city are thankfully long gone. We know it's a great city and stacks up well to every other. Toronto ticks off more of my boxes than any other city and why I moved here. Only New York and Los Angeles receive more immigrants each year; people are voting with their feet.

London has recently joined that top group but wouldn't be any where close if it wasn't for free movement of people within the EU. Their numbers get massively bumped by eastern Europeans hopping on a train/plain to London. You can bet your bottom dollar if Canada had a similar agreement with the other 40+ countries in America, Toronto would get swamped.

[C.]

Every arterial road in the core is extremely walkable so I'm struggling to figure out exactly where you were.

What gives you the impression that I was just downtown? The city proper has many suburban style arterial roads. I was specially referencing my amazement that 30 storey tower would rise at random locations throughout the city, on arterials in North York and Scarborough. Normally, you would expect and encourage this development along stops on a metro line, but at best these were serviced by bus.. For the record, I was in North York, Scarborough, and on Yonge Street near Dundas Square.

I also near Yonge and Wessley (sp?). It was a community of high rise apartment complexesprobably built in the 60s or 70s. They were well maintained, but very much towers in the park, where consideration for cars came first, followed by pedestrian needs. It was walkable but had the same design characteristics of a housing project here in the north eastern United States. It was odd.

In New York and other cities along the east coast, there is a trend of gutting the ground floors of buildings built in the era of when the car reigned supreme and replacing them with a more pedestrian friendly environments, involving retail (a small grocery store) or other uses. The apartment neighborhood I was in seemed like they haven't been updated since the 60s since they were first built. But hey, at least the lawn was well manicured and the buildings maintained.

The retail at the base of the new skyscrapers going up downtown was just lame. Low ceilings, poor street frontage, and small areas usually no bigger to support a dry cleaners or subway restaraunt. So much missed potential.

I know you guys think the city is the greatest and you think most Americans never heard of it, but really, it's not that great and next time I'll be heading to Montreal on personal travel as I've heard great things and no silly liquor laws. I can't recommend Toronto to anyone other than transit enthusiasts. I know dry counties in the Deep South with more liberal liquor laws than the forth largest city in North America. Which reminds me, your bars close too early, too!!

[isaidso]

What gives you the impression that I was just downtown?

Read what you wrote. You specifically referenced the downtown core:

It's a strange town with highrises rising from random neighborhoods all throughout the downtown core. It makes sense if it's a along a transit line, but these were just arterial roads that were not very walkable. Many of the new buildings in the core have sterile pedestrian realms and boring retail. Think drycleaners, banks, crappy variety stores, etc... - CIA

The city proper has many suburban style arterial roads. I was specially referencing my amazement that 30 storey tower would rise at random locations throughout the city, on arterials in North York and Scarborough. Normally, you would expect and encourage this development along stops on a metro line, but at best these were serviced by bus.. For the record, I was in North York, Scarborough, and on Yonge Street near Dundas Square.

Toronto has followed a very different urban development than you'd find in the United States. Right up till the 1980s high rises seemed to pop up all over metro with little rhyme of reason to their placement. It still looks rather odd but they're providing the needed density to facilitate mass transit and established clusters on which to build larger 'nodes'.

The periphery has barely begun its intensification as it only stopped sprawling out about a decade ago. Intensification is mostly concentrated in the core and it will take decades before it makes a significant impact on the periphery. Eventually, metro will end up with 20-30 nodes. I (as do urban planners) consider it a huge advantage over US metros in the drive towards reducing congestion, travel times, and pollution.

I also near Yonge and Wessley (sp?). It was a community of high rise apartment complexesprobably built in the 60s or 70s. They were well maintained, but very much towers in the park, where consideration for cars came first, followed by pedestrian needs. It was walkable but had the same design characteristics of a housing project here in the north eastern United States. It was odd.

I live near there and those towers in the park are very much a product of their time. Toronto grew much faster in the 70s and 80s than most places in the US and why the city has so many of them. We stopped building those decades ago.

Despite the construction boom, the downtown core has quite a big footprint. We'll need another 200+ towers before it starts to fill in. The city only started building tall north of Queen 7 years ago so an expectation that it look built out from one end to the other is unrealistic.

In New York and other cities along the east coast, there is a trend of gutting the ground floors of buildings built in the era of when the car reigned supreme and replacing them with a more pedestrian friendly environments, involving retail (a small grocery store) or other uses. The apartment neighborhood I was in seemed like they haven't been updated since the 60s since they were first built. But hey, at least the lawn was well manicured and the buildings maintained.

That makes a lot of sense for NYC. We do see a few buildings on main strips like the Mink Mile re-configure their ground floors, but Toronto won't see that sort of thing on a grand scale till the core fills in first.

The retail at the base of the new skyscrapers going up downtown was just lame. Low ceilings, poor street frontage, and small areas usually no bigger to support a dry cleaners or subway restaraunt. So much missed potential.

Like what for instance? There are some that have been a disappointment in that regard, but the vast majority of them have huge podiums for retail.

I know you guys think the city is the greatest and you think most Americans never heard of it, but really, it's not that great and next time I'll be heading to Montreal on personal travel as I've heard great things and no silly liquor laws. I can't recommend Toronto to anyone other than transit enthusiasts. I know dry counties in the Deep South with more liberal liquor laws than the forth largest city in North America. Which reminds me, your bars close too early, too!!

Lousy attempt to depict your conclusions as gospel and people here as provincial types that have never been anywhere. I'm from London, UK have lived in Montreal and been to New York many times. I considered all 4 to lay down roots in. I chose Toronto and don't regret my decision one little bit. I'm hardly alone. A good 53% of people in Toronto were born outside Canada so it's one of the most cosmopolitan places on earth.

We don't all choose what's best based on the proliferation of easy access liquor. That sounds more like something a frat boy from Starkville, Mississippi might say. ;)

[C.]

So I did reference the downtown core. My bad.

As for missing potential. You're well traveled, use your imagination.

On your last point. You're looking through the lens of whether Toronto is a good place to live, which it is. I'm looking through the lens of whether it's a good place to vacation. Not so much in my opinion. I'm not saying being a tourist town like Orlando is desirable, but better efforts could be made to be attractive to visitors. Again, just my opinion from the visit.

The mix of cultures is what I liked most about Toronto. The liquor laws and conservatism sounding this area, the least. It was very suprising as Toronto is a very progressive city except in this one area. And yes, there are industries where folks drink excessively on a normal day (pharmasitical sales has a reputation for being wild. American urban planners too! You can tell from where they decide to hold their professional conventions). If extending a work trip to incorporate a little vacation, and with a predisposition due to Irish heritage, you damn right I could drink a frat boy from anywhere under the table, and be proud of it. :cheers:

I didn't post in the Toronto forum with the intent to troll. It's just that I had an expectation heading into the city as a tourist and left feeling underwhelmed. Based on all the construction threads, I was really excited and expecting something more.

[Tony]

But really, the Beer Store / LCBO thing isn't the fault of the City. It's a Provincial thing.

But yeah, I can see how such stuff can put a damper on tourist who just want to party & drink.

Being a person who doesn't care for such things, I travel to explore and eat and have no such problems here or anywhere else for that matter.

[Acajack]

But really, the Beer Store / LCBO thing isn't the fault of the City. It's a Provincial thing.

But yeah, I can see how such stuff can put a damper on tourist who just want to party & drink.

Being a person who doesn't care for such things, I travel to explore and eat and have no such problems here or anywhere else for that matter.

Not sure blaming the province really works though. Toronto is the biggest city in the province by far and close to half the members in the legislature are from Toronto and its suburbs. Toronto is also the capital of the province and all of its public servants and policy-makers reside there.

It's not really true that it's people in Listowel and Timmins who are holding Ontario back from having more liberal liquor laws.

For certain things anyway (and booze is a prime example) there is a prudent, conservative streak that remains strong even in the heart of bustling, diverse, cosmopolitan Toronto.

[1overcosc]

So I did reference the downtown core. My bad.

As for missing potential. You're well traveled, use your imagination.

On your last point. You're looking through the lens of whether Toronto is a good place to live, which it is. I'm looking through the lens of whether it's a good place to vacation. Not so much in my opinion. I'm not saying being a tourist town like Orlando is desirable, but better efforts could be made to be attractive to visitors. Again, just my opinion from the visit.

The mix of cultures is what I liked most about Toronto. The liquor laws and conservatism sounding this area, the least. It was very suprising as Toronto is a very progressive city except in this one area. And yes, there are industries where folks drink excessively on a normal day (pharmasitical sales has a reputation for being wild. American urban planners too! You can tell from where they decide to hold their professional conventions). If extending a work trip to incorporate a little vacation, and with a predisposition due to Irish heritage, you damn right I could drink a frat boy from anywhere under the table, and be proud of it. :cheers:

I didn't post in the Toronto forum with the intent to troll. It's just that I had an expectation heading into the city as a tourist and left feeling underwhelmed. Based on all the construction threads, I was really excited and expecting something more.

I would agree, Toronto's not necessarily a tourist mecca IMO. It's a great place to live and invest, but not necessarily visit as a tourist unless it's part of a multi-destination trip of Canada.

It is the best place to experience what Canadian multiculturalism is all about. A true city of the world.

There are changes in the pipeline with liquor laws but don't hold your breath for anything drastic :(

[Ramako]

For the record, I was in North York, Scarborough, and on Yonge Street near Dundas Square.

I also near Yonge and Wessley (sp?).

Just curious... what other parts of downtown did you explore? It sounds like you were only on Yonge between Wellesley and Dundas.

[C.]

I spent a lot of time on Yonge. Yorkville (I won't share the nickname I had for this place except to say it wasn't a positive), down to the Air Canada Center. I also rode the streetcar on Gerrard street and walked around at a few of the stops outside downtown. I was also on Yonge in North York.

I got a chuckle out of the underground PATH system. PATH is also the name of a subway system servicing NYC and nearby communities west of the Hudson River, so I was curious.

The days I were they were particularly chilly and didn't explore or walk as much as I usually do when exploring a city.

[TownGuy]

Meh, Toronto is deep multifaceted city, definitely takes some time, it grows on you. On the flip side some more touristy cities get old once the intial fascination wears off. Toronto doesn't seem to put much effort into wowing tourists, for good or for bad. At the same time that may be better than these facades some places try to present.

[C.]

I mostly agree. It's just not a town I'll probably spend New Year's Eve again. If anyone is curious, check some of the travel reviews of Toronto.

[Acajack]

I would agree, Toronto's not necessarily a tourist mecca IMO. It's a great place to live and invest, but not necessarily visit as a tourist unless it's part of a multi-destination trip of Canada.

:(

And yet many Torontonians (or at least many forumers from there) seem to think that Toronto is totally, already there as a tourist mecca.

They do have pretty good numbers as far as overnight stays go, but there is always a debate with non-Torontonians as to how many of those are business travellers (the city is a huge economic powerhouse) and visiting friends and relatives (as a huge migratory hub), as opposed to how many people are visiting the city for other reasons.

[Ramako]

I spent a lot of time on Yonge. Yorkville (I won't share the nickname I had for this place except to say it wasn't a positive), down to the Air Canada Center. I also rode the streetcar on Gerrard street and walked around at a few of the stops outside downtown. I was also on Yonge in North York.

I got a chuckle out of the underground PATH system. PATH is also the name of a subway system servicing NYC and nearby communities west of the Hudson River, so I was curious.

The days I were they were particularly chilly and didn't explore or walk as much as I usually do when exploring a city.

It sounds like you missed a lot of Toronto's most interesting areas such as the Distillery District, Kensington Market, Entertainment District, Queen West and China Town. To your credit, it's difficult to really appreciate what those neighbourhoods have to offer in the dead of winter when everyone stays indoors, but I'd strongly recommend visiting again the spring or summer before passing judgement on the city.

I agree that it's difficult imagine anyone outside of Canada putting Toronto on their list of cities to visit purely for the sake of tourism (as there aren't too many things about Toronto that are notably unique), but if someone happens to be here for whatever reason, there are loads of things to do.

[C.]

Thanks for the tips Ramako. Kensington Market sounds like it would be a cool place. I did a little googleing and it does look like a neat little area of the city. I would have never found that on my own. I've been to Toronto several times before, mainly on in and out business trips. I always thought Yonge was the main drag. From what I'm hearing, that's not really the case. I consider myself an urbanist, so I did try and venture out as much as possible and explore other areas of the city to experience how they feel. Not trying to hijack the thread to discuss my own personal travel experience. Just wanted to add another perspective to the conversation.

Toronto may be an amazing city for residents, but it could use a tad of work making it more inviting to visitors. It's only an hour and a half, $250 round trip from NYC, and just received that positive review in the New York Times. A lot of potential, but I can't honestly recommend it to folks looking to escape for the weekend, at least not to the degenerate alcoholics I work with. ;)

[Acajack]

Thanks for the tips Ramako. Kensington Market sounds like it would be a cool place. I did a little googleing and it does look like a neat little area of the city. I would have never found that on my own. I've been to Toronto several times before, mainly on in and out business trips. I always thought Yonge was the main drag. From what I'm hearing, that's not really the case. I consider myself an urbanist, so I did try and venture out as much as possible and explore other areas of the city to experience how they feel. Not trying to hijack the thread to discuss my own personal travel experience. Just wanted to add another perspective to the conversation.

Toronto may be an amazing city for residents, but it could use a tad of work making it more inviting to visitors. It's only an hour and a half, $250 round trip from NYC, and just received that positive review in the New York Times. A lot of potential, but I can't honestly recommend it to folks looking to escape for the weekend, at least not to the degenerate alcoholics I work with. ;)

A word of caution: be careful not to dwell too much on the liquor laws (as archaic as they might be - I totally agree) as for some reason you'll get quickly labelled as an obsessed alcoholic on there and this will taint your other observations and views in the eyes of some, for some reason.

[shappy]

Thanks for chaperoning Acajack

[Gerrard]

They do have pretty good numbers as far as overnight stays go, but there is always a debate with non-Torontonians as to how many of those are business travellers (the city is a huge economic powerhouse) and visiting friends and relatives (as a huge migratory hub), as opposed to how many people are visiting the city for other reasons.

The debate is really just with you. And mostly because your anecdotal evidence is apparently the go to reference for stats Canada.

I imagine his review of the city has given you enough fapping material to get you through this long winter.

[Tony]

Let's keep it civil shall we?

[Tony]

On your next visit CIA, you may find this handy:

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8186/8077669527_8046a8d567_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/diNaJg)Toronto - tourism (https://flic.kr/p/diNaJg) by SSP Tony (https://www.flickr.com/people/46596832@N02/), on Flickr

[C.]

^ Thanks!

[MonkeyRonin]

Toronto may be an amazing city for residents, but it could use a tad of work making it more inviting to visitors.


It could, but should it? From what I gather, you're from New York, a city that most locals seem to think was better before it rolled out the red carpet to Middle American tourists (I would be inclined to agree). Toronto on the other hand can be a very (passively) unwelcoming, secretive sort of place - closed-off to people who aren't locals or in-the-know visitors (of course, it's really not that hard to find out these sorts of things these days). But for those that are, its urban, cultural, and hedonistic delights are plentiful. A little "elitist" perhaps, but I think most of us would prefer to keep it that way than to water it down for mass consumption.

On the flipside, it is kind of embarrassing to think of the impression that most tourists must get considering just how dull and characterless the tourist pens we do have are. I wouldn't be opposed to putting more shiny baubles in these areas to entertain them at least. But let's keep the rest of the city for the people who actually live here or have some passion for it.



A word of caution: be careful not to dwell too much on the liquor laws (as archaic as they might be - I totally agree) as for some reason you'll get quickly labelled as an obsessed alcoholic on there and this will taint your other observations and views in the eyes of some, for some reason.


Oh, don't be daft. You know well and good that you're speaking in reference to Habsfanman, who's entire raison d'etre was that everything about Toronto is awful because there's no beer in corner stores and things close an hour earlier than they do in Montreal. And if you're someone that finds a city to be the urban equivalent of the seventh circle of hell because you have to walk an extra 10 minutes to grab a beer - you might just have a drinking problem. Either that or you're 15 and still think that it's the be all and end all of coolness.

We've otherwise had plenty of discussions on here about liberalizing liquor laws in Ontario, which have never had anything less than near-unanimous support, let alone accusations of alcoholism.

And it absolutely is relevant than it's a provincial issue. It's not because the people Timmins and Listowel are holding us back - most Ontarians, whether in Toronto or elsewhere want more liberal liquor laws - but because the provincial government has too much to lose by opening themselves up to competition. Either way, there's not really anything that the City can do about it.

[Acajack]

Oh, don't be daft. You know well and good that you're speaking in reference to Habsfanman, who's entire raison d'etre was that everything about Toronto is awful because there's no beer in corner stores and things close an hour earlier than they do in Montreal. And if you're someone that finds a city to be the urban equivalent of the seventh circle of hell because you have to walk an extra 10 minutes to grab a beer - you might just have a drinking problem. Either that or you're 15 and still think that it's the be all and end all of coolness.

We've otherwise had plenty of discussions on here about liberalizing liquor laws in Ontario, which have never had anything less than near-unanimous support, let alone accusations of alcoholism.

And it absolutely is relevant than it's a provincial issue. It's not because the people Timmins and Listowel are holding us back - most Ontarians, whether in Toronto or elsewhere want more liberal liquor laws - but because the provincial government has too much to lose by opening themselves up to competition. Either way, there's not really anything that the City can do about it.

CIA, who is not habfanman, was in fact taken to task on this very thread for mentioning the tighter liquor laws.

[MonkeyRonin]

CIA, who is not habfanman, was in fact taken to task on this very thread for mentioning the tighter liquor laws.


What? Who called him an "obsessed alcoholic"? You're just making shit up now. Every response in reference to his complaints of our liquor laws were in agreement, just with one that added that it's the province to blame rather than the city.

[Tony]

enough.. eesh.

[Acajack]

What? Who called him an "obsessed alcoholic"? You're just making shit up now. Every response in reference to his complaints of our liquor laws were in agreement, just with one that added that it's the province to blame rather than the city.

....


We don't all choose what's best based on the proliferation of easy access liquor. That sounds more like something a frat boy from Starkville, Mississippi might say. ;)

[MonkeyRonin]

....


That's still pretty far from throwing around accusations of being "obsessed alcoholics". Also it was in response to this trollish comment:


"I know you guys think the city is the greatest and you think most Americans never heard of it, but really, it's not that great and next time I'll be heading to Montreal on personal travel as I've heard great things and no silly liquor laws. I can't recommend Toronto to anyone other than transit enthusiasts. I know dry counties in the Deep South with more liberal liquor laws than the forth largest city in North America. Which reminds me, your bars close too early, too!!"


You'll also note that isaidso initially said "The Beer Store/LCBO is a concept out of the East Bloc so I agree with you there."

[isaidso]

People certainly like to take things out of context/twist things around so thank you Monkeyronin for re-posting what was actually said. At the end of the day we instinctively know we live in a fabulous city and stopped looking for validation from outsiders a long time ago. For those that still do there are a plethora of studies that indicate what locals have known for years:


Toronto is world’s best city to live in, Economist study says

The Globe and Mail
Published Friday, Jan. 30 2015, 6:50 AM EST

Toronto is the world’s best city to live in, according to a study of major metropolises by The Economist Intelligence Unit. And Montreal is the second-best, with Stockholm, Amsterdam and San Francisco rounding out the top five.

It is based on a ranking of 50 major cities by a new study of safety along with past rankings based on liveability and cost of living. Cities were further sorted according to past country rankings based on business environment, degree of democracy and food security.....


Link: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/toronto-is-worlds-best-city-to-live-in-economist-study-says/article22716436/

[M.R.Victor]

CIA, in my opinion, a touristic experience of Toronto which I find adequate for the seasoned traveler starts out at the Distillery District (morning coffee at Balzac's), moves up to King, then along King all the way over to Niagara. It hugs the arc of Niagara Street over to Trinity Bellwoods, crosses the park and ends up at Dundas and Ossington, with dinner on the Ossington strip.

This, in my opinion, would be a very good start, although it still only scratches the surface. That map Tony V posted, for example, excludes all but two of the nightlife areas in the core.

Cheers