[philip]

Airbus unveils world’s biggest passenger jet
A380 ‘superjumbo’ rolls out to massive fanfare, expectations

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050118/050118_airbus_unveil_hlrg_5a.hlarge.jpg

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/3097film_icon.jpgVideo Click Here (http://video.msn.com/video/p.htm?i=e211142f-88aa-422d-83a8-8f902eb36a55&m=Biz%20-%20Tech&mi=Top%20Business%20News&p=Source_CNBC&GT1=5997&rf=http://www.msn.com/)


Posted: MSN (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6833386/) Updated: 1:55 p.m. ET Jan. 18, 2005

TOULOUSE, France - Airbus showed off its giant A380, a double-decked behemoth that could revolutionize long-haul flying, at a lavish ceremony Tuesday with European leaders gathered for the first official look at the world's largest passenger plane.

Airbus is betting its newfound status as the world's leading jet maker on the "superjumbo" that has a 262-foot wingspan, a tail as tall as a seven-story building and which cost $13 billion to develop.

French President Jacques Chirac, as well as the leaders of Britain, Germany and Spain — Airbus' other three government backers — and CEOs from the 14 airlines and freight transporters that have so far ordered the A380 attended the elaborate ceremony at company headquarters in Toulouse, southern France.

Chirac called the A380 "a veritable liner of the skies" and said its debut "is for all of us a moment of emotion and pride."

"Your adventure is a great success for Europe," he told Airbus workers.

The show before almost 5,000 guests debuted with music, clouds of dry ice and dancers in the hangar where A380s are assembled, one of the largest enclosed spaces in Europe. Projected images of planes from the Airbus range sped across the hangar walls and dancers suspended on wires appeared to walk on thin air.

Children tugged on white cords to pull down a curtain, unveiling the plane lit in blue behind.

The launch of the A380 seemed certain to become a milestone in civil aviation history alongside the 747 and Concorde. Unlike the supersonic Concorde, however, whose claim to fame was how fast it crossed the Atlantic, this latest fruit of European aerospace cooperation will ultimately be judged on how fast it makes money.

Airbus has already taken 149 orders for the $280 million plane, "which for a plane of this size that has not yet flown is an extraordinary commercial performance," Airbus CEO Noel Forgeard said.

Airbus says companies have options on dozens more and that the program will break even after 250 sales — an objective it hopes to reach within three years.

In all, the company expects to sell 700-750 aircraft; "It's a plane that will fly for 30 to 40 years," Forgeard said.

Airbus trailed Boeing Co. until 2003, when it delivered more planes than its U.S. rival for the first time — a feat it matched last year, with 320 deliveries to Boeing's 285, and is likely to repeat this year.

Sustaining that lead will depend partly on the outcome of Airbus' audacious bet on strong demand for the A380. Airbus plans the first test flight of the 280-metric ton (308-ton) plane sometime before March 31.

In a three-class cabin layout, the A380 will carry 555 passengers — 33 percent more than the plane it is designed to displace, Boeing's veteran 747. The A380 has 49 percent more floor space — leaving additional room for features such as on-board shops, bars, casinos or even nurseries.

On a full tank, it will also carry passengers 5 percent farther than Boeing's longest-range jumbo, Airbus claims, producing costs per passenger that are up to one-fifth below its rival's.

How the plane's extra space is used will be left up to airlines, whose A380 cabin designs have remained closely guarded. In the future, low-cost carriers could operate the A380 with a single economy-class configuration accommodating as many as 800 passengers.

Virgin company chief Richard Branson said his airline, which has ordered six A380s, will offer private double beds for first-class passengers and casinos.

The chairman of Dubai-based carrier Emirates, which is so far the largest A380 customer with 45 orders, said the plane was a "key element in our future growth" and offers "the widest cabin of any aircraft in the world."

"It provides lower seat-mile costs and carries more passengers further and consumes less fuel than its competitors," Sheikh Ahmed bin Saee Al Maktoum said.

Chew Choon Seng, CEO of Singapore Airlines, said the A380 would increase passenger and cargo capacities "without increasing aircraft movements and without congesting the skies and adding to congestion on airport taxiways and runways."

Singapore Airlines will begin using the plane for services to London and Sydney when it becomes the first carrier to carry commercial passengers aboard the A380 in mid-2006, he said.

Airbus hopes to sell 750 superjumbos to airlines operating services between the busiest airports, mainly in Asia, which serve as hubs, or stopovers between connecting flights.

Boeing, on the other hand, sees demand for only 400 jets larger than its 747 over the next two decades, as air passengers increasingly gravitate toward direct flights aboard a new generation of smaller, long-range jets like its planned 7E7.

The superjumbo's entry into service next year is a challenge to already stretched airport infrastructure.

London's Heathrow airport says it is spending over $800 million, providing everything from double-decker passenger ramps to enlarged baggage conveyors capable of processing 555 passengers on one flight.

Other airports are spending billions more on similar improvements, but there is concern that some may not be ready in time.

[FRED]

From www.airliners.net


Photo 1 (http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=759763&WxsIERv=QWlyYnVzIEEzODAtODQx&WdsYXMg=QWlyYnVzIEluZHVzdHJpZQ%3D%3D&QtODMg=VG91bG91c2UgLSBCbGFnbmFjIChUTFMgLyBMRkJPKQ%3D%3D&ERDLTkt=RnJhbmNl&ktODMp=SmFudWFyeSAxOCwgMjAwNQ%3D%3D&BP=1&WNEb25u=TWljaGFlbCBFZ2dlbnNjaHdpbGVy&xsIERvdWdsY=Ri1XV09X&MgTUQtODMgKE=RnJvbnQtc2lkZSB2aWV3IG9mIEFpcmJ1cycgbmV3ZXN0IGFuZCBtb3N0IHJlbWFya2FibGUgYWRkaXRpb24gdG8gaXRzIGNhdGFsb2d1ZS4%3D&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=MTEyNTQ%3D&NEb25uZWxs=MjAwNS0wMS0xOA%3D%3D&ODJ9dvCE=&O89Dcjdg=MDAx&static=yes&sok=V0hFUkUgIChhaXJjcmFmdF9nZW5lcmljID0gJ0FpcmJ1cyBBMzgwJykgIG9yZGVyIGJ5IHBob3RvX2lkIERFU0M%3D&photo_nr=2)

Photo 2 (http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=759854&WxsIERv=QWlyYnVzIEEzODAtODQx&WdsYXMg=QWlyYnVzIEluZHVzdHJpZQ%3D%3D&QtODMg=VG91bG91c2UgLSBCbGFnbmFjIChUTFMgLyBMRkJPKQ%3D%3D&ERDLTkt=RnJhbmNl&ktODMp=SmFudWFyeSAxOCwgMjAwNQ%3D%3D&BP=1&WNEb25u=TWljaGFlbCBFZ2dlbnNjaHdpbGVy&xsIERvdWdsY=Ri1XV09X&MgTUQtODMgKE=VGhpcyB3aWxsIGRlZmluYXRlbHkgYmxvd2RyeSB5b3VyIGhhaXIh&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=MTg2MA%3D%3D&NEb25uZWxs=MjAwNS0wMS0xOA%3D%3D&ODJ9dvCE=&O89Dcjdg=MDAx&static=yes&sok=V0hFUkUgIChhaXJjcmFmdF9nZW5lcmljID0gJ0FpcmJ1cyBBMzgwJykgIG9yZGVyIGJ5IHBob3RvX2lkIERFU0M%3D&photo_nr=1)

[Stratosphere]

Chew Choon Seng, CEO of Singapore Airlines, said the A380 would increase passenger and cargo capacities "without increasing aircraft movements and without congesting the skies and adding to congestion on airport taxiways and runways."
True. But it will still congest the gates and the terminals. It's gonna take quite a while to load and unload the passengers and the luggages.

[Daquan13]

I figured that since their newest & biggest jetliner was unveiled yesterstay, that with it came a brand new paint sceme.

The plane was on local & national news, as well as appearing in several newspapers.

[Daquan13]

No mention of whose engines have been installed on the plane's wings though. Or as to whether who ordered which brands of engines.

Usually, the airlines are given s choice of engine makes from which to choose. For instance, which engine company is offering the the choice? Is it Rolls Royce, Pratt & Whitney or General Electric?

And at what capacity or thrust rating? I would imagine that the thrust rating is somewhere in the neighborhood of either 90 to about 110 pounds of thrust for each engine.

[The Chemist]

The engines on the first model are clearly not Rolls Royce (RR engines have a wide opening at the back with no protruding rear cone - the engines on the first A380 have a protruding rear cone). Available engines for the A380 are the RR Trent 900 and The Engine Alliance (P&W/GE Joint venture) GP7200. Engine thrust is said to be between 70k to 90k pounds for each engine, but I can't find exact stats at the moment.

[Daquan13]

On previously-made arcraft, that was the case also.

The Lockheed-Martin L-1011 had RR engines in which the cones did not protude at the back, as does some of the Boeing 757's & some of the 767's.

United & Northwest use 757's with P&W engines, while American & USAirways use 757's that have RR engines.

United's 767's have P&W engines, while British Airways' 767's have RR engines. Later, British found out that the 767 was not the plane that had accepted the RR engines so easily, as there was problems associated with the marriage of the RR engines to this plane.

Then those shown on the A380 have to be the GP7200 engines, which are said to have much wider frontal fan intakes over RR & P&W engines.

[philip]

Dear Dudes,

The engine and thrust info is available on the web.

Here it is:

http://www.airchive.com/Memorabilia/Airbus/*A380-6.jpg

http://www.airchive.com/Memorabilia/Airbus/A380-2.jpg

[Daquan13]

A picture IS worth a thousand words!!! You're right!!

You did great, Phillip!!

Over in THIS country, & according to the map, UAL, Continental & Air Canada were in involved in the plane's definition.

We can count them out, as they are so strapped for cash now, that they don't even stand a snowball's chance in hell of even being able to afford to FUEL the craft, much less being able to buy it!!

Besides, us employees at United would give them pure holy HELL if they even THINK about buying this plane!!! They made us take so many cuts in pay & benefits, let them even make the attempt!!
Fat chance!!!

Continental, BTW, has decided to order the 7E7 Dreamliner instead.

[iamrobk]

So now they have 50 airports that can handle this beast? I only thought it was like 8 or 9........

[Daquan13]

In the USA, only one. so far. LAX when it's done with the upgrades.

This monster is not only going to be ridiculously expensive to buy, own, refuel, operate & maintain. It's also going to cost millions just for airports to make the upgrades for gates, the ground crew, even runways to be able to accept it!!

And as for LGA (LaGuadia), forget about it! That one is out of the question because if this plane even THINKS about trying to use the runways there, it spells pure disaster!!!

The runways there are out on piers (docks)!!

LHR is spending the money to let the plane go there. And speaking of runways & the ground itself, they must be made wider, as the plane's multitude of wheels must spread the craft's weight evenly on the ground.

I think that AI just might be getting in too deep over their heads on this one. It could end up going the way of the Concorde (not the crash). Too expensive to use no matter what!

[philip]

Dear Daquan13 and iamrobk, (hehe, did I sound corny)

A few US carriers has been involved with the definition of A380 (I wonder what that means, I guess it means they had shown some interest) since 1996, but that was almost 10 years ago. The air travel business has changed a lot since then especially immediately after 9/11 attack. As of today, the only US carriers that have ordered the A380 are FedEx and UPS and for the freight planes only.

http://www.airbus.com/multimediaelements/3302.jpg

As for the rest of the world, especially in the growing Asian population and the explosive business growth between Asia and Europe, A380 does seem to make a pretty good business sense. I don't know if you guys have been to Asian countries, but during my last several visits to Hong Kong and Taiwan, the Boeing 747-400 planes were almost always full and the price was very darn high. Also, Asians prefer airplanes over cars, partly because they don't have as many highways, and partly because not every Asian family owns 3 or more cars like the US. Taking a plane is actually a lot cheaper than owning a car in Taiwan (ONE parking space is leased for 300 US dollars a month from where I used to live.)

Airbus has been working with 50 airports to improve their runways and ternimals, but so far only a few have finished renovation and a few more next year. That's why Virgin Atlantic delays their A380 service to the US because most of our airports are not ready, notably LAX. Anway, I don't think when Boeing 747 was introduced, every airports in the US was ready for it either. These things take time, we will catch up soon, there is not much to be worried about.

[The Chemist]

LHR is spending the money to let the plane go there. And speaking of runways & the ground itself, they must be made wider, as the plane's multitude of wheels must spread the craft's weight evenly on the ground.



Not true. The A380 was designed to use existing runways and taxiways and fit into the standard 80 metre wide airplane box, and its weight is not excessive because it has so many wheels. Nobody would ever buy it if runways had to be rebuilt for it, so Airbus made sure they wouldn't have to. The main expense is building the gates that can handle two decks of passengers and the baggage handling systems that can handle 550 passengers at once.


I think that AI just might be getting in too deep over their heads on this one. It could end up going the way of the Concorde (not the crash). Too expensive to use no matter what!

Do you not even read what is posted? The A380 is the most fuel efficient passenger airplane ever built, so I'd hardly say it'll be expensive to operate - operating costs per flight will probably be no more than a standard 747-400. But with the ability to carry over 150 more passengers, this means each flight is more profitable. And I might remind you that the kind of arguments you're making now were made against the 747 35 years ago, and we all know how groundless they were then.

[Stratosphere]

Well, Boeing might somewhat benefit from the birth of the A380. Airports around the world have to upgrade to handle this leviathan. So when Boeing comes up with their own 600-passenger double decker a decade from now or so, they won't have to worry about this issue anymore.:D

[philip]

I am looking forward to the day when people can fly in 1000-passengers planes. Maybe throw in some timeshare hotel/condo units on it too. They already have the ResidenSea (www.residensea.com)(a floating residential city), why not making a ResidenSky?? :D

http://www.ptolomy.com/DESIGN/SkyCity3.jpg
Yes, they float and travel.

[Daquan13]

LHR is spending the money to let the plane go there. And speaking of runways & the ground itself, they must be made wider, as the plane's multitude of wheels must spread the craft's weight evenly on the ground.



Not true. The A380 was designed to use existing runways and taxiways and fit into the standard 80 metre wide airplane box, and its weight is not excessive because it has so many wheels. Nobody would ever buy it if runways had to be rebuilt for it, so Airbus made sure they wouldn't have to. The main expense is building the gates that can handle two decks of passengers and the baggage handling systems that can handle 550 passengers at once.



Do you not even read what is posted? The A380 is the most fuel efficient passenger airplane ever built, so I'd hardly say it'll be expensive to operate - operating costs per flight will probably be no more than a standard 747-400. But with the ability to carry over 150 more passengers, this means each flight is more profitable. And I might remind you that the kind of arguments you're making now were made against the 747 35 years ago, and we all know how groundless they were then.



I've read what was posted, and what I just said IS true.

The plane weighs about 617 tons (1.2 million pounds) when fully loaded. As with all planes, that weight MUST be distributed evenly on the ground, in dead center. And yes, the same thing is true about the 747's weight.

You're not talking to someone who just READS about planes. I've got first-hand info on them from the aircraft mechanics at work.

Also, think about the amount of fuel that's in the craft's wings.
If the plane has to make an emergency landing for any reason right after takeoff, then most of the fuel has to be dumped over water! That could spell trouble for anyone living nearby, as they'll end up inhaling the fumes from the fuel.

[Daquan13]

Dear Daquan13 and iamrobk, (hehe, did I sound corny)

A few US carriers has been involved with the definition of A380 (I wonder what that means, I guess it means they had shown some interest) since 1996, but that was almost 10 years ago. The air travel business has changed a lot since then especially immediately after 9/11 attack. As of today, the only US carriers that have ordered the A380 are FedEx and UPS and for the freight planes only.

http://www.airbus.com/multimediaelements/3302.jpg

As for the rest of the world, especially in the growing Asian population and the explosive business growth between Asia and Europe, A380 does seem to make a pretty good business sense. I don't know if you guys have been to Asian countries, but during my last several visits to Hong Kong and Taiwan, the Boeing 747-400 planes were almost always full and the price was very darn high. Also, Asians prefer airplanes over cars, partly because they don't have as many highways, and partly because not every Asian family owns 3 or more cars like the US. Taking a plane is actually a lot cheaper than owning a car in Taiwan (ONE parking space is leased for 300 US dollars a month from where I used to live.)

Airbus has been working with 50 airports to improve their runways and ternimals, but so far only a few have finished renovation and a few more next year. That's why Virgin Atlantic delays their A380 service to the US because most of our airports are not ready, notably LAX. Anway, I don't think when Boeing 747 was introduced, every airports in the US was ready for it either. These things take time, we will catch up soon, there is not much to be worried about.



No, you didn't sound corny at all.

I would imagine, & according to the dictionary, that the word definition means to define something, make it very clear what is wanted or needed.

So the carriers involved were there to say what they wanted or didn't want for the plane. As in the case of the 777. Eight of the carriers got together & were involved in the design & defining of the plane.

The whole idea was that they were in on the definition of the craft back then. They had explained what they wanted & didn't want. For instance, instead of toilet seats that slammed down, one of them had suggested that the plane's toilets use seats that slowly closed shut when let go. That idea was so that pssengers who are seated next to any of the bathrooms would not be jolted or startled out of their sleep when a toilet seat was let go.

That very same technique was also applied to the overhead stowage bins. Called Auto Assist, you start to close something & then let it go, then it finishes closing on its own. The A380 probably has this feature also.

They also wanted the plane's parts to be easily accessable should a part need to be replaced that's in an area that might be difficult to reach. The list goes on & on, but I think you get the idea.

[iamrobk]

I just read that it would cost most airports anywhere from $100 million to $2 billion to upgrade to handle the A380, and most major airports in the USA have absolutely no interest in upgrading. I also read that the airplane needs a runway of at least 11,000 feet (Philadelphia International's longest is about 10,600 feet, IIRC). If you guys want a source I'll give it to you later.

Also, I don't really think FedEx counts as a carrier, because they're freight, not passenger. I hope I don't sound like I am trying to avoid the issue, I'm just sharing my viewpoint on this.

[The Chemist]

Also, think about the amount of fuel that's in the craft's wings.
If the plane has to make an emergency landing for any reason right after takeoff, then most of the fuel has to be dumped over water! That could spell trouble for anyone living nearby, as they'll end up inhaling the fumes from the fuel.

That's true of any airplane, not just the A380. Boeing planes can't make fuel magically disappear if they need to make an emergency landing soon after takeoff any more than Airbus planes can.

[Fabb]

The super-jumbo of all gambles
Jan 20th 2005 | TOULOUSE
From The Economist print edition

Airbus unveils its double-decker for a new era in aviation

SIR RICHARD BRANSON, founder of Virgin Atlantic, did not need to watch the Martin Scorsese, Leonardo DiCaprio award-winning movie, “The Aviator”, last Sunday to learn how critical the choice of new aircraft is (among other things) to an airline's fortunes. Nevertheless Sir Richard emerged from the film “quite inspired” before flying to Toulouse for the unveiling of his latest choice, the Airbus A380. This is the biggest passenger jet the world has seen, built to carry at least 555 passengers. He has decided, along with 13 other airline bosses (so far), that the A380 is going to make him money.

At a spectacular two-hour show featuring dancers, trapeze artists, fountains and holographic planes “flying” about the giant hangar, 4,500 guests saw the aircraft, with its double-decked body and curving wings, unveiled in gleaming white. But once the show was over and the celebrating politicians gone, the real work continued: to persuade the world's leading airlines that this is the plane to transform air travel, as the original “jumbo”, the Boeing 747, did 35 years ago—and that it is not a commercial dud like Concorde.

http://www.economist.com/images/20050122/CWB305.gif


Like Howard Hughes, the subject of “The Aviator”, whose giant, eight-engined “Spruce Goose” eventually succeeded as Lockheed's Hercules troop carrier, Airbus is taking an enormous gamble on its double-decker, due to make its first test flight by the end of March for entry into service in June 2006. It has cost over €12 billion ($15 billion) to get this far, spread equally between Airbus, its industrial partners and the European governments that have advanced refundable launch loans. Airbus foresees a market for 1,650 super-jumbo aircraft (including freighters) over 20 years. It needs to sell half that to make money.

Those magnificent men

The bosses of the 14 airlines which have already agreed to buy some 149 A380s were in Toulouse to explain their decision. The A380 should cut the cost of carrying one passenger one mile by between 15% and 20%, compared with the 747, the “queen of the skies”. She is now entering her twilight years. Only ten freighter versions have been ordered in the past year, and production is down to about one 747 a month. Airlines that need very big planes have instead opted for the new Airbus, which the Toulouse plant is expected to produce at a rate of four aircraft a month.

Virgin and other carriers such as Singapore Airlines, Lufthansa and Emirates operate long-haul services, frequently using airports, such as London's Heathrow, where there are limited runway slots for take-off and landing. Some airlines on busy long-haul routes fly two 747s almost simultaneously, wing to wing. Putting their combined payload into one more efficient, larger aircraft plainly makes sense.

The A380 will initially be able to carry about 30% more passengers than the 747 in a conventional layout, with 50% more floor space. No wonder Sir Richard talks of adding gyms, bars, beauty parlours, casinos and private beds (“to give you two chances to get lucky”). Less populist, Tim Clark, president of Emirates, which has ordered 45 planes to fulfil its ambitions of establishing Dubai as a new global hub, says that business and first-class passengers will enter through separate doors to an exclusive upper deck. Like passengers on the old ocean liners, they will not have to mix with the cramped masses below.

The promised lower operating costs mean plenty of profit potential for airlines confident that they have enough heavy-traffic routes to fill most of the seats. Chris Avery of J.P. Morgan points out that, thanks to economies of scale and modern technology (the 747 was designed some 40 years ago), the A380 needs only 11% more passengers (323) than does a 747 to break even on a trip. Yet it can carry 232 more than that, from which it can profit. Even the biggest Boeing can cram in only 123 more than its 290-passenger break-even level.

Yet Boeing is convinced that Airbus is making a huge strategic error. Bosses of the Chicago-based company are wont to quote Napoleon on never interfering with your enemy when he is making a great mistake. But such bombast is now wearing thin as orders for the new Airbus roll in. Industry insiders are convinced that, by Easter, Airbus will have landed a Chinese order for the plane, while leading carriers such as Cathay Pacific and British Airways are merely sitting temporarily on the sidelines, waiting for the inevitable teething troubles to be sorted out and for the even bigger versions of the new aircraft expected before long.

Boeing's strongest argument is that the air-travel market is fragmenting. People want to travel direct to their long-haul destinations, not squeeze into huge planes before changing later to smaller ones at crowded hub airports in order to reach their final destination. The success of the 747 was ensured by the fact that its huge wings and fuel tanks allowed it to fly farther than any other plane. But smaller widebody jets half the size of the new Airbus can fly as far as the A380. These planes open up the long-haul market while reducing the airlines' risk, because they need to fill fewer seats to cover the trip cost.

Boeing thinks that there will be a market for barely 400 very large aircraft (ie, bigger than today's jumbos) over the next 20 years. It sought to address this demand with stretched versions of the latest 747s, but has had no takers. On the other hand, Boeing's chief executive, Harry Stonecipher, says that, if there turns out to be a far bigger market than it now expects, Boeing will certainly enter it.

Yet that might prove difficult. Mr Avery asks where Boeing would go to find customers. The long-haul airlines with the greatest need are already buying the new Airbus, and would have little incentive to wait at least three years for a Boeing super-jumbo to emerge. “It really does look like Boeing have missed the boat,” he says.

Airbus, having just beaten Boeing on deliveries for a second year (see chart), is delighted to have broken Boeing's monopoly for really big jets. It can even afford to launch a rival to Boeing's mid-sized 7E7, called the A350, even though the terms of a truce in the battle between Europe and America over government subsidies require it to use its own money for this spoiler. But two things could upset Airbus. In 1992 the Toulouse manufacturer thought it had stolen a huge lead on Boeing with its big A330-A340 widebodies. But Boeing struck back in 1995 with its all-new 777 model, which sold well at Airbus's expense. Airbus had thought its competitor would merely upgrade the 767, an older widebody. This time, another 747 upgrade, allowing up to 450 seats (about 30 more than today's jumbos), might drain off some demand for the new Airbus. The low development costs of a 747 upgrade would mean it could be priced keenly to counter the A380's lower operating costs.

Another potential nightmare for Airbus is that the airlines that have already ordered the new plane may give a false impression of likely long-term demand. What if these pioneers prove to be the bulk of the potential buyers? The new Airbus must also overcome the wariness of travellers about the hassle of getting in and out of such a giant craft (and, presumably, the consequent long queues at immigration). Maybe onboard bars will lure them.

Airbus bosses agree that passengers prefer, by and large, to fly direct. But hub-and-spoke economics combined with a 20% lower cost per passenger are strong grounds for believing that the A380 will become this century's long-haul workhorse, as the 747 was in the last one.

[Stratosphere]

http://www.economist.com/images/20050122/CWB305.gif

Wow, Airbus is still only half of what Boeing was. Boeing really needs to straighten up now though. Being number 1 yourself, how did you get surpassed by your competitor after having merged with the world's 3rd largest aircraft manufacturer (McDonnel Douglas)?:???:

[iamrobk]

Well, it looks like Boeing's biggest drop was from 2001 on.....Doesn't surprise me, I mean, all the US airlines have probably ordered very little airplanes ever since 9-11.....

[vincent]

11000 ft (3352.8 m) for a runway is really short i think (for international airport). I believe the standard for 747 is at least 3500m long.

and there is a report from airbus.com that said no upgrade is needed for the runway. A380 got more wheels than 747, so it spread the pressure.

[Daquan13]

Also, think about the amount of fuel that's in the craft's wings.
If the plane has to make an emergency landing for any reason right after takeoff, then most of the fuel has to be dumped over water! That could spell trouble for anyone living nearby, as they'll end up inhaling the fumes from the fuel.

That's true of any airplane, not just the A380. Boeing planes can't make fuel magically disappear if they need to make an emergency landing soon after takeoff any more than Airbus planes can.



I was speaking mainly about the A-380 because it will carry more fuel than any other plane ever built.

[CTroyMathis]

;)

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4834

[Stratosphere]

It hasn't been asked. Which exterior design do you like the most?

Airbus A380
http://www.airbus.com/multimediaelements/2329.jpg

Boeing NLA
http://ebozz.net/photos/6264.jpg

McDonnel Douglas MD-12
http://ebozz.net/photos/6265.jpg

[Daquan13]

Hard to tell.

But I DO remember the other two designs by Boeing & MD.

And they both bear a somewhat striking resemblence to the A380!!

[Daquan13]

Come on, those pics are ridiculous now.

[Wright Concept]

Airbus has been working with 50 airports to improve their runways and ternimals, but so far only a few have finished renovation and a few more next year. That's why Virgin Atlantic delays their A380 service to the US because most of our airports are not ready, notably LAX. Anway, I don't think when Boeing 747 was introduced, every airports in the US was ready for it either. These things take time, we will catch up soon, there is not much to be worried about.

Hmmm, the main reason the 747 was such a success was the fact that many airports were already going to modernize the airports at the time the 747, DC-10 jumbo jetsa were developing. This is going to be the biggest factor as to which planes airlines will use and how successful the A-380 will be. I see this plane being revolutionary as a cargo hauler rather than a passenger jet.

[vincent]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/01/18/business/airbus.gif

[Rachmaninov]

I personally think the A380 will look better if it's a bit longer, but I doubt it needed the length.
From the data above, it seems that the A380 is about 10% more efficient than the 747-400, in terms of MTOW only. Can anybody give us the density of the fuel so that we can estimate how efficient it is?

[The Chemist]

JP-4 jet fuel has a density of anywhere between 0.751 and 0.802g/mL (751 to 802 kg / m^3). Because jet fuel has no exact set composition and only needs to meet certain specifications, it can have a range of densities between the values I listed.

[vincent]

A380-900 will be longer. It got length of 79m something. (A380-800 got 73m)

[Fabb]

Airbus to get orders for five A380s from Chinese carriers

PARIS : Airbus is set to ink its first orders from Chinese airlines for five A380 superjumbo airplanes on January 28, according to French Transport Minister Gilles de Robien's schedule for the week of January 20-28 states.


"The signing of the contract between Airbus, China Southern and CASC (China Southern and Chinese Aviation) for the purchase of five A380s," it says for the date of Friday January 28.

At the official unveiling of the A380 on Tuesday, Airbus chief executive Noel Forgeard told a press conference that he expected to get an order for the airplane from a Chinese carrier in the coming months.

Although orders have flooded in for the A380, Airbus's success is seen as depending on whether it can interest China, one of the world's biggest operators.

Airbus, which hopes the A380 will enable it to increase its global lead over US rival Boeing, did well last year on the Chinese front, recording firm orders for 58 of its smaller planes, including three from Hong Kong, and letters of intent for 23 more.

- AFP

[iamrobk]

Hmm....I thought the Chinese were going to buy 7E7's?

[JMGarcia]

The A380 and 7E7 don't realy compete with each other. They'll probably buy a small number of A380's and a lot of 7E7's.

[Fabb]

... or A350's maybe.
We'll see.
Anyway, this market is huge.

[iamrobk]

The A380 and 7E7 don't realy compete with each other. They'll probably buy a small number of A380's and a lot of 7E7's.

Thats what I was beginning to think, but I had figured that most airlines would just buy one or the other (since that seems to be what everyone has been doing). Either way, Airbus still needs to sell like 90 more to break even, and that could take over a year or 2.

[Fabb]

That's right.
The A380 is supposed to be profitable by 2008.

[Stratosphere]

The 7E7 is going to compete with the A330/340 family and Boeing's own 777-200 ER/LR. It's kinda a weird that Boeing is developing a new airliner that could potentially compete with their existing models, don't you think?

The 747 Advance will compete with the A380, although I doubt it will be successful in doing that. The 747-400 ER's low sales is a sign of airlines' dwindling interest in a new 747 model. Since launch, Boeing has sold only 6 747-400 ERs (ordered by Qantas Airways) and 15 747-400 ERFs (freighter model).

[vincent]

if not many airline are buying 747-400ER, does it imply that they don't want large plane like 380??

[iamrobk]

if not many airline are buying 747-400ER, does it imply that they don't want large plane like 380??

Interesting though, but in defense of the A380, they may not be buying the 747 simply because they bought/want to bu the A380.

[vincent]

in terms of passenger and range. Boeing 7E7 got about the same thing as the A340-200. Why is Airbus coming up with 350 anyway?

[JMGarcia]

The cost of running a 7E7 is so much less than an A340 that Airbus needs a new plane to compete. 7E7's are a good deal smaller than 777's and don't really compete in the same market.

[Fabb]

January 23, 2005

EDITORIAL
Airbus' Big, Big Bet

LA Times


Airbus' Big, Big Bet


Of all the things we were unaware that we needed right now, Europe's colossal new Airbus A380 airplane is right up there. This 1,200,000-pound monster will pack in you and 799 other people you can't wait to sit among, and theoretically lift the entire neighborhood into the skies for a long, long, long trip somewhere very together for many hours. Won't that be fun?

It's theoretical because this airborne cruise ship won't leave the ground until it's tested in March. But that hasn't kept airlines — none of them U.S. passenger carriers — from ordering 139 of these $250-million machines. Such motorized clouds could bring passing shade to L.A. glide-path communities next year.

The Airbus story sounds like an episode of some "Megastructures" documentary. In summary: Several European countries offered more than $12 billion in financing and subsidies to a bunch of multilingual engineers. That bought a whole lot of wine to fuel late-night brainstorming sessions about what people dislike and fear in planes. Then, they designed an immense human cargo carrier that'll hold a small town of crying babies, talkative strangers and bony elbows on two decks. The lighting will change to ease jet lag adjustments. And don't worry about crowding: The seats will be one whole inch wider.

The last time you flew somewhere, did you wish there were seven times as many shoulder bag-swingers crowding on with three carry-ons each? When LAX and other terminals convert to handle such people precincts, loading will occur on two levels at once, like ship gangways. Row 84, Seat R, anyone?

Built by 18,000 low-bid contractors, the thing is gigantic. An air pump is car-sized. A simultaneous flushing of the vast plumbing system could seed clouds. The wings — Shaq could stand inside one — are made in England and, tides permitting, barged to the Continent. The fuselage is German. The assembly is French, bien sur. It's 239 feet long, with a wingspan of 262 feet, and nearly a half-million pounds heavier than a Boeing 747, which to many eyes is obviously incapable of flying, until it does.

Airbus seeks to lengthen its new global commercial sales lead over Boeing, which sees the future in smaller, efficient craft because maybe 800 folks don't want to fly from Minneapolis to Hibbing, Minn. Airbus' bet is big. It says growing traffic and crowded skies dictate fewer but larger planes, offering spacious first-class beds, lounges, entertainment systems, gyms, even waterfalls, not to be missed during turbulence.

There's no end to possible airborne amenities. By the time we reach Airbus 480, each flight could comprise a human migration, with casinos, IMAX, Starbucks, boutiques, spas, suites, even parking. Variable configurations could cram 1,000 into the A380 now, sufficient for its own flu epidemic. You've got to hand it to those Europeans — they're finally acting like Texans.

I wonder what they mean by that.

[2048]

A giant awakes

Flight International, 18th - 24th Jan 2005

Now the wraps have come off the A380, an intense flight-test schedule awaits the world's biggest airliner before certification next year

Airbus's unveiling of the A380 before 4,500 invited guests at a ceremony at the Jean-Luc Lagardère final assembly line in Toulouse this week is a necessary but potentially frustrating interruption for engineers and test pilots involved in the ongoing process to prepare the giant airliner for flight and service entry.

By the time the first flight-test A380 manufacturer's serial number (MSN) 001 is ready to fly, it will be almost 10 months since structural assembly of the aircraft began on the Toulouse production line in May last year - assuming it takes to the air as scheduled by the end of March. The ensuing time has been taken up by completion, fitting out and verification of the flight-test instrumentation (Flight International, 23-29 November 2004).

Registered F-WWOW, MSN001 is one of four A380s that will be dedicated to the 13-month flight-test and certification programme for the initial Rolls-Royce Trent 900-powered version, the others being MSN002, MSN004 and MSN007. As reported, Airbus has had to complete a series of tests and procedures involving MSN001, MSN002 and the static test airframe "ES" (located adjacent to the A380 line) to clear the aircraft for first flight.

The first two A380s (MSN001 and MSN004) will bear the brunt of the flight-test programme and will be heavily instrumented. They are fitted with 20t (44,100lb) of flight-test instrumentation, plumbed with 335km (210 miles) of electrical cables carrying 70kVA of electricity. The equipment can take 6,000 measurements and monitor 150,000 parameters. Other special equipment includes a trailing cone (for air data gathering) and water ballast system (to simulate payload weights and positions), and a tail bumper with damping actuator. There are also load benches to simulate electrical loads. An escape system will enable the crew to exit the aircraft via a jettisonable cargo door, and parachute to safety. This will be available during initial test flights and early stall trials.

For testing, the flightdeck has a test-flight engineer station from where the aircraft's configuration will be managed throughout every flight. There are three flight-test engineer stations in the cabin - two on the main deck and one on the upper. These stations will be occupied by specialist engineers who will be responsible for flight preparation, evaluation and validation of the specific system or function under test, and the design follow-up.

The bulk of the data analysis and processing will be conducted by engineers monitoring telemetry from the ground at the A380 engineering site in Toulouse. Specialist engineers for the specific systems under test will monitor the flight and data in real time. Support engineers will be tasked with following up issues that arise from flight tests by interfacing with the design office and vendors.

Simulator development

In parallel with the preparations involving actual aircraft, the flight-test team has been working on the development of simulators at the A380 development site adjacent to Toulouse Blagnac airport. Dubbed "Aircraft Zero" when connected to the A380 iron bird, which is co-located on the same site, these simulators have been used to hone the A380's flight-control software to the point where it can be loaded on to the real aircraft for flight test.

"If the real aircraft behaves like the simulator does, then it would be ready to go into service now," jokes Airbus chief test pilot Jacques Rosay. "But it will not be like that when we test the computers on the real aircraft. We will have to adjust for reality."

Airbus revealed late last year that the first flight will be operated by a crew of six. Rosay will be at the controls for the take-off accompanied by senior vice-president flight operations Claude Lelaie. They will share the flying duties, with Rosay expected to handle the take-off, and Lelaie the landing.

Airbus flight-test director Fernando Alonso will occupy the test-flight engineer seat on the flightdeck, while Gerard Desbois, Manfred Birnfeld and Jacky Joye will man the flight-test engineering stations in the cabin.

With most of its outfitting completed, MSN001 left the hangar in early December to undertake outside tests - dubbed Station 18 in the build sequence. Here it has been undergoing a series of fuel and pressurisation tests, including the calibration of the fuel tanks, checking of expansion volumes, refuel rates, and measurement of the unpumpable, undrainable fuel to establish the maximum usable quantity. Surge fuel pressure tests and centre-of-gravity targeting are also being undertaken. Cabin pressurisation tests will comprise air leak and overpressure tests, and a check of the outflow valve/safety valve operation.

Paint job

MSN001's Station 18 phase was recently interrupted for it to be moved into the hangar and painted ahead of this week's "reveal" ceremony - and adorned with Airbus's new logo, which has been kept under wraps. Once these formalities are completed it will be back to Station 18 to complete tests in preparation for flight.

Airbus is conscious that the first flight is the most eagerly awaited European airliner debut since Concorde's almost 36 years ago, and has been at pains to limit media pressure by being unspecific on the timing of the first flight. When Concorde had its formal roll-out in Toulouse in December 1967, the manufacturer was confident that it would be airborne within a few months, but it was 15 months before the aircraft flew.

The official word from Airbus on the A380's first flight has always been "early 2005", with March seen as the realistic target. Rosay says only that the A380 will fly "when we are ready".

The next few weeks should see MSN001 undergoing the final checks and upgrades ahead of leaving the ground. Non-flight-rated items installed during the build process are being replaced, along with changes resulting from ground testing.

After final checks of radios, thrust reversers, oxygen system etc, the aircraft will be pass into the hands of the flight-test division, which will carry out engine runs, taxi and accelerator/stop tests.

Certification process

When the MSN001 does finally take to the air it will mark the start of a 2,100 flying hour test programme for the Trent 900-powered passenger version, which should culminate in certification 13 months later.

Lelaie says that, as with previous first flights of fly-by-wire (FBW) Airbus aircraft, the A380 will initially be operated with the FBW controls in direct law (which unlike "normal law" has no envelope-protection or trim bias for configuration changes). "Generally on the first flight we open up the flight envelope in direct law and fly up to 350kt [650km/h], then decelerate to progressively introduce normal law," he says. "We check it is reacting normally and then accelerate to maximum speed and repeat at high altitude before switching back to direct law for landing."

MSN001 and 004 will each contribute 600h to the flying programme, and their test schedules are broken into six and five phases respectively.

MSN001's first task will be the initial exploration of the flight envelope to confirm VD/MD (the design air speed/Mach number) to enable the A380's aerodynamic configuration to be frozen. Rosay says that these early evaluation flights will take around two months and will enable the test pilots "to get to know" the aircraft as they check out handling qualities. The first A380 will also be tasked with measurement of cruise performance and initial evaluation of systems, such as the autopilot and brakes.

"We will try to quickly identify issues and items requiring upgrade," says Rosay, who expects the flying rate to be high right from the start, as "everything is urgent". Other early trials include external noise identification tests and cockpit noise evaluation.

MSN001's second phase will see it undertaking initial development flights over a six-week period. Structural loads will be evaluated and structural dynamic responses identified during flutter testing. Handling qualities will also be explored, with the aircraft tasked with defining the FBW system's take-off rotation law. MSN001 will carry out the spectacular VMU minimum unstick speed tests at Istres military airbase in southern France, which involves the crew deliberately dragging the aircraft's rear fuselage along the runway with protection provided by an abrasive block. Braking performance will also be analysed and the anti-skid system developed.

Autopilot and autoland development flights will be flown, along with tests to prove the hydraulics, electrics, fuel and air conditioning systems.

The aircraft will then begin a three-month programme of initial certification work. This will include dry air tests; flights with artificial ice shapes on the wing to simulate icing (for both development and certification purposes) ; further development of handling qualities, radio navigation, autopilot and autoland systems; VMCA/VMCL/VMCG (minimum control speed) trials; establishing braking performance for certification and landing performance for the flight manual; and emergency electrical configuration.

Maximum energy

As phase three finishes, MSN001 will be around half-way through its programme and it will be tasked with another of the spectacular tests - the maximum energy acceleration/stop trial. Again, this will be carried out at Istres and involves an aborted take-off at maximum take-off weight and V1 - such trials have previously often ended with burst tyres and wheels on fire, and with the A380-800's 569t (1.25 million lb) maximum take-off weight making it by far the heaviest airliner ever certificated, clearance of this requirement will be a major milestone.

MSN001 should quickly move on to phase five, which involves the certification effort. At this point, natural icing tests will be conducted - if conditions had not been found to enable these to be completed earlier in the programme. Rosay says these tests will probably flown in northern Europe.

The aircraft will also carry out tests to certificate handling qualities and various systems, including autopilot/autoland and the radio navigation equipment.

The 600h to be flown by the other heavily instrumented A380 - MSN004 - will be compressed into 12 months, as it is due to fly a month after MSN001. The second aircraft will be more focused on testing performance and will be tasked with engine calibration at low and high speeds, as well as take-off and climb performance (for the flight manual) and stalls. It will also undertake development of the propulsion system, full-authority digital engine control (FADEC), auxiliary power unit (APU) and fuel system, as well as contributing to the development of the autopilot and autoland.

Hot and high

Midway through its test programme, MSN004 will begin to make its full contribution to the certification programme when it will be used to test brake and antiskid performance, as well as water ingestion tests on a flooded runway at Istres. It will also be used to evaluate acoustic fatigue, engine/APU fire detection and extinguishing, and will undertake the "hot and high" campaign. "This is usually at La Paz in Bolivia," says Rosay. MSN004 will later undergo the cold soak tests - these are usually in Canada or Siberia.

Rosay says that, as part of the evaluation of take-off and landing performance, "abuse cases" will be tested with the A380 being rotated at speeds below VR and approach and landings flown at speeds up to 5kt lower than the correct landing speed (VLS).

Around 10 weeks before type certification is due, MSN001 and MSN004 will begin their final phase, which covers additional certification, such as clearance of further autoland capabilities; an expansion of crosswind operations and 15kt tailwind performance; as well as approval of three engine-ferry flights. "We'll be taking crosswind operations up to something approaching 40kt," says Rosay, who adds that these tests are usually flown at Keflavik in Iceland, as it has two perpendicular runways.

A380 MSN002 - the third to join the programme - will contribute 500h to flight testing and will be the first of two equipped with a representative cabin seating around 510-520 passengers. The aircraft is undergoing ground vibration testing ahead of being repositioned to Hamburg Finkenwerder for the interior installation. These tests enable Airbus to identify frequency and damping responses of the real aircraft structure, and to validate models used for flutter clearance.

MSN002 will start flight testing seven months after the first flight of MSN001, and tests will concentrate on developing the cabin systems such as air distribution and temperature control, cargo compartment ventilation, lighting, public address, noise tests, water and waste, and in-flight entertainment (IFE) - in this case the Thales TopSeries I-5000 system. The aircraft will be equipped with heated passenger dummies to enable the cabin environment to be fully understood. It will also be used to evaluate the cabin under negative g conditions.

Around a month into its test programme, MSN002 will spend two weeks operating the so-called early long flight (ELF) programme, which will comprise four sectors with full passenger loads using staff volunteers. Airbus first adopted the ELF philosophy for the A340-600 programme.

"We'll operate four ELF flights, starting with a 4h sector and finishing with a maximum of 15h," says Rosay. "It enables us to see how the cabin behaves in real conditions and quickly identify any issues, and gives us time to incorporate changes during the test programme."

MSN002 will then spend two weeks undergoing external take-off and landing noise certification at the airbase in Moron near Seville, Spain. Wake vortex trials will also be flown.

The last four months of MSN002's test programme are to be spent on certification duties and final verification of systems. The aircraft will be used to test the cabin in various extreme weather conditions - cold soak as well as hot and humid - and to undergo electromagnetic interference tests. The aircraft will also visit some of the key airports where the A380 will soon be operating to demonstrate compatibility.

The fourth and final aircraft involved in the initial test programme is MSN007. It will join the programme around nine months after first flight and like MSN002 will focus on cabin development. Before it starts flying, it will be equipped with a special 853-seat interior to enable Airbus to complete the evacuation test and certificate the exit limit capacity for the aircraft.

Demonstration flights

MSN007 will incorporate cabin modifications that come out of MSN002's ELF programme, and will also operate customer demonstration flights. The aircraft is to be equipped with the alternative IFE system - Matsushita Avionics Systems' EX2.

Around six weeks before certification is due, MSN007 will be tasked with flying the A380 route-proving programme.

All being well, in little over a year from now, Airbus should be closing on certification of the world's largest airliner, enabling launch customer Singapore Airlines to put the aircraft into revenue service as scheduled in the second quarter of 2006. By then, Airbus will already be turning its attention to the next task - test and certification of the General Electric/Pratt & Whitney Engine Alliance GP7200-powered A380, due towards the end of next year.

MAX KINGSLEY-JONES / TOULOUSE

[2048]

Airbus to alter configuration of A380 freighter for UPS

Flight International, 18 Jan 2005

Manufacturer cites need to develop different versions as one reason for cost overrun

Airbus is working to define a revised version of the A380 freighter for United Parcel Service (UPS) following the US express package carrier's deal for up to 20 aircraft, including options.

The deal calls for 10 firm orders to be delivered between 2009 and 2012, but includes the cancellation of 37 of UPS's 50 outstanding A300-600F orders. It has 40 in service, and is to take seven more this year and a final six in 2006.

Two carriers have already ordered the A380-800 Freighter - FedEx Express with 10 orders and Emirates with two. The former will be the first to receive the aircraft, in 2008.

Airbus chief executive Noël Forgeard says that the need to develop alternative configurations of the A380 freighter was one of the reasons behind the revelation last month that there was a risk that the programme could incur an overrun beyond the $10.7 billion development cost predicted at launch. "We have to deal with two different layouts for the freighter version, which is more expensive," he says.

Airbus executive vice-president programmes Gerard Blanc says that although UPS intends to use the aircraft in the package-carrying role like FedEx, it needs a different internal arrangement that is yet to be defined: "There will be differences in the interface between the cockpit zone and the cargo zone, which is still to be designed."

UPS says it selected the A380 after an evaluation that included Boeing's latest 747 stretch proposal, the 747 Advanced Freighter. The Airbus "was the right fit for our international volume", it says.

However, UPS adds that it is still in talks with Boeing about the 747 as well as the recently launched 777-200LR Freighter for future requirements.

UPS says that the A380 was selected specifically to make the most use of its rights and slots into and out of the fast-growing China market. An engine selection will be made by year-end.

GRAHAM WARWICK / WASHINGTON DC & MAX KINGSLEY-JONES / PARIS

[2048]

Airbus to use 853-seat A380 for escape trial

Flight International, 11 Jan 2005

Airbus will conduct a trial emergency evacuation using the fourth A380 (MSN007) with 853 passengers to certificate the exit limit for the ultra-large aircraft.

The aircraft will be equipped with a special high-density interior during outfitting at its Hamburg Finkenwerder plant to simulate the maximum occupancy of the A380.

The A380 has 16 exit doors, including six on the upper deck that are 7.9m (26ft) above the ground when the aircraft is standing on its landing gear. The slides have been developed by Goodrich.

To comply with regulations, the aircraft has to be evacuated in 90s with half of the doors available. Airbus says it has received certain waivers from the authorities to improve safety for the volunteers, given the height of the upper deck and the number of passengers. These include being able to deploy the slides before the start of the evacuation trial, and not having to conduct the test in darkness.

Once the tests have been completed, the A380 will be reconfigured with a more representative, lower-density layout and used in the route-proving programme towards the end of this year.

MAX KINGSLEY-JONES / TOULOUSE

[2048]

It hasn't been asked. Which exterior design do you like the most?

Airbus A380
http://www.airbus.com/multimediaelements/2329.jpg

Boeing NLA
http://ebozz.net/photos/6264.jpg

McDonnel Douglas MD-12
http://ebozz.net/photos/6265.jpg

I saw another large airliner proposal (I think by Lockheed) with a strange double tail - I'll try to post it.

[MSPtoMKE]

^Also i think Boeing has had proposals for a different version of a very large aircraft that is more recent than the version shown above, and didnt look quite as ugly ;) I think it was a full double decker version of the 747.

[2048]

I haven't seen that one. I remember two proposed 747 stretches though - the -500 and -600. I think the -600 was going to be ~290 feet long.

[Stratosphere]

I saw another large airliner proposal (I think by Lockheed) with a strange double tail - I'll try to post it.
Lockheed's double-tail proposal was a twin-jet air transporter about the size of the An-225, if I'm not mistaken. It wasn't an airliner.

Also i think Boeing has had proposals for a different version of a very large aircraft that is more recent than the version shown above, and didnt look quite as ugly I think it was a full double decker version of the 747.
Since the NLA, Boeing hasn't proposed any full double decker. They were working on streched, re-winged versions of the 747-400, codenamed 747-500X and -600X. They were ultimately canceled in the late 90s.

747-500X and 747-600X (notice the absence of winglets at the wing tips)
http://ebozz.net/photos/8934.jpg

Notice how long the 747-600X is compared to the 747-400.
http://ebozz.net/photos/8935.jpg

Stats:

Capacity in typical 3-class configuration:
747-400: 412 passengers
747-500X: 462 passengers
747-600X: 548 passengers

Range:
747-400: 7230 nm (13,390 km)
747-500X: 8,700 nm (16,100 km)
747-600X: 7,750 nm (14,350 km)

Length:
747-400: 70.66 m (230 ft 10 in)
747-500X: 76 m (249 ft)
747-600X: 84.5 m (277 ft) * would have been the longest airplane ever

Wing Span:
747-400: 64.44 m (211 ft 5 in)
747-500X: 77.7 m (255 ft)
747-600X: 77.7 m (255 ft)

Max Takeoff:
747-400: 394,625 kg (870,000 lb)
747-500X: 528,900 kg (1,166,000 lb)
747-600X: 538,000 kg (1,186,000 lb)

Sorry for going off topic again.:D

[Rachmaninov]

A380 buyer keeps mum about possible luxuries aboard cruise ship of the skies

By JAMES WALLACE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER AEROSPACE REPORTER

Airbus may have taken the wraps off the world's biggest jetliner, but the first airline to operate the A380 remains tight-lipped about how it will use all that space.

Singapore Airlines built a mockup at its training center in Singapore to develop and test new cabin features for the A380 -- it gets the first four planes delivered by Airbus in 2006.


Airbus has billed its A380 as a flying hotel and cruise ship, featuring such items as duty-free shops and in-flight dining areas.
But the few allowed inside the mock-up must sign a non-disclosure agreement. And that includes the carrier's elite frequent fliers who have been brought in to offer their opinions about the A380 cabin innovations.

Airbus has advertised its new double-decker flagship as a cruise ship of the skies, even a flying hotel with duty-free shops, boasting that the design offers nearly 50 percent more passenger space than Boeing's aging 747.

But airlines that have ordered the A380 -- other than possibly Virgin Atlantic -- are not expected to offer pie-in-the-sky luxury that would sap revenue. The airline industry has been there before. Thirty-five years ago, a couple of airlines put piano bars in their new 747s. But later, in an era of deregulation and increased competition, they were replaced with money-making seats.

"This was a battle we fought very hard here at SIA," Yeoh Teng Kwong, senior manager of cabin innovation for Singapore Airlines, said of an internal debate about seat count vs. luxury features on the carrier's A380s. "We have struck a good balance."

Recognized as one of the world's leading airlines for in-flight comfort and amenities, Singapore Airlines will have 490 seats on its A380s. That's 65 fewer than the 555 passengers Airbus says can be accommodated in a typical three-class cabin layout.

"Our A380 product will be a very pleasant surprise to the market," Kwong said, without giving away any secrets.

Emirates will be the second A380 operator next year.

Singapore and Emirates are competitors, so no one at either carrier wants to reveal too much about their respective cabin innovations for the superjumbo.


Airlines flying the A380 are likely to offer luxury features in first class. This is an Airbus concept of first-class seating.
"We can't play around with revenue-earning capability," Emirates President Tim Clark said in an interview last year. "We bought the aircraft on a seat count that saw most of the space occupied. We can't mess around with that."

But he said, without elaboration, that the A380s will have "a lot of additional features that will be a first for the civil aviation industry."

Emirates, which has placed 41 firm orders for the A380 -- by far the most of any customer -- is expected to configure its initial A380s with 480 to 490 seats in three classes, and about 650 seats in two classes.

Emirates, Singapore and other A380 operators will use the A380 upper deck for business and premium seating, with the main deck for economy.

First class on the Emirates A380s, Clark said, will be "more of the same, only better."

On its new long-haul Airbus A340-500s, Emirates provides first-class accommodations that resemble private rooms. "We created cabins within the cabin," Clark said. "You can close the door and sleep in private." First-class passengers phone the galley for meals.


Airlines flying the A380 are likely to offer luxury features in first class. This is an Airbus concept of first-class seating.
"I thought of that," Clark said. "That's what I do in a hotel when I'm hungry. I ring room service."

Qantas, the next airline to receive an A380 after Emirates, revealed some cabin details last week on its Web site. The big Qantas jets, which will operate initially between Los Angeles and Melbourne, Australia, will have 501 seats. Cabin features will include special lounge areas in first, business and economy classes; facilities for business meetings and business presentations; and video on demand, with larger entertainment screens in all seats.

First-class A380 passengers, Qantas said, will have "greater space, comfort and privacy."

Virgin Atlantic was to have been the second airline after Singapore to take delivery of an A380. But it has delayed taking its first plane until 2008.

Last week, when Airbus unveiled the first A380 in a ceremony in Toulouse, France, Virgin's colorful chairman, Richard Branson, told reporters his 380s will have a gym where passengers can work out, as well as a beauty parlor and casino.

That remains to be seen.

Given the danger of unexpected in-flight turbulence, the Federal Aviation Administration could have something to say about gyms and such on A380s that fly into the United States.

And there is also the extra weight.

Virgin delayed taking its A380s in part to give suppliers more time to develop lighter cabin furnishings.

John Leahy, chief commercial officer for Airbus, who has never been shy about extolling the virtues of the A380, acknowledged the weighty issue of too much luxury.

"What annoys me in this industry, and Boeing has the same problem," he said, "is that you fight tooth and nail for every kilo of weight in the airframe, and you do the same thing for every kilo of weight on an engine, and then you congratulate yourself that you got a couple hundred pounds out. Then you see some of these new first-class seats that weigh hundreds of pounds."

Joe Sutter, Boeing's famous engineer who led the design team in the 1960s for Boeing's 747, recalled that Juan Trippe, the chairman of Pan American Airlines, launch customer for the 747, wanted a window in the nose so first-class passengers could see where the plane was going.

Sutter made some calculations and informed Trippe the extra weight would be the equivalent of eliminating 2 1/2 passengers.


In the 1970s, Boeing built a mock-up of what it called the "Tiger Lounge" to show customers what could be done with the huge cabin of its new 747.
There is no nose window on the 747. Nor is there a Tiger Lounge.

Boeing built a full-size mockup of that 747 lounge in the early 1970s, with the furniture in tiger skin, to show customers the possibilities of passenger comfort on its new jumbojet.

Early Boeing ads for the 747 talked about onboard movie theaters, a library, staterooms for passengers and conference rooms for business travelers. Even private lavatories.

Most of that never happened, with the exception of a couple airlines that for a short time had piano bars in the 747's signature "hump" that serves as an upper deck.

Today, the 747-400, the latest version of the plane, can carry about 416 passengers in three classes. Singapore Airlines has configured its 747-400s to seat 378 passengers.

Boeing is considering a 747 Advanced, which would have a longer fuselage and use the more fuel-efficient engines under development for its new midsize jet, the 7E7.

The 747 Advanced would carry about 35 more passengers than the 747-400. It would have room above the main cabin for innovative "sky suites," said Jeff Peace, Boeing's vice president of 747 derivative programs. The suites could be private bunks for sleeping or meeting rooms.

While many international airlines are providing passengers more luxury these days in first and business classes, some are beginning to offer more for economy passengers, too.

Japan's All Nippon Airways, the launch customer for Boeing's 7E7, has configured its new extended range Boeing 777-300ER jets with a four-class cabin. There are 174 seats in economy, and 24 in "super" economy. The supereconomy section has eight-abreast seating, one fewer seat per row than in the standard economy cabin. Passengers pay more for the wider seats and additional legroom, although not as much as a business-class seat would cost.

Kwong, the Singapore Airlines executive for product innovation, said the airline might offer more than one type of economy class on its A380s.

Klaus Brauer, Boeing's highly regarded interior specialist, likes this new focus on the economy cabin.

"Airlines are doing a lot with premium concepts," he said. "But the big breakthrough has to be in economy class. ... I sincerely believe the industry has to go that way."

Tourists who fly economy class generally prefer cheaper fares over comfort. But business travelers in economy want wider seats and more leg room.

"Right now, most business travelers in economy class don't get anything more than those who pay the discount fares," Brauer said.

He is helping lead the Boeing effort to give passengers a new kind of flying experience on the 7E7, due to enter service with All Nippon in 2008.

The 7E7 windows will be about 40 percent bigger than those on passengers jets today. Instead of pull down shades, the windows can be darkened electronically.

Fluorescent lighting will be gone. The 7E7 cabin will have light-emitting diodes, or LEDS. It will be more pleasing and natural and can be changed to provide different "moods."

Emirates has mood lighting on its A340-500s jets. Virgin has this feature in its 747 premium cabins.

At the opposite end of the luxury spectrum is what All Nippon and Japan Airlines have done to a few of their 747-400s for high-density domestic routes in Japan.

They carry nearly 600 passengers in one class.

The A380 could seat up to 880 passengers in one class, according to Airbus.

So far, no airline that has ordered the jet has indicated it would consider this kind of cattle-car layout.

But Emirates and Virgin are pressing Airbus to develop a stretched version of the A380 that would seat about 140 more passengers than the planes they have ordered.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20050124/a380x.jpg
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20050124/a380morex.jpg
^ What A380 can do.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20050124/LDlounge.jpg
^What the 747 had done in the 70s

[Swede]

Notice how long the 747-600X is compared to the 747-400.
http://ebozz.net/photos/8935.jpg

Sheez, that one looong plane.
I like it! :)

[Daquan13]

I remember the proposed 747-600X that Boeing was going to develope.

Too bad that it didn't. It said that the airlines supposedly did not cozy up to the idea too well & that the need for such a plane had diminished substantially.

The plane could have had a fighting chance to compete with the A-380.

Incidently, Boeing did NOT just completely give up the idea altogether. It just merely more or less put the proposal on the back burner for now. It still plans to emerge again sometime in the future with a proposed strecthed version of the Model 747 when the time is right.

[Rachmaninov]

From some websites, they say that A380 is about 15-20% more efficient than 747-400, but what I have calculated using data found in some websites told me that A380 is only 2.5% more efficient.

[Zerton]

oh my god that 747 is long.

[Fabb]

From some websites, they say that A380 is about 15-20% more efficient than 747-400, but what I have calculated using data found in some websites told me that A380 is only 2.5% more efficient.

What kind of data did you use ?

[Daquan13]

Reading the vital statistics & technical specs of the A-380, I've also come to that conclusion myself.

Because the A380 has only a small significance of range in terms of nautical miles over the 747-400, even though it's been designed to carry about 135 or so more passengers in a three-class layout.

[vincent]

is that 2.5% total fuel saving?? or 2.5% of fuel saving/ seat/ mile??
show us how to get 2.5%

[Daquan13]

Go back a page or two & read the specs.

Or try to visit www.airbusindustrie.com .

[vincent]

this?? i believe i read every post in this thread. It seems the calculation of that 3% is not mentioned anywhere.

http://www.airchive.com/Memorabilia/Airbus/*A380-6.jpg

[Daquan13]

I thought that you were looking for 2.5, not 3.

[Rachmaninov]

That was fuel saving per unit weight per unit distance, not operating cost saving.

[Rachmaninov]

And there is this interesting fact -
747-400ER: MTOW = 412770kg (airliners.net)
Range = 14205km
operating weight = 181255kg = weight of airplane excluding fuel if flown empty
412770-181255 = 231515kg, i.e. it can bring 231515kg of cargo, people and fuel, using 63705 gallons of fuel for 14205km = 0.019 gallons per tonne per km
(without taking account of losing weight of the plane and initial weight of fuel, which is inaccurate but gives us a vague idea)

A380-800: MTOW = 590000kg (airliners.net)
Range = 14800km
operating weight = 277000kg (larholst.info) = weight of airplane excluding fuel if flown empty
590000-277000 = 313000kg, i.e. it can bring 313000kg of cargo, people and fuel, using 81890 gallons of fuel for 14800km= 0.021 gallons per tonne per km ?????!!!!

I don't understand.

[Daquan13]

I'm sorry, I mistakingly gave a wrong website address for Airbus Industrie.

When I tried to go there myself, It came up a bogus bullcrap website that had absolutely nothing to do with the company at all!!

Does anyone know the company's website address? I think that anyone interested in knowing all of the specs & other info on the A-380 can find out there.

[Rachmaninov]

I can't find many facts from their site. It's simply www.airbus.com

[Daquan13]

Sorry, but THAT didn't help either.

But alas!!!, I found out just how to do it!! Easy as pie.

Just type the words; airbus industrie in your address bar at the top of your screen.

An MSN website directory page should download, giving you different types of Airbus Industrie websites to go to.

Click on the "Airbus industire History" words & it will take you to the History section of Airbus Industrie.

Once there, just click on the "Home" page of the company. You will then be taken to the main page.

Once there, you will have struck gold!! For, on the main page, there is a big article on the revealing of the A-380!!!

It should then tell you what all you want to know about the plane.
Good luck!!

PS: Save the home page by adding it to your Favorites folder. That way, you'll NEVER have to worry about losing it!!

[vincent]

And there is this interesting fact -
747-400ER: MTOW = 412770kg (airliners.net)
Range = 14205km
operating weight = 181255kg = weight of airplane excluding fuel if flown empty
412770-181255 = 231515kg, i.e. it can bring 231515kg of cargo, people and fuel, using 63705 gallons of fuel for 14205km = 0.019 gallons per tonne per km
(without taking account of losing weight of the plane and initial weight of fuel, which is inaccurate but gives us a vague idea)

A380-800: MTOW = 590000kg (airliners.net)
Range = 14800km
operating weight = 277000kg (larholst.info) = weight of airplane excluding fuel if flown empty
590000-277000 = 313000kg, i.e. it can bring 313000kg of cargo, people and fuel, using 81890 gallons of fuel for 14800km= 0.021 gallons per tonne per km ?????!!!!

I don't understand.

i think even all these calculation are true. This is only expenditure of the plane. Income of the plane should be considered to calculate profit. A380 can carry a lot of passenger and cargo to make profit.

[Rachmaninov]

http://ebozz.net/photos/8935.jpg


By the way (sorry for getting off the topic) ever noticed that the inner and outer engines differ from each other??

[Daquan13]

Looks like 777/A380-style engines on the -600X model.

[Stratosphere]

By the way (sorry for getting off the topic) ever noticed that the inner and outer engines differ from each other??
The 747-500X was supposed to be powered by 68,000-70,000lb thrust class General Electric/Pratt & Whitney GP7000 or Rolls-Royce Trent 976 engines. Same types of engines for the 747-600X, except that they were supposed to be in the 76,000-78,000lb thrust class.

[Rachmaninov]

How many orders of the A380 up till now have been placed?

[iamrobk]

Something like 110, and they need to seel like 200 to break even (for comparison, the 7E7 has sold like 125, and needs to sell like 150 to break even.

[Daquan13]

I read that there were at least 135 A380's ordered.

Or was it 165?

[Fabb]

The chinese orders will be official later in the week.

[JiminyCricket II]

Something like 110, and they need to seel like 200 to break even (for comparison, the 7E7 has sold like 125, and needs to sell like 150 to break even.

The 7E7 is about to surpass 200 orders. Take a look at the 7E7 thread.

[iamrobk]

Something like 110, and they need to seel like 200 to break even (for comparison, the 7E7 has sold like 125, and needs to sell like 150 to break even.

The 7E7 is about to surpass 200 orders. Take a look at the 7E7 thread.

So far, 126 orders of the 7E7 has been placed. In chronological order (from the beginning), they are:

Directly from the 7E7 thread. And yes, I know about the Chinese airlines ordering them, but there is no official agreement yet, so I didn't add them tot he total.;)

[JiminyCricket II]

Well, it will be official tomorrow.

[Stratosphere]

Total firm orders (from 13 customers) for the A380 currently stands at 139.

Link (http://www.airbus.com/media/orders_n_deliveries.asp)

[vincent]

it was 149 order (including the UPS order)

[Daquan13]

Fed Ex has ordered some of them also.

[vincent]

http://www.airbus.com/dynamic/media/press_releases.asp#1663

[Daquan13]

Don't believe me, huh?

[Rachmaninov]

New super plane is a Noisy beast?

The world's largest passenger plane was unveiled in an elaborate ceremony in France last week as Hounslow's anti-air expansion campaigners warned of its negative impact in their battle against noise.

The Airbus A380 is a twin-deck aircraft, which can carry 555 people, 50 per cent more than the Boeing 747 jumbo, and will be equipped with gyms, gaming areas and private sleeping accommodation.

While it has been hailed as the future of aviation, anti-noise campaigners have warned of its impact on Hounslow's environment.

The plane's huge dimensions it has a 260ft wingspan mean that it will produce slightly less noise and pollution per passenger. As a result Airbus is claiming it is environmentally friendly.

However, West London Friends of the Earth have challenged this conclusion, saying that it will still produce more noise and pollution than most other planes, and that this will increase its impact on the areas next to Heathrow.

The first test flight of the A380 will take place in April, with a full fleet scheduled to serve passengers in 2006.

Singapore Airlines (SIA) has already announced that the A380 will fly between London, Singapore and Sydney in the second quarter of next year.

Raja Segran, SIA UK general manager, said: "With its very large capacity and long flying range, the A380 is ideal for high-density long haul routes where airport gate and slot congestion make it difficult for us to add more services using smaller-capacity aircraft.

"London is one of the world's premier aviation centres and an ideal choice for the launch route.

"As the A380's launch carrier we are committed to setting new standards of premium air travel and putting the romance back into air travel."

The new fleet of aircraft has been heavily criticised by anti-noise campaigners Hacan over concerns on the environmental impact for residents near Heathrow.

John Stewart, chairman of Hacan ClearSkies, said: "Behind the glamour and glitz of the launch ceremony is the reality for residents.

"This plane will be one of the noisiest beasts in the sky. It is quite ridiculous for Airbus to try and imply it will be a quiet plane just because it is quieter than a 747.

"The fact is that the A380 just meets the international noise standards for new planes. That means, over the coming years, it will be one of the noisiest planes in the sky."

(Source: http://www.stainesguardian.co.uk/news/localnews/display.var.565251.0.new_super_plane_is_a_noisy_beast.php)

[iamrobk]

Wow. If these environmentalists manage to stop the A380 from flying in and out of London, that would seriously screw over Airbus.....GO ENVIRONMENTALISTS! lol

[vincent]

what the hell? they knew 747 is more noisy than 380, and they go protest against Airbus instead of boeing??? how "logic" do these people get?

[Daquan13]

vincent,

I work at Logan Int'l Airport in Boston, & I've seen and heard the
747 take off & land many, many, many times.

I found it to be no more noisier that any other modern airliner.
It IS quiet. And I've never before heard anyone else say that it's noisy.

[vincent]

you should send an email to those people and tell them 380 is more quiet than a already very quiet plane.

[Daquan13]

I'll let Mother Nature take her own course.

Time will tell if this plane is going to be a winner or a flop.

[Fabb]

However, West London Friends of the Earth have challenged this conclusion, saying that it will still produce more noise and pollution than most other planes, and that this will increase its impact on the areas next to Heathrow.

Can't they just be glad that they got rid of Concorde ?

Clearly, the A380 will be environmentally friendly.

[Fabb]

Airbus and Boeing in dogfight over key market

Benjamin Morgan
January 31, 2005


China's purchases of more than US$11 billion (HK$85.8 billion) worth of Airbus and Boeing jets last week highlights the increasing importance of the Chinese aviation market as the two rivals battle for supremacy of the skies.

On Thursday flag carrier Air China agreed to a long-rumored deal to buy 20 A330-200 aircraft from Airbus worth US$2.86 billion, prompting French Transport Minister Gilles de Robien to call it a ``political victory.''

Celebrations at Airbus were shortlived, however, as US-based Boeing trumped its European foe with its own multibillion-dollar deal to sell its new fuel-efficient 787 Dreamliner to six Chinese airlines.

Boeing, which formally renamed the jet the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, signed Friday a preliminary agreement in Washington with Chinese officials for 60 aircraft worth US$7.2 billion based on catalog prices.

Air China, China Eastern Airlines, China Southern Airlines, Hainan Airlines, Shanghai Airlines and Xiamen Airlines will have at least one of the new 200-plus seaters by the 2008 Beijing Olympics, the company said.

``The 787's advantages in efficiency, economics, environmental performance and passenger comfort are perfectly matched for China's growing, world-class aviation system,'' said Alan Mulally, president and chief executive of Boeing Commercial Airplanes.

Not to be outdone, Airbus too signed another breakthrough deal Friday, this time for its new giant A380 to be delivered to China Southern Airlines, one of the country's top three carriers. At list price, the order for five of the 555-seater superjumbos, the first sold in China, tops US$1.4 billion in a deal Airbus parent European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company has been waiting to sign for months.

Analysts said the see-saw announcements underscore the high-flying stakes between Chicago-based Boeing and its larger rival as they maneuver for orders in China, where annual economic growth of more than 9 percent has ramped up demand for air travel. ``The competition between the two manufacturers is very intense,'' said Li Lei, an airlines analyst at Huaxia Securities. With both manufacturers locked in a global dogfight for sales of their new jets, China, which is expected to build up a fleet of 2,800 planes over the next 20 years and become the world's second-largest commercial aviation market after the United States, is a key battleground.

``In the longer term, China is going to be a very big market. There's going to be demand for a lot of different types of aircraft,'' JPMorgan analyst Peter Negline said.

Boeing has more than a 60 percent market share in China but has lost ground over the past decade to Airbus, which aims to raise the share of its jets in the Chinese fleet from around 25 percent to 50 percent in the near future.

``Currently, Airbus is developing more quickly in China than Boeing,'' Li said. ``But I think that the domination of Boeing will not change in the short run.'' Last year Airbus soared toward its goal, outpacing its US rival in China with orders for 58 aircraft, but Boeing's newest agreement bodes well for the company as it seeks to overcome disappointing sales of the 787.

``The 787 is an aircraft that will arguably fit very well into the operating fleets of a number of the airlines in China,'' Negline said.

That would be good news for Boeing which last year fell well short of its goal of getting 200 firm orders worldwide for the Dreamliner by the end of 2004. It managed only 56, with a further 126 declarations of intent.

Airbus, in the meantime, including deliveries to China Southern, has a total 154 global orders for its A380.

But to continue winning orders in China both manufacturers will also have to navigate the fickle winds of Sino-European and Sino-American politics, analysts said. ``In China, plane purchases are not decided only by airline companies, it depends on the willingness of the government,'' Li said.AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE


Copyright 2005, The Standard

[Daquan13]

Oh well,

Looks as though Boeing is definitely gtetting back in the race to beat Airbus.

The 787 has surpassed the A-380 in sales so far.

[vincent]

if you are talking about the sales relative to how long the program has started, then yes. If not, then no.

[Daquan13]

It IS relative to how long it started, but I'm willing to bet that the 787 will get more sales than the A-380.

[mattropolis]

I bet if it was Boeing building the double deck super jumbo you Boeing homers would be all over it like a horny dog.

Since the 787 is roughly half the size of a A380, maybe we should count 1 A380 equal to 2 787's. I agree that there will be probably more 787's sold since it is a smaller plane. Both airlines will probably be successful in their own way.

I find it odd that some people want so badly for Airbus to fail.

[Daquan13]

Never once did I ever say that I want Airbus to fail.

IMO, they just seem to think that they are better than Boeing, when Boeing has been around much longer, so I would definitely
believe that Boeing has the edge.

And I'm sure that Boeing feels the same about them.

[philip]

So if I read it correctly, Airbus has sold airplanes this year that's worth a total of $ 4.26 billion to China while Boeing made a $7.2 billion deal with China.

I understand that A380 is almost twice the size of Boeing 787 so we could count A380 as 2 airplanes. But the bottom line is still money, and Boeing seems to have made a lot more revenue (70% more) than Airbus. It's like one person is selling bigger apples and the other is selling smaller ones, but the bottom line is how much money you make, the profit. Although I don't know the cost of building these airplanes, but since Boeing made more revenue, supposedly it should make more profit. I guess we will never find out.

Anyway, not to lose faith in the A380 project, I love that airplane and I will definitely ride it when I get a chance. Even though China has 1.2 billion poeple, not everyone can afford to fly a plane right now, so the real demand for A380 in China is probably 15 years in the future but not very big right now. I am not saying this based on nothing, I think the 60 orders for Boeing 787 and only 5 orders for A380 speaks for itself.

But don't worry, the Arabian nations will come to the rescue for French/German technologies, as always.

[Rachmaninov]

China has 1.3 billion people recently. Although I don't really like Airbus, I am still kinda interested in the behemoth and wanna hv a try and ride on it.

[Fabb]

But don't worry, the Arabian nations will come to the rescue for French/German technologies, as always.

I'm not sure I get the message.