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Kapten
Aug 22, 2013, 9:13 PM
Any chance that Air Canada or Air France will launch service to CDG from YVR?

Will Swiss someday operate YVR-ZRH?

Johnny Aussie
Aug 23, 2013, 1:17 AM
Any chance that Air Canada or Air France will launch service to CDG from YVR?

Will Swiss someday operate YVR-ZRH?

Chance is an appropriate word. Yes there is always a "chance."

I believe we will see AC launch YVR-FRA on its own metal before anything to CDG.

Edelweiss does fly summer seasonal twice weekly flights to ZRH from YVR. Swiss does code-share on this route.

Hourglass
Aug 23, 2013, 1:28 AM
^^ Agree. AC would look to FRA before CDG. Major Star Alliance hub, code-sharing with LH and all that.

Interesting to note that Delta is really building up their Asian operations in Seattle, adding HKG and ICN next year. By my count, that will give DL 42 flights/week to Asian destinations next summer. That's more than what Air Canada has out of its YVR "Asian hub" currently.

YVR still has more flights to Asia and Europe, but SEA is catching up fast.

Spork
Aug 23, 2013, 2:14 AM
I haven't been to the airport in close to a year, so I haven't seen first-hand how the designer outlet mall is progressing. Could anyone who frequents the area offer an update? Are they still at the site prep stage?

Still in pre-loading stage. I don't even think they are finished delivering all of the pre-loading materials.

Johnny Aussie
Aug 23, 2013, 3:01 AM
Still in pre-loading stage. I don't even think they are finished delivering all of the pre-loading materials.

Not surprising. Anything being built on Sea Island requires ages for the pre-loading to settle. The joys of being on a "flood-plain."

cyeg66
Aug 23, 2013, 4:11 AM
July:

http://www.yvr.ca/Libraries/Aviation_Marketing/1992-2013_Pax_July_2013.sflb.ashx

Nice stats. Capacity boost in virtually all (most) sectors yielding results.

Johnny Aussie
Aug 23, 2013, 7:10 AM
July:

http://www.yvr.ca/Libraries/Aviation_Marketing/1992-2013_Pax_July_2013.sflb.ashx

Nice stats. Capacity boost in virtually all (most) sectors yielding results.

This doc has a good comparison to July 2012:

http://yvr.ca/Libraries/Aviation_Marketing/July_Traffic_Update.sflb.ashx

Highlights:

Highest July ever
Highest July Domestic ever
Highest July Asia Pacific ever

Domestic up 3.5%
Transborder up 4.3%
Asia Pacific up 5.9% (CA, MU, CZ increases)
Europe Scheduled up 13% (LH MUC)
Europe Charter down 13.1% (reduced TS flying)
Europe overall up 2.7%
Misc International down 12.3% (slightly lower Sun destination flying) a very minuscule sector only ~ 18-20k pax per month in summer normally. You gain or lose one weekly 738 and this blows the stats one way or the other.

trofirhen
Aug 23, 2013, 7:55 AM
^^ Agree. AC would look to FRA before CDG. Major Star Alliance hub, code-sharing with LH and all that.

Interesting to note that Delta is really building up their Asian operations in Seattle, adding HKG and ICN next year. By my count, that will give DL 42 flights/week to Asian destinations next summer. That's more than what Air Canada has out of its YVR "Asian hub" currently.

YVR still has more flights to Asia and Europe, but SEA is catching up fast.
If the trend continues, will that not eclipse YVR as the "Asian gateway," esp for US passengers currently transiting through YVR? YVR's importance as an airport hinges largely on Asian connections. If we lose that primacy, what are the longer-term implications?

Johnny Aussie
Aug 23, 2013, 8:51 AM
If the trend continues, will that not eclipse YVR as the "Asian gateway," esp for US passengers currently transiting through YVR? YVR's importance as an airport hinges largely on Asian connections. If we lose that primacy, what are the longer-term implications?

I don't get your approach to this?

Look at the recent pax stats. YVR just posted its highest July Asia Pacific stats ever. And this trend will continue through the winter (ie most of these recent flight increase announcements are being made permanent year-round additions). Go back through this thread and you will see that. So not only is SEA getting some great new flights/routes, but so is YVR, quite significantly. I also have some information that YVR will get some more Asian flights as well AND more European flights.

I do not understand what you mean by eclipse YVR as "the" Asian gateway. SFO and LAX are by far larger Asia Pacific markets on the west coast. In fact increases in capacity are being realised right up and down the west coast. This includes SEA, YVR, SFO and LAX.

Also, the reliance on US passengers feeding the Asian flights is much less important now compared to when CP had its large Asian operations.

The pie is a big one, it's getting bigger so plenty for everyone... so don't be so worried mate.

trofirhen
Aug 23, 2013, 1:17 PM
I don't get your approach to this?

Look at the recent pax stats. YVR just posted its highest July Asia Pacific stats ever. And this trend will continue through the winter (ie most of these recent flight increase announcements are being made permanent year-round additions). Go back through this thread and you will see that. So not only is SEA getting some great new flights/routes, but so is YVR, quite significantly. I also have some information that YVR will get some more Asian flights as well AND more European flights.

I do not understand what you mean by eclipse YVR as "the" Asian gateway. SFO and LAX are by far larger Asia Pacific markets on the west coast. In fact increases in capacity are being realised right up and down the west coast. This includes SEA, YVR, SFO and LAX.

Also, the reliance on US passengers feeding the Asian flights is much less important now compared to when CP had its large Asian operations.

The pie is a big one, it's getting bigger so plenty for everyone... so don't be so worried mate.
Thank you for that feedback. It's reassuring. My fear was that Vancouver would be "eclipsed" by SEA-TAC in most overseas markets, but as you point out, this is surely not the case, so thanks again.

LeftCoaster
Aug 23, 2013, 5:10 PM
So what if it's eclipsed, there are more than enough passengers for multiple asian hubs, expecially when you have different alliances serving different airports.

It seems as though Vancouver is a major star alliance hub while Seattle is a major Skyteam asian hub.

Seattle LAX San Fran and Vancouver could all share the duties and still enjoy lots of growth and passengers.

It's not like there's only one hub to hop over the Atlantic to Europe.

connect2source
Aug 23, 2013, 5:28 PM
Although the July numbers are encouraging, it's been a rather lethargic and slow return to the 2008 figures, I would have thought it would have taken less than 5 years to eclipse 2008

At this rate, we're about 70K over last year's numbers so it may very well be 2014 'til be trump 2008.

SFUVancouver
Aug 23, 2013, 5:59 PM
Still in pre-loading stage. I don't even think they are finished delivering all of the pre-loading materials.

Thank you.

Hourglass
Aug 24, 2013, 7:51 AM
So what if it's eclipsed, there are more than enough passengers for multiple asian hubs, expecially when you have different alliances serving different airports.

It seems as though Vancouver is a major star alliance hub while Seattle is a major Skyteam asian hub.

Seattle LAX San Fran and Vancouver could all share the duties and still enjoy lots of growth and passengers.

It's not like there's only one hub to hop over the Atlantic to Europe.

Yes, there is enough growth from Asia to go around.

On the other hand, it's worth noting that this is a highly competitive environment. YYC is building a major terminal expansion and gunning for a share of Asian traffic. SEA has a new parallel runway. So yes, Delta setting up a major transit hub just 120 miles down the road DOES impact Vancouver.

A potential result I see is that the number of passengers from the Lower Mainland flying via SEA will increase, driven by lower fares and better connectivity to other US destinations. Canadian airports operate at a cost disadvantage relative to their US counterparts, due to higher fuel costs as well as government taxes and fees (eg. YVR paid >$39 million in ground rent to the federal government in 2012).

The other issue with SEA's proximity to YVR is that international airlines wanting to serve the Pacific Northwest might choose to serve one or the other, but not both (BA and LH being notable exceptions). Delta's strong hub in SEA makes it a more attractive choice for onward connections.

Bottom line is YVR's hub status could be affected, which impacts Vancouver not only economically, but also in terms of network diversity and frequency.

trofirhen
Aug 24, 2013, 8:41 AM
Yes, there is enough growth from Asia to go around.

On the other hand, it's worth noting that this is a highly competitive environment. YYC is building a major terminal expansion and gunning for a share of Asian traffic. SEA has a new parallel runway. So yes, Delta setting up a major transit hub just 120 miles down the road DOES impact Vancouver.

A potential result I see is that the number of passengers from the Lower Mainland flying via SEA will increase, driven by lower fares and better connectivity to other US destinations. Canadian airports operate at a cost disadvantage relative to their US counterparts, due to higher fuel costs as well as government taxes and fees (eg. YVR paid >$39 million in ground rent to the federal government in 2012).

The other issue with SEA's proximity to YVR is that international airlines wanting to serve the Pacific Northwest might choose to serve one or the other, but not both (BA and LH being notable exceptions). Delta's strong hub in SEA makes it a more attractive choice for onward connections.

Bottom line is YVR's hub status could be affected, which impacts Vancouver not only economically, but also in terms of network diversity and frequency.
That's rather what I was thinking when I posted the question. YVR Asia traffic could be drawn off by lower fares on DL out of SEA TAC. And as you added, YVR's hub status could be weakened, as you say, "in terms of network diversity and frequency." And that's bad news.
[please excuse this response as contradictory to the one I just posted, but I think Hourglass hit the nail on the head here]

twoNeurons
Aug 26, 2013, 8:24 PM
Like it has been said:
YVR is Star Alliance
SEA is SkyTeam

ICN is likely because they would codeshare with Korean Airlines, which is SkyTeam and ICN is a major hub.

In other news, AC is now charging for a 2nd piece of luggage to Japan. JAL (OneWorld) still does not.

Gordon
Aug 26, 2013, 8:59 PM
A year or so back the provincial tax of aviation fuel was removed which was removed on international flights.

deasine
Aug 27, 2013, 1:27 AM
ICN is likely because they would codeshare with Korean Airlines, which is SkyTeam and ICN is a major hub.


Keep in mind though that DL and KE aren't on the greatest terms (no presence of an Asian JV, little flight/timing cooperations between DL/KE, many restrictions/exceptions for SkyTeam Elite Plus members travelling on KE, etc.).

Update: to further prove my point, look at this recent announcement: http://boardingarea.com/pointsmilesandmartinis/2013/08/its-happening-korean-and-delta-make-big-changes-to-partnership-codeshare-flights/?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=twitterfeed

Johnny Aussie
Aug 27, 2013, 2:45 AM
^^^ I have been meaning to reply again about SEA but no time... here we go!

1) The airline industry has always been a highly competitive one, what industry technically isn't?
2) YYC is definitely building an amazing new international terminal which may steal some Asian traffic. Economically, one could argue YYC would have an advantage, but don't discount YVR's business ties with Asia. This is still huge. Geographically and ethnically, YVR will still garner an advantage.
3) SEA's "new" parallel runway is now 5 years old actually and SEA growth has been less than YVR mainly during this period.
4) be careful using the terms "major" and "hub" in the same sentence. Even DL does not consider SEA a hub. Adding 3 more daily international flights may make them change SEA to the definition of a mini-hub. This operation is by no means a major hub. On the same note, I do not see YVR as a major hub either. In fact, I would use the term hub for YVR quite loosely.
5) The lower fares argument. Yes, this will aways be a factor for YVR. BUT, is this anything new? No. Ever since the 1980s YVR has always had to deal with passenger spillage to the south. Recently, BLI and SEA. But again, this is nothing "new" to deal with. Crossing the border these days is not as easy as it was 12 years ago. If YVR's transborder numbers (in particular) were declining at a rapid rate, I would say the BLI/SEA effect is realy significant. Absolutely, YVR would have even more transborder traffic without BLI and SEA so close, but look at the recent growth in stats. Not bad.
6) KE, BR and DE also serve both YVR and SEA. Recently, Hainan, Icelandair and Emirates have started SEA. But China Eastern, China Southern and Sichuan have commenced YVR. Interesting to note JL, MU and CI all served both YVR and SEA at the same time, but all 3 have pulled out of SEA.

In conclusion, yes this may have an impact on YVR, but I don't think it is in the category of "doom and gloom."

nname
Aug 27, 2013, 8:13 AM
Low fare? I don't think trans-pacific flights from SEA are that cheap anymore. It used to be 5-10 years ago, but now they seems to be pretty much the same...

Just some example of some flights on October I find on Google - both YVR and SEA departures and arrivals are on the same date.

SEA-NRT: DL $1194, UA $1235, 1-stop $948
YVR-NRT: AC $1064, 1-stop $989

SEA-HKG: 1-stop $906
YVR-HKG: AC $901, 1-stop $1063

SEA-TPE: BR $1259, 1-stop $1173
YVR-TPE: CI $1254, BR $1256, 1-stop $1199

Is flying from SEA that much cheaper than YVR?

twoNeurons
Aug 27, 2013, 8:02 PM
Keep in mind though that DL and KE aren't on the greatest terms (no presence of an Asian JV, little flight/timing cooperations between DL/KE, many restrictions/exceptions for SkyTeam Elite Plus members travelling on KE, etc.).

Update: to further prove my point, look at this recent announcement: http://boardingarea.com/pointsmilesandmartinis/2013/08/its-happening-korean-and-delta-make-big-changes-to-partnership-codeshare-flights

Very interesting. Which is why Delta flying to ICN makes all the more sense. KE looks like it might consider joining OneWorld.

trofirhen
Aug 28, 2013, 1:23 AM
Very interesting. Which is why Delta flying to ICN makes all the more sense. KE looks like it might consider joining OneWorld.

I could not find that statement in the article. Where is it mentioned, please? Or did you learn that elsewhere?

Spork
Aug 28, 2013, 3:50 AM
Although this isn't the place for highlighting deals, I believe that the recent large expansion by a number of Asian airlines discussed in this thread has likely prompted this move by Air Canada: $739 flights (return) (http://www.yvrdeals.com/vancouver-to-china-739-roundtrip-after-taxes-up-to-march-2014) to Shanghai/Beijing.

deasine
Aug 28, 2013, 10:17 PM
Very interesting. Which is why Delta flying to ICN makes all the more sense. KE looks like it might consider joining OneWorld.

According to a recent announcement, it was apparently "a technical error" on Delta's part. However, they mentioned that their codeshare agreements only go up to mid-year 2014, which is approximately when DL will be launching their new Asia services.

All of KEs moves towards oneworld have been rumors and there's really no conclusive evidence. That being said, KE does have some notable partnerships with oneworld airlines, i.e. JL and their business structure/style of working independently seems to fit with the culture of oneworld.

twoNeurons
Aug 29, 2013, 10:49 PM
Yep. Everything's rumours at this point. OneWorld is definitely seen as a smaller more exclusive club, though... BA, JAL, Qantas, AA and Cathay.

JAL would likely form some barriers for KE, though... given that they're trying to make Tokyo-Haneda the Hub of Asia to compete with ICN.

deasine
Aug 30, 2013, 12:37 AM
Yep. Everything's rumours at this point. OneWorld is definitely seen as a smaller more exclusive club, though... BA, JAL, Qantas, AA and Cathay.

JAL would likely form some barriers for KE, though... given that they're trying to make Tokyo-Haneda the Hub of Asia to compete with ICN.

JL and KE have reciprocal codeshare agreements and while they may be geographic competitors, they both have very different strategies in expanding internationally.

Johnny Aussie
Aug 30, 2013, 11:35 AM
AC is in the middle of updating the winter scheds.

Definitely not finalised yet but so far the following are some significant changes from last winter:

YYZ will have 2-3 daily 77W along with the daily 77L. So depending on the day of the week 3 or 4 daily 777.

YUL's morning flight is being upgauged to a 333.

YWG back to 3 daily compared to 2 last winter.

YXY going mainline 2 daily E90. Up from 3 daily CRJ last winter.

YMM up to 2 daily from 1.

YXT up to 4 daily from 3.

LAX's first morning flight being upguaged to a 320.

YXJ and YXS are losing a daily rotation each but DH4's replacing the CRJ action, so capacity on both routes higher.

That's it for now.

Vanzunator
Sep 3, 2013, 4:48 AM
according to airlineroutes.net, we will see Lufthansa 747-400 at YVR 29Jan14 to 29MAR14, this is a great capacity increase over the typical winder A340-300.

Frankfurt – Vancouver Airbus A340-300 operation in Winter 2012/13 season replaced by following:
27OCT13 – 28JAN14 Airbus A340-600
29JAN14 – 29MAR14 Boeing 747-400 (NEW Adjustment)

Johnny Aussie
Sep 3, 2013, 5:56 AM
according to airlineroutes.net, we will see Lufthansa 747-400 at YVR 29Jan14 to 29MAR14, this is a great capacity increase over the typical winder A340-300.

Frankfurt – Vancouver Airbus A340-300 operation in Winter 2012/13 season replaced by following:
27OCT13 – 28JAN14 Airbus A340-600
29JAN14 – 29MAR14 Boeing 747-400 (NEW Adjustment)

I reported that on Aug 22 re: B744 and the upgauging of the 343 to the 346 ages ago. Sometimes (very rarely) I beat him to the punch. :-)

Johnny Aussie
Sep 3, 2013, 5:07 PM
http://www.icelandair.us/information/media/newslist/detail/item698698/icelandair_announces_growth_plans_for_2014

Effective 13 May 2014 new twice weekly seasonal YVR-KEF service on 757-200.

Flights to operate Mondays and Wednesdays through mid October.
Flights from KEF-YVR will operate Tuesdays and Sundays though. Like Seattle, the planes will sit on the ground in YVR for about 23 hours.

This is in addition to the much-hyped new service from YEG.

In typical YVRAA fashion, not a peep out of them. Ha!

Still good news for another option YVR-Europe. Trofirhen was I right? :-)

deasine
Sep 3, 2013, 5:49 PM
Beat me to it haha!

Denscity
Sep 3, 2013, 5:59 PM
I wonder if the YVR Iceland Air new addition was either considered no big deal or they just wanted to keep it a secret? Another international carrier to a new city and new connections is great news I think.

Johnny Aussie
Sep 3, 2013, 8:43 PM
I wonder if the YVR Iceland Air new addition was either considered no big deal or they just wanted to keep it a secret? Another international carrier to a new city and new connections is great news I think.

I think the YVRAA just isn't as quick to the mark to release press items. I recall the China Southern and Sichuan announcements took awhile to get mentioned.

YEG on the other hand pre-empts by announcing the official announcement in advance. Obviously it is a much bigger event there as this will be a huge boost to their options to Europe.

Next summer YVR will have 9 airlines flying to 10 European airports non-stop.

Denscity
Sep 3, 2013, 8:51 PM
I think the YVRAA just isn't as quick to the mark to release press items. I recall the China Southern and Sichuan announcements took awhile to get mentioned.

YEG on the other hand pre-empts by announcing the official announcement in advance. Obviously it is a much bigger event there as this will be a huge boost to their options to Europe.

[B]Next summer YVR will have 9 airlines flying to 10 European airports non-stop.

That's pretty impressive!

Kapten
Sep 3, 2013, 10:59 PM
Next summer YVR will have 9 airlines flying to 10 European airports non-stop.

Here are the airlines/destinations that I know of:
Air Canada - London Heathrow
British Airways - London Heathrow
Virgin- London Heathrow
Edelweiss - Zurich
Lufthansa - Munich + Frankfurt
KLM- Amsterdam
Iceland Air - Reykjavik
Air Transat- Glasgow + Manchester + London Gatwick + Paris

That makes 10 airports but only 8 airlines. Which carrier did I miss...?

Johnny Aussie
Sep 3, 2013, 11:13 PM
Here are the airlines/destinations that I know of:
Air Canada - London Heathrow
British Airways - London Heathrow
Virgin- London Heathrow
Edelweiss - Zurich
Lufthansa - Munich + Frankfurt
KLM- Amsterdam
Iceland Air - Reykjavik
Air Transat- Glasgow + Manchester + London Gatwick + Paris

That makes 10 airports but only 8 airlines. Which carrier did I miss...?

Condor to FRA 4 x per week

Air Transat also AMS and FRA as well

Klazu
Sep 4, 2013, 3:39 AM
That Icelandair news is great and exactly what I have been hoping to happen! I will definitely try that in April, when I will be heading to Iceland! :)

mezzanine
Sep 4, 2013, 4:07 AM
Great news about icelandair!

it looks like they don't belong to any airline alliance. anyone know if they integrate with star alliance in a modest way?

deasine
Sep 4, 2013, 4:12 AM
Great news about icelandair!

it looks like they don't belong to any airline alliance. anyone know if they integrate with star alliance in a modest way?

Their business structure does not fit into any alliance network and they don't seem to have any interest in joining an alliance let alone Star.

whatnext
Sep 4, 2013, 4:54 AM
Condor to FRA 4 x per week

Air Transat also AMS and FRA as well

Edelweiss?

Valley_Refugee
Sep 4, 2013, 5:17 AM
Flights from KEF-YVR will operate Tuesdays and Sundays though. Like Seattle, the planes will sit on the ground in YVR for about 23 hours.

I noticed that too. KEF-YVR should be less than a one frame commitment per round trip. The flight lands at 17:50, surely they could get a 757-2 back out by 19:30, landing in KEF around 09:30+1. However, checking their departures from KEF, most of their Scandianvian and Western European flights are around 7:30am, give or take. So the YVR-KEF is timed to arrive at 06:25 to connect onwards.

Johnny Aussie
Sep 4, 2013, 10:21 PM
Edelweiss?

Edelweiss to ZRH was already in Kapten's list.

And just today, Edelweiss loaded their 2014 summer schedules.

As in 2013, twice weekly YVR-ZRH.

Flights will operate on Tuesdays and Sundays.

trofirhen
Sep 6, 2013, 2:29 PM
Please excuse my stating what everyone already knows, but regarding SEA-TAC airport catching up to YVR, It IS dramatic (the growth at SEA-TAC)

The growth statisitcs there are impressive, to say the least, and really don't allow for too much complacency about YVR being a "top dog" for Asian, and other overseas, destinations for the PNW, IMO. Click in the link and look, if interested. Thank you. :)

http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/216374/seattle-tacoma-international-the-fastest-growing-airport-on-the-us-west-coast/

deasine
Sep 6, 2013, 8:09 PM
The increase is really due to DLs ramping up their operations at SEA. With the increases in MU flights and I'm sure there will be more from other Asian carriers, I wouldn't be surprised if YVRs change will be more drastic next year.

By the way, there are a lot of discussions in Chinese Aviation about removing the "one route one carrier" regulation (which I argue is ridiculous). If this gets removed and the aviation industry as whole becomes more deregulated, I wouldn't be surprised seeing CZ introduce YVR-PEK among many other flights. Chinese carriers are really focused in the TPAC market (as opposed to the Europe-Asia market due to saturation).

Also note, MU and CZ seem very content and settled with YVR (the increase in frequencies are a big indication of such). Even though they are both SkyTeam carriers, I don't think they will be flying to SEA anytime soon, and even if they do, it wouldn't be at the expense of YVR. If WS can increase their presence at YVR and act as a strong traffic feeder, there's less of a need to fly to SEA.

Valley_Refugee
Sep 6, 2013, 10:22 PM
Please excuse my stating what everyone already knows, but regarding SEA-TAC airport catching up to YVR, It IS dramatic (the growth at SEA-TAC)

The growth statisitcs there are impressive, to say the least, and really don't allow for too much complacency about YVR being a "top dog" for Asian, and other overseas, destinations for the PNW, IMO. Click in the link and look, if interested. Thank you.

http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/...us-west-coast/

Yes, trofirhen, the sky is falling...

SEA was underserved compared to YVR for a very long time. It also competed with SFO and LAX for traffic, whereas YVR is it on the Canadian west coast. Delta has also flirted with SEA as a focus city for years and it appears they've ramped up operations there once again. International tickets out of SEA are rarely much lower than YVR's, and almost never worth the cost of driving and parking.

twoNeurons
Sep 6, 2013, 11:26 PM
Yes, trofirhen, the sky is falling...

SEA was underserved compared to YVR for a very long time. It also competed with SFO and LAX for traffic, whereas YVR is it on the Canadian west coast. Delta has also flirted with SEA as a focus city for years and it appears they've ramped up operations there once again. International tickets out of SEA are rarely much lower than YVR's, and almost never worth the cost of driving and parking.

From personal experience we booked direct flights SEA-KIX (Osaka) a while back on Delta for relatives. Didn't want to deal with any transfers.

Problem is... the regulations for bringing food items into the US is more stringent than Canada. They said that in future they'll deal with the inconvenience of transferring in Tokyo.

I really miss AC's YVR-KIX and with the Japanese economy the way it is and Japan's focus on Haneda, I don't see Osaka on the map for a long time. AC's Asian product is quite good, though compared to asian airlines, their staff definitely still lacks youth and vigor.

trofirhen
Sep 6, 2013, 11:39 PM
The increase is really due to DLs ramping up their operations at SEA. With the increases in MU flights and I'm sure there will be more from other Asian carriers, I wouldn't be surprised if YVRs change will be more drastic next year.

By the way, there are a lot of discussions in Chinese Aviation about removing the "one route one carrier" regulation (which I argue is ridiculous). If this gets removed and the aviation industry as whole becomes more deregulated, I wouldn't be surprised seeing CZ introduce YVR-PEK among many other flights. Chinese carriers are really focused in the TPAC market (as opposed to the Europe-Asia market due to saturation).

Also note, MU and CZ seem very content and settled with YVR (the increase in frequencies are a big indication of such). Even though they are both SkyTeam carriers, I don't think they will be flying to SEA anytime soon, and even if they do, it wouldn't be at the expense of YVR. If WS can increase their presence at YVR and act as a strong traffic feeder, there's less of a need to fly to SEA.

Yes, trofirhen, the sky is falling...

SEA was underserved compared to YVR for a very long time. It also competed with SFO and LAX for traffic, whereas YVR is it on the Canadian west coast. Delta has also flirted with SEA as a focus city for years and it appears they've ramped up operations there once again. International tickets out of SEA are rarely much lower than YVR's, and almost never worth the cost of driving and parking.


Yes, thank you, VR, I can see the sky isn't falling, as Deasine clearly points out.
Seattle itself is a bigger market in size, and in business travel (yeah yeah Microsoft, Boeing and all that) so I guess it merits Emirates and Paris (was AF now DL)
YVR has Sydney and Auckland, (SEA-TAC doesn't, I checked) with the possibility of Brisbane coming up, (too bad about losing Singapore way back, though. Could we ever get it back if some airline began Dreamliner nonstop?).
Meanwhile, Delta is expanding in Seattle, as noted.
Hmmmmmm
I wonder if Sea-TAC will become the Atlanta of the PNW?
Don't laugh. Seattle has a real economy. Vancouver doesn't, not yet, at least.
That does make a difference in justifying a route, very often it seems. Business Class travel revenue, that is.
Interesting that JAL pulled out of SEA-TAC, though. Vancouver remains. Is that because it's the gateway to Canada,
or simply because it's unprofitable against ramped-up DL Seattle service?

cyeg66
Sep 7, 2013, 1:19 AM
Perhaps because YVR is in Canada and SEA is in the U/S? Just putting that out there. The vast majority of people aren't enamoured with the notion of crossing a border after having flown for half a day, esp when the cost difference is negligible. Btw, the cost of flying in the US is bound to increase as their economy continues to swirl around the porcelain bowl and teeters on the brink (despite Obama's false claims of recovery/stability). YVR will continue to hold its own vis-à-vis SEA.

trofirhen
Sep 7, 2013, 1:36 AM
Perhaps because YVR is in Canada and SEA is in the U/S? Just putting that out there. The vast majority of people aren't enamoured with the notion of crossing a border after having flown for half a day, esp when the cost difference is negligible. Btw, the cost of flying in the US is bound to increase as their economy continues to swirl around the porcelain bowl and teeters on the brink (despite Obama's false claims of recovery/stability). YVR will continue to hold its own vis-à-vis SEA.
Thank you I appreciate that positive feedback. Interstingly, the busiest international route per pax out of SEA-TAC is ... (drum roll) ... none other than YVR itself!! Tokyo is second, Seoul third, Amsterdam fourth and LHR fifth ..if you want to take another glance at SEA-TAC, look here, just under "airlines and destinations":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle%E2%80%93Tacoma_International_Airport#Terminals.2C_airlines.2C_and_destinations

On a tangent, Seattle, with its large Scandinavian population, was served for years by SAS, which dropped it some time back, as people know. Nobody has jumped in to fill the gap. Could that have anything to do with SAS being Star Alliance? (tell 'em to come to YVR)!! Copenhagen from YVR is a potential but as yet unused route from YVR. Wonder if it might be profitable. And would it be a connecting hub, or mostly what, and for where, I wonder.

Johnny Aussie
Sep 7, 2013, 3:02 AM
I've said this a few times now, but IF YVR wasn't adding new routes, capacity increases etc BUT only Seattle was, then I would say hmmmm....but since YVR is adding so many new flights as well, both airports are on track for some decent growth. Troferhen every time you post you seem to neglect to notice all of YVR recent flight increases? You seem to think these SEA increases are coming at the expense of service losses to YVR?

Europe seems to be finally getting a bit more attention from YVR... LH upgauging its winter flight program, LH starting the seasonal MUC flight earlier next year, new Icelandair service, AC increasing LHR capacity due to the higher density 77W (450+ seats), stay tuned for more YVR - Europe flying in the not too distant future. All in all, not bad service increases being realised to Asia, Europe, South Pacific (Air NZ)!

cyeg66
Sep 7, 2013, 3:12 AM
^That sums it up. After relatively flat growth for the better part of a decade, I think YVR is doing quite well of late and seems to be picking up momentum. So trofirhen, you can take a breath now. YVR will forever be positioned as our Asia-Pacific-Oceania gateway, the world's greatest (and perpetually) growing air market. The future looks bright, gotta wear shades. (Ooh, sorry about that, fellas)

trofirhen
Sep 7, 2013, 3:46 AM
I've said this a few times now, but IF YVR wasn't adding new routes, capacity increases etc BUT only Seattle was, then I would say hmmmm....but since YVR is adding so many new flights as well, both airports are on track for some decent growth. Troferhen every time you post you seem to neglect to notice all of YVR recent flight increases? You seem to think these SEA increases are coming at the expense of service losses to YVR?

Europe seems to be finally getting a bit more attention from YVR... LH upgauging its winter flight program, LH starting the seasonal MUC flight earlier next year, new Icelandair service, AC increasing LHR capacity due to the higher density 77W (450+ seats), stay tuned for more YVR - Europe flying in the not too distant future. All in all, not bad service increases being realised to Asia, Europe, South Pacific (Air NZ)!
Good news! I appreciate the feedback. My real concern was that if some airlines regarded Vancouver/Seattle as one regional PNW market, they'd choose Seattle over Vancouver, but that's not really happening, as you say.
I'm interested to see what'll come up for YVR over the next three years or so.

Kapten
Sep 7, 2013, 4:25 AM
I've said this a few times now, but IF YVR wasn't adding new routes, capacity increases etc BUT only Seattle was, then I would say hmmmm....but since YVR is adding so many new flights as well, both airports are on track for some decent growth. Troferhen every time you post you seem to neglect to notice all of YVR recent flight increases? You seem to think these SEA increases are coming at the expense of service losses to YVR?

Europe seems to be finally getting a bit more attention from YVR... LH upgauging its winter flight program, LH starting the seasonal MUC flight earlier next year, new Icelandair service, AC increasing LHR capacity due to the higher density 77W (450+ seats), stay tuned for more YVR - Europe flying in the not too distant future. All in all, not bad service increases being realised to Asia, Europe, South Pacific (Air NZ)!

Johnny do you know of other carriers negotiating to fly here from Europe in the near future?

spaceprobe
Sep 7, 2013, 5:16 AM
what needs to happen is for Westjet to make Vancouver a hub city and give more attention to Vancouver (and not just Calgary). That will serve the international markets the best. Don't know if that will happen, since Westjet remains very Alberta-centric .

deasine
Sep 7, 2013, 8:00 AM
what needs to happen is for Westjet to make Vancouver a hub city and give more attention to Vancouver (and not just Calgary). That will serve the international markets the best. Don't know if that will happen, since Westjet remains very Alberta-centric .

Agreed. And if this were the case, YVR will seem much more of a hub. At the end of the day, Westjet also has the power to pickup feed from all foreign carriers who don't belong to Star (or in other words, don't partner with AC) and in some ways, this is already the case.

trofirhen
Sep 7, 2013, 9:34 AM
what needs to happen is for Westjet to make Vancouver a hub city and give more attention to Vancouver (and not just Calgary). That will serve the international markets the best. Don't know if that will happen, since Westjet remains very Alberta-centric .
Rather an example of what you say is when AC pulled out of Vancouver-San Diego, which would seem a respectable market.
There is is still a WJ nonstop Calgary-San Diego, but Vancouver-San Diego (which I would have thought a larger market) lies unserved now.
I always thought it a little strange that WJ didn't pick up that route.

cyeg66
Sep 7, 2013, 1:42 PM
Well, if AC, with their greater YVR presence than WS, and equipped with E90's/A319's, couldn't make a go of SAN without competition of the route, then why would it make sense for WS with B736's and larger a/c? It may work for WS from YYC because of connecting traffic inbound from the East, and also the fact that YEG + YYC is almost equal to YVR in population (with greater disposable income, I'll add). No less than 7 flights per day from just YEG (you can add YMM, YQU, YXJ now, too) to YYC fill up connecting flights to points beyond. Lots o' feed. A lot of WS's YVR flights are predominantly O&D 'cause the city itself can sustain it, the only exception being the Hawaii flights.

craneSpotter
Sep 7, 2013, 7:07 PM
Rather an example of what you say is when AC pulled out of Vancouver-San Diego, which would seem a respectable market.
There is is still a WJ nonstop Calgary-San Diego, but Vancouver-San Diego (which I would have thought a larger market) lies unserved now.
I always thought it a little strange that WJ didn't pick up that route.

YVR is the largest Origin-Desitnation market from Canada to SAN, about twice the size of YYC-SAN, at least as of 2010 - the latest stats I could find and I doubt that much has changed in 2 years.

See the 2010 report here (city pairs start page 23) - http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/51-205-x/51-205-x2010000-eng.pdf

Westjet's YYC-SAN flight must be bolstered by PAX from YEG, YXE, YQR & YWG to make it work. Interestingly WS could not make YYC-SNA work, they cancelled it this past spring citing poor demand/performance, however they maintained their non-stop YVR-SNA service citing high demand (even with YVR's many LAX flights).

I'm sure YVR will get a non-stop flight to SAN again, the demand is there. As far as WS goes, I think YVR has their only year-round non-stop service to Hawaii (KOA,OGG, HON) and SNA.

Gordon
Sep 7, 2013, 8:09 PM
I womnder why YVR SAN doesn't work because Alaska tried it & could'nt make it work

I wonder if we will ever see YvR to Ontario

casper
Sep 8, 2013, 12:14 AM
I'm sure YVR will get a non-stop flight to SAN again, the demand is there. As far as WS goes, I think YVR has their only year-round non-stop service to Hawaii (KOA,OGG, HON) and SNA.

With 737 aircraft Vancouver and Victoria are the only Canadian cities that WestJet can operate flights to Hawaii with taking a large penalty.

twoNeurons
Sep 8, 2013, 3:27 AM
With 737 aircraft Vancouver and Victoria are the only Canadian cities that WestJet can operate flights to Hawaii with taking a large penalty.

Very good point. If their planes had the range, you can guarantee that they'd fly from Calgary as well. I'm sure there's demand, especially given Calgary's corporate population.

Gordon
Sep 8, 2013, 4:06 AM
Westjet is leasing 2 752s to fly from Alberta to Hawaii a total of 8 or 10 flights \wk split between Calgary & Edmonton.

Johnny Aussie
Sep 8, 2013, 5:47 AM
Very good point. If their planes had the range, you can guarantee that they'd fly from Calgary as well. I'm sure there's demand, especially given Calgary's corporate population.

Hence why they lease the 757s. They will eventually sort out something permanent I am sure. Westjet has really hurt AC's YYC-Hawaii market. YYC-HNL has been cut altogether and YYC-OGG cut to 4 weekly. Effectively cutting capacity in half.

WS has also taken a bite out of AC YVR-Hawaii. This winter both YVR-HNL and YVR-OGG are being cut to 6 weekly each from daily and the once weekly YVR-KOA remains though.

Westjet on the other hand will have 6 daily YVR-Hawaii. 2 daily each to HNL and OGG and once daily each to KOA and LIH. Westjet seems to be holding its own against AC and the Bellingham flights offered on Allegiant and Alaska.

Wouldn't surprise me to see Hawaiian add YVR to their ever expanding international network. If they played their cards right they could tap into the YVR-NZ/Australia market. Hmmmm.

Gordon
Sep 8, 2013, 2:07 PM
the only daily service Air Canada has is from yvr. no non stopsd from ther major hub (yyz) either

trofirhen
Sep 8, 2013, 2:17 PM
................

Wouldn't surprise me to see Hawaiian add YVR to their ever expanding international network. If they played their cards right they could tap into the YVR-NZ/Australia market. Hmmmm.
How would they do this, in your opinion? Surely there would be a necessary change of plane at HNL, (no Fifth Freedoms, I'm sure) but would they then expand, offering connecting flights to BNE, SYD, and MEL, or what? Currently their only Australian destination is SYD, which we already have.
Also, there's talk of YVR-BNE nonstop by AC once it gets enough Dreamliners....
and what about MEL?

Do you have any schematics or feedback on this? Thanks! :)

In fact, looking at Hawaiian Airlines destinations, HNL would weem a great connecting point for PPG (Pago Pago) and PPT, but with
their only onward flight from HNL to Australia being SYD, they'd need to offer some deals on that route, would they not?

http://www.hawaiianairlines.com/aboutus/pages/routemap.aspx

whatnext
Sep 8, 2013, 4:53 PM
Hence why they lease the 757s. They will eventually sort out something permanent I am sure. Westjet has really hurt AC's YYC-Hawaii market. YYC-HNL has been cut altogether and YYC-OGG cut to 4 weekly. Effectively cutting capacity in half.

WS has also taken a bite out of AC YVR-Hawaii. This winter both YVR-HNL and YVR-OGG are being cut to 6 weekly each from daily and the once weekly YVR-KOA remains though.

Westjet on the other hand will have 6 daily YVR-Hawaii. 2 daily each to HNL and OGG and once daily each to KOA and LIH. Westjet seems to be holding its own against AC and the Bellingham flights offered on Allegiant and Alaska.

Wouldn't surprise me to see Hawaiian add YVR to their ever expanding international network. If they played their cards right they could tap into the YVR-NZ/Australia market. Hmmmm.

AC flies 240-260 seats 767's and WS flies 160 seats 737's. Plus Alaska and Allegiant are denting both Canadian carriers HI business with flights out of BLI.

deasine
Sep 8, 2013, 7:14 PM
How would they do this, in your opinion? Surely there would be a necessary change of plane at HNL, (no Fifth Freedoms, I'm sure) but would they then expand, offering connecting flights to BNE, SYD, and MEL, or what? Currently their only Australian destination is SYD, which we already have.

Why would fifth-freedoms be an issue given they are a US Carrier operating on US land. I suggest re-reading up the freedoms of the air and understanding each of them

----

I wouldn't be surprised if ACs Hawaii flights get transferred to Rouge when they expand it over to the West Coast.

Johnny Aussie
Sep 8, 2013, 7:38 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if ACs Hawaii flights get transferred to Rouge when they expand it over to the West Coast.

That would seem the logical next step.

Hawaiian flies to Sydney, Brisbane and Auckland downunder. Melbourne is potentially a future destination as well. But for now Jetstar has that covered and in fact ramping up services later this year.

Nice to see this thread has woken up... YVR certainly hasn't been quiet for goings-on!

Bigtime
Sep 8, 2013, 8:46 PM
Hence why they lease the 757s. They will eventually sort out something permanent I am sure.

I would believe the MAX order will take care of this problem. At that point I would not be surprised to see YYC-OGG go year round.

trofirhen
Sep 8, 2013, 8:48 PM
Why would fifth-freedoms be an issue given they are a US Carrier operating on US land.

I suggest re-reading up the freedoms of the air and understanding each of them
----

I wouldn't be surprised if ACs Hawaii flights get transferred to Rouge when they expand it over to the West Coast.
Thank you. Got it it. I stand corrected.

But in any event, wouldn' HNL be more of a transfer point for people going to Tahiti or American Samoa, than to Australia? (unless the price is right, that is). AC seems to be planning a YVR-BNE bonstop using the Boeing Dreamliner to Brisbane in the next year or two. Brisbane's location geographically makes it the best "gateway" to Australia, on the northeast coast, and we already have the long-standing YVR-SYD run. We have Air NZ to Auckland ... just need to get Melbourne worked into the scheme somehow.

deasine
Sep 8, 2013, 9:12 PM
Thank you. Got it it. I stand corrected.

But in any event, wouldn' HNL be more of a transfer point for people going to Tahiti or American Samoa, than to Australia? (unless the price is right, that is).

But why wouldn't it be a good transfer point? A direct flight from YVR-SYD flies near HNL. The total distance of YVR-SYD direct is only 3 miles less than a YVR-SYD via HNL flight. Surprisingly, there's a considerable number of people that fly from North America to Australia via Asia, and this isn't too surprising because of the bolded part above, cheap prices. A business strategy like this would be similar to Finnair's Europe-Asia strategy, but this is assuming this is what Hawaiian is trying to do...

Johnny Aussie
Sep 8, 2013, 9:37 PM
But why wouldn't it be a good transfer point? A direct flight from YVR-SYD flies near HNL. The total distance of YVR-SYD direct is only 3 miles less than a YVR-SYD via HNL flight. Surprisingly, there's a considerable number of people that fly from North America to Australia via Asia, and this isn't too surprising because of the bolded part above, cheap prices. A business strategy like this would be similar to Finnair's Europe-Asia strategy, but this is assuming this is what Hawaiian is trying to do...

Exactly. I have flown SYD-YVR many many times and the best flight was flying smack over HNL in the middle of the night all lit up.. Impressive sight!

As a frequent Australia-Canada traveller without a doubt there are soooo many options its crazy. AC seems to charge a premium for the "privilege" of flying non-stop. UA/DL/VA take quite a few passengers as well via SFO/LAX so to have HA in the mix would also shake things up. Perhaps Fiji Airways will have a stab at YVR again... who knows in this crazy world if aviation :-)

trofirhen
Sep 8, 2013, 9:46 PM
But why wouldn't it be a good transfer point? A direct flight from YVR-SYD flies near HNL. The total distance of YVR-SYD direct is only 3 miles less than a YVR-SYD via HNL flight. Surprisingly, there's a considerable number of people that fly from North America to Australia via Asia, and this isn't too surprising because of the bolded part above, cheap prices. A business strategy like this would be similar to Finnair's Europe-Asia strategy, but this is assuming this is what Hawaiian is trying to do...
I guess I was thinking of the current Sydney, Auckland, presumably-upcoming Brisbane, and eventual Melbourne flights in nonstop terms. If that means pricier tickets, then, hey sure, HNL would make the ideal tranfer point if the ticket prices are better, (and the airport layover time doesn't drag out too long.)

NewfBC
Sep 8, 2013, 11:26 PM
Hawaiian could make HNL the KEF of the west! :)

Ron.

twoNeurons
Sep 9, 2013, 5:27 AM
Most of the attraction for Hawaii is that trips to Australia are Sooooo long and not everyone wants to be in a steel tube for 16 hours and a break at the half way point in Hawaii is a most welcome stop, especially if Hawaiian airlines offers a few days layover in between at no or minimal cost. :)

Practically fly right over Hawaii.
YVR - AKL (http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=YVR+-+AKL)

Heck, I'd even consider taking Hawaiian airlines to Japan as they fly direct to Fukuoka, Osaka, Sapporo (seasonal) and Tokyo (Haneda).
http://www.hawaiianair.com/PublishingImages/RouteMaps/2012-06.png
source (http://hawaiianairlines.homeandabroad.com/hawaiian/map.ha)

whatnext
Sep 9, 2013, 5:45 AM
Exactly. I have flown SYD-YVR many many times and the best flight was flying smack over HNL in the middle of the night all lit up.. Impressive sight!

As a frequent Australia-Canada traveller without a doubt there are soooo many options its crazy. AC seems to charge a premium for the "privilege" of flying non-stop. UA/DL/VA take quite a few passengers as well via SFO/LAX so to have HA in the mix would also shake things up. Perhaps Fiji Airways will have a stab at YVR again... who knows in this crazy world if aviation :-)

Having done both, I would pay for the privilege of not being forced off the airplane and made to troop through US customs in the middle of the night in HNL when trying to get to Australia.

Johnny Aussie
Sep 9, 2013, 7:11 AM
Having done both, I would pay for the privilege of not being forced off the airplane and made to troop through US customs in the middle of the night in HNL when trying to get to Australia.

Same. Did it once...never again! There are soooo many options via Asia. Via Tokyo, Seoul, Hong Kong, Taipei, Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou, Manila. Some of the Asian carriers offer fantastic deals Australia-Canada that some people aren't even aware of....

In the last five years I have only done SYD-YVR or AKL-YVR. Best routings available by far.

Right now, the HNL option would be a good one for layovers only. Until they sort out the deplane, customs, re-load parade... That would be a tough sell. However if the price is right, I am sure many would do it.

deasine
Sep 9, 2013, 7:26 AM
Right now, the HNL option would be a good one for layovers only. Until they sort out the deplane, customs, re-load parade... That would be a tough sell. However if the price is right, I am sure many would do it.

They can't. It's absolutely mandatory to pass US Customs even on an international transit. No airport in the US has the facilities for transiting passengers because you are legally allowed to leave the secured area as it's considered domestic territory even on an international flight (whereas you cannot leave the secured area of an international section of the airport in Canada and most other parts of the world).

trofirhen
Sep 9, 2013, 11:58 AM
Same. Did it once...never again!

In the last five years I have only done SYD-YVR or AKL-YVR. Best routings available by far.

Right now, the HNL option would be a good one for layovers only.
Seems as if you much prefer nonstops, as many people do. We have Syndey and Auckland, with Brisbane - Vancouver coming up on AC Dreamliner, now all we have to work on is a nonstop Melbourne flight!!

Porfiry
Sep 9, 2013, 9:01 PM
They can't. It's absolutely mandatory to pass US Customs even on an international transit. No airport in the US has the facilities for transiting passengers because you are legally allowed to leave the secured area as it's considered domestic territory even on an international flight (whereas you cannot leave the secured area of an international section of the airport in Canada and most other parts of the world).

I took the YVR-HNL-SYD flight on Air Canada several times about ten years ago (before they had the 777 direct), and they definitely let us off the plane to wander the terminal (you could also stay on the plane if you wanted). No customs clearance required. I remember this because I once misread the re-boarding time and nearly missed getting back on the plane.

Then again it's probable we pre-cleared US customs in Vancouver.

deasine
Sep 9, 2013, 9:41 PM
Then again it's probable we pre-cleared US customs in Vancouver.

Exactly so. That won't happen on the way back to Vancouver.

Johnny Aussie
Sep 9, 2013, 10:15 PM
Seems as if you much prefer nonstops, as many people do. We have Syndey and Auckland, with Brisbane - Vancouver coming up on AC Dreamliner, now all we have to work on is a nonstop Melbourne flight!!

It's more of a * Alliance thing mainly... Just a bonus they are the fastest routes.

As for YVR-BNE that is nothing in stone yet. Just speculation. Would be another decent option though.

Denscity
Sep 9, 2013, 11:03 PM
Very good point. If their planes had the range, you can guarantee that they'd fly from Calgary as well. I'm sure there's demand, especially given Calgary's corporate population.

...and colder weather.

whatnext
Sep 10, 2013, 7:01 AM
I took the YVR-HNL-SYD flight on Air Canada several times about ten years ago (before they had the 777 direct), and they definitely let us off the plane to wander the terminal (you could also stay on the plane if you wanted). No customs clearance required. I remember this because I once misread the re-boarding time and nearly missed getting back on the plane.

Then again it's probable we pre-cleared US customs in Vancouver.

Sure it wasn't pre 9/11?

twoNeurons
Sep 10, 2013, 9:29 PM
Sure it wasn't pre 9/11?

It's still the case. When you fly to the US from Vancouver you go through security and US customs at YVR. Flights from the transborder terminal are considered US domestic flights.

I have flown YVR-SFO-HNL and we landed at the domestic terminal at SFO. As was states, however, Australian airports wouldn't have that so the benefit is only one-way.

whatnext
Sep 11, 2013, 5:27 AM
It's still the case. When you fly to the US from Vancouver you go through security and US customs at YVR. Flights from the transborder terminal are considered US domestic flights.

I have flown YVR-SFO-HNL and we landed at the domestic terminal at SFO. As was states, however, Australian airports wouldn't have that so the benefit is only one-way.

But was it a same plane flight. I believe the difference was that AC's YVR-HNL-SYD was one plane carrying both US-bound and Int'l travellers. Despite preclearance eveyone continuing on had to go through the Immigration dog and pony show in HNL.

deasine
Sep 11, 2013, 6:10 AM
But was it a same plane flight. I believe the difference was that AC's YVR-HNL-SYD was one plane carrying both US-bound and Int'l travellers. Despite preclearance eveyone continuing on had to go through the Immigration dog and pony show in HNL.

If you go through YVR Preclearance you don't have to go through immigration period. The point of preclearance is to clear immigration AT YVR with US customs. Why would it make sense to go through immigration twice in the same country? However, there are US bound flights from YVR that don't have access to preclearance (as the borders are closed): example is CX flight to JFK.

Coming back, you will have to clear immigration at HNL as preclearance in SYD is not available.

trofirhen
Sep 11, 2013, 6:32 AM
It's still the case. When you fly to the US from Vancouver you go through security and US customs at YVR. Flights from the transborder terminal are considered US domestic flights.

I have flown YVR-SFO-HNL and we landed at the domestic terminal at SFO. As was states, however, Australian airports wouldn't have that so the benefit is only one-way.

But was it a same plane flight. I believe the difference was that AC's YVR-HNL-SYD was one plane carrying both US-bound and Int'l travellers. Despite preclearance eveyone continuing on had to go through the Immigration dog and pony show in HNL.

If you go through YVR Preclearance you don't have to go through immigration period. The point of preclearance is to clear immigration AT YVR with US customs. Why would it make sense to go through immigration twice in the same country? However, there are US bound flights from YVR that don't have access to preclearance (as the borders are closed): example is CX flight to JFK.

Coming back, you will have to clear immigration at HNL as preclearance in SYD is not available.

All of which point up the desirability of nonstop flights from YVR to Down Under. (Australia and NZ).
Two down, one planned, and one to work towards.

theKB
Sep 11, 2013, 9:03 PM
If you go through YVR Preclearance you don't have to go through immigration period. The point of preclearance is to clear immigration AT YVR with US customs. Why would it make sense to go through immigration twice in the same country? However, there are US bound flights from YVR that don't have access to preclearance (as the borders are closed): example is CX flight to JFK.

Coming back, you will have to clear immigration at HNL as preclearance in SYD is not available.

The YVR-HNL-SYD flight actually departed from the international terminal and required clearance in the US for all passengers during the fuel stop (as ridiculous as that sounds)

deasine
Sep 11, 2013, 9:20 PM
The YVR-HNL-SYD flight actually departed from the international terminal and required clearance in the US for all passengers during the fuel stop (as ridiculous as that sounds)

In other words, this means the the flight didn't have pre-clearance. I don't think it's ridiculous per say. The US BTW is not the only country that requires passengers to pass through customs even for transiting passengers, China is exactly the same.

Kapten
Sep 12, 2013, 3:53 AM
Any chance we'll see any of these markets open up from YVR with the 787?

New Dehli
São Paulo
Buenos Aires
Johannesburg
Tel Aviv

YVR Bruce
Sep 12, 2013, 5:16 AM
[QUOTE=Kapten;6263746]Any chance we'll see any of these markets open up from YVR with the 787?

Doubtful

YYZ will get J'burg before a YVR-New Delhi link.
I'd bet on YVR-IST before listed destinations

trofirhen
Sep 12, 2013, 6:54 AM
Any chance we'll see any of these markets open up from YVR with the 787?

New Dehli
São Paulo
Buenos Aires
Johannesburg
Tel Aviv

[QUOTE=Kapten;6263746]Any chance we'll see any of these markets open up from YVR with the 787?

Doubtful

YYZ will get J'burg before a YVR-New Delhi link.
I'd bet on YVR-IST before listed destinations

Toronto is within the 787 range to Jo'burg, might get it (and probably will).
There has been mention of a Vancouver > Sao Paulo route, of which a HK > Sao Paolo run, with a stopover in YVR, is only 306 miles longer than HK> Sao Paolo via Toronto (keeping in mind that Sao Paolo is more of a financial centre than Buenos Aires). Toronto will have YYZ - IST double-daily according to their press releases, but if there's the demand, Star Alliance Turkish might fly here, if the just-renewed bilateral permits it. Sure hope they do.

Vancouver to New Delhi seems justified according to the demographics, but again, Toronto seems to have that locked down, with Air India returning there, and planned AC 787 service Toronto-New Delhi.
The only planned 787 service out of YVR is Brisbane and Frankfurt (which we already have with both AC and LH, anyway).
I'd love to see YVR > IST, though. Great location for the Middle East, Persian Gulf, Eastern Mediterranean and East Africa.
(This according to the marketing dep't at YVR.)

trofirhen
Sep 12, 2013, 2:26 PM
CPA62 (http://www.airliners.net/profile/CPA62) http://cdn-www.airliners.net/graphics/ipflags/ca.gif From Canada, joined Jan 2012, 32 posts, RR: 0

A possible future route for Vancouver? Lan Chile reps departed Vancouver earlier this month. They are eyeing service to Vancouver on a routing SCL-LIM-YVR. A business study was completed on the possibility of this route,
the results are apparently very favourable in terms of cargo, business traffic (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5422413/#) and connection possibilities with One World.
Departure from Lima would be late evening for arrival into Vancouver morning next day. No word on when but it is apparently in the works? Don't think there is an agreement in place between Canada and Chile for such a route?

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5422413/

Johnny Aussie
Sep 12, 2013, 10:22 PM
The only planned 787 service out of YVR is Brisbane and Frankfurt (which we already have with both AC and LH, anyway).

Not necessarily true. These would be new routes but the 787 is planned to replace some current routes operated by 763s now.
FRA is not served by AC from YVR, yet. LH flies year-round and Condor and Air Transat fly seasonal YVR-FRA.
In addition, there are a couple of other Asian routes that are being looked at by AC. So there might be another Asian route ex YVR on the horizon as well.

trofirhen
Sep 12, 2013, 10:45 PM
Not necessarily true. These would be new routes but the 787 is planned to replace some current routes operated by 763s now.
FRA is not served by AC from YVR, yet. LH flies year-round and Condor and Air Transat fly seasonal YVR-FRA.
In addition, there are a couple of other Asian routes that are being looked at by AC. So there might be another Asian route ex YVR on the horizon as well.

>> checking the Air Canada route map, it shows Frankfurt among two other European destinations:Munich (which is seasonal as we know), and the other of course, LHR. I might assume that they list Frankurt as one of "their" destinations because of *Alliance/codeshare with LH (?)

>> More Asian routes, great!! but I wish they'd turn their interests elsewhere, too, like a route to Istanbul or such. Yield-factor problems, no doubt.
Oh, and do you think we might ever get Singapore back?

twoNeurons
Sep 13, 2013, 10:00 PM
But was it a same plane flight. I believe the difference was that AC's YVR-HNL-SYD was one plane carrying both US-bound and Int'l travellers. Despite preclearance eveyone continuing on had to go through the Immigration dog and pony show in HNL.

No, I had to switch planes. Went through security at YVR, which effectively means you're considered to be on US soil at YVR (for the purposes of immigration).

YVR-HNL-SYD sounds like it flew as an international flight. I'm not sure how long ago this was, but I bet if it was reinstated it'd go through transborder.

satishreddy
Sep 14, 2013, 5:33 AM
I took the Air Canada YVR-HNL-SYD flight several times during 2003-2006.

For the southbound flight, US pre-clearance was done in Vancouver. During the stop at HNL, everyone got off the plane. No customs and immigration in HNL.

For the northbound flight, everyone got off the plane in HNL and went through US customs. We then went upstairs and got back on the plane to Vancouver.

The stop in HNL was around midnight in both directions, so just as one was sleeping or about to fall asleep, one had to get up and get off the plane -a great inconvenience.

On one occasion in January 2005, the southbound flight had only a tech stop in HNL. Nobody got off the plane. The northbound flight was non-stop. The non-stop flight was heavenly - luckily I was in business class.

The above flights were with the B767-300 and the A340-300. Once Air Canada received the 777-200L, it flew that plane YVR-SYD non-stop, making it a much more pleasant experience and avoiding US customs. I flew the non-stop flight in 2011.

Valley_Refugee
Sep 14, 2013, 7:35 AM
A possible future route for Vancouver? Lan Chile reps departed Vancouver earlier this month. They are eyeing service to Vancouver on a routing SCL-LIM-YVR. A business study was completed on the possibility of this route,
the results are apparently very favourable in terms of cargo, business traffic and connection possibilities with One World.
Departure from Lima would be late evening for arrival into Vancouver morning next day. No word on when but it is apparently in the works? Don't think there is an agreement in place between Canada and Chile for such a route?

I was actually just about to muse on the possibility of a YVR-SCL route, given that both cities are huge mining centres. I work for a large national law firm in Vancouver and we have ties with firms in Chile as many of our mining clients have business there and vice versa. It's one route that might generate pretty decent business yield.

The Canada-Peru CTA allows for service between Lima and Vancouver. The Canada-Chile CTA restricts fifth freedoms from Chile to Canada as stopping over at Miami and New York, but that could either be changed or it could be LAN Peru operated.

ACT7
Sep 14, 2013, 8:11 PM
[QUOTE=YVR Bruce;6263817]

Toronto is within the 787 range to Jo'burg, might get it (and probably will).
There has been mention of a Vancouver > Sao Paulo route, of which a HK > Sao Paolo run, with a stopover in YVR, is only 306 miles longer than HK> Sao Paolo via Toronto (keeping in mind that Sao Paolo is more of a financial centre than Buenos Aires). Toronto will have YYZ - IST double-daily according to their press releases, but if there's the demand, Star Alliance Turkish might fly here, if the just-renewed bilateral permits it. Sure hope they do.

Vancouver to New Delhi seems justified according to the demographics, but again, Toronto seems to have that locked down, with Air India returning there, and planned AC 787 service Toronto-New Delhi.
The only planned 787 service out of YVR is Brisbane and Frankfurt (which we already have with both AC and LH, anyway).
I'd love to see YVR > IST, though. Great location for the Middle East, Persian Gulf, Eastern Mediterranean and East Africa.
(This according to the marketing dep't at YVR.)

Where did you hear about those two things? (the bolded part).