PDA

You are viewing a trimmed-down version of the SkyscraperPage.com discussion forum.  For the full version follow the link below.

View Full Version : YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 [63] 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136

craneSpotter
Aug 14, 2014, 6:38 PM
I would guess bookings were looking good and since there is an a/c available... why not start earlier. Good plan as October is a great month to visit LAS.

This added daily flight pretty much replaces the lost capacity when Philippine Airlines dropped the YVR-LAS tag a couple of years ago. So it should push YVR-LAS numbers back up again.
Compared to last winter... this is a decent 28% increase in the YVR-LAS market compared to last winter.

Thanks. Makes sense.

This is somewhat interesting..article from USA today:

"The 50 longest airlines routes from the USA and Canada" (http://www.usatoday.com/picture-gallery/travel/flights/2014/08/12/the-50-longest-airlines-routes-from-the-usa-and-canada/13982425/)

YVR has two:

#50. Vancouver - Auckland, New Zealand (6,131 nautical miles): Air New Zealand (Boeing 777-200); 14 hours (outbound)

#21. Vancouver - Sydney, Australia (6,746 nautical miles): Air Canada (Boeing 777-200LR); 15 hours, 35 minutes (outbound)

I know lots of people who have done #21 - it's a looooong flight.

SpongeG
Aug 14, 2014, 6:51 PM
it looks like they have changed the security for pier b - when i walked through yesterday after arriving it seemed different from the other side, will find out when i use it next week looks like there is more space for lining up now

Johnny Aussie
Aug 14, 2014, 8:33 PM
Thanks. Makes sense.

This is somewhat interesting..article from USA today:

"The 50 longest airlines routes from the USA and Canada" (http://www.usatoday.com/picture-gallery/travel/flights/2014/08/12/the-50-longest-airlines-routes-from-the-usa-and-canada/13982425/)

YVR has two:

#50. Vancouver - Auckland, New Zealand (6,131 nautical miles): Air New Zealand (Boeing 777-200); 14 hours (outbound)

#21. Vancouver - Sydney, Australia (6,746 nautical miles): Air Canada (Boeing 777-200LR); 15 hours, 35 minutes (outbound)

I know lots of people who have done #21 - it's a looooong flight.

As somebody who does #21 a lot... It's not that bad at all.

About to do #50 again soon.

Perhaps one day soon there will be another long - haul from YVR on this list which would suit me just fine. It would leap into the top 20 :D

Today's flight only 3 hours so easy breezy!

twoNeurons
Aug 14, 2014, 10:38 PM
It made sense they used the 763 for startup as they also have to test and prove the market. Don't forget YVR is still a relatively small market in the scheme of things. The natural progression will be for their 763s to get replaced by 788s as they are phased out.
Like a lot of new routes an airline's expectation isn't necessarily to be profitable for even a couple of years. You will notice ANA is really starting to ramp up codeshares with Air Canada for domestic routes out of YVR. These types of changes will help develop the route and make it a profitable venture eventually. Also, Air Canada "right-sized" the YVR-NRT route to a 763 due to NH's entry. But not surprising YVR-NRT will be one of the first routes to see the 788. We think there is competition here? The ANA / JAL bloodbath is notorious. JAL really protested ANA's slot allotments awarded out of HND to the point of legal threats. But that's that.

As for JAL when they almost collapsed a few years ago I was pleasantly surprised that they even held on to YVR when I looked at all the other bases they closed. It is certainly common knowledge that Japan has really struggled with recovery but there is hope on their horizon. And the 788 is just the perfect fit for this route right now. I think YVR will continue to see JAL tails for years to come.

It's certainly well-timed for code-shares. Leaving at the end of the business day, basically allows for any morning flight in North America to arrive in YVR with enough time to make the 16:50 ANA to Haneda.

It wouldn't surprise me if they started promoting the YVR connection to places like Denver or Chicago, which have flights to NRT, but not to HND.

I know ANA is gaining a reputation in Japan for being the stronger airline, especially since the bailout of JAL. Either way, I'm glad that 2 out of 3 flights to Tokyo from Vancouver are currently or will soon be Dreamliners.

madog222
Aug 14, 2014, 11:33 PM
Can anyone shed some light on this?

From YVR twitter today....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LPvUxhUtqcs&feature=youtu.be


PiF-xQnqARE

Denscity
Aug 15, 2014, 12:56 AM
As somebody who does #21 a lot... It's not that bad at all.

About to do #50 again soon.

Perhaps one day soon there will be another long - haul from YVR on this list which would suit me just fine. It would leap into the top 20 :D

Today's flight only 3 hours so easy breezy!

Haha any chance its YVR - MEL??
And what about YVR to Manilla? Or does it stop somewhere else in Asia first?

trofirhen
Aug 15, 2014, 1:49 AM
Haha any chance its YVR - MEL??
And what about YVR to Manilla? Or does it stop somewhere else in Asia first?
:2cents: Going on a serious note from this, I'd love to see (seriously, folks) YVR to MEL, although BNE seems next up on the YVR - to Australia lineup list. In a year, maybe two, according to AC. BNE may be closer, but it would seem that MEL would provide a larger market. Maybe not. My dream would be to see both MEL and BNE added to the list, perhaps one Air Canada, the other Jetstar. I doubt that'll happen for a number of years.

Johnny Aussie
Aug 15, 2014, 5:44 AM
Haha any chance its YVR - MEL??
And what about YVR to Manilla? Or does it stop somewhere else in Asia first?

I hope so (YVR-MEL) - a prime flight for the 789s. The main issue is how much would that affect YVR-SYD as well. The same analysis done when AC added YYC-NRT. What affect would that have on YVR-NRT. Obviously, in that case, the decision wheel said "Do it!"

Since the whole issue between BNE and/or MEL has been discussed, all the rumours have been based on what was said by AC brass to whom. Basically talking to MEL people they say MEL, talking to BNE people they say BNE. Also, BNE came up on their investor day map of possible 787 destinations. As did YYC-PEK and YVR-FRA and now we know both of those are put on the back burner for now. So really hard to say.

Geographically of course BNE has the advantage. But in market terms MEL has been the fastest growing city in Australia for the past few years. We are also starting to see a slowdown in mining activity and along with that a lot of FIFO traffic. That is affecting PER and BNE the most. And the FIFO network in Australia is just so huge compared to Canada. It is just insane here. Just take a look at the tarmac in PER any morning. You wouldn't believe your eyes. This market has only a very small effect on MEL. So any calcs done a few years ago need to be reset. In addition, MEL airport is just growing like crazy..... fingers crossed but not holding my breath.

As for Manila.... PR already flies there daily non-stop. Or did you mean Air Canada? I wouldn't expect YVR-MNL be high up on AC's target list at the moment.

If I had to take a stab at AC's next Asian destination from YVR I would have to go with CAN or another city in China.

Johnny Aussie
Aug 15, 2014, 6:35 AM
PiF-xQnqARE

My hunches were right!

Very clever little teaser earlier...

Johnny Aussie
Aug 15, 2014, 6:42 AM
Attention YVR spotters.

YVR twitter saying a 707 is due in to YVR at 11am.

No further info given....

craneSpotter
Aug 15, 2014, 6:42 PM
interesting.

McArthurGlen ramps up hiring as airport outlet mall launch looms
London mega-mall developer targeting luxury brand-conscious shoppers and travellers

BIV Aug 12, 2014 - link (http://www.biv.com/article/20140812/BIV0119/140819989/0/SEARCH/mcarthurglen-ramps-up-hiring-as-airport-outlet-mall-launch-looms)

London-based McArthurGlen Group is hiring a 10-person leadership team to oversee Metro Vancouver’s first outlet mall in the lead-up to the centre’s spring 2015 launch.

The company, which is building a 240,000-square-foot first phase of the McArthurGlen Designer Outlet Vancouver Airport in partnership with the Vancouver International Airport Authority has previously had little presence in North America...

...He added that tenants in McArthurGlen’s first North American mall will provide 650 jobs initially and another 350 jobs once a 140,000-square-foot Phase 2 is complete.

“It’s 100% guaranteed that we will build a Phase 2. It’s just a matter of time.”

However, Jove declined to say which tenants will lease space in the first phase of the mall’s 85 units, most of which are less than 2,000 square feet.

McArthurGlen’s European outlet malls showcase brands such as Burberry, Prada, Armani and Michael Kors. Jove said similar brands will be at the Richmond mall on the northeast corner of Sea Island, east of what was a 2,500-spot parking lot and directly north of the Templeton Canada Line station....

...New financing from deep-pocketed partner Simon Property Group (SPG) could helpMcArthurGlen increase the pace of its mall development. Last year SPG (NYSE:SPG) bought an initial equity interest in the private McArthurGlen for €435 million.

“We looked at both Vancouver and Toronto and liked both cities,” Jove said. “We decided we liked Vancouver better, even though it has a smaller population, because there is a strong Asian demographic, a lack of [outlet mall] competition and a large tourist market.”

He explained that a large Asian population was attractive because many Asian shoppers are brand-conscious and like outlet mall shopping.

McArthurGlen’s Sea Island mall is two SkyTrain stations from the Vancouver International Airport, and the company’s plan is to make the mall an extension of the airport’s retail offerings.

Denscity
Aug 15, 2014, 6:44 PM
When I mentioned YVR - Manila I meant shouldn't it be on the top 50 furthest flights list?

Johnny Aussie
Aug 15, 2014, 10:24 PM
When I mentioned YVR - Manila I meant shouldn't it be on the top 50 furthest flights list?

Oh, sorry!

No YVR-MNL is 476 miles shorter than YVR-AKL (which is #50)

Here is an excellent tool for calculating global mapping of routes...

http://www.gcmap.com/

Just type in any route or combo of routes in the white area near the top then hit "MAP"

EG YVR-MNL; YVR-AKL then hit "MAP"

Johnny Aussie
Aug 15, 2014, 11:01 PM
Prelim July stats are out.

YVR rolling along very nicely.

Following are load factors for Western Canada:

LHR: YVR 86.3%; YEG 86.2%; YYC 84.1%
LGW: YVR 92.9%; YYC 92.1%; YEG 84.2%
MAN: YVR 90.3%
MAN/GLA: YYC 89.1% (note: GLA and MAN a shared route on TS)
GLA: YVR 87.9%

Observations:

Both YVR-LHR and YYC- LHR had significant capacity additions. YYC's increase was due to AC replacing the 333 with the 77W and YVR's was due to the high density 77W being put on the route plus VS added a 5th weekly frequency. Due to this YVR-LHR saw over 4,200 more pax than last summer and YYC increased over 1,700. Both routes would have had LF decreases due to the additional capacity outstripping demand. This was expected. TS carried about 560 more pax to/from YVR compared to 2013.

YEG had declines on both its UK routes (down about 950 pax total). Last July YEG-LGW load factor was around 92% and YEG-LHR was 89.2% so significant declines. Again, I think Icelandair has had some effect on this. As reported earlier Air Transat has pulled the route next summer.

casper
Aug 17, 2014, 12:14 AM
Prelim July stats are out.

YVR rolling along very nicely.

Following are load factors for Western Canada:

LHR: YVR 86.3%; YEG 86.2%; YYC 84.1%
LGW: YVR 92.9%; YYC 92.1%; YEG 84.2%
MAN: YVR 90.3%
MAN/GLA: YYC 89.1% (note: GLA and MAN a shared route on TS)
GLA: YVR 87.9%

Observations:

Both YVR-LHR and YYC- LHR had significant capacity additions. YYC's increase was due to AC replacing the 333 with the 77W and YVR's was due to the high density 77W being put on the route plus VS added a 5th weekly frequency. Due to this YVR-LHR saw over 4,200 more pax than last summer and YYC increased over 1,700. Both routes would have had LF decreases due to the additional capacity outstripping demand. This was expected. TS carried about 560 more pax to/from YVR compared to 2013.

YEG had declines on both its UK routes (down about 950 pax total). Last July YEG-LGW load factor was around 92% and YEG-LHR was 89.2% so significant declines. Again, I think Icelandair has had some effect on this. As reported earlier Air Transat has pulled the route next summer.

Unfortunately this is supporting the concept that Air Canada needs and can effectively use these High Density 77W. I much prefer the lower density version of the aircraft.

TransitJack
Aug 17, 2014, 1:13 AM
Was riding out to Iona today and stopped to take a pic of the new road near Templeton Stn.

It was the original access road to the employee parking and train station that now extends east, under the Arthur Laing to the secondary road.

All is good, but now I see they added parking spaces. Not angled, not parallel, but at a 90 degree to the road. That's going to make the road part of the parking lot and thus not very quick to use (not that many will use it, but still).

Sidenote, why is adding photos such a PITA?

Johnny Aussie
Aug 17, 2014, 2:05 AM
Unfortunately this is supporting the concept that Air Canada needs and can effectively use these High Density 77W. I much prefer the lower density version of the aircraft.

I suppose so. In July the market absorbed just over half the capacity added (including Virgin) Gives them room to grow still. I am guessing AC must be happy with this. And they seem to be filling J and Prem Economy quite well.
The LF on YVR-LHR at 86.3% is the exact same LF on AC's Atlantic routes in aggregate. Don't have the breakdown of AC, BA and VS available but a healthy sign especially with the large capacity increase.

YYC seems to be having a little less luck filling the 77W. Just under a third of the additional capacity has been absorbed.

Unsure of how HKG is faring but AC's July stats on the Pacific indicate the Pacific in general is doing very well from a LF perspective at least.

Johnny Aussie
Aug 18, 2014, 9:53 AM
To add to the already announced increases on transborder routes this winter...

From 17 December to 5 January UA is adding:

3rd daily flight on YVR-ORD
5th daily flight to YVR-SFO

Also, UA has applied for code-sharing on certain rouge routes. This should be approved soon then routes like YVR-SFO will be back to 8-9 daily on UA/AC.

Westjet appears to be the only carrier not increasing transborder services out of YVR this winter. In fact, this winter is the first time they haven't increased transborder flying out of Western Canada. There are a very few additional frequencies over the peak Xmas period but that's it. Most noticeable is the discontinued YYC-MIA route. However this loss is offset by additional frequencies on other YYC transborder routes so overall a wash.

The only route showing any sort of decrease is YVR-SLC on DL. It's going from 11 per week to daily only. However this returns to 11 weekly the second week of February anyway. The new 4 daily YVR-SEA on DL would be replacing some of SLC's connecting traffic for sure.

I'll do an overall transborder winter summary later. Looking good.

officedweller
Aug 19, 2014, 12:20 AM
YVR buys back ground leases to cargo facilities - and McDonalds on Russ Baker Way:

http://www.richmondreview.com/business/271407981.html

Johnny Aussie
Aug 19, 2014, 5:49 AM
Good to see YVR getting new J class.

From airlineroute.net twitter....

"China Eastern's A330-200 aircraft with new Business Class (1-2-1 layout) has entered service, mainly on Vancouver, Paris and Frankfurt route"

Genauso
Aug 19, 2014, 10:45 PM
North Pacific airline route development: Part 1 - Market growth and the Asian airlines' strategies (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/north-pacific-airline-route-development-part-1---market-growth-and-the-asian-airlines-strategies-182848)
CAPA > Aviation Analysis > North Pacific airline route development: Part 1 - Market growth and the Asian airlines' strategies
18th August, 2014
An in depth article, establishing the current stage while setting up for the next part which will go into the political aspect of visas and airline flight freedoms.

Canada to NE/SE Asia (seats per week, one way): 19-Sep-2011 to 8-Feb-2015
http://i.imgur.com/hlCLPKP.png (http://imgur.com/hlCLPKP)
source: CAPA - Centre for Aviation and OAG @ http://centreforaviation.com

For context,
US to NE/SE Asia (seats per week, one way): 19-Sep-2011 to 8-Feb-2015
http://i.imgur.com/yLdYmCj.png (http://imgur.com/yLdYmCj)
source: CAPA - Centre for Aviation and OAG @ http://centreforaviation.com

Summary, aviation in Asia might be the biggest thing going and the trans-Pacific routes have a lot of potential for more growth/competition/efficiency.

Johnny Aussie
Aug 20, 2014, 3:00 AM
Love these photos this guy takes at YVR. Shows a fairly decent but just a fraction of the variety of the aircraft / airlines serving YVR.

http://twitter.com/yvrairport/status/501873901962424321/photo/1

Hourglass
Aug 22, 2014, 4:44 AM
Interesting new article from CAPA that highlights the contrasting approach between Canada and the US when it comes to liberalization.

http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/north-pacific-air-route-development-part-2---us-airlines-risk-aversion-and-canadas-restrictionism-182041

Also includes a brief blurb about YVR's opportunity. Nothing new but a good recap nonetheless.

Klazu
Aug 22, 2014, 4:46 AM
Love these photos this guy takes at YVR. Shows a fairly decent but just a fraction of the variety of the aircraft / airlines serving YVR.

http://twitter.com/yvrairport/status/501873901962424321/photo/1

Haha, that's indeed an ingenious photo. Love it! :)

trofirhen
Aug 22, 2014, 6:00 AM
Interesting new article from CAPA that highlights the contrasting approach between Canada and the US when it comes to liberalization.

http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/north-pacific-air-route-development-part-2---us-airlines-risk-aversion-and-canadas-restrictionism-182041

Also includes a brief blurb about YVR's opportunity. Nothing new but a good recap nonetheless.
With good ol' Calvin Rovinescu ready to pour water on YVR's fire.
As you say, nothing new, but still an example of tight-assed Canadian restrictionism (NOT talking about the Gulf Carriers)

Johnny Aussie
Aug 22, 2014, 7:45 AM
JAL has been granted approval by the CTA to slap its codeshare flight numbers on Westjet transborder flights.

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/311-a-2014

Should help provide a few Japan-US connections via YVR.

Genauso
Aug 22, 2014, 11:34 PM
North Pacific airline route development: Part 1 - Market growth and the Asian airlines' strategies (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/north-pacific-airline-route-development-part-1---market-growth-and-the-asian-airlines-strategies-182848)


North Pacific air route development: Part 2 - US airlines’ risk aversion and Canada's restrictionism
CAPA > Aviation Analysis > North Pacific air route development: Part 2 - US airlines’ risk aversion and Canada's restrictionism
22nd August, 2014 (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/north-pacific-air-route-development-part-2---us-airlines-risk-aversion-and-canadas-restrictionism-182041)


...
As Vancouver Airport's then-newly appointed CEO Craig Richmond, formulated the proposition on 23-Oct-2013: "BC (British Colombia) does not have the market size to support a simple back- and-forth service between Vancouver and cities such as Xiamen, Wuhan, and Hangzhou. But if Vancouver serves as an intermediary point between China and cities in the US and South America - that combination of markets makes a service viable. Our goal? We want to be China’s connection to all the Americas. Open up the market and we’ll bring jobs. We’ll create routes for B.C. cherries to reach Santiago. We’ll bring opportunities for mining companies to fly directly to their sites. And this is not a pipe dream: we have airlines lined up to fly between China and Latin America. Why? Because from any point in western Latin America, flying through YVR is the shortest route to Asia."

Air Canada CEO Calin Rovinescu disagreed, saying, (as reported by the Vancouver Sun): “Lately, there have been lively discussions on more ‘Open Skies’ policies ... and many believe that it will bring more airlines, more routes, more jobs, and nirvana for all...To me, that is a solution in search of a problem.”

Mr Rovinescu argued Canada needs strong local carriers to build hubs, and liberalisation risked that evolution. But Asian carriers will continue to be able to offer many more flights than Air Canada ever can. Qantas is an example of a carrier that has pulled down loss-making international routes to focus on its domestic market, which until a recent capacity war was handsomely profitable. Visitor arrivals have grown significantly, benefitting Australia and its major airports.

So long as Canada chooses not to give "nirvana for all", the indirect beneficiary is the US. Of six key Asian markets, the United States has open skies or very liberal agreements with five. In the sixth, China, Chinese carriers use less traffic rights than their US peers, meaning the US is not capping the growth of Chinese carriers, unlike in Canada.
...

BEGIN FAMILIAR RANT:

I completely understand why Air Canada, or WestJet after they upgrade their fleet, would hesitate to expand Vancouver flights and fight to keep others from doing the same. Rovinescu is merely trying to maximize profits of the market he knows exists, yesterday's market. There's been a lot of that throughout Canadian history, and it's the easiest path.

For context, Canadian Pacific / The Family Compact fought in all manners bureaucratic and illegal to use Ottawa to block the tolled private Lion's Gate Bridge and development of The British Properties which later became West Vancouver. They wanted to squeeze every penny out of their current land sales in Vancouver without competition interfering. Any extra money they did earn from excluding competitors is insignificant as seen from the perspective of today. That understandable tendency to lock in a good profit with no chance of loss enabled by the centralization of land/money/power in Canada relative to the United States is the main reason for the divergences in the two countries development.

Air Canada may be the envy of Europe today, given that airlines and airports there are very expensive for their governments to sustain and that won't end until someone gives up. But, in just about every possible future Air Canada will only fall down the rankings. If they want a chance to grow and survive in relevance -- to its partners and suppliers as well as customers -- they need to be willing to give up their safety blanket of avoiding change.


I would support them if they campaigned on ending the indirect federal taxation for airport leases, especially given that the land in some cases was essentially stolen in the last century and they've put nothing into it as NavCanada and security are paid separately with passenger fees.

I would support them in avoiding competition from any foreign carrier that might just flood the market with seats only until they crush domestic carriers.

But I can't support them blocking the transit visas to allow flights from Asia to South America (and they seem to be unnamed opposition)


Part of the reason for the disharmony here is that Canada is not really one airline market, the western and eastern ends are worlds apart with loosely connected flights. It would be helpful if the Canada could be 2 or 3 countries when negotiating flight freedoms.

Even if we were all united and wanted to, we still can't stop change. Maybe robots halve the costs of European airlines, Air Canada can't afford to match at their smaller size, and those flight access agreements backfire. Maybe southern Africa and South America grow in population and wealth and become much bigger airline markets like Asia is today, and they carve new patterns that just go around and exclude Canada. Maybe there is some other political or technological change that eliminates Air Canada's gifted international advantage and they simply no longer have a role to play or the means to adapt.

It's too easy for me to criticize Air Canada, expected almost. They've almost gone bankrupt along with Aeroplan in recent memory, and that's not because they performed poorly. But when they're asking the general public to say no (eg to Craig Richmond's pragmatic overtures), have they even offered any alternative vision for the future or committed to a strategy for us to trust in?

Johnny Aussie
Aug 23, 2014, 1:06 AM
^ they may want to revisit their comparisons to Australia.

This article has very lightly touched on some of the issues facing us here. But it goes way deeper than that.

What perhaps was once the darling of the aviation world... How quickly things can change.

Just look at what has just transpired over just the last weeks...

Qantas about to announce a billion $ loss, Jetstar rumoured to take over many international routes. Virgin also most likely to report record losses (almost a guarantee). QF is shoring up on its probably only profitable area.. The USA.
Air Asia X lost $32M on its Australian operations in 2Q 2014. Domestically, Tigerair bleeding red ink faster than Niagara Falls, Virgin and Qantas stopping all expansion due to plummeting LFs. SQ pulling A380s due to over capacity. Thai load factors plummeting and cutting flights (also due to the political unrest of course!). And on and on and on...

In conclusion while Australia just opened the flood gates wide and QF got into bed with Emirates. Qantas has just suffered so harshly that most likely EK has gotten exactly what it wants at QF's expense.

Fantastic for the consumer in the SHORT term, but guess what.. THIS IS NOT SUSTAINABLE and airlines are now slashing capacity left right and centre.

Very gloomy dark skies here ATM and our two local carrier (groups) are in absolute turmoil. And I really do try the glass half full approach. So perhaps AC, Canada in general may want to see what is happening here.

The Canadian and Australian markets are similar (not identical) in size and have their own unique positives and negatives. One of our perceived positives, in this case, we don't have a country of almost 320 million people on our doorstep. However, we are a very small market but sometimes people think we are just this massive market with infinite possibilities... Our weaknesses are now showing evidently.

I am a free enterpriser, business owner and frequent traveller, but sometimes protectionism has a small (focus on small) role for the greater good of society.

trofirhen
Aug 23, 2014, 1:36 AM
It's too easy for me to criticize Air Canada, expected almost. They've almost gone bankrupt along with Aeroplan in recent memory, and that's not because they performed poorly. But when they're asking the general public to say no (eg to Craig Richmond's pragmatic overtures), have they even offered any alternative vision for the future or committed to a strategy for us to trust in?

No, they have not, and there's the enormous lack of plausibility that Rovinescu and associates brings to us, along with a shaken faith in Canada's airline development strategy. Hardest hit would be YVR (followed by YUL, already very limited on transborder routes, for example). They have taken several very optimal and pragmatic ideas, and shot them down with "straw man" arguments.

DDP
Aug 25, 2014, 1:57 AM
^ they may want to revisit their comparisons to Australia.

This article has very lightly touched on some of the issues facing us here. But it goes way deeper than that.

What perhaps was once the darling of the aviation world... How quickly things can change.

Just look at what has just transpired over just the last weeks...

Qantas about to announce a billion $ loss, Jetstar rumoured to take over many international routes. Virgin also most likely to report record losses (almost a guarantee). QF is shoring up on its probably only profitable area.. The USA.
Air Asia X lost $32M on its Australian operations in 2Q 2014. Domestically, Tigerair bleeding red ink faster than Niagara Falls, Virgin and Qantas stopping all expansion due to plummeting LFs. SQ pulling A380s due to over capacity. Thai load factors plummeting and cutting flights (also due to the political unrest of course!). And on and on and on...

In conclusion while Australia just opened the flood gates wide and QF got into bed with Emirates. Qantas has just suffered so harshly that most likely EK has gotten exactly what it wants at QF's expense.

Fantastic for the consumer in the SHORT term, but guess what.. THIS IS NOT SUSTAINABLE and airlines are now slashing capacity left right and centre.

Very gloomy dark skies here ATM and our two local carrier (groups) are in absolute turmoil. And I really do try the glass half full approach. So perhaps AC, Canada in general may want to see what is happening here.

The Canadian and Australian markets are similar (not identical) in size and have their own unique positives and negatives. One of our perceived positives, in this case, we don't have a country of almost 320 million people on our doorstep. However, we are a very small market but sometimes people think we are just this massive market with infinite possibilities... Our weaknesses are now showing evidently.

I am a free enterpriser, business owner and frequent traveller, but sometimes protectionism has a small (focus on small) role for the greater good of society.

You are missing a big price of that puzzle and hate when people compare the two:
Australia has two system, one for Qantas, one for others. VA is owned by foreigners something Qantas can't do.
-Geography, emirites took over the kangaroo routes essentially. But why would Qantas do any better. They would still need to operate ULH routes to Europe with with fuel where it is few make those work.
-2009 economy, USA, Europe tanked traffic fell, hurt everyone.
- emirites took over Europe but why can't Qantas be profitable focusing on China, India, Latin America, USA se Asia, Africa -you know the other 5 billion people in the world Emirites won't fly.
-management, were they ready for modern era? Operationally? Was a380 the right pane or should they have banked on the 787 to be profitable business?

Also how are consumers doing in the Australlian market? Ae prices coming Down with more choice? Arnt people flying more? Last time I looked there is more traffic per person down there than up here. If a company loses but consumers win, is it really that bad?

I also think Canada gets too caught up in the protection attitude in all large business. If a country can find capital for an industry I think it should be opened up.

I'm someone who worked for AC (years ago), an airport authority and now an American consulting company in Canada. Sometimes it is much nicer working for a non protected company.

Johnny Aussie
Aug 25, 2014, 3:38 AM
You are missing a big price of that puzzle and hate when people compare the two

But that is exactly what this article is doing! Bringing in a comparison to Australia!

I am presenting a different view point from an Aussie perspective.

Emirates, I am sure, is just wringing their hands with glee getting exactly what they want at QF's expense. Yes there is a different structure here but it's even bigger than that. I am in no way defending QF as a company but again there is more at play here.

Yes, of course the consumer is winning...in the short term... This is NOT sustainable. Great to flood the market and nobody makes money... Great concept. Adjustments are coming daily and the consumer is about to lose including more Aussie jobs lost. I am a shareholder of both companies and business is all about pleasing the shareholder and nothing else. That part I get.

So perhaps prevent this mess in the first place.

As a free enterpriser I like small government but sometimes and I emphasise sometimes and in a small way a bit of protectionism is important for the long term greater good in general.

Believe me Australia is VERY protectionist as well... Don't want people to know that but there is in certain industries to "protect us"... The next time our banana crops get ruined we will see that again. So we pick and choose which industries to protect like every other country.

Genauso
Aug 25, 2014, 3:12 PM
North Pacific airline route development: Part 1 - Market growth and the Asian airlines' strategies (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/north-pacific-airline-route-development-part-1---market-growth-and-the-asian-airlines-strategies-182848)
CAPA > Aviation Analysis > North Pacific airline route development: Part 1 - Market growth and the Asian airlines' strategies
18th August, 2014
North Pacific air route development: Part 2 - US airlines’ risk aversion and Canada's restrictionism
CAPA > Aviation Analysis > North Pacific air route development: Part 2 - US airlines’ risk aversion and Canada's restrictionism
22nd August, 2014 (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/north-pacific-air-route-development-part-2---us-airlines-risk-aversion-and-canadas-restrictionism-182041)

North Pacific air route development: Part 3 - China's primary and secondary airport hubs evolving
CAPA > Aviation Analysis > North Pacific air route development: Part 3 - China's primary and secondary airport hubs evolving
25th August, 2014 (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/north-pacific-air-route-development-part-3---chinas-primary-and-secondary-airport-hubs-evolving-183390)

No rants this time.

Unsurprisingly, nearly 80% of the route expansion across the North Pacific in the past five years has occurred at hub airports where behind gateway connections are readily available - although for various reasons those connections are not always accessible on the same terms to Asian carriers, even where they are partners of the North American airlines.
...
Average Daily Trans-Pacific flights from North American origin airport: 2009, 2014
Rank Airport 2014 (Increase from 2009)
1 LAX 29 6
2 SFO 22 3
3 YVR 16 5
4 JFK 15 4
5 ORD 13 4
6 SEA 9 4
7 YYZ 8 3
8 DFW 5 3
9 DTW 5 2
10 EWR 5 0
11 IAD 4 1
12 IAH 3 2
13 ATL 2 -1
14 BOS 1 1
15 DEN 1 1
16 MSP 1 0
17 PDX 1 0
18 SAN 1 1
19 SJC 1 1
20 YYC 1 1
Source: CAPA - Centre for Aviation and OAG
Note: Philippine Airlines LAS-YVR-MNL service listed only under YVR.


The Airbus 380s are losing money everywhere, and the pre-purchases of them have slowed down many carriers' plans.
(i) The role of the 787

The remaining nine net additional trans-Pacific flights are from a number of smaller cities, and it is no coincidence that four of the nine flights have been opened by the 787: Tokyo Narita-Boston/Denver/San Diego/San Jose. This gives credence to the 787's position as enabling new thinner markets to be opened.

CAPA previously looked at the 787 route network and found that about a fifth of 787 non-stop routes had not been flown prior to its introduction. Most 787 routes are replacing older, less efficient aircraft, as would be expected. Although this is a small sample, looking at new secondary routes and finding about half are made possible by the 787 further supports its position as likely to link new cities in future.


Average daily trans-Pacific flights from Asian origin airport: 2009, 2014
Rank Airport 2014 (Increase since 2009)
1 NRT 38 3
2 ICN 25 6
3 HKG 21 6
4 PEK 19 10
5 PVG 15 7
6 TPE 12 1
7 HND 5 5
8 MNL 3 0
9 CAN 2 2
10 KIX 1 0
11 NGO 1 0
12 BKK 0 -1
13 SIN 0 -2
Source: CAPA - Centre for Aviation and OAG
Note: Chengdu Airlines CTU-SHE-YVR service listed only under SHE


And some information on incentives for airlines by Chinese airports as they continue to be focused on growth and market share

...
Beijing and Shanghai will continue to grow, no doubt. While reaching the end of its first phase of rapid growth, with the 777-300ER, Air China will resume faster growth once it receives 787-9s to reach thinner markets.

Forthcoming delivery of 747-8s will enable more growth, while later any top-up 777 order could fuel more growth.

Hainan Airlines expects to order more 787s to mount more North American services. Of the foreign carriers, American Airlines is interested in a Dallas-Beijing service.

Shanghai is probably about to surge
Shanghai is on the verge of a growth spurt as China Eastern over the next few years looks to deploy most, if not all, of the 20 777-300ERs it has on order to North America. Shanghai is replicating the incentives other Chinese airports – notably Chengdu and Chongqing – have offered to woo medium/long-haul services.

Shanghai, according to WCARN News, is offering RMB30 million (USD4.9 million) for a new international route over six hours in duration, RMB20 million (USD3.3 million) for a resumed service, and RMB10 million (USD1.6 million) for increased service on an existing route.

Also being a transfer hub is an objective, with Shanghai offering RMB5-50 million (USD0.8-8.1 million) for increased transfer traffic.
...

It's a good series of articles about trans-pacific flights, with some actual reporting. There\s more at the links.

So how about that, what are your thoughts about YVR being the HKG of the west = )

As hub to hub traffic fills out, and eventually starts to be pruned, what's the essential role for YVR to fulfil as secondary airports and markets develop in China, or as longer range aircraft upend the current order.
Currently it seems YVR's international flights are capped unless there are forthcoming quota increases by the federal government, and the connections to the southern hemisphere remain abysmal (just spend a few days making connections in Toronto and then London, as if those airports are the best service in the world to go out of your way for)

Genauso
Aug 25, 2014, 3:26 PM
I will also recall from Part 2

Status of Canada and US air service agreements to key Asian markets: Aug-2014

Canada
China (mainland) Chinese carriers using traffic rights. China will not expand.
Japan Japanese carriers under-utilising traffic rights. Japan will not expand.
Korea Open Skies (2009)
Hong Kong Hong Kong carriers using traffic rights, seeking more
Philippines In May-2014 doubled allotment from seven weekly flights to 14, likely still not enough for Filipino carriers
Taiwan Taiwanese carriers using traffic rights, seeking more

United States
China (mainland) US carriers using all main traffic rights, Chinese not
Japan Open Skies (2010)
Korea Open Skies (1998)
Hong Kong Passenger services very liberal
Philippines Generally sufficient for Filipino carriers
Taiwan Open Skies (1997)


Source: CAPA - Centre for Aviation

trofirhen
Aug 25, 2014, 4:02 PM
Thank you for posting all this.
I hope that it will cause all people who think YVR has the Asia connection "in the bag" to wake up and smell the coffee.

The Canadian governement is unlikely to make any moves unless it benefits YYZ, because that's where the air market is, and that's where the VOTERS are.

And South American connections from Vancouver? Calin Rovinescu and co will see to it that that won't happen!!

Hey, don't think I'm knocking YVR. I'd love to see it expand by a few key routes, but with the status quo, it'll never happen.

dubsH
Aug 25, 2014, 10:07 PM
I swear every time I enter this thread, I read about how the sky is falling, YYZ is the only hub the Canadian Government cares about, etc. etc.

All I saw in the posts that Genauso posted was that from the timeframe between 2009-2014, daily flights to Asia increased from 11 to 16 at YVR (in that same timeframe, YYZ went from 5 to 8). Only LAX on that list recorded more increases of daily flights to Asia than YVR. Nothing about that says anything about the Canadian government protecting YYZ at the expense of YVR or that the sky is falling and YVR will be the only airport to lose out as a result of the lack of air service agreement improvements.

I usually lurk (since 2005) and don't post much, but it certainly doesn't make me want to visit here as often every time I read about how YVR is a tiny airport that should get flights to Paris and South America. Yes, it may not be ideal for YVR with the current Air Canada hub structure (at YYZ) and it would be nice if YVR gets a few more flights elsewhere besides Asia. But if the sky was falling, I would certainly not expect YVR to be growing in the 7-10% rolling 12 months.

Rant over.

P.S. I will be at YVR next month and see if I can take a few pictures. Although it'll be at nighttime though so no birds.

Valley_Refugee
Aug 25, 2014, 10:15 PM
I swear every time I enter this thread, I read about how the sky is falling, YYZ is the only hub the Canadian Government cares about, etc. etc.

All I saw in the posts that Genauso posted was that from the timeframe between 2009-2014, daily flights to Asia increased from 11 to 16 at YVR (in that same timeframe, YYZ went from 5 to 8). Only LAX on that list recorded more increases of daily flights to Asia than YVR. Nothing about that says anything about the Canadian government protecting YYZ at the expense of YVR or that the sky is falling and YVR will be the only airport to lose out as a result of the lack of air service agreement improvements.

I usually lurk (since 2005) and don't post much, but it certainly doesn't make me want to visit here as often every time I read about how YVR is a tiny airport that should get flights to Paris and South America. Yes, it may not be ideal for YVR with the current Air Canada hub structure (at YYZ) and it would be nice if YVR gets a few more flights elsewhere besides Asia. But if the sky was falling, I would certainly not expect YVR to be growing in the 7-10% rolling 12 months.

Rant over.

P.S. I will be at YVR next month and see if I can take a few pictures. Although it'll be at nighttime though so no birds.

Yes, you just summed up this entire thread in 3 paragraphs. :cheers:

Thankfully there are also some very good contributors who know what they are talking about and keep us informed of the developments at YVR.

Johnny Aussie
Aug 25, 2014, 10:31 PM
Yes, you just summed up this entire thread in 3 paragraphs. :cheers:

Thankfully there are also some very good contributors who know what they are talking about and keep us informed of the developments at YVR.

Completely agree. I wasn't even going to bother... again... But yes the numbers paint a completely different picture as to what is being summarised as doom and gloom. YVR gained 5 additional daily flights from 2009 to 2014 and YVR flies to every city on the Asian list top 9 plus Shenyang and Chengdu. Actually that table seems to have some mathematical errors. CAPA is a great source of info but sometimes their reporting can be sloppy.

I won't JUST focus on population... But have a look at the North America list, YVR's position on that list, look at the other cities on that list and then say YVR is not well served to the Asia Pacific. Je ne comprends pas!

Nobody is going to argue there aren't going to be challenges ahead but come on YVR has, is and will continue to serve Vancouver very well.

Also... FYI... Taiwan is not using all their allotments, there are still 2 unused. They just recently concluded a much more liberal agreement that will allow even more through 2015. Yes Philippines just doubled their allowable. But the article thinks this isn't enough. Hello, they couldn't even make YYZ work nonstop? So where are these 7 additional frequencies going to go that won't be half empty? Philippines obtained the additional slots to go via YVR to JFK. Pending CTA approval. China - there is no restriction on any Chinese Airline starting additional flights to anywhere in Canada as long as there is not another Chinese Airline on the route already (Xiamen anyone?) I am also pretty sure CX could add flights to YVR if they wanted so that is not tapped out either. So even CAPA may want to check its facts. They could use a good editor I reckon.

LeftCoaster
Aug 25, 2014, 10:33 PM
YVR is the best airport a provincial backwater logging town like Vancouver could hope for!

trofirhen
Aug 25, 2014, 11:37 PM
YVR is the best airport a provincial backwater logging town like Vancouver could hope for!

That's good news. What will YVR be like when Vancouver grows into a major, diversified, economic hub?

Hourglass
Aug 25, 2014, 11:40 PM
YVR is the best airport a provincial backwater logging town like Vancouver could hope for!

Lol yup.

YVR is a great first impression for visitors to Canada. Nice change from the clinical steel and glass that characterizes most airport developments nowadays.

Klazu
Aug 25, 2014, 11:56 PM
YVR is a great first impression for visitors to Canada. Nice change from the clinical steel and glass that characterizes most airport developments nowadays.

Yeah, YVR does feel relaxed and cosy; a bit like someone's living room. :yes:

trofirhen
Aug 26, 2014, 2:19 PM
Yeah, YVR does feel relaxed and cosy; a bit like someone's living room. :yes:


Agreed! It's just the color scheme I don't like - Federal Green.
How about sandy beige with turquoise and gold accents?

Gordon
Aug 27, 2014, 2:16 AM
According to an article in the Bellingham Herald Jul 15 @ BLI Traffic int the 1st 6 months is down 9.4% That's a huge drop especially for a small airport. I wonder what %age of that drop is from fewer Canadian passengers?

Klazu
Aug 27, 2014, 4:23 AM
According to an article in the Bellingham Herald Jul 15 @ BLI Traffic int the 1st 6 months is down 9.4% That's a huge drop especially for a small airport. I wonder what %age of that drop is from fewer Canadian passengers?

Is that perhaps due to the CAD and USD exchange rate change in the past year? I wonder how much that impacts things, like cross-border shopping.

rsxstock
Aug 27, 2014, 2:07 PM
many people drive down to bellingham to catch a flight. maybe it's no longer worth it vs a direct flight

whatnext
Aug 27, 2014, 2:45 PM
According to an article in the Bellingham Herald Jul 15 @ BLI Traffic int the 1st 6 months is down 9.4% That's a huge drop especially for a small airport. I wonder what %age of that drop is from fewer Canadian passengers?

Didn't Allegiant drop Hawaii flights from BLI? Plus a lot of people I know who have tried Allegiant to other destinations said "never again".

memememe76
Aug 27, 2014, 3:46 PM
For me personally, my trips are more often starting from and ending at Seatac because it is the same price or cheaper, they have 24/7 parking, and direct flights.

But I have noticed that the price differential between YVR and the two other airports are getting lower and lower. My most recent trips (to Cancun and Chicago), I departed from and arrived at YVR.

WarrenC12
Aug 27, 2014, 4:07 PM
My rule of thumb is we have to save at least $100 each to go through Bellingham, $300 each for Seattle (pretty much never happens).

Since we live downtown, the Canada Line to the airport is a lot easier and cheaper than getting to Bellingham and parking (even with Nexus).

Valley_Refugee
Aug 27, 2014, 4:37 PM
Didn't Allegiant drop Hawaii flights from BLI? Plus a lot of people I know who have tried Allegiant to other destinations said "never again".

Never again indeed! I once flew Allegiant from BLI-LAS and that was quite enough.

Most people look at the ticket price and don't consider the gas, parking, time, etc. it takes. For me, I don't have a car and live downtown, so it will almost never be more economical to fly out of Washington.

craneSpotter
Aug 27, 2014, 7:46 PM
For me personally, my trips are more often starting from and ending at Seatac because it is the same price or cheaper, they have 24/7 parking, and direct flights.

But I have noticed that the price differential between YVR and the two other airports are getting lower and lower. My most recent trips (to Cancun and Chicago), I departed from and arrived at YVR.

Plus you can almost always get a coupon for $99/week (all in) general parking @ the Sea-Tac garage.

craneSpotter
Aug 27, 2014, 7:49 PM
Never again indeed! I once flew Allegiant from BLI-LAS and that was quite enough.

Most people look at the ticket price and don't consider the gas, parking, time, etc. it takes. For me, I don't have a car and live downtown, so it will almost never be more economical to fly out of Washington.

Torture tubes!

Yeah, no doubt in your situation. But if you were buying 4 or more tickets and lived in south Surrey heh

I have noticed that US/CAD airfares seem to be getting closer as of late - after factoring in exchange, on the airlines I check anyway. Not sure if 3 or 4 tickets would save enough to justify a trip by car to Seattle, maybe Bellingham but the flights are so limited.

memememe76
Aug 27, 2014, 10:51 PM
Ya know, there are a lot of people who live in Surrey, White Rock, Abbotsford, Langley, etc. A lot of us factor in parking, gas, etc. We're really not that dumb.

The side benefit of flying from and to the States is that you can fill up your gas tank before heading back to Canada and buying more stuff than your regular cross border trip.

officedweller
Aug 27, 2014, 11:26 PM
Yeah, if you're on vacation for a week, then your limit would be that much higher and the car allows you to bring over larger items bought in Bellingham (as opposed to flying to YVR)

Johnny Aussie
Aug 28, 2014, 11:04 AM
This was posted in the YYC thread (thank you YYCspotter for posting) and this was actually prepared for Tourism Alberta.... But there is a lot of other Canadian markets information.

It does include a lot of of very interesting data for YVR.

The data I am highlighting is for international visitors and overall O&D from certain international markets. However, it does capture YVR's major markets. It would be interesting to see also New Zealand, The Philippines and perhaps some other areas but it does give a very clear picture of just how large YVR actually is as an inbound destination and an overall substantial O&D market.

It only looks at passenger volumes so no info on premium traffic, revenues, yields etc.

What it also shows is just how big the Asian markets are compared to most European ones. The winds have shifted. This should, therefore, explain a lot, in clear numbers why there really isn't much more service to Europe. There may be room for limited additional flights to Europe but note the seasonality and that YVR is already connected to the UK, Germany, Netherlands year-round and France, Switzerland and Iceland (almost forgot Iceland!) summer seasonal service. Most other European markets are probably below direct service levels.

I will stand by my opinion again ---> YVR is very well served (even to Europe) based on these facts presented.

Since this report was prepared there have been even further additions to routes and capacity to Asia which is where the momentum is continuing. However, there have been additions to Europe as well. And both major international markets have really seen huge traffic jumps in the last two years which just bumps up these figures even higher.

It's a lengthy document and is for the year-ended 30 June 2012, but inbound visitors is section 5, O&D is section 6.

Happy reading if you accept this mission ;-)

http://tpr.alberta.ca/tourism/programs-and-services/air-access/pdf/AlbertaAirAccessQualityStudyFinal.pdf

twoNeurons
Aug 28, 2014, 7:03 PM
Yeah, if you're on vacation for a week, then your limit would be that much higher and the car allows you to bring over larger items bought in Bellingham (as opposed to flying to YVR)

We recently flew Alaskan YVR-LAX with only carry-on but alcohol (liquids over 100mL) meant we had to pay the additional $25. We likely would have purchased in Seattle or Bellingham if we flew stateside.

That's another fee that people don't always take into account.

That being said, the price difference from YVR just wasn't enough to warrant the inconvenience of a Seattle trip. Allegiant was the same price as Alaskan from Bellingham.. though Alaska had a transfer in Seattle. Even for 5 pax, YVR made more sense.

SpongeG
Aug 28, 2014, 8:24 PM
I flew with allegiant to san fran (oakland) once - it was fine, it was worth paying for a few extras like pre-boarding, it guaranteed us a spot for our carry ons - we never took checked in baggage and seemed to be that the majority of the people didn't either cause by the time general boarding started the luggage racks were pretty full, people had to put their luggage far from their seats. that would suck.

the flight itself was fine, parking was cheaper than YVR and the flight price was more than 50% cheaper than flying out of YVR even with "upgrades" and crossing the border wasn't too bad. I'd do it again.

as for flying out of seattle, my friends flew to new york last year from seattle it was $335 all taxes fees etc included each, even staying a night in seattle and the bus cost to get there worked out cheaper for them than taking the equivalent flight from YVR, the same flight at that time when they looked was just over $700 each and i think the only airport option was newark, they flew into JFK from seattle

trofirhen
Aug 28, 2014, 9:34 PM
..........................
as for flying out of seattle, my friends flew to new york last year from seattle it was $335 all taxes fees etc included each, even staying a night in seattle and the bus cost to get there worked out cheaper for them than taking the equivalent flight from YVR, the same flight at that time when they looked was just over $700 each and i think the only airport option was newark, they flew into JFK from seattle
Too bad some low-cost carrier: Jet Blue, Southwest, WestJet, whoever, can't pick up that route out of YVR and make it work.

Johnny Aussie
Aug 29, 2014, 12:14 AM
Looks like Westjet is really getting cozy with YVR's Asian carriers.

Copy of tweet from airlineroute.net

"China Airlines plans to start codeshare service with WestJet from 03SEP14."

No route information available yet. Will update when that happens.

So WS now going to be code sharing with CI along with CZ, MU, KE, JL, CX ex YVR. Pretty much all non Star Alliance carriers (CA, BR and NH) (gee I wonder why). The only remaining carriers would be Philippine and Sichuan... But could see that happening too.

Really a good way of shoring up connecting traffic.

a very long weekend
Aug 29, 2014, 12:45 AM
this is so so smart for westjet and I'm just surprised a) that the Chinese airline had to go this route; and b) that it has taken this long. likely west jet has been pursuing this forever and finally the Chinese airline just gave up trying to muscle into yvr (for the moment).

Johnny Aussie
Aug 29, 2014, 1:08 AM
this is so so smart for westjet and I'm just surprised a) that the Chinese airline had to go this route; and b) that it has taken this long. likely west jet has been pursuing this forever and finally the Chinese airline just gave up trying to muscle into yvr (for the moment).

It is a smart move by Westjet. Getting in to bed with both Oneworld and Skyteam carriers. Basically makes it more likely you would connect onto Westjet flights than Air Canada when arriving/departing on one of these carriers. I don't think they "had" to go this route but it just helps streamline the travel experience which just makes them more competitive. Not quite sure about your "muscle into YVR" comment though.

Code share agreements are like any other agreement. They take time and careful consideration, including government approvals. In this case it's a good fit for both carriers.

SpongeG
Aug 29, 2014, 6:43 AM
it looks like they have changed the security for pier b - when i walked through yesterday after arriving it seemed different from the other side, will find out when i use it next week looks like there is more space for lining up now

security there has shifted, its been moved to the right and feels more open, the old security area is all blocked off now, it will be great if it is enlarged and more like the other gates which air canada uses - but waiting in there for a westjet flight feels so ghetto

trofirhen
Aug 29, 2014, 10:57 AM
Looks like Westjet is really getting cozy with YVR's Asian carriers.

..........................
So WS now going to be code sharing with CI along with CZ, MU, KE, JL, CX ex YVR. Pretty much all non Star Alliance carriers (CA, BR and NH) (gee I wonder why). The only remaining carriers would be Philippine and Sichuan... But could see that happening too.

Really a good way of shoring up connecting traffic.

Do you think Westjet might join an airline alliance? Is it large enough?
Is there a possibility of its being accepted by Skytem or OneWorld?
Is WJ interested in doing so?

Canadian74
Aug 29, 2014, 4:52 PM
They probably need a proper premium cabin before joining any alliance.

twoNeurons
Aug 29, 2014, 5:18 PM
Do you think Westjet might join an airline alliance? Is it large enough?
Is there a possibility of its being accepted by Skytem or OneWorld?
Is WJ interested in doing so?

I'm not sure it make a whole lot of sense to choose an alliance yet. In Vancouver, at least, Star Alliance is a super strong alliance. United, Air Canada, Air China, ANA, Air NZ, Lufthansa, EVA all have major routes here. WestJet actually needs both OneWorld AND SkyTeam to be able to compete with Air Canada internationally and grow up to be "Canadian Airlines 2.0"

OneWorld has traditionally been more premium/exclusive (BA, Cathay, JAL, Qantas...) and WestJet's not really there yet. By choosing Airlines, they can get the strengths of SkyTeam & OneWorld in Asia(JAL, CX, Korean Air) and the strength of OneWorld & SkyTeam in Europe(BA, AF, KLM). In addition, they scoop up China Eastern and China Southern to fill out the rest of Asia.

At this point, for an airline its size, its strategy is sound not to join an alliance and lose either BA & JAL or CX,KE,KLM and AF.

I suspect it may decide to join SkyTeam one day, but it would be a loss of prestige to lose both BA and JAL (not to mention AA for US connections). It really depends on how WestJet wants to position itself in the next decade. Also, the last year has seen some rough waters for SkyTeam... so I'd imagine WestJet would want to carefully consider such a big change before committing anyhow

twoNeurons
Aug 29, 2014, 6:52 PM
as for flying out of seattle, my friends flew to new york last year from seattle it was $335 all taxes fees etc included each, even staying a night in seattle and the bus cost to get there worked out cheaper for them than taking the equivalent flight from YVR, the same flight at that time when they looked was just over $700 each and i think the only airport option was newark, they flew into JFK from seattle

From YVR, you'll typically fly into Newark, as it's a United hub. Cathay Pacific has a flight to JFK.

That being said, the two airports are pretty much identical timewise if you're taking the train into town.

$335 is dirt cheap, though. You typically will pay $500, though I've seen it around $450 from YVR.

SpongeG
Aug 29, 2014, 8:55 PM
i paid $635 taxes etc incl. to fly from edmonton to new york i had to fly via houston texas. they now have a direct flight from edmonton to new york (newark) which started about 2 months after i flew, i think its seasonal though. I might go to new york in october from edmonton again.

Johnny Aussie
Aug 29, 2014, 9:53 PM
I'm not sure it make a whole lot of sense to choose an alliance yet.

Exactly. Their strategy is best to stay out of an alliance.... for now at least. By carefully building up decent airline-by-airline agreements they can do that to best strategise their network. Join an alliance and, most likely, lose a huge chunk of those overnight. Some airlines do maintain code-shares outside their alliance though.

Seems to be working for them in YVR anyway.

Johnny Aussie
Aug 29, 2014, 9:56 PM
From YVR, you'll typically fly into Newark, as it's a United hub. Cathay Pacific has a flight to JFK.

From YVR you can fly non-stop to:

EWR on AC (year-round) or UA (summer seasonal)
JFK on CX (year-round) or DL (summer seasonal)

There are very strong hints that PR will also commence flights from Manila to New York via YVR. Whether these flights go into EWR or JFK though? If that does happen, this route may be getting just a tad crowded.

Johnny Aussie
Aug 29, 2014, 10:02 PM
they now have a direct flight from edmonton to new york (newark) which started about 2 months after i flew, i think its seasonal though. I might go to new york in october from edmonton again.

You might want to get onto that quickly. United is discontinuing the route on 24 October due to the flight "not meeting their expectations." No indication this route is coming back or being made seasonal though.

Johnny Aussie
Aug 30, 2014, 1:04 AM
Nice little video update showing how this project is really taking shape and some more details of what's inside, above and underneath :-).

Also a good highlight of what they are doing to speed international <---> domestic connections as part of "The Gateway Project." This will come in handy for Westjet and all their code share partners ;-)

Looking good!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPJDln6XY4g

Hourglass
Aug 30, 2014, 2:58 PM
There are very strong hints that PR will also commence flights from Manila to New York via YVR. Whether these flights go into EWR or JFK though? If that does happen, this route may be getting just a tad crowded.

I took PR from EWR to YVR back when they flew the route using MD-11s before it got canceled. There were maybe 15 people on the entire plane. If my experience was anywhere indicative of their loads, PR was bleeding money big-time. With the added competition, I'm sure how different it would be for PR this time around.

YYCguys
Aug 30, 2014, 4:12 PM
Also a good highlight of what they are doing to speed international <---> domestic connections as part of "The Gateway Project." This will come in handy for Westjet and all their code share partners ;-)

Looking good!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPJDln6XY4g

What is the Gateway Project?

A recent guest on my plane (SFO to YVR) asked me about connecting in YVR to her flight to China and didn't use the words Gateway Project but was under the impression that she didn't have to clear Canadian customs in YVR as she was transiting to China. Is this the Gateway Project that she is referring to? And if so, how is it possible to avoid customs when one is entering another country?

Cage
Aug 30, 2014, 7:10 PM
What is the Gateway Project?

A recent guest on my plane (SFO to YVR) asked me about connecting in YVR to her flight to China and didn't use the words Gateway Project but was under the impression that she didn't have to clear Canadian customs in YVR as she was transiting to China. Is this the Gateway Project that she is referring to? And if so, how is it possible to avoid customs when one is entering another country?
Yes pax can clear from us to international and international to international without seeing primary inspection line at CBSA. The sterile transfer area is located on international arrivals connecting corridor immediately to the right of the escalators to CBSA primary inspection line. The transfer pax still see CBSA Agent however just a brief stop to confirm appropriate documents and they are through to international departures area.
The above described process is not gateway project. I don't have a definitive description of the YVR gateway project, however it appears to be anything related to establishing YVR as the primary gateway to Asia.
As to the concept of having international or transborder pax arrive on the A-B side of the airport, bring your walking shoes folks. The only benefactor of this strategy would be WS ops, they could turn around aircraft a lot quicker by gating most inbound transborder flights on the AB side. However without secondary CBSA processing area, all pax would have to shlep over to international terminal. Connecting pax get a double dose of exercise as they walk back to AB concourse to catch their domestic flight.

trofirhen
Aug 30, 2014, 7:14 PM
Yes pax can clear from us to international and international to international without seeing primary inspection line at CBSA. The sterile transfer area is located on international arrivals connecting corridor immediately to the right of the escalators to CBSA primary inspection line. The transfer pax still see CBSA Agent however just a brief stop to confirm appropriate documents and they are through to international departures area. ..........

What is the sterile tansfer area, please?

Johnny Aussie
Aug 30, 2014, 7:43 PM
What is the Gateway Project?

A recent guest on my plane (SFO to YVR) asked me about connecting in YVR to her flight to China and didn't use the words Gateway Project but was under the impression that she didn't have to clear Canadian customs in YVR as she was transiting to China. Is this the Gateway Project that she is referring to? And if so, how is it possible to avoid customs when one is entering another country?

That's the term the engineer used in the clip. Perhaps something they are working on.

Johnny Aussie
Aug 30, 2014, 7:49 PM
I took PR from EWR to YVR back when they flew the route using MD-11s before it got canceled. There were maybe 15 people on the entire plane. If my experience was anywhere indicative of their loads, PR was bleeding money big-time. With the added competition, I'm sure how different it would be for PR this time around.

Yeah PR beats to a different drum for sure. Not sure how they'll do but they sure seem determined to do it. On the other hand the market has changed a lot in the last 10 years. Immigration from The Philippines has exploded since then. I don't doubt the YVR-MNL segment but with so many options from NYC-Asia I don't see this as a sure winner as any pax would have to one-stop somewhere. And like I said, the YVR-NYC route is gonna be crowded if it does happen... but really sounds like it is.

I wish that Tourism Report for Alberta had Philippines data as I bet that is one market that has increased one of the highest in that period. VFR mainly of course.

Genauso
Aug 30, 2014, 11:20 PM
Canada Post sorting facility at Sea Island

In this month's Globe and Mail magazine, they did a feature on Canada Post and the location to best exemplify their strategy was the new Richmond sorting facility. The online version does not have the photographs, but it does have a quirky video.

Video (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/video/video-canada-post-is-changing-but-its-sheer-size-will-still-blow-you-away/article20217646/) (make sure to enable all cookies)
Article (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-magazine/canada-post-bets-on-efficiency-to-prevent-becoming-digital-roadkill/article20192738/?page=all)

Judging by the photos/video, the sorting lines only had 20-50% of the trays occupied. I think the downtown location is still in use, perhaps just for downtown deliveries, but I am guessing they would prefer to switch over to the new automated facility before the Christmas season surge.

Judging by the article's comments, Canada Post's e-commerce/parcel strategy is still but a veneer and leaning heavily on unique integration with their largest shippers. They do after all enforce copyright on postal code maps or the use thereof.

Still, they are the better than the alternative at UPS for customs brokerage fees, speed that doesn't involve multiple stops on the way to their single hub in Louisville, and price. I hope they do well, soon offer the same services to small businesses as they are doing with their biggest clients, and contribute to significantly reducing the price differential of retail items across the border.

Cage
Aug 30, 2014, 11:29 PM
What is the sterile tansfer area, please?

Sterile transfer area is a space behind security where pax from international origins walk to primary inspection line. The are is considered sterile because pax cannot mix with other types ( eg domestic, international departures, etc.).

However the YVRAA calls this area intransit facility. In transit facility processes the following connecting passenger types, international origin pax destined to USA, international arrival pax destined to international city.

Johnny Aussie
Aug 31, 2014, 12:27 AM
This seems to be the biggest jump in capacity in winter scheds for years, if not ever at YVR.

So about 68 daily - 43 mainline (including rouge due to size of a/c) and about 25 Express-ish.

Comparing to last winter:

GAINS

AIR CANADA

HNL - rouged - 1 daily 763 (up from 6 weekly 763 mainline)
OGG - rouged - 1 daily 763 (up from 6 weekly 763 mainline)
LAS - rouged - 2 daily 319 (up from 1 daily mainline 320)
LAX - rouged - 1 daily 763 and 2 daily 319 (up from 4 daily E90s)
PSP **NEW** - 3 weekly rouge 319
PHX **NEW** - daily rouge 319
SFO - rouged - 3 daily 319 (up from 3 daily mainline E90s)

ALASKA

LAX - increase in capacity due to 739s on most flights

AMERICAN

LAX **NEW** - 2 daily CR9s

DELTA

LAX **NEW** - seasonal daily E75 for about 3 weeks over peak Xmas period
SEA **NEW** - 4 daily CR7
MSP - up 2 weekly to 14 weekly E75s

UNITED

ORD - increases to 3 daily for 3 weeks over peak Xmas period. Increases to 4 daily effective 12 Feb (about 2 months earlier than usual for that increase)
SFO - increases to 5 daily for 3 weeks over the peak Xmas period (more Express flying during this period)

WESTJET

PSP - increases by one weekly over the peak winter period. Westjet seems to have put the brakes on transborder capacity this winter.

LOSSES

DL - SLC - down 4 weekly to 7 weekly only
UA - IAH - down 1 weekly to 7 weekly only

And I think that's it.... for now

Genauso
Aug 31, 2014, 2:13 AM
I thought I was being emphatically positive by going out of my way to format and explicitly compare YVR to HKG. Yes YVR has good service today. I care less about direct flights to Europe, it does make sense to go through at least one hub in my opinion and that's unlikely to change. I wasn't asking for direct flights throughout the southern hemisphere, a better connection to Miami or a Texas hub would be smart though.

If I veered negative, it was just to build a moment of tension to set the stage for a future of positive change.

North Pacific air route development: Part 4. Japan's hub role diminishes; Partnerships remain weak
CAPA > Aviation Analysis > North Pacific air route development: Part 4. Japan's hub role diminishes; Partnerships remain weak
26th August, 2014 (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/north-pacific-air-route-development-part-4-japans-hub-role-diminishes-partnerships-remain-weak-183391)
summary: Japan is still competing hard, but the USA and China are now paying more attention and resources to growing market share.


Wanting to be better is not a bad thing. I think Copenhagen is similar enough in many ways for it to be a good place for Vancouver to learn from. Look at where they were 94 years ago = )
With trans-polar flights at the testing stage and the northwest passage opening to Arctic shipping, Vancouver will think differently of itself in the future. There's room to bring add a Finland, Sweden, and Norway to our coasts to fly back and forth with.
Principal Airline routes of the world.
source: London Geographical Society, circa 1920
http://i.imgur.com/rwArLfqh.jpg (http://imgur.com/rwArLfq)

Cage
Aug 31, 2014, 2:35 AM
I have gone back an reviewed the youtube tape. It appears that all YVR has done is maintained the possibility that at some point in the future there exists a possibility for international/domestic swing gates on pier A/B. I just hope this plan never comes to fruition.

My major beef is with the primary A/B tennant, WS is well known for demanding renovations to suit their needs only not require them a few years after the airport has installed the renos. The YVR example is the dual loading bridges on the A pier. Built by YVRAA, used by WS extensively for a few years and then almost completely discarded, only to be brought back for a few limited use.

YYC however has its share of WS mix ups. For example WS wanted flow through open style checkin, YYCAA paid for the renos only to have WS leave the area 3 years after install. On the flip side, atleast WS paid for the dual bridges on gate 40. The replacement for the dual bridge gate was an extra area for WS Encore with 4 ground load positions. Nice area but totally useless money spend once international terminal opens.

Johnny Aussie
Aug 31, 2014, 5:30 AM
I have gone back an reviewed the youtube tape. It appears that all YVR has done is maintained the possibility that at some point in the future there exists a possibility for international/domestic swing gates on pier A/B. I just hope this plan never comes to fruition.

Upon review again it certainly was clear the extension and renos to A/B have the future in mind which is so important with airport expansions these days. Who knows what they have up their sleeves but good to see they are not relying on their current position as the be all end all to the future. YVR is ramping itself up to remain competitive with whatever competition there is going to be out there and there will be plenty. Ease of connections and rapid baggage transfers are going to be critical factors. Also the enhanced food options will be a nice bonus.

deasine
Sep 1, 2014, 1:35 AM
Regarding WS/swing gates, I don't think this was designed particularly for WS per say. If you look at the Masterplan for YVR, there was previous discussion of not separating terminals by destination type (domestic, int'l, transborder), but rather by airline. The reason why such a layout is better is it allows smoother int'l connections. Currently, WS passengers connecting onwards to CI flights for instance (and this has existed prior to the codeshare agreement) have quite a long transfer at YVR. Bringing these closer together will improve connections.

craneSpotter
Sep 1, 2014, 3:37 AM
What is the Gateway Project?



I suspect she is referring to the air corridor strategies that are part of the Pacific Gateway program (i.e. Canada Line to YVR, elimination of the Aviation Fuel Tax for international flights). A key part of the strategy is to expedite the transit of international passengers to connecting domestic (and other international) flights and speed up baggage handling systems.

http://www.pacificgateway.gov.bc.ca/air.htm

Johnny Aussie
Sep 1, 2014, 8:48 AM
There are very strong hints that PR will also commence flights from Manila to New York via YVR. Whether these flights go into EWR or JFK though? If that does happen, this route may be getting just a tad crowded.

Weren't we just talking about this?

I haven't seen the CTA decision on this yet so that may be why the YVR-JFK-YVR sectors aren't available for booking yet... Cannot sell without the rights to sell.

http://airlineroute.net/2014/09/01/pr-jfkyyz-s15/

Effective 15 March 2015 PR launching 4 weekly MNL-YVR-JFK. Also effective the next day PR will increase to 4 weekly MNL-YVR-YYZ. Currently the schedule still shows 3 standalone MNL-YVR-MNL flights. So 11 weekly YVR-MNL. I have a sneaking suspicion the standalones will get dropped. In any event that's a lot of PR metal that will be flying in and out of YVR. Flights to JFK and the YVR standalone flights to be operated by 343s and the YYZ flights to be operated by 77Ws.

So this could mean 5 airlines in the YVR - NYC market next summer. AC and UA to EWR and DL, CX and now PR to JFK.

Perhaps ORD will be next as that has been discussed and they have a few frequency allotments left.

It's been 17 years since PR last flew to NYC (EWR) via YVR on MD11 aircraft. The market is a different beast now so I guess we will see how this all pans out.

Johnny Aussie
Sep 2, 2014, 7:57 PM
Continuing to soar. Very strong domestic, transborder and Asia Pacific again.

Wow! Busiest month ever.

Overall up 132,400 (7.3%) to 1,940,652. YTD up 8.1%
Domestic up 63,600 (6.9%) to 985,392. YTD up 6.9%
Transborder up 36,900 (8.2%) to 485,770. YTD up 8.8%
Asia Pacific up 32,500 (12.9%) to 284,295. YTD up 13.6%
Europe up 200 (0.1%) to 167,549. YTD up 6.2%
Misc Int'l down 800 (-4.3%) to 17,646. YTD up 2.0%

Fascinating looking at Europe. Scheduled is up 5.4% but charter down 10.5%. Not sure about the charter flights being down. Perhaps Icelandair taking some of those pax. UK July stats have Air Transat figures up so not sure about the other routes then.

Asia Pacific capacity increase was ~ 29,000 so the increase in pax is exceeding new supply.

August should smash some more records. Overall should hit over 2M, domestic over 1M and transborder should exceed half a million!

Also cargo turbo charged 19.2% increase to over 25,600 tonnes in July. The new Asian freighter routes plus additional domestic capacity showing strength.

trofirhen
Sep 2, 2014, 8:15 PM
Is Lufthansa doing YVR-MUC this summer? (I know I should know, but I don't. Sorry)

Johnny Aussie
Sep 2, 2014, 9:44 PM
Is Lufthansa doing YVR-MUC this summer? (I know I should know, but I don't. Sorry)

Yes, daily 333.

Johnny Aussie
Sep 3, 2014, 11:17 AM
Looks like Virgin Atlantic will not be returning next summer.

First time in awhile I've had to deliver "negative" news about YVR services :P

http://airlineroute.net/2014/09/03/vs-s15/

Virgin's announcement ---> http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/gb/en/travel-information/customer-service/latest-news/network-changes.html

Looks like VS is strengthening its JV operations with Delta therefore redeploying the aircraft off the YVR-LHR route.

The route was to return next summer with 5 weekly A330-300.

Johnny Aussie
Sep 3, 2014, 11:39 AM
According to airlineroute.net KLM is increasing capacity on YVR-AMS next summer to a daily 333 replacing a mix of 333/332. I actually thought this was the case this summer already?

http://airlineroute.net/2014/09/03/kl-s15update3/

Johnny Aussie
Sep 3, 2014, 10:31 PM
Now it's PEK's turn!

Effective 1 Feb Air Canada replaces the 763 with the 788 on AC29/AC30.

AC29/30 returns to the 77W effective for the summer scheds.

This leaves YVR-ICN as the only 763 Pacific Route for the winter scheds.

deasine
Sep 3, 2014, 10:42 PM
This leaves YVR-ICN as the only 763 Pacific Route for the winter scheds.

I'm really hoping to see OZ takeover or become a new carrier with some sort of joint agreement with AC on this route...

The VS move is disappointing but not entirely surprising. Especially when DL now operates SEA-YVR, DL will be trying to find every opportunity to feed traffic through this regional route.

craneSpotter
Sep 3, 2014, 10:49 PM
The VS move is disappointing but not entirely surprising. Especially when DL now operates SEA-YVR, DL will be trying to find every opportunity to feed traffic through this regional route.

DL did just start non-stop SEA-LHR this past March (adding to CDG & AMS).

Johnny Aussie
Sep 3, 2014, 10:50 PM
I'm really hoping to see OZ takeover or become a new carrier with some sort of joint agreement with AC on this route...

The VS move is disappointing but not entirely surprising. Especially when DL now operates SEA-YVR, DL will be trying to find every opportunity to feed traffic through this regional route.

Yeah bummer. Reading the whole VS strategy is exactly what Air Berlin did a few years ago. They pulled all the non-One World strongholds.

VS is really ramping up their DL JV. So looking at their route juggling they are really throwing more capacity at the DL hubs and other DL focus cities and pulling out of non-core long-haul and ultra long-haul routes. Doesn't leave them with many international routes outside the USA. As we saw in the O&D data from 2013, the UK is and will still be a huge market for YVR. This will also help AC and BA, and to a lesser extent TS. Not that they really need it!

As for SEA, yes it is still early, but international traffic only increased 2.95% (~ 10,700 pax only) in July 2014 from July 2013. I still find that really amazing considering their huge increase in capacity - particularly on DL to Asia and Europe as all of these additions would have been fully ramped up by July. What is really REALLY amazing is DL's international numbers (obviously a gain) were almost completely wiped out by the loss of just one route by UA (the SEA-NRT route axed). I'm a total stats geek along with being an avgeek so I love analysing numbers (my CA/Finance background etc). Helps when trying to present "arguments" about why things happen.

As for Asiana, there is (was) a strong possibility that they would add their own YVR-ICN flights but I think post OZ214 their expansion plans have been cut-back. The expectation was as the A388s came onboard this would free up some smaller aircraft to launch routes like ICN-YVR. Whether these would replace the existing AC route or go in as a second flight. Perhaps they will launch YYZ. We will see what happens!

Denscity
Sep 3, 2014, 11:00 PM
Well we lost Virgin Atlantic but gained another Dreamliner. Would still prefer keeping Virgin but what can we do. Wasn't YVR the only westcoast airport to have VS at least in the beginning? Thought that's what I recall.

Johnny Aussie
Sep 4, 2014, 12:52 AM
Well we lost Virgin Atlantic but gained another Dreamliner. Would still prefer keeping Virgin but what can we do. Wasn't YVR the only westcoast airport to have VS at least in the beginning? Thought that's what I recall.

Yeah it is too bad... but that's the way it goes... win some, lose some!

No they have been going into LAX for years and SFO after that. They even had a crack at YYZ (not west coast obviously!) awhile ago too.

officedweller
Sep 4, 2014, 1:31 AM
Go to "Airport and Transportation" and there's pages for:

a YVR Post-Disaster Facility;
the Pier A Commuter Terminal; and
a Jetset Valet Parking Facility?

http://www.studioonearchitecture.ca/

teriyaki
Sep 4, 2014, 1:57 AM
Go to "Airport and Transportation" and there's pages for:

a YVR Post-Disaster Facility;
the Pier A Commuter Terminal; and
a Jetset Valet Parking Facility?

http://www.studioonearchitecture.ca/

Wow that is an annoying website. Wish they had more pictures on there.

The Jetset project, if its been confirmed looks to be on the same side as the new outlet mall from the pictures. Looks interesting.

craneSpotter
Sep 4, 2014, 6:53 PM
Canada Post's 700,000 sq ft. pacific processing facility officially opens today beside YVR. It is strategically located next to YVR for easy access to air cargo facilities. It has 900 employees.

It is one of three international access points into Canada. Article (link below) says that after the USA, most of the international shipments/mail into Canada now come from the Asia-pacific region.

Sounds like Canada post is ramping up to handle considerably more e-commerce shipping, that may be their future. Ecommerce shipments are up 29% so far this year over last. Apparently you see lots of Amazon and Best Buy (etc.) boxes.

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Canada+Post+Richmond+mail+processing+plant+sorts+letters+hour/10172381/story.html

officedweller
Sep 4, 2014, 8:18 PM
GlobalTV's Morning News had a reporter in there this morning and the emphasis was definitely on e-commerce shipping.