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trofirhen
Dec 18, 2017, 6:53 AM
According to A.net Turkish and Canadian officials are meeting again to discuss adding slots to the bilateral for Western Canadian service. Apparently 3xPW is being offered up, we'll see if there's any truth to this, but I take it with a grain of salt.

Is this the quote to which you are referring?

"The Canadian and Turkish CAA officials will meet in Canada in two weeks time and the bilateral will be amended to give 3 new slots to Turkish Airlines to serve Western Canada (YVR) so if Turkish will accept this proposal this will go forward and TK can launch IST YVR IST thrice weekly from April 1st, 2018;"


I like his choice words "will be amended...." I'd be curious if it should actually say "may be amended..."

In any event... seems like user ankaraflyjet either actually knows something or is just speculating. Who knows. And as for a 1st April start date, I'd say for an airline like Turkish, that would be a very short lead-in time.

Grain of salt also taken :)

As an outsider looking in, I can only say that I remember this 3x / week offering coming up earlier in the year, as I recall.
IF TK is offered YVR - IST service 3x /week, I hope they take it and run with it. Just getting that foothold would be so important, and an upwards revision of the bilateral could come later.
Such a service would really "round out" YVR Europe destinations.

thenoflyzone
Dec 18, 2017, 3:40 PM
Have I mentioned I hate the CTA's website (https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/transport-agreements) on these bilateral agreements. Even the link to Global Affairs Canada website (http://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/index.aspx) for the full treaty texts is useless in this case.

However, if we go by the current routes flown, the current limit on the Canada-Turkey bilateral seems to be 9x weekly flights. TK uses 6x weekly to YYZ and 3x weekly to YUL.

If the bilateral will be amended, I would think TK would push for 14x weekly frequencies straight away, and not just 12x weekly.

So that would mean YYZ can go daily, YUL could go 4x weekly and they could launch YVR at 3x weekly.

The timeline seems too tight for an April 1 launch though. June or July seems more plausible, if the treaty gets amended that is.

lubicon
Dec 18, 2017, 7:34 PM
Saw on airliners.net on the weekly OAG update:

AC continues to build YVR trans border next summer.

That's getting pretty close to 40 daily next summer on AC. Total YVR-transborder as it stands now will be ~ 95 flights per day... if you include the scheduled Mexico flights (not including charters) YVR will have over 100 daily international flights just within North America.... how do like THEM apples?! :D

AC increasing SAN to 3 daily (YVR-California bumps to 17 daily on AC)
AC increasing DEN to 3 daily

Other changes

AS increasing SEA back to 6 daily (restoring one of the lost daily frequencies)
AA increasing DFW to 3 daily (normal summer bump)

DL cutting YVR-LAX (code share remains on the 3 daily Westjet flights) DL will still have 13 daily flights from YVR next summer.

Therefore YVR-LAX will be served by only 4 carriers again with 12 daily flights next summer.

Four carriers on a single route is pretty outstanding and you don't see that very often with the hub nature most airlines operate under these days.

trofirhen
Dec 18, 2017, 8:10 PM
Have I mentioned I hate the CTA's website (https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/transport-agreements) on these bilateral agreements. Even the link to Global Affairs Canada website (http://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/index.aspx) for the full treaty texts is useless in this case.

However, if we go by the current routes flown, the current limit on the Canada-Turkey bilateral seems to be 9x weekly flights. TK uses 6x weekly to YYZ and 3x weekly to YUL.

If the bilateral will be amended, I would think TK would push for 14x weekly frequencies straight away, and not just 12x weekly.

So that would mean YYZ can go daily, YUL could go 4x weekly and they could launch YVR at 3x weekly.

The timeline seems too tight for an April 1 launch though. June or July seems more plausible, if the treaty gets amended that is.

Thank you for that breakdown. It makes things much more understandable.:tup:

But if they only get that 12xweek, YVR will stay shut out of that market, so here's prayin' for those 14 flights a week.
*On another angle, SEA was once considered an option if YVR fell through. With the DT foreign policy slowing or stopping flights from certain 'other' countries, that just might tilt lt to YVR's advantage .....
IF it goes through. This is a biggie. Pray for it, please.:fingerscrossed:

Johnny Aussie
Dec 18, 2017, 8:36 PM
Four carriers on a single route is pretty outstanding and you don't see that very often with the hub nature most airlines operate under these days.

Yes it is. And I kind of figured with 5 on the route... someone is going to have to cave in. So it was DL. But with their upcoming JV with WS that move actually makes sense with 3 flights per day they can code share on. And with the daily SNA as well that’s 4 to the LA basin.

Of the 4 remaining carriers only 2 are aligned (UA and AC), AA and WS will be “independent” shortly. :haha:

Johnny Aussie
Dec 18, 2017, 9:06 PM
As for Turkish... IF this rumour is true (I really don't like speculating from airliners.net but I will :haha:) and IF TK is gunning for a "Western Canada" clause, which they can then the bilateral can be amended to add Vancouver as a designated point served. Countries can add any clause they want as long as both parties agree to it. Perhaps AC won't object as they can easily codeshare with their Star Alliance partner to further strengthen their growing YVR hub. But the poster was specific about an amendment regarding Western Canada (YVR mentioned specifically).

:shrug:

Klazu
Dec 22, 2017, 3:13 AM
Peak holiday season at YVR with up to 83 000 passangers traveling through the airport a day. This in mind I was surprised to find the US terminal almost empty at 5pm tonight. It wasn't busy at all, which is of course nice on our way to Guam. I was just prepared to skip the lines with our new NEXUS cards, but not today. :)

zahav
Dec 22, 2017, 9:16 AM
The extra CR900 transborder are likely coming from the YWG route, which will go from a single 319 and 3 or 4 CR900s,to 3 320s.

Also EWR on AC is now 787-900 instead of -800. Freeing up the -8 from Paris/Zurich?

Cage
Dec 26, 2017, 10:28 PM
As for Turkish... IF this rumour is true (I really don't like speculating from airliners.net but I will :haha:) and IF TK is gunning for a "Western Canada" clause, which they can then the bilateral can be amended to add Vancouver as a designated point served. Countries can add any clause they want as long as both parties agree to it. Perhaps AC won't object as they can easily codeshare with their Star Alliance partner to further strengthen their growing YVR hub. But the poster was specific about an amendment regarding Western Canada (YVR mentioned specifically).

:shrug:

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year SSP YVR.

I would expect AC to object to TK being allowed YVR-IST. AC gets beyond revenue if traffic flows through FRA on either AC or LH, however if traffic flows through IST on TK, its outside the TransAt ATI++ JV with UA and the LH Group.

casper
Dec 27, 2017, 5:06 PM
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year SSP YVR.

I would expect AC to object to TK being allowed YVR-IST. AC gets beyond revenue if traffic flows through FRA on either AC or LH, however if traffic flows through IST on TK, its outside the TransAt ATI++ JV with UA and the LH Group.

A star alliance airlines trying to block another star alliance airlines from starting a new route. How unfriendly would that be ....

I would also not be surprised. Do you know if AC and TK partner at all on the YYZ-IST routes?

trofirhen
Dec 27, 2017, 5:44 PM
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year SSP YVR.

I would expect AC to object to TK being allowed YVR-IST. AC gets beyond revenue if traffic flows through FRA on either AC or LH, however if traffic flows through IST on TK, its outside the TransAt ATI++ JV with UA and the LH Group.

Although Air Canada is privatized (and I understand no longer a Crown Corporation), it still
amazes and frustrates me how much power they wield. They can block this, block that, make sure YYZ gets what it wants, and so forth.
Seems a bit out of whack to me, but then ........

A star alliance airlines trying to block another star alliance airlines from starting a new route. How unfriendly would that be ....

I would also not be surprised. Do you know if AC and TK partner at all on the YYZ-IST routes?

I understood (correct me if I'm wrong) that AC itself had dropped routes into IST (from YYZ and YUL presumably). If true, that leaves just Turkish.

https://ac.fltmaps.com/en .... check out YYZ destinations

casper
Dec 28, 2017, 3:10 AM
Although Air Canada is privatized (and I understand no longer a Crown Corporation), it still
amazes and frustrates me how much power they wield. They can block this, block that, make sure YYZ gets what it wants, and so forth.
Seems a bit out of whack to me, but then ........



I understood (correct me if I'm wrong) that AC itself had dropped routes into IST (from YYZ and YUL presumably). If true, that leaves just Turkish.

https://ac.fltmaps.com/en .... check out YYZ destinations

Something about Turkey having a bit of a revolution on the go has hit travel demand into the country. I don't know if AC codeshares on the Turkish flights or not.

thenoflyzone
Dec 28, 2017, 6:54 PM
Although Air Canada is privatized (and I understand no longer a Crown Corporation), it still
amazes and frustrates me how much power they wield. They can block this, block that, make sure YYZ gets what it wants, and so forth.
Seems a bit out of whack to me, but then ........



I understood (correct me if I'm wrong) that AC itself had dropped routes into IST (from YYZ and YUL presumably). If true, that leaves just Turkish.

https://ac.fltmaps.com/en .... check out YYZ destinations

AC never served YUL-IST, only YYZ-IST.

Although we dont have access to the bilateral agreement between Canada and Turkey, I'm pretty sure there are no restrictions for TK to serve YVR. The restrictions are strictly on frequency. If TK wanted to serve YVR that badly, they can cancel YUL and start YVR. Pretty straighforward move.

Contrary to what people believe, i don't think AC has that much pull with the government anymore. AC can't stop TK from launching YVR. Just like AC couldnt stop TK from launching YYZ or YUL.

Something about Turkey having a bit of a revolution on the go has hit travel demand into the country. I don't know if AC codeshares on the Turkish flights or not.

Yes, they still do.

https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/home/book/routes-and-partners/star-alliance-and-other-airline-partners.html

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/240906/turkish-airlines-air-canada-expands-codeshare-service-from-june-2014/?highlight=air%20canada%20turkish%20codeshare

nname
Dec 28, 2017, 10:24 PM
noticed some construction while at the airport yesterday

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4570/38528077591_521c5c85bc_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21GAtaR)2017-11-19_02-23-01 (https://flic.kr/p/21GAtaR) by snub_you (https://www.flickr.com/photos/spongeg/), on Flickr

Saw that when arriving at YVR a couple days ago.. The construction is now completed and looks like there will be 2 (or maybe just 1?) temporary gates at the end of D pier.

Went to that part of the terminal about a month ago, and saw two new counters. One was signed "59" while the other on the right of it was unsigned. Chairs were added to that area where it was just an empty space before.

Not sure if those are new, or it was already like that when 59 was a remote stand this past summer...

Alpine
Dec 28, 2017, 11:04 PM
Happy holidays to all.

Lufthansa had a special promotion underway where they introduced the 747-8i on the FRA-SEA (11/6~12/31 replacing the regular 744) and FRA-DXB (10/16~10/28 replacing regular 333). And that got me wondering why YVR doesn't get a lot of 747-8i's or A380s, like from the Euro flag carriers. After all, if LH can send an A380 to Delhi, and a 747-8i to Dubai, surely they can throw a 388 or 74H Vancouver's way.

Sure, we get plenty of 787s and A350s, and that's great, but quadjet flagships are hard to come by. All that money the YVR airport authority spent to retrofit the gates as A380-compliant, and we didn't get our first A380 flight until 2016 (and even then, it's a May-September flight only, not year round). We didn't get our first non-freight 747-8i (CX and KE had sent 747-8F to YVR on cargo flights) until 2016 either. Lufthansa and Air France do not send 747-8is/A380s to YVR.

In fact, if the Port of Seattle had actually bothered to spend money on A380-gates, Sea-Tac would have beaten us to the first A380 service in the Pacific Northwest; Emirates would have sent over its A380s instead of the weird mix of morning 77L/evening 77W (Sea-Tac has no A380 gates at present). Anyway, EK discontinued the morning 77L flight after the Trump Administration's immigration ban came into force.

Then it occured to me that maybe YVR doesn't get as much 747-8is or A380s as a destination like LAX, SFO or JFK, because Vancouver is low-yielding destination in general. So, I did some research.

BA's 747s on the London Heathrow-Vancouver route are always Mid-J. These planes have the lowest number of Club World seats and the highest number of World Traveller seats. The proportion of seats taken up by premium cabins (First, CW, WT+) is 30.2%; on a Hi-J, this proportion is 39.1%, and on a Super Hi-J, almost half of the seats are First, CW or WT+.

It turns out that BA likes putting A380s on routes with a lot of business travel, where higher frequency is not required: e.g. LHR-JNB, BOS, LAX, etc. This is because there are pretty much zero available takeoff/landing slots at Heathrow, so 2-3 744s can be collapsed down to 1-2 daily 388 departures (like what happened with the LHR-LAX route). The A380 used during summer has 469 seats; 35.4% of seats are premium seats.

For destinations with high-frequency corporate travel like JFK or SFO, Super Hi-J 744s are used, and capacity is sacrificed for more frequent departures. These only happen with the absolute highest-demand routes, since takeoff/landing slots at Heathrow are so expensive. Also, BA flies out of Terminal 7 in JFK, which has no A380 gates.

BA used to fly 12x 744s to YVR in summer, I'm guessing to attract the Alaska cruise ship tourist crowds. It seems logical that since Vancouver is a low-yielding destination anyway, BA decided to switch from 12 weekly 744 to daily 388 in order free up a landing spot at Heathrow. In addition, with AC expanding Vancouver-London service in summer using its high-density 77Ws and 789s, I think that BA decided to shift its Vancouver strategy away from the VFR/O&D crowd, and more towards business travellers headed to destinations for which direct flights from YVR are not economical. i.e., BA sent its premium-heavy A380 to attract business travellers that fly to their hub in London, then connect to an onward flight via BA's vast network in Europe, Africa and the Middle East: New Delhi, Istanbul, Dubai, Athens. BA knows that the Chinese carriers have cornered the market when it comes to budget/VFR travel to South Asia, so it's going after an more upmarket clientele. At least, that's what I think.

Similar logic can be applied to Lufthansa. YVR gets the premium-light 3-class 744 (as do other destinations like DXB, SEA, SAN) with 26.7% of seats being Business or Premium Economy. Although their 388s are premium-light, it also means they have enormous capacity--40 more seats than BA's 388s. Perhaps Lufthansa just didn't think there was enough demand for a 509 seat 388 to Vancouver. This logic can be applied to AF's 772s, KL's 333s/789s, etc. Premium-light aircraft for a low-yielding destination.

I also find it very interesting that non-Air Canada longhaul flights to YVR still rely on hub-and-spoke model using 744s, 77Ws, 388s and 346s, instead of the point-to-point model pioneered by the 789/359. Maybe it has something to do with Vancouver's geographic isolation.

Gordon
Dec 29, 2017, 7:55 PM
According to the Dec. YVR Air Mail Hoarding has been erected near gates D 55 &
58 for terminal expansion. Gate D59? There seems to be more use of D/E Swing gates especially D75.

thenoflyzone
Dec 31, 2017, 6:07 PM
After all, if LH can send an A380 to Delhi, and a 747-8i to Dubai, surely they can throw a 388 or 74H Vancouver's way.

LH send the A380/B748 to DEL and BOM because those airports are slot constrained. BOM is at capacity for most of the day, as it is a single runway airport for all intents and purposes. (They dont use the crossing runway simultaneously)

So in order to maximize connectivity through FRA, LH send their biggest birds to India.

YVR, even though it is a level 3 slot controlled airport, is not at capacity. Add the fact that Canada in general isn't a premium market, and you have all the reasons you need to figure out why LH doesn't send the A380 to YVR.

As you said, BA sending the A380 to YVR has more to do with freeing up slots at LHR than anything else.

AF tried the A380 to YUL. It didnt' last. The only reason why EK sends the A380 to YYZ is because they are restricted in terms of frequency to Canada. So of the 3 airlines that serve/served Canada with the A380, one failed, and the other two do it due to capacity restrictions.

Proof that the A380 is useful only to a handful of airlines. Meaning, the whole program is a flop. Besides, the production line will close in less than 10 years. (http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/12/28/a380-production-ending/) Yes, it is a tactic to get EK to order more A380s, but ultimately, it will fail, and the line will close.

trofirhen
Dec 31, 2017, 10:12 PM
LH send the A380/B748 to DEL and BOM because those airports are slot constrained. BOM is at capacity for most of the day, as it is a single runway airport for all intents and purposes. (They dont use the crossing runway simultaneously)

So in order to maximize connectivity through FRA, LH send their biggest birds to India. /edited out, please excuse me/ .....

Proof that the A380 is useful only to a handful of airlines. Meaning, the whole program is a flop. Besides, the production line will close in less than 10 years. (http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/12/28/a380-production-ending/) Yes, it is a tactic to get EK to order more A380s, but ultimately, it will fail, and the line will close.
Interesting about the A380. Rather a "white elephant situation" for most routes, it seems.
Doing a 180°, which airplane type(s) do you think will be more and more used in future?

casper
Jan 1, 2018, 8:23 AM
....
Proof that the A380 is useful only to a handful of airlines. Meaning, the whole program is a flop. Besides, the production line will close in less than 10 years. (http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/12/28/a380-production-ending/) Yes, it is a tactic to get EK to order more A380s, but ultimately, it will fail, and the line will close.

AC is probably a good example of where the rest of the industry is going. The use to operate 747-400 (and the earlier models before that). They are now long gone, however they just pretty close to the same number of people into their 777-300. They have 50 fewer seats, but thouse are probably seats that need to be deeply discounted anyway.

Lancaster
Jan 2, 2018, 2:17 AM
Interesting about the A380. Rather a "white elephant situation" for most routes, it seems.
Doing a 180°, which airplane type(s) do you think will be more and more used in future?

YVR already gets a great mix of aircraft of all stripes. If you think of all the types of large commercial aircraft made by Boeing and Airbus I think YVR sees all of them (save the old ones).

As for what can be expected in the future - CSeries, 737 MAX, more 787s, more A350s, maybe A330neos to replace existing A330-200 traffic, and additional 777s sprinkled in from time to time on major routes.

Gordon
Jan 3, 2018, 3:20 PM
According to a response I received from the YvR Customer call center the temporary gate being added on D pier will be ready in a few months. With that gate & more us of D75 , this should make it unnecessary to use the remote stands.

SFUVancouver
Jan 3, 2018, 6:13 PM
From Airliners.net:

Delta removes planned 717 Los Angeles – Vancouver S17 service
Posted 4 April 2017 08:30
Delta Airlines in the last few weeks updated planned Los Angeles – Vancouver service, for summer 2017 season. From 01MAY17 to 25AUG17, 1 of 2 daily service will be operated by Mainline Airbus A319, replacing Compass Airlines Embraer E175 aircraft. Planned A319 operational schedule as follow.

DL2929 LAX0915 – 1215YVR 319 6
DL2929 LAX0920 – 1220YVR 319 x6

DL2928 YVR1402 – 1658LAX 319 x3
DL2928 YVR1404 – 1700LAX 319 3


http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1359679&sid=352a0c52c9c5fa0c9f7267dc6e9d93bc

Johnny Aussie
Jan 3, 2018, 9:50 PM
From Airliners.net:



http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1359679&sid=352a0c52c9c5fa0c9f7267dc6e9d93bc

Ummmmm

They were taking 2017.

This route is being cut in a couple of months. YVR-LAX on DL is gonzo!

LeftCoaster
Jan 3, 2018, 9:52 PM
I guess a casualty of the Delta/WJ JV.

LeftCoaster
Jan 3, 2018, 10:45 PM
Rumour is Cathay is going to go A359 on the remaining HKG-YVR terminator frequencies. The HKG-YVR-JFK route will stay 77W.

So YVR would see 10x A359 and 7x 777W.

Doesn't look like a big capacity change either way. Hopefully they are able to go 21x 359 soon.

Alpine
Jan 4, 2018, 2:11 AM
LH send the A380/B748 to DEL and BOM because those airports are slot constrained. BOM is at capacity for most of the day, as it is a single runway airport for all intents and purposes. (They dont use the crossing runway simultaneously)

So in order to maximize connectivity through FRA, LH send their biggest birds to India.

YVR, even though it is a level 3 slot controlled airport, is not at capacity. Add the fact that Canada in general isn't a premium market, and you have all the reasons you need to figure out why LH doesn't send the A380 to YVR.

As you said, BA sending the A380 to YVR has more to do with freeing up slots at LHR than anything else.


Actually, I wonder what YVR's annual air traffic capacity limit is. BAA caps Heathrow's ATMs at 480,000 (a figure that has been quoted ad nauseam by the British papers whenever they cover Heathrow's congestion) which means LHR is running at 98% capacity, but I'm not sure if YVR's ATM cap or their % capacity is publicly available.

Also, how can one tell which destinations are premium markets and which aren't? I can only hazard a guess, but I think that SFO and LAX are both premium markets, while San Diego (SAN) is a more lower-yielding market due to San Diego's close proximity to L.A., and the city being a lifestyle destination with a small economy (almost like Vancouver, as a matter of fact). What kind of information can one use to judge whether an airport or country is a big premium destination, and which is an O&D/VFR/leisure destination?

Speaking of SAN, isn't that third Jazz flight continuing to/from YYC? I guess this is because AC is targeting tourists who want a warm-climate getaway.

casper
Jan 4, 2018, 2:32 AM
Actually, I wonder what YVR's annual air traffic capacity limit is. BAA caps Heathrow's ATMs at 480,000 (a figure that has been quoted ad nauseam by the British papers whenever they cover Heathrow's congestion) which means LHR is running at 98% capacity, but I'm not sure if YVR's ATM cap or their % capacity is publicly available.

Also, how can one tell which destinations are premium markets and which aren't? I can only hazard a guess, but I think that SFO and LAX are both premium markets, while San Diego (SAN) is a more lower-yielding market due to San Diego's close proximity to L.A., and the city being a lifestyle destination with a small economy (almost like Vancouver, as a matter of fact). What kind of information can one use to judge whether an airport or country is a big premium destination, and which is an O&D/VFR/leisure destination?

Speaking of SAN, isn't that third Jazz flight continuing to/from YYC? I guess this is because AC is targeting tourists who want a warm-climate getaway.

I have no access to any data, so my comment is based on an educated guess and not any inside knowledge.

I would assume SAN as a destination has reasonably yielding and gets a lot of business traffic in general. That is primarily due to have a large military presence. I would expect a lot of military and military contractor travel.

The problem for AC is the US has a law that basically says US employees and those working under contract to the US must travel on US airlines. That generally shuts AC out of that travel. The one exception where AC may still benefit is the definition of US airlines includes code-share flights. If it an AC operated flight sold as a United flight then it would be acceptable for US government travel.

nname
Jan 4, 2018, 3:54 AM
According to a response I received from the YvR Customer call center the temporary gate being added on D pier will be ready in a few months. With that gate & more us of D75 , this should make it unnecessary to use the remote stands.

Let's see...

D75 was mainly used by PR for their MNL-YVR-YYZ and MNL-YVR-JFK. With one of the flight no longer stop here and the replacement arrives early evening, that saves 1 slot.

AC's cancellation of LGW flight and additional LHR flight falls outside of the peak time, no gate change

AC's new ZRH and CDG flight uses up 1 slot.

AC's reduction in KIX and NGO just pretty much moved to DUB that departs at around the same time, so no change.

HU have not yet announced their schedule, or whether they even going to fly here or not.

KL's flight from AMS is pushed back by 2.5hr to about 4pm arrival next summer, just after the peak, so that's 1 slot saved.

AA's new flight to ORD, and AC's new addition of SAN, SMF all fall outside of the peak time.

DL's cancellation of LAX save a slot.

All the Mexico changes fall outside of peak hours, and all other seems to be unchanged. Do I miss anything?

That gives a total of -2 gate compared to last year. Since last year was 2 gates short, the existing terminal should be barely enough event without the temporary gate. They'll have to use gate D76 and sometimes even D77 for international departure though (current airport setup allows up to D78).


One thing I've noticed when my flight arrived at D49 the other day is that they actually allows both D48 and D49 for international departure. Not sure if the domestic terminal is full at that time so D48 is rarely used and both gates are only used for arrivals...

spoonman
Jan 4, 2018, 3:45 PM
Actually, I wonder what YVR's annual air traffic capacity limit is. BAA caps Heathrow's ATMs at 480,000 (a figure that has been quoted ad nauseam by the British papers whenever they cover Heathrow's congestion) which means LHR is running at 98% capacity, but I'm not sure if YVR's ATM cap or their % capacity is publicly available.

Also, how can one tell which destinations are premium markets and which aren't? I can only hazard a guess, but I think that SFO and LAX are both premium markets, while San Diego (SAN) is a more lower-yielding market due to San Diego's close proximity to L.A., and the city being a lifestyle destination with a small economy (almost like Vancouver, as a matter of fact). What kind of information can one use to judge whether an airport or country is a big premium destination, and which is an O&D/VFR/leisure destination?

Speaking of SAN, isn't that third Jazz flight continuing to/from YYC? I guess this is because AC is targeting tourists who want a warm-climate getaway.

FYI - San Diego's GDP (Economy) is double the size of Vancouver's, larger than Montreal's, and nearly as large as Toronto's. SD's GDP is the size of Vancouver's, Ottawa, and Quebec City put together. The city is out-shined by the massiveness of LA next door, but San Diego is significant in population, economy, and as a top destination in it's own right.

phesto
Jan 4, 2018, 4:52 PM
FYI - San Diego's GDP (Economy) is double the size of Vancouver's, larger than Montreal's, and nearly as large as Toronto's. SD's GDP is the size of Vancouver's, Ottawa, and Quebec City put together. The city is out-shined by the massiveness of LA next door, but San Diego is significant in population, economy, and as a top destination in it's own right.

Not to get too off topic, but a lot of out of towners don't realize how big the Navy is in San Diego (aside from seeing naval officers in uniform around town). I was shocked to learn that the Navy represents a quarter of San Diego's economy.

thenoflyzone
Jan 4, 2018, 8:13 PM
Not to get too off topic, but a lot of out of towners don't realize how big the Navy is in San Diego (aside from seeing naval officers in uniform around town). I was shocked to learn that the Navy represents a quarter of San Diego's economy.

I'm surprised it's not more.

San Diego has the largest naval fleet in the world. Also, the city is a foreign trade zone (another GDP booster)....

trofirhen
Jan 4, 2018, 9:03 PM
I'm surprised it's not more.

San Diego has the largest naval fleet in the world. Also, the city is a foreign trade zone (another GDP booster)....

I'm just surprised that, with the number of Canadians living there, vacationing there, or just going on business of whatever sort,
that there isn't a year-round nonstop, not this seasonal stuff.

vanlaw
Jan 4, 2018, 10:11 PM
I'm just surprised that, with the number of Canadians living there, vacationing there, or just going on business of whatever sort,
that there isn't a year-round nonstop, not this seasonal stuff.

What leads you to believe there isn't year round non-stop?

LeftCoaster
Jan 4, 2018, 11:09 PM
FYI - San Diego's GDP (Economy) is double the size of Vancouver's, larger than Montreal's, and nearly as large as Toronto's. SD's GDP is the size of Vancouver's, Ottawa, and Quebec City put together. The city is out-shined by the massiveness of LA next door, but San Diego is significant in population, economy, and as a top destination in it's own right.

I'd imagine the reason the small economy perception exists here is because there is almost no business ties between Vancouver and San Diego outside of real estate and a bit of tech. What is big economically in SAN is not big in YVR and vice versa.

What leads you to believe there isn't year round non-stop?

I guess triple daily year round service isn't enough? :shrug:

Johnny Aussie
Jan 5, 2018, 12:38 AM
I'd imagine the reason the small economy perception exists here is because there is almost no business ties between Vancouver and San Diego outside of real estate and a bit of tech. What is big economically in SAN is not big in YVR and vice versa.


I guess triple daily year round service isn't enough? :shrug:

Uh huh!

It still blows my mind that with all the information online that some frequent posters in the YVR thread are still so naive about Vancouver operations. Instead a forever constant whinging about lack of service... a lack of service that isn't lack.... read the press releases do some very elementary sleuthing... All one has to do is a quick simple search on aircanada.com (for example) and VOILA the information is right there at the tip of anyone's fingers.

:shrug: is right!

trofirhen
Jan 5, 2018, 6:59 AM
I'd imagine the reason the small economy perception exists here is because there is almost no business ties between Vancouver and San Diego outside of real estate and a bit of tech. What is big economically in SAN is not big in YVR and vice versa.



I guess triple daily year round service isn't enough? :shrug:

I stand corrected. I had thought that SAN direct was seasonal. I was wrong, excuse me please.

CareerShow
Jan 5, 2018, 9:02 AM
Let's see...

D75 was mainly used by PR for their MNL-YVR-YYZ and MNL-YVR-JFK. With one of the flight no longer stop here and the replacement arrives early evening, that saves 1 slot.

AC's cancellation of LGW flight and additional LHR flight falls outside of the peak time, no gate change

AC's new ZRH and CDG flight uses up 1 slot.

AC's reduction in KIX and NGO just pretty much moved to DUB that departs at around the same time, so no change.

HU have not yet announced their schedule, or whether they even going to fly here or not.

KL's flight from AMS is pushed back by 2.5hr to about 4pm arrival next summer, just after the peak, so that's 1 slot saved.

AA's new flight to ORD, and AC's new addition of SAN, SMF all fall outside of the peak time.

DL's cancellation of LAX save a slot.

All the Mexico changes fall outside of peak hours, and all other seems to be unchanged. Do I miss anything?

That gives a total of -2 gate compared to last year. Since last year was 2 gates short, the existing terminal should be barely enough event without the temporary gate. They'll have to use gate D76 and sometimes even D77 for international departure though (current airport setup allows up to D78).


One thing I've noticed when my flight arrived at D49 the other day is that they actually allows both D48 and D49 for international departure. Not sure if the domestic terminal is full at that time so D48 is rarely used and both gates are only used for arrivals...

How much has KIX and NGO been reduced by? It would be great if we could further "De-Rouge" these long haul routes, including Hawaii. Any flight over 2.5 hours with Rouge service and seat pitch/width is too long.

Any hope of Boston possibly being upgauged to a widebody? 6.5 hours in an a319 is a long time....

Johnny Aussie
Jan 5, 2018, 5:23 PM
Just looking at flights tomorrow out of YVR. I’m flying home tomorrow... booo!
Although I’m happy to miss Melbourne’s 42 degree high today!

FACT: there are 6 nonstop flights to the South Pacific tomorrow.

With Air NZ adding extra flights for the peak northern winter travel season, Qantas’s seasonal flights continuing for a few more weeks and AC’s recent nonstops to MEL - a big YAY!

2 flights to SYD - AC 77L and QF 744
2 flights to AKL - NZ 772s
1 flight to MEL - AC 789
1 flight to BNE - AC 788

Looking forward to checking out the new Int’l MLL.

LeftCoaster
Jan 5, 2018, 11:01 PM
That's wild, never thought I'd see a day with 6 flights to Aus/NZ. Not much to add to that roster other than hope it becomes more stable year round and less seasonal.

Intl MLL is good but not great. Was in there a couple weeks ago, it's a vast improvement over the old but no where near other *A hub lounges. Surprisingly better than YYZ though.

When I was there they were still working on the upstairs and it was roped off, so that might be cool.

mezzanine
Jan 6, 2018, 1:10 AM
WRT the intl MLL the upstairs was still closed over xmas when I went there. The chef's station is only active during lunch and dinner times AFAIK, so if you are there mid afternoon or evenings you may be out of luck for fresh cooked food. no more self-access for spirits (you have to ask a bartender now, like at MLL LHR), but the beer tap is still freely-accessed, right by the other dispensed drinks (for some reason, unlike LHR...)

vanlaw
Jan 6, 2018, 1:19 AM
Leftcoaster - is there a way to pin your fantastic YVR route/carrier/frequency spreadsheet somewhere in this thread? I find myself digging back through pages from time to time to try to find it.

Edit: found the latest one on page 595

Johnny Aussie
Jan 6, 2018, 6:17 AM
WRT the intl MLL the upstairs was still closed over xmas when I went there. The chef's station is only active during lunch and dinner times AFAIK, so if you are there mid afternoon or evenings you may be out of luck for fresh cooked food. no more self-access for spirits (you have to ask a bartender now, like at MLL LHR), but the beer tap is still freely-accessed, right by the other dispensed drinks (for some reason, unlike LHR...)

Hmmm. With the three Aussie flights, plus UA to ORD and BR to TPE I would hope for a decent selection in the late evening... will find out tomorrow!

nname
Jan 6, 2018, 8:58 AM
Hmmm. With the three Aussie flights, plus UA to ORD and BR to TPE I would hope for a decent selection in the late evening... will find out tomorrow!

BR don't use MLL though. AC doesn't code share the flight either, so everyone must have BR ticket so they can't use it (?)

BR and CA uses plaza premium in YVR... Seems like Star Alliance are more restrictive in sharing lounges?

Johnny Aussie
Jan 6, 2018, 7:30 PM
BR don't use MLL though. AC doesn't code share the flight either, so everyone must have BR ticket so they can't use it (?)

BR and CA uses plaza premium in YVR... Seems like Star Alliance are more restrictive in sharing lounges?

AC cannot refuse a Star Alliance Gold Member travelling on a Star Alliance member flight... even if that airline uses a contract lounge. The only exception is UA in the US for their own gold members.

Therefore, even EVA Air passengers can use the MLL if they wish.

http://www.staralliance.com/en/lounge-access-policy

Refer specifically to.... Star Alliance Gold Customers travelling in any class

I do this all the time everywhere. Never been refused at a lounge as long as it has “Gold” at its entrance.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 7, 2018, 5:46 AM
Decor and fixtures quite elegant actually.

Still doesn’t seem big enough. And yup, the upstairs is cordoned off... booo.

There is an ok cooked selection too...
Teriyaki chicken, Miso Cod a couple of other accompaniment hot dishes.... 2 types of soups, 3 salads, crudités (including edamame). Nice selection of beverages. Guinness on tap along with 5 other choices of self serve beer. And bar tender service in full swing.

zahav
Jan 9, 2018, 7:34 AM
November traffic posted, and an even better result than the last few months! Domestic up 6%, Transborder up 12.7% (!), Asia up 15.2%, Europe up 11.6% (finally some good figures in this sector!) and Misc. up 27.1%. Total international (incl. transborder) up 14.6%, and 16.6% international only. Unreal! YTD total traffic up 8.3% with one month left to go.

I posted over in the Canada Airport Thread that for YTD (up until October) YVR has the fastest transborder and total international growth of the Big 4 airports (and probably all the others, I only check stats for YYZ, YVR, YUL, and YYC). I will be curious when 2017 traffic totals come out for all North American airports, where YVR is this year for total international traffic. And yes that includes transborder, because for international comparison purposes, there is only domestic and international.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 9, 2018, 7:53 AM
November traffic posted, and an even better result than the last few months! Domestic up 6%, Transborder up 12.7% (!), Asia up 15.2%, Europe up 11.6% (finally some good figures in this sector!) and Misc. up 27.1%. Total international (incl. transborder) up 14.6%, and 16.6% international only. Unreal! YTD total traffic up 8.3% with one month left to go.

I posted over in the Canada Airport Thread that for YTD (up until October) YVR has the fastest transborder and total international growth of the Big 4 airports (and probably all the others, I only check stats for YYZ, YVR, YUL, and YYC). I will be curious when 2017 traffic totals come out for all North American airports, where YVR is this year for total international traffic. And yes that includes transborder, because for international comparison purposes, there is only domestic and international.

Excellent! Thanks for the update.

Sooooo for YVR to exceed 24,000,000 December 2017 only has to exceed 2016’s by 10,000 pax. I don’t think YVR is going to just squeak by 24M but blast through it! I stand by my prediction that I was the 24 millionth passenger.

I too am curious how YVR will compare with other NA airports when total 2017 international figures come out. YTD through November, for example, YVR already exceeded YUL by over 1,000,000 pax compared to total 2016 it was about 850,000 only.

LeftCoaster
Jan 9, 2018, 10:52 PM
Haha you just may be right, they should give you a free flight for it!

My calculations show us hitting about 24.15 million for the year. Pretty amazing accomplishment.

Growth will definitely slow next year though as the capacity adds have not been as numerous as last year.

nname
Jan 10, 2018, 12:18 AM
Haha you just may be right, they should give you a free flight for it!

My calculations show us hitting about 24.15 million for the year. Pretty amazing accomplishment.

Growth will definitely slow next year though as the capacity adds have not been as numerous as last year.

Well, some of the added capacity have not been fully taken up so far, maybe some planes can fit a few more people that can easily give a few hundred thousands additional passengers...

Like the ones shown in orange and red for Jan-Mar 2017 stat (source: US Dept of Transportation)

Airport Airline Pass Seat LF
BIL CP 76 76 100%
DEN OO 370 420 88%
UA 43244 52580 82%
DFW AA 48158 53758 90%
QK 4669 7050 66%
EWR AC 35561 52164 68%
FCA OO 70 76 92%
HNL RV 45229 49349 92%
WS 55394 60274 92%
IAH UA 24758 27535 90%
JFK CX 26069 47300 55%
PR 15602 37740 41%
KOA RV 5755 6446 89%
WS 26815 30240 89%
LAS AC 1875 2270 83%
CP 622 898 69%
RV 55828 67362 83%
WS 43442 50004 87%
LAX AC 96028 107010 90%
CP 43102 53870 80%
OO 12750 14304 89%
WS 62869 76114 83%
LIH WS 25406 30240 84%
MCO WS 7050 8340 85%
MSP CP 20290 21997 92%
DL 5642 6081 93%
OO 333 380 88%
OGG RV 41954 49629 85%
WS 52334 60144 87%
ORD AC 13431 17558 76%
UA 32805 37167 88%
PDX QK 31631 49746 64%
QX 10488 13224 79%
PHX AA 28915 31360 92%
RV 18019 23122 78%
WS 26001 30240 86%
PSP RV 14400 19176 75%
WS 48509 59074 82%
SAN QK 12421 13350 93%
SEA AC 139 146 95%
AS 42857 58158 74%
CP 4027 4847 83%
OO 38709 48763 79%
QK 29764 47476 63%
QX 29447 37544 78%
SFO AC 57900 74477 78%
OO 6785 7410 92%
RV 119 136 88%
UA 68897 83955 82%
SJC QK 19547 25950 75%
SLC CP 211 221 95%
OO 10898 13168 83%
SNA WS 17784 19522 91%
TOTAL 1365156 1689716 81%

LeftCoaster
Jan 10, 2018, 12:28 AM
Yep good point, loads can be improved. Hopefully there are a few more route announcements or upgauges to come too though!

casper
Jan 10, 2018, 1:52 AM
Yep good point, loads can be improved. Hopefully there are a few more route announcements or upgauges to come too though!

Some are weird flights and may be their for other reasons. Wonder if the Cathay flight to JFK is their in part for cargo or not.

Earlier in the month I was on the Alaska airlines 737-800 from Seattle that arrives close to midnight. They had to warn passengers not to change seats due to weight balance issue. Not certain on other days, but when I was on it load factors must have been under 30%. One person across from me was worried, he was connecting on to the late night Cathay departure to Hong Kong.

nname
Jan 10, 2018, 3:10 AM
As for Turkish... IF this rumour is true (I really don't like speculating from airliners.net but I will :haha:) and IF TK is gunning for a "Western Canada" clause, which they can then the bilateral can be amended to add Vancouver as a designated point served. Countries can add any clause they want as long as both parties agree to it. Perhaps AC won't object as they can easily codeshare with their Star Alliance partner to further strengthen their growing YVR hub. But the poster was specific about an amendment regarding Western Canada (YVR mentioned specifically).

:shrug:

And just read from airliners, TK asked for daily service to YVR in the December meeting, and the Canadian government granted them 3x weekly for YVR-IST.

Hourglass
Jan 10, 2018, 3:32 AM
And just read from airliners, TK asked for daily service to YVR in the December meeting, and the Canadian government granted them 3x weekly for YVR-IST.

I saw that too. Rumor is that TK is still holding out for 7x/weekly. Not sure they're going to get that - especially right at the beginning.

nname
Jan 10, 2018, 3:38 AM
I saw that too. Rumor is that TK is still holding out for 7x/weekly. Not sure they're going to get that - especially right at the beginning.

And the fact that both YYZ and YUL are not 7x weekly...

mezzanine
Jan 10, 2018, 4:17 AM
FWIW, craig richmond will have YVR's annual talk at the vancouver board of trade January 23. New announcements on the way?

trofirhen
Jan 10, 2018, 6:34 AM
And just read from airliners, TK asked for daily service to YVR in the December meeting, and the Canadian government granted them 3x weekly for YVR-IST.

Wow, even getting 3x weekly from Ottawa is an ccomplishment, imo. At least, as it would seem, they have their foot in the door. If they hold out, they may end with nothing. Nada. Zilch.
I saw that too. Rumor is that TK is still holding out for 7x/weekly. Not sure they're going to get that - especially right at the beginning.

Holding out for 7x weekly seems a bit unrealistic. Especially at YVR. I'd expect a request like that for YYZ, but not YVR.

thenoflyzone
Jan 10, 2018, 3:55 PM
TK will need to move some metal around in order to launch YVR. They have no more wide body deliveries until the 787s and A350s arrive. If YVR is to be launched in the summer of 2018, some short or mid haul routes will need to lose widebodies, or a currently operating long haul route will need to be canceled.

Link to TK fleet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines#Fleet

nname
Jan 10, 2018, 5:35 PM
Another A350 coming to Vancouver:

Lufthansa adds A350 Vancouver service from May 2018

Lufthansa during today’s schedule update (10JAN18) filed operational aircraft changes for its seasonal Munich – Vancouver route. From 01MAY18, the summer seasonal service will be operated by A350-900XWB on daily basis, replacing A330-300.

LH476 MUC1535 – 1645YVR 359 D
LH477 YVR1825 – 1320+1MUC 359 D

Source (https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/276619/lufthansa-adds-a350-vancouver-service-from-may-2018/)

mezzanine
Jan 10, 2018, 5:54 PM
Decor and fixtures quite elegant actually.

Still doesn’t seem big enough. And yup, the upstairs is cordoned off... booo.

There is an ok cooked selection too...
Teriyaki chicken, Miso Cod a couple of other accompaniment hot dishes.... 2 types of soups, 3 salads, crudités (including edamame). Nice selection of beverages. Guinness on tap along with 5 other choices of self serve beer. And bar tender service in full swing.

Is the chef station open late night? I was outbound on LH 492 which was delayed and saw them shut down the station after the lunch hour.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 10, 2018, 7:27 PM
Well, some of the added capacity have not been fully taken up so far, maybe some planes can fit a few more people that can easily give a few hundred thousands additional passengers...

Like the ones shown in orange and red for Jan-Mar 2017 stat

For what is considered some of the slowest months of the year for Air traffic some of those LFs are amazing!

And just read from airliners, TK asked for daily service to YVR in the December meeting, and the Canadian government granted them 3x weekly for YVR-IST.

Regardless what happens that’s good that TK was granted access. Now whether they use it or not?

Another A350 coming to Vancouver

That will also be a fairly big capacity boost on YVR-MUC. Now we
wait and see what they do with YVR-FRA.

Is the chef station open late night? I was outbound on LH 492 which was delayed and saw them shut down the station after the lunch hour.

No it wasn’t open. I was just referring to at least there were some decent cooked
food options late at night. In the past when it was just SYD departing it was abysmal.

thenoflyzone
Jan 10, 2018, 7:35 PM
Another A350 coming to Vancouver:


Some of those LH A333s had first class. Not sure if MUC-YVR had F class, but now that the route is going A359, there is definitely no more F class on the route.

YVR Bruce
Jan 10, 2018, 8:17 PM
From J Aussie:
[Now we
wait and see what they do with YVR-FRA.]

Given his past record, JA would have a better view, but I'll pose this guess:

With LH's unhappiness re FRA airport management, they'll continue bolstering MUC by moving YVR-FRA to A359 and running a longer season or year-round MUC link to maintain overall capacity. The latter is a pretty attractive and growing hub.

No doubt LH's 744 fleet decision will govern the timing of this.
If this were to happen, it might open space for AC's YVR-FRA link

trofirhen
Jan 10, 2018, 11:47 PM
Johnny Aussie;8042415]For what is considered some of the slowest months of the year for Air traffic some of those LFs are amazing!

Regardless what happens that’s good that TK was granted access. Now whether they use it or not?


Would they not be idiots (Turkish) to refuse it?:???: If they want more frequencies, can the Vancouver market provide enough yield? (Though EK seems to be doing very well out of SEA, attracting a number of BC pax, it seems)

mezzanine
Jan 11, 2018, 1:45 AM
No it wasn’t open. I was just referring to at least there were some decent cooked food options late at night. In the past when it was just SYD departing it was abysmal.

I'm just happy to have open access to the beer! I think it's Canadian charter right :cheers:

Johnny Aussie
Jan 11, 2018, 2:10 AM
I'm just happy to have open access to the beer! I think it's Canadian charter right :cheers:

I’m pretty sure last year they only had Canadian on tap. Now there were 6 options including Guinness... what a treat. Even had instructions for a proper pour of it.

nname
Jan 11, 2018, 10:02 AM
Seems like AC is increasing the length of some of the seasonal services...

YVR-BOS now runs from May 18 to Sept 23 (I remember it was just a bit over 2 months last year?)

YVR-YZF now starts Sept 5 for this winter (compared to December last year)

By the way, when did AC start having 4 dailies to YXY!? I remember the last time I checked there were only 2....

Johnny Aussie
Jan 11, 2018, 11:13 AM
Seems like AC is increasing the length of some of the seasonal services...

YVR-BOS now runs from May 18 to Sept 23 (I remember it was just a bit over 2 months last year?)

YVR-YZF now starts Sept 5 for this winter (compared to December last year)

By the way, when did AC start having 4 dailies to YXY!? I remember the last time I checked there were only 2....

More good news... these baby steps are also what’s needed to keep growth up.
Perhaps YZF will be added year round. And you’re right YVR-YXY has been 3 daily summer twice daily winter. The boost to 4 daily during peak summer is new this year.
EWR also bumping up to a 787-9. This flight used to rotate through with the BNE flight which remains a 787-8. Based on updated schedules looks like the BNE flight will now rotate through with a domestic leg to/from YUL.

Also for this summer:
*YQR (all DH4) and YXE (all CRA) are bumping up to 3 daily each. Capacity on YVR-YQR will equal that of YYC-YQR and YYC-YXE will have only 50 seats more per day than YVR-YXE... In my lifetime that’s the first time I’ve ever seen YVR-Saskatchewan almost the same capacity as YYC-Saskatchewan. Different story ar WestJet of course but indicates AC’s further building prominence at YVR is coming, among other places, at YYC’s expense. Looks like there will be more DH4 and CRAs based at YVR next summer... shifting from the prairies perhaps.
*YWG will be all mainline (3 x 320)
*YUL bumping up to 7 daily.

red-paladin
Jan 12, 2018, 4:38 AM
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/yvr-gets-vendor-to-reduce-cost-of-feminine-hygiene-products-1.4483914

YVR gets vendor to reduce cost of feminine hygiene products

A passenger said she had to pay three times the usual price for pads during a recent trip

thenoflyzone
Jan 14, 2018, 8:15 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/yvr-gets-vendor-to-reduce-cost-of-feminine-hygiene-products-1.4483914

YVR gets vendor to reduce cost of feminine hygiene products

A passenger said she had to pay three times the usual price for pads during a recent trip

They should rescind all 8 of YVR's skytrax awards ! This is unacceptable.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 14, 2018, 8:32 PM
UA has finally loaded the Sat only flights to IAD for the summer so summer 2018 is basically the same as 2017. As we all know UA is notorious for numerous changes but as it stands now. 15 daily - 13 mainline and 2 Express with 16 flights on Saturday with the extra IAD on 739s. DEN appears to be the only route scaling back with only 2 daily (1 mainline and 1 Express) - perhaps due to AC increasing to 3 daily.

YVR is the only city in Canada, served by UA, predominantly served by UA mainline. Even YYZ most UA Flights served by Express.
Actually same for AA as well 6 out of 7 daily flights next summer are mainline.
YVR is also the only Canadian city to be served by 4 mainline US carriers AS, AA, DL and UA. And as of this winter all 4 year round as DL to MSP is now daily year round mainline.
And one of the two daily SLC in DL bumping up to a 320 instead of a 319.

Is YVR the most US-mainline-served airport in Canada?

For summer 2018 at least:

YVR 25 higher on weekends closer to 28
YYZ 20
YYC 8
YEG 2
YUL 1

Sorry for the numerous edits... just keep finding more tidbits!
Changed the title as well.

excel
Jan 14, 2018, 10:06 PM
Thanks for the updates.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 16, 2018, 12:10 AM
Anybody going?

This year should be one the most exciting ones.

https://www.boardoftrade.com/events/individual-events/1185-6215

nname
Jan 16, 2018, 1:48 AM
Is that a hint that the game-changer is finally going to be announced? :D

Lancaster
Jan 16, 2018, 2:17 AM
Is YVR the most US-mainline-served airport in Canada?

For summer 2018 at least:

YVR 25 higher on weekends closer to 28
YYZ 20
YYC 8
YEG 2
YUL 1

Surely this must be because of cruise ship traffic, right? That, or AC/WS really don't swing nearly as big a stick at YVR as they should.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 16, 2018, 2:49 AM
Surely this must be because of cruise ship traffic, right? That, or AC/WS really don't swing nearly as big a stick at YVR as they should.

The cruise ship industry is definitely a huge contributor in the summer of course.
AC a big stick at YVR? Next summer they will be one daily flight shy of 40. Yes that’s right 39 daily flights. However they are not as mainline heavy as some of its US counterparts.
13 mainline
3 rouge
23 Express
That’s a very big transborder operation.
In 2015 AC had only 24 daily transborder flights.
WestJet will have 11 daily. About 3 less than YYC but that’s 8-9 more than YEG. YYC will have 12 daily AC transborder flights (3 mainline, 1 rouge and 8 Express) and YEG 1 Daily AC Express.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 16, 2018, 2:52 AM
Is that a hint that the game-changer is finally going to be announced? :D

I don’t think the BOT luncheons are the proper venue for new route announcements. I don’t recall there ever being one. He may drop some hints.

I’m thinking more along the lines of more details to the upcoming expansions.

Lancaster
Jan 16, 2018, 7:10 AM
AC a big stick at YVR? Next summer they will be one daily flight shy of 40. Yes that’s right 39 daily flights. However they are not as mainline heavy as some of its US counterparts.
13 mainline
3 rouge
23 Express
That’s a very big transborder operation.
In 2015 AC had only 24 daily transborder flights.

Thanks for this. With all the recent announcements it's sometimes hard to appreciate just how much has changed in such a short period of time. How it has grown!

Will be interesting to see if AC starts bringing the CS300s in on a lot of these Express routes as they mature.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 16, 2018, 7:30 AM
Thanks for this. With all the recent announcements it's sometimes hard to appreciate just how much has changed in such a short period of time. How it has grown!

Will be interesting to see if AC starts bringing the CS300s in on a lot of these Express routes as they mature.

And perhaps start new routes like Washington and Miami.

thenoflyzone
Jan 17, 2018, 2:48 AM
Surely this must be because of cruise ship traffic, right?

Cruise ship traffic helps for sure.

Stage length is also a reason why YVR sees more mainline flights compared to other Canadian airports. (ex. YVR-JFK or YVR-ATL is not doable on a feeder, whereas JFK-YUL/YYZ are)

Another thing to consider is scope clauses for US regionals.

All US majors have imposed restrictions towards their feeder airlines, known as scope clauses, The main restrictions are towards the number of planes (varies according to airline), max seating (76 seats) and max takeoff weight (86,000 lb MTOW). However, less known are the restrictions on certain airport pairs, stage lengths, block times, that the feeders cannot operate or exceed.

Some of these restrictions play in YVR's favor in having mainline operate (or continue to operate) the route instead of the feeders.

Ex. Delta feeders are restricted in the number of routes they can operate over 900 miles (less than 10%).

At UA for example, no new UA feeder flying is allowed on UA mainline routes flown in last 24 months, unless UA could not earn an adequate return on the route.

A good read (https://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.raa.org/resource/collection/94AF059E-5A95-48B7-B1A1-907FE7DF92E3/Swelbar_FAA_2010_FINAL.pdf), for those of you wanting to learn more about scope clauses.


For summer 2018 at least:

YVR 25 higher on weekends closer to 28
YYZ 20
YYC 8
YEG 2
YUL 1

Sorry for the numerous edits... just keep finding more tidbits!
Changed the title as well.

Oddly enough, YUL sees more mainline in winter than in summer. DL has winter seasonal mainline service to ATL.

Lancaster
Jan 17, 2018, 4:53 AM
Another thing to consider is scope clauses for US regionals.
However, less known are the restrictions on certain airport pairs, stage lengths, block times, that the feeders cannot operate or exceed.

Ex. Delta feeders are restricted in the number of routes they can operate over 900 miles (less than 10%).

At UA for example, no new UA feeder flying is allowed on UA mainline routes flown in last 24 months, unless UA could not earn an adequate return on the route.

I didn't realize scope clauses got that scientific! Thank you for the link, I will make sure and do some research!

zahav
Jan 17, 2018, 5:09 AM
UA has finally loaded the Sat only flights to IAD for the summer so summer 2018 is basically the same as 2017. As we all know UA is notorious for numerous changes but as it stands now. 15 daily - 13 mainline and 2 Express with 16 flights on Saturday with the extra IAD on 739s. DEN appears to be the only route scaling back with only 2 daily (1 mainline and 1 Express) - perhaps due to AC increasing to 3 daily.

YVR is the only city in Canada, served by UA, predominantly served by UA mainline. Even YYZ most UA Flights served by Express.
Actually same for AA as well 6 out of 7 daily flights next summer are mainline.
YVR is also the only Canadian city to be served by 4 mainline US carriers AS, AA, DL and UA. And as of this winter all 4 year round as DL to MSP is now daily year round mainline.
And one of the two daily SLC in DL bumping up to a 320 instead of a 319.

Is YVR the most US-mainline-served airport in Canada?

For summer 2018 at least:

YVR 25 higher on weekends closer to 28
YYZ 20
YYC 8
YEG 2
YUL 1

Sorry for the numerous edits... just keep finding more tidbits!
Changed the title as well.

I checked several random weeks and Denver is still 3 daily on UA, 2 mainline and 1 Express? Point me in the right direction if I'm missing it somewhere?

Johnny Aussie
Jan 17, 2018, 6:26 AM
I checked several random weeks and Denver is still 3 daily on UA, 2 mainline and 1 Express? Point me in the right direction if I'm missing it somewhere?

Yeah I was looking in July. By August 3 daily again. They are usually 3 daily for whole summer though.

zahav
Jan 17, 2018, 7:28 AM
Oh OK gotcha!!

I recently discovered Googe Flights (how pathetically late I know), and it is the best resource for anyone looking up flights between cities (not to buy tickets, but for AV geeks into schedules). OAG is the best but it's not free to use (only some airports have interactive timetables available on their website, liek YVR and SFO). Otherwise there was nowhere to get a proper list of flights, or at least that I knew of!

nname
Jan 17, 2018, 7:45 PM
This is the first 6+ months since AC joined the YVR-TPE route...

http://oi64.tinypic.com/302vvxc.jpg

A bit too much capacity? BR used to have over 85% LF every month and over 95% during peak season. Now for the first time I remember, they failed to achieve 70% LF in December... And December is sort of peak-season for the route too...

twoNeurons
Jan 17, 2018, 9:58 PM
Maybe I missed it... but what's YVR-KIX going to?

I'll admit that we actively avoid the Rouged YVR-KIX if there's a similarly priced connecting flight with JL/NH/AC. AC Rouge is intolerable on a 10-hour flight.

ANA's been pretty aggressive lately with prices into HND.

CareerShow
Jan 17, 2018, 11:29 PM
Maybe I missed it... but what's YVR-KIX going to?

I'll admit that we actively avoid the Rouged YVR-KIX if there's a similarly priced connecting flight with JL/NH/AC. AC Rouge is intolerable on a 10-hour flight.

ANA's been pretty aggressive lately with prices into HND.

Fully agree with you on Rouge. If you can fly mainline on AC or a different airline while adding an additional 2-3 hours of travel time its a no brainer from a comfort point of view, considering Rouge is only low cost for AC and not anyone else.

mezzanine
Jan 18, 2018, 1:33 AM
This is the first 6+ months since AC joined the YVR-TPE route...

http://oi64.tinypic.com/302vvxc.jpg

A bit too much capacity? BR used to have over 85% LF every month and over 95% during peak season. Now for the first time I remember, they failed to achieve 70% LF in December... And December is sort of peak-season for the route too...

IMO BR is getting double-teamed by CI and AC. The flight times from YVR to TPE for BR/CI are bad (~1am) but good for onward connecting traffic to other parts of asia. AC is likely taking most O/D traffic to/from Taiwan as it leaves during ~ lunch from YVR and is better for NA connections.

CI tends to have better pricing than BR as well.

out of curiosity, where can you look up LFs?

nname
Jan 18, 2018, 1:59 AM
IMO BR is getting double-teamed by CI and AC. The flight times from YVR to TPE for BR/CI are bad (~1am) but good for onward connecting traffic to other parts of asia. AC is likely taking most O/D traffic to/from Taiwan as it leaves during ~ lunch from YVR and is better for NA connections.

CI tends to have better pricing than BR as well.

out of curiosity, where can you look up LFs?

Isn't AC/BR supposed to team up against CI? That doesn't seems to work so well...

Another thing I've noticed that AC seems to have the most consistent LF not only on monthly basis, but on each direction too. Here is the December stat:

->TPE ->YVR
AC 85.6% 79.6%
BR 77.0% 62.5%
CI 91.6% 71.7%

For this month, it is normal to have more people going to TPE while it is reversed for next month (there is no break over Christmas in Taiwan). Based on this year's calender, the peak travel for YVR->TPE should be around Dec 9 - 22; and for TPE->YVR around Dec 29 - Jan 7. But there seems not much difference in AC's LF for both direction. And from past experience the TPE->YVR flights are usually full for the last few days of the year, the LF for BR for the beginning of the month must be very very low...

If you can read Chinese, here's the source (http://www.caa.gov.tw/Big5/content/index.asp?sno=969)

mezzanine
Jan 18, 2018, 2:28 AM
Isn't AC/BR supposed to team up against CI? That doesn't seems to work so well...

Another thing I've noticed that AC seems to have the most consistent LF not only on monthly basis, but on each direction too. Here is the December stat:

->TPE ->YVR
AC 85.6% 79.6%
BR 77.0% 62.5%
CI 91.6% 71.7%

For this month, it is normal to have more people going to TPE while it is reversed for next month (there is no break over Christmas in Taiwan). Based on this year's calender, the peak travel for YVR->TPE should be around Dec 9 - 22; and for TPE->YVR around Dec 29 - Jan 7. But there seems not much difference in AC's LF for both direction. And from past experience the TPE->YVR flights are usually full for the last few days of the year, the LF for BR for the beginning of the month must be very very low...

If you can read Chinese, here's the source (http://www.caa.gov.tw/Big5/content/index.asp?sno=969)

Thanks for the link.

In the absence of a joint venture agreement (http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/10/12/interline-codeshare-alliances-joint-ventures/) with BR (AC has them with LH and UA, for instance) IMO there won't be a lot of close cooperation with AC and really would be more of a 'frenemy' competitor.

searching on google flights, most connections on AC to the rest of asia seem to be on ANA thru japan or even interlines with KE and CX via ICN and HKG respectively. I haven't seen any connections with AC and BR via TPE come up as a single trip.

nname
Jan 18, 2018, 2:54 AM
Thanks for the link.

In the absence of a joint venture agreement (http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/10/12/interline-codeshare-alliances-joint-ventures/) with BR (AC has them with LH and UA, for instance) IMO there won't be a lot of close cooperation with AC and really would be more of a 'frenemy' competitor.

searching on google flights, most connections on AC to the rest of asia seem to be on ANA thru japan or even interlines with KE and CX via ICN and HKG respectively. I haven't seen any connections with AC and BR via TPE come up as a single trip.

Which I finds very interesting, because at TPE, basically BR is responsible for everything that happens outside of the plane, including ticketing, check-in, print boarding pass, baggaging, announcements, boarding, and any other customer services. AC plane always parked in one of the BR gates, among all the BR planes, uses BR check-in counter (with screen changes to AC for the duration), uses BR connection counter with agent calling all passengers from AC11 connecting to Thai Airways (!). You will not see any AC personnel until you actually get onto the plane.... and yet there's no cooperation....

casper
Jan 18, 2018, 4:19 AM
Which I finds very interesting, because at TPE, basically BR is responsible for everything that happens outside of the plane, including ticketing, check-in, print boarding pass, baggaging, announcements, boarding, and any other customer services. AC plane always parked in one of the BR gates, among all the BR planes, uses BR check-in counter (with screen changes to AC for the duration), uses BR connection counter with agent calling all passengers from AC11 connecting to Thai Airways (!). You will not see any AC personnel until you actually get onto the plane.... and yet there's no cooperation....

AC contracts BR to provide the staff and facilities to perform those functions. Basically if the AC flight is empty or full, BR makes the same amount of money out of the deal.

In the case of the arrangement AC has with Lufthansa as an example, both airlines financially pool the expenses of operating the flights between Canada and Europe. They then split the profit. It is more of a joint venture type setup.

mezzanine
Jan 18, 2018, 4:52 AM
Which I finds very interesting, because at TPE, basically BR is responsible for everything that happens outside of the plane, including ticketing, check-in, print boarding pass, baggaging, announcements, boarding, and any other customer services. AC plane always parked in one of the BR gates, among all the BR planes, uses BR check-in counter (with screen changes to AC for the duration), uses BR connection counter with agent calling all passengers from AC11 connecting to Thai Airways (!). You will not see any AC personnel until you actually get onto the plane.... and yet there's no cooperation....

^ I wouldn't say there's no cooperation bet AC and BR.

To walk myself back a bit, the timing of AC's and BR's YVR-TPE flight seems to be optimized to feed into their networks respectively. AC seems to be taking more of BR's traffic. If they had a JV, BR would not be worried as things like revenue sharing on the routes would be available for BR and AC.

They would have to cooperate along the lines of alliance rules (check-in, ground staff, lounges, etc). otherwise i am not sure what leverage BR has with AC to share the wealth.


Interesting how AC flights to BKK via TPE are with TG and not BR.

casper
Jan 18, 2018, 5:27 AM
^ I wouldn't say there's no cooperation bet AC and BR.

To walk myself back a bit, the timing of AC's and BR's YVR-TPE flight seems to be optimized to feed into their networks respectively. AC seems to be taking more of BR's traffic. If they had a JV, BR would not be worried as things like revenue sharing on the routes would be available for BR and AC.

They would have to cooperate along the lines of alliance rules (check-in, ground staff, lounges, etc). otherwise i am not sure what leverage BR has with AC to share the wealth.


Interesting how AC flights to BKK via TPE are with TG and not BR.

AC And BR have had a "distant friends type relationship" going back years. I remember flying BR from TPE to YVR about 10 years ago on an AC code share. This was before BR joined Star Alliance. You could only pre-book your seat in this small block near the rear of the 747 allocated to AC customers. Checking in at TPE as soon as they saw it was an AC code share involved a phone call and someone coming over with some pre-printed paper work. They asked for your Aeroplan number and made another phone call dictated the number over the phone to another agent that would handle the points credit.

twoNeurons
Jan 18, 2018, 6:31 AM
Sooo...

Anyone have a news release or an article about what's happening to YVR-KIX?

Johnny Aussie
Jan 18, 2018, 6:35 AM
Sooo...

Anyone have a news release or an article about what's happening to YVR-KIX?

What do you mean a press release or an article about what’s happening?

Nothing’s happening. It’s still seasonal rouge.

Vagabond
Jan 18, 2018, 7:18 AM
IMO BR is getting double-teamed by CI and AC. The flight times from YVR to TPE for BR/CI are bad (~1am) but good for onward connecting traffic to other parts of asia. AC is likely taking most O/D traffic to/from Taiwan as it leaves during ~ lunch from YVR and is better for NA connections.

CI tends to have better pricing than BR as well.

out of curiosity, where can you look up LFs?

Not pretending to substitute a hunch for professional route analysis, but I would imagine that a couple more South Asian connectors would help loads between YVR and TPE. CI's DEL flight connects pretty well from/to YVR, but there are no non-stops from TPE to BOM, MAA, or BLR (unlike CX from HKG, which seems to be eating CI/BR's lunch on these routes, and could probably do with some competition).

Considering most flights connecting to/from India leave YVR mid-day and arrive around/after midnight, having 1-2 more red-eye options through TPE (with daytime arrivals/departures on the India-end) would have some appeal to a lot of potential customers (incl. my family). The issue would probably finding a suitable daytime slot at these airports (esp. BOM), which are bursting at the seams with domestic flights during "regular business hours".

whatnext
Jan 18, 2018, 1:47 PM
Fully agree with you on Rouge. If you can fly mainline on AC or a different airline while adding an additional 2-3 hours of travel time its a no brainer from a comfort point of view, considering Rouge is only low cost for AC and not anyone else.

I’d argue that if you travel in steerage on an AC 777 it’s worse than the a Rouge 763 now that the mainline aircraft have high density seating. Just bring your own laptop or tablet for entertainment. Is the Dreamliner any better?

Orcair
Jan 18, 2018, 3:27 PM
I’d argue that if you travel in steerage on an AC 777 it’s worse than the a Rouge 763 now that the mainline aircraft have high density seating. Just bring your own laptop or tablet for entertainment. Is the Dreamliner any better?

Depends on what you want! The 777/787s have ~1 inch narrower seats, but 1 inch more legroom and AVOD versus Rouge's 763s. The 777s are also getting wifi more quickly than the 763s and have larger overhead bins. 7-abreast seating is a definite benefit of the 763 though (versus 9/10-abreast).

twoNeurons
Jan 18, 2018, 10:16 PM
What do you mean a press release or an article about what’s happening?

Nothing’s happening. It’s still seasonal rouge.

I read a few pages back that frequencies are being reduced. But I suppose that was talking about how it was rouged ( which is better than it was before... which was... non-existent )

trofirhen
Jan 19, 2018, 12:19 AM
Metro, living, if I may say it this way, sort of "on-off" in Canada and Japan as you do, it is only natural that you seek out the best deals and take interest in Japan-YVR flights.
Here in Paris - although I will admit having fewer means to pay and thus fewer flights home than you do - the best deal it seems - as long as you're ok to change palnes - is Icelandic*1.
There are other combinations, Delta to Seattle incl(?) plus the AC and *A combos, plus the AF nonstop, but I'm into it too; except that I'm half the planet way. (Northern Hemisphere;))

(1.The only possible issue being tat it operates out of Orly Sud terminal: Crowded, grubby, ..."vétuste"... so different from modern, pleasant Orly Ouest, let alone CDG.)