[ChrisLA]

Come on guys, there is a couple things good about the Pike. I'm glad at least we have a movie theater with stadium seating, and I love the Borders Book store. The merry go round, well its okay. I can at least take my 5 year old great niece to ride it when she visiting from out of town. She enjoys it and for me I love the views of the ocean and the city.

I also like the concrete steps when a lot of the patrons hang out and eat ice cream. Game Works, well that's another story. My family seems to like visiting it every so often, to bowl, and play games. Since I'm not much into video games, its doesn't appeal to me. Besides two of my nephews work there, one is an assistant manager and I hate the way the treat him (I keep telling him to find another job, like ESPN at LA LIVE when they open :tup:).

I do realize the design isn't the best, and they need to make some improvements. I think the grass area along shoreline should have retail fronting it. They somehow need to figure out how the blend the complex with Pine Avenue, to have a continuous flow going in this section of downtown LB. Sure its not the best, but its also not the worse either. They just need a few adjustments in the design and bring in some better retail.

One problem I read too is retail looks a the far reaching radius population. They see downtown Long Beach as being isolated. There is nothing but the port to the west of us. San Pedro, and Palos Verdes although 10 mins away (across the bridge) the residents there seem to head west over to the south bay cities for entertainment, and shopping. To these folks LBC is a distance away, and don't see it as a much of a place to visit. They certainly don't have any beaches (although beautiful IMO) most will visit since we have the breakwater that prevents any waves hitting our shores. There are many factors that affect our city. Some also has to do with the poor neighborhoods to the north of downtown. I suspect that is a big factor why some retail won't set up shop.

[lbguymetro]

the pike either needs to be torn down or have its exterior design changed..more plants....water fountain..etc....i think they should find out what made the grove in LA very successful....im sure its not the chain stores but the ambiance......pike needs a lot of improvement compared to the pine....its dead most of the time!

[sopas ej]

Regarding the Pike, a friend of mine who moved to Long Beach a few years ago says that he avoids the Pike, his reason being that when he went to the cinemas there after they opened, he and his friend were put off by all the cholos that were there, he told me it was like going to the LA County Fair. The last time I was in that part of Long Beach was when I took my sister's little kids to the Aquarium a few years ago, which was an enjoyable experience, but I'm wondering about the Pike? Is it still a cholofest? Would anyone else rather see movies elsewhere?

Old Town Pasadena also used to have a gang element, during the early 1990s. Old Town at that point was already becoming nicer, but on Friday and Saturday nights you still saw the lowered cars with the cholos and the loud "boom-boom-boom" cruising down the Boulevard. By the late 90s, though, better policing, a crackdown on cruising and I guess the overall more upscale stores and restaurants that started opening up in Old Town Pasadena probably drove that demographic away, there obviously wasn't a reason for them to come to Old Town anymore. If the Pike is still all cholo'd out, I'm wondering if that will change anytime soon...

[lbguymetro]

let us give long beach credit for having been chosen as one of the top ten downtown turnarounds in the nation...as i would see long beach now, it definitely has improved a lot ...i moved out from long beach and lived in LA for three years...i actually had bought a unit in north hollywood but when i visited downtown long beach one time, i was amazed by the aqua towers that i changed my mind immediately and settled for a one bedroom unit instead of a supposedly three bedroom townhouse in north hollywood...this is all because of location and where in the world can we still find beach properties as affordable as long beach? ....my friends become surprised how beautiful long beach is when they go to the marina...ocean boulevard has also class on its own...and restaurants at pine avenue should never be underestimated..i often mention to them how i once thought of buying a condo unit in downtown LA or hollywood....and without hesitation, they would convince me that long beach is a great and wiser investment.....just a little more time and when long beach transforms itself into a busy shopping and recreational district, it will even be comparable to san diego! at this time, its definitely already a place where you can bring visiting friends from out-of-state..at least it looks way, way, way better than the stretch of hollywood boulevard and downtown LA:), or even other beach places in the vicinity...

[LAMetroGuy]

I have never seen a cholo at the pike. Maybe on the day your friend went to the movies, they had a cholo convention at the convention center and he just happened to run into them. Either way, is your friend okay? Was he attacked? Crazy!

[ChrisLA]

Me too, I've never seen a cholo fest there either, and I although I haven't been to the movies in a few months at the Pike, its usually where I go 95% of the time since its just a few blocks from my condo. I actually hate going over to the Long Beach Towne center for movies. I feel like I'm vising Disneyland or something, and the maze parking lot along with finding a spot at the crowded center drive me nuts. Over at the Pike I can walk to it or take the free Passport bus over to it.

[drisee]

uhhh...they don't call it gangworks for nothing guys.

sopas ej, you give a great description of why people don't seem to visit downtown long beach in general. people really do have a bad impression and rightfully so. but, it is getting better with time but the city needs to just keep raising the bar. that way like pasadena we can keep sending a new message and get people to rethink the downtown. definitely not impossible...with a few great projects and some good pr it can happen as it has with a ton of other cities around the world that used to be crap.

for the pike if they're going to keep it they should at least fill in the cross streets. what other outdoor type mall has something like that where cars run through. it's the worst piece of architectural planning i've seen in a long time and it's very LA to bend over backwards for the car. irvine spectrum, the block, fashion island, which one of these developments has cars driving through it?! at least start with that, if not then go with my other solution of blowing it up and starting over :)

i do like the movies though. big blockbusters are never sold out on opening nights due to most people being scared to go there...i rarely have a bad experience there and see movies there every couple of weeks.

[LAMetroGuy]

uhhh...they don't call it gangworks for nothing guys.

sopas ej, you give a great description of why people don't seem to visit downtown long beach in general. people really do have a bad impression and rightfully so.

I disagree 100%. I frequently visit the pike and I never see anything close to what sopas ej describes. I agree that the design is horrible (it was developed by a developer who only develops in suburban developments not urban developments). Just because people that visit this establishment are not all white doesn't make it "gangworks". That is a very ignorant thing to say... peoples style of dress, urban or whatever, doesn't automatically make them gangsters (i.e. cholos). You have to remember that Long Beach is a very diverse city and its gathering places will reflect that. If you don't like it move to one of the square states to the East. One thing is that the Blue line brings in lots of out of towners. Once LA Live is built, many of what you call "thugs" will use the Blue Line to travel North rather than South to the Pike. This way, the Pike area will stay clensed of diversity and cholo free! :rolleyes:

[ChrisLA]

I disagree 100%. I frequently visit the pike and I never see anything close to what sopas ej describes. I Just because people that visit this establishment are not all white doesn't make it "gangworks". That is a very ignorant thing to say... peoples style of dress, urban or whatever, doesn't automatically make them gangsters (i.e. cholos). You have to remember that Long Beach is a very diverse city and its gathering places will reflect that.

BINGO!

I don't have a problem with those who visit, and I visit GameWorks occassionaly since I have young nieces and nephews. Besides I have two that work there. Since I'm not into video games, its not really my cup of tea. What I do like is the bowling alley sometimes. But overall I've never had a problem over there. Granted its an establishment that has two bars, and any place where there is alcohol served you're bound to have problems every now and then. Now since my one of my nephews worked at GameWorks since it opened a few years back, I talk with him about those things. There hasn't been anything major happend, other than some drunk being kicked out for fighting at the bar.

[drisee]

LAMetroGuy...are you serious when you say you've never seen anything close to what sopas ej describes?? With all due respect you're either just getting lucky with the times/days you go or you're blind to it.

About a week ago somebody got shot right across from the Pike in front of the convention center and yes it was due to gang violence. I've personally witnessed gang disputes go down during broad daylight right on Pine. Walking back from the movies i've seen guys throw bottles at other cars and threaten violence. It would be ignorant of me NOT to recognize this as related to gangs. I didn't give it the name of Gangworks but it in my eyes it sure does fit most of the time. Hell, talk to a local cop next time you see one and ask them about it. They're constantly checking tats/gang affiliations.

The fact is there just aren't a lot of what i'll call "classy" people strolling around downtown long beach on any given night, especially the weekends. Sure, they're not all gangsters but you certainly don't get a friendly feeling. That's why i talk about raising the bar. Don't get me wrong i love the diversity, but the diversity can also be classy and right now it's not.

[LAMetroGuy]

LAMetroGuy...are you serious when you say you've never seen anything close to what sopas ej describes?? With all due respect you're either just getting lucky with the times/days you go or you're blind to it.

I think it is the otherway around... you have been UNLUCKY. I am VERY serious... I just went to see the simpsons this weekend and then had ice cream at cold stone and there was no sign of any type of gang activity. I think you are just paranoid. Everyday, i ride my bike through that area and I see nothing as you describe. You yourself said that you only visit every couple of weeks. I'm there almost every day. :rolleyes:

[drisee]

Sure, i'm paranoid.
http://www.presstelegram.com/ci_6439752?source=most_viewed

Sure it's only one incident but i've been witness to quite a few more. I think you're just in denial or do PR for the city. I feel like i'm listening to Bush as he argues about the war going well.

The least you could do is not misquote me. I said i go to the movies there every couple of weeks but i'm in the area almost every day.

If we want to agree to disagree that's fine by me but facts are facts.

[LB Life07]

I have to agree with LAMG I've lived in Long Beach for a while now, started off living near PCH and LB Blvd. and now Live near Redondo and 6th, I've seen a fair share of gang element in my old hood, nothing that goes down at the pike resembles that to me!! You may sometimes get young people who get a little drunk when it's party time! it's typical of the youth these days especially when there's alcohol around!! I've seen it in everyone from black,white, hispanic, and asian!! I think it's unfair to categorize all young ethnic groups who happen to be acting a little roudy as a gang! sometimes they are just a group of friends behaving in an ignorant manner!! Im not justifying either groups actions......I just hate the fact that sometimes it comes off as every young group of black or hispanics are viewed as a gang.....young groups of whites arn't really ever looked at like that....there just a group of youths having fun and it sometimes get out of hand!! Sure you have occaisonal gang members pass through!! hey....we live in the LA area, you can't stop it....I've seen these types at the Santa Monica pier!! I think it's also good to remember that not everyone who fires a gun at another person is a member of a gang!! Sometimes it's just a person with a gun who got angry for what ever reason and decided to shoot it!! anyway even if there are occaisonal gangs that pass through....these youths arn't going out with the intensions to just always start trouble and ruin your night....a lot of times there out just trying to have fun like you!! I go to the movie theatre all the time and don't feel in danger, I go to borders and walk down pine avenue!! That area of LB to me is a safe area especially with the police presence thats around. You can't leave your house and expect not to have an occaisonal bad experience, it shouldn't prevent you from traveling to specific areas because you miss out on the good things these places have to offer!!! You just have to be able to recognize when things are getting out of hand and remove yourself from these situations while you can!!

[LAMetroGuy]

Sure, i'm paranoid.
http://www.presstelegram.com/ci_6439752?source=most_viewed

Sure it's only one incident. You've got that right!

And you did say you went to the movies every couple of weeks, that is not a missquote... what i didn't say is that you go everyday... to which I don't know unless you state it (I can't read minds) anyway, that is way off topic. One incident is just that... ONE... and that is a fact!

To say that the pike is gang infested is redicoulous, like LB Life07 said, some youths who are in urban drag will act up every now and then, does that make them gangsters??? I don't think so.

[LAMetroGuy]

:koko:

Not sure about this:

http://www.blsart.com/freedom/10.jpg
Photo Credit: Brett-Livingstone Strong (www.blsart.com)

http://www.blsart.com/freedom/11.jpg
Photo Credit: Brett-Livingstone Strong (www.blsart.com)

http://www.blsart.com/freedom/9.jpg
Photo Credit: Brett-Livingstone Strong (www.blsart.com)

[sopas ej]

Oops double post.

[sopas ej]

LAMetroGuy...are you serious when you say you've never seen anything close to what sopas ej describes?? With all due respect you're either just getting lucky with the times/days you go or you're blind to it.

About a week ago somebody got shot right across from the Pike in front of the convention center and yes it was due to gang violence. I've personally witnessed gang disputes go down during broad daylight right on Pine. Walking back from the movies i've seen guys throw bottles at other cars and threaten violence. It would be ignorant of me NOT to recognize this as related to gangs. I didn't give it the name of Gangworks but it in my eyes it sure does fit most of the time. Hell, talk to a local cop next time you see one and ask them about it. They're constantly checking tats/gang affiliations.

The fact is there just aren't a lot of what i'll call "classy" people strolling around downtown long beach on any given night, especially the weekends. Sure, they're not all gangsters but you certainly don't get a friendly feeling. That's why i talk about raising the bar. Don't get me wrong i love the diversity, but the diversity can also be classy and right now it's not.

I will concur with drisee, that regardless of whether my friend saw real cholos/gangbangers or just people that looked like them, the bottom line is, there's an unpleasant element that downtown Long Beach has yet to completely shake. Downtown LB has certainly improved a lot since the early 1990s; I'm an alum of CSULB class of '94 and downtown LB back then left plenty more to be desired. I think something needs to be done so that downtown Long Beach will also attract the locals of Long Beach who would otherwise shop in Lakewood or Cerritos or Orange County or hang out elsewhere. For many people in Los Angeles, Long Beach is considered out of the way. Yes, it'd be great to attract people from other parts of the metro area into Long Beach the way people go into Santa Monica, Pasadena, etc., but if even some Long Beach residents avoid downtown, then how can you expect others to sing Long Beach's praises? Don't get me wrong, when I was going to school in LB, I always thought Long Beach was one of the LA area's undiscovered secrets.

Regarding LB Life07's comment about seeing gangbanger types at the Santa Monica Pier, well, that's been going on for decades now. I learned in my teen-years that the Santa Monica Pier at night was the place to avoid, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's improved now. The Santa Monica Beach can also be full of those types.

[LAMetroGuy]

regardless of whether my friend saw real cholos/gangbangers or just people that looked like them, the bottom line is, there's an unpleasant element that downtown Long Beach has yet to completely shake.

That is one sad satement, I feel sorry for you. Ever heard of the Bill of Rights? So if someone just "looked like them" they should be banned from the Pike? WTF??? Enough of this, I'm over you and drisee generalizing based and profiling and complaining about living in an urban downtown yet complaining with urban grit. Move to Cerritos, ohh wait... there are Vietnamese gangs at the Cerritos Mall (or do they just look like them) maybe Montana would be best? :tup:

[LB Life07]

getting back on subject here!! The Statue of Freedom.......is this supposed to be something similar to the Statue of Liberty!! If so why would we put something like that up....it has no such meaning as the Statue of Liberty as in the fact that it was a gift from another country....I dont think we need something like this, I don't think that it will add anything to the city!!

[sopas ej]

That is one sad satement, I feel sorry for you. Ever heard of the Bill of Rights? So if someone just "looked like them" they should be banned from the Pike? WTF??? Enough of this, I'm over you and drisee generalizing based and profiling and complaining about living in an urban downtown yet complaining with urban grit. Move to Cerritos, ohh wait... there are Vietnamese gangs at the Cerritos Mall (or do they just look like them) maybe Montana would be best? :tup:

I don't know why you're getting your panties all up in a bunch. I never said anything about banning anyone from anywhere. Living in an urban environment doesn't and shouldn't necessarily mean having to put up with, in your words, urban grit, however you define that. And you're missing the point; not all Hispanics are cholos, nor do all Hispanics LOOK like cholos. But don't you see how if you see a bunch of people who look like cholos or gangbangers or whatever, that might put some people off? And if these people who look like that are just like everyone else, why don't you see people who look like that, in Belmont Shore?

[sopas ej]

getting back on subject here!! The Statue of Freedom.......is this supposed to be something similar to the Statue of Liberty!! If so why would we put something like that up....it has no such meaning as the Statue of Liberty as in the fact that it was a gift from another country....I dont think we need something like this, I don't think that it will add anything to the city!!

That statue is hideous.

[ChrisLA]

Wow this thread has gottne more activity in the last day than it has in months.


I'm with LAMetro on this, I lived in the area for 7 years, haven't had a problem. There are a lot of young people that dress in hip hop culture, and many whites just assume they are gang members. Personally I don't particular care for a lot of it, but hey its not my generation. I have a 15 year old nephew who has long hair, sometimes he wears an untamed afro sticking all over his head. I don't like it, and I tell it that all of the time, but thats his mom choice to let him wear it that way. Anyway he's not a gang member, and he's not out causing trouble. I talk to him all of the time about his appreance because I know people will judge him that way. I know he's a good kid with typical teenager tendencies. But I also let him know being a young black kid, people will not like you, and especially the police will make assumptions, and so will a lot of white people as well. Just like what is being said in this very thread.

From what I've seen down at the Pike are young kids hanging out, especially on the steps (I think thats what is was meant for, a meeting place) across from Cold Stone. Typically being teenagers, boys and girls playing the cat and mouse game and fliirting. Yes I've seen some a bit loud, and using profanity. Its not something that only minorities do, but many of todays teenagers. I personally don't care for this, but its not something I have control over (freedom of speech).

Now going down to Belmont Shore, I visit as well for dining and walking around. I've have seen the same thing happening, but yes with a mostly white crowd. Its usually the college students later in the evening after the dinner crowd are going home. They get drunk, use fowl language, and act rowdy at times. There's been a couple of times I didn't like what I see amoug these youngsters, and knew it was time to head home. So please don't say these things don't happen in other areas because they are well to do, and mostly white.

I watch the local channals all of time, and guess what? Lots of Belmont Shores residents complaining about the sometimes rowdy young people. I've seen where they blame a lot of it on certain establishments. I've also read in the Press Telegram several times about violence after the clubs close down in this area. Yet its not hyped up in the media, nor do you hear folks saying oh its gang related. Why because they assume that everyone white is not in a gang, and any incident with minorities its always gang related. Too much alcohol can can cause a lot of probelms, and that occurs in every district that has a lot of establishments of such. Hell I seen a bunch of rowdy folks on my trips to Amsterdam, and London, and guess what that were pissy drunk.

Again I'm not naive, I grew up in the hood (South Central & Watts), so I think I'm a bit more aware of who perhaps is involved in a gang, and those who perhaps are your typical kid from the hood. BTW even though I grew up in these areas, you would never know by how I dress or look. I could look like an easy target since I don't fit the look of someone from the hood, and yet as LAMetroGuy I haven't encounter any problems.

[drisee]

wow, this has gotten out of hand.

i'm going to try to keep this civilized as the last thing i want to see is for us to get all gangsta up in here :)

LAmetroguy. You're right that i shouldn't have said that you misquoted me. Sorry about that. I just wanted to make it clear that i along with going to the movies every couple weeks i'm also in the area almost every day, which i didn't mention the first time around.

Outside of that you have to admit that you're putting the spotlight on what you want push from this conversation and you're ignoring all the facts. I've mentioned plenty of times that for me i have personally witnessed more then one incident that was clearly gang related. But yet you keep claiming the only one incident thing making it look as if i'm totally blowing things out of proportion, which isn't fair of you to do. either is putting words in our mouths like saying that we want to ban people and racially profile the public.

From the beginning of this conversation Sopas EJ was just trying to say that in the past it's been somewhat of a turnoff to see a gangster looking element from time to time. i was agreeing with him to say i've witnessed it as well and i've also witnessed the violence to go along with it.

then it seems as if we were made to look like bad guys and to point out that drunk people are in every city that has entertainment so we should just chill out. of course this isn't about drunk people outside bars, obviously that happens in every city. just another example of where you guys are stretching things to fit your argument.

so just to clarify from my end, there are some shady looking people that hang out around the pike/downtown from time to time. I'm not saying they're all gangsters, but they're definitely not my cup of tea. The biggest point that Sopas EJ and i are trying to make (sorry to speak for you sopas) is that people gain an impression of downtown based upon what they see. Sure, the guy with the triple XXXL white t shirt, baggy pants off his ass, doo rag, tats and backwards hat might be an upstanding citizen, but in the court of popular opinion people are going to make a judgment about him. People have a bad impression of downtown long beach due to a part of the demographic that hangs out here. It's a fact guys. If you don't believe me you should poll some people that live in LA, OC or other parts of Long Beach. I've talked to people from belmont shore that are afraid to come down here because they think they'll get carjacked/mugged/robbed. Like i said i'm not making this shit up, do your own research.

That's why i try to espouse raising the bar. Bring some class back to the city. We fucked up with walmart and the pike but we can get it going in the right direction. Demand a better city that will hopefully attract better people so that in the end of day people will have a better impression then the one they have now.

Back to the business at hand...where did you get that crazy mockup from? i've heard of it and my first impression isn't a good one.

[lbguymetro]

wow...this is just my third post here and it becomes a relay of opinions...after all is said and done, we all actually just wish that long beach will prosper...long beach is a city full of diversity and as long as we put cops all over the place, gangs will have a hard time thriving in the area (that's why they're all over the place on weekends)...youths these days dress up differently and people should understand that preference....anyway, in my area in ocean blvd, people always go out and walk their dogs without worries...soon when the villa riviera is renovated, east ocean blvd will become more elegant....bad things may happen, but thats a very isolated incident that could happen in any good neighborhood...a lot of people i talk to , coz i work in LA, have always admired the transformation of long beach....its a place to relax! i have never heard of any gang-related comment from them citing downtown long beach..they would usually comment on north long beach...at least in pike , we could still see decent people roaming the place on weekends ..such scenario could also be seen in santa monica...pike is not that bad since its a family friendly area..but i do think that if you really wanna transform pike into an upscale area, the architecture must be torn down and changed into a more classy design!!! how i wish that that white building in front of the pike will soon be renovated into a classy structure so it can overshadow the flaws of the pike....on the other hand , however, i think you would agree with me that a big sore is the cityplace!!! no class and most bums are there magnetized by walmart...how can they advertise such place as a wonderful shopping district in the website when its nothing compared to other shopping places.....a big, big, big mistake....organizers or planners ,can you hear me ?

[LB Life07]

I know we say it over and over again but city place is a bad look!! I really think that the location could have been used in a wiser manner!! I mentioned earlier that I would've liked to have seen a macy's there!! I said this because when I think of this area I think of a location similar to that of Union Square in SF.. Union square is a great place in the center of downtown with a good mixture of retail ranging from independent to chains and it thrives because of it's great urban look and feel!! it's location is perfect because of the way it sits you have a great look of all the buildings around you!! City place should have been something to this effect!! and the pike should have been something along the lines of the grove!! I like the theatre and the borders. I think everything else should go, I can't wait for the laugh factory to open up!! that's supposed to be ready around the holliday season!! they are currently working on this!! if you go by there take a look inside and you might catch people working inside!! Also the laugh factory has a website that advertises the opening this holliday season!!

[lbguymetro]

i hope that the laugh factory would open soon.....i suggest that they should at least add more greeneries (flowers and plants ) and benches to the pike....what about a water fountain so kids could enjoy? these would be great additions...honestly, i dont know how they will ever change cityplace....seems like walmart is gonna be there forever...and the bad thing is , its close to the condos theyre building...and what about hometown buffet? i dont even wanna eat there....i have so much stress with my work already and at the end of the day, this is not the kind of milieu that i wanna be in...if there is one thing that i really wanna happen to downtown long beach, i wanna see a mall like macy's and an upscale one....i believe that this is all it takes for long beach to become a real place to work, play and live...come on, what makes torrance such a draw these days ? its the del amo fashion mall! its a trademark...its a sign that business is going on....i wanna see busy people walking on the streets not only on weekends but also weekdays! just as long as it is strategically planned so as not to transform long beach into an overcrowded place...anyway, i was in laguna beach the other day , and i was amazed with the upscale stores that they have.. i was asking myself , whats the most upscale store that we see in pine avenue ? z gallery ? on the other hand, i have a very nice idea...if only that white building along pine avenue could be renovated with some classy stores in it plus a great facade, it would be a great focal point for downtown long beach as it is near ocean boulevard and it is going downhill! plus the fact that it would somehow be the link between pike and pine ..I was hoping that that century old ad about edgewater condos will be finally torn down.....edgewater condos will draw more people into the area....just cant wait to start shopping in long beach so much so that i dont have to go to third st in santa monica anymore....

[LongBeachUrbanist]

Another mall is the last thing DTLB needs. Long Beach Plaza ruined Downtown.

Believe it or not, City Place (which replaced Long Beach Plaza) is a vast improvement. At least it is not one massive slab (even if the current tenants are somewhat ghetto). The Pike, on the other hand, is pretty horrible.

The city needs to focus on fixing the basics (like making the area more walkable) and not on building another mall.

[LongBeachUrbanist]

I will concur with drisee, that regardless of whether my friend saw real cholos/gangbangers or just people that looked like them, the bottom line is, there's an unpleasant element that downtown Long Beach has yet to completely shake.

'Unpleasant' is in the eye of the beholder.

Downtown Long Beach attracts lots of blue-collar blacks and Mexicans (and other immigrants). This reflects the fact that Downtown Long Beach is accessible to places where these people live. The Blue Line is a big part of this.

Pasadena and Santa Monica are fundamentally different: there are large wealthy populations nearby. Downtown Long Beach currently is surrounded by industry, as well as neighborhoods filled with artists and blue-collar families. It also has its share of homeless.

The demographics are changing, however slowly. As the high-rises go up, so will the area become more wealthy, and probably more white.

[sopas ej]

double post... oops (why does it keep doing that?)

[sopas ej]

wow, this has gotten out of hand...

...The biggest point that Sopas EJ and i are trying to make (sorry to speak for you sopas) is that people gain an impression of downtown based upon what they see...

No need to apologize. I'm glad you said what you did, because I am in full agreement. I like downtown Long Beach, it has some nice old architecture and some nice newer developments too. But surely most everyone agrees that it still has a way to go before it develops that certain cachet Old Town Pasadena and Third St. Promenade in Santa Monica have. I think downtown Long Beach has great potential for that.

And regarding the "unpleasantness" that one experiences in downtown Long Beach, it's not just the "gangster"-looking people, it's also other things, like homeless people, and just the behaviors of a certain demographic. I know that downtown Long Beach is surrounded by lower-income neighborhoods, which is fine, but many of you must have also observed that people from these neighborhoods can behave in an annoying or off-putting way. Example, I don't go to movie theaters where I know I'm going to be surrounded by people who talk at the screen during the movie, or people who bring their very young children or infants with them to an R-rated film and then allow their children to cry or make a lot of noise (hehe that's why I love going to the ArcLight Cinemas). So drisee I know what you mean when you say you don't see too many "classy" types walking around in downtown LB.

I think if more moderate and upper-income people move into downtown Long Beach and in adjacent areas, downtown Long Beach will become a more pleasant place to be. To me, "diverse population" also means diverse in the socio-economic sense.

[sopas ej]

Another mall is the last thing DTLB needs. Long Beach Plaza ruined Downtown.

Believe it or not, City Place (which replaced Long Beach Plaza) is a vast improvement. At least it is not one massive slab (even if the current tenants are somewhat ghetto). The Pike, on the other hand, is pretty horrible.

The city needs to focus on fixing the basics (like making the area more walkable) and not on building another mall.

Yes, Long Beach Plaza did indeed ruin downtown LB. And I agree that City Place is a much better replacement. I haven't really explored City Place, but I like that it extended the street grid of downtown, which Long Beach Plaza had walled off. I am disappointed with the tenants of City Place... again, not that I've walked around it, but I don't think a WalMart was a good choice, I imagine shopping carts being left on sidewalks and/or being stolen by homeless. Is that a problem there, I wonder?

'Unpleasant' is in the eye of the beholder.

Downtown Long Beach attracts lots of blue-collar blacks and Mexicans (and other immigrants). This reflects the fact that Downtown Long Beach is accessible to places where these people live. The Blue Line is a big part of this.

Pasadena and Santa Monica are fundamentally different: there are large wealthy populations nearby. Downtown Long Beach currently is surrounded by industry, as well as neighborhoods filled with artists and blue-collar families. It also has its share of homeless.

The demographics are changing, however slowly. As the high-rises go up, so will the area become more wealthy, and probably more white.

Yeah, I kinda already addressed this in my post to drisee. I think if more moderate and higher-income people move into downtown Long Beach and adjacent areas, it'll create a more pleasant environment.

[lbguymetro]

and when you see upper class moving towards the area, people will be more conscious of what they wear and how they act...

[drisee]

Another mall is the last thing DTLB needs. Long Beach Plaza ruined Downtown.

Believe it or not, City Place (which replaced Long Beach Plaza) is a vast improvement. At least it is not one massive slab (even if the current tenants are somewhat ghetto). The Pike, on the other hand, is pretty horrible.

The city needs to focus on fixing the basics (like making the area more walkable) and not on building another mall.

I wasn't living in the area during the long beach plaza days but i'll take your word for it. What i don't like about city place is that it disrupted the street grid. they had to curve 4th street, which i think is strange. that whole development has a slew of fundamental flaws. sucks to think that we'll be stuck with walmart for a long long time.

I love your comment about focusing on the basics, so happy to see someone else say that. they focus on all the big shit but if they would just focus on the small more organic improvements it would start slowly but surely sending the right message without having to wait forever for the big ticket items to come into play.

[ChrisLA]

4th Street doesn't curve, 5th does. Before City Place was built you couldn't even get through from Pine Avenue over to Long Beach Blvd because of the mall. The only option was through 6th, or 3rd Street.

Walmart actually wasn't welcomed and many of the local residents had a big concern about them coming in. But apparently they convince the locals this one would be different, but as we see its the same old Walmart. Many of the residents had perferred something like a Macy's and or Target instead. But when these types of retail aren't interested, all of the developer is interested in doing is filling those spaces, so we ended up with what we now have.

Also CityPlace was not built as a complex for attracting outsiders as was supposely The Pike. It was geared for the locals to shop, and thats its. I do like the how the apartments are set up along Pine Avenue, but it look like they are having some problems getting retail on the bottom floors. In some ways there isn't much they can do if the retail we want don't show any interest. Unfortunetly the developers are in this to make money, and do you think they really care who fills those empty spots?

[yibs]

I don't know why you're getting your panties all up in a bunch. I never said anything about banning anyone from anywhere. Living in an urban environment doesn't and shouldn't necessarily mean having to put up with, in your words, urban grit, however you define that. And you're missing the point; not all Hispanics are cholos, nor do all Hispanics LOOK like cholos. But don't you see how if you see a bunch of people who look like cholos or gangbangers or whatever, that might put some people off? And if these people who look like that are just like everyone else, why don't you see people who look like that, in Belmont Shore?

In belmont you get the drunk college crowd. In downtown where i live closer too, you get more of the gangbanger/crazy homeless type. Sometimes people forget there's a mental institution in the middle of downtown. And there allowed to come and go as they please. If i had to pick, i would take the drunk college crowd. The pike is what it is. I sometimes see the wannabe thugs walking around with there overly big pants down at there knees. Talking in jibberish that i sure can't understand. And sometimes i see nicer people walking around. I have never really been anywhere in downtown when i didn't see a few homeless people or more depending on if you go more west. The amount of empty store shops is just crazy. Nobody can afford the rent. There are shops that left pine ave for 2nd st in belmont. More foot traffic and higher class consumers are on 2nd st. Long Beach is not going to be Santa Monica, and will never be like Laguna. I think having a beautiful beach would do alot to bring in more high class retail. Higher class people are needed here to make it great, but what would attract a more wealthy person to live here? If your wealthy, you probably live somewhere nicer with awesome retail and a beautiful beach.

[lbguymetro]

im not sure if long beach will ever be like santa monica and laguna but its something that you can definitely flaunt at this time because it has great attractions as well...it wont be like santa monica and laguna but it has its own identity..and class...!!!..dont forget queen mary, aquarium of the pacific, the rainbow harbor...people do get surprised how beautiful long beach is and i think that it looks fantastic at night...the only missing element maybe the retail but it does not mean that long beach cant compete with other beaches....long beach has a bigger downtown and has blue line...and of course long beach is way, way more famous than other beaches and has its own convention center which other beaches dont have! what about the historical villa riviera and the wide stretch of ocean boulevard? visitors who dont think of retails will definitely see long beach as one of the best attractions in LA county because we have world class displays...and if in case upscale retail does not happen in long beach, so what ? thats why its long beach and that makes it unique..the diversity !!! its way nice at this time and although its hard, ill just have to rest my case then and love long beach the way it is now...but i guess a lot of things is in store for long beach and im very optimistic about its future! thats why i started to live here....

[yibs]

im not sure if long beach will ever be like santa monica and laguna but its something that you can definitely flaunt at this time because it has great attractions as well...it wont be like santa monica and laguna but it has its own identity..and class...!!!..dont forget queen mary, aquarium of the pacific, the rainbow harbor...people do get surprised how beautiful long beach is and i think that it looks fantastic at night...the only missing element maybe the retail but it does not mean that long beach cant compete with other beaches....long beach has a bigger downtown and has blue line...and of course long beach is way, way more famous than other beaches and has its own convention center which other beaches dont have! what about the historical villa riviera and the wide stretch of ocean boulevard? visitors who dont think of retails will definitely see long beach as one of the best attractions in LA county because we have world class displays...and if in case upscale retail does not happen in long beach, so what ? thats why its long beach and that makes it unique..the diversity !!! its way nice at this time and although its hard, ill just have to rest my case then and love long beach the way it is now...but i guess a lot of things is in store for long beach and im very optimistic about its future! thats why i started to live here....

I'm a member of the aquarium. It's nice at times. I would not call it world class. I think the catch a wave thing is a joke. Our beach can't really compare. We don't have waves. I have to see the bulldozers cleaning up the trash that washes up every few days. I sadly will not get in the water here, and i believe that is the majority point of view in the city. Oil islands are never a nice thing to see when you think about the ocean. The villa is great but that's not going to make somebody move here. There are still plenty of condo units for sale in buildings that already exist. We don't need more condos that nobody is going to buy. The queen mary is somewhat lame. I have been on the ship many times, but how many times can you do that? The ship needs a makeover too. I think there are beautiful aspects to the city, but that doesn't blind me from the bad. I don't think little mistakes happened. If you call the over 500 million spent on cityplace and the pike little then i don't know what to say. I have a book that shows long beach in its prime days. Long beach was famous at one time. At one time it was one of the most famous beaches in the nation. And having a bigger downtown and has nothing to do with how a beach is rated. San Diego has a beautiful downtown. And could you tell me about these world class displays here in long beach. The lbc will always be a little ghetto, and some happen to like it that way including my sister. But we still like it here, But it has many many years to go. The pike and cityplace set this city back so far, and it's a real shame. Same with the breakwater and 2 major rivers dumping trash right on our doorstep.

[yibs]

Also what visitor isn't going to care about nice retail? And you said if we don't get high end retail that is ok because we have diversity? Diversity in what? That is why we need some high end retail in downtown, because we don't have any. I could also think of a few beaches more famous than ours. Start with Huntington beach is world famous from surf competitions, bikini contests which my sister was in. lol

How about malibu and zuma? A beach and a downtown are different. Long Beach is one of the few unique places that has a downtown somewhat on the water, but really our downtown is not on the water. The convention center is cool, but that again is going going to make people spend money and buy a place. The tagger who shot and killed that kid on pine last year was just convicted. Violence is down from where it was in the early 90's around here, but it is still a big problem. A group of women were robbed a few months ago right below the aqua on seaside way. I don't like walking there at night, because it's dark, and easy for someone to hide and do something. They should put some police down there. All in all this debate could go forever.

[lbguymetro]

its your personal opinion and of course, this argument can go on forever...i do believe that downtown long beach has its flaws but im counting on the good stuff that i find nice in this place....i lived in LA for 3 years but found long beach to be a better choice than downtown LA...as what ive said, any guest ive had appreciates what long beach has to offer..maybe we are expecting too much because we live here...and cant see the positive details...cityplace is a disaster ...but i do really enjoy jogging on the shoreline...and take the bike path in the afternoon just minutes from my building...disneyland is a world class destination but i didnt go back after ive been there so is queen mary...long beach attractions are for tourists...crimes can happen anywhere even in the most upscale neighborhood...condos abound in this city but hey san diego has its problem about housing too...! well, maybe , being in ocean boulevard made me feel different as to how i see long beach...in the next posts, i hope that ill correspond to other people here who loves long beach overall the way it is now though they have some constructive criticisms to say.....it would be futile for me to respond further with comments from someone who have an overall negative perception towards this city ...thus the argument can go on forever...

[SantaCruzGuy]

I agree with you LB. I just moved down to Long Beach from Santa Cruz, CA "Surf City". Santa Cruz is a city full of middle class and upper-class citizens (I am only stating this to prove a point). In Santa Cruz we attracted tourists from the bay area, and those who pass through the city by PCH. SC is full of upper class rich folks, and the city overall opposed "high-end retail". SC is full of stores and attractions that are locally-owned, and often unique to only SC. That is what attracted all the tourists who came to visit. When I was looking for a home someone in this forum told me to take a look at Long Beach. I fell in love with Long Beach as soon as i saw its attractions. I did a lot of research, and not to put down all the cities you stated yibs, but LB is the 5th largest city in CA, and it must be for a reason. I am a little luckier than some when it comes to money... and not all rich people (like myself) enjoy high end stores. LB is waaaay more unique than those OC stores and buildings built in 3 months that you can find anywhere in the USA. The Queen Mary might be old, and downtown a little dirty, but who cares. We atleast have a unique city that is bigger and much more urban. Our water might not be clean, but at least we can say we have a beach. If LB was horrible...then why would people like me move here? (again I'm not bragging that I have $$, but I am proving my point). Laguna and Huntington Beach, etc. might be nice, but I must say it is pretty fake. I can find all those stores in Santa Barbara or Beverly Hills. Been there done that. Eh. <yawns> Hey...Have you been to SF? That city is very dirty and full of homeless people, but it is still a good city and must have waaaaaay more tourism than the OC combined. I bet they have atleast ten times more tourists than Laguna Beach... What does Laguna Beach have? A fake Mtv show that was cancelled! Do not put down a city. If you do not like it...move and stay quiet. I love it, and we do not need haters to talk-down a great city. Move to the OC or Santa Monica and be happy. I am happy here, and others are too. We love LB and we are proud to call it home. :cheers:

[ChrisLA]

Certainly there are things that needs improvments in and around downtown Long Beach. But all of this negative talk I'm seeing here is a bit much and exaggerated. I think its more of an issue with the dark and the brown people living here. Its spoken about in a code like manner as if people at too dumb to read between the lines. It seems as if everyone who wear their pants in a baggy fashion is a gang member. If I had as many complaints as some have expressed here, I would move. Personally I wouldn't get tired of hearing myself complain and take action and move away. If I don't feel safe, and the people are too ghetto and more than I can handle. Well it wouldn't take long for me to put my place up for sale and get out.

[ChrisLA]

Oh look how ugly Long Beach is.


http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1009/1042647600_e6846a1cac_o.jpg


http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1353/1042728724_766d9e1de7_o.jpg


http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1038/1042728676_ea2d5ec37c_o.jpg

And this is my place, and it may not be as posh as some of you guys places on Ocean Avenue. But it is the so called ghetto and unsafe West Gateway. Nope it's not as bad as a some of you claim it is. Yes we do have white professional people in this area, more than you know. I lived here for 7 years without any incidents I can think of. Oh just so you know I'm a minority one who grew up in south central LA, and Watts. Guess what, I've never been in a gang, nor have I ever been to jail. Never shot anyone, and I've have never been shot at. I guess I need to move away so the upscale folks can come in so everyone can feel safe.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1003/1095840750_0c18f2a4a2_b.jpg

[yibs]

To whoever thinks that my comments are based on peoples color. You should be a shamed. I am asian/latin. Is that not brown enough for you? That is just stupid. My comments never said anything about somebodies color or race. I'm sorry that you had to be the one who brought up race when nobody else did. I live right on the sand here, and i like where i am, but like i said before that doesn't make me think everything is great. Us that have lived here for many years see the city for what it is, and not for what the city run website says. which would lead someone to think that long beach is some hip happening paradise. Disneyland is not a long beach attraction. that belongs to orange county. And the queen mary is a big boat that i look at everyday all day and night from my place. Yes we are unique in this city. Some of them are good and some are bad. I never liked how you only go a few streets inland and it turns into gangbanger central. that is unique for long beach. All of the little projects that surround these big high rises are full of drugs, hookers and violence. The cops just raided a project on 6th and linden. The whole place was being run by east side longos. I want this city to be great, but the city council needs a reality check that everything is not all well in long beach. And what's is the point of saying long beach is the 5th largest city in california? I have know that for along time. You do realize that about 70-80% of this city is below the poverty line? that means making less than 10,000 a year. Something is very wrong with that. I understand the points being made here and i agree with some, but i have lived in this town too long to be swayed by peoples comments or what the lying city council says. I also don't want this to turn into the oc, but if all those other beaches in the south bay can clean up redondo, manhatten, torrance. hermosa which all used to be terrible places, but now are awesome. And to whoever said who cares if we can't get into the water. um i care, and so do many others in the city. So how can we be a great city if we can't even use our greatest asset the ocean. I find me and my friends going down to seal beach to play in the water, and it saddens me because i should be able to walk outside my building onto a beautiful clean beach and sadly i can't. And those pics are great, but what does that prove?

[yibs]

I can see my balcony in the 2nd to last pic.

[lbguymetro]

thus, the argument goes forever...and i dont wanna start using words like "stupid" here...this is an educated forum...there's a fine line between between constructive and destructive criticism...this is a forum for people optimistic about long beach...lets leave the crab mentality behind...again, the argument can go on forever for whatever attention-seeking reasons...all i wanna do is leave long beach and go somewhere else if i'm not satisfied....rather than sound miserable in this forum..its infectious....!

[yibs]

Chris your comments about white people live here, and i don't shoot people are just too funny. I don't think anyone has made comments about you to justify your comments. Your the one throwing around race in this conversation. So the white guy as you call yourself is here to tell us how to deal with other races. Nobody said you shoot people. Nobody said anything directed at you in a mean way. Don't try so hard to get people to think like you. Wow 7 years you have lived here. So you weren't here when the violence was really out of control. But you know more about this town then anyone else. I don't know why you get so angry in your posts at people who don't agree with you. We all have love for our long beach, but i don't know many people who defend it like you. Even people who have lived here for decades don't come with such a positive outlook on things. I'm glad your happy being here, but don't get all hot headed with racial comments towards people who from your words are not brown enough. That is just funny. And also if you look like a gangbanger than why is it wrong for me to assume that you are one? If somebody looks like a cop is it wrong for me to think he might be a cop? I guess it's a style of dress, but other gangsters look for other people that look like gangsters. or am i wrong on that one? Take it easy chris and lower the racial tone.

[yibs]

I didn't call anyone stupid, but i did call someones comments stupid. Because they were stupid to bring up. Talk about bringing up something that has nothing to do with the subject on hand. I don't need someone who doesn't know me to start asserting that i am a racist. I always thought being what i call a half breed made me very tolerant to other nationalities. Being called names and such through out my childhood has helped me be more tolerant, because i know the pain that some words can cause, and i for one don't want to do that to others as it was done to me.

[drisee]

I live right on the sand here, and i like where i am, but like i said before that doesn't make me think everything is great. Us that have lived here for many years see the city for what it is, and not for what the city run website says. which would lead someone to think that long beach is some hip happening paradise.

Yibs, i love what you have to say and i really hope the others that are taking up this discussion such as Chris, lbguy and santa cruz will really see that point. it's the same point that i have. Your review of long beach is right on.

And that is to say that we like living here. No, we don't want to move to the OC or inland or another state, country or planet. Perhaps the most important point to make is that we see the potential here, but it has not been reached yet. Local government does try to mask the city with positive PR but we should all demand more from this city that has so much great potential. You all seem to be saying that in not so many words. You all say i like it as is, with any issues that it may have. that's great but we should still demand more from local government and stop drinking the koolaid.

as for me i dig the city like i said. i've invested here and even though i might not be in love with everything and i do get negative, i'm willing to play my part, get involved and build a better city. I seek a more livable city. I would love for it to make more simple moves that don't involve new condos and high end retail. just give me a more pleasant walking experience, give me some more bike paths and better mobility options, keep it clean yet funky and more people will take a liking. the result of that will be more tourists, more investment from developers, better retail (unique i hope :)) and all the other elements needed to move this city forward.
:notacrook:

[ChrisLA]

First of all just to clairy something I'm a black man who to some looks white, and or Latino (see my avatar) Believe me I've heard it all, from those who didn't know what I was, came out of the blue and made racist comments. 99% of the time it was about African Americans. I'm also more in tune with lot of subtle
or underhanded racist comments. I didn't call any particular person a racist, but I've read several comments to know who was being spoken of.

If you're not a racist thats fine. If you' are, well thats fine too. I don't have any hatred for any of you. I brought up race because of the underhanded comments. I the type of person who not beat around the bush, and say lets bring it to the surface. BTW anyone can be a racist, and because a person feel they are a part of that race, the can still have negative views about the very makeup they are. So in my book it doesn't mean a lot when I hear that.

To tell you the truth I havne't defended Long Beach as much as some forumers. There is no denying we have problems that need to be fix. I just don't think they're as bad as some make it out to be. I also agreed with LAMetroGuy that I haven't had a problem when I been down at the Pike, nor have I dealt with anything on Pine Avenue. Although Pine Avenue is a bit more classy, and it attracts a older 20 something crowd, where as the Pike bring in a lot more teenagers.


Anyway I''m done with this, lets move on to and put more focus on the postive things we have in Long Beach. If fine to be disappointed with how some things are going in the city, but the continue harping on it can be a downer for all who hears it. As I said to anyone who doesn't like living here, stop complaining and do something about it and move. Let the others around here thing about the future, and look for a better tomorrow.

Oh BTW I said I lived in downtown Long Beach for 7 years. But I've lived in another part of the city (Bixby Knolls) for a number of years as well. I also would visit downtown LB a lot even when I didn't live in this neighborhood. Now I love Bixby Knolls, but still I rather live down here where all the action is, and also next to this beautiful body of water nearby. Also Long Beach will never have the cleanest water as long as there is a breakwater in place to keep the water from circulating like Seal Beach, or some of the other local beaches. Yet its not the worst beaches when it comes to dirty water.

The other thing I like to mention is the poverty level isn't no where as high as was pointed out. The last I heard it was above the national average, but only slighty.

As much as we don't agree on things here, I still have no hatred for any of you. Its actually nice to see we have a group of people who care (at least I hope they do) about our city. We should do a meet one day, and bring the boxing gloves (lol). LAMetroGuy and I have met before when a group of LA Forumers came downtown LB and did a walking/photo tour.

[lbguymetro]

im just reacting to a post which sounded like everything in long beach is not good from queen mary to the waters to the convention center,etc..where is the contentment ? anyway, i did not say that disneyland is an attraction in long beach...i was using an analogy to a certain point...the fact that me and other forum people have reacted basically means that the manner in which criticisms were raised were somewhat offending to some long beach lovers..lets move on and just discuss opinions constructively...anyway, lets not forget discussing the good sides of long beach from time to time....

[LB Life07]

Yibs I just wanted to make a comment on what you were saying about projects on 6th and linden!! I've never seen projects there.......or anywhere in the downtown area to be exact!! For anyone whose seen projects they would know these buildings are not!! Projects or rather track homes!! are usually big block units very similar in look and a lot of times have a big number or letter on the building indicating the building. for example those found in watts....Jordan Downs, Nickerson Gardens, north long beach has the Carmelitas......Not to take any sides here but I think it's these comments that are starting to upset people!! a comment like this can seem a little frustrating to those of us who have lived in these areas or still may live in these areas your referring to!! Not every person who lives in a lower class neighborhood or building in these areas want to be classified as being considered amongst the scum......I lived in a building on 6th and linden a few years back!! I never lived in the projects and just because there might be a few bad influences in the area and a few shady people still doesn't make it a project building!!! I think people on this forum just need to be aware of the fact that we all live in this city and some of us live in nice areas and bad areas of the city!! We know the bad areas need improvement and that people are gonna make judgement about the areas, I just ask that people refrain from making misinformed judgements.......like calling an apartment building a project building!!! what you have here are some apartment buildings with a large number of tenants who may happen to live on or below the poverty line!!! Some are probably good tenants and some are probably not!! this is not to pick a beef with yibs, just trying to make a point on a comment I feel was made with out understanding!!!

[LB Life07]

Public housing or project homes are forms of housing tenure in which the property is owned by a government authority, which may be central or local. Social housing is an umbrella term referring to rental housing which may be owned and managed by the state, by not-for-profit organizations, or by a combination of the two, usually with the aim of providing affordable housing.

Although the common goal of public housing is to provide affordable housing, the details, terminology, definitions of poverty and other criteria for allocation vary.

[yibs]

Yibs I just wanted to make a comment on what you were saying about projects on 6th and linden!! I've never seen projects there.......or anywhere in the downtown area to be exact!! For anyone whose seen projects they would know these buildings are not!! Projects or rather track homes!! are usually big block units very similar in look and a lot of times have a big number or letter on the building indicating the building. for example those found in watts....Jordan Downs, Nickerson Gardens, north long beach has the Carmelitas......Not to take any sides here but I think it's these comments that are starting to upset people!! a comment like this can seem a little frustrating to those of us who have lived in these areas or still may live in these areas your referring to!! Not every person who lives in a lower class neighborhood or building in these areas want to be classified as being considered amongst the scum......I lived in a building on 6th and linden a few years back!! I never lived in the projects and just because there might be a few bad influences in the area and a few shady people still doesn't make it a project building!!! I think people on this forum just need to be aware of the fact that we all live in this city and some of us live in nice areas and bad areas of the city!! We know the bad areas need improvement and that people are gonna make judgement about the areas, I just ask that people refrain from making misinformed judgements.......like calling an apartment building a project building!!! what you have here are some apartment buildings with a large number of tenants who may happen to live on or below the poverty line!!! Some are probably good tenants and some are probably not!! this is not to pick a beef with yibs, just trying to make a point on a comment I feel was made with out understanding!!!

May i ask who i called scum? I have friends who live in these parts of town. I never said everyone in a certain area are all scum. I'm sorry if that's your perception which i am not responsible for. I'm not here to fight or cause problems. But when you see buildings with tagging all over it and people hanging out front looking like there trying to sell crack, what should i call it? If you have a more PC term than all use that. Some of these buildings are controlled by lets say people i would not let in my home. My cousin is a cop here in downtown. Some of these buildings are straight up controlled by bangers, and it makes life suck for those who are good and honest people living there. My issue with people under the poverty line is more with the city, but there are plenty of city and state run programs for people to use if there serious about lifting themselves out of poverty. Some people don't want to lift themselves out. They just want handouts. I use to give this homeless guy a dollar everyday, but stopped when he kept using the money for alcohol and cigs instead of food or trying to get help. But you guys are right this is not what this thread is about. I want to better our city too. I don't criticize the queen mary, convention center or our beaches for fun. The convention center is cool, i never bashed it. All i said is the convention center is not going to make somebody spend money to live here. Almost everyone who likes to party that lives in my building goes down to belmont, and all they say is downtown is too sketchy, somewhat boring and not pedestrian friendly like 2nd street. And that is just fact, but there is lots of potential for downtown long beach. but they have been saying that for 15 years. People are getting tired of waiting. And when it comes to our beach, i actually like the fact that not many people come here. The problem is the reason they don't come here. Which ranges from insanely dirty water, no waves. lots of trash everywhere on the sand and in the water. Some of the people walking around don't have a welcoming vibe. I jog with my sister everyday on the path, and for the most part don't have any problems. Well it sometimes gets hard to jog from the air out here, And i get this black dust that lands on my balcony from the activity from the port.

[yibs]

double post sorry

[yibs]

Oh and chris i am sorry for my comments. I thought you said in your post that you were white. I never even looked at your pic. So my apology to you.


:)

[LB Life07]

yibs in no way did I ever say you called anyone scum......I was simply saying that everyone on the thread should watch the way they word things!! sometimes the comments tend to generalize things too much. You tend to make a lot of comments about certain areas being all gang banged out and controlled and run by gangs.....for some of the people who live in these areas that may not be there perception. I've lived in these areas, have you?? It's one thing to pass through and make an assumption based on what you see and it's one thing to actually live there and know what's going on.....bottom line yes there is gangs here and druggies and all sorts of other nasty and annoying things that come with living in a big city!! There are also a lot of nice working class people there too and I refuse to let a person say that these areas are nothing more than gang bangers and killing central, when I have walked down these neighborhoods plenty of times and have never been harrassed except by the occasional homeless that may ask for money....my problem with you was the comment about projects.....that's not what exists over there and if you've ever been to projects you would automatically see the difference. There is no need to become defensive, I just like to see things told in a way they truly are.......apartments are apartments, projects are projects....single family homes are single family homes.......it's just that simple, would you call a single family home something different if it's located in a bad area????

[yibs]

yibs in no way did I ever say you called anyone scum......I was simply saying that everyone on the thread should watch the way they word things!! sometimes the comments tend to generalize things too much. You tend to make a lot of comments about certain areas being all gang banged out and controlled and run by gangs.....for some of the people who live in these areas that may not be there perception. I've lived in these areas, have you?? It's one thing to pass through and make an assumption based on what you see and it's one thing to actually live there and know what's going on.....bottom line yes there is gangs here and druggies and all sorts of other nasty and annoying things that come with living in a big city!! There are also a lot of nice working class people there too and I refuse to let a person say that these areas are nothing more than gang bangers and killing central, when I have walked down these neighborhoods plenty of times and have never been harrassed except by the occasional homeless that may ask for money....my problem with you was the comment about projects.....that's not what exists over there and if you've ever been to projects you would automatically see the difference. There is no need to become defensive, I just like to see things told in a way they truly are.......apartments are apartments, projects are projects....single family homes are single family homes.......it's just that simple, would you call a single family home something different if it's located in a bad area????

I don't differ my opinion on what area it's in. I do know for a fact that many buildings around here are infested with drugs and bangers. That is not a opinion, that is sadly what i see. And not when driving by. When police have to go to the same building over and over and over again for the same problems. then clearly it is not a great place. I feel bad for those who have to live around people selling drugs and just acting stupid. You could say it's generalizing, but sadly these problems are so rampant in this city that it sometimes is hard to not generalize in some ways. When it comes down to would i call a single family home something different based on location. I say no, i would base my comments on what is happening around that home. Are there gangs and drugs coming from that home, is there violence. That is what i base my opinion on. Not what color a person is or how much money they have, or what area the place is in. But the state of things around here are weird. They just arrested a grandmother on long beach blvd selling heroin with her 5 year old grand daughter. I was asked if i wanted to buy crack outside the pacific building where i live. I think this stuff is getting as close as i can bare. But look i am sorry if i offended you or anyone else. And like i said i have friends who live in some of these little buildings here in downtown, i got friends at 7th and linden, and the stories they tell of things going on at night are just insane, and i would not feel safe or have any real quality of life living there. Some of these streets need to be taken back by the good honest residents of this city. Gangs have a strong grip on certain areas in this town. The waterfront here in downtown and east long beach are mostly safe, but things still happen. But the west side and north long beach are places i wont go. I just don't feel like taking a chance in those parts of town. Call me what you will on that one, but i see it as me being safe. But that doesn't mean that i think everyone who lives there is bad, I just think the area is bad.

[LB Life07]

I can accept that!! aside from all that.....I was wondering if anyone knows what's going on with the 150 west ocean site!! Last I heard they were trying to get approval on some changes they had made to the lobby area of the building, the issue was supposed to be up for review on the 8th I believe.....has anyone heard any further news on this!!

[SantaCruzGuy]

...So I hear tons of talk about a promenade downtown...what is that about? Any renderings or say about what will be built within the location? I was walking downtown earlier today, and I see that if built (one building and its retail will link to city place. Also, I do remember talk about trolleys and/or rail linking the east to the west of LB...any news about that?

[drisee]

I can accept that!! aside from all that.....I was wondering if anyone knows what's going on with the 150 west ocean site!! Last I heard they were trying to get approval on some changes they had made to the lobby area of the building, the issue was supposed to be up for review on the 8th I believe.....has anyone heard any further news on this!!

this is the oceanaire project. i have some info to share. pretty sure they should be submitting for plan check soon, either this month or perhaps september. they did ask for approval on some lobby changes and also on the balconies, there was a certain section that was concrete and they asked for glass.

i've been looking forward to this one too, hope to see it break ground soon. i just hope the colors aren't the same old lame colors the city seems to force on everything. enough with the art deco palette.

...So I hear tons of talk about a promenade downtown...what is that about? Any renderings or say about what will be built within the location? I was walking downtown earlier today, and I see that if built (one building and its retail will link to city place. Also, I do remember talk about trolleys and/or rail linking the east to the west of LB...any news about that?

as for the promenade, there are a few projects happening. i personally don't like any of them although i know some of the people on this site own them. no offense, just personal preference. just nothing to get excited about and i was hoping to see something more progressive that uses some more interesting materials.

as for rail, the streetcar feasability study was approved by the council but i haven't heard anything more about it since then.

[sopas ej]

I agree with you LB. I just moved down to Long Beach from Santa Cruz, CA "Surf City". Santa Cruz is a city full of middle class and upper-class citizens (I am only stating this to prove a point). In Santa Cruz we attracted tourists from the bay area, and those who pass through the city by PCH. SC is full of upper class rich folks, and the city overall opposed "high-end retail". SC is full of stores and attractions that are locally-owned, and often unique to only SC. That is what attracted all the tourists who came to visit. When I was looking for a home someone in this forum told me to take a look at Long Beach. I fell in love with Long Beach as soon as i saw its attractions. I did a lot of research, and not to put down all the cities you stated yibs, but LB is the 5th largest city in CA, and it must be for a reason. I am a little luckier than some when it comes to money... and not all rich people (like myself) enjoy high end stores. LB is waaaay more unique than those OC stores and buildings built in 3 months that you can find anywhere in the USA. The Queen Mary might be old, and downtown a little dirty, but who cares. We atleast have a unique city that is bigger and much more urban. Our water might not be clean, but at least we can say we have a beach. If LB was horrible...then why would people like me move here? (again I'm not bragging that I have $$, but I am proving my point). Laguna and Huntington Beach, etc. might be nice, but I must say it is pretty fake. I can find all those stores in Santa Barbara or Beverly Hills. Been there done that. Eh. <yawns> Hey...Have you been to SF? That city is very dirty and full of homeless people, but it is still a good city and must have waaaaaay more tourism than the OC combined. I bet they have atleast ten times more tourists than Laguna Beach... What does Laguna Beach have? A fake Mtv show that was cancelled! Do not put down a city. If you do not like it...move and stay quiet. I love it, and we do not need haters to talk-down a great city. Move to the OC or Santa Monica and be happy. I am happy here, and others are too. We love LB and we are proud to call it home. :cheers:

Hello, not that I'm knocking Santa Cruz, I think it's a nice little town, but as I recall, at least when I was there in the late 90s, isn't there a bad neighborhood near the boardwalk? I remember it because it kind of shocked me, I didn't think a neighborhood like that would exist in Santa Cruz. It looked gang-ridden.

[LAMetroGuy]

Save the Queen wins Queen Mary auction
By Wendy Thomas Russell, Staff writer
Long Beach Press Telegram
Article Launched:08/14/2007 02:13:58 PM PDT

LOS ANGELES - Save the Queen emerged Tuesday as the winner of an auction to take over the lease to run the Queen Mary and potentially develop its surrounding land.

At a bankruptcy proceeding in a U.S. Bankruptcy Court, the group fronted by developer Jeffrey Klein offered $43 million to buy the lease formerly held by Queen's Seaport Development Inc., which had leased the city-owned ship for 14 years.

Save the Queen also includes Hix Rubenstein, a developer of high-end golf resorts, and is backed by major investment groups - iStar, Babcock & Brown and Garrison Investments.

Save the Queen, previously backed by the Carlyle Group, tried to bypass the auction last month by negotiating a $49 million sale of the lease with city officials. The deal later collapsed, and Carlyle withdrew its support.

O&S Holdings, which placed the opening, $41 million bid several months ago, walked away from the bidding Tuesday. Company officials disagreed with the judge's decision to allow Save the Queen to be a qualified bidder based on a missed deadline to remove contingencies from its offer last week.

Klein said he had "no idea" O&S was going to walk away from the auction.

"I expected much more active bidding," he said. "I am kind of surprised."

With the win on Tuesday, Save the Queen will take over for QSDI, which filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in March 2005 after a years-long rent dispute with the city of Long Beach, which owns the historic ocean liner and roughly 50 acres of surrounding land.

[drisee]

thanks LAmetroguy. I forgot that was happening today.

I'm happy to hear that O&S didn't win the bid as their background scared me. Pretty sure they were the ones with nothing but large shopping mall type projects on their resume.

This other group sounds more dynamic. Does anyone have the inside scoop on them. I'm sure this will start a long debate inside the city about what will be best for that land.

[SantaCruzGuy]

Yeah. Locals call the neighborhood "the beach flat".

[yibs]

What do guys think about a story in the local business journal that city workers are getting massive raises while at the same time the mayor is saying the city is broke and needs to cut back on services. This is another problem i see with this city. there excuse is we have not had a raise in a few years. well lots of people don't get raises so why should they? This is a council that never delivers anything except more taxes on the people who live here. Long Beach has the highest population of people living below the poverty line than any other city in the state. We also have the lowest amount of home owners in the state. And sadly the worst retail income from a major city in the whole state. So with these issues the city thinks another 200+ of there workers deserve to make over 100,000 a year. Who wants to support this move by the council? And i heard that the west ocean towers might let people move into one of the towers in oct, and the second tower sometime next summer. This is taking along time. The people trying to do edgewater said maybe they will break ground in 1-2 years. No wonder so many firms turned down building in long beach, as one put it, dealing with the city council and mayor of long beach is like being back in high school. If the city doesn't get its act together none of these coming soon projects will become reality. I also heard that the cityplace lofts looking over the beautiful albertsons parking lot is done, and has a whopping 20% occupancy. I would not live there, unless you don't mind a few sober living homes right across from you, and grocery store loading docks are cool. That place was a huge mistake. Too many mistakes are happening, and sadly these things are too stay. I sent an email to the city council asking if they ever plan to scrap the walmart, and the response i got was the walmart has helped revitalize downtown. And you guys wonder why i think the council is a joke, the problem is there a joke that has the power to fuck things up. I don't shop at walmart. do any of you? I would never support such an evil corporation, and i also don't want to support a store that i wish was not here.

[lbguymetro]

yes, walmart is a big big crap...a huge mistake ! my friend got disappointed when he saw that its there..trader joes would have been better or target! have u seen the type of people who goes there? and the crazy thing is, cityplace is being proudly advertised as a shopping area in the downtown long beach associates website...its super cheap! you cant find decent people roaming in that area...yeah , i wouldnt live in that cityplace loft..i toured their units one time and i was not even impressed with the designs
despite the pricey values of units...there's a lot of units available along ocean blvd..why should one settle in the cityplace ? though some units could be resale homes in ocean blvd., still the area is great...

[InsExchLoft_dweller]

Acutally Yibs, if you go into the units by albertson's you will find that they are quite nice. The shame is that we are not helping those potential units by surrounding then with low level retail... after all, who wants a view of Hometown buffet.

[InsExchLoft_dweller]

Many of you sounds pissed about downtown longbeach. You should come to the meeting that is scheduled at the Temple Lofts @ 1p on Sunday. Rather than bitch on a thread, why don't you voice your concerns.

[lbguymetro]

i think that that is actually right...come to the meeting....ive noticed that some comments here reflect too much dissatisfaction...its infectious...! im sorry but reading some people's comments here sounds like they have a lot of frustrations with long beach and theyve been examining every aspect microscopically..i said microscopically 100 million times! ...and i cant believe that theyre so negative with long beach's tourist attractions such as queen mary, aquarium of the pacific and the convention center..someone even commented that the convention center wont attract people to bring their money to long beach...that is way too ridiculous! the convention center attracts tourists from all over america and hotels benefit from it as well as the other attractions in long beach......can you see those executives crossing the street after the convention seminars...? my point is , the last thing we need would be people who would antagonize every positive effort to better long beach, people who will be very hard to satisfy! and the worst thing is they do exist!

[yibs]

i think that that is actually right...come to the meeting....ive noticed that some comments here reflect too much dissatisfaction...its infectious...! im sorry but reading some people's comments here sounds like they have a lot of frustrations with long beach and theyve been examining every aspect microscopically..i said microscopically 100 million times! ...and i cant believe that theyre so negative with long beach's tourist attractions such as queen mary, aquarium of the pacific and the convention center..someone even commented that the convention center wont attract people to bring their money to long beach...that is way too ridiculous! the convention center attracts tourists from all over america and hotels benefit from it as well as the other attractions in long beach......can you see those executives crossing the street after the convention seminars...? my point is , the last thing we need would be people who would antagonize every positive effort to better long beach, people who will be very hard to satisfy! and the worst thing is they do exist!

You like to distort what others say. I said people are not going to buy a home in long beach because a convention center is here. I never said anything about people wont spend money here. Don't put words in my mouth to prove your point. My cousin works at the dragon shoppe on the queen mary. I'm a member of the aquarium that is empty alot of the times, and now uses tax payer money to support the place which the council in 1996 would never happen. If all we have to attract people is a big run down boat, an aquarium that had tagging on some of the glass the last time i was there, then no wonder the city council said it's not pleased with the amounts of tourists coming into the city. The hotels are empty most of the times, so i don't know where your info is coming from. I'm sorry that you want to kiss the cities ass, but don't you tell me that i just want to bitch. You don't know anything about me, but you seem to think you know everything. lbguy metro you need to learn how to read what people say, and not what you want them to say. You make comments that i think the convention center is stupid. where did i say that? because i didn't say that and you know it. You have to work for the city to be this happy with what is going on. I guess bringing up issues in this city are lame if it doesn't go along with your distorted view of this city.

[yibs]

And when it comes to the city place lofts. I find it hard to believe that those lofts cost the same as where i live on ocean. Do the city place lofts really go for 900,000 and up? or maybe i read what you said wrong. What shopping district is over there? I sure can't find one. I goto east long beach and orange county to shop. I would love to give my money to the downtown area, but i don't want clothes and food from walmart. Trader joes replied to a letter i sent them about opening up in downtown. It said that we have no plans for a shop in downtown. I would think that there waiting for more people with money to move here, and who knows how long that will take. I don't mind target as much, but it's the same concept as walmart, so it would still attract the same people. A higher class department store could of been another choice. I saw it as the city council see us as a walmart quality city. The heart of our downtown is a fucking walmart and people seem to be just fine with that. The only place i like in downtown is the blue cafe, and i always get hit up for money by all the homeless people wandering around. I like to be left alone when i go for a walk. Am i out of line to say that when i go for a walk i don't want to be asked by numerous people for money? Should i have to accept it? Do i have the right to be left alone? The homeless people here seem to think i have to respond to them, and when i don't they sometimes get mad or borderline violent.

[lbguymetro]

Also what visitor isn't going to care about nice retail? And you said if we don't get high end retail that is ok because we have diversity? Diversity in what? That is why we need some high end retail in downtown, because we don't have any. I could also think of a few beaches more famous than ours. Start with Huntington beach is world famous from surf competitions, bikini contests which my sister was in. lol

How about malibu and zuma? A beach and a downtown are different. Long Beach is one of the few unique places that has a downtown somewhat on the water, but really our downtown is not on the water. The convention center is cool, but that again is going going to make people spend money and buy a place. The tagger who shot and killed that kid on pine last year was just convicted. Violence is down from where it was in the early 90's around here, but it is still a big problem. A group of women were robbed a few months ago right below the aqua on seaside way. I don't like walking there at night, because it's dark, and easy for someone to hide and do something. They should put some police down there. All in all this debate could go forever.



so what is it your point here about the convention center yibs ? its not even clear what you said...im not putting words into your mouth and i certainly dont work for the city....im just one optimistic person about long beach since i moved out here...coz i like the attractions...and the way of life..if youre not satisfied, then go somewhere else, rather than attacking people here in this thread...you even said that long beach will always be a little ghetto....the way you sound in this forum, youre miserable and the manner you respond is very defensive, sarcastic and uneducated!

[SantaCruzGuy]

We need to e-mail council members more often... We need to let them know we want more of our dt. I love the potential and uniqueness of our dt, but it is looking a bit dirty. Pine Ave. needs a lot of work. City place is "new" and the walls and windows of the stores are dirty, fading, and they are painted in 90's colors. There is a lot of vacancies in retail and apts on Pine Ave., so we need to attract more people. I am not an advocate for only "high retail", but we need atleast some good middle-upper-class stores mixed in with the current stores. Long Beach is diverse racially and economically, but our dt needs to show it.

P>S> does anyone know what retail stores have signed up for some of the promenade retail?

[drisee]

P>S> does anyone know what retail stores have signed up for some of the promenade retail?

the answer to that question is probably none.

lbguymetro, reading your posts really annoy me. you get mad at people for overanalyzing the city and seemingly wanting more. why is that so wrong. you seem like the kind of guy that would be happy living in riverside with mostly uncultured people that think a strip mall with an Islands restaurant is the coolest thing ever. you say you don't work for the city and that goodness you don't, the last thing we need is another city worker trying to justify their day jobs but arguing about how great this city is. and this goes for everybody, can your stop making the "then just move if you don't like it comment". fuck me, enough already.

so people like yibs and myself want more from the city. i'm happy to hear that people like yibs also email the city to inquire about things or actually even take the time to email trader joes. that's very cool and i've done the same thing. although i didn't get response :( maybe that's even worse then getting a denial. But maybe we can all start emailing once a week and get our neighbors to do the same thing.

ya, come to that meeting and make your voices heard. let the city know you're tired of the developments like the albertsons lofts. ya, they're ok inside but they do nothing for the city from the outside. another example of a piss poor RDA project that leaves our city worse off then before.

i like where i live and i see the potential but i certainly don't love it. if you do that's great but don't get angry at us for wanting more. afterall if we all just loved our city so much would we even be in here talking about it. what the hell would we be talking about...how cool city place is...perhaps organizing culture walks around the DT. we could meet up at Walmart and walk to the pike together, perhaps stop for a movie at the ghetto pine theater.

demand more, but we willing to do your part.

[SantaCruzGuy]

I was inspired to e mail both district 1&2 council members and the mayor... hey, are the Lohenthal's and/or the mayor progressive and possitive toward development in dt?

oh...and in one of the promenade renderings i see signage for urban outfitters?! Are they a go or a no anymore?

[lbguymetro]

the answer to that question is probably none.

lbguymetro, reading your posts really annoy me. you get mad at people for overanalyzing the city and seemingly wanting more. why is that so wrong. you seem like the kind of guy that would be happy living in riverside with mostly uncultured people that think a strip mall with an Islands restaurant is the coolest thing ever. you say you don't work for the city and that goodness you don't, the last thing we need is another city worker trying to justify their day jobs but arguing about how great this city is. and this goes for everybody, can your stop making the "then just move if you don't like it comment". fuck me, enough already.

so people like yibs and myself want more from the city. i'm happy to hear that people like yibs also email the city to inquire about things or actually even take the time to email trader joes. that's very cool and i've done the same thing. although i didn't get response :( maybe that's even worse then getting a denial. But maybe we can all start emailing once a week and get our neighbors to do the same thing.

ya, come to that meeting and make your voices heard. let the city know you're tired of the developments like the albertsons lofts. ya, they're ok inside but they do nothing for the city from the outside. another example of a piss poor RDA project that leaves our city worse off then before.

i like where i live and i see the potential but i certainly don't love it. if you do that's great but don't get angry at us for wanting more. afterall if we all just loved our city so much would we even be in here talking about it. what the hell would we be talking about...how cool city place is...perhaps organizing culture walks around the DT. we could meet up at Walmart and walk to the pike together, perhaps stop for a movie at the ghetto pine theater.

demand more, but we willing to do your part.


yibs responses just irritates me...i have no problem if yibs disagrees with me but for him to say that im putting words into his mouth and that i should know how to read people's post is way off the point...

[drisee]

I was inspired to e mail both district 1&2 council members and the mayor... hey, are the Lohenthal's and/or the mayor progressive and possitive toward development in dt?

oh...and in one of the promenade renderings i see signage for urban outfitters?! Are they a go or a no anymore?

i would say both of them are pro development. suja more because city/urban planning is part of her education and she seems to have some pretty good ideas. they are not the problem, most of the time it's city staff, both planning and RDA that mess things up. the mayor, i have no idea. he just seems to do nothing except sit through meetings. i haven't seen him take a stance or really lead. perhaps that is wrong but if someone would like to educate me on his merits i'm all ears.

as for the urban outfitters sign, that's just wishful thinking by the architect.

[LAMetroGuy]

Court in the crosshairs
L.B.: State officials are expected to allocate $217M for project.
By Wendy Thomas Russell, Staff writer
Long Beach Press Telegram
Article Launched:08/19/2007 10:28:56 PM PDT

LONG BEACH - Someone pinch Ronna Uruburu.

What once seemed to her like a pipe dream - the construction of an all-new Long Beach Courthouse - is almost certain to become a reality, with state officials expected to commit $217 million to the project in their next budget.

As the long-time administrator of the city's dilapidated courthouse at 415 W. Ocean Blvd., Uruburu is having a hard time believing the good news. In fact, she said, she held off spreading the word to court employees until last week because she was a little afraid to jinx it.

"It's exhilarating," she said. "It's just too good to be true."

Her incredulity is understandable.

Local court officials have been begging for a new judicial building for more than a decade, with efforts taking on a decidedly more serious tone about three years ago.

Since then, the project has gone from No. 93 on the state's list of priority courthouses to one of the first. And, while nothing can be finalized until the 2007-08 budget is passed, officials within the California Judicial Council's Administrative Office of the Courts have expressed confidence that the city will have a new, seven-story courthouse by April 2011.

The timing may be a little ambitious, says Long Beach Superior Court Judge Bradford Andrews, who has led the local lobby for court funding, but the process is well under way.

The AOC has proposed that the state earmark $793 million for new court construction statewide. The Long Beach job would be the second-largest of five courthouses to receive part of that funding and would break new ground in that it would be built as a public-private partnership, Andrews said.

Officials have begun assembling a committee to draft a request for proposals for developers to build the courthouse and lease it back to the state with an option to buy. In exchange, the developer would get the valuable Ocean Boulevard land on which the current courthouse sits.

So far, the project is envisioned as a 31-courtroom building, possibly in downtown Long Beach near the corner of Broadway and Magnolia Avenue.

"This is the first (courthouse) to be built like this," Andrews said, "to the extent that the builder is going to select the site."

Built in 1958, Long Beach Superior Court is an antiquated, overcrowded and literally falling apart.

In Department J, the busiest criminal courtroom in the building, the ceiling is crumbling from water damage. Audience members must crowd into one side of the courtroom, or wait in the hallway, while yellow "Caution" tape wraps around the other half of the gallery - keeping the public from being hit by falling chunks of acoustic ceiling.

The sheriff's lockup is inefficient, hard to access and runs far beyond its capacity, compromising safety on a daily basis, many say.

The building's air-conditioning is spotty at best, and leaks incessantly. But, after taking one look at the hulking unit on the roof, it seems a small miracle that it functions at all, Andrews said.

"It's literally disintegrating," Andrews said.

Thankfully, the number of rats in the building has subsided considerably. Andrews tells a story about his wife, Deborah, also a Long Beach judge, who walked into her courtroom a couple of years ago to find a rat in "the well" in front of her bench.

The rat was still alive, Andrews said, but was flopping around on sticky tape that had been set out to trap rats the night before.

Right in the middle of a plea, a maintenance worker walked into the courtroom, put the rat in a plastic bag and carried it out.

"She never missed a beat," Andrews said of his wife. "She just kept right on with the plea, and sentenced this guy."

Such is the routine for Long Beach judges.

The standards have become so low, Uruburu said, that most court employees don't bother reporting relatively minor problems, such as ceiling leaks, anymore.

But nothing brought attention to the ailing court like the 2005 death of a prospective juror on the sixth floor. Efforts to save William Anthony, who had suffered a heart attack in the cafeteria, were slowed by the building's broken elevators and escalators.

After that, Supervisor Don Knabe and other local officials stepped up their own efforts to bring attention to the courthouse's burgeoning needs.

And, to everyone's surprise, it worked. Relief may finally be on its way.

Uruburu said it's been her pleasure delivering the good news to so many people - from attorneys and clerks to administrators and court staff - who she admires so much.

"It's the worst facility (in the state)," she said. "But when it comes to the people who work here, it's the best."

Wendy Thomas Russell can be reached at wendy.russell@

presstelegram.com or

(562) 499-1272.

[LongBeachUrbanist]

Thank goodness, the current courthouse is a piece of shit.

[ChrisLA]

I would just hope they moved the courthouse somewhere else. The pedestrians have no regard for car traffic. What pisses me off too is they put a crosswalk what 75 feet from the intersection so that those lazy fat folks (judges, employees) don't have to walk to the corner and cross at the light. Its about the dumbest spot, and it causes major backup which isn't necessary. Employees come out of the parking gararge in a steady stream. Finallly when you think the last pedestrian has cleared and drivers are ready to pass. Well here comes some slow fat person who instead of waiting for the traffic to clears, steps out without looking and the process starts all over again.

I hate that spot with a passion, and for me I have few options since Magnolia is the only street that goes all the way through to Ocean. Sometimes I drive up to Pacific Avenue, and back up to Magnolia just the avoid the frustration. If anything, why not even build a pedestrian bridge, or at least even more simply and cheaper put in a light to control the pedestrian traffic at the crosswalk. It would make things much easier and safe for both drivers and pedestrians. But I guess its brings in revenue from all of the citations they give out. The police sits there every day behind the wall just waiting for frustrated drivers who don't yeild for that last fat person to step into the crosswalk. :hell: :hell:

[rolinda]

hi,
does anyone have an update on west ocean? do you know when they will open? Howdoes it look? Any retail stores in place for the building? What are rents going for in that type of building 1 and 2 bedrooms? thanks!

[drisee]

i like the courhouse from an aesthetic point of view. it's a cool midcentury style office building. not sure when it was built...perhaps in the 60s. i wonder what they'll do with after the courthouse shifts. i would vote for adaptive reuse.

[regboi21]

Do you all think that the long beach city planners should redevelop that city block on long beach blvd behind the press telegram building the city block has a dennys restaurant a el pollo loco fast food place a one story old brick building that has a chinese food restaurant a prescription drug store taco bell and a ymca center i think those buildings should be razed and rebuilt with something better and upscale this block is on long beach blvd between east 6th st and 7th st.

[drisee]

Do you all think that the long beach city planners should redevelop that city block on long beach blvd behind the press telegram building the city block has a dennys restaurant a el pollo loco fast food place a one story old brick building that has a chinese food restaurant a prescription drug store taco bell and a ymca center i think those buildings should be razed and rebuilt with something better and upscale this block is on long beach blvd between east 6th st and 7th st.

Oh hell ya. What's funny is that you don't even think about these type of lots sometimes because there are bigger projects going on but this is another good spot for the future that shows what a blank slate downtown is sometimes. It would take some time to do this though...a big developer would have to swoop in and buy up all the land to piece it together. Or the RDA would have to piece it together but i doubt they have the money for it.

Would be nice to do somethigng there.

What do you guys think about our new city manager being hired today after the long search, Pat West?

[LAMetroGuy]

http://www.monumenttohumanity.org/components/com_fpslideshow/images/monument.jpg
Source: Monument to Humanity at www.monumenttohumanity.org

Monument Launches Website
The proposed $250 million Monument to Humanity in the Long Beach Harbor has recently launched a website and fundraising campaign. The 333-foot statue and learning center would be located near the Long Beach Harbor.

The statue called the Monument to Humanity Research & Learning Center which would be located near the Long Beach Harbor.

Click here to visit the website: www.monumenttohumanity.org


The LA Times, which ran an article about the proposed statue a few months ago, describes it as "a transparent globe supported by four bronze pan-racial figures, two men and two women, representing all ethnicities atop a steel tower. The monument will include a museum of human history, a broadcast arm, an elevated rail to transport visitors from parking structures, and a peace academy program.

(Article source: LBPOST.com)

[LAMetroGuy]

Concerns about the Shoreline Gateway Project are less about the building, more about the cars
By Heather Reger
The District Weekly


THE SHORELINE GATEWAY

The shortest street in Long Beach is about to have an estimated 500 more cars driving on it.

A 35-story residential and retail tower, soon to be the tallest building in the city, is expected to break ground within the next two years, the first phase of a two-phase project. While the Shoreline Gateway project has been in the works since 2005 and has undergone numerous changes, including a downsized lot, there are still kinks to be worked out, the most prevalent being bare minimum parking accommodations and uncertain traffic impact at the busy intersection of Ocean Boulevard and Alamitos Avenue.

After receiving mixed reviews from residents on their original design concept, which featured a shorter tower, Gateway developers Anderson Pacific and designer Michael Bohn, a 43-year Long Beach resident, unveiled new plans at a July 30 community meeting. The plans called for a heightened tower—417 feet—with a sleek and slender appeal. Although many like the tower’s new appearance—featuring tinted glass to deflect light with a curvier, sexier body inspired by a sailboat’s shape—there are still concerns that the plan doesn’t entirely address the issue of increased vehicles and congestion at an already hectic intersection.

“I’m not going to lie to anybody and tell them that there isn’t going to be an impact on traffic,” says David White, a redevelopment project officer for Long Beach. “But I can assure you that everything is being done to limit that impact.”

One of those things is a building camera provided by the city that will monitor the tower’s sole entrance and determine traffic patterns during peak travel time. From these patterns, signals can be altered to accommodate traffic flow, White says. The Environmental Impact Report monitored 58 intersections in the surrounding areas, and no alterations are anticipated at the Ocean/Alamitos intersection. However, a new signal will be installed at the intersection of Lime Avenue and Seventh Street once the tower is erected.

The original design allowed for multiple entrances into the development, including one on Ocean and another off Alamitos; but, according to White, after a review by Long Beach traffic engineers, it was decided to create only one entrance accessible from Medio Street, which, at one block in length, is the shortest street in Long Beach. How is that going to work? Well . . .

“As you know, it’s conjecture; we don’t really know,” says Long Beach Councilmember Suja Lowenthal, whose Second District includes the Gateway Project. “We’re making presumptions. We’re just living through this as the project develops.”

The first tower is planned to house an estimated 495 underground parking stalls to accommodate residents in approximately 220 units, as well as retail-store employee, guests, and some public parking. Some community members believe the number of parking stalls is far too low. Bill Anderson, president and CEO of Anderson Pacific, said at the July 30 meeting that he didn’t want to get specific about certain strategies relating to traffic and parking due to the early stages of the project. Ryan Altoon, an Anderson vice-president, said that the allotted parking spaces are within the city’s requirements and that not all of the units are two bedrooms. (The city only requires 1.5 spaces for one bedroom units, and the 6,300 square feet of retail space requires nominal parking stalls.)

Still, with 167 two-bedroom units and 54 one-bedrooms, that means that 415 parking stalls will be given to residents, leaving just 80 spaces to accommodate guests, employees, and general public parking.

The project’s acquisition also includes a portion of Lime Avenue, which will no longer be used for vehicular access but will be replaced with an urban garden for public use. This street is used by some residents as an alternative way to turn west onto Ocean instead of waiting in mainstream traffic on Alamitos.

“Anytime you’re dealing with a project of this size, there are going to be issues of traffic, density, and congestion,” White says. “For people who are afraid of change, this can seem scary.”

The Shoreline Gateway Project is just one of several tower developments in the works for the downtown area. And with development comes more vehicles. Local resident and Anthem magazine publisher Andreas Herr doesn’t necessarily think this is a bad thing. Unlike most other residents, he says he hopes that the parking and traffic get worse in the downtown area, because then the city will be forced to seriously consider public transportation.

“It’s time for us to rethink our lives.” Herr says.

Perhaps. Or perhaps we can wait to do that until the project’s second phase begins.

[SantaCruzGuy]

Last week I e-mailed all my concerns to District 1 and 2 council members, and the mayor. District 2 council member has not replied... Here is what they replied:

District 1: Bonnie

J***,

Thank you very much for sharing your concerns regarding downtown. If you would be so kind as to provide your contact information (address/phone), I'd appreciate it. That way I would know better which neighborhood association's area you are in and can refer you to a group that shares your concerns.

I completely agree with you regarding the retail downtown. In fact, I have asked the City's Economic Development Bureau to tell me how the City can help bring higher end retail to the downtown. Residents have been asking for this for the past two years! With the recent addition of hundreds of new residents downtown, this is a very legitimate request. The City has partnered with the Downtown Long Beach Associates (DLBA) to contact a number of potential retailers. The answer is always the same: when more residents locate downtown with higher incomes, retailers will consider moving here. The City currently has a number of new residential projects either in the early or later stages of development. So that is good news! But it is going to take some time to make it happen.

The trolleys suggested by Councilmember Suja Lowenthal are undergoing a study to determine how much it would cost, who would pay for them, and what the timeframe might be. With every public agency undergoing budget problems (from the feds to the cities), this is going to require creativity to bring to fruition.

Please stay in touch, and thanks again for your email! And please send me your address and phone.

Bonnie


Mayor's office:


Mr. E******,

Thank you for contacting Mayor Foster regarding your concerns about the lack of retail and overall cleanliness of Downtown. As part of the Downtown Visioning Process, we are trying to bring more retail stores to downtown. I agree that this is a key component currently missing to make a Downtown more successful. The Economic Development Bureau is working to attract businesses to Long Beach and assisting them in establishing themselves in our City.

Thank you for sharing you thoughts on this issue with Mayor Bob Foster, please let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Sean Petersen
Legislative Deputy
Office of Mayor Bob Foster
333 W Ocean Blvd. 14th Floor
Long Beach, CA 90802
PH: 562-570-5999 Fax: 562-570-6538

[LAMetroGuy]

forgot to post the bigger render:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1308/1199164432_8dae8b26ab.jpg

Source: The District Weekly

[drisee]

santa cruz guy, nice work.

so lemme get this straigh, residents have been asking for retail for two years now and now the councilmember is going to ask the econ development guy what's up. that hasn't been asked before?!

cooler, higher end retailers don't just magically appear. they have to see the potential. you don't just see that with more condos. there has to be a buzz about the streets, there has to be momentum. give the residents of downtown something to be proud of rather then just a park filled with bums.

[yibs]

This is another reason that i don't go near pine ave at night.

http://www.lbreport.com/news/aug07/pinerob.htm

[yibs]

And also being someone that lives right near the shoreline gateway site. I'm also worried about more traffic. I'm sure it can work with a well thought out plan, But pardon me if i have no confidence in the city doing that. And the monument to humanity is odd. Where is the humanity in depriving this city of a natural beach? I don't see much humanity on the west side with the homeless camps everywhere.

[LB Life07]

Yibs I'll admit the area referred to in this article (6th and Pine) can get a little sketchy after dark. As you get further back on pine we all know the area starts to deteriorate. Hopefully with the Press Telegram Lofts which happen to sit right on the corner of 6th and pine, it will help eliminate some of this activity, bringing more light and pedestrian activity to the area. An update on the PT Lofts, I drove past yesterday and noticed that they have now put up a construction fence around the entire building, hopefully this means we'll see ground break soon.

[yibs]

double post. sorry!

[yibs]

I just wish that area could get cleaned up. I don't want people to be moved out, but lets face it, there are a lot of bad people living in some areas around here. I have mentioned before about a friend of mine being robbed of her purse on pine and 5th st last year. I can't remember the last time i heard of stuff like this on 2nd st or even retro row on 4th st. I like some parts of long beach, but downtown is kind of bad at night. And most of the cute little shops are within 4 st, then it just gets worse the further up you go.

http://www.lbreport.com/

[LAMetroGuy]

Little “Wow,” Plenty Of Restaurants At Pike

By Kurt Helin
Editor

It was envisioned as a “wow” project.

When City Council members first talked about the Pike at Rainbow Harbor a decade ago, they had a grand vision — a pedestrian-friendly, bustl-ing, urban waterfront destination that would draw Long Beach residents and people from throughout the region, and would connect Pine Avenue and the water.

Open for less than four years, almost nobody thinks the Pike has come close to those goals.

“The Pike has become a high-rent food court and that’s not what was promised to the city,” said Second District City Councilwoman Suja Lowen-thal, whose district includes the Pike. “It’s not what was promised to the tenants.”

Lowenthal met with representatives from Pike owner Developers Diversified Realty last week to discuss both ongoing concerns — such as problems with parking and the valet service south of Shoreline Drive — as well as the tenant mix.

Those concerns spilled over into the City Council meeting last week when Lowenthal asked the entire council to oppose transfer of a liquor license to the yet-to-open Pint & Piano Bar in the Pike (which also would serve some food).

She said it was time to draw a line in the sand, to tell DDR officials that changes in the tenant mix were needed. That idea got support from Pike merchants as well as the majority of the council (although the final decision on the license rests with the state Alcohol Control Board).

DDR officials say that the Pike is a mixed-use entertainment center, and negotiations for a couple more restaurants are in the works.

“We are pleased with the demand for space and believe that the tenant mix is right for the market,” said Jennifer Gartland, marketing director for the Pike.

And, she said, the Laugh Factory owners plan to open by the end of the year. Work has been going on in the site.

While the tenant mix is a short-term concern, some of the biggest concerns about the Pike are not things easily changed — issues surrounding the basic design. Any change there would be much more extensive and expensive.

Tenant Mix

Eric Johnson, co-owner of the Auld Dubliner at the Pike, told the council last week he has been taken for quite a ride as one of the first (and most successful) tenants in the Pike.

“It has been an absolute roller coaster,” Johnson said. “When we first talked with DDR about opening here, they told us the mix would be one­third restaurants, one-third retail and one-third entertainment. As you know, the Pike has become more of a food court.”

Existing tenants have talked to DDR management about their concerns, Johnson said. Each time they were told there would be no more restaurants. But that was four restaurants ago, he said.

“DDR’s advertising the last three years has been ‘shop the Pike’ when in practice it has been ‘eat the Pike,’” Johnson said.

When the city first started talking about the Pike development more than a decade ago, what city officials envisioned was something more along the lines of the “lifestyle center” such as The Grove in Los Angeles (next to the historic Farmers Market). That successful center is a mix of upscale shops (Apple store, Tommy Bahamas), good restaurants (Morels French Steakhouse) and interesting architecture that has a Main Street feel. It appeals as much to adults as “mall rat” youth and teenagers.

However, The Grove has one thing going for it the Pike does not — demographics.

Located in the heart of Los Angeles with well-to-do neighborhoods around it (or just a short drive away), The Grove has a well-heeled clientele living nearby to draw from.

Draw a one-mile circle around the Pike and 50% of what you get is ocean. While there are some high-end condo complexes and neighborhoods in the circle, there are lower-income areas as well.

That has been the challenge of selling downtown Long Beach for the past decade — not just at the Pike but also along Pine Avenue, in CityPlace, the East Village and beyond.

“I think the Pike shares some of the same problems attracting quality retail that the entire downtown does,” said Brian Ulaszewski, project design director at Studioneleven (part of Perkowitz + Ruth Architects in Long Beach). Ulaszewski was part of a team that worked with Alan Pullman, one of studioneleven’s principals, on a “Pike symposium” a couple years ago.

Lacking the hard numbers retailers want, City officials and retail experts have worked to sell a vision of Long Beach that is just now becoming reality with the building and selling of thousands of higher-rent condominiums downtown.

“I think what’s really going to help is when the Sierra Suites hotel opens,” Ulaszewski said of the already approved hotel for the Pike property. He said that will bring some needed foot traffic from diverse age and economic groups.

Gartland with DDR said that demand for space in the center remains strong.

There have been retail successes at the Pike. For example, the Long Beach Clothing Company has become a popular spot and has already expanded. That is not a store found in other shopping areas but rather something unique to the Pike and the city.

DDR had counted on the CineMark 14 Theaters, the successful GameWorks and the relatively-new Borders bookstore to anchor the entertainment and retail end of the project.

Gartland also pointed to a high lease rate — currently about 90% counting spaces with leases but not yet occupied — as a sign that the project is a success.

“That’s a success for DDR, but what about it is good for the city?” Lowenthal asked.

Design Issues

But while issues such as tenant mix are things that can be fixed without dramatic structural changes, many feel the center is struggling with a design flaws that are holding the project back.

Lowenthal called the problem “pods,” referring to the seemingly suburban style of shop that was just dropped into the project.

“Rather than a pedestrian-friendly waterfront and area woven together, it’s just pods dropped in that could be anywhere,” she said.

“What they tried to do is create an internal-facing project, the kind of thing you could drop in Orange County,” Ulaszewski said. “They didn’t utilize the unique environment they were in.”

The Pike does have features seen in other urban centers — winding streets running through it, some non-store attractions (a Ferris wheel and carousel) and more. These were some of the things insisted on by city staff in the design process.

But many downtown residents still feel the center has a “cookie cutter” feel with both the shops and layout.

Then there are challenges in the design to make The Pike compatible with the Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach. Grass areas facing Shoreline Drive were required so that grandstands could be set up.

However, when you walk out of Gladstone’s or P.F. Chang’s, rather than feeling invited to walk and explore you see a long distance to anything (and much of what you do see is the back of the inward-facing development) Ulaszewski said.

“There were a lot of things designed for the one weekend a year we have the Grand Prix,” Ulaszewski said.

While city officials may recognize these concerns, they are not issues the city can force DDR to address right now.

“All I can really discuss with (DDR) is the tenant mix and parking issues,” Lowenthal said. “What is in a redesign for them?”

The issues she did discuss with DDR are not small ones — the problems with parking and valet service have cost the restaurants south of Shoreline Drive business and remain an ongoing concern for those owners.

But in the long term, finding the real “wow” for the Pike remains an elusive problem.

[LB Life07]

Details For Downtown Vision Will Wait For Study Money

By Kurt Helin
Editor

Making recently completed grand visioning plans for downtown a reality will take a more specific blueprint, and the money to develop those ideas.

Last week, the City Council said they want that detailed plan — as soon as they can find the money.

The council approved starting the work as soon as the needed $290,000 can be found in the city budget. When that will be is hard to say, although Second District Councilwoman Suja Lowenthal said she hopes that it can be this year.

While residential and commercial development has exploded downtown in the past few years, there have been concerns about the long-term future and growth of the area.

“I think downtown is at a development and transportation crossroads,” Lowenthal said.

To help guide the area through that crossroads, a resident-based “downtown visioning task force” was put together to look at where they wanted to see downtown evolve. That group made a presentation to the City Council last Tuesday.

The core of the plan is to have taller buildings in a more compact downtown (similar to New York or San Francisco). That would free up land to have more and better public spaces. The report also discusses the need for better public transportation and embracing both the waterfront and the arts.

One key suggestion is to encourage bold and interesting architecture downtown. Among the suggestions was mixing restored historic buildings and funky new architecture next to each other. Another goal should be to attract creative and technology-based businesses to the downtown core by bringing in companies that want to be in an urban environment and offer good paying jobs.

City Council members said they liked the plan.

“I think it’s essential for a first-class city to have a first-class downtown,” said Seventh District Councilwoman Tonia Reyes-Uranga.

However, transitioning from the broad strokes of the visioning effort to a concrete plan takes work, specifically coming up with a more detailed plan, then finding ways to incorporate it into the city’s building and zoning codes. That is something some downtown advocates have asked to see for years.

“There are parts where the zoning in downtown didn’t work (for projects coming in) and we were piece-mealing things together,” said First District Councilwoman Bonnie Lowenthal.

Putting that together will take considerable city staff time, plus there will be continued outreach and meetings in the community through the process, the council was told.

That costs money. With a very tight city budget currently before the council, the needed $290,000 to continue the evolution of this visioning process is not currently available, the council was told.

The council’s unanimous action last week will move the visioning process to the next level of detail once the money can be found, either through savings or unexpected windfall.

[LB Life07]

Lofts bring closure to CityPlace failed indoor mall
By Don Jergler, Staff columnist
Article Launched: 08/27/2007 12:00:00 AM PDT


Video: Realty Bites v-blog: A visit to the CityPlace lofts
The Redevelopment Agency continues to erase the remnants of the ill-fated Long Beach Plaza, bringing some closure to a bad memory left by the failed indoor mall and adding another piece of the puzzle to downtown's development jigsaw.

The first phase of CityPlace Lofts at Fourth Street and Elm Avenue is complete and more new downtown residents are already moved in.

The lofts, next to the Albertson's shopping center between Long Beach Boulevard and Elm, offer prices starting from $399,990 up to about $700,000 and sizes from 1,092 square feet to 2,085 square feet.

The $35 million CityPlace Lofts are a 72-unit condominium/loft project. The south building, Phase I, was completed in December 2006 and Phase II, the north building, is scheduled for completion in September 2007.

The Long Beach Plaza was


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demolished in 2000. The downtown Long Beach structure, built in the late 1970s, had become a prime example of failed enclosed retail.
Thanks to redevelopment, that failed mall was replaced with the roughly 475,000-square-foot CityPlace shopping center, a large apartment complex that weaves throughout the center and also fronts Pine Avenue.

"That mall really wasn't functioning," said Craig Beck, Redevelopment Bureau manager.

The Redevelopment Agency, which owned the land, spent $17 million to assist the project, including land write-downs and public improvements.

CityPlace includes more than 300 residential units on eight city blocks in the heart of downtown. Retail anchors include Nordstrom Rack, Ross Dress for Less, and Wal-Mart. The project includes 2,400 spaces of structured parking.

Many of the lofts have hardwood flooring. Lofts also include stainless steel appliances and granite kitchen countertops.

Phase I is 51 lofts, of which 17 have been sold, according Debbie Tucker, superintendent of the project.

Phase II is 21 lofts, and all lofts in that phase are up for sale.

The lofts, which the developer describes as contemporary, are spacious.

"They're all very nice and airy and they have nice finishes," Tucker said. "People like the openness. They can walk in and see everything as they walk through the door."

The developer dropped the asking prices on the lofts by about 10 percent off the original price.

"They took into consideration the market, and the fact that Long Beach is very competitive," Tucker said.

Call (310) 848-5153 for the sales office.

Don Jergler can be reached at don.jergler@presstelegram.com or (562) 499-1281.

[drisee]

not sure why people still search for ways to "fix" the pike. just start over and develop something new. clueless RDA folk with another lame project.

and city place lofts??!! not even fair to call those lofts. they're shitty condos that once again just make downtown worse, not fixing a damn thing.

the RDAs slogan should be "replacing blighted areas with blight". how can so many people be so clueless.

sorry to be mr. negative, but is there anything positive to talk about in regards to the downtown? anybody have some good news?

[yibs]

Some more people got shot recently. And if long beach is a first class city, then what is Paris or Venice? I wouldn't live here if i wasn't on the beach. The area around the cityplace condos is so dead at night, except for the wackos and thugs wandering around looking for adventure and fun.

[LAMetroGuy]

yibs, glad you risk your life on a daily basis for the privilege to live on the beach... you're a true example of a smart person! :tup: