[thoraudio]

g-man.... leave.

[thoraudio]

I have mixed feelings about 'smart growth' suburbs. Yes, they're nice and cute and all.... and the purpose of the design is great.

but they have an air of 'white flight' about them. i.e., I want all the good urban stuff, without having to deal with the urbanites.

The same amount of $$$ invested in the Waters and Hampstead, could have been invested in the downtown area bordered by 65 and 85, with much better results for the city.... but we all know there's a reason that wasn't done.

It's the same reason that the bypass/mcgehee road area is being abandoned in spite of the $$$ and demographics in parts of that area....

unfortunately, it's these fractures that keep the city from moving foward, and keep Montgomery bickering and divided. :(

[g-man435]

g-man.... leave.

:P I can't leave. I love Montgomery. I want update pics. Got it? Good. :D

[EXbubba]

Planned communities in and of themselves are not a bad thing, especially in the context of greenfield settlements that exist within their own context. MGM area is just getting involved in this type of development and the Waters is probably the best example - not sure about Hampstead as its village concept is rather English. On the original note of discussion, the state would seem to be primary over the city, but I would also think that this design could be somewhat altered to a more urban one with public services, state or otherwise, in the first floor abutting the sidewalk frontage. One difficulty might be that not much foot traffic will be generated by other buildings with similar shortcomings in design. Upper Dexter has never been very retail oriented - at least since the 50's.
Finally, I live in a "planned community" (circa 1990) and while I can walk to get services, it is at least 15-20 mins unemcumbered via paved trails. The "town center" as it is oftern called is still a strip center and they average about one every mile or so through out this "planned community" and adjoining, so-called "planned communities". Despite having many amenties most of these "plans" seem to lack any vision connected to the original idea of small urban villages in a suburban setting. They are just one step above a subdivsion - albeit a pleasant one. A car is a necessity in most cases because people are often so busy they even schedule their "free" time.
I grew up in capitol hgts and did walk to the grocery, as several small grocers existed within the neighborhood. We used to say.. "we don't live in no subdivsion - we live a a neighborhood!"

[GARDEN MAN]

I have mixed feelings about 'smart growth' suburbs. Yes, they're nice and cute and all.... and the purpose of the design is great.

but they have an air of 'white flight' about them. i.e., I want all the good urban stuff, without having to deal with the urbanites.

The same amount of $$$ invested in the Waters and Hampstead, could have been invested in the downtown area bordered by 65 and 85, with much better results for the city.... but we all know there's a reason that wasn't done.

It's the same reason that the bypass/mcgehee road area is being abandoned in spite of the $$$ and demographics in parts of that area....

unfortunately, it's these fractures that keep the city from moving foward, and keep Montgomery bickering and divided. :(
There will be some good news about "infill" housing options in the Montgomery Advertiser this week. Be "on the lookout"

"bystander2" out.

[Capital Heights]

Mr./Mrs. Capital Heights,

Under that definition of sprawl then Old Cloverdale or the Garden District in their original inception would qualify as sprawl as they both leap-frogged existing development and developed in the greenfield where the trolley car lines were extended to.

As designed, places like The Waters, Hampstead, and others are designed to represent a complete settlement upon completion.

This is exactly the approach taken for early trolley car suburbs that represent some of our country's best historical planning efforts.

Based on your username, it appears that you live in Capital Heights.

What specific daily trips/purchases do you typically meet via walking/biking?

That's a key question because while some people may live closer to downtown Montgomery (or, in my case, Faulkner's Jones School of Law where I teach) than me, they also drive much more often--usually because they cannot safely and/or conveniently walk to get something as simple as a gallon of milk or loaf of bread.

It seems that by your definition if you live within walking distance of a Super Walmart than that is smart growth. I am not saying that Montgomery is a pedestrian friendly city. What I am saying is the solution does not involve moving to a culturally self-contained residential enclave fifteen miles out of town that you only have to leave to go to work or vacation.

I have argued on this board and other places for the RSA to build a more pedestrian friendly building on Dexter. It would appear that at a minimum the proposed building does not have that concrete wall that separates the building from the sidewalk that appears in all the other RSA buildings. This is a good start.

[thoraudio]

There will be some good news about "infill" housing options in the Montgomery Advertiser this week. Be "on the lookout"

"bystander2" out.

good to hear from you. I'll be looking out.

[ExpatBaman]

I have argued on this board and other places for the RSA to build a more pedestrian friendly building on Dexter. It would appear that at a minimum the proposed building does not have that concrete wall that separates the building from the sidewalk that appears in all the other RSA buildings. This is a good start.
The Monroe St side of the building has a concrete wall next to the sidewalk.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a37/expatbaman/Montgomery/RSA_Judicial_North1.jpg

While we're at it:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a37/expatbaman/Montgomery/RSA_Judicial_front.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a37/expatbaman/Montgomery/RSA_Judicial_East1.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a37/expatbaman/Montgomery/RSA_Judicial_West1.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a37/expatbaman/Montgomery/RSA_Judicial3.png

[Chad Emerson]

Okay, Mr./Mrs. Capital Heights, let's try and explain it from the opposite way (I believe that we've discussed this in person but I'm glad to re-discuss this again on-line).

If infill redevelopment is truly the answer, then why hasn't the Capital Heights neighborhood become revitalized.

After all, it has so many of the needed tools:

1. Convenient location to downtown
2. Well-designed interconnected grid layout
3. Historically very well-built and well-designed homes
4. Civic space, including a playground

And, I'm sure that I'm missing some others.

In fact, I'd say that when I first moved here, Capital Heights struck me as one of the best planned neighborhoods in the entire city.

Yet, for the 5+ years I've been here (and even for many years before that as I'm told by locals), the neighborhood has continued to lose value despite all these positive aspects.

So, when you promote infill as the solution, then my first reaction is that I agree in concept.

But, then reality hits and it becomes clear that, if your solution was the practical solution from all aspects, then this gem of a neighborhood called Capital Heights would have regained its luster by now because it is a very well-designed place.

Yet, at some point, planning concepts and ideals must become realities or, if those ideas don't play out, then other ideas must be tried because clinging to unfruitful ideas--no matter how well in concept--generally do not lead to revitalization.

In this city, we have had many of the nation's most successful planners, architects, demographers, engineers, transportation officials and the like all provide excellent advice. Yet, except for a few excellent projects like the A&P development or the Phoenix lofts, very little has actually been done on the private side of the equation (alot of this probably has to do with the fact that, even when an infill development like the A&P is proposed, the developer has to fight ridiculous municipal bureaucracy just to do the right thing).

Ultimately, I see all of these similar sized cities across the Southeast and the country as a whole realizing dramatic redevelopment (see Greeneville, S.C. or Chattanooga, TN as two examples) and simply wonder why hasn't Montgomery realized these same levels of improvement and investment?

My family and I have come to really love this city and that makes it even harder to see so much of this potential remain unrealized.

[Capital Heights]

Okay, Mr./Mrs. Capital Heights, let's try and explain it from the opposite way this comes off as a little arrogant and Bronneresque, I would prefer that we have a conversation I do not think that I particularly need you to explain anything to me(I believe that we've discussed this in person but I'm glad to re-discuss this again on-line). I do not believe we have ever discussed anything in person.

If infill redevelopment is truly the answer, then why hasn't the Capital Heights neighborhood become revitalized. This is my point exactly, too much wealth is leaving the city for the perceived safety and homogeneaty of eastern and northern suburbs. Particularly damaging to the goose that laid the golden egg are the suburbs outside the taxing authority of the city. This wealth transfer out of the city renders the city less able to provide the needed services to an aging and more needy population. Those who remain get more frustrated and they, too, leave. It is a cycle of decline. The only hope for salvaging Montgomery is a vibrant downtown that encourages high income people to not move to the suburbs but to move near the city center. Hopefully this is beginning to happen. ALthough, there have been some damaging setbacks recently. Most notably are the merger of Regions and SouthTrust Banks and Colonial Bank moving its headquarters out to the suburbs.

After all, it has so many of the needed tools:

1. Convenient location to downtown
2. Well-designed interconnected grid layout
3. Historically very well-built and well-designed homes
4. Civic space, including a playground

And, I'm sure that I'm missing some others.

In fact, I'd say that when I first moved here, Capital Heights struck me as one of the best planned neighborhoods in the entire city.

Yet, for the 5+ years I've been here (and even for many years before that as I'm told by locals), the neighborhood has continued to lose value despite all these positive aspects. I do not believe Capital Heights has lost value.
So, when you promote infill as the solution, then my first reaction is that I agree in concept.

But, then reality hits and it becomes clear that, if your solution was the practical solution from all aspects, then this gem of a neighborhood called Capital Heights would have regained its luster by now because it is a very well-designed place. My point is that the design of the neighborhood is not what is important. It is the location of the neighborhood. If a perfectly designed neighborhood is outside the city it does very little good for the city. But, even a poorly designed neighborhood in the city can do much good.

Yet, at some point, planning concepts and ideals must become realities or, if those ideas don't play out, then other ideas must be tried because clinging to unfruitful ideas--no matter how well in concept--generally do not lead to revitalization.

In this city, we have had many of the nation's most successful planners, architects, demographers, engineers, transportation officials and the like all provide excellent advice. Yet, except for a few excellent projects like the A&P development or the Phoenix lofts, very little has actually been done on the private side of the equation (alot of this probably has to do with the fact that, even when an infill development like the A&P is proposed, the developer has to fight ridiculous municipal bureaucracy just to do the right thing).

Ultimately, I see all of these similar sized cities across the Southeast and the country as a whole realizing dramatic redevelopment (see Greeneville, S.C. or Chattanooga, TN as two examples) and simply wonder why hasn't Montgomery realized these same levels of improvement and investment? I think that Montgomery uniquely suffers from a social and civic adolescence that is far beyond my pay grade to explain. I do, however, think that forced racial integration in the 50's and 60's, while good for the nation and absolutely the right thing to do, left this city without having developed its own maturity as far as race relations are concerned. Although we have progressed, there is still a racial distrust not far under the surface. This "two Montgomeries" has allowed political, social, and business leaders to exploit the fears and prejudaces of the masses and maintain control without much of a social conscience. Futher, I imagine part of the anger at Bronner is the lingering resentment from some of Montgomery's old money families who used to rent office space to the state but lost those lucrative deals when Bronner started to build office space. Finally, for whatever reasons, for many years Montgomery's political leadership was ultra-conservative and chose to exercise very limited government. There was essentially no civic investment in downtown or anywhere else for that matter. There was no Hyundai, no Gateway Park, no riverfront, and certainly no downtown baseball. It has taken several years of progressive leadership to begin to dig out of a twenty-two year hole of stagnation.

My family and I have come to really love this city and that makes it even harder to see so much of this potential remain unrealized. My family and I love this city too. We choose to live at its core and try to help it heal itself. We do not live in some fantasy neighborhood, work in an ivory tower, and occasional soil our hands with the dirty business of building community.

I hope this is not becoming personal. I am thankful that you and your family feel such a part of the community. I respect a diversity of opinions and points of view. I simply wish more people would choose to stay and fight the good fight rather than run from thier fears and in doing so damage Montgomery's vitality and future.

[bystander1]

I have mixed feelings about 'smart growth' suburbs. Yes, they're nice and cute and all.... and the purpose of the design is great.

but they have an air of 'white flight' about them. i.e., I want all the good urban stuff, without having to deal with the urbanites.

The same amount of $$$ invested in the Waters and Hampstead, could have been invested in the downtown area bordered by 65 and 85, with much better results for the city.... but we all know there's a reason that wasn't done.

100% agreed on all points thoraudio.

It's the same reason that the bypass/mcgehee road area is being abandoned in spite of the $$$ and demographics in parts of that area....

unfortunately, it's these fractures that keep the city from moving foward, and keep Montgomery bickering and divided. :(


This despite the fact that the area is diversified and growing with people moving up in income and upgrading their lifestyle. They are still building 300k-500k near Montgomery Mall long after some developers led the retailers to the "newer" places...

[g-man435]

^^Any update pics? :D

[bystander1]

There will be some good news about "infill" housing options in the Montgomery Advertiser this week. Be "on the lookout"

"bystander2" out.

...is it...really you?! :D

Glad you joined us, dude. :tup:

[bystander1]

The Monroe St side of the building has a concrete wall next to the sidewalk.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a37/expatbaman/Montgomery/RSA_Judicial_North1.jpg

While we're at it:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a37/expatbaman/Montgomery/RSA_Judicial_front.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a37/expatbaman/Montgomery/RSA_Judicial_East1.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a37/expatbaman/Montgomery/RSA_Judicial_West1.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a37/expatbaman/Montgomery/RSA_Judicial3.png

Hey expatbaman, Thanks for the pics.

[midwestrabbi]

How is the idea of living in downtown working? Before I moved, there was talk about Loft apartments being developed. About thirty five years ago I lived at the Capital Towers, at the time a nice classy place. Do you think there will be a demand for retail to return to the downtown area. About a decade ago several of us were looking into the possibility of opening a Grocery store in downtown Montgomery. We surveyed downtown stores in Bham ( at the time there was a Bruno company store close to U A B ) and Atlanta, and even Columbus Ga. We came to the conclusion that the population base needed to be over 7,500 living in the downtown area for this to work. Another survey that we took showed that 95% of the people who work in the downtown area do not go outside of the building that they work in, they drive into the parking deck and at the end of the day they drive out of the deck never going out of their building, we talked to people from the Capital complex to the bank buildings on Commerce. As you see there is no medium grocery store in downtown, because we ( about 7 of us ) did not think this would work nor was there any interest in it. I love a active downtown, shoppes, stores and so forth. I have noticed one thing though, Many years ago Bham had a simular problem, they had to change peoples opinion of their downtown. I understand that they have several buildings that are being renovated for people to live in, the old First Federal Building ( 25 floors ), the Old Blachs Store ( 4 floors ) , the old Cabana Hotel ( 20 floors ) , and the ( 8 floor ) old Pizitz Dept Store and H Q, among others. With vision downtown Montgomery could come back, I know that it is possible because I was reading the other day that here in Denver we have over 100,000 people living downtown. One more thing, with Downtown Montgomery coming back it lets me know never give up on what you believe. For years when all of the business were leaving and going south and east no one ever thought life could be breathed back into downtown ( at the time even the state was building out of the Capital complex , Highway Dept, ADEM and others ) I come to Montgomery several times a year ( to see my grand Kids ) the first place I go is Downtown Montgomery, bring it back with dignity, make it a destination , not just a place that you can drive thru. I love to see the interest on this thread that you have with downtown Montgomery, please keep it up.

[Chad Emerson]

We do not live in some fantasy neighborhood, work in an ivory tower, and occasional soil our hands with the dirty business of building community.

I hope this is not becoming personal. I am thankful that you and your family feel such a part of the community. I respect a diversity of opinions and points of view. Mr./Mrs. Capital Heights, this is an amazing quote. You say that you don't want things to become personal then you accuse people of living in fantasy neighborhoods and working in ivory towers and occassionally soiling their hands.

Amazingly, judgmental. As if, unless someone subscribes to your theories, they are living in a fantasy.

That said, I am sincerely interested in your strategy for revitalizing Capital Heights and other inner ring suburbs.

My earlier post mentioned all of the excellent attributes that it possesses. Great location, layout, buildings. So what is the plan to get people to return?

After all, you can't force people to live somewhere. So you have to make the place compelling enough for them to choose to live there.

Seemingly, more than many of the inner ring suburbs, Capital Heights has excellent "bones" in place.

So, please share what the strategy is to build on those bones and draw people back to that neighborhood?

[Capital Heights]

After all, you can't force people to live somewhere.

Correct. You cannot force people to live somewhere. It has to be their choice.

There is one thing I do that is more valuable than any ten things theorists and so called experts do: I actually choose to live in an inner city neighborhood. Rather than simply talk the talk.......I actually walk the walk.

[Chad Emerson]

That's fine but neighborhoods like that won't be revitalized without an actual strategy to convince others to do the same.

Right now, despite all the abundant benefits that I've mentioned about Capital Heights (again, location/design/buildings), a very fair question is why have others not made the same decision as you?

What about Capital Heights, despite these benefits, has not drawn a critical mass back to that neighborhood?

Rather than disparage others and where they live, you should consider a strategy to answer that question. That would simply more likely to convince others to move there rather than criticizing people and where they currently live.

From my perspective, I believe the following perceptions lead people not to make the same choice you did:

1. Perception that Capital Heights is unsafe
2. Perception that there is not as good/interesting retail as there is in other inner ring suburbs like Old Cloverdale
3. Perception that the schools zoned for Capital Heights are not good

Again, I'm not saying these are all true, but that these are statements I've heard before about why people are not interested in moving to an inner ring suburb like Capital Heights.

It would seem to be a better strategic tact to create compelling responses to counter these perceptions rather than just telling others that they don't walk the walk or live in fantasy places.

If you can develop compelling responses, then those can be used as a framework to begin the revitalization process when you bundle those responses together with the existing benefits like location.

One final note: suggesting that where I currently live is a fantasy place is a really ignorant thing to say. More than anywhere else that we have lived, our neighbors here create a strong social support system. When our 1 year old was hospitalized, we had numerous neighbors offer to keep our other two children, visit us at the hospital, bring us food, pray for our child's health.

Similarly, when my wife gave birth to our third child, we received the same social support. Same thing when our friend who was 7 months pregnant passed out while at our house. Our neighbors who were paramedics rushed over to help even before the ambulance arrived. And, each year when my brother and his family return to the States on missionary furlough from Togo, West Africa, we have numerous neighbors offering to host them for meals, lodging, and the like.

Ultimately, we know everyone on our block and most of the surrounding blocks by first and last name. We have shared meals with them. Spent evenings, Bible studies, holidays, funerals, weddings, and many other types of important events with them.

We lean on them and they lean on us. We share things, work together on things, and--in general--help each other out.

That is exactly what community has historically meant. A place where you know and are supported by your neighbors.

So, before you derisively label places, you should take the time to learn about its people and how they form a community together.

[Capital Heights]

Your diatribe assumes none of these community characteristics occur in Capitol Heights. Who is ignorant? I recall about a year ago a Capitol Heights family was burned out of their home. I remember reading in the newspaper that the neighborhood community instantly rallied and helped this family with lodging, food, and clothes. This is but one example of community.

Your argument also assumes that noboby chooses to live in Capitol Heights. I just rode through there this morning. It appears to be a healthy neighborhood. I assume by your statements that you have a negative impression of Capitol Heights. You apparantly think it is a neighborhood in decline with no elements of community. Maybe so, although I doubt it.

I wonder, how would that neighborhood be different if ten families such as yours would move in with your wealth, your sense of community, your education, your compassion, and your passion for smart growth?

It just seems to me, and please forgive me if I am wrong, that as long as you live, and work, and worship, in a distant community - whether it be Pike Road or Prattville, or Birmingham - than all of this is merely an academic exercise.

[Chad Emerson]

Mr./Mrs. Capital Heights,

I agree that all of these also occur in Capitol Heights and many of the other inner ring suburbs and, for that matter, the original downtown neighborhoods.

My "diatribe" is that you label places as "fantasy" when, in fact, real people creating real community live there.

The reason that we did not move to Capitol Heights or another inner ring suburb is because of the schools zoned for that area.

My wife and I are committed to sending our children to public schools.

However, the elementaries and other public schools zoned for these inner ring suburbs underperform other public schools in the region. Now, one may argue that if we would send our kids to those schools, then an incremental improvement could start.

However, call it whatever you want, but I'm first and foremost interested in my children getting the best possible public education regardless of where that lead us to living.

Currently, we were fortunate because our oldest just started kindergarten and was able to get into a magnet program. So, we could live in an inner ring suburb. But, then if we move there, then what if one of our next two children don't get in?

The point being is that proponents of Capitol Heights and other inner ring suburbs need to begin providing responses to these perceptions if they want to generate the critical mass to revitalize these neighborhoods even more.

You started this conversation a page ago by essentially telling me that my opinion really didn't amount to much because I didn't live where you think I should live.

Do you really think posting that kind of judgmental statement is going to attract my family or anyone else to live there? By telling us that our opinions and efforts really don't matter unless we meet your criteria.

C'mon. Let's try and get focused on the real point:

What is a Capitol Heights strategy for countering the perceptions that have limited the scope of revitalizing that historically great neighborhood? That seems like the most pressing issue at hand.

[g-man435]

Update pics? :D

[Capital Heights]

Once again, it seems to me that if you hold a job in Montgomery and choose to live in an upstart community based in another town that is aggressively pursuing its own public education system with the effect of pulling out the wealthier, healthier, and better prepared students and reducing the amount of public financing available to educate the students that are left behind then you are part of the problem of a declining city; not part of the solution.

To set the record straight; I believe I suggested you would have more credibility on the issue if you actually lived in Montgomery not some border town that actually poses a threat to the longterm health of Montgomery.

[Chad Emerson]

Okay, fine.

But, what about my question?

What is the strategy for addressing these perceptions that are limiting the ability of many of Montgomery's inner ring suburbs from realizing a stronger revitalization?

Telling people they should move is not a strategy.

Convincing people to do so requires one.

So, you can be frustrated where people live or you can develop a strategy for convincing them to move.

What is the strategy that you've developed to advance your position?

I am sincerely interested in hearing more about it.

[g-man435]

^^Well, what about my question. ;)

[thoraudio]

^^Well, what about my question. ;)

you're a moron.... how about my answer.

[g-man435]

^^Well, you won't take update pics so I have no choice. :D

[thoraudio]

Chad,

I've got to agree with Capitol Heights here. You've got a great community out there, and that's wonderful.

But does The Waters add, or subtract from the over all community of Montgomery?

It's created an enclave of 'elites'. Is it more community oriented then, say, Wynnlakes or Deer Creek? Yes.

But it's still exclusive, pricing itself above the reaches of 90+% of the river region.

It's pulled people from the overall community.

Chad, you've got to realize, 'smart growth' is about more than your carbon footprint, having good next door neighbors, and faux Arts and Crafts houses.

[Chad Emerson]

I know that my income is not in the 90% bracket for the region so I disagree with that premise of The Waters only catering to the top 90% of something.

Frankly, when I look at MLS listings for the Garden District (the type of infill that Capital Heights seems to highlight), I see costs per square foot that readily compare to The Waters.

Regardless though, the point remains: why is a historically great neighborhood like Capitol Heights not reaching a critical mass of revitalization?

People can complain about The Waters but, if the suggested numbers are to be believed, then that's just a small, sliver of the overall River Region population.

The more interesting (and concerning) fact is that all of these single-use, auto-centric subdivisions that dot Elmore, Autauga, and East Montgomery are more compelling to River Region home purchasers than these original ring suburbs.

In other words, despite the fact that you can get a house in Capitol Heights or Cottage Hill or Cloverdale for a similar price, many more River Region residents are choosing Halycon or Bridlebrook or any variety of Watts New Homes houses.

You can point fingers at The Waters all you want but it doesn't eliminate the fact that fewer people are moving into downtown housing or inner ring suburb housing than are not.

Despite the fact that Capitol Heights and its ilk offer wonderfully designed and constructed homes and neighborhoods with very convenient locations.

Unfortunately, this is a trend that is not abating, except for a few areas in Old Cloverdale. Indeed, by and large, those homebuyers with the ability to move are vacating downtown and the inner ring suburban developments for East Montgomery and Elmore/Autauga and even Auburn (again, b/c of schools)

Yet, rather than discuss this troubling trend and strategizing how to counter it, people want to demonize the less than 100 households that live at The Waters.

C'mon folks. We have some major challenges here in Montgomery. I travel extensively around the country and the only city of this size that comes close to lacking walkable urban environments is Jackson, Mississippi.

Beyond that city, Montgomery is getting left in the dust of many similar-sized cities like Columbia, S.C. or Raleigh, N.C. or Louisville, KY.

That in turn is leading to a "brain drain" where fewer and fewer young adults are interested in relocating here. Indeed, I see that all the time here at the law school. For many students, practicing in Montgomery is a fourth choice after B'ham, Huntsville, and Mobile.

Here is a truism that I have witnessed in every part of this country: successful places are generally demonstrated by successful regions. They feed off of each other to provide an improved whole.

However, if we use the Capital Heights approach, then those people who live in Prattville or Pike Road or Tallassee or Wetumpka and the like are causing Montgomery's problems because they don't live in the city limits.

To which my response is simple: most people wouldn't have moved there if Montgomery would aggressively revitalize its downtown and inner ring suburbs rather than point fingers and blame.

But, since Capital Heights and others don't seem interested in discussing strategic solutions, I'll propose a couple from out here in the hinterlands:

1. Micro-policing. This is a law enforcement approach where a city distributes numerous mini-stations or substations throughout the inner ring and downtown neighborhoods. Not one or even two but 15 or 20. The idea is to bring more people closer to a fixed, permanent police location (as opposed to our current dominant model where the policemen travel around in cars).

This approach could go along ways toward addressing the perceived safety issues in downtown and midtown neighborhoods.

2. Or, how about increasing the number of magnet schools to guarantee access to a magnet school to increase the odds that a child will get accepted which, in turn, gives a parent more confidence to move to an inner ring neighborhood where the existing, non-magnet school is underperforming.

Are these excellent solutions?

I have no idea.

But, they start the conversations. They begin the discussions and research.

They strive to a strategy of solutions rather than blame.

I hope others will join in and propose ideas, too.

I sincerely mean that.

[thoraudio]

From www.thewaters.al.com , the least expensive 'house' that I see (as opposed to a townhome) is a 3/2.5 for $248,000.

At 6.5% interest, that means P/I of $1500/month. Add escrow, subtract a down payment, and payments will be about $1700/month. That means that family income should be about $75,000/year. Which, according to this site (http://www.hellomontgomery.com/Economic.cfm), represents about 8%.

This isn't about demonizing The Waters anymore than you're demonizing Capitol Heights.

As I mentioned earlier, I've got mixed feelings about the smart growth suburbs. Houses look nice, nice amenities, etc....


BUT... but... what's your definition of community? Is it the 10 families around you? Or the 100? Or the 1000? Or the 10,000?

Is smart growth about feeling good about yourself?



For reasons explained earlier in the this thread, I live in a tradition 'burb' neighborhood in Prattville. I don't have a house that addresses the street 'right', or a coffee shop within walking distance, or exposed wood beams on my porch etc.... but my kids still play with the neighbors, I know the people at House of Java, see people I know at Wal-mart and ball games etc.... all from a non-smart growth community.

Do I wish my neighborhood was more walkable, with all those amenities... yep.

But that doesn't make a community.

Someday, I want to post a thread on the Selma community. The area close to the river is a picture postcard for 'smart growth'. Walkable, streets well addressed..... mixture of large and small houses.... and rotting away.

Community is about more than architecture.

[Brown Duckz]

Guys we might need a discussion thread too. :haha:

[g-man435]

^^Where have you been brownduckz? I thought you died. What in the world are you guys talking about? You don't need money to buy a house. All you need is a signature. :D

[Chad Emerson]

This isn't about demonizing The Waters anymore than you're demonizing Capitol Heights. My gosh, Wes. The breakdown in communication is apparently so complete here that I should just leave.

I keep repeating about all the excellent aspects of Capitol Heights that would seem to make it a perfect neighborhood for you and your family to live. I've restated them in almost every post I've made. And, they have very little to do with architecture.

Yet, you--like me--choose to live outside of Montgomery's downtown neighborhoods and inner ring suburbs.

WHY?

That's what I keep asking--WHY?

Why is a place like Capitol Heights with great homes, great layout, great location not the obvious choice for people like our families?

That is such an incredibly crucial question to answer because it will form the basis for a strategy to addressing these issues.

After all, let me be perfectly clear: I would love the convenience of living in Capitol Heights--just a short jaunt down Atlanta Highway to the law school for me.

The same goes for Cottage Hill.

And, I suspect that I'm not alone at all in this respect.

But, rather than discussing The Waters, we should be discussing how to reverse the perceptions/realities that keep people like us from moving to this more sustainable places like Montgomery's original inner ring suburbs.

I've offered two ideas.

Does anyone have any others?

Or maybe this approach will work: I'll be glad to provide coffee and give a walking tour of The Waters this Saturday morning to explain the aspects that I believe need to be replicated in order to produce more sustainable growth.

Say 9am and meet at the market at The Waters?

If anyone is interested, you can email me at chaddemerson@gmail.com or send me a Private Message via this board. We can look at everything from layout to amenities to lots of non-architecture stuff (like how, four doors down from me, lives a single guy who rents an affordable garage apartment).

I'll be at the market at 9am. Maybe we can further this discussion in person since it is not working well via email.

Chad.

[g-man435]

^^Because it's too expensive to live downtown. Duh.

[Chad Emerson]

...related to the proposed RSA project will be held on Tuesday evening at the Hank Williams Museum auditorium in Downtown Montgomery.

Here's a link to the new blog administered by Nathan Norris that is organizing the forum:

http://downtownmontgomery.wordpress.com/

[bystander1]

...2. Or, how about increasing the number of magnet schools to guarantee access to a magnet school to increase the odds that a child will get accepted which, in turn, gives a parent more confidence to move to an inner ring neighborhood where the existing, non-magnet school is underperforming.




I have a question.

If a non-magnet school is underperforming, does it mean your child will automatically underperform there? After all, there are children that are over-achieving at the inner-ring schools too...

[Chad Emerson]

No, of course not.

I personally would rather have my child be middle of the road at a high-scoring school than top of the class at a lower-scoring school.

I know that others could certainly have other approaches though.

However, I have found it interesting that, unless you are zoned to one or two East Montgomery elementary schools, most people who can afford to send their children to private school in Montgomery opt to do so---with magnet school attendance being the one exception (or, of course, they move to Elmore, Autauga, or even as far away as Lee County).

Where we moved from in Knoxville, a much, much larger percentage of children whose parents could afford to send them to private school still attended public school.

That meant that there were many fewer public schools in Knoxville.

Right now though, I think the number of families that live in Old Cloverdale or the Garden District and send their children to non-magnet public schools is very low. That's extremely unfortunate but, as a parent, I also can understand if the zoned for public school is having low performance rates.

[bystander1]

...Rather than disparage others and where they live, you should consider a strategy to answer that question. That would simply more likely to convince others to move there rather than criticizing people and where they currently live.

...It would seem to be a better strategic tact to create compelling responses to counter these perceptions rather than just telling others that they don't walk the walk or live in fantasy places.

...If you can develop compelling responses, then those can be used as a framework to begin the revitalization process when you bundle those responses together with the existing benefits like location.

...My "diatribe" is that you label places as "fantasy" when, in fact, real people creating real community live there.

...You started this conversation a page ago by essentially telling me that my opinion really didn't amount to much because I didn't live where you think I should live.

...Do you really think posting that kind of judgmental statement is going to attract my family or anyone else to live there? By telling us that our opinions and efforts really don't matter unless we meet your criteria.

By the way Chad, do you think the tatics you say Capitol Heights is using will work to change Bronner's mind on the RSA Judicial project?
After all, it was the same type of tactic you used on Bronner (RSA) in your ALABAMA VOICES editorial in the Advertiser on January 7th, 2008.

[Chad Emerson]

My approach in that editorial (for which I've received alot of positive feedback and, this is the first apparent negative one) was as follows:

1. Commend what RSA has done well (the resorts).

2. Explain what they have done wrong in two concise ways.

3. Provide other examples of how it could be done.

4. Never use Dr. Bronner's name (or any other name) so as to not make it focused on a person rather than an entity.

I think its pretty clear from the responses over the last couple of days that this board feels as if things in Montgomery are going well, the RSA project is a good thing, and those of us who don't live in the city limits should not get involved.

Okay, that's fine. I'll step away from the board.

Best of luck going forward. I sincerely hope that you all can help improve Montgomery as it remains terribly underperforming.

Take care to all, Chad.

[Capital Heights]

This is not a helpful turn of events.

[g-man435]

^^I still have no idea what we're talking about. :( Did a highrise die or something?

[ExpatBaman]

New group to meet on RSA plans

By Cosby Woodruff

Citizens for Downtown Revitalization, a new group aimed to promoting its vision for developing Montgomery, will hold its first meeting Tuesday to address the Retirement Systems of Alabama’s plans for the Judicial Building.

The group will meet at 5:30 p.m. at the Hank Williams Museum Assembly Hall at 118 Commerce Street.

Nathan Norris, who is heading the group, will speak, as will Catherine Farmer Light, superintendent of the Selma to Montgomery National Historic Trail.


Montgomery Advertiser (http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080121/NEWS/80121026/-1/NEWS05)

[thoraudio]

I think its pretty clear from the responses over the last couple of days that this board feels as if things in Montgomery are going well, the RSA project is a good thing, and those of us who don't live in the city limits should not get involved.

Okay, that's fine. I'll step away from the board.

Best of luck going forward. I sincerely hope that you all can help improve Montgomery as it remains terribly underperforming.

Take care to all, Chad.


Seriously, Chad, no need to take your ball and go home. There's a thing called an opinion, and everybody's differs..... diversity, remember?

Bystander likes the RSA building, and I don't. Guess what? I hadn't called him any names and he hasn't called me any either. We can discuss the merits of the opposite view points. I just happen to know that I'm right :D

Same with our view points on suburban smart growth developments. I never said they were all bad, never insulted you, just voiced and defended my position that they are not a panacea for all that ails Montgomery.

Montgomery has many issues, and there is no, one, band-aid cure. Plopping a coffee shop into the middle of Capitol Heights isn't going to fix the thug culture anymore than throwing money at schools is going to remove the racism.

Racism and thug culture feed off each other and compound the problems.... and there is no easy answer. Thug culture leads to violence and a sense of insecurity... that leads to abandonment... which breeds hate and resentment... which leads to a thug culture. We're paying for the sins of our past.

I've seriously considered moving to the Capitol Heights area. I've got family that lives there, and there's a beautiful house for sale about 20 feet from my church. It supports the city, it saves gas, etc... But there are issues that I consider.... This pre-teen wanna be gang that my sister's kids have to deal with, crime, and other issues you have to deal with in a relatively low income area. I don't have to deal with that here.... it's a tough, tough decision.

However, open and honest and friendly discussion can breed ideas and change.

Don't leave or get upset, just because somebody disagree's with you.

[Capital Heights]

I concur Thoraudio. These are serious issues and it is easy to become frustrated. But the consequences are too important for any of us who truly care to thow in the towel and walk away. I, too, believe that one day you will all see the wisdom of my argument. And upon further consideration......maybe a coffee shop on Pennsylvania is a good idea...

[Brown Duckz]

I live on the Morningview side of Federal Drive, and this area is experiencing a lot of "remodeling" by younger couples. I know the other side has some of it's own..... but it's kind of hit and miss.

[kevinlpugh]

You guys are really passionate about your positions. Might I make a suggestion... perhaps this discussion should be moved to a different thread... I went away for a couple of days and you guys are hard at it!

Just my $0.02

KP

[bystander1]

Man, just when Chad finally began to open up and make his true feelings known about his position and reasons for smart-growth, he up-and-leaves.

He encouraged this board to start discussing, thinking, and talking again about inner ring smart-growth, but then says he doesn't want to discuss it anymore...

:shrug:

I think his insight was interesting...

[kevinlpugh]

Officials afraid Wares Ferry Road project may hinder outer loop

By Jill Nolin




The state is looking into an interstate project to ease traffic congestion in east Montgomery, but local officials are worried it will interfere with the long-awaited outer loop.

Engineers with the Alabama Department of Transportation are studying the possible benefits of connecting Interstate 85 to Wares Ferry Road. The purpose of the project would be to ease traffic on other corridors, such as Chantilly Parkway and Atlanta Highway.

But elected officials on the city and county level are concerned that the project, which is estimated to cost about $35 million, would interfere with the more than $300 million outer loop, a project they believe would bring about the greater good.

The outer loop project has been in the works for more than a decade. It would begin in east Montgomery at Interstate 85 and curve south down through the county and west to U.S. 80.

The Wares Ferry Road project is still in the beginning phase.

The state agency contacted Montgomery County Commission members and city officials recently about the proposal and asked if they could foresee any problems with it.

They did.

County Commission Chairman Todd Strange said he is concerned that it might be an "either/or" situation.

Both Strange and Montgomery Mayor Bobby Bright have made it clear that they see the outer loop as a priority, and fear the Wares Ferry Road project could threaten the future progress of the outer loop.

"We are trying to understand the relative connectivity of the two (projects)," Strange said. "If it's both, we're fine."

The plan

Currently, Wares Ferry Road crosses over Interstate 85 near the Mount Meigs community on the east side of Montgomery.

It's a mostly rural part of town, with only a few small homes in the immediate area. North of the interstate is Wares Ferry Road, which curves back to the northwest and intersects Atlanta Highway near Forest Hills; on the other side is Pike Road, which intersects Vaughn Road.

"The purpose of this project is to provide a more direct access point to the interstate system than the current access point at Mitylene. Future growth models validate a necessity for a new interchange in this area," states a letter the Alabama agency sent to the County Commission.

The letter also states, "This area is experiencing rapid growth with several large residential and commercial developments ongoing and others planned for the near future."

Engineers will first explore the logistics of the project, said agency spokesman Tony Harris.

"If it is feasible, they will look at how an interchange might be designed and how it might pull traffic away from other congestion points and provide convenient access to the interstate in a way that reduces traffic flow in other places," Harris said.

This process could take three to five years to complete. Harris added that the Wares Ferry Road project is part of a long-term, continual planning process that includes hundreds of projects across the state.

Give and take

More than $60 million already has been invested in the $300 million-plus outer loop project, but it has been stalled for the past few years and prospects for progress in the near future are uncertain.

Harris said the project has been halted because there is not a dedicated stream of funding available.

"I can understand why some would like to see the outer loop advance -- I would like to see it advance also -- but we've got other needs that we have to address," Harris said.

State Rep. Thad McClammy, D-Montgomery, said the outer loop won't suffer because of the Wares Ferry Road project, and he's got an idea for funding it.

"The extension of 85 is a whole different ballgame. One of them is apples and the other is oranges," said McClammy, who called the east-side traffic congestion an interior problem. "There is a need for both."

On Jan. 15, McClammy prefiled a bill before the state Legislature that would allow Montgomery County to create a toll authority, which would help support the outer loop project.

It's the third time McClammy has submitted such legislation. Gov. Bob Riley vetoed the bill in 2006. Last year, the bill made it through the House but didn't pass the Senate before the session ended.

"This year, it's coming out of the shoot. We're hoping to get it up and going," McClammy said.

McClammy said the time is right for a toll road authority.

"Nobody likes tolls but at the same time, everybody wants roads," he said. "I think reality has set in. ... The economy is pretty good but it's not so good that you'll be able to take on that kind of project.

"There would probably have to be tolls of some degree in order for it to be successful," he added.

Strange said the county has been discussing the issue of funding the outer loop with the governor's office and state transportation officials. He's hopeful that in a month or so, there will be a local-state proposal to take to U.S. Sen. Richard Shelby's office.

[bystander1]

Wow. we posted this article at the same time.


This project is way more than a decade old and something needs to be done on completing this overdue road like yesterday.
ALDOT owes Montgomery for this project because of all the allocated money it stole from the outer loop over the years for, as they say, "other needs that we have to address".

Heck! The outer loop has been the "other need that had to be addressed" over fifteen years ago!!!...

[bystander1]

January 21, 2008



Little house represents big progress for Montgomery neighborhood

By Teri Greene
terigreene@gannett.com

It doesn't look that big. The cute, three-bedroom dwelling on Ross Street, once a shotgun house, has been expanded to 1,200 square feet. That's hardly a mansion.

Still, what it represents to the people of the Centennial Hill neighborhood in Montgomery is nothing short of monumental. The house, the second residential renovation by the Centennial Hill Gardening Project, is the first that will have its own real estate listing.

In a neighborhood where 10 years ago there was little more than dilapidation and neglect, this modest house represents hope, said Donald Jenkins, executive director of The Centennial Hill Gardening Project Inc.

The nonprofit organization has worked for the better part of a decade to improve the Centennial Hill community. Renovation and renewal of existing historic homes is aimed at bringing in residents who otherwise might not have considered moving into the neighborhood, inviting diversity, enthusiasm and further growth, Jenkins said.

The house next door to the latest residential renovation was the first completed project, but it sold so quickly (to a neighborhood couple who had watched from their windows as the property was transformed) that there was no need to list it.

The newest house, however, will become the latest listing from Sandra Nickel Realtors. It's a mix of the old and the very modern.

Using the 75-to-80-year-old "shell" of the existing shotgun structure and preserving such original elements as a tiled fireplace in the living room, workers expanded the home and added modern amenities.

Throughout the home are 9 1/2-foot ceilings and light coming through windows on all sides, making a relatively small space seem much larger. There is a spacious kitchen with brand-new appliances, cabinetry and hardwood floors and a flat-panel TV on the wall as part of the package.

The house has central air and heat, and in a small nook sits a modern, stacked washer and dryer. An all-new bathroom with a garden tub with whirlpool links two small bedrooms. The spacious master bedroom has its own bath and a sizeable walk-in closet.

And then there is a deck in the back -- 10 feet deep and 24 feet wide.

"When people walk into the house, they can't help but say, 'This is a nice house,'" said Jenkins, who grew up in this neighborhood and has for years lived in a renovated house a block over on Watts Street.

"Not 'a nice house for this area.' Just a nice, 1,200-square-foot house," he said.

In addition to its new amenities, another plus is the house's price: from $58,000-$60,000, Jenkins said. What this project is doing, he said, is redefining "affordable housing."

The renovation, which took a little more than two months, was funded in part by a Community Development Block Grant. Such grants aim to improve the living conditions of dilapidated areas.

But despite occasional bad press and a longstanding "bad reputation" because of nearby locations popularly seen as "crime hot spots," the neighborhood is steadily becoming anything but dilapidated, said Amina Kilgore Hall, project director.

"This is a great location," she said. "If you have any worries about whether to live in Centennial Hill, there is no need for them."

She cited the strong neighborhood bond and the Centennial Hill organization, based in the Joe "Alabama" Morris House, which serves as a community center/educational resource.

Kilgore Hall said the family that moves in to this house will get in on the ground floor of a movement that, once begun, will grow at a surprising pace.

"It will just be a domino effect from there," she said.

Jenkins said the classic setting -- people sitting out on their front porches, waving and speaking to their neighbors -- is "the very in vogue thing right now." Developers who have cashed in on this trend are building huge, nostalgic neighborhoods, "carbon copies," he said, and charging five to 10 times more than folks would be asked to pay for the real thing in Centennial Hill.

Jenkins calls himself "a preservationist, but not a purist," meaning that he knows that not every house in the neighborhood is a candidate for renovation. But the ones that are -- those are the ones he wants to celebrate.

"We don't complain about what's going on. Crime is everywhere. Despair is everywhere. Dilapidated houses are everywhere. Who wants to hear about that?" Jenkins said. "What we talk about is, 'How can you work with what you have?' We have wonderful old houses with wonderful architecture that can never be re-created again. What we can do is try to save as much of it as possible."

http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com (http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080121/LIFESTYLE/801190310/1004/CUSTOMERSERVICE06)


...part of the solution...

thanks, bystander2.

[ExpatBaman]

Both sides can win

By Nathan R. Norris


Unfortunately, the recent debate over the proposed Retirement Systems of Alabama Judicial Building on Dexter Avenue has focused on whether the RSA should construct a building or not, instead of how the project's design flaws can be corrected in order to adequately leverage its economic development potential for the benefit of the city, region and state.

Downtown Montgomery has been an under-leveraged economic asset for this region for more than 50 years. Fortunately, over the past several years we have had the nation's leading planners and designers of downtown areas, such as Andres Duany, Victor Dover, Rick Bernhardt, Tony Nelessen and Ed McMahon, visit the downtown and provide their thoughts on how to leverage it economically.

All agreed that:


The downtown operates like a sterile 9-5 suburban commuter office park instead of a vibrant 24/7 downtown regional center;
Despite the substantial amount of investment in construction in the downtown area over the past 40 years, these investments failed to sufficiently foster the economic revitalization of downtown due to the failure to follow basic rules of urban design for downtown buildings;
The downtown still has great potential due to a wide variety of factors such as the grandeur of the Capitol and its surrounding grounds, its underlying block structure, and the institutions that need to remain downtown.

In 2006 the Chamber of Commerce released its Economic Development Report for the region. It correctly concluded that the downtown would not be revitalized so long as developers had no predictability in the nature of what would be built downtown. For years, developers were drawn to the suburbs where there has been much greater predictability.

The city of Montgomery wisely heeded these conclusions and commissioned the award-winning firm Dover Kohl to work with the city and its citizens to craft a game plan for turning the downtown around. Dover Kohl answered the call with a world-class master plan and zoning code that was unanimously adopted by the City Council. The RSA did not actively participate in this planning effort.

In 2007, the City Council unanimously adopted a mandatory zoning code for the downtown area that requires the master plan to be followed. These actions set the stage for downtown developers to invest in the downtown area thanks to the certainty it would now bring to development in the downtown area. Other cities are so jealous of this remarkable turn-around, that they are inviting representatives of Montgomery to come to their cities to explain how they can follow a similar path.

Now, less than a year after Montgomery made this quick turn-around, the RSA wants to reverse the progress that has been made by constructing a building on the most important street in downtown. It does not comply with the unanimously adopted master plan or the unanimously adopted zoning code due to numerous design flaws.

While there are several correctable design flaws, the most fundamental violation is the height of the structure. The height limitation in the master plan is premised upon several reasons including the need to safeguard the grandeur of the downtown's most valuable asset -- the view and primacy of the Capitol and its surrounding grounds.

This requirement, along with the others found in the Master Plan, seek to emulate the success of Charleston, S.C., Washington, D.C., and Paris as opposed to the "anything goes" policies that have produced disinvestment in places like downtown Houston.

It is absolutely imperative that this $200 million project move forward in a manner that will allow it to stand the test of time. After all, this is not only Montgomery's Main Street, it is Alabama's Main Street, as well as the Main Street for the Civil Rights Movement. Add to that the fact that the RSA constructs building to last for generations, and we have no choice but to demand that the RSA refrain from moving forward with all deliberate speed on a design that does not even stand up to the concerns of the current generation due to correctable design flaws.

The good news is that we have a precedent for dealing with this impasse. One hundred years ago there was a similarly heated controversy that arose over the addition of wings to the Capitol. Our forefathers reached out to the nation's most respected architect, Charles McKim, who helped guide everyone to a solution that worked for everyone. This example can be replicated by bringing in some of the nation's most respected designers who have had a direct hand in helping breathe life into Washington, D.C. These designers can help us understand the possibilities that will allow the RSA to move forward with a design that meets their economic goals while conforming to the master plan and zoning code. And the solutions will not only work now, but for generations to come -- just like the guidance given by Charles McKim 100 years ago.

These issues will be fully discussed at the next RSA Judicial Building Forum hosted by the Citizens for Downtown Revitalization at 5:30 p.m. on Tuesday at the Hank Williams Museum Meeting Hall. If you are concerned for the future of downtown, we strongly encourage you to attend and let your concerns be heard.

Nathan R. Norris is a Montgomery developer.


Montgomery Advertiser (http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080122/OPINION0101/801220302/1012/OPINION)

[RSAHort]

I for one do not agree with the idea that just because someone lives in a 'border' town they do not have credibility or shouldn't contribute. Not everybody can live downtown or wants to for that matter. That shouldn't discount their ideas. I don't want to live downtown...even it it was the thriving place everyone here seems to dream of. Thats just not me. That said, I still would like downtown to be a great place to go eat and have a good time with lots of choices. I first found this site looking for pics of the RSA Tower in Mobile. It just so happened to have a Montgomery section. I don't contribute much...I mostly like to read others posts and opinions about things going on and upcoming projects. Lets not 'kick' people just because they might not live here. As far as I am concerned, people from all the surrounding communities of Montgomery are welcome. They just as much as the citizens of Montgomery will have just as much to do with a successful downtown area. And by that I mean the ones visiting and spending money in the restaurants and other venues.

[OldCloverdale]

any of y'all have any comments on the state capitol in Tallahassee?

BEFORE:

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/oth/timeline/images/1932/Capitol_Tallahassee.jpg

http://www.netstate.com/states/intro/images/fl_old_statehouse_all.jpg



AFTER:

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/FileStores/Web/HouseContent/Approved/Public%20Guide/Uploads/Images/Florida_state_capitol.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/65/Tallahassee_Capitol_Complex_pr11224.jpg/300px-Tallahassee_Capitol_Complex_pr11224.jpg

http://tallahassee.com/graphics/capitol_skyline.jpg

[thoraudio]

A singular tall structure flanked by a pair of spheroid objects.

nope. no comments at all. :D

[| BRAVO |]

:previous: It's hideous. It would be sad to have such an atrocity destroy the integrity of a historic structure... for the entire state.

[thoraudio]

On a more serious note, I think it emphasizes the need for a unifying theme in the capitol area.

The current (AL) capitol and the building flanking it had a unifying theme (albeit unfinished). The addition of the Gordon Persons building was a bad choice, and subtracted from the area.

Take a look at this pic (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=32.377726~-86.300252&style=a&lvl=18&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=8736033&encType=1).

Other than taking up a city block, the Persons building doesn't add to the Capitol grounds, it takes away.

But, if the legislature ever does actually build their building (and doesn't use the old Pizitz/One Court Square building), look the parking lot behind the Capitol.

local.live (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=pcwp6s7t7f6t&style=o&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=8737817&encType=1)

A 4 or 5 story building would fill in the area nicely, and wouldn't ruin the view from the fountain up Dexter.

[kevinlpugh]

By Hilary Funk




Three new hotels are set to open near The Shoppes at East­Chase, joining three existing ho­tels.

The 66-room Sleep Inn & Suites on Chantilly Parkway, the 106-room Holiday Inn Ex­press Hotel & Suites on Boyd-Cooper Parkway and the 102-room Hampton Inn & Suites at EastChase have been operat­ing and reporting good busi­ness.

In the spring, a 92-room Stay­bridge Suites will open at East­Chase, in addition to an 80-room Comfort Inn on Chantilly Park­way. A third new hotel at East­Chase is under development, but details have not been re­leased.

UniHost Inc. owns the Hamp­ton Inn & Suites and the Stay­bridge Suites.

"We are very pleased with business at EastChase and are very happy to be there," Un­iHost Vice President Mary Wan­sley said from her office in At­lanta.

Wansley didn't have exact hotel occupancy rates, but she did say business was good, espe­cially during football season.

"Auburn football is impor­tant to us," she said.

Millard Williams, general manger of the Holiday Inn Ex­press, said business has been good since the hotel opened in May 2005.

"We think that the Montgom­ery market is a good market and it's growing," Williams said. "Fortunately for us, the growth seems to be heading out east."

Williams said occupancy rates are generally high and steady.

"We are doing real well, and we feel very fortunate that we got in early on the stage. We feel real fortunate that we had the foresight to do that," he said.

Dawn Hathcock, vice presi­dent of Convention and Visitor Bureau of the Montgomery Area Chamber of Commerce, said the new hotels in east Montgomery are following a larger trend in Montgomery.

"I really think that tourism and hotel-building is growing throughout the city as a whole. Obviously, there's a lot of activi­ty downtown as well as on the east side. The groups that build these hotels, they do their re­search," and know where the best sites are, Hathcock said.

Part of that research in­cluded east Montgomery's shop­ping and dining options.

"One of the number one things that people like to do when they're out of town is shop, and obviously dining is high on the list," Hathcock said, adding that the proximity to In­terstate 85 is another plus. "It's easy to get to downtown, it's easy to get to the Shakespeare Festival, and it's easy access by virtue by the interstate."

[bystander1]

After 7 years of procrastination....


Montgomery's Alleyway Project A 'Done Deal'

Updated: Jan 24, 2008 05:59 PM CST

Construction Just Around The Corner On Montgomery's Downtown Alleyway


It's back on track and full steam ahead for the so-called alleyway project in downtown Montgomery.

"It's a done deal," said Jeff Downes, Executive Assistant to Mayor Bobby Bright.

One year from now expect an entirely different look, nothing like the shattered past of neglect and brokenness. The alleyway is located at the corner of Commerce and Tallapoosa Streets and right now it's home to some vacant warehouses that clearly had seen better days.

"There will be restaurants, cafe tables outside, people strolling through and shops,' Downes said.

In other words it'll have a New Orleans style feel to it, but getting the concept off paper wasn't easy. All 7 property owners had to make some hard, hard choices.

"They had to agree to deed a portion of what they own in the alleyway to the city as well as agree to fix up their facade with their own money," said Downes.

In fact, WSFA 12 News interviewed Downes on a balcony that had already been constructed by one of the private property owners. It overlooks at the alleyway.

Greg Allen, for one, initially had reservations whether the idea, first proposed 7 years ago in a city master plan study, even made sense.

"I really didn't understand that plans all that well," Allen said.

Now Allen is on board. The alleyway's formal entrance will begin at Allen's building on Commerce Street with the rear of his building exiting to the alleyway.

The property owners even had doubts whether or not the downtown Marriott Renaissance Hotel and Spa would be built. Now it's here. The hotel is less than a block away.

And much like the hotel the alleyway is costing a bundle. For property owners, millions of dollars to do their part. The city and county are forking over a million, all of it coming from taxes collected from properties that have appreciated in downtown. Jeff Downes knows there may be critics, wondering if this is a good use of public money, especially in light of all the talk about a national recession.

Reporter: "What if this doesn't work?"

Downes: "It will work. Remember, this is a long term project."

Allen adds 'if you stay stagnant, you won't grow.'

Construction is expected to begin in mid-March and wrap up 6 months later.

Reporter: Bryan Henry

http://wsfa.com/Global/story.asp?S=7770969

****************************
OK, soapbox time...

TRULY UNBELIEVEABLE. 7 years behind schedule, and it's revealed that the ones who truly held up this project were the very ones who say they want to do something to bring more business and people downtown, the very property owners themselves.

To say they didn't believe the hotel would be built is totally asinine!!! Shouldn't they have known something was going down after the groundbreaking and cranes went up for it 3 YEARS AGO?!!! :koko:

Now we'll have to wait another year before we can stroll down the "alley" before the Biscuits games... :(

....la-li-gaging....

[midwestrabbi]

The Alley Way project was one that I was looking forward to. To me it seemd like this project should have been one of the first completed, with the Riverwalk Stadium and Brew - Pub across the street. For those in the know, does anyone remember the building that was supposed to be built at the corner of Commerce and Bibb. One building was to be a office building and the other was to be a hotel. And there was to be a mall area in between. I believe that the office building was to be 15 floors and the hotel was to be either 10 or 12, and Jim Wilson was to build it. Now my question in the past 25 years how many " if " projects has downtown Montgomery had, that were never developed or built ? Great Topic

[bystander1]

For those in the know, does anyone remember the building that was supposed to be built at the corner of Commerce and Bibb. One building was to be a office building and the other was to be a hotel. And there was to be a mall area in between. I believe that the office building was to be 15 floors and the hotel was to be either 10 or 12, and Jim Wilson was to build it. Now my question in the past 25 years how many " if " projects has downtown Montgomery had, that were never developed or built ? Great Topic


I remember. Wilson wanted to build a 15-18 story hotel with retail on the bottom floor that would connect to an expanded civic center. The former mayor wasn't a bit interested in expanding the civic center at the time, so away went Wilson and the proposed hotel.

The other proposed building on that site was a 16 story Colonial Bank building. Bobby Lowder wanted the city to build a parking deck dedicated to the bank only. The city was already in the process of building a parking deck nearby and wasn't willing to build Lowder his own deck at the same time, so away went Lowder and the proposed bank building (to east Montgomery).

[thoraudio]

There were also plans to renovate the Frank Leu building at that site that never moved foward.

Link to the history (http://www.smuteye.com/igi/projects/frankleu.htm)

[g-man435]

^^How come it didn't move forward?

[Brown Duckz]

^^How come it didn't move forward?Because you showed up in this thread.

[thoraudio]

I've heard that the Frank Leu had a wooden interior structure, and would that would have had to have been completely stripped. Which would have been mega $$.

Another guess is that it was bought by the city and leveled to make way for the Jim Wilson project mentioned, which probably didn't come about because of one of the Wilson company's many bankruptcies and/or Mayor Folmar's unwillingness to move foward on anything in the downtown area.

[bystander1]

FWIW: Jim Wilson scrapped his plans a few years before the city bought and demolished the Frank Lue.

[g-man435]

^^^Ahhh...ok.

Because you showed up in this thread.

Actually, my question was a serious one. Apparently your answer wasn't.

[thoraudio]

^^^Ahhh...ok.



Actually, my question was a serious one. Apparently your answer wasn't.

In Brown Duckz defense, it is difficult to separate your real comments from the inane drivel.

[g-man435]

^^Sorry for being a jerk guys. I won't do it anymore. From now on, all of my questions and comments will be serious ones. :)

[Brown Duckz]

^^^Ahhh...ok.



Actually, my question was a serious one. Apparently your answer wasn't.I was being serious, just think what it could have been had you not posted in our thread.
















:haha:

[Brown Duckz]

There was a Transportation Conference today.

Photo:

http://cmsimg.montgomeryadvertiser.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?NewTbl=1&Avis=DS&Dato=20080125&Kategori=NEWS&Lopenr=801250801&Ref=PH&Item=4&MaxW=600&MaxH=600&border=0

It was to discuss the "5 year roadway" plan for Alabama. Anyone have any idea what all is included in this plan and which will actually begin constuction?

The above picture looks like a I85 west demo.

[hiijakd]

there will be a meeting today at 4:30 at the Hank Williams Museum to further discuss the RSA building. Come if you can.

Also
I am going to have an open house at the lofts on Wednesday February 6th, all day. Come and bring people.

[Brown Duckz]

In a video on montgomeryadvertiser.com Riley says the 5-year plan involves toll roads, but with the plan he wants to put into place--the Outer Loop & I-85 West could begin construction NOW.

It was mentioned that these "public-private" partnerships would be put into place for 30 years, then the roadways would be handed back over to the State. Why is this? Do the private investers make enough money in that period to actually hand over their investment?

[thoraudio]

In a video on montgomeryadvertiser.com Riley says the 5-year plan involves toll roads, but with the plan he wants to put into place--the Outer Loop & I-85 West could begin construction NOW.


I just heard a groan from the Hunstville formers :D

[thoraudio]

there will be a meeting today at 4:30 at the Hank Williams Museum to further discuss the RSA building. Come if you can.

Also
I am going to have an open house at the lofts on Wednesday February 6th, all day. Come and bring people.


Forum meet. 11:45 at Cuco's?

[Brown Duckz]

I just heard a groan from the Hunstville formers :DI didn't even think about that, they are really going to hate our city now. Riley seems hard on for the Montgomery projects, and even mentioned the Dothan I-10 connector before anything in Birmingham or Huntsville. Riley is going to kick start this thing for real now. Everytime he has to put his foot down something gets going. :haha:

[Brown Duckz]

Forum meet. 11:45 at Cuco's?That sounds like a plan. I'm going to be unemployed for about three weeks beginning Feb 1st, might as well make use of my time. :D

Edit: damnit, that's national signing day for high school football, hopefully it starts later than lunch time

[HSVTiger]

I just heard a groan from the Hunstville formers :D
nah he said the same thing up here in a similar meeting, just substituted different road projects. The key phrase in this is justifying a toll road.
This is just to get ALDOT off the hook because as they are now they are
unable to operate at all. Good luck!

[thoraudio]

That sounds like a plan. I'm going to be unemployed for about three weeks beginning Feb 1st, might as well make use of my time. :D

Edit: damnit, that's national signing day for high school football, hopefully it starts later than lunch time

bring a laptop and use up some of that free wifi. :cool:

[Brown Duckz]

Will do, I have yet to use the connection down there.

[OldCloverdale]

Forum meet. 11:45 at Cuco's?

what about Smoothies & Things?

[hiijakd]

yeah, support darien. the better he does the better for downtown investment. :yes:

[bystander1]

nah he said the same thing up here in a similar meeting, just substituted different road projects. The key phrase in this is justifying a toll road.
This is just to get ALDOT off the hook because as they are now they are
unable to operate at all. Good luck!

I agree. This is another cop-out for Riley and ALDOT not to totally pay for what was designated a crucial freeway twenty years ago.

In other words, if this will be a toll road, then every new highway in this state should be built as a toll road. Why one without the others?

[midwestrabbi]

I was looking at maps planning a trip and I noticed something, why do most cities ( Dallas, Houston, Memphis, Kansas City, St louis, Jacksonville Fl just to name a few ) have complete Interstate Beltways around their cities, and yet there is NO city in Alabama with the same ? If the money was spent in these other cities was from the Federal Gvt what did the State of Alabama do with the portion that was given to them ? Some of you may remember that Birmingham was the last major city in the whole country to see the original plans completed, in other words the Interstate system through Bham was completed more than two decades later than was planned. WHY ?

[neilson]

I was looking at maps planning a trip and I noticed something, why do most cities ( Dallas, Houston, Memphis, Kansas City, St louis, Jacksonville Fl just to name a few ) have complete Interstate Beltways around their cities, and yet there is NO city in Alabama with the same ? If the money was spent in these other cities was from the Federal Gvt what did the State of Alabama do with the portion that was given to them ? Some of you may remember that Birmingham was the last major city in the whole country to see the original plans completed, in other words the Interstate system through Bham was completed more than two decades later than was planned. WHY ?
Because Jefferson County always voted "the wrong way" in Democrat Gubernatorial Primaries from 1962 though 1986.

[Scoots71]

I was looking at maps planning a trip and I noticed something, why do most cities ( Dallas, Houston, Memphis, Kansas City, St louis, Jacksonville Fl just to name a few ) have complete Interstate Beltways around their cities, and yet there is NO city in Alabama with the same ? If the money was spent in these other cities was from the Federal Gvt what did the State of Alabama do with the portion that was given to them ? Some of you may remember that Birmingham was the last major city in the whole country to see the original plans completed, in other words the Interstate system through Bham was completed more than two decades later than was planned. WHY ?

Well I guess you could actually call 459 half a beltway around B'ham.

[g-man435]

I was looking at maps planning a trip and I noticed something, why do most cities ( Dallas, Houston, Memphis, Kansas City, St louis, Jacksonville Fl just to name a few ) have complete Interstate Beltways around their cities, and yet there is NO city in Alabama with the same ? If the money was spent in these other cities was from the Federal Gvt what did the State of Alabama do with the portion that was given to them ? Some of you may remember that Birmingham was the last major city in the whole country to see the original plans completed, in other words the Interstate system through Bham was completed more than two decades later than was planned. WHY ?

All of the cities you just mentioned are bigger than any city in Alabama except for maybe Birmingham. That's why. It's a question of when it will happen, not if. We're having the same problems with our DOT here in South Carolina too. Nobody in the state legislature wants to raise the gas tax, so the roads here are starting to crumble and get some major potholes. :whip: I think they should toll every interstate in the country. That's what they did with I-185 in Greenville.

[midwestrabbi]

I pulled metro Maps of about 25 cities of half a million up and every one of them had a InterState - Limited access Bypass around their city. If Atlanta can build a Bypass around the Bypass why cannot Birmingham finish the one they need? Again another excuse.

[skycaptain]

Nashvile does not have a completed beltline, nor does Charlotte, yet they seem to be doing ok growth wise. I fail to see the cause-and-effect implied in the references to those other cities.

In Atlanta, it was visionary leadership and Hartsfield International that caused that city to explode, not the beltline. And look at Huntsville, which only recently became connected to the interstate system. So, let's please try to resist the temptation to oversimply these growth-related issues to campaign for our own pet projects.:shrug:

[midwestrabbi]

I could care less if Montgomery ever builds the so called loop, ( really half loop ). The point I was making is, if these other states can build some of the most progressive highways, what is Alabama getting for its tax dollar ( federal or local ). Last summer I traveled on the new I-22 ( U.S. 78 ) a great new stretch of road, until we got into Bham. We bottlenecked into a two lane 10 mile road, that took me 45 minutes to drive as it was rush hour. Another example of Aladot , building and designing for the present.

[Brown Duckz]

I still think the I-85 west extension should be a federally funded interstate. I could live with the southern portion of Montgomery's outerloop being toll as long as they get the plan in line for the northern loop to be federally funded.

Like all others, where is the money that should be allotted for these highways? If the state has "needed" them for 20 years, why hasen't DC got the memo?

[Brown Duckz]

Last summer I traveled on the new I-22 ( U.S. 78 ) a great new stretch of road, until we got into Bham. We bottlenecked into a two lane 10 mile road, that took me 45 minutes to drive as it was rush hour. Another example of Aladot , building and designing for the present.You are aware they are almost done connecting Corridor X [I-22] to I-65 north of the interchange?

[midwestrabbi]

One of the greatest WASTE in Alabama, is State Government. And as one past governor of Alabama said Aladot, is, the most TOP Heavy agency . Remember when a private company built a toll bridge over the Alabama River at a fourth of the cost that the state of Alabama could have built the same bridge for. It is past time for governments to realize who pays the bills.

[OldCloverdale]

Survey: Lawmakers moving?

By Phillip Rawls
The Associated Press

http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080127/NEWS01/801270312

Support is building in the Alabama Legislature for abandoning the State House and constructing a more voter-friendly place for lawmakers to meet.

An Associated Press survey of the House and Senate found more legislators prefer moving to a new building than remodeling the State House or leaving it as it is.

The chairman of the legislative committee studying the State House and its future isn't surprised by the survey results.

"That's what I have been hearing, especially since the last few sessions when the fire marshal has run people out of committee rooms because they are so crowded," Rep. Richard Laird, D-Roanoke, said.

The Legislature remodeled the old highway department building behind the Capitol into the State House in 1986 and moved across the street. The State House afforded more office space and more committee meeting rooms than the historic, but cramped Capitol.

At the time, the accommodations were considered so plush that Gov. Fob James called the building the "Taj Mahal."

But in the 22 years since the move from the Capitol, there has been an explosion in the number of lobbyists at the Legislature and in the public turnout to see committee meetings and legislative sessions. There also has been a dramatic growth in school groups and adult organizations touring the State House when the Legislature is in session.

When controversial bills are being debated, visitors sometimes have to wait in line for a seat to come open in the House and Senate galleries. Buckets sometimes block hallways because the roof regularly sprouts leaks.

Last year, the Legislature voted to create a committee to study what should be done. Laird's committee has an architectural firm reviewing the options and the possible costs. The study is supposed to be completed in the legislative session starting Feb. 5.

In an Associated Press survey of the Senate, 55 percent favored a new building, 4 percent wanted the State House remodeled, 10 percent wanted nothing done, and 31 percent were undecided.

In the House, 32 percent supported a new building, 21 percent favored remodeling the State House, 9 percent said do nothing, and 38 percent were undecided.

The survey was answered by 83 percent of the senators and 72 percent of the representatives.

Senate budget committee Chairman Roger Bedford, D-Russellville, advocates a new building because his committee meets in the largest room available to the Senate and it's often standing-room only.

"It's embarrassing for people from Red Bay to drive down for a public hearing and there is no place to sit. Some people only come to Montgomery once or twice in a lifetime, and what impression of state government do they leave with?" Bedford asked.

State Sen. Larry Dixon, R-Montgomery, advocates doing nothing. He said now is not the time for the Legislature to spend millions on itself when lawmakers are faced with cutting funding in the state budgets due to the economic slowdown.

Gov. Bob Riley said he has not been involved with the Legislature's study, but he questioned the timing.

"Right now with the budgets the way they are, somebody would be hard-pressed to say that's a priority," the governor said in an interview.

Laird understands those concerns.

"The financial situation of the state is a factor," he said. "But I've been there 30 years and there is never a right time."

Marc Reynolds, deputy chief executive of the Retirement Systems of Alabama, said some legislators have approached the state pension system about financing the construction of a building for the Legislature. But he said there is no consensus among the advocates for a new building about where to put it or how much space is needed.

The Legislature will have a tough time selling the idea of a new building to the public unless there is a consensus among legislators and support from the governor, he said.

[OCA REP]

Survey: Lawmakers moving?

By Phillip Rawls
The Associated Press

http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080127/NEWS01/801270312

Support is building in the Alabama Legislature for abandoning the State House and constructing a more voter-friendly place for lawmakers to meet.

An Associated Press survey of the House and Senate found more legislators prefer moving to a new building than remodeling the State House or leaving it as it is.

The chairman of the legislative committee studying the State House and its future isn't surprised by the survey results.

"That's what I have been hearing, especially since the last few sessions when the fire marshal has run people out of committee rooms because they are so crowded," Rep. Richard Laird, D-Roanoke, said.

The Legislature remodeled the old highway department building behind the Capitol into the State House in 1986 and moved across the street. The State House afforded more office space and more committee meeting rooms than the historic, but cramped Capitol.

At the time, the accommodations were considered so plush that Gov. Fob James called the building the "Taj Mahal."

But in the 22 years since the move from the Capitol, there has been an explosion in the number of lobbyists at the Legislature and in the public turnout to see committee meetings and legislative sessions. There also has been a dramatic growth in school groups and adult organizations touring the State House when the Legislature is in session.

When controversial bills are being debated, visitors sometimes have to wait in line for a seat to come open in the House and Senate galleries. Buckets sometimes block hallways because the roof regularly sprouts leaks.

Last year, the Legislature voted to create a committee to study what should be done. Laird's committee has an architectural firm reviewing the options and the possible costs. The study is supposed to be completed in the legislative session starting Feb. 5.

In an Associated Press survey of the Senate, 55 percent favored a new building, 4 percent wanted the State House remodeled, 10 percent wanted nothing done, and 31 percent were undecided.

In the House, 32 percent supported a new building, 21 percent favored remodeling the State House, 9 percent said do nothing, and 38 percent were undecided.

The survey was answered by 83 percent of the senators and 72 percent of the representatives.

Senate budget committee Chairman Roger Bedford, D-Russellville, advocates a new building because his committee meets in the largest room available to the Senate and it's often standing-room only.

"It's embarrassing for people from Red Bay to drive down for a public hearing and there is no place to sit. Some people only come to Montgomery once or twice in a lifetime, and what impression of state government do they leave with?" Bedford asked.

State Sen. Larry Dixon, R-Montgomery, advocates doing nothing. He said now is not the time for the Legislature to spend millions on itself when lawmakers are faced with cutting funding in the state budgets due to the economic slowdown.

Gov. Bob Riley said he has not been involved with the Legislature's study, but he questioned the timing.

"Right now with the budgets the way they are, somebody would be hard-pressed to say that's a priority," the governor said in an interview.

Laird understands those concerns.

"The financial situation of the state is a factor," he said. "But I've been there 30 years and there is never a right time."

Marc Reynolds, deputy chief executive of the Retirement Systems of Alabama, said some legislators have approached the state pension system about financing the construction of a building for the Legislature. But he said there is no consensus among the advocates for a new building about where to put it or how much space is needed.

The Legislature will have a tough time selling the idea of a new building to the public unless there is a consensus among legislators and support from the governor, he said.

Hmmm. Getting the RSA involved in another building project in downtown MGM. An interesting thought given the controversy their current project is causing!

[hiijakd]

if they would just work with people and the plan of the downtown area then there would be no problem. unfortunately they have been stonewalling any offer for talks or compromises.

[OCA REP]

if they would just work with people and the plan of the downtown area then there would be no problem. unfortunately they have been stonewalling any offer for talks or compromises.

Oh, I understand. I just thought it was funny that the RSA (and their $$$) had surfaced again so quickly. You would think they (the RSA) would get their head out of the sand and see that compromise would be good for everyone!

[hiijakd]

we can all wish can't we. unfortunately it APPEARS that they are too prideful to do so.

[Brown Duckz]

Will RSA be financing this project, or will the State?

[OldCloverdale]

has everyone here seen this?

http://downtownmontgomery.wordpress.com/

[thoraudio]

looks like a good presentation.

[kevinlpugh]

Circuit City opens Friday at EastChase



Circuit City is set to open Friday at the Market Center in the EastChase development, said Kay Yarbrough, spokeswoman for Jim Wilson and Associates.

The store originally was scheduled to open late February. Yarbrough said Bed, Bath and Beyond should open the first week of April, and Old Navy, the first week of May.

The new businesses in the Market Center -- adjacent to Costco -- will help fill about 80 percent of the EastChase development in east Montgomery. The entire development likely will be completed in three more years. Currently, about 75 percent to 80 percent of the land has been developed.