[Daquan13]

Not trying to get off topic, but yesterday afternoon just after 1600, an Airbus A-340 jetliner belonging to Air France, crash-landed at Pearsons Int'l Airport in Toronto, Canada.

Miraculously, all of the 299 pasengers & crew were able to get out with only 12 or so minor injuries. Weather is the suspected culprit.

Passengers said that the plane was coming in a bit too high over the runway, didn't have enough room to stop, overshot the runway and ended up in a ravine some 200 meters past the runway. Everyone got out before the plane caught fire.

Not sure yet how this crash will reflect on Airbus Industrie and its newest model, the A380 yet.

[Stratosphere]

It might have been human error.

[John F]

I knew someone was going to point to the incident in Toronto...

I don't know if the industry reacts to incidents like I've read in a work of fiction (Airframe) but if they do there will be a negative fallout to Airbus no matter what.

[Daquan13]

(Edit)

[Daquan13]

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[Daquan13]

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[Daquan13]

(Edit)

[Daquan13]

This may or may not be a deciding factor.

Just thought that some members would like to know about the incident. but at least all of the passengers & crew were able to get out safely & walk away.

[banned]

I don't think i've ever seen a quintuplicate post. (Is that even the right word?)

[The Chemist]

Not trying to get off topic, but yesterday afternoon just after 1600, an Airbus A-340 jetliner belonging to Air France, crash-landed at Pearsons Int'l Airport in Toronto, Canada.

Miraculously, all of the 299 pasengers & crew were able to get out with only 12 or so minor injuries. Weather is the suspected culprit.

Passengers said that the plane was coming in a bit too high over the runway, didn't have enough room to stop, overshot the runway and ended up in a ravine some 200 meters past the runway. Everyone got out before the plane caught fire.

Not sure yet how this crash will reflect on Airbus Industrie and its newest model, the A380 yet.

It's quite unlikely the make of the aircraft had any effect on the crash at Pearson. If it had been a 777 with the same pilots, I'd be very surprised if the outcome would have been any different, judging from the information that we have about the crash.

[MSPtoMKE]

This may or may not be a deciding factor.

Just thought that some members would like to know about the incident. but at least all of the passengers & crew were able to get out safely & walk away.

x4...


Wow! that is worthy of being enshrined in the archives!

[Daquan13]

I don't think i've ever seen a quintuplicate post. (Is that even the right word?)



The forum was running awefully damn slow that morning.
Hence I kept left-clicking the mouse to post.

[Fabb]

Singapore Air claim over A380 delay

Tuesday, August 9, 2005

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/TRAVEL/08/09/singapore.airbus.reut/story.a380.jpg

FRANKFURT, Germany (Reuters) -- Singapore Airlines Ltd , which is aiming to be the first passenger carrier to use the Airbus A380, has criticised delays in the plane's development and warned that it is entitled to compensation, according to a German magazine.

"Airbus took a long time to admit that the A380 programme was lagging behind schedule," the group's head Choon Seng Chew told the magazine Focus, according to a preview of a report that was published on Monday. "I wish they had been more honest about it."

"The delay has wrecked our capacity planning," he said, adding that his group was entitled to damages under the terms of the contract.

"It is like a taxi journey. The longer you drive, the more expensive it becomes. It will become more expensive for Airbus with every further month of delay."

The A380, being built by EADS daughter Airbus, is the biggest passenger jet in the world.

In June, Airbus said delivery of the jet would be delayed by up to half a year because of technical problems.

Choong Seng Chew said that the aircraft would now be delivered in late November 2006 instead of March.

Copyright 2005 Reuters.

[Daquan13]

Singapore Air claim over A380 delay

Tuesday, August 9, 2005

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/TRAVEL/08/09/singapore.airbus.reut/story.a380.jpg

FRANKFURT, Germany (Reuters) -- Singapore Airlines Ltd , which is aiming to be the first passenger carrier to use the Airbus A380, has criticised delays in the plane's development and warned that it is entitled to compensation, according to a German magazine.

"Airbus took a long time to admit that the A380 programme was lagging behind schedule," the group's head Choon Seng Chew told the magazine Focus, according to a preview of a report that was published on Monday. "I wish they had been more honest about it."

"The delay has wrecked our capacity planning," he said, adding that his group was entitled to damages under the terms of the contract.

"It is like a taxi journey. The longer you drive, the more expensive it becomes. It will become more expensive for Airbus with every further month of delay."

The A380, being built by EADS daughter Airbus, is the biggest passenger jet in the world.

In June, Airbus said delivery of the jet would be delayed by up to half a year because of technical problems.

Choong Seng Chew said that the aircraft would now be delivered in late November 2006 instead of March.

Copyright 2005 Reuters.



Emirates & Quantas are also seeking damages form the delay.

If this keeps up, then other carriers may also follow suit, sending Airbus Industrie into a tailspin.

[Taxidermista]

Talking about front windows as the "plane face" I would like to see them on the upper level instead. What do you think?

http://www.taxidermista.net/fotos/380arriba.jpg

http://www.taxidermista.net/fotos/380abajo.jpg

[Daquan13]

The location of the windshield in the top pic makes the plane look somewhat like the 747.

[Fabb]

http://www.eitb24.com/getpic.php?idfoto=133969

The superjumbo is two-story high and can hold at least 555 passengers
Tens of thousands of people gathered to watch the world's biggest passenger aeroplane land for the first time in Germany on Saturday.

The Airbus A380 circled above Hamburg for about 20 minutes before descending.

The superjumbo is two-story high and can hold at least 555 passengers and is wider than its competitor, the Boeing 747.

Its the only A380 built so far - but the 540 ton plane already has 259 orders from 16 customers.

The plane is expected to begin commercial flights in 2006 and has a predicted flight range of 15-thousand kilometres (9,320.5 miles).

[Daquan13]

If this is the only plane built, what happened to the others?

There are supposed to be more being made, especially a few more to join this plane in the flight testing. What's taking then so long?

[The Chemist]

The second plane is nearly ready - it's supposed to fly in October. It was being painted last week.

[Daquan13]

Thanks.

But they just seem awefully slow in getting the planes made.

[twoNeurons]

The location of the windshield in the top pic makes the plane look somewhat like the 747.

the top pic looked like a big bird, the second looks like a beluga whale.

http://www.fundacioncac.es/archivos/mediateca/med2004910125643o-1211dig.jpg

[Daquan13]

The location of the windshield in the top pic makes the plane look somewhat like the 747.

the top pic looked like a big bird, the second looks like a beluga whale.

http://www.fundacioncac.es/archivos/mediateca/med2004910125643o-1211dig.jpg



That just about looks like the front of the plane.:yes:

[tayser]

Click: http://www.flightlevel350.com/search_videos.php?detail=search&where=airplane&sort=datetime&order=desc&date=0&keyword=A380

[Stratosphere]

But "Beluga" is the nickname of another Airbus airplane.

http://karsten.thiee.free.fr/44/Beluga%20A300-600%20Airbus%20100.jpg

http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/airshow03/zeltweg/z11beluga.jpg

[Daquan13]

Yeah, that one looks even more like the fish in the pic above!

I remember that plane very well. It replaces the Super Guppy which had four propeller engines. Looks like the Beluga is what it was named after.

[MistyMountainHop]

Yeah, that one looks even more like the fish in the pic above!

A beluga is a whale, not a fish. :haha:

[Daquan13]

A beluga whale swims like a fish, doesn't it?

But I'm not goiing to get into this, since it would be off topic if we
did.

[The Chemist]

The scary thing is, the wings for the A380, which are built in Britain, are too big to fit in the Super Transporter. So they have to be transported to Toulouse by barge and by truck.

I think Airbus needs a bigger air transporter, considering how many orders they already have for the A380 and how impractical it must be to transport the wings on the ground rather than in the air.

[Daquan13]

The huge fuselage sections are also barged in part of the way from another location, then they are slowly transported on a wide-load flatbead through the narrow streets of a small village at night during the wee hours so as not to disrupt regular traffic through the village.

It's a long slow dragged out process. This might explain why the airlines that ordered the plane were told of the six-month delay in getting everyone's first plane delivered.

There is no cargo plane large enough that could fly those monster parts, which means that they all must be slowly shipped by land & sea. What a pain in the ass that must be?

[Daquan13]

The Airbus A-380 will star in a new movie about a missing passenger who supposedly boaded the plane but she is nowhere to be found on it.

Her mother becomes very frantic and demands that the captain try to locate the little girl.

Called "Flight Plan", the film is soon to be released in theaters nationwide, around September 30. I saw the preview on telvision. It's rated PG-13.

I somehow knew that it wouldn't take long before this plane would be featured in a major film.

[MistyMountainHop]

The Airbus A-380 will be faetured in a new movie about a missing passenger who supposedly boaded the plane but is nowhere to be found.

Called Flight Plan, the film is soon to be released in theaters nationwide. I saw the preview on telvision. It's rated PG-13.

I somehow knew that it wouldn't take long before this plane would be featured in a major film.

I wonder how it will affect opinions of the plane. At least it doesn't involve a crash...

The plane in the movie is somewhat different from the A380 (more streamlined, flight deck on top level, etc.) and is called an E-474. I guess the name comes from a reversal of 747.

[Daquan13]

And also, hopefully, no one playing hijackers or terrorists are in it either.

[Fabb]

Fatigue testing on the A380 started two months ahead of schedule today as part of the aircraft's certification programme.

The tests are conducted by IABG at jointly owned IABG and IMA's test laboratory in Dresden. They will artificially recreate 47,500 flight cycles, which corresponds to 25 years of service life. It will help study how the aircraft responds to various stresses over a long period of time and during different stages of its operations, such as taxiing on the runway, take-off, cruising and landing.

To obtain type certification, the A380 must attain 5,000 fatigue flight cycles. A full-scale A380 airframe is being used at a purpose-built hangar in Dresden, Germany for the 26 months the tests are expected to last, which is more than what is needed for certification.

During these tests, the aircraft will be pushed to its limits, with required changes and adaptations - if any - made to its design while in production, so it is always improved. Fatigue testing will simulate about 900 test flights a week. This means that a 16-hour flight can be simulated in just 11 minutes.

Charles Champion, Chief Operating Officer and Head of the A380 Programme, said that yet another significant A380 milestone had been achieved.

He said: "These tests are an important marker on the road to A380 type certification. They are commencing 2.5 months in advance of the former baseline planning, showing the high degree of commitment from everyone at Airbus in relation to this ambitious and innovative programme. This will allow much more testing to be performed before entry into service to the benefit of our customers."

To recreate the various stresses the aircraft will be under, a combination of loads will be put on the airframe and will be activated by 184 computer-operated hydraulic jacks. A special 1,800-tonne test rig with load introduction – known as "whiffle trees" - was built to carry out these tests in Dresden, Germany. Pneumatic loading facilities will also be used to pressurise the cabin. The pressure used, 0.6 bar, is similar to that used on board passenger flights.

Airbus press release 1 September 2005

[Daquan13]

The Airbus A-380 will be faetured in a new movie about a missing passenger who supposedly boaded the plane but is nowhere to be found.

Called Flight Plan, the film is soon to be released in theaters nationwide. I saw the preview on telvision. It's rated PG-13.

I somehow knew that it wouldn't take long before this plane would be featured in a major film.

I wonder how it will affect opinions of the plane. At least it doesn't involve a crash...

The plane in the movie is somewhat different from the A380 (more streamlined, flight deck on top level, etc.) and is called an E-474. I guess the name comes from a reversal of 747.



You're right, it IS the gov't or military version of the 747, I think for the U. S. Air Force.

[Stratosphere]

http://www.techno-science.net/illustration/Aero/A380/mini-A380_1.jpg

http://www.techno-science.net/illustration/Aero/A380/mini-A380_2.jpg

http://techno-science.net/illustration/Aero/A380/Essais/Premier-vol-2.jpg

Airbus' early concept of horizontal double cylinders
http://www.techno-science.net/illustration/Aero/A380/Projets/mini-p2.jpg

Aérospatiale ASX 600 concept (Aérospatiale = French member of the Airbus consortium)
http://www.techno-science.net/illustration/Aero/A380/Projets/ASX600.jpg

Airbus A2000 concept
http://www.techno-science.net/illustration/Aero/A380/Projets/mini-A2000.jpg

A Boeing Very Large Airplane concept
http://www.techno-science.net/illustration/Aero/A380/Projets/mini-B787.jpg

McDonnell Douglas MD 12 concept
http://www.techno-science.net/illustration/Aero/A380/Projets/mini-MD12.jpg

[Stratosphere]

Boeing NLA concept (NLA = New Large Airplane)
http://images5.theimagehosting.com/Boeing_NLA.JPG

[Daquan13]

The plane in the fourth pic looks quite similar to one that McDonnell Douglas had toyed around with years back in the mid '70's but was going to have six engines.

[mthq]

Isn't the double deck Boeing the original concept before they came up with the 747?

[Daquan13]

It was, but it was going to to be a double-decked mid-winged model, meaning that the wing was going to be placed between the two floors.

[tayser]

oldish news, but great pics :haha:

http://events.airbus.com/A380/default1.aspx

30 August 2005
MELBOURNE ON TRACK TO RECEIVE A380

Second largest airport in Australia, Melbourne is getting ready for the A380.

Melbourne Airport is fast on the way to becoming Australia’s first A380-ready airport. Work on adapting its main runway and creating larger aircraft stand-off parking bays is already complete, while a project that will expand the airport’s international terminal is progressing to schedule.

The improvement work at the airport are being undertaken both to accommodate the A380 and to cater for growing numbers of passengers. Formal A380-readiness is expected in October with the installation of a new two-level airbridge in the international terminal, with the remainder of the expansion work expected to be complete by February 2006.

The runway project, which involved broadening the north – south runway by 15 metres to provide improved jet blast protection, was completed in May. The international terminal’s two new stand-off aircraft parking bays, completed in April, are designed to accept two A380s or four smaller aircraft at any one time. In addition, the airport is installing two new gates with dual airbridges, designed to enable passengers to board and disembark the A380 from both its decks. Each airbridge is able to accept one A380 or two smaller aircraft.

Melbourne Airport, Australia’s second largest, welcomes millions of tourists a year. The airport has been one of the A380’s earliest and strongest supporters in Australia and describes it as ‘the next big event in the history of aviation’.

http://events.airbus.com/A380/Images/MME/3523.JPG

Qantas Chairwoman cuts the ribbon on the reopening on N-S

http://events.airbus.com/A380/Images/MME/3525.JPG

hello.

http://events.airbus.com/A380/Images/MME/3527.JPG

wont be boeing territory for much longer!

[Fabb]

Melbourne Airport, Australia’s second largest, welcomes millions of tourists a year.

Naturally.
I'm one of them !

The airport has been one of the A380’s earliest and strongest supporters in Australia and describes it as ‘the next big event in the history of aviation’.

That's the spirit.
Go Melbourne !

[Stratosphere]

Some nice A380 pics

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/826228.jpeg

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/826230.jpeg

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/847669.jpeg

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/860367.jpeg

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/862492.jpeg

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/862788.jpeg

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/862789.jpeg

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/863012.jpeg

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/863718.jpeg

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/865253.jpeg

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/872214.jpeg

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/923805.jpeg

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/916854.jpeg

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/894447.jpeg

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/904539.jpeg

[Daquan13]

Great pics, Stratosphere!

I never knew that the main landing gear has such a strange fold
into the wings and body. The four-wheel bogies retract the normal way, but the six-wheel bogies retract different.
Sort of like an elevator.

[tayser]

god damn I hope Qantas are flying these by the time I want to come home from the UK.

[STR]

It was, but it was going to to be a double-decked mid-winged model, meaning that the wing was going to be placed between the two floors.

No. The double-deck 747, would have had the same low-mounted wing as the final version. They didn't pursue it due to the difficult of arranging emergency exits over the wings. Even the A380 will need a waiver for this as the upper floor has no exits over the wings, which violates FAA statutes requiring exits every X number of seat rows.

It would also have been very heavy for its size, much like the A380's bloated million pound weight. In addition, it was deemed that the extra capacity was uneeded.

[STR]

Anyone else hear about this? Even if this guy's concerns are unfounded, it's awful how AI went after this guy and ruined his life.
******************
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-whistleblower27sep27,0,7486292.story?track=tottext

A Skeptic Under Pressure
A U.S. engineer faces bankruptcy and arrest in Austria as he questions the safety of a component in the huge Airbus A380 jetliner.


By Peter Pae, Times Staff Writer


VIENNA — Ever since the Mangans gave up their comfortable house in Kansas City, Kan., and moved here a year ago, the family has been living in a kind of suspended animation.

It almost looks as if they just moved into their two-bedroom apartment near Austria's old Imperial Palace: Some boxes shipped from the U.S. have never been opened and the bedroom windows are still covered with sheets because the family ran short of money before they could buy curtains.

ADVERTISEMENT







The three young Mangan children have stopped asking about their plight, although 9-year-old Timothy gets angry every once in a while. "I wish I can yell at them," he blurted out recently about his father's former employer.

Joseph Mangan, 41, is a whistle-blower. As a result he and his family find themselves in a foreign country with unfamiliar laws, fighting a legal battle that has left them almost penniless.



A year ago, Mangan told European aviation authorities that he believed there were problems with a computer chip on the Airbus A380, the biggest and costliest commercial airliner ever built. The A380 is a double-decked engineering marvel that will carry as many as 800 passengers — double the capacity of Boeing Co.'s 747. It is expected to enter airline service next year.

Mangan alleges that flaws in a microprocessor could cause the valves that maintain cabin pressure on the A380 to accidentally open during flight, allowing air to leak out so rapidly that everyone aboard could lose consciousness within seconds.

It's a lethal scenario similar to the 1999 crash that killed professional golfer Payne Stewart and five others when their Learjet lost cabin pressure and they blacked out. The plane flew on autopilot for hours before crashing in South Dakota.

Mangan was chief engineer for TTTech Computertechnik, a Viennese company that supplies the computer chips and software to control the cabin-pressurization system for the A380, which is being assembled at the Airbus plant in France.

In October, TTTech fired Mangan and filed civil and criminal charges against him for revealing company documents. The company said the information was proprietary and he had no right to disclose it to anyone.

Mangan countersued, saying he had been wrongly terminated for raising legitimate safety concerns.

Unlike U.S. laws that shield whistle-blowers from corporate retaliation, Austrian laws offer no such protection. Last year an Austrian judge imposed an unusual gag order on Mangan, seeking to stop him from talking about the case.

Mangan posted details about the case anyway in his own Internet blog. The Austrian court fined him $185,000 for violating the injunction.

And the Vienna police, who are conducting a criminal investigation into the matter, searched the family's apartment for four hours, downloading files from Mangan's computer as his children watched.

Boxes of documents detailing his allegations clutter the living room, but Mangan can't show the material or talk about the case — at least in Austria.

To discuss his case with The Times, Mangan took a five-hour train ride to Munich, Germany, where the gag order doesn't apply. "I don't want to destroy TTTech," he said. "But I still get nightmares of people dying. I just can't let that happen."

To help pay living expenses and legal fees, Mangan sold his house in Kansas. With only about $300 left in his bank account, Mangan missed a Sept. 8 deadline to pay his $185,000 fine and faces up to a year in jail. Next month he's likely to be called before a judge on his criminal case.

The family expected to be evicted this month from their apartment, but their church in Vienna took up a collection to pay their rent.

At the moment, Mangan is hiding out at a church member's home because he fears he could be arrested at any time.

Mangan's wife, Diana, has been reading a book, "Lord, Where Are You When Bad Things Happen?" to make sense of the family's ordeal. "He's trying to do the right thing. Why are we suffering for it?" she said.

On both sides of the Atlantic, Mangan's case has raised eyebrows in the close-knit aerospace community, which is fascinated by his allegations but unclear about how serious they are.

Hans Weber, a veteran aviation consultant in San Diego, can't say whether Mangan has a legitimate claim because he hasn't seen the evidence. But he is baffled by the extent to which Airbus and TTTech have "gone after" Mangan.

"There is something really unusual about this case in the sense that there is this hard standoff between Airbus and the individual," Weber said. "It doesn't make any sense to me."

One of Mangan's key allegations is that because of the A380's unusual design, any loss of cabin pressure would be extremely dangerous.

Most passenger jets have two cabin-pressure valves, with separate motors operating each. Because aircraft makers want redundancy on safety systems, the planes have three motors for each valve, with different chips controlling each motor. The Boeing 777, for example, has cabin-pressure chips made by Motorola Inc., Intel Corp. and Advanced Micro Devices Inc. Most jetliners also have a manual override so that the pilot can take control in an emergency.

Airbus has acknowledged that its designers faced challenges as they attempted to reduce the A380's weight. Early on, the company elected to go with four outflow valves on the A380, with only one motor on each valve, which is slightly larger than a cabin window. Each motor uses a TTTech controller chip, and there is no manual override system.

"Just there, I would not be happy," said Chris Lomax, a retired engineer who helped design the cabin-pressurization systems for Boeing's 737 and 747. "If all four valves [on the A380] were driven wide open, it would be nip and tuck for the crew to get their [oxygen] mask on and begin a descent."

Airbus says that the A380 has achieved redundancy by installing the extra cabin-pressure valves, which provide a safety cushion in case a valve fails. As for Mangan's allegations, they are "an unsubstantiated crusade," Airbus spokesman Clay McConnell said.

"Don't you think we would look into it, and if we found it was true we would do something about it?" McConnell asked.

The A380, which is undergoing flight testing, is a year behind schedule because of unspecified problems. But Airbus has told aviation authorities that there is ample time to fix any problems that are discovered during the certification process.

TTTech executives insist that their product is safe. They portray Mangan as a disgruntled ex-employee seeking retribution and eager to blackmail them. "He's trying to destroy the company," Chief Executive Stefan Poledna said.

TTTech supplies parts to Hamilton Sundstrand, a United Technologies Corp. unit that is building the A380's cabin-pressurization system. "The matters raised by Mr. Mangan have been thoroughly reviewed," a Hamilton Sundstrand spokeswoman said, "and safety of flight will be assured."

The European Aviation Safety Agency, which is handling the A380's flight worthiness certification, has reviewed Mangan's allegations. "We have done the research and acted accordingly," spokesman Daniel Holtgen said. "We can't comment on it because it is a matter for Airbus."

Mangan believes that the European aerospace establishment is whitewashing his claims because of enormous cost savings that will be realized if TTTech's chips are approved for the A380.

TTTech's chip originally was designed for use in autos, and the company is trying to get it certified as an existing, "commercial off-the-shelf" product that is acceptable for the A380, according to court records.

Mangan, however, alleges that the chip is being customized for aviation purposes, and thus must undergo stringent testing before being approved by regulators.

If regulators decide that TTTech's chip is a simple commercial device and can be used in the A380, it would then be available for other new aircraft without having to pass costly safety reviews.

That's why the industry is so adamant about squashing his claims, Mangan alleges. Airbus, owned by Dutch and British companies, surpassed Boeing in 2003 as the world's largest maker of airliners.

Mangan's attorney, Franz Karl Juraczka, advised him last spring to leave Austria before his legal problems snowballed. Mangan refused: "I wouldn't be able to live with myself if anything went wrong with that airplane."

Despite his ordeal, Mangan remains enthused about aerospace design. He can talk for hours about arcane subjects such as fluid dynamics with the same sense of excitement as a kid with a new toy.

Mangan was born in Ohio and grew up in San Jose, and he always had a fascination for science and technology, family members and friends said. When Apple introduced its first personal computer, the 12-year-old Mangan took apart the family's television set to try to build a PC for himself. He also made a satellite receiver out of coffee cans to try to get weather data from an orbiting satellite.

At 16, while still in high school, he got a part-time job at IBM in San Jose helping to design robotic manufacturing machines. He attended San Jose State University and the University of Massachusetts, but never received a college degree.

Later, while working for Honeywell on a military jet project, he came into contact with TTTech, a company founded by two professors in Vienna to market their computer chips.

They say the chips contain 20 times more memory than the processors currently used in aviation, while having half the electrical wiring required for data communication systems that oversee aircraft controls. The chips also can be used on the steering and braking systems of autos. Moreover, they would cut the cost of aviation chips to about $20 apiece, versus $500 for previous designs.

Mangan was drawn by the firm's potential. His future seemed bright in February 2004 when he was hired as chief engineer at a salary of $100,000, plus $25,000 in moving expenses. Diana Mangan packed up their three children — Shelley, now 12, Timothy and Jarrod, 6 — and they arrived in Vienna in the summer of 2004.

With its subsidized medical care and after-school-care programs, Austria looked like a great place to raise a family. And the family was pleased to discover that Vienna had a Baptist church.

Mangan began work on the chip for the A380's cabin-pressurization system.

Until the 1940s, commercial airplanes were not pressurized and could fly only at about 10,000 feet. Flying above the clouds, around 30,000 feet, would make flights smoother, but at that altitude a lack of oxygen and temperatures of 140 degrees below freezing would kill passengers within minutes.

Then Boeing launched its Stratoliner, the first passenger plane with a sealed cabin. Internal pressure was maintained by regulating the intake and outflow of air during flight. This breakthrough helped lead to the age of modern air travel.

Today, most airline passengers — besides experiencing mild popping in their ears — rarely notice that air inside the cabin is in constant flux as air is taken in through the engines and let out through the valves in the belly of the plane.

However, if the valves are stuck open the cabin can depressurize in seconds before anyone can don emergency oxygen masks. In most cases pilots have time to bring the plane down to a safe altitude, but several recent incidents have raised concerns.

Authorities suspect that cabin-pressure problems caused the August crash in Greece of Helios Airways' Boeing 737 in which all 121 aboard died. And investigators believe that an abrupt loss of cabin pressure may have led to the in-flight breakup of a China Airlines 747 in 2002, killing all 225 aboard.

Mangan said he found serious flaws early last year in TTTech's computer chips and the software for the A380's cabin-pressurization system, according to legal documents. The system was executing "unpredictable" commands when it received certain data, possibly causing the pressure valves to open accidentally.

Because all four motors in the A380's cabin-pressurization system use the same type of flawed TTTech chip, Mangan says, "if one fails, they all fail."

Yet his employer ignored his concerns, he alleges, because fixing the glitches would be costly, could take up to a year and would further delay the A380's launch. TTTech tried to cover up the defects and forged Mangan's signature on documents to suggest that the software passed internal tests and reviews, he alleges in court documents.

"Once they slip this onboard the A380, they can justify using it on all other aircraft," Mangan said.

Indeed, Boeing Co. has ordered TTTech's chips for the flight control system for its upcoming mid-size 787 Dreamliner. Boeing executives said they were unaware of any problems with TTTech's chips, but said further questions should be addressed by TTTech.

TTTech executives denied any wrongdoing. They said there had been a minor glitch but that it had been fixed.

Within days of firing Mangan last fall, TTTech sued him in civil court to try to force him to retract his statements to aviation authorities about the potential defect.

In contrast to the U.S. legal system, in Austria individuals can file criminal charges. A few weeks later TTTech also sued Mangan in criminal court.

Then, in December, a civil court issued an injunction barring Mangan from talking about his case.

By May, the family was short of cash, so Mangan returned to the U.S. to borrow money to help pay his legal bills, and while there he also set up an Internet blog to publicize his safety concerns about the new Airbus.

The Mangans developed a circle of Austrian friends at their church who were eager to help. When Mangan decided his first lawyer wasn't aggressive enough, the church referred him to attorney Juraczka, who agreed to represent him for free.

These days the family's living room looks like a legal library, holding Mangan's voluminous whistle-blower records. He wryly notes that the clutter prevented police from finding all of his documents during their search.

Throughout the family's ordeal, Mangan remained dogmatic about not being chased out of Austria and about standing up for what he believed in. Diana said that she wondered at times whether it might be better to move on, but that the family was "very supportive that it will all work out."

The Mangans live day to day, not sure what will come next. If they can't pay their rent, they hope to return to the U.S. to live with Diana's parents in Ohio, although they have maxed out their credit card and can't afford plane tickets.

Mangan is getting ready to file for personal bankruptcy.

TTTech has offered to drop its legal action against Mangan, court records show, and pay him three months of severance, if he retracts his statements. But Mangan has refused.

Mangan said he was looking for a new job. He has contacted dozens of aerospace firms in the U.S. and Europe, but none have returned his calls. "Nobody wants to touch me," he said.

[Daquan13]

It was, but it was going to to be a double-decked mid-winged model, meaning that the wing was going to be placed between the two floors.

No. The double-deck 747, would have had the same low-mounted wing as the final version. They didn't pursue it due to the difficult of arranging emergency exits over the wings. Even the A380 will need a waiver for this as the upper floor has no exits over the wings, which violates FAA statutes requiring exits every X number of seat rows.

It would also have been very heavy for its size, much like the A380's bloated million pound weight. In addition, it was deemed that the extra capacity was uneeded.



No, STR. In the book titled 747 - Story of the Boeing SUPER JET written by Douglas J. Ingells, which I have, on page 142, there's a pic of one of the earlier designs of the 747 - which WAS a double-decked mid-winged model.

The design was ababdoned mainly because of concerns for passengers possibly being dangerously trapped on the lower floor if the plane ever had to do a ditch (water landing).

Engine pods were further inboard than on the 707. Find the book if you can and go to that page. I know what I'm talking about.

The McDonnell Douglas MD-11, during its design stage, was also going to have this feature in the forward cabin for its first class passengers as well, but for some unknown reason, it was abandoned also.

Like you said, there probbably WAS a double-decked low-winged model for the 747 design, but there also was the one that I mentioned above as an earlier design as well.

You might be talking about the design that had the droop nose,
which they had nicknamed the "anteater" because of the drooping nose.

But there WERE several double-deck designs that Boeing engeers had toyed around with until they choose the ultimate design with the "hump" on the forward fuselage.

[Rachmaninov]

Anyway, so how many firm orders has Airbus received for the A380 up till now?

[Daquan13]

I think it was about 185 or something like that. But don't quote me on it because I'm not sure.

[tayser]

it'll be in Australia in two days :D

[Daquan13]

That's interesting to know.

[Fabb]

Airbus A380 superjumbo arrives in Singapore

Singapore (dpa) - An Airbus superjumbo A380 arrived in Singapore Friday in its first test flight outside Europe, kicking off a three- nation Asian tour.

The world's largest passenger plane touched down at 10 a.m. (0200 GMT) after a 13-hour flight from Toulouse, France, taxied around Changi Airport and docked at a special gate at Terminal 2.

Airbus chiefs hope a smooth tour will ease concerns over delivery days and trigger more sales in the region, that is also being targeted by US rival Boeing.

Boeing's Worldliner jet set a new record for the longest non-stop passenger airline flight completing a trek of more than 20,000 kilometres from Hong Kong to London while the A380 was en route to Singapore. The Boeing flight touched down at London's Heathrow Airport after 22 hours and 42 minutes.

Singapore Airlines (SIA), which has ordered 10 of the Airbus mega jets, is set to be the first carrier to operate the aircraft. It will receive its first plane in November 2006, six months behind schedule, as part of an order worth 8.6 billion US dollars.

``Four of the SIA aircraft are already at different stages of production on the final assembly line,'' the flag carrier said in a statement. ``The first of these will soon be powered up for the first time.''

Airbus has indicated its willingness to compensate some airlines for late deliveries, including SIA.

Only crew members were aboard the maiden Airbus flight to Singapore. Transport Minister Yeo Cheow Tong and other special guests were given a tour.

In addition to Changi, Airbus said 20 airports will be upgraded to accommodate the A380.

Seven carriers in the Asian region have ordered a total 49 A380s. Qantas is purchasing twelve and Malaysian Airlines has ordered six.

Airbus and Boeing, the two global giants of civil aircraft manufacturing, are in fierce competition for customers in the lucrative regional market, particularly in India and China.

The one-day visit left too little time for baggage, cargo-loading and other tests by the Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore (CAAS) and SIA.

The double decker was previously scheduled to arrive on Tuesday, but was delayed when engine supplier Rolls Royce had to replace two of its four engines.

Extensive airport compatibility tests will be carried out when the plane returns early next year.

``There will be ample opportunities for airport compatibility testing,'' an Airbus spokesman said.

The A380, which seats 555 passengers but can be stretched to accommodate 800, claims it will give operators at least 20 per cent cost savings over Boeing's 747 jets.

The jet was scheduled to leave Friday night to arrive in Australia for Qantas' 85th birthday bash. It will stop in Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne, before heading to Malaysia on November 17.

[tayser]

I'm going to miss it at Tulla :( :cry:

[Fabb]

Qantas has announced a schedule for the visit to Australia of the Airbus A380 between 12 and 16 November. The visit will coincide with Qantas' 85th anniversary celebrations.

The Executive General Manager of Qantas, Mr John Borghetti, said the aircraft would arrive in Brisbane on the morning of Saturday 12 November.

While times are subject to change, the current schedule (local times) for the A380's Australian visit is:
Saturday 12 November
* 8:00am Arrive Brisbane

Sunday 13 November
* 6:00am Depart Brisbane
* *8:30am Flyover Sydney Harbour for Qantas aerial photography (weather permitting)
* 9:10am (approx) Arrive Sydney

Monday 14 November
* 11:15am Depart Sydney
* 12:30pm (approx) Arrive Melbourne

Tuesday 15 November
* 9:00am Depart Melbourne
* 10:00am (approx) Arrive Brisbane

Wednesday 16 November
* 2:00pm Depart Brisbane

Mr Borghetti said that the A380 had generated enormous levels of interest in Europe and Qantas expected this to continue for the aircraft's visit to each city.

"While both Qantas and Airbus are pleased that there is so much interest in the A380, opportunities for members of the public to view the aircraft will unfortunately be limited to arrival and departure times.

"We are asking Qantas, Australian Airlines, QantasLink and Jetstar customers to allow extra time for travel to their departure airport, in case of congestion," Mr Borghetti said.

He said that people who were not travelling were advised to avoid the airport vicinity to minimise congestion during the A380's visit to each port.

"In Sydney, the aircraft will fly over the harbour on Sunday 15 November*, with local vantage points providing excellent opportunities to view the aircraft inflight," Mr Borghetti said.

Qantas was the first airline to sign a contract for the A380 and will take delivery of the first of its 12 aircraft in April 2007.

* Note the aircraft will pass over Sydney Harbour from north to south and east of the Sydney Harbour Bridge at 2100 feet and be accompanied by a small jet that will be undertaking aerial filming. This will take place as many as three times. The flyover will provide excellent opportunities for members of the public to view the aircraft.

Source: Qantas press release Nov 10, 2005

[tayser]

over Port Jackson

http://gsc-au.net/a380_1.jpg

KSIA:

http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL572/3465128/7927447/118553705.jpg

[Daquan13]

The plane DOES look very impressive though.

I'll give Airbus credit for that.

[Fabb]

Airbus A380 to be showcased at Dubai Airshow

[Wednesday, November 16, 2005 2:16:00 pm]

http://www.strategiy.com/news%5C20051116051402%5C112.JPG

Airbus’ A380 will be the highlight of the Dubai airshow where, wearing Emirates colours, it will fly each day. This is the first time that the Airbus A380 has displayed at an airshow outside Europe, the first time that it is wearing a full airline livery, and the first time that it has visited Dubai.

Emirates was the first airline to select the A380 and is the largest customer for it, with plans to fly 45, including two on lease. The double-deck 21st Century flagship has been chosen by 16 prestigious airlines that have already ordered an impressive 159 aircraft, including Etihad Airways and Qatar Airways, with four and two, respectively.

Offering passengers wider seats, even in economy, the Airbus A380 is the world’s most economical aircraft, being 15-20 per cent better per seat than today’s largest aircraft. It is also a good neighbour, with fewer emissions and only half the noise of very large aircraft flying today – as spectators will be able to judge for themselves.

The Airbus A380 being displayed at Dubai is one of five aircraft in a flight test programme that began in April this year and will total some 2,500 hours. Its cabin is full of heavy test-instrumentation – including recorders and barrels of water to simulate the weight of passengers and cargo.

The three aircraft currently in the flight-test programme have now flown more than 520 hours in over 140 flights, and continue to make excellent progress. Milestones include an early demonstration of an automatic landing, minimum unstick-speed trials, and a thorough check of aircraft behaviour throughout a wide range of speeds and heights.

Airbus also began A380 airport compatibility checks in October, with a visit to Frankfurt.

Airbus is present at the Dubai airshow with a chalet A45-46 and on stand 206 in Hall C, at which it will highlight the whole of its product line. It has always recognised that airlines need different aircraft for different jobs, and offers point-to-point aircraft such as the A330, A340 and A350 - as well as the hub-to-hub A380.

Launched in October, the Airbus A350 is Airbus’ newest aircraft, and carries 30 more people, eight per cent more economically per seat and 300 nm/555 km further than the newest competing aircraft. A completely new aircraft, featuring a carbonfibre wing and 60 per cent advanced materials, the A350 nevertheless retains the same type-rating as the A330, allowing pilots to switch easily from one to the other.

Qatar Airways is the first and largest customer for the A350 with an order for 60, and other airlines in the region are also interested in it. Total sales of the Airbus A350 stand at more than 140, from ten customers, highlighting the keen interest that it is winning from airlines in the Middle East and around the world.

Airbus forecasts that airlines in the Middle East and North Africa will need a total of more than 1,000 airliners, of all different sizes, worth $124 billion, up to the year 2023. With the world’s most modern airliner family and long-established partnerships with carriers in the region, it expects to win at least a half of this market.

Airbus has won the most airliner sales worldwide in five of the past six years, will deliver the most airliners this year for the third year running, and is the leader in airliner innovation and helping its customers to get the best out of their aircraft.
_________________________________________________


SEPANG, Nov 17 (Bernama) -- Delivery of the remaining five Airbus superjumbo A380 will be finalised by year-end, says Malaysia Airlines' senior general manager for technical and ground operations, Tajuden Abu Bakar.

According to Airbus, the European plane maker, Malaysia Airlines will receive the first of the six A380 aircraft ordered in July 2007.

Malaysia Airlines and its parent company Penerbangan Malaysia Bhd (PMB) had received a letter from Airbus recently, confirming that the first A380-800 aircraft would be delivered in July 2007 instead of January 2007 and the last plane in May 2009.

Airbus said the national carrier and most of the current 159 buyers of the aircraft would, on the average, experience a six-month delay for the 555-seater airplane.

PMB signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) with Airbus to buy six Airbus A380-800 aircraft on Jan 10, 2003.

-- BERNAMA

[Daquan13]

Airbus A380 to be showcased at Dubai Airshow

[Wednesday, November 16, 2005 2:16:00 pm]

http://www.strategiy.com/news%5C20051116051402%5C112.JPG

Airbus’ A380 will be the highlight of the Dubai airshow where, wearing Emirates colours, it will fly each day. This is the first time that the Airbus A380 has displayed at an airshow outside Europe, the first time that it is wearing a full airline livery, and the first time that it has visited Dubai.

Emirates was the first airline to select the A380 and is the largest customer for it, with plans to fly 45, including two on lease. The double-deck 21st Century flagship has been chosen by 16 prestigious airlines that have already ordered an impressive 159 aircraft, including Etihad Airways and Qatar Airways, with four and two, respectively.

Offering passengers wider seats, even in economy, the Airbus A380 is the world’s most economical aircraft, being 15-20 per cent better per seat than today’s largest aircraft. It is also a good neighbour, with fewer emissions and only half the noise of very large aircraft flying today – as spectators will be able to judge for themselves.

The Airbus A380 being displayed at Dubai is one of five aircraft in a flight test programme that began in April this year and will total some 2,500 hours. Its cabin is full of heavy test-instrumentation – including recorders and barrels of water to simulate the weight of passengers and cargo.

The three aircraft currently in the flight-test programme have now flown more than 520 hours in over 140 flights, and continue to make excellent progress. Milestones include an early demonstration of an automatic landing, minimum unstick-speed trials, and a thorough check of aircraft behaviour throughout a wide range of speeds and heights.

Airbus also began A380 airport compatibility checks in October, with a visit to Frankfurt.

Airbus is present at the Dubai airshow with a chalet A45-46 and on stand 206 in Hall C, at which it will highlight the whole of its product line. It has always recognised that airlines need different aircraft for different jobs, and offers point-to-point aircraft such as the A330, A340 and A350 - as well as the hub-to-hub A380.

Launched in October, the Airbus A350 is Airbus’ newest aircraft, and carries 30 more people, eight per cent more economically per seat and 300 nm/555 km further than the newest competing aircraft. A completely new aircraft, featuring a carbonfibre wing and 60 per cent advanced materials, the A350 nevertheless retains the same type-rating as the A330, allowing pilots to switch easily from one to the other.

Qatar Airways is the first and largest customer for the A350 with an order for 60, and other airlines in the region are also interested in it. Total sales of the Airbus A350 stand at more than 140, from ten customers, highlighting the keen interest that it is winning from airlines in the Middle East and around the world.

Airbus forecasts that airlines in the Middle East and North Africa will need a total of more than 1,000 airliners, of all different sizes, worth $124 billion, up to the year 2023. With the world’s most modern airliner family and long-established partnerships with carriers in the region, it expects to win at least a half of this market.

Airbus has won the most airliner sales worldwide in five of the past six years, will deliver the most airliners this year for the third year running, and is the leader in airliner innovation and helping its customers to get the best out of their aircraft.
_________________________________________________


SEPANG, Nov 17 (Bernama) -- Delivery of the remaining five Airbus superjumbo A380 will be finalised by year-end, says Malaysia Airlines' senior general manager for technical and ground operations, Tajuden Abu Bakar.

According to Airbus, the European plane maker, Malaysia Airlines will receive the first of the six A380 aircraft ordered in July 2007.

Malaysia Airlines and its parent company Penerbangan Malaysia Bhd (PMB) had received a letter from Airbus recently, confirming that the first A380-800 aircraft would be delivered in July 2007 instead of January 2007 and the last plane in May 2009.
__________________________________________________
Airbus said the national carrier and most of the current 159 buyers of the aircraft would, on the average, experience a six-month delay for the 555-seater airplane.
____________________________________________________
PMB signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) with Airbus to buy six Airbus A380-800 aircraft on Jan 10, 2003.

-- BERNAMA



This snafu has sparked an outrage from Singapore, Emirates & Quantas, causing them to consider filing for damages against Airbus.

[JMGarcia]

There's been some interesting developments with the A380 testing. It seems that its wake turbulence is so severe that it will require almost twice the spacing between planes for take-off and landing as a 747. It will basically take up 2 slots because of this.

Considering that one of the main selling points of the planes was to be able to carry more pasengers at slot restricted airports this is very bad news indeed.

[Daquan13]

Bad, indeed!

You're right!

[Stratosphere]

What elements of the design create such strong wake turbulence? Did they find out the cause(s)?

[JMGarcia]

What elements of the design create such strong wake turbulence? Did they find out the cause(s)?

From what I read it was a combination of the weight of the plane, the shape of the wings and the engine cowls.

[Fabb]

Airbus Official Sees Tough Competition

By EILEEN NG
The Associated Press
Thursday, November 17, 2005; 6:11 AM

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia -- A senior Airbus official acknowledged Thursday that Boeing's new, slightly bigger 747 jet will pressure the European jetmaker's A380 superjumbo _ but said the move shows its U.S. archrival recognizes there is demand for larger planes.

"It will increase the competition with the A380 freighter, but at least we are glad that Boeing recognizes there is a market for aircraft (bigger than) the 747," said Charle Champion, head of the A380 program.

The Airbus double-decker A380, the world's largest passenger plane, arrived in Kuala Lumpur late Wednesday on the last stop of a three-nation tour of the Asia-Pacific to drum up new business and test its long-haul flight capabilities.

The prototype of the jet landed last Friday in Singapore in its first test-flight out of Europe before flying on to Australia.

The jet, which can typically carry 555 passengers in three classes but can be expanded to accommodate up to 800, was to run compatibility tests at Kuala Lumpur International Airport Thursday and depart Friday.

The first delivery of the A380 _ to Singapore Airlines _ is scheduled for November 2006.

Champion said Airbus is in "active discussions" to sell the jet to several airlines in the Asia-Pacific, a market in which both Airbus and Boeing see great potential.

"We see high interest from a number of airlines in Asia who have not taken order of the A380s, but I think competition is going to be even tougher now that new products are coming in," he told the Associated Press.

Seven airlines in Asia-Pacific have bought 49 A380s, accounting for 31 percent of 159 firm orders so far for the plane.

"Clearly Asia-Pacific is a significant market, not only for the A380 but for aircrafts in general," he said in comments on the sidelines of a lavish ceremony at the airport. "We are doing well but competition is there."

Earlier this week, Boeing Co. announced it was launching new, bigger, more fuel-efficient versions of its 747. A new passenger version will seat 450 people, up from 416 in the most current model and be about 12 feet longer than the current 747. The freighter version will be about 18 feet longer than the current freighter model.

Champion said there is no major deals yet in Asia for Airbus' new mid-sized A350 _ which is competing with Boeing's new 787 jet, but expects overall new orders this year to surge from 140 now to 200 by the year-end.

At Kuala Lumpur airport, some 2,000 people from the transport and aviation industry toured the double-decker jet, including Deputy Prime Minister Najib Razak, who described it as a "wonderful plane and very spacious."

Malaysia Airlines, which ordered six A380s, will opt for less than the recommended 555 seats in a three-cabin configuration "for the comfort of our passengers," said its senior general manager for technical and ground operations, Tajuden Abu Bakar.

The A380 will initially be used for routes to Sydney and London, and subsequently for high-density routes to other Australian and European cities, he said.

Tajuden said the fuel-efficient A380 will improve profitability for the loss-making airline, which is under pressure to cut costs and boost its financial prospects.

The airline will receive the first plane in July 2007, with the rest to be spread out until 2009, which will help reduce the company's financial burden, he added.

Apart from the Kuala Lumpur International Airport, airports in the northern resort island of Langkawi and in Kota Kinabalu, the capital of eastern Sarawak state on Borneo island, are also being upgraded to accommodate the A380, officials said.

[KingKrunch]

First A380 in Emirates livery, prepared for the Dubai airshow:

http://www.airliners.net/photos/photos/2/6/3/961362.jpg

[Fabb]

They changed the livery pretty fast. It was Qantas last week.

[banned]

That is a different plane, F-WWDD vs. F-WWOW (the one in SIN, SYD last week).

[The Chemist]

^You can also see that the livery is not painted - it's just decals. Look at the shade of white around the 'Emirates' on the fuselage, and compare it to the rest of the fuselage.

F-WWDD was painted pure white, to allow for quick changes of livery. The A380 is a fantastic looking plane when it's in livery - I thougt it looked fabulous in the incomplete Qantas livery it was wearing in Australia, and even better in these pictures in the full Emirates livery.

[Daquan13]

Emirates has also just placed a massive order for 42 more Boeing 777's (I wrote it in a separate thread).

[Rachmaninov]

What elements of the design create such strong wake turbulence? Did they find out the cause(s)?

Hmm fluid mechanics here...

The sheer size of the plane means a huge characteristic length and hence increases the Reynolds number when flying past a control volume of air (compared to other planes with the same speed).

A higher Reynolds number means more turbulence.

note: Re=UL/v

[Fabb]

I'm not sure that Re is dramatically greater than in the case of the B747.

[Daquan13]

(Edit)

[Daquan13]

Hmmm, I'm terribly afraid that this just might cause more delays for Airbus in getting the plane delivered over to the airlines that have ordered it.

Time will tell.:hmmm:

[Fabb]

Hmmm, I'm terribly afraid that this just might cause more delays for Airbus in getting the plane delivered

You wish.
I'm pretty sure there will be no more delays.

[Daquan13]

I'm not wishing this against them.

But how can you be sure that there will be no more delays? Are you psychic?

[Fabb]

I'm not wishing this against them.

But how can you be sure that there will be no more delays? Are you psychic?

You got me. I'm not sure, I'm just wishing.
But the other two aircraft were produced according to schedule, so...

[Daquan13]

Let's hope for the best.

[Rachmaninov]

Airbus says superjumbo turbulence may cause delays in airports:

DUBAI (AFX) - Concerns about turbulence behind Airbus' new A380 superjumbo might mean longer waits between take-off times when the airliner starts commercial operations next year, the company's chief executive said.

Responding to a report in the Wall Street Journal Europe that industry regulators are concerned about the wake created by the A380, Gustav Humbert said that longer separation times between aircraft might initially be introduced 'as a precautionary measure' before being reduced.

'It's possible that they (regulators) say 'let's have entry to service of the A380 with longer separation times' as a precautionary measure and then reduce them,' the European aircraft maker's chief executive told journalists on the sidelines of the Dubai air show.

The report, quoting preliminary safety guidelines from the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), said that airliners may have to fly at least twice the normal distance behind the A380 to avoid possible danger from vortex turbulence in its wake.

The overall effect of a rule delaying the arrival of following aircraft would be to increase congestion at hub airports and reduce a cost-advantage selling point of the A380, which is to increase efficiency at congested mainline airports, the newspaper said.

Gumbert said that longer separation distances had also been introduced when the 747 jumbo was launched by Boeing in 1970.

'Even if at the beginning they do it like for the 747, we should not be surprised,' he said.

The report said that the standards put out by the aviation organization this month were provisional and probably more cautious than formal rules expected next year.

The Airbus A380 can carry up to about 850 passengers and is due to go into service next year.

The ICAO report said that the 'significantly stronger' turbulence left by the superjumbo, compared to the draft left by smaller airliners, indicated that the minimum distance left by following aircraft when landing should be 10 nautical miles instead of five, and that the distance in the air should be 15 miles.

The report quoted a spokesman for the German airline Lufthansa as saying that the airline operated at congested airports and that 'it is crucial for us that the separation is the same as for a (Boeing) 747'.


^This is the article.

[staff]

^^
It was exactly the same case when the 747 was introduced back in the days...

[Daquan13]

^And the 747-8 might experience the same problems all over again.:dunno:

[STR]

Not really, it isn't much heaver then the 744 and the wing is wider, thus it will have about the same wake as the 744.

The A388 is really heavy, more than 200,000 lbs more than the 747. It's in an entirely new weight class. It will have a larger wake. The proposition that the wake would be only as large as the 747 was laughable.

[urbanflyer]

The problem at this point is a significant issue with wake turbulence sufficient to harm sales volume could prove costly for Airbus on multiple fronts. The discussions, testing and research need to be advanced as quickly as possible. If any authority ultimately decides that regulatory spacing standards will change for A380, it will be a potentially fatal flaw.

The other problem is that design changes at this stage to mitigate the issue are limited at best considering the aircraft is in the final development cycle for the first production offering. Subtle design experimentation may be necessary but the reality is engineers still don't understand wake turbulence very well. Boeing never figured out what to do with the wake turbulence generated by the 757 as there was something inherent to its design that generated turbulence of much greater intensity than would be usual for its weight class. The FAA and ICAO had to reclassify it in the same category as much heavier planes as a result to ensure safe separation.

[Daquan13]

On November 12, 2001, two months after the terror attacks, AMR
Flight 587, operated by an A-300-600, had crashed in Queens on takeoff and climb-out. The plane was about 1,300 feet or so in the air

At first, it was thought to be the result of wake turbulence due to a 747 departing just mere minutes before the Airbus plane did. But that theory was later ruled out, and Airbus blamed AMR for the tragic mishap, saying that the pilots banked the plane too sharply on climbing.

The tail fin / rudder assembly broke off just before the plane went down. It was never really known just exactly what had actually
caused the plane's fin to break off like that, though AMR had said that that particular plane had problems even before it left the factory.

[staff]

^^
I remember that, but it was totally overshadowed by the terror attacks in 9/11. Another crash that was forgotten due to 9/11 was the SAS-plane that was hit by some smaller aircraft on the tarmac of the Linate airport in Milan. This happened 11th october if I recall correctly... A lot of people died, and it was actually SAS' first real serious accident.

[Daquan13]

Remember also, the Singapore 747 that crashed tragically several years ago one winter? The saddest part about that one is that the plane never left the ground!

Pilot error was the cause, as they steered the plane to the wrong runway - one that was under construction for repairs. The plane, on its takeoff run, hit some construction vehicles and it then broke apart, causing some of its occupants to die.

But also, heavy fog had set in, making it extremely difficult for the pilots to see.

Needless to say, Singapore and the pilots involved were held accountable for the tragic mishap.

[Fabb]

I hate it when they make such idiot announcements, but...

Passengers' safety on board A380 assured



Khaleej Times - 24/11/2005

DUBAI— The Airbus A380, which is considered as the world's largest long-haul airplane featuring two decks, four aisles and the capability to carry 600 to more than 800 passengers on board, is also a "zero-crash aircraft".


"Technology is what we master at Airbus. We just cannot afford to crash. The A380 has been designed to be a zero-crash aircraft and we made sure that it carries passengers safely to and from their destinations," said Jacky Joye, flight test engineer of Airbus.

Set to revolutionise commercial aviation, the A380, which is one of the featured aircraft at the Dubai Airshow 2005, has an 8000-mile range, the lowest costs per seat ever, and is expected to serve as the most effective solution to the increasing number of travellers worldwide.

According to Joye, safety and security of passengers and crew on board have been the prime concern of Airbus in designing and manufacturing the A380.

"It is as safe as it can be. We have tested the aircraft fully by conducting various failure scenarios and checking the systems extensively to avoid any single failure from happening which would cause a plane to crash," Joye added. He also noted that 75 per cent of actual airplane accidents do not happen due to technical failure. "Human error, miscommunication with air traffic controller, and bad judgement are just some of the factors that leads to air accidents," Joye said.

Fully computerised, the A380 is equipped with 100 black boxes, also known as flight data recorder (FDR) and cockpit voice recorder (CVR). The plane's system is likewise monitored regularly so that to prevent the occurrence of any problem.

Joye explained that the aircraft has been designed to last a service period of 50 years and beyond so they made sure that the systems and technology used are highly sophisticated.

"We have put in mind that the pilots who will fly this plane may not have even been born yet," Joye mused.

The flight test engineer mentioned that pilots as well as cabin crews will be trained on the A380's features as well as how to handle emergency situations.

Manufactured in the Airbus headquarters in France, parts of the A380, however, have come from various suppliers all over the world including the United Kingdom, Germany, Spain, and the United States.

[Rachmaninov]

Sounds like Titanic.
I'm not saying that it would crash though but I mean if I were airbus I wouldn't have made such announcements.

[Fabb]

I'm sure Jacky Joye is pretty confident, and he's probably not even allowed to make negative comments.
But, let's face it, there's not such a thing as "zero-risk" when technology is involved.

[Daquan13]

Sounds like Titanic.
I'm not saying that it would crash though but I mean if I were airbus I wouldn't have made such announcements.



Yeah, as much as I would hate to say it, I think that they are putting the carriage in front of the horse.

In other words, I think they should wait for a while and see how the plane does before they become so quick to spit out words that they might have to eat for foolishness later.

Not trying to wish bad luck on them, but they need to save the bragging for later.

[staff]

I believe him! She's unsinkable! :D

[urbanflyer]

It's interesting to note that neither the 747-400 or 777 have ever been lost due to an in-flight incident. There have been numerous accidents involving the 747-400 but they have all occurred on the ground.

[Daquan13]

Yes. The 777 has never suffered a hull loss at all. Not one to date.

Probably because the plane was designed and made so well, I think.

Only a few known incidents occured on a 777, and that had nothing to do with the plane's integrity, performance or operating characteristics.

A maniacal maniac once tried to gain access to the front office by peeling through the cockpit door. He was meet with a blow to the head by one of the pilots who used the small hatchet to subdue him! The plane had to make an emergency landing and the nut was taken off and arrested.

Other than that, the plane made one or two diversions to Boston because of a bad engine. But the plane finished the trip less than halfway across the Atlantic Ocean on its surviving engine. Twice.
Both times it was a United Airlines 777.

And as recently as this past summer, another UAL 777 flying from Los Angeles to London made an emergency stop in Boston because of a bomb threat / scare. The plane was emptied of all passengers, bags and cargo. Nothing was ever found. The plane went back out the next morning to London.

[Rachmaninov]

Touch wood!

[Daquan13]

You mean knock on wood, don't you?

Yes, I just hope that the A-380 can make the same claim. Because Airbus seems to be getting just a little too far above themselves and they need to cool their guns down.

Remember the A-320? The plane was doing flyovers at an air show. Paris, I believe it was. On one of those low flyovers something went terribly wrong. Because Airbus thought they knew the plane better, they DID NOT include manual override in the craft's onboard computer system.

The computer took over the controls at the wrong time and told the plane to land. It crashed into a nearby forest of trees, killing both pilots. The result was a computer lockup.

Boeing learned from this disastrous mistake when the 777 was in the design stages and thought better of it by including manual override in the craft's onboard computer system. It was their very first plane that had the onboard system plus manul override in one shot.

I sincerely hope that the A-380 has manual override in it's onboard computer system. I'm almost certain that it does.

[Rachmaninov]

Is "knock on wood" the american saying? Coz I've never heard of that :P

Anyway let's hope Boeing won't place such a bet by making the same claim for its 787 and 747-8.

[Daquan13]

Yes, it is.

I hope that neither Boeing nor Airbus makes the fatal mistake that they get so high above themselves that they don't think anything bad can happen to their planes.

And BTW, if a plane has so many imperfections to the point that there are seemingly unexplained disasters, not only won't the airlines buy it - the passengers won't fly in it.

We've all learned this from the deHaiverland (later Hawker Siddely) Comet and the McDonnell Douglas DC-10. But the DC-10 survived the odds and proved to be better than it originally was thought to be in the long run.

[The Chemist]

Remember the A-320? The plane was doing flyovers at an air show. Paris, I believe it was. On one of those low flyovers something went terribly wrong. Because Airbus thought they knew the plane better, they DID NOT include manual override in the craft's onboard computer system.

The computer took over the controls at the wrong time and told the plane to land. It crashed into a nearby forest of trees, killing both pilots. The result was a computer lockup.


Untrue. According to this page (http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~szewczyk/cs294-8/hw1.html), the A320 crash in Paris, like almost all modern plane crashes, was caused by human error.

The Airbus A320 has very advanced flight controls, which allow the plane to land virtually unassisted. The "urban legend" version of events that I remembered was that the airplane was flying at a very low altitude witht the landing gear extended. The computer controlling the plane interpreted these conditions as "we're about to land". The airplane failed to deliver extra power when the pilot requested it; that extra power was required to clear the tree tops. The plane belly flopped into the trees; four people were killed out of 136.

As it turns out, the crash was in fact caused by human error: the pilots ignored the low altitude warning systems (probably a reasonable action, given that they were doing a low altitude fly-by). They claimed they thought the plane was at a 100 feet; it was flying as low as 30 feet. They claimed that the engines did not respond properly; the official reports claim they did. It is to be expected that there is a delay between pushing the throttle and the thrust delivered by the engines, in A320 this delay is expected to be 8-10 seconds. Finally, the pilots did switch off the automatic flight controls.

Modern aircraft are exceptionally safe. Unfortunately, the people flying and maintaining them are still human and are prone to mistakes - mistakes that can overcome the inherent safety of aircraft and cause serious incidents.

[JMGarcia]

It's interesting to note that neither the 747-400 or 777 have ever been lost due to an in-flight incident. There have been numerous accidents involving the 747-400 but they have all occurred on the ground.

Even more interesting is that there has never even been a fatality on a 777 on the ground or in the air. I believe the only other plane that can claim that is A-330.

[The Chemist]

^No fatalities have ever happened on the A340 either, although there have been two accidental hull losses.

[Daquan13]

Remember the A-320? The plane was doing flyovers at an air show. Paris, I believe it was. On one of those low flyovers something went terribly wrong. Because Airbus thought they knew the plane better, they DID NOT include manual override in the craft's onboard computer system.

The computer took over the controls at the wrong time and told the plane to land. It crashed into a nearby forest of trees, killing both pilots. The result was a computer lockup.


Untrue. According to this page (http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~szewczyk/cs294-8/hw1.html), the A320 crash in Paris, like almost all modern plane crashes, was caused by human error.



Modern aircraft are exceptionally safe. Unfortunately, the people flying and maintaining them are still human and are prone to mistakes - mistakes that can overcome the inherent safety of aircraft and cause serious incidents.



The computer still fooled the plane into thinking that it was time to land due to the conditions of being at just 30 feet above the ground and with the landing gear down and locked in place.

Why else did Boeing run that peice of footage on the crash in their documentary on the 777 which aired on the Discovery Channel? I have the show because I recorded it and watched it several times.

They pointed out that if the plane had manual overide in the first place, even though you say that it WAS the pilot's fault, they themselves could have stopped the computer's false thinking and pulled out of danger safely.

[The Chemist]

Remember the A-320? The plane was doing flyovers at an air show. Paris, I believe it was. On one of those low flyovers something went terribly wrong. Because Airbus thought they knew the plane better, they DID NOT include manual override in the craft's onboard computer system.

The computer took over the controls at the wrong time and told the plane to land. It crashed into a nearby forest of trees, killing both pilots. The result was a computer lockup.


Untrue. According to this page (http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~szewczyk/cs294-8/hw1.html), the A320 crash in Paris, like almost all modern plane crashes, was caused by human error.



Modern aircraft are exceptionally safe. Unfortunately, the people flying and maintaining them are still human and are prone to mistakes - mistakes that can overcome the inherent safety of aircraft and cause serious incidents.



The computer still fooled the plane into thinking that it was time to land due to the conditions of being at just 30 feet above the ground and with the landing gear down and locked in place.

Why else did Boeing run that peice of footage on the crash in their documentary on the 777 which aired on the Discovery Channel? I have the show because I recorded it and watched it several times.

They pointed out that if the plane had manual overide in the first place, even though you say that it WAS the pilot's fault, they themselves could have stopped the computer's false thinking and pulled out of danger safely.

Did you not read what I posted at all? It said the pilots TURNED OFF the automatic flight controls. And it also pointed out that it was likely the normal delay between pushing on the throttle and gaining extra thrust from the engines that made the plane unable to clear the trees. It had absolutely nothing to do with the computer trying to land the plane when the pilots did not want to.

And just because Boeing says something about an Airbus aircraft doesn't make it true. Of course they're going to want to make their planes sound better than their competitors - if it means embellishing or ignoring the truth, so be it.