[beachdoc06]

^ Anyway you can provide the link to that article? I can't seem to find it on their website.

[aaron38]

I passed by the site today around noon and a three man crew was down there with tape measures and measuring wheels, recording on a clip board.

But I didn't see any settlement marks or anything.

[Mojava]

* Moderator Edit *

mojava, at the request of that website's owner, we are forbidden to link to it. in fact, the owner is such a sour old crumudgeon that it is best to not even mention that website on this forum. thanks for understanding.

- steely

[SolarWind]

There was some activity at the Mandarin Oriental site today. Kenny Construction had a pickup truck and a Caterpillar Loader-Backhoe on the lot. The equipment was moving sand around and leveling out the ground near the north entryway.

http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/3562/pa170084ui0.jpg http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/6036/pa170082ly2.jpg
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3139/pa170083cm3.jpg http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/8842/pa170080cl8.jpg

A truck from Hydro-Exc., Inc. was on site at noontime. They were playing around in the earth and left a mound of dirt. I just caught the end of it before they left. Here's a description of what they do from their website:

Hydro-Exc., Inc. (http://hydroex.com/) is a construction service company that assists contractors in making their projects safer, more productive and profitable. Safety is our first priority. When contractors hire our services, we can safely excavate and expose underground utilities with our state of the art equipment. There is no fear of striking a utility, or bringing harm to employees or the environment they work in.

[Nowhereman1280]

Thats great news for this one! Hopefully this means they are getting ready to start work on this one! I hope this means another big one started before the real estate market cools too much or something like that comes along and messes this boom up!

[Mr Roboto]

Wow, yes it definitely sounds like they are getting close to starting this one. Great news. I can hardly believe it, this bldg doesn't seem to face as many hurdles as I thought it might (w/ selling hotel-condos etc.). I'm not worried about the boom ending yet, there's still a lot of dt condo sales activity. Its weird though that we still dont have figures for the height and floor # and they appear to be so close to starting.

[the urban politician]

How can a project like this start without selling enough units?

[kalmia]

How can a project like this start without selling enough units?


They're Chinese. Maybe they have the cash and will start without pre-construction sales.

[budman]

They're Chinese. Maybe they have the cash and will start without pre-construction sales.

^ The developer is not Chinese, just the hotel operator. And I dont think that would matter anyway.

[Mr Roboto]

Im pretty sure having a major anchor like Mandarin Oriental hotels is a big reason why this thing is moving so fast (despite what would seem like not having enough condo sales). There must be other things to consider too, but being chinese is probably not one of them...wtf?

[ardecila]

A big reason why Asian cities have so many skyscrapers, in addition to space limitations, is because developers there are willing to take risks, even when building very tall buildings. They will often start construction despite an initial lack of interest in the project.

If it is built and it still does not sell, then the market will find other uses for one of the most beautiful new buildings in Chicago.

[thenewsupastar]

that is a very sexy design.

[Nowhereman1280]

I would like to point out that Asians are no more willing to take risk than Americans, that is a complete falsehood. The reason Asia is seeing such numbers (and sizes) of highrises is because the risk is lower there for several reasons.

A. It costs less to build something when labor is 1/20 the cost of labor here. Therefore the intial investment to build something is much less risky becuase it requires much less money. Less money=less money to lose on a project.

B. There is a huge amount of demand in Asia. This (seemingly insatiable) demand (which is indeed partially due to space restraints) allows investors build it because there are throngs of people who want to come.

C. Most Asian economies were/are nearly completely undeveloped and now we are seeing the rapid development of the economy, thus a rapid demand for buildings, and lots of them.


This is not an issue of American Capitolists vs. Asian Capitolists, they all function exactly the same. They will all avoid and take the same risks, thats how the global economy functions, the only difference is that the equation for risk in Asia is currently equating to extremely low levels of risk. It is nieve to think that American bussiness has become conservative when the current situation is obviously just the natural result of supply and demand economics.

PS Note the fact that the vast majority of Asian development has been partially funded by Western interests, though, as their economies strenthen, that is beginning to change.

[kalmia]

Now they have to figure out how tall this thing is going to be.

[chicubs111]

I really wish we could get an accurate height on this one. Looking at the SCB website it states the building at 61 stories...and they designed it so you would think they would know.

[honte]

Their web site is also almost always out-of-date. They had the Streeter down by its street address for nearly 1 year after the name was announced.

[the urban politician]

I would like to point out that Asians are no more willing to take risk than Americans, that is a complete falsehood.

^ Yes they are. Who invented Kung-Fu, walking on hot coals, and eating monkey's brains? Who invented Kamakaze and the Kama Sutra?

That's right, buddy. Always livin on the cutting edge, those people :jester:

[kalmia]

I really wish we could get an accurate height on this one. Looking at the SCB website it states the building at 61 stories...and they designed it so you would think they would know.

The mandarin oriental website says it's 90 stories.


A thing of interest that I noticed is if you do a Google search for mandarin oriental chicago you will get a map at the top of the screen with address. It's like:

Mandarin Oriental Chicago
maps.google.com
160 N Stetson Ave
Chicago, IL 60601
(312) 540-1515
Get directions

Interesting that they already have this building as an address. sears tower chicago - nothing, aqua Chicago - nothing, but Waterview brings up a map too

[Nowhereman1280]

^ Yes they are. Who invented Kung-Fu, walking on hot coals, and eating monkey's brains? Who invented Kamakaze and the Kama Sutra?

That's right, buddy. Always livin on the cutting edge, those people :jester:

HAHAHA, I stand corrected!

[the urban politician]

Mandarin Oriental Chicago
maps.google.com
160 N Stetson Ave
Chicago, IL 60601
(312) 540-1515
Get directions

Interesting that they already have this building as an address. sears tower chicago - nothing, aqua Chicago - nothing, but Waterview brings up a map too

^ That's because they're Chinese and they get lost easily. You know, with those small eyes :asian:

I did it! I found a reason to use the asian smiley! I now have reached a zen-like state :lmao:

Okay, way off topic. You can now ban me and erase my last 5 posts, Steely

[SamInTheLoop]

The mandarin oriental website says it's 90 stories.


A thing of interest that I noticed is if you do a Google search for mandarin oriental chicago you will get a map at the top of the screen with address. It's like:

Mandarin Oriental Chicago
maps.google.com
160 N Stetson Ave
Chicago, IL 60601
(312) 540-1515
Get directions

Interesting that they already have this building as an address. sears tower chicago - nothing, aqua Chicago - nothing, but Waterview brings up a map too

That's probably the address for the sales center, no?

[SamInTheLoop]

I would like to point out that Asians are no more willing to take risk than Americans, that is a complete falsehood. The reason Asia is seeing such numbers (and sizes) of highrises is because the risk is lower there for several reasons.

A. It costs less to build something when labor is 1/20 the cost of labor here. Therefore the intial investment to build something is much less risky becuase it requires much less money. Less money=less money to lose on a project.

B. There is a huge amount of demand in Asia. This (seemingly insatiable) demand (which is indeed partially due to space restraints) allows investors build it because there are throngs of people who want to come.

C. Most Asian economies were/are nearly completely undeveloped and now we are seeing the rapid development of the economy, thus a rapid demand for buildings, and lots of them.


This is not an issue of American Capitolists vs. Asian Capitolists, they all function exactly the same. They will all avoid and take the same risks, thats how the global economy functions, the only difference is that the equation for risk in Asia is currently equating to extremely low levels of risk. It is nieve to think that American bussiness has become conservative when the current situation is obviously just the natural result of supply and demand economics.

PS Note the fact that the vast majority of Asian development has been partially funded by Western interests, though, as their economies strenthen, that is beginning to change.

Ok, not to get too far off topic, but in developing Asian countries, all things equal, there is actually more risk. With a far less-developed and sophisticated capital market and banking system, lower transparency (legal system issues, less access to high-quality market data, goverment stability risk, currency risk, lower credibility in central banking system, etc, etc, etc, development projects are by definition further out on the risk-return spectrum. Higher risk as well as higher return. Of course labor is cheaper, but there are all sorts of market issues in countries with this explosive type of demand growth - for example, vacancy rates in some of these cities are tremendously high, because even with robust demand, new supply is even more impressive (again, higher transparency brought on in part by abundance of high-quality market data would greatly curtail this type of oversupply). This applies to many cities in China for example. Now for the rapidly developing cities of the middle east (ultimate example is of course Dubai), that's a completely different situation, and even much further out on the risk-return spectrum, as much of that building doesn't even have anything to do with supply-demand fundamentals or actual, functioning economies...

[Frankie]

any new update with the mandarin, what is the status of those construction vehilcles that we saw pics of on the site not to long ago??????? Also always good to bump a thread from page 3

[SamInTheLoop]

any new update with the mandarin, what is the status of those construction vehilcles that we saw pics of on the site not to long ago??????? Also always good to bump a thread from page 3


Unfortunately, I have it on good authority that this one is now not planned to officially begin construction until next spring. I would add "at the earliest".

This delay doesn't really come as a surprise, as I don't believe they have sold enough of the regular tower condos yet. Does anyone have a current percentage? In addition, the Residences have not even been officially offered for sale yet, and my guess is that the hotel-condos probably have been selling slowly - again, a percentage, anyone?

My concern with this one is and has always been the development team's lack of major experience. Of course, Mandarin's committment eased that concern to a large degree (although I always thought their very early and definitive committment to this team was somewhat curious). On the actual execution side, it is certainly reassuring that Bovis is on board. Definitely no doomsday prognostications yet, but we need to keep a careful eye on this one...

[the urban politician]

^ All things considered, even if the market slows down to normal, why should anyone doubt this project coming to fruition? A ground-breaking before next spring was too ambitious to begin with--a bit of patience is called for here, and I'm sure most developers get that

[chicubs111]

hmm...I just got an email today from one of the sales associates saying that construction would begin in January. I thought this would make sense considering what they are doing now on the site.

[SamInTheLoop]

hmm...I just got an email today from one of the sales associates saying that construction would begin in January. I thought this would make sense considering what they are doing now on the site.

Oh, really? I just got an email from someone in sales stating that groundbreaking would be 2nd qtr....The need to get on the same page
I guess...

[Marcu]

^ All things considered, even if the market slows down to normal, why should anyone doubt this project coming to fruition? A ground-breaking before next spring was too ambitious to begin with--a bit of patience is called for here, and I'm sure most developers get that

If I was to bet money on any of the major projects coming to fruition in Chicago this would be the one.

First, it's too close to the start date and chances are it would have already fallen through. It's very expensive to scrap a project of this magnitude a few months before groundbreaking.

Second, it's backed by a major hotel looking to expand for the long term, regardless of any short term shock in the market.

Finally, the location is just too damn good. A housing slump will affect less established neighborhoods much more so than a location so close to established streeterville and gold coast.

[Mojava]

^ I agree. Lets not rely too heavily on what the sales people have to say though.

Until any info from the developer states otherwise I'm still expecting a 2009 hotel opening. That doesnt meen completion. They will most likely do a soft opening as Trump is planning.

Everything I hear on the "street" is that this project is for real. People in the industry are starting to talk more and more about this one.

[brian_b]

I noticed this morning that there are a few units listed in the MLS, with prices ranging from just under $600,000 and up to $3.4 million.

[Alliance]

Everything I hear on the "street" is that this project is for real. People in the industry are starting to talk more and more about this one.

We can only hope. :)

[bnk]

Mandarin Oriental, Chicago (Opening 2009)

Mandarin Oriental, Chicago will occupy 15 floors of a new 90-storey tower which will be an exclusive mixed-use development in Chicago’s growing Millennium Park neighbourhood. In addition to the 250 spacious guestrooms and suites, a 20,000 square foot Spa will create an unprecedented relaxation experience within a vibrant urban setting. The property will also feature 50 luxurious branded Residences and a further 300 deluxe condominiums, as well as upscale retail shops.

http://www.mandarinoriental.com/hotel/520000016.asp

[chicubs111]

yea..thats an outdated number...but really nobody knows the exact height anymore so who knows?

[urban_encounter]

Mandarin Oriental, Chicago (Opening 2009)

Mandarin Oriental, Chicago will occupy 15 floors of a new 90-storey tower which will be an exclusive mixed-use development in Chicago’s growing Millennium Park neighbourhood.


The pace at which Chicago is building 700' 800' 900' and even 1000' towers, 90 stories wouldn't be that surprising.

[Nowhereman1280]

Mandarin Oriental, Chicago (Opening 2009)

Mandarin Oriental, Chicago will occupy 15 floors of a new 90-storey tower which will be an exclusive mixed-use development in Chicago’s growing Millennium Park neighbourhood.


Millennium Park Neighborhood? I'm pretty sure there is no such thing! Though it is interesting to note that the park does seem to be becoming the center of a new community with all this new development around it. Perhaps one day they will consider some area the "Millenium Park neighborhood".

[laro3]

wow exactly

[Chi_Coruscant]

Palladin should've hired the local brokers at first place, not from out of state.

[brian_b]

Palladin should've hired the local brokers at first place, not from out of state.

so they thought they knew more than anyone else because they were from New York, what else is new?

[no-la-usa]

Im still not sold on the condotel concept, so Im sure many others arent either. It seems like timeshares reduxe. Does anyone think this is a fad or something that will be around for the long haul?

[SamInTheLoop]

Im still not sold on the condotel concept, so Im sure many others arent either. It seems like timeshares reduxe. Does anyone think this is a fad or something that will be around for the long haul?

The condotel concept in Chicago is unquestionably a short-lived fad. I hope these lazy developers wise up and just go back to the capital markets for traditional hotel financing (which is readily available for downtown Chicago hotel projects (because 1 the market is very strong and still improving and 2 there is a lot of institutional money out there chasing commercial real estate), as part of their mixed-use complexes. What will undoubtedly happen for the stubborn few who stick with the concept is that most of the units will remain unsold (or the buyers will back out) and be left in the developer's hands anyway.

[SamInTheLoop]

Palladin should've hired the local brokers at first place, not from out of state.

Of course they should have. Their decision was simply bizarre. What is even more bizarre is that I contacted this NY company, and they couldn't even confirm that they were marketing this project! What's most frustrating is that the sales they could have captured were in the first and second qtr when the market was quite a bit stronger than right now - they will be sorely missed.

[budman]

The condotel concept in Chicago is unquestionably a short-lived fad. I hope these lazy developers wise up and just go back to the capital markets for traditional hotel financing (which is readily available for downtown Chicago hotel projects (because 1 the market is very strong and still improving and 2 there is a lot of institutional money out there chasing commercial real estate), as part of their mixed-use complexes. What will undoubtedly happen for the stubborn few who stick with the concept is that most of the units will remain unsold (or the buyers will back out) and be left in the developer's hands anyway.
^I agree. My only additional observation is that the concept may "work" for the very narrow nitch at the high end - Trump, Waterview and maybe the Elysian - in that they are more likely than the others to sell a reasonable number of units or, if they cant,can at least hang to a lot of unsold units indefinitely without impacting the rest of the development. This is at least true for Trump and Teng, who have world wide projects and lots of capital. Elysian is a new brand, however, with no history. If they are unable to sell out, I have no idea how long the developer can hang on to the unsold hotel without dissolving, going bk, etc. This is why, if I were to be a prospective purchaser (and I am not, nor would be), I would be looking at Trump or Waterview, and not Elysian. The Mandarin may be too late to the game.

[chicubs111]

mandarin wants to be in chicago. They will figure out something to be there. I dont understand why dont they just have regular hotels rooms instead of condo-hotels. I mean they charge a pricey room rate because of the mandarin name, they can certainly make up the profit difference in the long run than just selling condo hotels .

[the urban politician]

mandarin wants to be in chicago. They will figure out something to be there. I just understand want not have regular hotels like they used to be, just charge a tons of money for the brand name.

^ I have no clue what you said in that last sentence.

Anyway, I hope sales turn for the better, because I love this project and would hate to see it fold. Honestly, I was a bit surprised that I never saw adds for Mandarin like we've seen for Trump and X/O in all sorts of places. They need to market themselves more aggressively, although I confess their sales packet is very impressive

[Marcu]

Of course they should have. Their decision was simply bizarre. What is even more bizarre is that I contacted this NY company, and they couldn't even confirm that they were marketing this project! What's most frustrating is that the sales they could have captured were in the first and second qtr when the market was quite a bit stronger than right now - they will be sorely missed.

Maybe we'll be able to get some details on the project now (e.g. height)

[honte]

In any event, 25% sold isn't bad at all, considering a poor marketing campaign. They may be up to 50% before we know it.

[SamInTheLoop]

^I agree. My only additional observation is that the concept may "work" for the very narrow nitch at the high end - Trump, Waterview and maybe the Elysian - in that they are more likely than the others to sell a reasonable number of units or, if they cant,can at least hang to a lot of unsold units indefinitely without impacting the rest of the development. This is at least true for Trump and Teng, who have world wide projects and lots of capital. Elysian is a new brand, however, with no history. If they are unable to sell out, I have no idea how long the developer can hang on to the unsold hotel without dissolving, going bk, etc. This is why, if I were to be a prospective purchaser (and I am not, nor would be), I would be looking at Trump or Waterview, and not Elysian. The Mandarin may be too late to the game.

Well, the developer could sell the remaining units and common hotel area to investors that own hotels - institutional, private, public hotel REIT, etc. However, the fact that some of the units are owned privately, condo-style would undoubtedly complicate such a deal. Again, this is such a new phenomenon, I don't really know how that would work. It's just so irritating that these developers decided to take the easy up-front route of the unproven conodtel. Easy up-front, in at least some cases, the pain will be later...

[SamInTheLoop]

mandarin wants to be in chicago. They will figure out something to be there. I dont understand why dont they just have regular hotels rooms instead of condo-hotels. I mean they charge a pricey room rate because of the mandarin name, they can certainly make up the profit difference in the long run than just selling condo hotels .

If this project falls apart (I'm not yet predicting that), Mandarin definitely will find a project that works in Chicago - eventually. I think for this project, they should pull all of the condotel units off the market and instead sell the hotel portion (just as Strategic Hotel bought the hotel portion of Aqua from Magellan), then they should forget the idea of The Residences - the 100 condos that will have all of the hotel services - they are simply priced to high. These should be changed to regular condos at the same price points of the Tower Condominiums. I think these moves would increase this development's chances of happening this decade.

[SamInTheLoop]

I want to know what is considered in the 25% sold figure. I have a funny feeling they might only be quoting the percentage of the Tower Condominiums (150) that have been sold. There are also The Residences (100, which to the best of my knowledge have not even been offered for sale yet), and of course the condotels (250). Also, I was thinking, with their initial mistake of selecting Corcoran Sunshine for marketing, it's almost as if these guys have no real major development experience at all - oh, wait - that's right, they don't.

[kalmia]

Maybe we'll be able to get some details on the project now (e.g. height)


I think the title of this thread should be changed to:

CHICAGO: Mandarin Oriental International - ????'/??? floors

[Alliance]

Of course they should have. Their decision was simply bizarre. What is even more bizarre is that I contacted this NY company, and they couldn't even confirm that they were marketing this project! What's most frustrating is that the sales they could have captured were in the first and second qtr when the market was quite a bit stronger than right now - they will be sorely missed.
:haha:

[trvlr70]

I'm honestly not surprised about the Crain's article. Or, for that matter the slow sales. The former sales group has done such a poor job that I wasn't even sure condos were officially for sale in the first place.

Also, in comparison to some of the other comparable condo developments out there, Mandarin would not be at the top of my list.

What makes this place stand out from the others in a positive way?

[budman]

If this project falls apart (I'm not yet predicting that), Mandarin definitely will find a project that works in Chicago - eventually. I think for this project, they should pull all of the condotel units off the market and instead sell the hotel portion (just as Strategic Hotel bought the hotel portion of Aqua from Magellan), then they should forget the idea of The Residences - the 100 condos that will have all of the hotel services - they are simply priced to high. These should be changed to regular condos at the same price points of the Tower Condominiums. I think these moves would increase this development's chances of happening this decade.
^I dont understand how the residences would sell either, for $1400/sq ft (which I think is the price point), especially because the views at that level of the tower (I think roughly 30 - 55) will be largely blocked. For this same reason, I dont see how the developer could justify the same price per square foot as the upper portion of the tower, where the views will be much better. Maybe they were thinking that the only way to sell the mid-level units was to offer the cache of providing for five star hotel services in the cost of the units, hoping that this would overcome the inferior views.

[budman]

I want to know what is considered in the 25% sold figure. I have a funny feeling they might only be quoting the percentage of the Tower Condominiums (150) that have been sold. There are also The Residences (100, which to the best of my knowledge have not even been offered for sale yet), and of course the condotels (250). Also, I was thinking, with their initial mistake of selecting Corcoran Sunshine for marketing, it's almost as if these guys have no real major development experience at all - oh, wait - that's right, they don't.
^ I agree that the 25% is probably an underestimate of the total number of units sold to date. Part of that are undoubtedly friends and family purchases to get the ball rolling, and it probably does not include, at least, the hotel portion, and probably the residences portion as well. Plus, the source of that information is the developer, and that fact further suggests that the 25% figure is inflated. I, too, believe Mandarin will land something here, whether at this tower or another. But I really love this design...

[Mr Roboto]

I'm honestly not surprised about the Crain's article. Or, for that matter the slow sales. The former sales group has done such a poor job that I wasn't even sure condos were officially for sale in the first place.


^Exactly, I've never heard about or seen ads for units in this building. I thought they must have been using some ultra-elite rich people's newsletter that average folks dont know about. Either way, I wouldn't be too pessimistic with this one. It still has a good location and design, and marketing has been a joke. Lets see what happens once they really start pushing this thing.

[budman]

^Exactly, I've never heard about or seen ads for units in this building. I thought they must have been using some ultra-elite rich people's newsletter that average folks dont know about. Either way, I wouldn't be too pessimistic with this one. It still has a good location and design, and marketing has been a joke. Lets see what happens once they really start pushing this thing.
^That's interesting, because I see ads in every Sunday paper, including a separate, high gloss ad that is placed on top of my paper, but inside the plastic wrap (ie, so it is the first thing I see). In fact, in last weeks sunday trib, there was an ad for Waterview on the top of one half of a page, and on the bottom half of the same page was an ad for the Mandarin. I am not sure whether I have seen ads anywhere else.

[Steely Dan]

^ i was just about to say the same thing budman, this thing has been advertized in every sunday trib for months now. maybe all of these people who claim that there has been no advertizing for this project are sun-times people ;)

[Jaroslaw]

Also, in comparison to some of the other comparable condo developments out there, Mandarin would not be at the top of my list.

What makes this place stand out from the others in a positive way?

Totally agree... the views are poor, and when you step outside, you are nowhere... a block away, CTA buses on upper Columbus idling between runs, that's your nightlife.

The MO flagship property in HK was recently renovated (getting rid of the balconies because the pollution has made the open air intolerable) and six months ago the building was plastered with ads for the Chicago project. Personally, I think they were sold a bad location, they didn't do their homework with this one... I can think of a dozen better development sites than this one.

[Mojava]

Just a quick few items on the Residences from my knowledge and research. The MO Residences in NY are the highest priced condos in NYC. (Tom Brady just bought one for 14million). The Residences in Boston were completely sold out without any advertising. People who buy into this product really dont care about views. They are very wealthy, high level execs or celebrity types that want anything at anytime and will get it.

[Jaroslaw]

-The residences in Boston are a view building, from what I remember, and they're in the city, not in a 500-footer suburb...

[Mojava]

Trvlr70, other then location what makes you think this project doesnt stand out. I'm a hug fan of Mandarin so I'm willing to debate this. They truly deliver the best hotel experience around. They are also the only real 5 star product for sale here. Shangr-La, Trump, Elysian can all claim they are 5 star project but no other hotel of theres are. Anyway, just my 2 cents

[Marcu]

Totally agree... the views are poor, and when you step outside, you are nowhere... a block away, CTA buses on upper Columbus idling between runs, that's your nightlife.

The MO flagship property in HK was recently renovated (getting rid of the balconies because the pollution has made the open air intolerable) and six months ago the building was plastered with ads for the Chicago project. Personally, I think they were sold a bad location, they didn't do their homework with this one... I can think of a dozen better development sites than this one.

I disagree

The condos are marketed towards older more suburban-minded people. They appreciate not being directly in the hustle of the city but still being a short cab ride away.

[honte]

Trvlr70, other then location what makes you think this project doesnt stand out.
Well, what about the fact that the design basically looks like every other SCB building built for the last 5 years? I would have a hard time purchasing something for 2x price, when it looks so much like the cheaper ones... even if the interiors and service and location were amazing.

[trvlr70]

Trvlr70, other then location what makes you think this project doesnt stand out. I'm a hug fan of Mandarin so I'm willing to debate this. They truly deliver the best hotel experience around. They are also the only real 5 star product for sale here. Shangr-La, Trump, Elysian can all claim they are 5 star project but no other hotel of theres are. Anyway, just my 2 cents
It is all about location to me. Not on the park, the lake, the river, a prominant street. It is tucked away in between other buildings. The location is more suitable for an office building, not a standout hotel property.

[the urban politician]

Well, what about the fact that the design basically looks like every other SCB building built for the last 5 years? I would have a hard time purchasing something for 2x price, when it looks so much like the cheaper ones... even if the interiors and service and location were amazing.

^ You've got to wonder if Mandarin simply overestimated the prices they could set in Chicago? After all, they did projects in NY and Boston prior to this, both much more pricy markets.

I say this because I recall about 3 years ago reading that Trump was going through the same realization--that he had to lower his prices to accommodate Chicago's less expensive market. Both Trump and Mandarin have one major thing in common--this is their first project in the Windy City.

[budman]

Trvlr70, other then location what makes you think this project doesnt stand out. I'm a hug fan of Mandarin so I'm willing to debate this. They truly deliver the best hotel experience around. They are also the only real 5 star product for sale here. Shangr-La, Trump, Elysian can all claim they are 5 star project but no other hotel of theres are. Anyway, just my 2 cents
^This may be true for the Elysian, who doesn't even have one hotel up, but not for Trump, and certainly not for Shangri-La. Mandarin and Shangri-La are like coke and pepsi, or Ferrari and Bentley. Some may prefer one to the other, but there is no true objective standard that makes one better than the other world-wide. Certainly they may differ by location. But, in Chicago, one is close to going vertical and the other is a parking lot. I agree with trvlr70 about the location and views, and I said that when this thread was first started. I hope Mandarin comes to Chicago, and I hope they have a killer building and location...just not sure that this is it.

[budman]

Just a quick few items on the Residences from my knowledge and research. The MO Residences in NY are the highest priced condos in NYC. (Tom Brady just bought one for 14million). The Residences in Boston were completely sold out without any advertising. People who buy into this product really dont care about views. They are very wealthy, high level execs or celebrity types that want anything at anytime and will get it.
^Boston and NY are not Chicago, and the developer has to know this...and so does Mandarin. Success in one location does not guarantee success in another, or at a different date, with different players. Although I don't know too much about the development of the Mandarin MY or Boston properties, so I will leave that discussion to others.

[Mojava]

budman, please point me somewhere that says a Trump or Shangri-La property is rated 5 star. There are rating systems in place by AAA and Mobile, neither of which rate any of those brands 5 star. Please review all these awards that Mandarin has won. Its pretty incredible.

http://www.mandarinoriental.com/hotel/520000012.asp

[museumparktom]

* moderator edit *

this article was already posted in this thread yesterday.

[budman]

budman, please point me somewhere that says a Trump or Shangri-La property is rated 5 star. There are rating systems in place by AAA and Mobile, neither of which rate any of those brands 5 star. Please review all these awards that Mandarin has won. Its pretty incredible.

http://www.mandarinoriental.com/hotel/520000012.asp
^I will check it out for sure...but just for the record, I believe the Mandarin to have an incredible reputation. I will say that I do not think that AAA or Mobil rates hotels in the Eastern Hemisphere, so they would not have rated Shangri-La. Not sure about Trump. But I will get back to you.:cheers: P.S.
I do know at least 2 people who have stayed in both Shangri-La and the Mandarin while travelling in southeast asia, and both preferred Shangri-La. but like I said, I will take a closer look and get back to you.

[budman]

budman, please point me somewhere that says a Trump or Shangri-La property is rated 5 star. There are rating systems in place by AAA and Mobile, neither of which rate any of those brands 5 star. Please review all these awards that Mandarin has won. Its pretty incredible.

http://www.mandarinoriental.com/hotel/520000012.asp
^Mojava - I left you a pm, so as not to bore everyone else wtih our comparison of these fine hotels:)

[the urban politician]

^This may be true for the Elysian, who doesn't even have one hotel up, but not for Trump, and certainly not for Shangri-La. Mandarin and Shangri-La are like coke and pepsi, or Ferrari and Bentley. Some may prefer one to the other, but there is no true objective standard that makes one better than the other world-wide. Certainly they may differ by location. But, in Chicago, one is close to going vertical and the other is a parking lot. I agree with trvlr70 about the location and views, and I said that when this thread was first started. I hope Mandarin comes to Chicago, and I hope they have a killer building and location...just not sure that this is it.


^ All I can say is this--if Lexington Park (a project by some Irish people, I think) way down on Cermak can sell 50% of their units (and they supposedly had a very slow opening day), then I can't imagine how Mandarin couldn't pull this one out

[SamInTheLoop]

^ You've got to wonder if Mandarin simply overestimated the prices they could set in Chicago? After all, they did projects in NY and Boston prior to this, both much more pricy markets.

I say this because I recall about 3 years ago reading that Trump was going through the same realization--that he had to lower his prices to accommodate Chicago's less expensive market. Both Trump and Mandarin have one major thing in common--this is their first project in the Windy City.

True but there's a big difference: Mandarin is not developing its project, and for the actual developers (Palladian), this is their first major project ANYWHERE...

[no-la-usa]

I think its easy to understand why. These people hired a firm out of New York City. Their clearly out of the loop on what people want. I think this project will end up successful; however, I dont understand why they used an out of state broker.

Cheers,
Derek

[Chicago2020]

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/333/0215065ffull20tower2dcosc5.jpg

[Alliance]

Nice render. I wish it was larger though. I feel as if it should stick over the top of Pru2, instead of hiding be hind it.

It is interesting to see the triple peak layout of the skyline change to one central/massive peak and supporting smaller ones.

I'm excited about the change. And all the development in the South Loop makes the skyline so much longer.

[X-fib]

With AON, 2-Prue, Mandarin, Aqua, etc. the district bordered by Michigan Ave., Randolph, the river and Lake Michigan easily surpasses any other American city core in sheer magnitude (save NYC), while it only represents a small percentage of greater area of downtown Chicago. When passing through 20 years ago I commented that Chicago is the Cahokia of modern North America. It is even more so today!

[budman]

I think that the Mandarin could be very adversely affected by the publicity that the Chicago Spire is getting, and stands to lose the most if that project (the Chicago Spire)goes forward. Although Waterview and Trump are competing for the same sorts of customers, they are obviously much farther along than the Mandarin. I think the greater the chances that the Chicago Spire gets built, the less the chances of the Mandarin being built.

[Chi_Coruscant]

MO recently just hired the local brokers to re-energize its efforts to attract the well-heeled Chicago crowd. As for Chicago Spire, Kelleher will focus mostly on international wealthy from Europe and Asia. I think both projects will be built.

[Nowhereman1280]

Even if they can't both get built, I would trade CS for MO any day! Besides, they have already sold 25% of the units for MO even with a shitty sales broker, so I imagine they can scrape together another 35-45% sales to get a loan released on this thing now that they have got someone who knows what they are doing!

[forumly_chgoman]

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/333/0215065ffull20tower2dcosc5.jpg
^^^^^is it me or does the rendering appear a bit short?

I mean last check MO was supposed to be 930 or so which is taller than 2Pru not including 2Pru's spire

[spyguy]

^^From what I've gathered, it's not even 900 feet.

[forumly_chgoman]

really what do you hear?? This is a shame if what you are saying it true

[Mojava]

delete

[ComandanteCero]

really what do you hear?? This is a shame if what you are saying it true

there are lots of unanswered questions about this project, that's why the title thread doesn't give a height.

[Dale]

Shrinking Chicago Syndrome ? Did they catch it from Aqua ?

[Nowhereman1280]

^^^ Ok there is no substance behind the claims that this building has shrunk, it was just a comment that someone made about something they "heard" until we have some other reason to believe that they have changed the design to be shorter than 900', then we'll put it in the title, cut the speculation.

Anyhow, That render that Chicago2020 posted is wayyyyyyy skewed, the proportions are right. Note how the east side of Aon is missing, the only way you would only see one side of Aon (since it is perfectly square) is if it you were directly lined up with that side, which the point of view in that render is not. You can clearly tell it is not lined up directly with the south face of Aon because the Gehry bandshell is almost directly south of Aon and the band shell is clearly wayy off to the left in this render, so we know we are East of Aon an that we should be able to see east wall. However, this does seem to give an accurate feel of the height of MO, note the severe slant of the North south persepective line as shown by the top, east edge of MO, if you extend a line along this top edge of MO toward 2pru, you will see how tall it really is, if moved into perspetive with 2pru. If you do it properly then you can easily see that MO comes nearly exactly to the roof height of 2pru, at the base of the 2pru spire. So if that render is correct, it appears that MO is about the height of the base of the 2 Pru spire.

[chicubs111]

Its hard to believe this building is been out for so long and we still dont have an accurate height figure for it.

[Richardsonhomebuyers]

Yeah the buiding is not going to be 900'. Closer to 885' and 60 floors.

[honte]

^ You seem pretty confident of this... what was the source? Is it measured to the top of the lantern, or the top floor? What happened to their "life at 900 feet" slogan - pure hype?

[kalmia]

Yeah the buiding is not going to be 900'. Closer to 885' and 60 floors.


I don't know where that comes from, but I don't think anyone here has a solid number on this thing - only various numbers from various sources. If you are going to post numbers like that, you should be able to back them up because of the conflicting info out there.

[Richardsonhomebuyers]

I can back them up but I can't post my source. These are the number I saw last.

[honte]

^ Thanks. So, was your height to the tip-top, or just the top floor?

[Richardsonhomebuyers]

top of the lantern.

[DANTHEDISCOMAN]

^ You seem pretty confident of this... what was the source? Is it measured to the top of the lantern, or the top floor? What happened to their "life at 900 feet" slogan - pure hype?


Thats exactly what I'm thinking. I mean they launched their ad campaign with that slogan prominently declaring "900'", but then again that's probably why they ditched their marketing team.

[the urban politician]

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/mag/article.pl?article_id=26907&postDate=2006-11-25
A letter to the editor in this week's Crains:

Successful sales


Mandarin Oriental tower
I was disappointed to see that Crain's came up short with "Slow sales spark change at Mandarin Oriental" (ChicagoBusiness.com, Nov. 6).

I was interviewed for this story, as was Chris Kenny, chief financial officer for Palladian Development. Yet the information we provided for this article was taken out of context to paint a negative picture of a development that has been quite successful to date.

To set the record straight, sales are not "slow" at Mandarin Oriental tower. In fact, since opening in May, Mandarin Oriental has been one of Chicago's best-selling condominium developments, with more than 125 units sold or reserved, a number only a handful of other projects have matched.

Not surprisingly, any facts, figures or sources that would have backed up the writer's claim that the development wasn't performing were nowhere to be found in this article. The result was a story that was misleading and potentially damaging. Crain's needs to aim higher.

Cyndy Salgado
Vice-president of marketing
DMG, a division of Koenig & Strey GMAC
Chicago

[honte]

^ Good news. But this statment: "With more than 125 units sold or reserved, a number only a handful of other projects have matched," what is she talking about? :koko: No timeframe is specified, no price bracket is mentioned, no percentages, so I have no idea where she's getting this.

[Alliance]

This building is clearly having an identity crisis.

[Steely Dan]

^ what makes you say that? it doesn't appear to be having an identity crisis to me. they switched to a local sales team in the hopes of boosting sales, but the fact that 125 units have already been sold doesn't mean that the project was floundering in some terrible way.

[Alliance]

It just seems that everything I read on this is contradictory. I'm glad they switched to a local sales team a while back.

Perhaps its just my selective reading.