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moosejaw
May 30, 2014, 12:42 PM
No, they go through YYZ, plus it's mostly Eastern Canadians that go there, whereas Vancouverites and Albertans prefer California and Hawaii. It's largely a matter of proximity.

Hey hey not so fast sorry to be off topic
We got the first Earls on the US east coast that opened up here in Miami about two months ago. All the management staff hails from Vancouver.

Denscity
May 30, 2014, 6:19 PM
Miami's the bomb! So wish we had a non-stop from Vancouver.

trofirhen
May 30, 2014, 10:00 PM
Miami's the bomb! So wish we had a non-stop from Vancouver..
I doubt Air Canada would initiate a YVR-MIA nonstop. The initiative
would have to come from an American Airline. Maybe United?
Also, YVR marketing and route development told me that there isn't enough O/D traffic between the two to warrant a nonstop.

However, if included as a Chinese inbound flight to YVR, at which transferring passengers will wait in the visa-free neutral zone (believe! believe!) it could work. Onwards from Miami is mostly to South America, and it would be better if Miami served cities not in potential competion with YVR's new routes into South America, very possibly São Paolo; no threat for YVR-LIM, which, I was told, is the most certain bet, (even if we don't get GRU, closer via Toronto by about 200 miles. O the irony)

Hourglass
May 31, 2014, 12:15 AM
Miami's been tried before; iirc AA or maybe CP tried it and it didn't work. Surprising given AA's major presence in MIA.

You can bet AC or AA have run the numbers for YVR-MIA and concluded it doesn't make sense at the moment. Maybe it could work with Rouge...

Kapten
May 31, 2014, 12:17 AM
Miami's been tried before; iirc AA or maybe CP tried it and it didn't work. Surprising given AA's major presence in MIA.

You can bet AC or AA have run the numbers for YVR-MIA and concluded it doesn't make sense at the moment. Maybe it could work with Rouge...

How about FLL- or even MCO?!

SFUVancouver
May 31, 2014, 12:28 AM
Miami's been tried before; iirc AA or maybe CP tried it and it didn't work. Surprising given AA's major presence in MIA.


Wow, it's been more than a decade (13 years, actually) since Canadian Airlines was absorbed into Air Canada.

Anyone remember Greyhound Air? I took a flight with them once. It was just kind of weird. The staff, I swear, were wearing company hoodies and sweatpants and they had scripted jokes at the beginning of the flight.

casper
May 31, 2014, 1:27 AM
Miami's been tried before; iirc AA or maybe CP tried it and it didn't work. Surprising given AA's major presence in MIA.

You can bet AC or AA have run the numbers for YVR-MIA and concluded it doesn't make sense at the moment. Maybe it could work with Rouge...

The problem in the past is most narrow body aircraft (excluding the 757) does not have the range to do Vancouver- Miami non-strop. It has to be a 757 or 767 aircraft.

Now that Air Canada has these 767 in a Rogue configuration it has the correct aircraft for such a run. It they can make the case for YYZ to Hawaii to work, a YVR-Miami run looks more promising.

Kapten
May 31, 2014, 2:23 AM
The problem in the past is most narrow body aircraft (excluding the 757) does not have the range to do Vancouver- Miami non-strop. It has to be a 757 or 767 aircraft.

Now that Air Canada has these 767 in a Rogue configuration it has the correct aircraft for such a run. It they can make the case for YYZ to Hawaii to work, a YVR-Miami run looks more promising.

A319 & A320 also have the range to do YVR-MIA non-stop...

dubsH
May 31, 2014, 3:27 AM
Has anyone flown on AC's new 777 HD J-class? I'm planning on flying to and from Hong Kong later this year and I haven't decided between AC or CX. I flew AC to NRT on a 767 in J last year and it wasn't bad but it wasn't that great either.

Also it's kinda funny how everyone is calling AC Rouge as "rogue". :P

deasine
May 31, 2014, 5:40 AM
Has anyone flown on AC's new 777 HD J-class? I'm planning on flying to and from Hong Kong later this year and I haven't decided between AC or CX. I flew AC to NRT on a 767 in J last year and it wasn't bad but it wasn't that great either.

Also it's kinda funny how everyone is calling AC Rouge as "rogue". :P

I think CX is a given if the price is not a factor (and you aren't worried about meeting AC*G or anything).

whatnext
May 31, 2014, 2:40 PM
Miami's been tried before; iirc AA or maybe CP tried it and it didn't work. Surprising given AA's major presence in MIA.

You can bet AC or AA have run the numbers for YVR-MIA and concluded it doesn't make sense at the moment. Maybe it could work with Rouge...

AC used to fly YVR-MIA non-stop with an A319. I did it once, a very long flight on a small plane and due the distance it was weight restricted. Given that both destinations are primarily leisure I can't imagine it was very lucrative, probably why they stopped it.

Cage
May 31, 2014, 4:52 PM
RE YVR-MIA

AC/CP tried the flight in the first days of e merger. Yields on the flight stunk and loads were not much better.

While there may be O&D sufficient quantity, the major problem is both leisure run and that being at opposite ends of the world. The nonstop has to compete with one stop services on every flight to continental USA. The cherry on top is that one can drive down to SEA and get much cheaper fare.

However even out of SEA only AA has a single redeye departure to MIA. The flight is probably break even but contributes to higher utilization stats. The equip is a 752.

WS has tried YYC-MIA with mixed results. Don't know if the flight will be back next winter.

Gordon
May 31, 2014, 5:39 PM
Would An A319 with the dense Rogue configuration have the range for YVR MiA?

They could use a 763. I wonder how the 763s will use for Rogue because they are very hard on fuel?

trofirhen
May 31, 2014, 10:07 PM
Miami's been tried before; iirc AA or maybe CP tried it and it didn't work. Surprising given AA's major presence in MIA.

You can bet AC or AA have run the numbers for YVR-MIA and concluded it doesn't make sense at the moment. Maybe it could work with Rouge...

How about FLL- or even MCO?!

AC used to fly YVR-MIA non-stop with an A319. I did it once, a very long flight on a small plane and due the distance it was weight restricted. Given that both destinations are primarily leisure I can't imagine it was very lucrative, probably why they stopped it.

RE YVR-MIA

AC/CP tried the flight in the first days of e merger. Yields on the flight stunk and loads were not much better.

While there may be O&D sufficient quantity, the major problem is both leisure run and that being at opposite ends of the world. The nonstop has to compete with one stop services on every flight to continental USA. The cherry on top is that one can drive down to SEA and get much cheaper fare.

However even out of SEA only AA has a single redeye departure to MIA. The flight is probably break even but contributes to higher utilization stats. The equip is a 752.

WS has tried YYC-MIA with mixed results. Don't know if the flight will be back next winter.
YVR Marketing and Route Development informed me that although MCO is a big attraction (Disney World), and a desired route, it cannot work at present because it is still mainly an O/D route with little to anchor either end, hence the low yield.
I don't know if they dig Disney in China, but if the proposed easy-transfer facility at YVR goes through, this, or even MIA, might be rendered profitable. And voilà. Regular Miami or Orlando nonstops.

A sample look, if you'll scroll down ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_International_Airport

And that's just Orlando ........

Cage
Jun 1, 2014, 3:59 AM
Would An A319 with the dense Rogue configuration have the range for YVR MiA?

They could use a 763. I wonder how the 763s will use for Rogue because they are very hard on fuel?

As a result of the AC/CP merger 13 new A319s were acquired by AC. Only the new 319s have the range and MTOW to handle YVR-MIA. 8 have subsequently returned to lessors during the CCAA process (the lease costs were very high). Of the 5 remaining, 2 are required for YYT-LHR and 2 more have been transferred to Rouge. Given that only 3 aircraft can do the mission, I doubt they would be put onto YVR-MIA unless the route was highly profitable.

stiffdeadman
Jun 1, 2014, 6:55 AM
alaska runs a 737-800 seattle-ft.lauderdale nonstop as well. one stop cheaper connection out of bellingham.

casper
Jun 1, 2014, 7:13 PM
Wow, it's been more than a decade (13 years, actually) since Canadian Airlines was absorbed into Air Canada.

Anyone remember Greyhound Air? I took a flight with them once. It was just kind of weird. The staff, I swear, were wearing company hoodies and sweatpants and they had scripted jokes at the beginning of the flight.

Never had the chance to fly on one of those Kelowna Flightcraft 727 (the contractor that Greyhound used).

The weird commercial they had a pretty good indication it was not your typical airline.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8GP3PdvjB8

theKB
Jun 2, 2014, 12:14 AM
Never had the chance to fly on one of those Kelowna Flightcraft 727 (the contractor that Greyhound used).

The weird commercial they had a pretty good indication it was not your typical airline.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8GP3PdvjB8

I remember taking it once or twice, really did not like it.

SFUVancouver
Jun 2, 2014, 12:47 AM
Thanks for the link to the ad. I remember seeing that on tv and having a good laugh. It was funnier than the flight attendants' jokes.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 2, 2014, 7:30 AM
End of Aug and early Sept Sichuan adding a few extra flights to CTU via SHE.

5 weekly the last week of August up from the usual 3.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 2, 2014, 7:42 AM
According to these two articles, The Philippines and Canada have successfully renegotiated their air agreement allowing double daily flights from Canada to the Philippines for both sides.

Interesting comment that PAL has been "eager" for the conclusion of Canada-Philippine bilaterals in order to commence Manila-New York via Vancouver.

Both articles mention PAL is planning 14 flights per week to YVR with some continuing on to YYZ and some to NYC.

I actually doubt they would use all of their allotments all at one go. There appears to speculation of AC starting MNL as well, but I will leave that only as speculative.

Seems like a lot of capacity. I realise that PAL couldn't make MNL-YYZ nonstop work so perhaps all flights may go via YVR if this all happens. Interesting articles nevertheless.

I guess we will have to wait and see what transpires over the next few months...

http://www.philippineflightnetwork.com/2014/05/philippine-airlines-increase-flights-to-canada.html

http://www.philippineflightnetwork.com/2014/05/philippine-airlines-canada-flights.html

trofirhen
Jun 2, 2014, 9:07 AM
Great news; thanks Johnny! I wish a European Airline, Lufthansa, Turkish, whatever, would start one or two fifth-freedom incursions into Vancouver, too, and extend YVR's reach into Europe

twoNeurons
Jun 2, 2014, 5:09 PM
All good except ANA. That route is still going to be a 763 for the foreseeable future.

Which is one reason we decided JAL over ANA for our next trip to Japan.

Zassk
Jun 2, 2014, 5:19 PM
Quick note about the outlet mall. No pics because I was caught offguard while driving over the Arthur Laing Bridge, but I was surprised to see lots of progress on the mall. The steel frame is up for the whole section closest to (parallel to) the North Arm of the river. The foundations are all in place for the rest of it. I'm not totally clear on what's being built first, but this may be just a first phase rather than the entire mall. Seems like the section closest to Templeton is going up right now. I thought the overall project would stretch all the way to the Arthur Laing bridge, but the current layout only goes halfway.

deasine
Jun 2, 2014, 6:22 PM
There appears to speculation of AC starting MNL as well, but I will leave that only as speculative.

I do not see AC being able to operate in this market competitively. The Philippines is a low yield market, and any high yield traffic there is would be highly competitive. AC does not also have the market awareness nor the premium brand compared to its Asian competitors. Unless AC will go Rouge over this route, I do not think AC will be do well on this one.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 3, 2014, 6:20 AM
I do not see AC being able to operate in this market competitively. The Philippines is a low yield market, and any high yield traffic there is would be highly competitive. AC does not also have the market awareness nor the premium brand compared to its Asian competitors. Unless AC will go Rouge over this route, I do not think AC will be do well on this one.

I agree. I would be very surprised if this route (either YVR-MNL or YYZ-MNL) would ever be launched by AC. There are plenty of other more lucrative routes the 777s/787s can be put on. I would guess YVR/YYZ-MNL would have to wait for the 789 anyway.

Also, I don't see any other market in Canada that could support a route to Manila either. Despite what many Winnipeggers might think. The two largest Filipino VFR markets by far in Canada are YYZ and YVR and even then I doubt PAL is rolling in huge profits on the Canadian routes.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 4, 2014, 8:25 PM
But with the winter scheds all showing all the above mentioned additional rouge flying + bigger birds on AC to LHR, HKG, PVG and NRT (however, still not showing 787 yet) for the entire winter next year + the new ANA flights to HND + bigger birds on LH to FRA + EVA Air continuing with 4 weekly year-round + DL new flights to SEA + Sunwing additional flying + I expect more to come anyway.... did I miss anything?

And here is another.

Effective 26 October - 26 March AC is replacing the daily 77L with a 77W on the YVR-SYD route. That is a huge increase in seats.

http://airlineroute.net/2014/06/04/ac-syd-w14/

But I didn't think the 77W had the legs to do this westbound nonstop without weight restrictions.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 5, 2014, 7:44 AM
First flight departs at 0630 on an E75.

4 daily - 3 CR9s and 1 E75.

And a silence falls over YVR ;-)

trofirhen
Jun 5, 2014, 2:22 PM
First flight departs at 0630 on an E75.

4 daily - 3 CR9s and 1 E75.

And a silence falls over YVR ;-)
Interestingly (in Wikipedia, anyway), SEA-TAC's number one transborder destination is Vancouver.
YVR's number one transborder destination, apparently, is LAX.
Differences in cosmopolitanism, here.

Valley_Refugee
Jun 5, 2014, 4:00 PM
Interestingly (in Wikipedia, anyway), SEA-TAC's number one transborder destination is Vancouver.
YVR's number one transborder destination, apparently, is LAX.
Differences in cosmopolitanism, here.

How is this a difference in cosmopolitanism? Where else would SEA's number one transborder come from? Toronto? Calgary? No.

deasine
Jun 5, 2014, 4:55 PM
And here is another.

Effective 26 October - 26 March AC is replacing the daily 77L with a 77W on the YVR-SYD route. That is a huge increase in seats.

http://airlineroute.net/2014/06/04/ac-syd-w14/

But I didn't think the 77W had the legs to do this westbound nonstop without weight restrictions.

I didn't think it was possible either. Oh those 777 HDs seem even more probable now!

On a more serious matter, I think it would be worth considering operating some three-class configuration planes to Australia with W Cabins. Australia, for the most part, generally has a high average expenditure on travel and W Cabins to Australia do pretty well for most carriers.

PaperTiger
Jun 5, 2014, 4:58 PM
How is this a difference in cosmopolitanism? Where else would SEA's number one transborder come from? Toronto? Calgary? No.
... and I suspect if you looked at SEA - LAX traffic it would exceed SEA-YVR as well.

Denscity
Jun 5, 2014, 7:10 PM
I think Trof is just saying that with Seattle's number one transborder destination is Vancouver then it should be the same vice-versa. But no Vancouver's is Los Angeles.

PaperTiger
Jun 5, 2014, 7:56 PM
I think Trof is just saying that with Seattle's number one transborder destination is Vancouver then it should be the same vice-versa. But no Vancouver's is Los Angeles.


Yes, but that's just because Canada doesn't have a Los Angeles, if you get what I'm saying.

It speaks more to the draw of LA than to the links between our two cities. If you included other forms of transportation then I’d wager that Seattle -Vancouver Link would be the largest OD pairing for both.

As it is I think more Seattleites and Vancouverites fly to LA than fly to either city.

Denscity
Jun 5, 2014, 8:16 PM
^^^ Hmm you could be right. I would also mention the film industry for providing quite a bit of traffic between LAX and YVR.

s211
Jun 5, 2014, 8:51 PM
Could it be cruise ship passengers from the US connecting through Seattle on the way to Vancouver?

trofirhen
Jun 5, 2014, 9:55 PM
I think Trof is just saying that with Seattle's number one transborder destination is Vancouver then it should be the same vice-versa. But no Vancouver's is Los Angeles.
Thank you. That's rather it.
A little dated perhaps, but still indicative.
In particular, look at destinations # 2, 7, and 10.

Busiest international routes from Seattle/Tacoma (2012–13)[40] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle%E2%80%93Tacoma_International_Airport#cite_note-internationalreport-40) Rank City Passengers Carriers 1 Narita International Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narita_International_Airport) 409,119 All Nippon Airways, Delta, United 2 Vancouver International Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouver_International_Airport) 382,818 Air Canada, Alaska 3 Amsterdam Airport Schiphol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam_Airport_Schiphol) 248,356 Delta 4 Incheon International Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incheon_International_Airport) 248,198 Asiana, Korean Air 5 London Heathrow Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Heathrow_Airport) 195,951 British Airways 6 Beijing Capital International Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing_Capital_International_Airport) 195,625 Delta, Hainan 7 Victoria International Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_International_Airport) 168,031 Alaska 8 Frankfurt Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_Airport) 165,265 Condor, Lufthansa 9 Dubai International Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai_International_Airport) 160,933 Emirates 10 Calgary International Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calgary_International_Airport) 148,956 Air Canada, Alaska

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle%E2%80%93Tacoma_International_Airport

Canadian74
Jun 5, 2014, 9:59 PM
What's LAX busiest transborder route then?

PaperTiger
Jun 5, 2014, 10:14 PM
What's LAX busiest transborder route then?

According to Wikipedia :

#7 Vancouver, Canada 753,972 Increase 1.3%

Only Canadian City in their top 10.

nname
Jun 5, 2014, 10:14 PM
What's LAX busiest transborder route then?

For international:

1. London (Heathrow) 1,339,445
2. Tokyo (Narita) 1,180,227
3. Sydney 1,067,179
4. Seoul (Incheon) 998,932
5. Taipei (Taoyuan) 881,530
6. Mexico City 769,068
7. Vancouver 753,972
8. Guadalajara 740,325
9. Paris (Charles de Gaulle) 579,311
10. Toronto (Pearson) 560,059

PaperTiger
Jun 5, 2014, 10:16 PM
Oops, there's Toronto at #10.

trofirhen
Jun 5, 2014, 10:19 PM
double post (see above)

nname
Jun 5, 2014, 10:23 PM
Oops, there's Toronto at #10.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h4baBEi0iA

PaperTiger
Jun 5, 2014, 10:23 PM
And I was right, LAX is SEA's largest domestic. More than double the pax to YVR.

SEA - LAX is listed at 880,000. YVR-LAX is 753,000. SEA-YVR 382,000

I think when it comes to Air travel the "transborder" designation is misleading.

PaperTiger
Jun 5, 2014, 10:43 PM
Does anyone know the number of passengers between YVR and YYZ or YYC? Just curious to see how they compare to LAX.

trofirhen
Jun 5, 2014, 10:48 PM
And I was right, LAX is SEA's largest domestic. More than double the pax to YVR.

SEA - LAX is listed at 880,000. YVR-LAX is 753,000. SEA-YVR 382,000

I think when it comes to Air travel the "transborder" designation is misleading.
Perhaps it is misleading, but YVR-LAX lags only a certain degree behind SEA-LAX .... still a big market.

I wonder what YVR-YYZ is? Anybody know? Surely that would be YVR's busiest domestic route.

Denscity
Jun 5, 2014, 10:48 PM
But as far as transborder is LAX's Vancouver? International #7 is Vancouver but crossing one border is it Vancouver or more likely somewhere in Mexico?

PaperTiger
Jun 5, 2014, 11:01 PM
But as far as transborder is LAX's Vancouver? International #7 is Vancouver but crossing one border is it Vancouver or more likely somewhere in Mexico?

Mexico city has only 16,000 more PAX than YVR. 769,000 v 753,000

Canadian74
Jun 6, 2014, 4:15 PM
YVR-YYZ would be easily over 1 million.

Valley_Refugee
Jun 6, 2014, 5:44 PM
YVR-YYZ would be easily over 1 million.

I recall a story on anna.aero a few years ago showing YVR-YYZ being Canada's busiest domestic route in terms of seats per week (YYZ-YUL for number of flights). Could not find updated (non-Wikipedia) stats on a cursory search.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 8, 2014, 1:11 AM
Widebodies on LAX!

Originally rouge was to drop YVR-LAX to 3 daily 319s (from 4) effective late Oct.

A further revision has the early flight becoming a daily 763 effective 28 November right through the entire winter sched through April.

Further to my last rouge post...

This will boost YVR-LAX seats up over 45% compared to last winter.

With the increase in seats to LAX (+45%), SFO (+40%), LAS (+ 100%), HNL (+55%), OGG (+55%), and the new route to PHX (I hear PSP also in the works) this is bordering on flooding new capacity transborder. Perhaps a big smack at Westjet.

Genauso
Jun 8, 2014, 2:38 AM
Cool observation JohnnyAussie. I would never have noticed that change in capacity, never mind guess She Canada's intentions.

I know the Philippines were recently mentioned, so this might be redundant but an announcement was officially made on the Canadian side. http://www.straight.com/life/661081/air-transport-deal-likely-means-more-flights-between-canada-and-philippines

TRANSPORT MINISTER LISA Raitt has announced a new agreement that should increase air travel between Canada and the Philippines.


There were 430,000 one-way passenger trips between the two countries last year, which is up 22.5 percent since 2008.

According to a federal government announcement, the expanded Canada-Philippines Air Transport Agreement offers airlines "greater flexibility" to use flights of other countries' airlines through code-sharing and for airlines to alter prices in response to consumer demand.

Raitt made the announcement in Mississauga with Sen. Tobias Enverga, who's the first member of Canada's upper chamber of Philippine descent.

There were 662,605 Canadian residents who self-identified as being of Philippine descent in the 2011 census, according to Statistics Canada.

The Philippines was the largest source of immigrants to Canada between 2006 and 2011.

The 152,300 arrivals from the Philippines accounted for 13.1 percent of all immigrants to Canada over that period.

The next largest source country over that five-year period was China, where 122,100 immigrants came from, followed closely by India at 121,400.

The United States was fourth, followed by Pakistan, the United Kingdom, Iran, South Korea, Colombia, and Mexico.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 8, 2014, 2:56 AM
Cool observation JohnnyAussie. I would never have noticed that change in capacity, never mind guess She Canada's intentions.

I know the Philippines were recently mentioned, so this might be redundant but an announcement was officially made on the Canadian side. http://www.straight.com/life/661081/air-transport-deal-likely-means-more-flights-between-canada-and-philippines

Not redundant at all. Just shows Canada is at least taking an interest in talking about the ties between the two countries from a Canadian perspective.

Also interesting to note the three biggest sources of immigration to Canada already have huge populations in the Vancouver area which I am sure will increase flights to Asia further. Like Rovinescu said AC's push will now be mainly to Asia over the next 10 years as there was the large European expansion this year mainly from YYZ and YUL.

I think the biggest indication in an increase in flights to YVR is the comment by the president of PAL stating they were anxious to get this resolved so they could add flights from MNL to NYC via YVR.

Now they just require CTA approval and then I expect an announcement will be imminent. Looking at a late fall 2014 start.

trofirhen
Jun 8, 2014, 4:08 PM
Wonderful to see YVR going great guns on increasing Asia-Pacific traffic. But will there ever be any more destinations anywhere else?
Europe, (faint possibility of South America), Miami, India, whatever? I'm all for what's happening, for sure, but it seems a bit uneven in the overall route develpment development scheme (though that's natural to a large degree, given YVR's location). Still ....

Johnny Aussie
Jun 8, 2014, 10:33 PM
^ Ah yes

If you look at the demographics of YVR and the continuing number of immigrants from Asia (East Asia, South-East Asia, South Asia) compared to sources from the rest of the world, that is where the compass is pointed. West from YVR.

However, compared to any other city in North America of similar size and you will not find one city with better air service to Europe already. In fact, unless the city is one of the megaplexes (say > 5 million) or one of the big American carrier super hubs, you will not find better service to Europe from anywhere else in North America.

Kapten
Jun 9, 2014, 12:36 AM
^ Ah yes

If you look at the demographics of YVR and the continuing number of immigrants from Asia (East Asia, South-East Asia, South Asia) compared to sources from the rest of the world, that is where the compass is pointed. West from YVR.

However, compared to any other city in North America of similar size and you will not find one city with better air service to Europe already. In fact, unless the city is one of the megaplexes (say > 5 million) or one of the big American carrier super hubs, you will not find better service to Europe from anywhere else in North America.

Actually, there's a non-megaplex, non-hub city in North America with better European Service: Boston.

Here's a summary of *Vancouver's* (YVR) European service

Year Round Service:
London Heathrow, Frankfurt, Amsterdam (3 cities total)

Seasonal Service:
London Gatwick, Glasgow, Manchester, Paris-DeGaulle, Zurich, Reykjavik, Munich (7 cities total).

Here's the Boston summary:

Year Round Service:
Dublin, Shannon, Parid-DeGaulle, Rome-Fiumicino, London Gatwick, Frankfurt, Munich, Manchester, Lisbon, London Heathrow, Reykjavik, Zurich, Istanbul (13 cities total)

Seasonal Service:
Madrid (1 total)

One could reasonably argue that service from Orlando to/from Europe surpasses YVR's (year-round non-stop service to Oslo, London-Gatwick, Frankfurt, Manchester, & Dublin plus seasonal service to Belfast, Birmingham, Cardiff, London-Stansted). Orlando-Sanford has additional year-round service to Birmingham, London-Gatwick, Manchester, & Amsterdam plus seasonal service to East Midlands, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Reykjavik, & Manchester. So the two Orlando airports, which serve a population roughly equal to Metro Vancouver's population, offer service to 7 European cities year-round and 8 European airports seasonally.

I really think that YVR needs to work on attracting additional European service, especially in the year-round category. It would be great to have year-round service to:
Paris
Oslo (via Norwegian Air Shuttle)
Rome or Milan
Zurich
Madrid
Copenhagen
Dublin

trofirhen
Jun 9, 2014, 2:21 AM
delete

trofirhen
Jun 9, 2014, 2:29 AM
..................
I really think that YVR needs to work on attracting additional European service, especially in the year-round category. It would be great to have year-round service to:
Paris
Oslo (via Norwegian Air Shuttle)
Rome or Milan
Zurich
Madrid
Copenhagen
Dublin
Exactly. Precisely. The only question being the yield factor on these routes.
Whew, love to see the Nowegian 787 to Oslo, plus all the others !!
(Munich might fit in there sowhere, too, perhaps.)

SFUVancouver
Jun 9, 2014, 2:38 AM
Pretty sure I saw JAL's 787 depart this afternoon. Very sharp looking plane and noticeably more quiet that a 777.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 9, 2014, 2:44 AM
Actually, there's a non-megaplex, non-hub city in North America with better European Service: Boston.

Here's a summary of *Vancouver's* (YVR) European service

Year Round Service:
London Heathrow, Frankfurt, Amsterdam (3 cities total)

Seasonal Service:
London Gatwick, Glasgow, Manchester, Paris-DeGaulle, Zurich, Reykjavik (6 cities total).

Here's the Boston summary:

Year Round Service:
Dublin, Shannon, Parid-DeGaulle, Rome-Fiumicino, London Gatwick, Frankfurt, Munich, Manchester, Lisbon, London Heathrow, Reykjavik, Zurich, Istanbul (13 cities total)

Seasonal Service:
Madrid (1 total)

One could reasonably argue that service from Orlando to/from Europe surpasses YVR's (year-round non-stop service to Oslo, London-Gatwick, Frankfurt, Manchester, & Dublin plus seasonal service to Belfast, Birmingham, Cardiff, London-Stansted). Orlando-Sanford has additional year-round service to Birmingham, London-Gatwick, Manchester, & Amsterdam plus seasonal service to East Midlands, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Reykjavik, & Manchester. So the two Orlando airports, which serve a population roughly equal to Metro Vancouver's population, offer service to 7 European cities year-round and 8 European airports seasonally.

I really think that YVR needs to work on attracting additional European service, especially in the year-round category. It would be great to have year-round service to:
Paris
Oslo (via Norwegian Air Shuttle)
Rome or Milan
Zurich
Madrid
Copenhagen
Dublin

Funny I was going to specifically mention Orlando, but I suppose anybody shouldn't wonder why Orlando does have this much service?

I thought that was obvious.

Boston is the 6th largest CMA in the USA with a population of almost 8 million..... so like I said....

OK, outside Orlando and all other massive metroplex or large super hub.

Let's be realistic....

I stand by my original comment.

trofirhen
Jun 9, 2014, 2:50 AM
Funny I was going to specifically mention Orlando, but I suppose anybody shouldn't wonder why Orlando does have this much service?

I thought that was obvious.

Boston is the 6th largest CMA in the USA with a population of almost 8 million..... so like I said....

OK, outside Orlando and all other massive metroplex or large super hub.

Let's be realistic....

I stand by my original comment.
Where would Seattle fit here? A bit bigger than Vancouver, more business class perhaps, but they have KEF, LHR, AMS, CDG, FRA year round, not to mention DBX.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 9, 2014, 2:52 AM
Where would Seattle fit here? A bit bigger than Vancouver, more business class perhaps, but they have KEF, LHR, AMS, CDG, FRA year round, not to mention DBX.

Seattle CSA is also close to double Vancouver's population.

A perfect comparison is Portland... A city of roughly the same population as Vancouver, although much larger if you include it's total CSA.

It has one European route that being Amsterdam. LH even pulled out a few years ago.

trofirhen
Jun 9, 2014, 3:52 AM
Seattle CSA is also close to double Vancouver's population.

A perfect comparison is Portland... A city of roughly the same population as Vancouver, although much larger if you include it's total CSA.

It has one European route that being Amsterdam. LH even pulled out a few years ago.
All this is factual, I admit, but I also think it's important to consider that Vancouver is the pincipal Western city - and the third largest - of Canada itself.
Portland is a regional American city, along the lines of Kansas City, Cleveland, and such.
These do not have a lot of, if any, European connections, and are hubbed through Chicago or whatever the case may be.
Vancouver is already a destiation for numerous Chinese and Pacific airlines (Air New Zealand for example) and I still agree with Kapten that it needs just a few more European connections; Paris, Oslo (oil industry) and Rome for example. I'm sorry but I cannot agree that Vancouver has as good European connections of any city its size.
In a sense, perhaps yes, but given that it's Canada's third city, I think it assumes a more important world role than Portland, Kansas City, or Cleveland.

Kapten
Jun 9, 2014, 4:10 AM
Funny I was going to specifically mention Orlando, but I suppose anybody shouldn't wonder why Orlando does have this much service?

I thought that was obvious.

Boston is the 6th largest CMA in the USA with a population of almost 8 million..... so like I said....

OK, outside Orlando and all other massive metroplex or large super hub.

Let's be realistic....

I stand by my original comment.

The Boston CMA has almost eight million residents but the core population of Boston and its suburban counties (defined by the US government as the "Standard Metropolitan Statistical Area" or SMSA) is just 4.6 million. To get to the 7.9 million number you would need to add the populations of nearby states (RI), and additional counties in NH, MA, and CT. Statscan doest define population areas in the exact same way, but it would be analogous to combining all of the municipalities in the GVRD with those in the Fraser Valley and (possibly) the Sunshine Coast, some of the gulf islands, and parts of Vancouver Island (anywhere where someone could conceivably commute to work in Vancouver).

Montreal has a CMA of about 3.8 million. It's an air-Canada hub, but it's definitely not a "large super hub". Air Canada offers year-round service to 5 European cities; 2 additional cities are served year-round by Star Alliance codeshare partners (Munich and Zurich). Add in Amsterdam service on KLM, and the number of year-round non-stop European destinations from Montreal (8) is more than double the number from Vancouver (3).

trofirhen
Jun 9, 2014, 4:30 AM
The Boston CMA has almost eight million residents but the core population of Boston and its suburban counties (defined by the US government as the "Standard Metropolitan Statistical Area" or SMSA) is just 4.6 million. To get to the 7.9 million number you would need to add the populations of nearby states (RI), and additional counties in NH, MA, and CT. Statscan doest define population areas in the exact same way, but it would be analogous to combining all of the municipalities in the GVRD with those in the Fraser Valley and (possibly) the Sunshine Coast, some of the gulf islands, and parts of Vancouver Island (anywhere where someone could conceivably commute to work in Vancouver).

Montreal has a CMA of about 3.8 million. It's an air-Canada hub, but it's definitely not a "large super hub". Air Canada offers year-round service to 5 European cities; 2 additional cities are served year-round by Star Alliance codeshare partners (Munich and Zurich). Add in Amsterdam service on KLM, and the number of year-round non-stop European destinations from Montreal (8) is more than double the number from Vancouver (3).
Not to mention Doha Qatar, Casablanca, Algiers, Tunis, and Istanbul

spaceprobe
Jun 9, 2014, 5:29 AM
Not to mention Doha Qatar, Casablanca, Algiers, Tunis, and Istanbul

yes, Vancouver needs more. Even Calgary has the same number of year round direct service to Europe!

Johnny Aussie
Jun 9, 2014, 5:52 AM
The Boston CMA has almost eight million residents but the core population of Boston and its suburban counties (defined by the US government as the "Standard Metropolitan Statistical Area" or SMSA) is just 4.6 million. To get to the 7.9 million number you would need to add the populations of nearby states (RI), and additional counties in NH, MA, and CT. Statscan doest define population areas in the exact same way, but it would be analogous to combining all of the municipalities in the GVRD with those in the Fraser Valley and (possibly) the Sunshine Coast, some of the gulf islands, and parts of Vancouver Island (anywhere where someone could conceivably commute to work in Vancouver).

Montreal has a CMA of about 3.8 million. It's an air-Canada hub, but it's definitely not a "large super hub". Air Canada offers year-round service to 5 European cities; 2 additional cities are served year-round by Star Alliance codeshare partners (Munich and Zurich). Add in Amsterdam service on KLM, and the number of year-round non-stop European destinations from Montreal (8) is more than double the number from Vancouver (3).

Yes and BOS population based on your example is still double YVR, its the principal airport for New England hence its much larger population and catchment area and the fact that its on the east coast as well. And YUL.. 1.3 million more people, eastern location and a hub for AC.... Turning the tables around YVR is a "Pacific" city on the west coast with a much higher Asian population and growing. And YVR has how many nonstop destinations to Asia compared to YUL? All these arguments are exactly what I've been saying.

It is VERY unlikely YVR will attract many more European flights. Perhaps CDG one day, MUC year round and maybe KEF year round. Madrid, Oslo, Rome --->Not gonna happen.

It's fine to have wishful thinking but the reality is it isn't going to happen.

And yes somebody mentioned YYC again same deal amazing service for a city of around 1.3 million huh? Compared to Edmonton which is similar size but cannot seem to maintain one daily year round flight to Europe. AC has made LHR seasonal and only recently Icelandair has come on board. Maybe that will change but for now thats it.

Gordon
Jun 9, 2014, 8:05 PM
How about CDG as a seasonal Rouge destination?

trofirhen
Jun 9, 2014, 8:31 PM
How about CDG as a seasonal Rouge destination?
That would be a good start, at least.

Kapten
Jun 9, 2014, 8:53 PM
Yes and BOS population based on your example is still double YVR, its the principal airport for New England hence its much larger population and catchment area and the fact that its on the east coast as well. And YUL.. 1.3 million more people, eastern location and a hub for AC.... Turning the tables around YVR is a "Pacific" city on the west coast with a much higher Asian population and growing. And YVR has how many nonstop destinations to Asia compared to YUL? All these arguments are exactly what I've been saying.

It is VERY unlikely YVR will attract many more European flights. Perhaps CDG one day, MUC year round and maybe KEF year round. Madrid, Oslo, Rome --->Not gonna happen.

It's fine to have wishful thinking but the reality is it isn't going to happen.

And yes somebody mentioned YYC again same deal amazing service for a city of around 1.3 million huh? Compared to Edmonton which is similar size but cannot seem to maintain one daily year round flight to Europe. AC has made LHR seasonal and only recently Icelandair has come on board. Maybe that will change but for now thats it.

I think it's great that YVR has as much Asian service as it does, and I would like to see some additional destinations added (Singapore, Vietnam, and possibly KL).

But I still think that Vancouver would be a more competitive city business-wise with more European non-stop flights. Our city has a large Asian demographic, but that does not preclude persons of Asian descent needing to travel to Europe for work or pleasure (or even for family visits, as some Indo-Canadians have family in UK etc.). :)

Johnny Aussie
Jun 9, 2014, 9:54 PM
How about CDG as a seasonal Rouge destination?

I think you hit the nail on the head...

If YVR were to get another route to CDG (and most likely this would be seasonal as well) I would expect it to be rouge. Perfect market for that flight a few times a week as it would go up against Transat. AC is (was) planning on adding its own metal to FRA as well.

People forget that YVR is a very seasonal market. During the summer months there is a huge amount of capacity to Europe, but in the winter the traffic just falls off immensely. Of course it would be great to have more year-round direct service.

BUT... YVR is just not big enough to warrant much more than it already has.

Even KL to AMS drops to 5 weekly in the winter and LH drops to 5-6 weekly for a few weeks over the dead of winter. Next winter capacity will increase though because of larger aircraft plying the AC to LHR and LH to FRA routes for the entire winter scheds.

And to sum up the rest of Western Canada:
AC YYC to LHR drops to a 763 and in fact only 6 weekly for a few weeks after the Christmas period, LH pulled out of YYC a couple of years ago, KL drops to 6 weekly and BA tends to use the smaller of its fleet on YYC-LHR (although that's going up to a 788 soon). Even charters to MAN have fallen off. At the peak, there used to be 6 weekly "ski" charters from the UK but even that is going to drop to only 1 weekly to LGW on Transat this upcoming winter (first time in years there is only one weekly flight on that route). And YEG, well as mentioned, AC pulled winter service to LHR (was only 3 weekly anyway), now we wait and see what Icelandair does.

Hourglass
Jun 10, 2014, 1:45 AM
I think it's great that YVR has as much Asian service as it does, and I would like to see some additional destinations added (Singapore, Vietnam, and possibly KL).

None of those destinations are currently economically viable, with the possible exception of Singapore. However, when SQ was flying to YVR. it was via Seoul, and I doubt a nonstop would work.

My view is that more Chinese cities will be on the cards along with Melbourne and/or Brisbane.

trofirhen
Jun 10, 2014, 5:48 AM
None of those destinations are currently economically viable, with the possible exception of Singapore. However, when SQ was flying to YVR. it was via Seoul, and I doubt a nonstop would work.

My view is that more Chinese cities will be on the cards along with Melbourne and/or Brisbane.
I'd love to see Melbourne and Brisbane!! We'd have four destinations down under, and be Canada's hub for the entire Pacific, North and South.

Valley_Refugee
Jun 10, 2014, 6:08 PM
Yes and BOS population based on your example is still double YVR, its the principal airport for New England hence its much larger population and catchment area and the fact that its on the east coast as well. And YUL.. 1.3 million more people, eastern location and a hub for AC.... Turning the tables around YVR is a "Pacific" city on the west coast with a much higher Asian population and growing. And YVR has how many nonstop destinations to Asia compared to YUL? All these arguments are exactly what I've been saying.

It is VERY unlikely YVR will attract many more European flights. Perhaps CDG one day, MUC year round and maybe KEF year round. Madrid, Oslo, Rome --->Not gonna happen.

It's fine to have wishful thinking but the reality is it isn't going to happen.

And yes somebody mentioned YYC again same deal amazing service for a city of around 1.3 million huh? Compared to Edmonton which is similar size but cannot seem to maintain one daily year round flight to Europe. AC has made LHR seasonal and only recently Icelandair has come on board. Maybe that will change but for now thats it.

Give up, Johnny. It's a losing battle on this thread...:brickwall:

Johnny Aussie
Jun 10, 2014, 10:44 PM
Give up, Johnny. It's a losing battle on this thread...:brickwall:

Ha ha! Will never give up!

Denscity
Jun 11, 2014, 4:44 AM
Does anyone ever watch Border Security on National Geographic? Tons of YVR footage inside and out.

giallo
Jun 11, 2014, 8:18 AM
^ I love that show.

connect2source
Jun 11, 2014, 1:48 PM
Does anyone ever watch Border Security on National Geographic? Tons of YVR footage inside and out.

One of my best friends is the Director of the show, love it!!! As a single male, I travel alone, often overseas and have been subjected to 'secondary inspection' a couple of times, so I find watching the show a guilty pleasure.

The aerials of YVR are amazing, shots and angles never seen before!

YYCguys
Jun 11, 2014, 1:53 PM
I love that show too. Glad to know there's others out there that do as well. None of my friends have even heard of it. I had to go through secondary inspection the other day in YVR and wondered where some of the officers we see on the show were.

I noticed, on an episode last night, that there some scenes from Toronto Pearson! I didn't know they filmed out there as well!

Denscity
Jun 11, 2014, 3:28 PM
Ya I've seen footage of YVR, Pearson, Port of Vancouver, Peace Arch border crossing, and one of the Ontario borders as well. Great show!

Gordon
Jun 11, 2014, 6:28 PM
When the new Pier A\B gates open soon will Gates B12,13&14 still remain is use, because i suspect those gates need to be upgrades as well?

SFUVancouver
Jun 11, 2014, 7:16 PM
I took a flight to Edmonton recently from the old part of B Pier. It was like stepping into a time machine back to Expo-era Vancouver.

YYCguys
Jun 11, 2014, 7:40 PM
I took a flight to Edmonton recently from the old part of B Pier. It was like stepping into a time machine back to Expo-era Vancouver.

:haha:

deasine
Jun 12, 2014, 12:41 AM
Posted by YVR:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/10408957_681974961840301_3474889957499275622_n.jpg

zahav
Jun 12, 2014, 6:27 AM
Star Alliance represent!

connect2source
Jun 12, 2014, 4:21 PM
Great shot to also mark the 20th anniversary of the first flight of the 777 on June 12, 1994.

Love the new Air New Zealand livery as well!!

excel
Jun 12, 2014, 10:55 PM
Saw a Beijing Capital Airlines A320 VIP configuration at the Shell on the south side. They are a subsidiary company of Hainan Airlines...

teriyaki
Jun 12, 2014, 11:27 PM
Saw a Beijing Capital Airlines A320 VIP configuration at the Shell on the south side. They are a subsidiary company of Hainan Airlines...

Some VIP guests checking out Vancouver? An Airbus A320 can't make the hop without a fuel stop or two along the way from China. Wonder how it made it over.

jlousa
Jun 13, 2014, 1:12 AM
There are definitely some VIPs from China visiting right now. That is all I can say but I'm sure info will leak.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 13, 2014, 1:23 AM
Flew Singapore Airlines yesterday and actually watched two full length Punjabi movies on the flight.

Checked out the extensive (as always) new release movie listings and saw 2 movies where the plots were about going to/living in Canada. Was actually a movie with a sequel. Had to watch! Turned out to be Vancouver.

Both filmed mainly in Vancouver/Surrey and quite a few YVR shots. Also a couple of Victoria shots and even some at YYJ.

Anyway...

One of the characters was the captain of an (anonymous) Indian Airline who "brought in the Vancouver flight." I thought... Hmmmmm.... Maybe one day this will actually be a reality. :-)

Very entertaining!

Genauso
Jun 13, 2014, 2:50 AM
Great shot to also mark the 20th anniversary of the first flight of the 777 on June 12, 1994.

Love the new Air New Zealand livery as well!!

I was just reading about the 777x (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_777#777-8X) (like 787 with similar range and efficiency, but double the passengers, arriving beginning 2019/2020) in light of Emirates' Airbus cancellation (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-06-11/airbus-pitches-a380-jumbo-jet-in-new-york-after-emirates-snub.html) (when does a slope become a fall for the A350+380.)

Obviously I'm happy to see Lufthansa, ANZ, and ANA next to each other which feels like a new development. But, with more new planes in service and connections that are growing as well I was musing optimistically on the future for YVR (passenger) and YPR (cargo) as the global air traffic network consolidates into a new set of hubs.

As for the Chinese legation, Canada is finally formally announcing the Northern Gateway approval. Planning became serious by December and don't be surprised by a shift to Prince Rupert if that is announced as well. We'll have to wait and see what smaller announcements might accompany the package.

rxp
Jun 13, 2014, 3:25 AM
Flew Singapore Airlines yesterday and actually watched two full length Punjabi movies on the flight.

Checked out the extensive (as always) new release movie listings and saw 2 movies where the plots were about going to/living in Canada. Was actually a movie with a sequel. Had to watch! Turned out to be Vancouver.

Both filmed mainly in Vancouver/Surrey and quite a few YVR shots. Also a couple of Victoria shots and even some at YYJ.

Anyway...

One of the characters was the captain of an (anonymous) Indian Airline who "brought in the Vancouver flight." I thought... Hmmmmm.... Maybe one day this will actually be a reality. :-)

Very entertaining!

Do you know what movies that was in? would love to check that out....

Johnny Aussie
Jun 13, 2014, 4:16 AM
Do you know what movies that was in? would love to check that out....

Couldn't remember off hand but after a bit of searching...

Jatt and Julia
Jatt and Julia 2

Johnny Aussie
Jun 13, 2014, 4:19 AM
Great shot to also mark the 20th anniversary of the first flight of the 777 on June 12, 1994.

Love the new Air New Zealand livery as well!!

We've been getting that in MEL quite a few times lately on their 773s.

Would be nice to squeeze in a few more Star carriers in one shot.... AC, UA, CA, BR. If there are delays maybe one day the stars will align (pun fully intended).

Johnny Aussie
Jun 13, 2014, 4:28 AM
There are definitely some VIPs from China visiting right now. That is all I can say but I'm sure info will leak.

I'm out of the loop on the other side of the world (well I am usually anyways)

Come on!!!

Perhaps Hainan wants to launch its own flights to YVR.

Xiamen still in the works I am told... But prob not til 2015.

tuffyy
Jun 13, 2014, 6:16 AM
Some VIP guests checking out Vancouver? An Airbus A320 can't make the hop without a fuel stop or two along the way from China. Wonder how it made it over.

Actually the A320ACJ (corporate version) can easily make the hop over nonstop from mainland China to YVR, As can the 737BBJ.

Canadian74
Jun 13, 2014, 3:52 PM
Couldn't remember off hand but after a bit of searching...

Jatt and Julia
Jatt and Julia 2

Jatt and Juliet
Jatt and Juliet 2

Corrected :)

Johnny Aussie
Jun 13, 2014, 10:20 PM
Jatt and Juliet
Jatt and Juliet 2

Corrected :)

Oh man! Thanks. Sloppy... Could blame auto correct but ill just plead jet lag :-)

Johnny Aussie
Jun 14, 2014, 6:55 AM
Air Transat (via Enerjet 737s) once again offering weekly YYC-YVR flights for the summer.

YYC-YVR operates on Fridays
YVR-YYC operates on Mondays

Might as well sell some seats on repositioning flights for the summer sun flights.

rxp
Jun 14, 2014, 8:00 PM
Oh man! Thanks. Sloppy... Could blame auto correct but ill just plead jet lag :-)

Thanks!