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Canada_Line
Aug 25, 2010, 5:43 AM
Looking carefully, one can see that this plan is dated. First of all, the expansion of Pier C is not included.

Secondly, there seems an assumption that the final piece of the West Chevron - not yet built - is a "fait accompli."

Nevertheless, having a new transborder terminal would be great, but I think the state of delapidated Pier B needs to be addressed first.

A YVR source said there are plans in store for Pier B, but would not release any details as yet. I'd like to know what those plans are. Anybody have an idea?

The completion of the West Chevron will be the next expansion because the current building was built to be expanded easily and the necessary ground inprovements have been done.

I would think the Peir B project would be significant rehabilitation of the current structure as opposed to a re-build.

That it will definitely be built, sooner or later. In other words, it's not still being considered only a possibility. It's just a matter of when, not if. (According to the plan)

Thanks for these. This seemed to be the case but I couldn't find anything in the masterplan and wondered if YVR just chose not to publicize the plans.

the necessary ground inprovements have been done.

How did you know this?

The plan isn't dated. It's just the project was broken up into phases and that the first phase was only building up to Gate D64: just the curved end of the terminal isn't completed. There's no need to expand as of yet, but if there are more airlines coming in, then an expansion will be needed. From what I know, Transat is hoping to continue expanding their Vancouver-European market and introduce Vancouver-Asia (probably to Shanghai or Tokyo). That being said, I can't see how Transat can do that with their current business model. I know China Southern [SkyTeam] is also interested in flying into YVR.

Pier B would be expanded and re-renovated (keeping the bare bones of the structure) similar to what has been done at Pier C.

YVR claims that the recent nine-gate expansion was itself a two phase expansion so the lack of a phase 3 in all documents confused me.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but the current expansion is considered phase I while a curved end would be the proposed phase II?

:previous:
(Great if Pier B gets a complete nose-job!! On that plan, however, Pier C was marked in as it used to be; without the expansion, that's all.)

The island concourse of the transborder terminal that currently exists also isn't on the map. Is it going to be removed or is the map only meant to give an abstract idea, not being a comprehensive portrayal of YVR's future plans?

Johnny Aussie
Aug 27, 2010, 12:54 AM
I was just looking at the OAG scheds and the recently announced HND flight mysteriously disappears on the 27 March, the same day the NRT flight reverts back to a 77W.

Does this mean that the HND flight is only temporary (like only 2 months)? The AC press release alluded that this appeared to be a permanent year-round service?

Chikinlittle
Aug 27, 2010, 2:06 AM
From what I know, Transat is hoping to continue expanding their Vancouver-European market and introduce Vancouver-Asia (probably to Shanghai or Tokyo). That being said, I can't see how Transat can do that with their current business model. I know China Southern [SkyTeam] is also interested in flying into YVR.

Transat has talked about Asia for many years. They have dabbled in that market before, fulfilling inbound charters from various points in Japan to Western Canada. No seats were sold ex-Canada to Japan, however.

Transat does sell most of it's European seats as scheduled product, as well as sells allotments to the tour operators. Scheduled doesn't mean they fly every day. It just means that AIR TRANSAT itself has the capability to sell its own seats. Conversely, a charter flight is one where tour operators hold the risk for filling the seats.

Their business model has always been one to ensure profitability. Even if they were to enter the Asian market from both sides of the Pacific, it could be simply as a charter (as previously done ex-Japan), but more likely would fit a model like they have done with Europe (selling as scheduled flights as well as allotments to tour operators, but having a limited schedule, like one flight a week to whichever destinations they would fly).

Hourglass
Aug 27, 2010, 5:42 AM
@ Canada_Line: See this picture from globalairphotos.com:

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l192/djwong/yvr.jpg

If you look just above the center-left of the photo (between the end of the chevron and the de-icing bays), you can see where the ground has already been preloaded for future construction. You can even get an idea of the dimensions of what the expansion will look like.

twoNeurons
Aug 27, 2010, 3:56 PM
I was just looking at the OAG scheds and the recently announced HND flight mysteriously disappears on the 27 March, the same day the NRT flight reverts back to a 77W.

Does this mean that the HND flight is only temporary (like only 2 months)? The AC press release alluded that this appeared to be a permanent year-round service?

They are likely only selling seats until the 27th of March to start at the moment. They will reevaluate, based on how many tickets they sell. This is quite common. Because Haneda will likely cost more to fly into, there will probably be more business travellers, who tend not to book their flights that far in advance anyway.

That's my guess, at least.

vansky
Aug 27, 2010, 8:07 PM
north east terminal expansion looks massive, wonder how long would this one take, till 2020?

Johnny Aussie
Aug 27, 2010, 9:10 PM
They are likely only selling seats until the 27th of March to start at the moment. They will reevaluate, based on how many tickets they sell. This is quite common. Because Haneda will likely cost more to fly into, there will probably be more business travellers, who tend not to book their flights that far in advance anyway.

That's my guess, at least.

Maybe it was a glitch. Now showing up again.

Showing daily to NRT and daily to HND again. After 27 March NRT is sched to go back to daily 77W, and daily 763 to HND.

Also, just noticed AC is going daily YVR-PVG for the winter scheds (up from 5 / week). PEK still showing 5 / week.

AC is definitely restoring a lot of the lost capacity from YVR-Asia.

Hot Rod
Aug 29, 2010, 10:18 PM
now they need to restore YVR-KIX.

Yume-sama
Aug 29, 2010, 10:20 PM
That won't happen until KIX reduces landing fees, which isn't likely to happen. Many airlines have cut back due to the exorbitant landing fees, which has made it a bit of a white elephant. They are about the same as NRT, and usually it is not the same size of aircraft landing at KIX (767 would have just over half the capacity of 777). YVR - HND is pretty obviously a good replacement for YVR - KIX, I suppose, as HND offers dozens of daily flights to Osaka, and everywhere else in Japan.

Of course the flight times aren't the most optimal for a connection to... anywhere. I'm sure over the years that could change. Maybe.

en2
Aug 30, 2010, 2:09 AM
That won't happen until KIX reduces landing fees, which isn't likely to happen. Many airlines have cut back due to the exorbitant landing fees, which has made it a bit of a white elephant. They are about the same as NRT, and usually it is not the same size of aircraft landing at KIX (767 would have just over half the capacity of 777). YVR - HND is pretty obviously a good replacement for YVR - KIX, I suppose, as HND offers dozens of daily flights to Osaka, and everywhere else in Japan.

Of course the flight times aren't the most optimal for a connection to... anywhere. I'm sure over the years that could change. Maybe.


Low-cost airlines fuel competition
ANA, JAL must share skies with no-frills rivals

By KAZUAKI NAGATA
Staff writer

Japan's tightly regulated skies have been seeing some changes in recent years, with a wave of low-cost carriers from Asia entering the market and domestic budget airlines rising to intensify the competition.

Observers are looking carefully at the impact on the Japanese airline industry, especially what it means for All Nippon Airways Co. and Japan Airlines Corp.

When JAL filed for protection from its creditors in January, transport minister Seiji Maehara said he would take a close look at whether Japan will need two megacarriers in the future, when competition will only grow more intense.

Experts are split on the degree of the low-cost carriers' impact on ANA and JAL, but pretty much all agree the best outcome for consumers would be that both survive and maintain a healthy competition.

"I think the impact is quite big," said Hajime Tozaki, an economics professor at Waseda University and former JAL employee. "Under the ongoing deflation, (JAL and ANA) will lose customers to budget carriers and will be forced to keep carrying out unhealthy cost-cutting."

Compared with Japanese airlines, which spend more on employment and have to pay expensive aviation-related taxes and public dues such as airport fees and fuel taxes, budget Asian carriers are almost free of regulation and have lower employment costs, Tozaki explained.

Low-cost carriers' fares can be 20 to 70 percent less than those of major airlines. The tickets can be offered at reasonable prices because their operational focus is on carrying customers place to place for short to midrange distances.

For instance, budget airlines commonly cut in-flight meals and charge extra for checked baggage. Also, to maximize passenger numbers, seating configurations are often as cramped as possible.

"The cost structure is fundamentally different (from Japanese airlines)," Tozaki said.

But considering that budget airlines don't focus on luxury services, Makoto Murayama, a senior analyst at Nomura Securities, said their primary customers differ from those who fly Japan's big carriers, so the direct impact on ANA and JAL is subtle.

Japan's airline market is notoriously conservative due to tight regulations, including strict safety guidelines and restrictions on foreign investment. The bar was set too high for new firms to enter the market, resulting in limited competition.

The recent entry of no-frills carriers from Asia is partly due to the need of struggling airports to attract more fliers.

For instance, Kansai International Airport, which relies on government subsidies, is especially active in inviting budget airlines. Currently, five such carriers — Air Busan, Jetstar, Jetstar Asia, Jeju Air and Cebu Pacific Air — provide regular flights to and from Kansai.

Known for its expensive landing fees and inconvenient location, Kansai made a bold move last fall to make the landing fee practically nonexistent for carriers opening new international routes through the end of March 2011.

This fiscal year has seen Air Busan and Jetstar Asia start flights to the airport.

Ibaraki Airport, which opened in March, invited in Spring Airlines, a Shanghai-based budget carrier. It started flights late last month.

The Chinese airline recently announced it was offering ¥4,000 one-way tickets between Ibaraki and Shanghai Pudong International Airport.

Meanwhile, Skymark Airlines Inc., a Japanese no-frills carrier that has survived in the tough competition, is looking to grow.

Established in 1996 and having experienced several ups and downs, Skymark is opening 11 new routes this fiscal year, more than double its previous total, to finally rise as a solid third force in the domestic industry.

Airfares were a bit too expensive, and "we thought if we calculate and make efforts, this could be a business, so we've been focusing on forging a low-price model," said Masakazu Arimori, Skymark's chief financial officer.

Arimori explained that the company drafted a sound management plan and has been following that since 2005, which included flying only Boeing 737-800s.

"By unifying the plane under our own specifications and configuration, it facilitates savings, having the same seats and same parts," said Arimori, adding pilots and mechanics can work more efficiently if they deal only with one model.

The unification was completed last September.

Other cost-saving efforts include multitasking by employees, said Arimori, citing as an example that some mechanics are also members of the firm's corporate planning team.

But as ANA plans to establish its own budget airline, and JAL reportedly planning a similar move, the competition among domestic no-frills carriers looks to intensify.

Yet Arimori said Skymark still has an advantage in terms of low operating costs. Skymark's cost to move one seat 1 km has decreased to some ¥8, but the rate for JAL and ANA is ¥13 to ¥15, he said.

The rise of budget airlines in the Japanese market may be good for consumers, but it is also to their benefit if ANA and JAL survive and continue healthy competition, experts said.

"From the consumers' point of view, it is not good that one company dominates the market," said Nomura's Murayama. But at the same time, he said, if thinking just about surviving the competition, it would be more stable to merge as one.

Tozaki of Waseda University said it is still possible that both ANA and JAL can survive. After JAL filed for bankruptcy and closed some routes, fares on those routes increased, he said.

"Competition is important," he said.

While internal reform efforts by the megacarriers are necessary, Tozaki also said the government should ease regulations, such as the cap on foreign investment, to absorb knowhow from outside, so they can be more competitive.


http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nb20100828a1.html

Yume-sama
Aug 30, 2010, 2:23 AM
Well, then it could happen. If they consider Air Canada a budget international carrier.

I think if AC had gotten their 787's when planned, the route may still be ongoing.

Of course, it's also likely that the route wasn't making any money. Or they'd probably still be doing it.

twoNeurons
Aug 30, 2010, 3:19 PM
I was thinking the same thing... that KIX had cut their landing fees dramatically.

The problem with KIX, though, is Itami (Osaka Int'l) was supposed to close. However, it's in a more convenient location for Kobe and Kyoto. So, Itami gets most of the domestic routes. In addition, to the frustration of Osaka, Kobe built their own airport. There's talk of bringing all three airports under one management group, but right now, the focus is on making Haneda a 24-hour hub and then fixing the mess of airports in Osaka.

If I remember correctly, KIX was supposed to be built closer, but if you think NIMBYs HERE are strong... NIMBYs in Japan have power (Check out the farm in the middle of Narita on Google Earth). Saying that, KIX has lots of transportation options (http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2033.html) to get to the airport.

We won't see a problem like this in Vancouver, because YVR and YXX are well placed to serve their population.

Yume-sama
Aug 30, 2010, 5:52 PM
lol well at least the Japanese NIMBY's have realistic family ties that go back hundreds of years to their piece of land. They have stopped any further development at Narita, and stopped a proposed bullet train line from Tokyo - Narita. In a Country as small land-wise as Japan, it does make sense to re-claim land like KIX has done, and HND is doing with their new runway. However, it is prohibitively expensive, as is a lot of Japanese infrastructure, which has Japan in a little bit of a financial pickle.

And you don't know stubborn until you know an old Japanese man / woman. :P They'll purposely live till 112 so you NEVER get your way. :haha:

twoNeurons
Aug 30, 2010, 6:07 PM
And you don't know stubborn until you know an old Japanese man / woman. :P They'll purposely live till 112 so you NEVER get your way. :haha:

Oh man... that's hilarious. Made me laugh! I can imagine it.

Ganbare! Ganbare! Ganbare! 111, one more year... Ganbare! Ganbare! Ganbare!

Johnny Aussie
Aug 31, 2010, 9:42 PM
Goodbye Mexicana and Hello Air Canada.

Effective 6 Nov Sat/Sun service only.
Effective 1 Dec Daily service.

http://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=370

trofirhen
Aug 31, 2010, 10:03 PM
lol well at least the Japanese NIMBY's have realistic family ties that go back hundreds of years to their piece of land. They have stopped any further development at Narita, and stopped a proposed bullet train line from Tokyo - Narita. In a Country as small land-wise as Japan, it does make sense to re-claim land like KIX has done, and HND is doing with their new runway. However, it is prohibitively expensive, as is a lot of Japanese infrastructure, which has Japan in a little bit of a financial pickle.

And you don't know stubborn until you know an old Japanese man / woman. :P They'll purposely live till 112 so you NEVER get your way. :haha:

That old couple was holding things up at Narita the year I lived in Tokyo .... a huge, two-terminal international airport with only ONE runway. It really messed things up, but I have to take off my hat to the couple for their courage not to blink, and to stare down the authorities !! :worship:

trofirhen
Aug 31, 2010, 10:05 PM
north east terminal expansion looks massive, wonder how long would this one take, till 2020?

Probably ... and that's being optimistic. But it will be great when it's built.

wrenegade
Aug 31, 2010, 10:13 PM
Probably ... and that's being optimistic. But it will be great when it's built.

Will YVR require a 3rd runway by the time the NE Terminal expansion comes around? Or the two they currently have plus the aircraft overpass over Grant McConachie Way? Anyone know?

Gordon
Aug 31, 2010, 10:29 PM
The North East Terminal will not be be needed for quite a few years, same for the 3rd runway. currnetly only roughly 2% of total aircraft movements are North Runway departures so there is still significant runway capacity before it is needed. ( dito for termonal capacity)Planning should continue on both projects so they are shovel ready when needed.

The suns website had an article about JAL discussing the significant fleet & route shrinkage. 1 in 8 overseas routes are planned to be cut.

Chikinlittle
Aug 31, 2010, 11:47 PM
Goodbye Mexicana and Hello Air Canada.

Effective 6 Nov Sat/Sun service only.
Effective 1 Dec Daily service.

http://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=370

Ding! I guess I called it right.

trofirhen
Sep 1, 2010, 1:20 AM
The World Routes Forum starts very soon in Vancouver. Earlier in this thread are lists of unused routes (which presumably are available) and under-used routes.

I just hope we don't walk away empty-handed, or nearly-empty-handed.

Yume-sama
Sep 1, 2010, 1:24 AM
The World Routes Forum starts very soon in Vancouver. Earlier in this thread are lists of unused routes (which presumably are available) and under-used routes.

I just hope we don't walk away empty-handed, or nearly-empty-handed.

Was YYZ invited to attend :P?

Vansterdam
Sep 1, 2010, 6:37 AM
Will YVR require a 3rd runway by the time the NE Terminal expansion comes around? Or the two they currently have plus the aircraft overpass over Grant McConachie Way? Anyone know?

YVR already has a 3rd Runway

Overground
Sep 1, 2010, 8:06 AM
^That would be runway 12/30:)


As for the above questions. If I remember from the Master Plan it says 2014 for the North-South Taxiway.

Let me take a look at it....Phase 1 for the proposed North East Terminal is 2015. Phase 2 is 2023. And medium-growth forecasts indicate a new runway by 2025.

trofirhen
Sep 1, 2010, 9:33 AM
Was YYZ invited to attend :P?

:yuck: Yikes, I hope not! If it was, we WILL end up with nothing !!:haha:

eduardo88
Sep 1, 2010, 3:03 PM
YVR already has a 3rd Runway

Aren't there 4?

08L/26R - 3,029m
08R/26L - 3,505m
12/30 - 2,225m
26A - 1,066m...actually part of taxiway A, available for VMC day departures only, when runway 26L is active. Apparently, that means smaller aircraft are allowed to take off straight from the taxiway instead of waiting in line for the big runway.

Gordon
Sep 1, 2010, 5:08 PM
Runway 12/30 is the crosswind runway and is rarely used , comercially only 08L\26L & 08R\26R are the only ruways used

whatnext
Sep 1, 2010, 5:23 PM
Runway 12/30 is the crosswind runway and is rarely used , comercially only 08L\26L & 08R\26R are the only ruways used

Isn't 12/30 is used fairly frequently by props (Jazz, Pacific Coastal, Hawkair etc)?

Yume-sama
Sep 1, 2010, 5:25 PM
Are there any statistics on the current capacity of the two YVR runways? How many movements can they handle per year?

Is an additional runway an "urgent" need like it is in YYC?

An additional runway can provide a ton of new capacity. Look at Haneda, their new runway will take their capacity from 285,000 to 407,000.

Overground
Sep 1, 2010, 5:33 PM
In 2009 there was 238k runway movements at YVR. This is the lowest amount since before 1992. The South Runway is used more though as the North is primarily used for arrivals. They say with adding more departures on the North, YVR could increase capacity by 15%. Of course, building the North-South Taxiway would allow for better efficiency.

I have the info for each runway on a pdf somewhere I think....have to find it.

Yume-sama
Sep 1, 2010, 5:34 PM
278,000 would be quite remarkable, when you consider the population difference between Tokyo (285,000 movements for the population of Canada :P) and Vancouver.

Though, I suppose almost all of those movements at HND are larger planes such as 777 or 747, even domestically.

Van23H
Sep 1, 2010, 7:15 PM
Air Canada announced direct flight to MEXICO CITY! They are probably just taking Mexicana's slot

Yume-sama
Sep 1, 2010, 7:49 PM
I think if they were smart they would conveniently allow the flight times to connect to Tokyo, as the JAL service from MEX - YVR - NRT is gone.

I'm sure they thought of that, especially with direct service to HND starting up~

Mexicans need to get to Japan, too :P

twoNeurons
Sep 1, 2010, 7:59 PM
278,000 would be quite remarkable, when you consider the population difference between Tokyo (285,000 movements for the population of Canada :P) and Vancouver.

Though, I suppose almost all of those movements at HND are larger planes such as 777 or 747, even domestically.
I'm gonna miss JAL's 747s... but alas, I digress.

If you include Narita, there's 550,000 combined. Add the fact that the Shinkansen Bullet Train takes away a considerable number of flights for domestic travel...

That being said, it is still a pretty good number for Vancouver. I suppose because of distances here, we have to fly a lot in Canada.

Hot Rod
Sep 2, 2010, 4:47 AM
I'm gonna miss JAL's 747s... but alas, I digress.

If you include Narita, there's 550,000 combined. Add the fact that the Shinkansen Bullet Train takes away a considerable number of flights for domestic travel...

That being said, it is still a pretty good number for Vancouver. I suppose because of distances here, we have to fly a lot in Canada.

is JAL pulling out of YVR? :hell:

Yume-sama
Sep 2, 2010, 4:51 AM
is JAL pulling out of YVR? :hell:

:P No, but they're retiring all of their 747's, to be replaced by 777's and 787's.

They will be pulled out of service one by one starting in February :(

Even their cargo 747's are retiring, so 45 747's will be hitting the scrapyard soon.

teriyaki
Sep 2, 2010, 6:18 AM
:P No, but they're retiring all of their 747's, to be replaced by 777's and 787's.

They will be pulled out of service one by one starting in February :(

Even their cargo 747's are retiring, so 45 747's will be hitting the scrapyard soon.

For the Vancouver route, this will be the aforementioned change in aircraft for JAL.

Current Aircraft : Boeing 747-400
Substitute Aircraft : 777-200ER

Quite the changes coming for JAL, but other than the Vancouver aircraft change, most of it is off-topic for this discussion. More of the details can be seen here http://press.jal.co.jp/en/release/201004/001531.html

I will also be one that will miss the JAL Big bird. I am used to seeing this plane fly overhead everyday since I've been a child. However, from a travellers perspective, the 777 on JAL is newer and more comfortable.

Yume-sama
Sep 2, 2010, 5:22 PM
For the Vancouver route, this will be the aforementioned change in aircraft for JAL.

Current Aircraft : Boeing 747-400
Substitute Aircraft : 777-200ER

Quite the changes coming for JAL, but other than the Vancouver aircraft change, most of it is off-topic for this discussion. More of the details can be seen here http://press.jal.co.jp/en/release/201004/001531.html

I will also be one that will miss the JAL Big bird. I am used to seeing this plane fly overhead everyday since I've been a child. However, from a travellers perspective, the 777 on JAL is newer and more comfortable.

It is a pretty big cut in service, I suppose. The route capacity will go from 447 seats (55 Executive (not first class) 392 economy) to 302 seats (63 executive (not first class) 239 economy). Though, I would venture to say it was never really actually full, especially after they stopped the MEX - YVR - NRT routing, and only went YVR - NRT. Still no first class seating for Canada, like their 777-300's that fly out of SFO and JFK with suites.

So be on the lookout, September 30th is our last JAL 747! I happen to be flying home from NRT that day on AC, so perhaps I'll catch a glimpse :P

twoNeurons
Sep 2, 2010, 7:39 PM
I will also be one that will miss the JAL Big bird. I am used to seeing this plane fly overhead everyday since I've been a child. However, from a travellers perspective, the 777 on JAL is newer and more comfortable.

I liked that the upper deck (when I flew) was all economy... so it felt like a much smaller plane.

Johnny Aussie
Sep 3, 2010, 4:51 AM
It is a pretty big cut in service, I suppose. The route capacity will go from 447 seats (55 Executive (not first class) 392 economy) to 302 seats (63 executive (not first class) 239 economy). Though, I would venture to say it was never really actually full, especially after they stopped the MEX - YVR - NRT routing, and only went YVR - NRT. Still no first class seating for Canada, like their 777-300's that fly out of SFO and JFK with suites.

So be on the lookout, September 30th is our last JAL 747! I happen to be flying home from NRT that day on AC, so perhaps I'll catch a glimpse :P

Don't expect to see much First Class on a lot of routes anymore!

Funny that, I will also be flying in and out of YVR on 30 Sept. I may have a crack at seeing the last JAL 744 as well as I have a 3 hour layover.

Rusty Gull
Sep 3, 2010, 5:14 AM
Interesting article from today's Globe. I wonder if this signals a return of non-stop service between YVR and KIX?

Former airline rivals team up to attract Japanese visitors

New tour operator hopes to revive a slumping tourism market

Brent Jang Transportation Reporter
From Friday's Globe and Mail

Published on Thursday, Sep. 02, 2010 11:55PM EDT
Last updated on Thursday, Sep. 02, 2010 11:56PM EDT

They once waged fierce battles for Canada’s skies, but now they’re teaming up to take on Japan.

WestJet Airlines Ltd. co-founder Mark Hill and a former arch-rival, retired Air Canada executive Robert Peterson, believe they have a formula that can help lure Japanese tourists back to Canada after years of declining visits.

The two former airline executives have homes within one kilometre of each other on Vancouver Island, but didn’t know they were neighbours until former Bay Street analyst Jacques Kavafian quietly approached them in May to launch a new tour operator, Canadian Pacific Travel Inc., aimed at the Japanese market.

Mr. Hill and Mr. Peterson say they don’t hold any grudges stemming from a corporate spying scandal, which ended in WestJet apologizing to Air Canada four years ago to resolve an espionage lawsuit.

The bitter feud seems like a distant memory, insist the aviation veterans, who have now turned their attention to nurturing CP Travel. “Business is business,” said Mr. Peterson, who retired in 2006 and moved from Montreal to Victoria.

Mr. Peterson, 59, jumped at the chance to work on the Japanese venture and Mr. Hill, 48, also eagerly climbed aboard. “What’s funny is once we realized we had places close by, we started to run into each other at local establishments,” Mr. Hill said.

CP Travel will bundle Canadian vacation packages for tourists flying from Osaka, Nagoya and Tokyo. Service is slated to begin next June from those three Japanese cities, and Sapporo and Fukuoka could be added in 2013.

Mr. Peterson, who served as Air Canada’s chief financial officer from 1993 to 2005, is CP Travel’s CFO, and Mr. Hill assumes the role of chief operating officer. Mr. Kavafian, 50, is CP Travel’s president and chief executive officer. The long-time analyst resigned last October after more than five years at Research Capital Corp.

Mr. Kavafian said he believes that with cheaper tour packages and the introduction of non-stop service from places such as Osaka and Nagoya, the slumping market for Japanese tourists will be ripe for a rebound. Longer term, he hopes to attract visitors from South Korea and China, which granted “approved destination status” to Canada in late 2009, clearing the way for more Chinese tourists.

Japanese visitors on CP Travel’s itinerary will arrive in Vancouver and Calgary, while connecting flights will be arranged for other parts of Canada, depending on the tour package for planes, hotels and sightseeing, Mr. Kavafian said.

“We will be collaborating with other tourism players,” said Mr. Kavafian, who has made 15 trips to Japan to conduct market research. Privately owned CP Travel has reached deals to acquire Vancouver-based Maple Fun Tours and Tokyo-based Ryoko Club, which have both been operating for more than 25 years in the tourism sector.

As Japan’s economy weakened and its residents diverted their holiday spending to other destinations such as China, inbound tourism from Japan to Canada gradually declined from a peak of more than 729,000 travellers in 1996 to fewer than 206,000 people last year, including overnight and day trips, according to Statistics Canada.

“The recession has left in its wake a new breed of Japanese consumer, one that is more cautious about spending money,” the Canadian Tourism Commission said a recent report on Japan.

CP Travel sees opportunities to help reverse the downward tourism trend and take advantage of a strengthening yen, which makes holiday packages to Canada cheaper for Japanese consumers. In the first half of this year, there were 96,475 overnight visitors from Japan to Canada, up 29 per cent from the same period last year, Statscan said.

CP Travel hopes to carry 35,000 customers during seasonal service next year, and has an ambitious goal to transport 155,000 people in 2013. Popular sights are expected to include Vancouver, Banff, Niagara Falls and Montreal.

“There will be a lot of skeptics, but there were skeptics with WestJet, too,” Mr. Hill said. Calgary-based WestJet began in 1996 with three planes and has grown into the country’s second-largest carrier, boasting a fleet of 90 aircraft.

Mr. Hill – who co-founded WestJet with Clive Beddoe, Tim Morgan and Donald Bell – resigned as the airline’s vice-president of strategic planning in 2004, after Air Canada filed an espionage lawsuit against WestJet.

Montreal-based Air Canada, which accused Mr. Hill of staging an electronic spying campaign, resolved the dispute in 2006. WestJet agreed to pay a $15.5-million out-of-court settlement and apologized for spying on Air Canada's password-protected employee website for booking flights.

One of CP Travel’s priorities will be securing seats on aircraft, a practice known as “lift” in industry jargon. Possible providers range from small outfits such as Calgary-based Enerjet, headed by Mr. Morgan, to scheduled carriers like Air Canada, which will start serving Tokyo’s Haneda Airport in January, complementing its flights at Narita International Airport.

No decision has been made yet on airline partners, but the aircraft type being eyed is a 230-seat Boeing 767. Access to two planes will be needed for the 2011 launch, with plans to expand to eight jets in 2013.

twoNeurons
Sep 3, 2010, 4:05 PM
Interesting. It's true that there will be a lot of 767s on the market for cheap in the next few years as most airlines are replacing them with 787s. And tours are probably the best use of them... as they won't be able to compete and be profitable unless they're full, being less efficient than the new generation planes.

Could we start to see charter flights to Japan?

Did WestJet start with old 737s?

Yume-sama
Sep 3, 2010, 4:18 PM
Did WestJet start with old 737s?

Yep, some of WestJet's Boeing 737-200's were 20 years old. They are all retired now, and they have one of the youngest fleets out there.

And they have 45 more 737-700's and 800's on order.

One is still flying for Aerogal in Ecuador, nearly 30 years old now :P

twoNeurons
Sep 3, 2010, 4:58 PM
I wonder if WestJet will ever expand into different plane types. Surely, the 737 can't be the best plane for EVERY purpose...

Yume-sama
Sep 3, 2010, 5:57 PM
That all depends on whether or not they eventually want to try and compete on the International market. The 737 is the best plane for what they do now~

It seems rather unlikely they'll try to branch out to Europe, Asia, etc., but you'd think they would probably go for older 767's and eventually 787's if they ever did.

I think what we'll see is them having more agreements with airlines, like they do with Air France, Cathay Pacific, China Airlines, and KLM.

It would be interesting to see if they ever start "small" and order some 737-900ER's that could provide them some decent range South.

Not to mention, perhaps, a full load to Hawaii without them having to weight balance it to the extreme to make sure it even gets there... :haha:

red-paladin
Sep 3, 2010, 7:36 PM
They've said that the benefit of having only one type of plane makes all the maintenance, etc much cheaper. So unless they wanted to get like 30 new planes of a second type, they would probably stay with this system until it was actually going to be cheaper to have more models than just one.

zivan56
Sep 3, 2010, 8:03 PM
Yep, some of WestJet's Boeing 737-200's were 20 years old. They are all retired now, and they have one of the youngest fleets out there.

And they have 45 more 737-700's and 800's on order.

One is still flying for Aerogal in Ecuador, nearly 30 years old now :P

737-200s are prized aircraft in some regions in the world, as they are one of the few planes (and I believe fastest commercial aircrafts) with gravel kits available. Nothing wrong with using old aircraft as long as they are properly maintained. However, costs begin to rise very quickly on such old aircraft.

Vanzunator
Sep 11, 2010, 4:14 AM
for summer 2011 Frankfurt – Vancouver Daily will be 747-400 (Summer 2010 was: A340-600)

http://airlineroute.net/2010/09/09/lh-fra-s11longhaul/

Yume-sama
Sep 11, 2010, 4:24 AM
:D The more 747's the better. We'll be running a bit lower on them by then~

Chikinlittle
Sep 11, 2010, 5:35 AM
for summer 2011 Frankfurt – Vancouver Daily will be 747-400 (Summer 2010 was: A340-600)

http://airlineroute.net/2010/09/09/lh-fra-s11longhaul/

As long as it's the 747-400. Several years back, they temporarily increased capacity to one of their older 747s (not sure if it was a 300 series or 200, but she was old and ugly inside lol) before transitioning to the 340-600.

Johnny Aussie
Sep 15, 2010, 3:41 AM
Some snipits from a CBC report

Chief commercial officer Peter Spring said Edelweiss started new routes to Canada this past summer, offering flights from Zurich to Calgary and Vancouver.

Spring said those new flights were a success and the airline is now setting its sights north.

We have decided to enhance our offer to Canada and to Alaska. That means we are flying twice a week to Vancouver and Calgary and once per week to Whitehorse and Anchorage from May 2011 onwards," Spring told CBC News on Friday.

Rest of article here:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/north/story...r-flights.html

Yume-sama
Sep 18, 2010, 1:10 AM
Some YVR pics from a couple of days ago :P

The Air Canada Lounge in International Terminal, much nicer than I expected~ Way nicer than at YYC and YYZ.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4129/4997283430_863ce8ac51_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/syume/4997283430/in/photostream/

My 777-300ER
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4129/4997305462_7edb5b1724_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/syume/4997305462/in/photostream/

Other peoples 767's
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4084/4997342842_1003078e77_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/syume/4997342842/in/photostream/

I talked with a few people and they were so impressed with the International terminal. It is beautiful.

A lot of people seemed to gravitate towards the aquarium near the food court, too.

Johnny Aussie
Sep 18, 2010, 7:50 PM
^I checked out your on-board pics. Hard to tell but were you in the first or second cabin? The pods actually look pretty narrow (especially compared to SQ's flying sofas!) Did you find them narrow? And how good are they to sleep on? I will be in 3K in a couple of weeks on the 77L from SYD, unlike your flight though, just checked the seat map for my flight and it is definitely not as empty as your flight.

Gordon
Sep 20, 2010, 5:56 PM
The Provincial Government has announced that they will no longer charge the provincial fuel tax on Transborder & International flights leaving the province,

YVR is startng a program allowng existing carriers can increase frequencies and not pay more Landing or Terminal Fees.

twoNeurons
Sep 20, 2010, 6:00 PM
YVR is starting a program allowing existing carriers can increase frequencies and not pay more Landing or Terminal Fees.

Whoa, that's a pretty innovative way to attract flights. Where did you find this out? Article?

Gordon
Sep 20, 2010, 6:08 PM
There are press releases on both West Jet's & Air Canada's websites mentioning both topics.

Landing & Terminal fees will be frozen at 2010 levels for 5 years.

trofirhen
Sep 20, 2010, 7:07 PM
This is the link to the front page of Routesonline, a magazine about, what else, air routes and route development, and of course in this case, the upcoming world routes forum this week in Vancouver. This should be an interesting forum, and I hope YVR gets routes activated in at least two or three places. (need I say 'including CDG?") :P
Worth watching for the outcome, I still think.
Notice that Gord Campell is eliminating the 2% fuel tax in BC?
He has his eyes set on the Asian Hub role for YVR. Great.
(I just hope they manage one or two in Europe. That'd be nice)

http://www.routesonline.com/
and the statement here...
http://www.routesonline.com/news/36/the-hub/96467/monday-world-routes-special-canadian-premier-to-slash-jet-fuel-tax/

usog
Sep 20, 2010, 7:16 PM
Hopefully the 'fuel surcharge' will go down now, it's ridiculous as it is every time I fly to Asia. Oh and Air Canada reinstating the daily flights to Beijing/Shanghai this winter, a good sign I guess.

Edit: http://www.news1130.com/news/local/article/104245--b-c-trying-to-make-flying-international-cheaper
"President of YVR Larry Berg explains that part of the idea is to get Lower Mainland flyers to rely less on Bellingham's airport to the south. "
Finally!

Hourglass
Sep 20, 2010, 10:31 PM
Whoa, that's a pretty innovative way to attract flights. Where did you find this out? Article?

Here's the article from the Vancouver Sun:

YVR expects boost with incentive program, tax break on international flights

By Brian Morton, Vancouver Sun September 20, 2010 1:59 PM Comments (2)

Vancouver International Airport (YVR) expects a boost in international flights if the provincial government's move to eliminate the fuel tax succeeds.

Vancouver International Airport (YVR) expects a boost in international flights if the provincial government's move to eliminate the fuel tax succeeds.
Photograph by: Les Bazso, PNG

Vancouver International Airport's position as Canada's Pacific Gateway is expected to get a big boost with two new announcements geared to attracting more international carriers and flights.

On Monday, YVR said at the World Routes 2010 forum in Vancouver that it will begin offering a five-year incentive program designed to increase routes and capacity by freezing landing and terminal fees at 2010 levels.

That followed an announcement by Premier Gordon Campbell that the provincial government would introduce legislation to eliminate the aviation fuel tax on international commercial flights by April 1, 2012, a move that's expected to cut costs collectively for the airlines by $20 million a year.

On average an airline would save $3,900 for a 747-400 flying from YVR to Hong Kong. It would save the same aircraft $760 flying from YVR to JFK in New York.

“It's expected that the [incentive program] will add the equivalent of eight to 10 new international daily flights, or approximately 1.1 million additional airline seats, over the next five years,” Vancouver Airport Authority president and CEO Larry Berg said while making the announcement.

Berg, who also commended Campbell's announcement, said that every new international long-haul flight into YVR generates between $5 and $8 million in wages annually and contributes between $8 and $15 million to B.C.'s GDP.

“Currently, one in 10 [flights] travelling to Asia is using YVR,” he said. “Certainly we can do better.

“We will freeze our landing and terminal fees to carriers at 2010 levels. Therefore, they can add capacity and add new flights without new charges.

“It's a very good economic generator for both the province and the region.”

Berg also expressed the hope that the new incentives will entice low-cost carriers currently using Bellingham International Airport to YVR.

Tourism Vancouver chair James Terry, who was also at the Routes Forum, said that he believes both announcements bode well for tourism in the city.

“It's wonderful news. Any incentives to help airlines use YVR as a destination has to be a benefit to Vancouver.”

Meanwhile, Air Canada said Monday that it is boosting international flights from Vancouver to Asia beginning this coming winter season, and that it welcomes the two announcements.

"Air Canada is significantly increasing international flights from Vancouver, our second largest hub, said Ben Smith, executive vice-president and chief commercial officer.

“We will be flying daily non-stop to Shanghai, Beijing and Hong Kong, representing an increase in capacity of 17 per cent compared to last winter.

"We applaud the B.C. government for their action towards eliminating the provincial aviation fuel tax on international flights. In addition, we thank [YVR] for their initiative to hold in line landing and terminal fees for a five-year period as we introduce these new services."

Campbell said the fuel-tax elimination would build on the momentum of the 2010 Olympics by helping YVR increase international flights and add passenger capacity.

“This change would help YVR and B.C. markets as the preferred gateway to North America and the world, bringing tourists and added economic activity to our province from around the globe,” Campbell said in a statement.

Campbell noted that if YVR expanded by an additional 10 flights, “more than $64 million annually would be added to the B.C. economy.”

Approximately 3,000 delegates representing 700 airports and 200 airlines are gathering for the two-day World Routes 2010 at the Vancouver Convention to network and do business.

While the development of new routes and highlighting new products and services are at the top of the forum's agenda, it is also seen as an opportunity to showcase B.C. and solicit new investment.

YVR, Canada's second busiest airport, currently serves 44 Canadian communities and offers connections to 24 U.S. and 27 other international destinations.

More than 16 million travellers used the airport in 2009.

Yume-sama
Sep 20, 2010, 11:07 PM
^I checked out your on-board pics. Hard to tell but were you in the first or second cabin? The pods actually look pretty narrow (especially compared to SQ's flying sofas!) Did you find them narrow? And how good are they to sleep on? I will be in 3K in a couple of weeks on the 77L from SYD, unlike your flight though, just checked the seat map for my flight and it is definitely not as empty as your flight.

They are surely not as comfortable as JAL's SkySuite, SQ's Cabins, and Emirates little condos in the air :P

However, the picture does make them seem deceptively narrow. They are actually quite roomy. I was sitting in the 5th row, in the 1st cabin.

mezzanine
Sep 23, 2010, 7:22 AM
Following the Route International conference - it seems to be drawing a lot of attention to vancouver. I think it may produce new routes in the future.

This was an interesting article spurred by the conference. US hubbing to japan has less incentive to go thru vancouver because of newer agreements, but there is a lot of restrictions still on US-china flights and advantage for US-YVR-china routing. With planes like the 787, YVR seems to have a lot of potential to fly to secondary cities in china like chonqing and chengdu with hubbing advantage. the 787 may also help establish YVR-Delhi.


DATE:15/09/10
SOURCE:Airline BusinessROUTES 2010: Vancouver strives to become an international hub
By David Knibb


Routes host city Vancouver is already Canada's main Pacific gateway, but can it step up its share of traffic from the larger US-Asian market?

Thanks to geography, Vancouver will always be Canada's gateway to the Pacific. But its role as a hub between the USA and Asia is a more elusive goal that Vancouver International airport is still striving to earn.

Two things are likely to boost Vancouver's gateway status. The first is China, the second is better interline deals. As Canada's third largest city and the only one on the Pacific coast, Vancouver has always had a large Asian population. That population grew even more when many Hong Kong residents took out Canadian citizenship before Hong Kong's handover to China.

John Korenic, Vancouver's director of aviation marketing, says his airport is already the fourth-largest origin-and-destination point between North America and Asia, and that includes such behemoths as Los Angeles.

Late last year China granted Canada approved destination status. The advance people for Chinese tour companies and travel agencies are already visiting Vancouver as a prelude to marketing campaigns.

With Air China and China Eastern already serving Vancouver, the relative trickle of Chinese arrivals could grow into a flood, and the first Canadian city most of them will visit is Vancouver.

Vancouver's gateway status will also gain a boost as WestJet, Air Canada's local rival, finally enters the interline business. Nine Asia-Pacific carriers serve Vancouver, and those not in the Star Alliance may prefer a Canadian interline partner other than Air Canada. Gregg Saretsky, WestJet chief executive, is making this a high priority. Since ironing out wrinkles in WestJet's computer switchover, the airline has inked interline deals with Cathay Pacific and Taiwan's China Airlines, and is now talking to China Eastern. Better interlines will encourage Asian carriers to focus on Vancouver as their Canadian gateway rather than open new routes to such interior cities as Calgary and Toronto.

Vancouver's bigger challenge is not so much how to grow its share of Pacific gateway traffic, but how to exploit its location to become a bigger hub between its giant neighbour to the south and its giant neighbours in Asia. As Calin Rovinescu, Air Canada's chief executive, points out, Vancouver's big issue is not Canada-Asia. "In North America the far, far larger market is between the US and Asia, where our share is only 1%. By winning only a couple of extra percentage points of market share on these routes we could connect a million more passengers through Vancouver," he says.

His idea is not new. In the late 1990s American Airlines launched "The Vancouver Connection", feeding US passengers through Vancouver to its codeshare partner Canadian Airlines for onward flights to Asia. Bob Crandell, who was then American Airlines' president, touted this connection because it bypassed restrictions in the US-Japan bilateral, and "flying by way of Vancouver is a significantly faster route to Asia than going by way of either Los Angeles or San Francisco".

Changing Times

But times have changed. Canadian Airlines is gone. US open skies accords with Taiwan (1997), South Korea (1998) and Japan (2009) have freed more US flights to Asia, and long-range aircraft allows American to fly daily nonstops now to Tokyo Narita from Los Angeles, Chicago, and New York and double daily from Dallas-Fort Worth. In May the US DoT also awarded American a New York-Tokyo/Haneda route. American no longer needs a Vancouver hub as much. Delta and United also overfly Vancouver two dozen times a day on US flights to and from Asia.

So what can Vancouver do to be a bigger hub for US-Asian traffic? First, it has made it easy on passengers. US travellers connecting in Vancouver to overseas flights check their bags through and skip Canadian customs. They go through a Canadian immigration check set up separately for transit passengers, and do not have to clear security a second time. Returning from Asia, they clear Canadian and US immigration and US customs in the Vancouver terminal so that they re-enter the US as domestic passengers.

Second, the Canada-US Open Skies bilateral makes Vancouver connections easy. "Because of our US Open Skies agreement with Canada we can already feed our connecting American Airlines' passengers into and out of JAL's flight to Japan on a codeshare basis," says the US carrier.

As Korenic points out, the Canada-US bilateral also allows US carriers to operate fifth freedoms through Vancouver to Asia if they have permission from their Asian destination. So far, no US carriers exercise these rights.

Thirdly, because of Canada's bilaterals with Asia, flights from Vancouver offer additional access to Asian markets - notably China and Hong Kong - where capacity limits still constrict US carriers. United, for example, has 11 daily flights into Vancouver from US cities, and can transfer US passengers to Star Alliance partner Air Canada, which flies daily from Vancouver to Beijing, Shanghai/Pudong and Hong Kong. American and Delta have similar options in Vancouver with their Asian alliance partners.

For commercial reasons, no carrier will disclose how much connecting traffic it already feeds through Vancouver. But oneworld observes that Vancouver "is well served by oneworld carriers and you can assume that there are a fair number of passengers connecting there!"

Joint Venture

Vancouver's potential is important enough for American and Japan Airlines, whose routes touch in Vancouver, to look at extending their US-Japan joint venture to embrace Canada. "We are in the process," says American, "of evaluating what both we and JAL might need to do on the Canadian ATI [anti-trust immunity] front."


Vancouver's Challenge
John Korenic, Vancouver's director of aviation marketing, faces a challenge. He knows that Vancouver could be a bigger hub for connecting US traffic through to Asia, but he has a hard time attracting it. "The US is a major potential market for us," Korenic says, but a lot of US airlines "overfly the West Coast en route to and from Asia on their own".

What can he do about it? "Mainly what we do is identify which carriers potentially would benefit" from routeing flights through Vancouver. Then he tries to point out the advantages of doing it. These include streamlined transfers for connecting passengers, a chance to combine US and Canadian traffic, and the potential this creates for routes between more secondary North American and Asian cities.

"The US now has more liberal accords in Asia than we do," Korenic laments. "Canada's only Asian open skies agreement is with Korea." In earlier times, when US-Asian bilaterals were tighter, US airlines found codesharing through Vancouver more attractive. Now, he admits, it is harder.

But Korenic is optimistic about Vancouver's prospects as longer-range jets come on line. They will be able to fly nonstop from Vancouver to South-East Asia and even India. "Delhi especially," he says "is a huge market for us."

Korenic's other challenge is secondary airports. Typical of otherlarge urban areas, low-cost carriers have found alternate ways to serve the Vancouver region. WestJet has launched flights into Abbotsford, 40 miles (65km) east of Vancouver, and into Comox, 100 miles across the sound on Vancouver Island. More recently, Alaska Airlines announced new flights to Hawaii from Bellingham, Washington, only 20 miles south of the US border. Alaska is trying to entice Vancouverites to drive down and use it.

No one knows how much traffic these rival airports divert instead of stimulate, but none of them offer international flights. Korenic also likes to point out that secondary airports elsewhere often draw passengers because they are closer to a city's centre. But Vancouver's rivals are in the outer suburbs, on an island, or even in another country. "Vancouver International", Korenic proudly declares, "is Vancouver's downtown airport."

Vancouver's biggest potential as a US-Asia hub depends who proves to be most right in the long-running debate between Airbus and Boeing over future route developments. Airbus foresees more hub-to-hub traffic; hence its high-capacity A380. Boeing argues that passengers prefer point-to-point, so it has bet instead on the hub-busting, long-range, lower-capacity 787 Dreamliner.

In three years Air Canada will start flying the first of 37 Dreamliners. This will be the big test for Vancouver. The 787's range is critical to any hub-bypass strategy between Canada and Asia as the Pacific is wider than the Atlantic. Tokyo, for example, is 1,300 miles (2,100km) further from Vancouver than London from New York.

Air Canada's Calin Rovinescu calls the 787 a "game changer" because it "will allow us to fly to secondary Asian cities that we cannot currently serve because not enough people fly there to justify larger aircraft".

In short, new longer-range, lower-capacity jets could fragment the North Pacific just as route proliferation fragmented the North Atlantic. With these new aircraft, Air Canada and Star partner United Airlines could combine a lot more Canadian and US traffic at Vancouver. Air Canada could operate sixth freedoms on its own US-Vancouver-Asia routings.

Other US carriers could codeshare from Vancouver with Asian partners, or deploy transpacific fifth freedoms from Vancouver with their own 787s. In all of these cases, loads combining Canadian and US traffic could be big enough in smaller long-range jets to support many more secondary routes. This would finally launch Vancouver as a major hub between North America and the Orient.


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/09/15/347337/routes-2010-vancouver-strives-to-become-an-international-hub.html

mezzanine
Sep 23, 2010, 7:24 AM
Sorry, dbl post.

Gordon
Sep 23, 2010, 6:24 PM
I wonder if air Canada is still looking at the Guangzhou route?

The major West coast Asian hubs are congested especially SFO at certain times of the day depending on winds shorthaul Domestic & Transborder traffic is held at it's origin for an hour or more at times.
More asian routes and more U.S. desinations could help a great deal towards yvr becomming a larger Asia North America hub.

Being an uncongested airport is also a positive for YVR.

twoNeurons
Sep 23, 2010, 8:10 PM
So, basically it looks like one strategy they're going to use is to get passengers from secondary cities around the US And Canada, tie them together in Vancouver, and shuttle them to secondary cities in Asia.

Sounds almost like a transit system. Sounds like it's a bit of a shot in the dark as well.

They're counting on those secondary cities not being big enough to warrant direct flights. In fairness, I think even larger cities have immigrant sub-populations that essentially make it a "secondary city."

In other words, they'd be going after the recreational and family trips. Not a bad idea, considering Vancouver isn't exactly a "hub" of business activity.

You may not be able to connect the Indian community of Portland with Delhi, but combine with South Surrey's community, and the communities in Denver and the mid-west and you may have a viable idea.

However, I think for this to happen, YVR will have to beef up its connections to the US first, instead of just relying on San Francisco/LA etc.

Otherwise, why wouldn't they do the same thing in Seattle?

I can't help but think though, that as jet range increases, a better strategy would be to market Vancouver itself as a destination... but then again, maybe this is part of the plan to do just that.

Gordon
Sep 23, 2010, 8:52 PM
These 2nd tier cities(in China especailly) are quite large cties 5million plus populations.

We should go after more of these secondary destiations ie Guangzhou.

We need more flights to other large U.S. destinations as well ie Miami?

I don't know if Sea tac has the terminal facilities to handle large numbers of international passengers.

whatnext
Sep 23, 2010, 11:41 PM
I had an opportunity to check out the World Route Forum earlier this week, but I forgot my camera! The Gatwick booth was pretty impressive.

deasine
Sep 24, 2010, 12:42 AM
I wonder if air Canada is still looking at the Guangzhou route?

The major West coast Asian hubs are congested especially SFO at certain times of the day depending on winds shorthaul Domestic & Transborder traffic is held at it's origin for an hour or more at times.
More asian routes and more U.S. desinations could help a great deal towards yvr becomming a larger Asia North America hub.

Being an uncongested airport is also a positive for YVR.

I'm not sure if Air Canada is and will, but I know China Southern is definitely looking to implement a direct Guangzhou CAN-YVR route.

Currently, there aren't many SkyTeam Alliance airlines serving YVR. It will definitely be beneficial for YVR to expand more airlines, making it a larger SkyTeam transit hub. China Airlines, currently serving YVR-TPE flight, has announced they will join SkyTeam earlier this month.

Yume-sama
Sep 24, 2010, 12:47 AM
It would be nice to see more flights from the superhero alliance. SKYTEAM!

Alitalia, KLM, etc.

Guangzhou seems like one of the next "big" cities in China.

MalcolmTucker
Sep 24, 2010, 1:59 AM
Unless WestJet joins SkyTeam, beyond the YVR based demand, why would someone feed americans into YVR to transfer? Operating costs through any of the US hubs would be lower (not as much now that the provincial fuel tax is off, but still, not much lower).

I forget, does YVR offer transfers without clearing Canadian customs these days?

deasine
Sep 24, 2010, 3:51 AM
I forget, does YVR offer transfers without clearing Canadian customs these days?

There's a special Canadian Border Services clearance for international connections.

Johnny Aussie
Sep 24, 2010, 11:23 PM
^^^^I have read many times about CZ proposing service to Canada. In fact I think that was expected to have started this year. However, they keep holding off. CZ just annouced a very significant increase in service to Australia (double daily to SYD and daily to MEL). So assuming a lot of the metal that could/would have been used to YVR or YYZ is being used for the Australia expansion. I won't be surprised if they do start flying next year, but looks like this year is not happening. Canada recently received ADS from China. That will certainly help!

Hot Rod
Sep 25, 2010, 8:54 AM
Australia is a very big market for China, much larger than Canada actually.

And China Southern is China's largest airline and they have the biggest route structure in the Southern Pacific - hence the main focus; whereas China Eastern does Shanghai and Air China does Beijing to the North American Gateways (Vancouver).

I'm sure this adds to China Southern's waiting things out. Clearly there is a huge market in Vancouver and Canada, very surprising that there aren't already dailies given the huge Cantonese population and business community, but connections using Air China and China Eastern, and Cathay Pacific, Korean apparently filfill the current needs.

This should all change once agreements are set and Vancouver becomes the staging point for the other alliances (oneworld, skyteam). I think we could very well see CAN from China Southern and once 787's come online Air China and/or AC might bring in Chongqing and/or Chengdu - with origination likely being Singapore and Bangkok (and perhaps even India). With this idea, Vancouver, Chongqing, and Chengdu would all benefit from the "short" international hops that bypass Beijing, Tokyo, and Shanghai; giving service to the 2nd tier cities and access to under/un-served markets.

Chengdu is Air China's 2nd biggest hub (could very well relieve Beijing from the connecting Chinese domestics, and Chongqing is Air China's primary focus city that they want to add more international connections for business reasons). Since CA is Star Alliance, I could see them easily implement these routes once they get their A350's and the twice daily PEK-YVR runs becomes congested.

I still for the life of me, can't understand why there is no return of the YVR-KIX route, however. ... It is large enough to support a daily 767 at least, yet AC will not reinstate and ANA will not take it on. ... Hopefully this could be one of the first announcements to add to Vancouver's cachet of Pacific flight additions (return routes); I'd also love to see the return of Singapore. ...

Go Get Em!

Johnny Aussie
Sep 25, 2010, 10:43 AM
^Yes, the China - Australia market is larger and getting larger. This market is also enhanced by the Australia - Europe market, where there are getting to be more choices all the time (CZ, MU, CA, CX etc).

If I recall in the updated Canadian - China bilateral, the following Chinese cities were designated for allowable China - Canada flights:

Beijing
Shanghai
Hong Kong
Guangzhou
Hangzhou
Xian
Chengdu
Kunming
Quingdao
Chongqing
Harbin
Dalian

So I could see Chongqing and Chengdu as possibilities as well as the obvious Guangzhou.

trofirhen
Sep 25, 2010, 1:33 PM
^Yes, the China - Australia market is larger and getting larger. This market is also enhanced by the Australia - Europe market, where there are getting to be more choices all the time (CZ, MU, CA, CX etc).

If I recall in the updated Canadian - China bilateral, the following Chinese cities were designated for allowable China - Canada flights:

Beijing
Shanghai
Hong Kong
Guangzhou
Hangzhou
Xian
Chengdu
Kunming
Quingdao
Chongqing
Harbin
Dalian

So I could see Chongqing and Chengdu as possibilities as well as the obvious Guangzhou.

Here in Vancouver, the concept of increasing flights to Europe is marginal at best. Everyone seems pre-occupied to the hilt with Asia.

Johnny Aussie
Sep 25, 2010, 8:35 PM
Here in Vancouver, the concept of increasing flights to Europe is marginal at best. Everyone seems pre-occupied to the hilt with Asia.

I reckon that is because the market potential from YVR is so much stronger from Asia. Europe's potential would be somewhat limited as markets are very mature compared to Asia's burgeoning middle class. However, having said that, CDG, MUC, ZRH (added frequency) could be potential routes added (these routes have all been flown before). Air Transat has been dabbling in thinner routes such as BCN, MAD, FCO, so I am not sure if those routes will return next summer or if there will be any new ones. I fugure most of those routes would be handled by the odd charter including places served in the past such as DUB, BFS, CWL etc.

trofirhen
Sep 25, 2010, 10:08 PM
I reckon that is because the market potential from YVR is so much stronger from Asia. Europe's potential would be somewhat limited as markets are very mature compared to Asia's burgeoning middle class. However, having said that, CDG, MUC, ZRH (added frequency) could be potential routes added (these routes have all been flown before). Air Transat has been dabbling in thinner routes such as BCN, MAD, FCO, so I am not sure if those routes will return next summer or if there will be any new ones. I fugure most of those routes would be handled by the odd charter including places served in the past such as DUB, BFS, CWL etc.

Thank you. Your feedback makes a lot of sense. Nevertheless, there are airports (presumably with accompanying markets) that are requesting Vancouver. One is Copenhagen Kastrup. Here's an interesting link:
Click on "the Route Shop EUROPE" square for CPH, and other world regions for other airports.

http://www.therouteshop.com/ljubljana-airport/

Johnny Aussie
Sep 26, 2010, 1:10 AM
Thank you. Your feedback makes a lot of sense. Nevertheless, there are airports (presumably with accompanying markets) that are requesting Vancouver. One is Copenhagen Kastrup. Here's an interesting link:
Click on "the Route Shop EUROPE" square for CPH, and other world regions for other airports.

http://www.therouteshop.com/ljubljana-airport/

That is an interesting website. CPH's page needs to be updated as it shows YYZ as an "unserved" market. I recall Sterling used to offer summer charters from YVR and YYC to CPH many years ago, on a 727 via KEF. And SK's recent pullout of SEA-CPH made sense as LH's new FRA route and AF's new CDG route was just killing them. I would be surprised if any sched carrier added CPH to YVR, but CPH must think otherwise if they have YVR in their "unserved routes required" list! ZRH also lists YVR as "unserved" as it is only a weekly seasonal service. I read Edelweiss is increasing this to 2x per week next summer.

If I had to predict I would say the next 3 international routes out of YVR will be CAN, DEL and CDG.

trofirhen
Sep 26, 2010, 3:35 PM
That is an interesting website.

If I had to predict I would say the next 3 international routes out of YVR will be CAN, DEL and CDG.

Thanks again for the response. :) A question, though; although I know CDG is Paris Charles de Gaulle, which airports are CAN and DEL ? :koko:

teriyaki
Sep 26, 2010, 4:58 PM
Thanks again for the response. :) A question, though; although I know CDG is Paris Charles de Gaulle, which airports are CAN and DEL ? :koko:

(DEL) Indira Gandhi International Airport
City: Delhi IN
(CAN) Baiyun Airport
City: Guangzhou CN

Johnny Aussie
Sep 28, 2010, 10:14 PM
Thanks again for the response. :) A question, though; although I know CDG is Paris Charles de Gaulle, which airports are CAN and DEL ? :koko:

Oh yeah, and I wouldn't be surprised if the following also happens in the next couple of years:

OZ (Asiana) to ICN (Incheon)
QF/JQ (Qantas/Jetstar) to SYD (Sydney) most likely JQ though
perhaps KIX (Osaka Kansai) gets re-started too...

Yume-sama
Oct 2, 2010, 7:02 AM
JAL retired one more 747 yesterday. Ours :( JAL's capacity to Tokyo is now less than Air Canada's.

The first JAL 777-200ER to arrive at YVR~
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4086/5043115409_344f7691d0_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/leftdef11bcferries/5043115409/

No more beautiful 747 :P
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4126/5002963589_dd6d03d758_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/41645839@N00/5002963589/

SpongeG
Oct 2, 2010, 11:42 PM
how about some plane watching

WbHo2b0rn6M

Johnny Aussie
Oct 4, 2010, 3:29 PM
^Hmmm not sure about that, what version of the 772 are they using? AC's A330 has only 265 seats.

Loved the AC J seat btw (and the self-serve bar - best one yet). More comfy than SQ's.

AC definitely exceeded my expectations in all categories! Made the 14hours just "fly."

twoNeurons
Oct 4, 2010, 5:09 PM
AC flies this plane to Tokyo: 777-300ER (http://www.aircanada.com/shared/en/common/fleet/pop_fleet77W.html) 349 passengers.

Note: They will also be starting service to Haneda.

deasine
Oct 4, 2010, 5:22 PM
oved the AC J seat btw (and the self-serve bar - best one yet). More comfy than SQ's.

I've heard many good things about AC's J seat and seating layout. While there are many J/C Class herringbone configurations introduced by different airlines, I've heard AC's feel wider and larger than most other counterparts, say compared to CX where it feels like a cubical. What can probably improve on their J/C Class is the quality of food and service levels.

Johnny Aussie
Oct 4, 2010, 9:52 PM
AC flies this plane to Tokyo: 777-300ER (http://www.aircanada.com/shared/en/common/fleet/pop_fleet77W.html) 349 passengers.

Note: They will also be starting service to Haneda.

That was until last week. Autumn/Winter they downguage to an A330 and then further downguage to a 763 later in the winter when they start the Haneda service.

twoNeurons
Oct 4, 2010, 10:02 PM
That was until last week. Autumn/Winter they downguage to an A330 and then further downguage to a 763 later in the winter when they start the Haneda service.

Didn't know that. I've always flown in the spring. Although, I pulled that information off their website for a flight in November... so either this change isn't reflected in their schedule or they've started using 777s for a larger part of the year.

Gordon
Oct 4, 2010, 10:18 PM
It looks now as if Tokyo is going to be a 763 even next Summer, the 777 is a newer better plane could this cost Air Canada business?

Johnny Aussie
Oct 4, 2010, 10:30 PM
It looks now as if Tokyo is going to be a 763 even next Summer, the 777 is a newer better plane could this cost Air Canada business?

I think the downguage to the 763 on the YVR - NRT was a factor when they announced the HND flights. So overall the YVR-Tokyo market will have a capacity boost anyway.

whatnext
Oct 4, 2010, 10:33 PM
It looks now as if Tokyo is going to be a 763 even next Summer, the 777 is a newer better plane could this cost Air Canada business?

Your average passenger wouldn't know the difference, as the onboard product is the same (same pods up front and same seats in Y). If I was flying in economy I'd prefer the 767 with its 2-3-2 layout, rather than the 3-3-3 of the 777.

As to AC's pods, they're pretty comfortable. I'm 6ft, 200 lbs and don't find them too tight, but then I can never sleep on a plane anyway!:hyper:

Gordon
Oct 4, 2010, 10:55 PM
One reason Air Canada reduced frequencies to Asia was fuel consumption, and that problem hasn't gone away. Any any idea how the 767 & the A 330 compare fuel wise? The first 787 delivery for AC is 2013

PaperTiger
Oct 4, 2010, 11:08 PM
Your average passenger wouldn't know the difference, as the onboard product is the same (same pods up front and same seats in Y). If I was flying in economy I'd prefer the 767 with its 2-3-2 layout, rather than the 3-3-3 of the 777.

I'm maybe not your average passenger, as I do notice the differences between aircraft, but as a frequent long haul economy traveler (by frequent I mean +/- 6 legs a year.) I would hands down choose a retrofitted 767 of the 777 for exactly that reason.

Nothing sucks worse than being stuck in the middle seat all the way to GRU or HKG.

SpongeG
Oct 5, 2010, 1:11 AM
montreal is getting year round montreal-munich service with lufthansa

http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/Lufthansa-to-Offer-Year-Round-Nonstop-Service-From-Montreal-to-Munich-1329288.htm

Yume-sama
Oct 5, 2010, 1:14 AM
Also keep in mind their 767's are on the chopping block, and have lived another day only because the 787 is late.

I think it's likely YVR - NRT and HND could both be 787.

Just as long as their 767's are retrofitted I don't really care. I hope to fly back to Tokyo in January, either with AC or JAL.

But I think I'll actually choose AC because of the A/C power and USB Plugs. If only they had wi-fi. Ahhh....

jsbertram
Oct 5, 2010, 6:48 AM
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20101004-710637.html

WestJet Airlines Ltd. said Monday it inked its first code-share arrangement with Hong Kong's Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd., a key deal as Canada's low-cost carrier seeks to tap international markets.

Their accord comes six months after Dallas-based Southwest Airlines Co. (LUV) backed out of a code-share arrangement with WestJet, which wants to pursue an alliance with a U.S. airline. Calgary-based WestJet, which models itself after Southwest, struck a code-share deal with Southwest in July 2008 but it was never implemented.

Code-sharing, which enables an airline to sell seats, under its own name, on another carrier's flight, is important for WestJet, which needs to expand into overseas markets to grow its business. Its own fleet of Boeing 737 Next Generation planes lack transoceanic range.

deasine
Oct 5, 2010, 10:15 AM
Another step in the right direction for Westjet. Passengers can already connect through Cathay already, but this it taking it a step beyond that. I'm really hoping WestJet can join up with OneWorld one day =P

Van23H
Oct 5, 2010, 12:08 PM
Brooks Brothers will be opening a store in YVR airport the hoarding has been put up. It is located right before security in front of the entrance to the International terminal. Great news for YVR they have some great shops set up :D

MalcolmTucker
Oct 7, 2010, 4:19 AM
For those hoping that the UAE's heavy hand would cause a new bilateral, I have bad news:
Canadian military may pull forces from base in UAE


The Canadian military is poised to pull its forces out of a secret military base near Dubai that's used as a staging ground for troops serving in Afghanistan, rather than relent to demands made by the United Arab Emirates, CTV News has learned.



The UAE threatened to close the base unless Canada gave additional landing rights to its two commercial airlines, Emirates Airline and Etihad Airways -- including for direct routes to Calgary and Vancouver.



Source CTV News, more here (http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20101006/dubai-military-base-canada-101006/)

Yume-sama
Oct 7, 2010, 4:43 AM
It's not a very good secret base if we know where it is, what it does, and who uses it.

deasine
Oct 7, 2010, 5:03 AM
Terry Fox International. Yay? Or Nay?