PDA

You are viewing a trimmed-down version of the SkyscraperPage.com discussion forum.  For the full version follow the link below.

View Full Version : YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 [74] 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136

trofirhen
May 25, 2015, 12:58 AM
https://www.aircanada.com/en/about/media/presentations/documents/investor_day_2013.pdf

Page 57. This is not an announcement. This route map shows possible routes that the 787 could fly based on range and a market that is right-sized for a 787. No mention of 2015. The only new route on this map that has been officially announced is Delhi.

Unless you are referring to something else.
No, I was wrong on this and you were right on. I thought this was a concretized thing, but it's not, as you say. :facepalm:

Johnny Aussie
May 26, 2015, 12:31 PM
Funny we were just talking about this!

Perhaps YVR-BNE on AC not far off after all....

http://www.ausbt.com.au/air-canada-tips-new-brisbane-vancouver-route-for-boeing-787?utm_source=internal&utm_medium=flipper&utm_campaign=home-flipper

According to the Australian manager of Air Canada, an "officially(sic) announcement is due 'very soon.'"

Fingers crossed for another YVR route!

thebus
May 26, 2015, 6:31 PM
Would have preferred MEL but BNE would still be great. Anyway idea what potential frequency would look like?

Johnny Aussie
May 26, 2015, 7:39 PM
Would have preferred MEL but BNE would still be great. Anyway idea what potential frequency would look like?

I would guess 3 - 4 per week to start sometime in 2016.

trofirhen
May 26, 2015, 8:06 PM
Whereas (and let's hope it stays that way for a while), Seattle has only Hawaii in its Oceania flight roster - along with YVR,
Vancouver already has Manila, Sydney, and Auckland. Seattle does not. Add Brisbane and Melbourne in maybe the next five (hopefully fewer) years,
and you'd get five Pacific destinations that Seattle doesn't have.
Also.... although the Paris-Tahiti Great Circle rout goes DIRECTLY through LAX, via YVR it is only 50-something miles longer !! (... $$fuel, you know) ...
Please observe the links if you find that hard to believe:
http://www.airmilescalculator.com/distance3/cdg-to-lax-ppt/
http://www.airmilescalculator.com/distance3/cdg-to-yvr-ppt/

We might get at least seasonal flights to Tahiti if AF decided it was worth it, and a normally lower $CAD (if that works out as cheaper tickets than from the US)
might attract people from Seattle and Portland for South Pacific flights in general, and that's a solid air market, (even just Seattle and Vancouver, if it came right down to it).
Then, Vancouver would truly become an Oceania hub. Wishful thinking, perhaps? Feedback appreciated.

twoNeurons
May 26, 2015, 10:47 PM
I would just like to take a moment and say that finding reasonable flights on Aeroplan is almost impossible.

A flight to Central Europe (like Venice) is 60k points return and you pay $600 in fees. 90% of the flights route you through YYZ, FRA or likely... both... because... Luftthansa.

Trying to book a flight via United or Swiss Air to avoid scam fees is next to impossible.

Any veterans here book many reward flights on Aeroplan?

(Yes, I know this is the YVR thread... but I'm flying out of YVR...).

Also, wouldn't it be nice to have a direct Swiss Air flight? I hear their product is really good.

s211
May 26, 2015, 10:57 PM
I would just like to take a moment and say that finding reasonable flights on Aeroplan is almost impossible.

It's even worse trying to book business class on Aeroplan. You've got better odds in Vegas.

Hourglass
May 26, 2015, 11:01 PM
I would just like to take a moment and say that finding reasonable flights on Aeroplan is almost impossible.

A flight to Central Europe (like Venice) is 60k points return and you pay $600 in fees. 90% of the flights route you through YYZ, FRA or likely... both... because... Luftthansa.

Trying to book a flight via United or Swiss Air to avoid scam fees is next to impossible.

Any veterans here book many reward flights on Aeroplan?

(Yes, I know this is the YVR thread... but I'm flying out of YVR...).

Also, wouldn't it be nice to have a direct Swiss Air flight? I hear their product is really good.

There's Edelweiss, a subsidiary of Swiss International Airlines, which I think does YVR-ZRH 3x/weekly during the summer. I'd love to see Swiss @ YVR but sadly, don't think it's going to happen anytime soon. I'm guessing most of their near-term growth plans are in Asia.

LeftCoaster
May 26, 2015, 11:33 PM
It's even worse trying to book business class on Aeroplan. You've got better odds in Vegas.

Really? I've always found it quite simple booking business class with aeroplan (flying international).

I always book ages in advance when I use aeroplan points though, for short notice they are more or less useless.

s211
May 27, 2015, 12:37 AM
Really? I've always found it quite simple booking business class with aeroplan (flying international).

I always book ages in advance when I use aeroplan points though, for short notice they are more or less useless.

Vancouver to Nice, business class, booked as long as possible beforehand (300 days, or something like that):

Vancouver - Seattle - Chicago - Zurich - Nice

The depths we'll scrape to travel business class for cheap!

deasine
May 27, 2015, 2:50 AM
Vancouver to Nice, business class, booked as long as possible beforehand (300 days, or something like that):

Vancouver - Seattle - Chicago - Zurich - Nice

The depths we'll scrape to travel business class for cheap!

France is a bit of a SkyTeam territory. At the looks of it, it looks like you are on United and saved on fuel surcharges!

As a rule of thumb with any premium cabin, one should be booking very early, or approximately 1-2 months in advance, or literally the next day.

casper
May 28, 2015, 2:26 AM
France is a bit of a SkyTeam territory. At the looks of it, it looks like you are on United and saved on fuel surcharges!

As a rule of thumb with any premium cabin, one should be booking very early, or approximately 1-2 months in advance, or literally the next day.

You might have better luck flying into Geneva. Geneva has more Star Alliance flights. I done the train and airport bus from Geneva into Grenoble. Nice is quite a bit longer but likely not that bad if you can get on a TGV. Geneva Train station is right in the airport, there also direct buses from the airport into France.

You want to also try some of the Italian airports such as Milan or places like Lyon or Marseile. I usually try to avoid Italian airports personally.

I have always been able book using Aeroplan or RBC Avion. I know some people have said the Aeropan search engine is not as good as ANA, they search there and then call into Aeroplan to do the booking.

Flying the US airlines also helps reduce the silly fees.

DDP
May 28, 2015, 1:33 PM
I would just like to take a moment and say that finding reasonable flights on Aeroplan is almost impossible.

A flight to Central Europe (like Venice) is 60k points return and you pay $600 in fees. 90% of the flights route you through YYZ, FRA or likely... both... because... Luftthansa.

Trying to book a flight via United or Swiss Air to avoid scam fees is next to impossible.

Any veterans here book many reward flights on Aeroplan?

(Yes, I know this is the YVR thread... but I'm flying out of YVR...).

Also, wouldn't it be nice to have a direct Swiss Air flight? I hear their product is really good.

Go to united websites, search for award tickets, find "super saver" tickets in blue, Call Aeroplan and book over the phone and pay the $30 fee.

Never booked Swiss so no help there.

Johnny Aussie
May 30, 2015, 1:23 AM
I sometimes wonder how much busier Canadian domestic travel would be if fares were offered like this....

Usually fares don't get this low... but I managed to snag 2 returns tix from Melbourne to Adelaide for $10 each way on Tiger Airways.. Including taxes and fees but excl credit card fees which are an additional $8.50 each way per pax. So for the two of us return it is costing us $74 all up.
We normally fly Virgin for the perks of status but for a flight the equivalent of YVR-YYC in flight time u can strap me to a middle seat... Don't care.
And it's my business paying for it so I am going to do some business anyway.

So wouldn't it be nice...... :)

Klazu
May 30, 2015, 2:22 AM
I can't remember was it Easyjet or Ryanair, but my friend flew from Berlin to Stockholm and back for 0.02€ - everything included! There are sometimes promo deals like that for just a few seats, but it's still funny. Can't go lower than that. :)

Johnny Aussie
May 30, 2015, 2:37 AM
Yeah this promo (thanks to twitter) was for 1,000 seats for $10. You just have to watch out for them.
Even normal promo fares can be pretty decent here. But it's the bloody credit card surcharges now that are creeping higher and higher.
Just nothing like that in Canada.
Even if the possible new entrants (Jetlines, Bucknaked or NewLeaf) offer opening promos I'd be curious what their fares would be.
This does encourage people to travel.
For example I go to SYD at least 8-10 times a year and sometimes the fares do get out of control. Since it's my money paying for it even when I travel I just won't go if the fares are too high. With over 80-90 flights per day each way (no joke) I can be quite flexible. If it's a have to be there kind of trip I still forego the perks to get a lower fare if I can.
So I hope Canada does get something like this but of course be able to do it profitably which seems to be the struggle here sometimes.

Johnny Aussie
May 30, 2015, 2:44 AM
Deal reached with the pilots union this week.

Why is this relevant to YVR?...... the betting man has put SYD-YVR as one of the launch routes for this aircraft (could even be THE launch route).

Just a matter of time now.... 2017 perhaps.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-closer-to-7879-dreamliner-order-after-striking-wage-deal-with-pilots-20150528-ghbc4d.html

So Air Canada you better enjoy your monopoly while you can even if you do launch YVR-BNE as well.

Johnny Aussie
May 30, 2015, 3:01 AM
More good news stories

Conference Board of Canada seems to agree with the BMO about BC's economic growth leading the country...

http://www.conferenceboard.ca/press/newsrelease/15-05-28/british_columbia_set_to_lead_provinces_in_economic_growth_this_year.aspx

And at the city level, Vancouver as well.

http://www.conferenceboard.ca/press/newsrelease/15-05-14/vancouver_among_top_economic_performers_in_2015.aspx

All of these predictions (if hold true) should keep CYVR ticking along nicely.... curious to see how the April numbers are... should know any day now!

trofirhen
May 30, 2015, 11:04 AM
Deal reached with the pilots union this week.

Why is this relevant to YVR?...... the betting man has put SYD-YVR as one of the launch routes for this aircraft (could even be THE launch route).

Just a matter of time now.... 2017 perhaps.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-closer-to-7879-dreamliner-order-after-striking-wage-deal-with-pilots-20150528-ghbc4d.html

So Air Canada you better enjoy your monopoly while you can even if you do launch YVR-BNE as well.
Are you saying Qantas would resume YVR-SYD maybe as of 2017 - on a year round basis? That'd be great !!! Like an old friend coming home.
And is there the possibilty of year-round to MEL within the next five years, do you think? (Whatever the airline).
If yes, YVR would have the PNW - Oceania market nailed down. We might get a number of US passengers,too, I rather think.

Johnny Aussie
May 31, 2015, 12:45 AM
With Aeromexico commencing daily flights to MEX in December from YVR I realise this route is targeting more than just sun seekers. On one hand the YVR-sun destination weekly count of flights shoots up by 7 on Dec 9. But looking at this map this new route will provide excellent one stop options to the top Central and South American destinations.

https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/1524705_778387488926577_1088935773286878156_n.jpg?oh=e345d321b81f83c30e4d1c2e5797357e&oe=55F95B7E

Every route is shorter via MEX than YYZ... for the 4 main YVR markets of LIM, SCL, EZE and GRU.... particularly for the western cities in SA.

Spork
May 31, 2015, 1:15 AM
With Aeromexico commencing daily flights to MEX in December from YVR I realise this route is targeting more than just sun seekers. On one hand the YVR-sun destination weekly count of flights shoots up by 7 on Dec 9. But looking at this map this new route will provide excellent one stop options to the top Central and South American destinations.

https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/1524705_778387488926577_1088935773286878156_n.jpg?oh=e345d321b81f83c30e4d1c2e5797357e&oe=55F95B7E

Every route is shorter via MEX than YYZ... for the 4 main YVR markets of LIM, SCL, EZE and GRU.... particularly for the western cities in SA.

I just came back from two weeks in Colombia and getting back was an absolute hassle. I woke up at 1:30am to catch a taxi at 2am to get to the airport at 3am, took a 5am flight to Panama City, had a 1 hour layover there, then arrived in Denver for a 7 hour layover. From door to door it took about 22 hours.

Connections through MEX will be very welcome for accessing that part of the world. I would better appreciate a connection to PTY, but perhaps MEX has good connections as well?

trofirhen
May 31, 2015, 1:35 AM
Good stuff, this Mexico City Connection.
If / when TWV goes through, I wonder if this might prod Air Canada into providing one or two nonstops from YVR to South America itself.
Like Lima and São Paulo, if nothing else.

Valley_Refugee
Jun 1, 2015, 2:47 AM
It's too bad that Benito Juarez is a customs nightmare and lacking in amenities. By distance and time, connections through MEX might make sense, but I'd rather go through IAH or YYZ experience-wise.

That being said, I've only been to MEX with Mexico City as my final destination. I'm not sure if they have a more efficient customs for transiting passengers, but I highly doubt it.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 1, 2015, 10:48 AM
It's too bad that Benito Juarez is a customs nightmare and lacking in amenities. By distance and time, connections through MEX might make sense, but I'd rather go through IAH or YYZ experience-wise.

That being said, I've only been to MEX with Mexico City as my final destination. I'm not sure if they have a more efficient customs for transiting passengers, but I highly doubt it.

I've been to MEX both as a destination and as a transit passenger. Don't recall it being remarkable or horrible but it has been awhile.

Perhaps Aeromexico wanted to beat Volaris to the punch... There seemed to be a bit of interest by more than one Mexican airline at YVR. But AM is still by far the biggest Mexican player after MX's demise. Perhaps we haven't seen the last of additional flights....

tayser
Jun 2, 2015, 11:12 AM
Would have preferred MEL

Get in line! :)

trofirhen
Jun 2, 2015, 4:08 PM
Would have preferred MEL...

Get in line! :)
MEL will come along sooner or later. (better sooner than later) ... but imagine having three destinations in Australia !! :D

Johnny Aussie
Jun 2, 2015, 7:42 PM
Certainly slower growth than March but really still very strong compared to others in the region.

http://www.yvr.ca/Libraries/Aviation_Marketing/Traffic_UPdate_April_2015.sflb.ashx

Every subcategory is up and overall up over 53,000 pax compared to April 2014.

Overall up 4.2% YTD 5.6%
Domestic up 1.8% YTD 2.4%
Transborder up 10.6% YTD 13.1%
Asia Pacific up 1.0% YTD 2.8%
Europe up 2.3% YTD 8.0%
Misc Intl up 15.1% YTD 6.2%
TTL INTL up 6.9% YTD 8.8%
Cargo up 5.4% YTD 13.6%

trofirhen
Jun 2, 2015, 8:19 PM
Certainly slower growth than March but really still very strong compared to others in the region.

Every subcategory is up and overall up over 53,000 pax compared to April 2014.

Overall up 4.2% YTD 5.6%
Domestic up 1.8% YTD 2.4%
Transborder up 10.6% YTD 13.1%
Asia Pacific up 1.0% YTD 2.8%
Europe up 2.3% YTD 8.0%
Misc Intl up 15.1% YTD 6.2%
TTL INTL up 6.9% YTD 8.8%
Cargo up 5.4% YTD 13.6%
Interesting breakdown, in fact. One would assume that Asia-Pacific would lead, but it's remarkably behind Europe, showing well in the YTD right behind TTL INTL.
(hope AF is a sufficient contributor to that:rolleyes: ... Europe numbers have tended to be a fair bit lower than this in previous years)
Regarding the impressive surge in Transborder, I wonder how much of that is O/D, and how much connecting flights?
If the % of flights is largely connection, it might be a subtle indication for other eventual direct route destinations (after final dest' % analysis, of course)

Johnny Aussie
Jun 2, 2015, 10:24 PM
Interesting breakdown, in fact. One would assume that Asia-Pacific would lead, but it's remarkably behind Europe, showing well in the YTD right behind TTL INTL.
(hope AF is a sufficient contributor to that:rolleyes: ... Europe numbers have tended to be a fair bit lower than this in previous years)
Regarding the impressive surge in Transborder, I wonder how much of that is O/D, and how much connecting flights?
If the % of flights is largely connection, it might be a subtle indication for other eventual direct route destinations (after final dest' % analysis, of course)

Asia Pacific in pax numbers has increased more than Europe but not in % terms.
LH to MUC started later this year so offset the AF new service.

trofirhen
Jun 2, 2015, 11:59 PM
Asia Pacific in pax numbers has increased more than Europe but not in % terms.
LH to MUC started later this year so offset the AF new service.
How would you assess the large increase in Transborder? Moreso O/D or connections?

Johnny Aussie
Jun 3, 2015, 12:03 AM
How would you assess the large increase in Transborder? Moreso O/D or connections?

I reckon both actually. O&D to LAX alone plus all the new rouge flights (and new routes to PSP and PHX) and Hawaii would have really pumped up the numbers though. We all know YVR is quite seasonal but transborder the last few months has exceeded the peak months of July and August just a couple of years ago.

Regardless overall growth international including transborder is pretty impressive. The upcoming winter additions are already lining up to be an even bigger year next year. I still think we may see some more rouge transborder action.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 3, 2015, 1:52 PM
OK... last one... promise!

http://www.rbc.com/economics/economic-reports/pdf/provincial-forecasts/provfcst-june2015.pdf

casper
Jun 3, 2015, 1:52 PM
I reckon both actually. O&D to LAX alone plus all the new rouge flights (and new routes to PSP and PHX) and Hawaii would have really pumped up the numbers though. We all know YVR is quite seasonal but transborder the last few months has exceeded the peak months of July and August just a couple of years ago.

Regardless overall growth international including transborder is pretty impressive. The upcoming winter additions are already lining up to be an even bigger year next year. I still think we may see some more rouge transborder action.

Rouge is also adding proper business class seats onto its aircraft. Connecting passengers to Asia is not there target but having both economy and business may help.

What would be good is Miami but I am not certain there is demand for a 767. Probably won't happen.

Reno use to be a big CP/Canadian destination, not certain there is much of an attraction there anymore. Not certain what new destinations they have available.

Most of the other destinations in the West are probably to small for A319.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 3, 2015, 8:35 PM
I envision more flights to both PSP (to daily) and LAS (to double daily).

I could see SAN and even SNA a few flights per week.

A couple of flights per week to MIA and MCO wouldn't be outrageous. 319s can do it but maybe not so comfortably!

More flights to KOA and maybe even one or two weekly to LIH.

And... RNO? Nobody goes to Reno anymore. Thomas Cook was going to do two flights per week from LGW starting later this year but pulled already. However, perhaps a couple of flights per week like the old Thursday, Sunday flights.

Always fun to speculate.

Derek
Jun 3, 2015, 9:07 PM
I'm still baffled at the lack of SAN service.

trofirhen
Jun 3, 2015, 10:34 PM
I'm still baffled at the lack of SAN service.
You're not the only one. :shrug:

casper
Jun 4, 2015, 2:44 AM
I envision more flights to both PSP (to daily) and LAS (to double daily).

I could see SAN and even SNA a few flights per week.

A couple of flights per week to MIA and MCO wouldn't be outrageous. 319s can do it but maybe not so comfortably!

More flights to KOA and maybe even one or two weekly to LIH.

And... RNO? Nobody goes to Reno anymore. Thomas Cook was going to do two flights per week from LGW starting later this year but pulled already. However, perhaps a couple of flights per week like the old Thursday, Sunday flights.

Always fun to speculate.

I think Vegas is at least twice daily now from time to time. Earlier in the year I missed my connection in Vancouver and was moved to a later Rogue flight.

Last time I was in RNO was three-four years ago. Most of the old strip is still there, In some ways is it more "real" than Vegas. That said, I am not a gambler, so am usually only there for meetings of some sort.

If they can do Miami on a A319, that would be an excellent route. I would have expected it to be a stretch.

I also don't understand why SNA and SAN are not being served.

2009
Jun 4, 2015, 3:13 AM
YVR April 2015 numbers are up!

http://www.yvr.ca/Libraries/Aviation_Marketing/Traffic_UPdate_April_2015.sflb.ashx


Overall (1,554,656) up 4.2% (YTD up 5.6%)

Domestic (792,306) up 1.8% (YTD 2.4%)
Transborder (403,363) up 10.6% (YTD up 13.1%)
Asia Pacific (220,997) up 1.0% (YTD up 2.8%)
Europe (87,587) up 2.3% (YTD up 8.0%)
Misc Int'l (50,403) up 15.1% (YTD up 6.2%)
Total Int'l (762,350) up 6.9% (YTD up 5.6%)
Cargo (20,244) up 5.4% (YTD up 13.6%)

dharper
Jun 4, 2015, 6:24 AM
Not that there is anything wrong with airline route discussion, but why is it in a thread about development of YVR and Sea Island?

Johnny Aussie
Jun 4, 2015, 7:34 AM
Not that there is anything wrong with airline route discussion, but why is it in a thread about development of YVR and Sea Island?

Well the precedent was set with post #9 almost 10 years ago....

I think pax numbers, cargo numbers, route developments etc all relate to actual development so it is an all encompassing discussion regarding YVR. Perhaps a new category should be created or change the name of this one... In any event like I said the precedent was set 10 years ago.... hard to change old habits!

excel
Jun 4, 2015, 9:17 PM
^I'll second that as I have been following since the start and I enjoy the diverse topics discussed on this thread.

deasine
Jun 4, 2015, 9:51 PM
Not that there is anything wrong with airline route discussion, but why is it in a thread about development of YVR and Sea Island?

Well it is the development of YVR but not necessarily from a physical perspective as many forumers tend to relate to (given this is a skyscraper forum). A separate thread may lead to too many dead-ends and canabalise the success of this thread topic.

trofirhen
Jun 4, 2015, 9:55 PM
HOURGLASS sent me this pdf about possible Air Canada expansion between now and 2018, (signed by Calin Rovinescu, of course)

All looks fine and dandy, but at the end of the day, there is STILL no YVR-DEL service, and NO YVR-MIA service.

Will Air India take us to Delhi? Will an American line come to Miami?

Also, nothing to Qatar or Dubai. Nothing. I note this because AC is starting up YYZ-DXB in the near future. We have nothing to the Middle East
(not even Istanbul), and are forced to change at YYZ for South America, and many other places. (the usual.......)

pdf:pages 37 to 41.

http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/media/presentations/documents/investor_day_2015.pdf

LeftCoaster
Jun 4, 2015, 10:31 PM
I don't know how much I'd read into a single graphic from an investors presentation. It's probably done with more of a stylistic approach in mind, not any actual business plans. It did also show a lot of things that aren't the case after all, including AC to Paris, Singapore, Sapporo etc... all of which I don't see happening.

In other news YVR finally updated their route map. Nice to see the new routes cluttering up the globe and a few new tails on the roster. Sure hope that's not the end of the additions though! http://www.yvr.ca/libraries/maps/destinations.sflb.ashx

Gordon
Jun 4, 2015, 11:09 PM
LAX Doesn't mention AA or Dl

Johnny Aussie
Jun 5, 2015, 12:35 AM
I don't know how much I'd read into a single graphic from an investors presentation. It's probably done with more of a stylistic approach in mind, not any actual business plans. It did also show a lot of things that aren't the case after all, including AC to Paris, Singapore, Sapporo etc... all of which I don't see happening.

In other news YVR finally updated their route map. Nice to see the new routes cluttering up the globe and a few new tails on the roster. Sure hope that's not the end of the additions though! http://www.yvr.ca/libraries/maps/destinations.sflb.ashx

Ugh! That route listing has sooo many errors on it...don't even know where to begin!

And agreed lets not get too carried away with the Investors Day graphic.

For YVR - what I do see as more likely:
CDG (rouge), CAN (although it is showing YYZ), TPE, NGO (rouge).
Also possibly BNE and MEL and less likely but maybe AKL as well.
Despite the chart not showing YVR-DEL that is certainly more likely than anything to the Middle East... The O&D to the Middle East is very small as I discussed when we talked about Turkish to IST.

I too see SIN and CTS as very unlikely.

Also lets not get too excited as this is only for overseas international and not USA expansion.

Let's rewind to the 2013 Investors Day graphic showing the potential 787 routes.. Only one of those routes YYZ-DEL is coming to fruition.

I'm an optimist but I'm also a realist...

At the end of the day.... Come on trofirhen... it's really not all that bad is it?

Edit: as for hubs it labels YYZ as its "global hub" and YUL and YVR as "specialised hubs." YVR to be transpacific focused which I guess is the case... so not sure what more we can ask for!

trofirhen
Jun 5, 2015, 12:56 AM
Ugh! ........

At the end of the day.... Come on trofirhen... it's really not all that bad is it?
No, it is indeed not that bad, but there's nothing anywhere listed, either in a formal business plan or a dream plan, that
has flights to either Delhi, or even Miami. And ... (although Politically Incorrect to say so) ... I'd love to see EK or QATAR in here,
once the India issue is resolved, not to mention a couple of direct (even same-plane) flights maybe on Aeromexico; São Paulo, Lima, if nothing else .... for the future, of course.
*And I think you yourself said, back during my Paris rants, that you could MAYBE see Rouge doing it seasonally.
OK. Maintenant, pffft, voilà!! ... Paris year round on Air France itself.
(Hard to predict these things, though, I will admit)

Johnny Aussie
Jun 5, 2015, 1:12 AM
No, it is indeed not that bad, but there's nothing anywhere listed, either in a formal business plan or a dream plan, that
has flights to either Delhi, or even Miami. And ... (although Politically Incorrect to say so) ... I'd love to see EK or QATAR in here,
once the India issue is resolved, not to mention a couple of direct (even same-plane) flights maybe on Aeromexico; São Paulo, Lima, if nothing else .... for the future, of course.
*And I think you yourself said, back during my Paris rants, that you could MAYBE see Rouge doing it seasonally.
OK. Maintenant, pffft, voilà!! ... Paris year round on Air France itself.
(Hard to predict these things, though, I will admit)

No believe me I completely understand your position as I've seen you say the same things many times. Not trying to diss you, and to be fair I've said this many times too but... YVR has made huge inroads in the last few years so many more than most global airports. New airlines, new destinations and more to come I am sure.
I just don't see the market viability of some of those destinations. Yes, some of these markets exist but are they big enough to warrant direct flights? Probably not. YVR is probably better connected than you think. Most major destinations can be reached from YVR with one stop. As has been discussed many times, YVR-DEL has a huge potential but serving it profitably is the risk.
Hey, I'm sure we would all love to see EK, QR etc here but those destinations lack the O&D needed. A vast majority of pax flying to either DXB or DOH would be connecting pax. We know the Canadian government allows routes more based on traffic flows between two cities/countries versus the potential connecting opportunities at certain hubs. Obviously DXB and DOH are two of those.

trofirhen
Jun 5, 2015, 2:49 AM
.............
Hey, I'm sure we would all love to see EK, QR etc here but those destinations lack the O&D needed. A vast majority of pax flying to either DXB or DOH would be connecting pax. We know the Canadian government allows routes more based on traffic flows between two cities/countries versus the potential connecting opportunities at certain hubs. Obviously DXB and DOH are two of those.
Thanks for that feedback, Johnny.
However, I still have a question. If the feds allow routes based more on O/D traffic flows than connecting hubs ....
Why is Toronto, - lined up to get DEL, - already allowed (on a strict basis, I admit) DBX on EK, with AC planning its own YYZ to DBX?
Surely there can't be that much O/D traffic there, (YYZ-DBX) even if it's a big market like Toronto. I don't quite get it. What am I not understanding?

Klazu
Jun 5, 2015, 4:08 AM
^I'll second that as I have been following since the start and I enjoy the diverse topics discussed on this thread.

I enjoy it as well, but my only beef is that there are certain topics that keep repeating every few months with nothing new to be added in. It's like listening to an broken record when (many times the same) people keep wondering about the same things over and over again.

My apologies if I sounds like a broken record at times, but I am sure you know what I mean here. Now carry on. :rolleyes:

Johnny Aussie
Jun 5, 2015, 4:08 AM
Thanks for that feedback, Johnny.
However, I still have a question. If the feds allow routes based more on O/D traffic flows than connecting hubs ....
Why is Toronto, - lined up to get DEL, - already allowed (on a strict basis, I admit) DBX on EK, with AC planning its own YYZ to DBX?
Surely there can't be that much O/D traffic there, (YYZ-DBX) even if it's a big market like Toronto. I don't quite get it. What am I not understanding?

1) DEL
I do not believe there is a restriction on YVR-DEL from the feds side. I am pretty sure AC or AI could start tomorrow if they wanted. However, that is not the issue in DEL's case. Again and not to beat a dead horse, there is a huge market for YVR-DEL but the issue is being able to serve that viably. Most of the traffic would be VFR traffic which tends to be low yielding and there are sooooo many onestop options to DEL as it is and that market is spread amongst so many airlines and routes already (I won't list them all) to pull enough of the targeted passengers on to a non-stop flight would require heavy discounting.
To put the Canada-India market into perspective. The YYZ-India market is almost 3 x the size of YVR-India which in turn is over 3 x the size of the next largest Canada-India market being YYC. Also, YYZ-India is more widespread as to intended destination although DEL is still #1. YVR, as we all know, is much more DEL-centric in its traffic. Now compared to Brazil - YYZ-India is over 4 x the size of YYZ-Brazil. One would expect more flights from YYZ-India based on this stat for example, but because it is a lower yielding route with plenty of one-stop options, there aren't as many direct flights as you would expect. Also, YYZ-India would have a lot more business traffic than YVR.
2) DXB
Believe it or not the YYZ-UAE market is a lot bigger than you think. It is far from being huge, but when compared to any market in Western Canada it certainly is. About 10 x bigger than both YVR-UAE and YYC-UAE. This is actually one of the very few world markets where YYC is almost as big as YVR. Also, to put it into perspective it is bigger than YVR-France and on par with YYC-Germany to give you an idea of how large it is. So the feds have allowed the number of flights based on the O&D of the market. Air Canada has certainly had the rights to do it, but they didn't have the right aircraft for it. When AC was shopping around for new aircraft it would be routes like these that would have been what they were buying them for. And of course, reciprocal rights required by the other nation who we all know want more... but I am NOT touching that anymore!

But like Klazu said just above, I get it but this does come up over and over and I have tried to explain it before... hopefully this will make sense and put the whole YVR market into better perspective for you.

hoboman27
Jun 5, 2015, 4:07 PM
HOURGLASS sent me this pdf about possible Air Canada expansion between now and 2018, (signed by Calin Rovinescu, of course)

http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/media/presentations/documents/investor_day_2015.pdf

Just looking over the presentation, page 35

http://i.imgur.com/jQ3ypII.png

I didn't know Air Canada was going to be reconfiguring their fleets to add that many extra seats.

SFUVancouver
Jun 5, 2015, 6:16 PM
^ I was surprised when I took an Air Canada 777-200LR from Sydney to Vancouver that they were using 3-3-3 seating as opposed to the higher density 3-4-3. I can see the Rouge 767 being pretty brutal if they're squeezing in as much as a 47% increase in seats.

deasine
Jun 5, 2015, 6:39 PM
I don't think I understand that chart. The Boeing 777-300ER HD today already has 458 seats under today's configuration (unless these were averages amongst the entire fleet of 777-300ERs).

The international fleet of planes were noted to be reconfigured with new seats that "match" the fittings of the newest (i.e. HD configuration). I assume that the increase of 30 seats will come to adding a seat to every row, or reducing J, or a combination of both.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 5, 2015, 9:07 PM
Later this month Vancouver is hosting the 136th IATA Slot Conference.

Very good exposure for YVR with over 200 airlines attending.

https://www.iata.org/events/sc136/pages/index.aspx

casper
Jun 6, 2015, 2:18 AM
I don't think I understand that chart. The Boeing 777-300ER HD today already has 458 seats under today's configuration (unless these were averages amongst the entire fleet of 777-300ERs).

The international fleet of planes were noted to be reconfigured with new seats that "match" the fittings of the newest (i.e. HD configuration). I assume that the increase of 30 seats will come to adding a seat to every row, or reducing J, or a combination of both.

The story I was told is those HD aircraft were being built for another low cost airlines (Virgin xxx of some sort) and the decision was made not to launch the airline. Since they were already into the manufacturing process Air Canada was able to get a real good deal on buying them but could not change the layout as most of the long lead time items were already on order. Those aircraft are a bit of a compromise.

They announced they are going to 3-4-3 when they do the mid-life refurbishment on the existing 777 as well as installing the same business class seats as the 787. I would not be surprised if the density of the HD becomes less especially if they upgrade the business cabin.

SFUVancouver
Jun 6, 2015, 2:33 AM
The story I was told is those HD aircraft were being built for another low cost airlines (Virgin xxx of some sort) and the decision was made not to launch the airline. Since they were already into the manufacturing process Air Canada was able to get a real good deal on buying them but could not change the layout as most of the long lead time items were already on order. Those aircraft are a bit of a compromise.

They announced they are going to 3-4-3 when they do the mid-life refurbishment on the existing 777 as well as installing the same business class seats as the 787. I would not be surprised if the density of the HD becomes less especially if they upgrade the business cabin.

HAECO got the contract to refurbish the Air Canada 777 interiors to 787 spec.

CareerShow
Jun 8, 2015, 6:13 PM
Hopefully the HD aircraft get changed to the new configuration. Those planes are cramped.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 8, 2015, 9:37 PM
Looks like NewLeaf Travel will be the first out of the block...

HQ will be YWG

Naturally lots of press across all major news sources....

http://www.newleaftravel.ca/about-newleaf.html

"Beginning in the Summer of 2015, NewLeaf will deliver scheduled nonstop flights from our main bases in Kelowna, Winnipeg and Hamilton to multiple domestic and international destinations."

Summer starts in two weeks! They might want to get going!

http://www.thestar.com/business/2015/06/08/no-frills-carrier-could-be-landing-at-hamilton-airport.html

From this story...

“We will be announcing our route plans for domestic Canada at the end of this month,” said chief commercial officer Bob Jones in an interview.

From the same story...

David Solloway, president of Canada Jetlines, says his company still aims to do an initial public offering in September to raise $50 million in capital, with a launch six months later.

Hmmmmm.... sounds like they are pushed back again.

“We wish them (NewLeaf) all the best, but we are starting an airline. It’s totally different,” he said.

And the Enerjet/Jet Naked talk...

Darcy Morgan, chief commercial officer at Enerjet, which has floated the name Jet Naked as a placeholder, says his company won’t pre-announce any plans.

“In the Canadian aviation industry, in the last year, there have been more announcements than on a PA system in a bus station,” Morgan said.

“When we are committed and ready, we’ll let the world know,” he said, adding Enerjet continually looks at the market for opportunities, including scheduled service.

Let the ULCC games begin!

deasine
Jun 8, 2015, 9:45 PM
Hopefully the HD aircraft get changed to the new configuration. Those planes are cramped.

The "new configuration" is the HD configuration. The 787 seats in Y are practically no different than the new 777s (only in W and J that they are much better).

Security/customs breach today. Can we say "TWOV?" ;)
http://bc.ctvnews.ca/yvr-security-breach-beijing-air-canada-passengers-skip-customs-1.2412182

casper
Jun 8, 2015, 11:53 PM
The "new configuration" is the HD configuration. The 787 seats in Y are practically no different than the new 777s (only in W and J that they are much better).

The two problems with the HD configuration is the 3-4-3 instead of 3-3-3. Most airlines are going to 3-4-3 so I think that is a given. The other problem is the lack of washrooms. Hopefully there is something that can be done there.

The J cabin on the HD is also not as nice as the rest of the fleet.

Security/customs breach today. Can we say "TWOV?" ;)
http://bc.ctvnews.ca/yvr-security-breach-beijing-air-canada-passengers-skip-customs-1.2412182

I know someone who had this happen to them with CP years ago in the "old terminal 1" in Toronto. Probably has happened in Vancouver before. Will likely happen again in the future. Your dependent on people setting up the swing gates correctly.

CareerShow
Jun 9, 2015, 6:56 AM
Why doesn't Delta fly Atlanta-Vancouver daily in the summer and at least a few times in the winter? Surely there is enough traffic. Also is United returning with the service to Washington Dulles?

Hourglass
Jun 9, 2015, 11:10 AM
Why doesn't Delta fly Atlanta-Vancouver daily in the summer and at least a few times in the winter? Surely there is enough traffic. Also is United returning with the service to Washington Dulles?

Given the size of their operation in Atlanta, it is a bit surprising that Delta can't support a year-round non-stop. But you can be sure they've looked at passenger patterns, crunched the numbers and decided that their metal would be more profitably deployed on other routes. Atlanta is a bit of a detour for flights to Europe or Asia -- or even the US Midwest or Northeast -- and they're not as strong as AA in Latin America. It probably makes the most sense to funnel passengers via their Seattle hub.

Cage
Jun 9, 2015, 4:09 PM
The story I was told is those HD aircraft were being built for another low cost airlines (Virgin xxx of some sort) and the decision was made not to launch the airline. Since they were already into the manufacturing process Air Canada was able to get a real good deal on buying them but could not change the layout as most of the long lead time items were already on order. Those aircraft are a bit of a compromise.

They announced they are going to 3-4-3 when they do the mid-life refurbishment on the existing 777 as well as installing the same business class seats as the 787. I would not be surprised if the density of the HD becomes less especially if they upgrade the business cabin.

AC got excellent prices on some 77W as compensation for 787 delays and poor 787 performance vs design performance. Initial plan from AC was to have the five 77Ws into a second LCC (different from rouge) that was to be joint ventured with Virgin Atlantic. The plan was something like Virgin Canada; based in YVR flying the TPAC in high density configuration. The joint venture aspect of the plan didn't work out, but the 77Ws were well along the path to delivery. AC went ahead with the high density 77Ws and slightly altered the mission to include YUL-CDG in addition to YVR-HKG and YVR-LHR.

As for cabin refurbishment, the 5 (soon to be 7) 77P airplanes will be fitted with new Business Class cabin that is going into all 77W airplanes, however the Business cabin will be smaller than standard 77W. All standard 77W get new Business class seats, plus new 21 seat premium economy cabin, and 3-4-3 layout in economy. Lavs in the standard 77W will stay the same as will number of Business class seats. Because the lavs and number of Business class seats are not changing, the standard 77W seat count will be about 400 while the 77P (high density) seat count remains at about 450.

The 77W cabin will get the 787 colour scheme and interior furnishings.

At the same time as 77W cabin refurbishment, the 333 fleet gets smaller Business Class Cabin (rear mini cabin is removed) and 21 premium economy seats installed. All other aspects of the 333 fleet remain the same.

CareerShow
Jun 9, 2015, 4:34 PM
Will they change the business class on the current HD 777 to the 787 Business class seats? The current seats are terrible.

Cage
Jun 9, 2015, 6:24 PM
Will they change the business class on the current HD 777 to the 787 Business class seats? The current seats are terrible.

Yes HD 77W get new business class, however the number of business class seats will be less than standard post refurbished 77W.

The interesting situation, the current HD 77W Business Class seats are same as those on Swiss. The Swiss seats get much higher reviews than AC version, although exactly the same seat.

SFUVancouver
Jun 9, 2015, 6:47 PM
The thing about the 777 in a high density 3-4-3 configuration is that the width of the plane can comfortably accommodate that.

I don't think the cabin width of the 777 is frequently appreciated. It is 5.87m (5.97m for the 777X).

By way of comparison for the Boeing wide-body family, the 787 has a cabin width of 5.49 m; the 767 4.72 m; and the 747 a colossal 6.13 m(!). For Airbus, the A330 & A340 family share a 5.28 m cabin width; the A350 5.61 m; and, like the 747, the A380 has a colossal 6.54 m on the main deck and a still very respectable 5.80 m for the upper deck.

Bottom line, the 777 is half a metre wider than its A330/A340 competitors and a quarter of a metre wider than the "eXtra Wide Body" A350 XWB.

Alpine
Jun 9, 2015, 7:10 PM
Why does YVR rarely get 77W's, and never get 747-8i's or A380s?

AC3 (Narita), AC25 (Shanghai), AC29 (Beijing), AC63 (Seoul) all use 787-8 aircraft.

Air Canada's only intercontinental destinations from YVR that don't use 787's are AC854, AC7 and AC33. The first two flights serve London and Hong Kong, massive hubs for YVR; and the third originates from YYZ requiring a 77L.

Except for AC7, all of these flights have used either a 767-300ER, an A330-300 or an A340-300 at some time in the past.

LH493 uses Lufthansa's dinosaur 747-400s, previously A340-600s. We don't get those brand spanking new 747-8is.

JAL used to have 2x 747-400s (JL11, JL17), but after bankruptcy and the Great East Japan Earthquake, it's been 787s all the way down. (JAL, ANA and of course AC)

China Eastern uses A330s. China Southern uses 787s, previously 777-200s. KLM uses A330s, previously MD-11s.

However, BA uses 747-400s and Air China uses 777-300ERs. Cathay mixes it up with 747-400s and 777-300ERs. KLM is switching to 787-9s on KL682, but I would kill to see a 747-8i or an A380 in passenger service at YVR. Or an expansion in 77W flights. I remember AC003 used to be a 77W. Maybe CA992 on a 748-8i? Does YVR even have the passenger demand for such aircraft?

CareerShow
Jun 9, 2015, 7:43 PM
Firstly AC switches to a 777W for the summer months on the YVR PEK route. YVR Sydney was a 777W last Winter. Cathay goes 2 Daily 777W to Hong Kong. Philippine airlines sends a 777W at least 4 times a week. BA may switch to a 777W with the retirements of there 747.

CareerShow
Jun 9, 2015, 7:43 PM
Yes HD 77W get new business class, however the number of business class seats will be less than standard post refurbished 77W.

The interesting situation, the current HD 77W Business Class seats are same as those on Swiss. The Swiss seats get much higher reviews than AC version, although exactly the same seat.
Not having direct isle access really degrades from the business class seats.

deasine
Jun 9, 2015, 9:30 PM
Yes HD 77W get new business class, however the number of business class seats will be less than standard post refurbished 77W.

The interesting situation, the current HD 77W Business Class seats are same as those on Swiss. The Swiss seats get much higher reviews than AC version, although exactly the same seat.

I always find this funny as well, but I think we have to keep in mind what the last generation of J seats on Europe carriers are versus the last generation of ACs seats. As CareerShow mentioned, not having direct aisle access having to climb over another passenger for some seats is really a big sticking point.

Cage
Jun 9, 2015, 10:09 PM
Not having direct isle access really degrades from the business class seats.

8 seats on the 77HD do not have direct aisle access, the other 28 seats do have direct aisle access. Direct aisle access is not that big a detraction on the 77HD.

The other bone of contention for most is that only 6 seats have no neighbour. These seats are the most coveted places on the airplane, consequently these 6 seats are blocked from Aeroplan award redemption and upgrades.

Third contentious aspect of the seats is the foot room on flat bed setting is very narrow. For taller people the narrow foot hole is troublesome.

Cage
Jun 9, 2015, 10:16 PM
Why does YVR rarely get 77W's, and never get 747-8i's or A380s?

Lack of A380 is directly related to lack of EK (Emirates) access to YVR.

Lack of 748i is directly related to LH services in F and C (business class) under performing in the Canadian market. LH uses the 748i in markets that have large numbers of paid F and C class passengers. If LH also needs more economy class pax they send 380.

The 748i and 380 are also utilized out of FRA where there is all ready services from both MUC and FRA. In YVR case, there is summer service to both FRA and MUC. The next step is for AC to enter the YVR-FRA market. Once there is multiple daily flights to a combined FRA and MUC, then LH puts on either the 748 or 380.

CareerShow
Jun 9, 2015, 11:05 PM
8 seats on the 77HD do not have direct aisle access, the other 28 seats do have direct aisle access. Direct aisle access is not that big a detraction on the 77HD.

The other bone of contention for most is that only 6 seats have no neighbour. These seats are the most coveted places on the airplane, consequently these 6 seats are blocked from Aeroplan award redemption and upgrades.

Third contentious aspect of the seats is the foot room on flat bed setting is very narrow. For taller people the narrow foot hole is troublesome.
Of those 28 seats however, many of them have the problem of people stepping over the other person to get into the isle, which can be a massive annoyance. Also, the seats are too short when fully outstretched, and are to low to the ground.

LeftCoaster
Jun 10, 2015, 12:04 AM
Lack of A380 is directly related to lack of EK (Emirates) access to YVR.

Lack of 748i is directly related to LH services in F and C (business class) under performing in the Canadian market. LH uses the 748i in markets that have large numbers of paid F and C class passengers. If LH also needs more economy class pax they send 380.

The 748i and 380 are also utilized out of FRA where there is all ready services from both MUC and FRA. In YVR case, there is summer service to both FRA and MUC. The next step is for AC to enter the YVR-FRA market. Once there is multiple daily flights to a combined FRA and MUC, then LH puts on either the 748 or 380.

Cage, thanks for dropping by the YVR thread, good to have another knowledgeable voice in here.

Interesting that the 380 is put on when they need more economy not paid F&C (assuming this is LHs equivalent of AC-J?), as I always assumed the 380 was used on heavy paid first class routes. Given that YVR is traditionally not a huge paid first market would it then have a better chance of seeing a LH 380 than a 748i?

Johnny Aussie
Jun 10, 2015, 12:16 AM
Cage, thanks for dropping by the YVR thread, good to have another knowledgeable voice in here.

Interesting that the 380 is put on when they need more economy not paid F&C (assuming this is LHs equivalent of AC-J?), as I always assumed the 380 was used on heavy paid first class routes. Given that YVR is traditionally not a huge paid first market would it then have a better chance of seeing a LH 380 than a 748i?

Yes... Love to have more knowledgable voices with productive discussion.

I'll throw in my two cents.

Most airlines that operate the really big birds are just too premium heavy for YVR and really for most cities in Canada. There actually is a pretty decent premium market from YVR as indicated lately by a lot of the fleet shuffling... But yes I agree not big enough to support A380 or B748 ops.

Having said that I'll be on another A380 very soon!

LeftCoaster
Jun 10, 2015, 12:21 AM
Most airlines that operate the really big birds are just too premium heavy for YVR and really for most cities in Canada.

I suppose this is pretty clear by how few you see here at YYZ as well. Of course EK does, and I think I've seen BA 380 here too, but that's about it.

Having said that I'll be on another A380 very soon!

Too bad it's not on its way to YVR.

LeftCoaster
Jun 10, 2015, 12:34 AM
Hmm after all that I just found this video on Youtube:

iaabfa43Ecs

Guess they aren't running them anymore?

casper
Jun 10, 2015, 4:31 AM
....
The interesting situation, the current HD 77W Business Class seats are same as those on Swiss. The Swiss seats get much higher reviews than AC version, although exactly the same seat.

I think it is also a function of who is making the comment and where they are coming from.

The average Air Canada business class passenger probably flies AC regularly. The HD business class is a step down from the rest of the wide body fleet.

If the case of Swiss, the average Swiss passenger probably found that cabin a step up from what they were use to. It is clearly better that the pre-pod business class on AC/CP.

I don't fly to Asia that much any more. When I did I use to love flying the AC - A330. That had such an over supply of business class seats that I could usually get an upgrade into business. I can see why there is are removing seats, that aircraft has the wrong ratio. They want mostly passengers paying for business class in those seats and not frequent flyers upgrading.

Klazu
Jun 10, 2015, 4:50 AM
BA may switch to a 777W with the retirements of there 747.

Considering that BA has during summer two daily flights, would it possible for them to consider going in the future for a daily summer A380, rather than twice a day 777W? I think BA is our only hope for seeing a A380 ever and Lufthansa for 747-8 (nice video find, Leftcoaster!).

Johnny Aussie
Jun 10, 2015, 6:03 AM
Why doesn't Delta fly Atlanta-Vancouver daily in the summer and at least a few times in the winter? Surely there is enough traffic. Also is United returning with the service to Washington Dulles?

Surely there is enough traffic? How can you be "sure?" - see my next point below. And yes YVR-IAD has started for the summer albeit only one weekly flight on Saturdays this summer.

Given the size of their operation in Atlanta, it is a bit surprising that Delta can't support a year-round non-stop. But you can be sure they've looked at passenger patterns, crunched the numbers and decided that their metal would be more profitably deployed on other routes. Atlanta is a bit of a detour for flights to Europe or Asia -- or even the US Midwest or Northeast -- and they're not as strong as AA in Latin America. It probably makes the most sense to funnel passengers via their Seattle hub.

Just looking at Delta's YVR summer ops, for example, in just the last couple of years it has gone from serving four destinations (MSP, SLC, ATL and DTW) with six flights per day to seven destinations (MSP, SLC, ATL, DTW, JFK, LAX and SEA) with 12 flights per day. Of course, weekend ops get a further boost. And they have gone from two year-round destinations to four. All of these destinations are hubs on varying levels... Sure ATL is their largest base but it's also by far the furthest base from YVR. I'd say YVR is lucky to have even just the two flights per week to ATL in the summer.

Why does YVR rarely get 77W's, and never get 747-8i's or A380s?

AC3 (Narita), AC25 (Shanghai), AC29 (Beijing), AC63 (Seoul) all use 787-8 aircraft.

Air Canada's only intercontinental destinations from YVR that don't use 787's are AC854, AC7 and AC33. The first two flights serve London and Hong Kong, massive hubs for YVR; and the third originates from YYZ requiring a 77L.

Except for AC7, all of these flights have used either a 767-300ER, an A330-300 or an A340-300 at some time in the past.

LH493 uses Lufthansa's dinosaur 747-400s, previously A340-600s. We don't get those brand spanking new 747-8is.

JAL used to have 2x 747-400s (JL11, JL17), but after bankruptcy and the Great East Japan Earthquake, it's been 787s all the way down. (JAL, ANA and of course AC)

China Eastern uses A330s. China Southern uses 787s, previously 777-200s. KLM uses A330s, previously MD-11s.

However, BA uses 747-400s and Air China uses 777-300ERs. Cathay mixes it up with 747-400s and 777-300ERs. KLM is switching to 787-9s on KL682, but I would kill to see a 747-8i or an A380 in passenger service at YVR. Or an expansion in 77W flights. I remember AC003 used to be a 77W. Maybe CA992 on a 748-8i? Does YVR even have the passenger demand for such aircraft?

Pretty amazing that YVR has all of these services you have just listed with a vast array of different aircraft types. Not bad huh?

Don't forget AC also flies the 77W twice daily to YYZ. Plus pretty soon in August one daily 789 for at least a month anyway.

China Airlines is being tipped to be one of their first A350 routes too.

EVA Air continues to add frequencies to YVR. Wouldn't surprise me to see them go daily very soon. Their 744s are also being phased out so.... Yup more 77Ws on the way.

CX no longer flies 744s, they have been phased out of their fleet anyway. CX flies three daily 77Ws into YVR - 2 to HKG and 1 to JFK.

KL going to be daily 777-200 next summer. KLM has earmarked YVR as a daily 789 route but nothing official yet.

YVR is also very lucky to have JAL flying here still as well considering all the bases they have dropped worldwide.

AC to NRT downgauged due to NH launching YVR-HND.... soon to be a Dreamliner as well in a few more weeks.

So not too sure about your opening comment... YVR sees quite a few 77Ws (including even more in my next comment). As for your A380 and 748 question.... See my last comment at the bottom.

Firstly AC switches to a 777W for the summer months on the YVR PEK route. YVR Sydney was a 777W last Winter. Cathay goes 2 Daily 777W to Hong Kong. Philippine airlines sends a 777W at least 4 times a week. BA may switch to a 777W with the retirements of there 747.

PR is actually 7 weekly 77Ws. The four that carry on to YYZ and the three YVR standalones. YVR sees the A340s on the 4 weekly MNL-YVR-JFK route as well.

Considering that BA has during summer two daily flights, would it possible for them to consider going in the future for a daily summer A380, rather than twice a day 777W? I think BA is our only hope for seeing a A380 ever and Lufthansa for 747-8 (nice video find, Leftcoaster!).

I would think they would go true double daily on 77Ws versus an A380.

I think that LH 748 was a one off!

My take on why YVR doesn't have any A380 or 748 flights.... Besides my earlier comment on them being too premium heavy...

There are currently 8 cities in North America that see A380 services. YYZ, SFO, LAX, DFW, IAH, ATL, MIA, IAD and JFK. And fewer see the 748. The smallest city on that list has a metro area of over six million people.

Need I say more?

Denscity
Jun 10, 2015, 6:19 AM
You killed it Johnny and YVR is awesome! How long till someone else complains about it's lack of flights and variety??

CareerShow
Jun 10, 2015, 6:35 AM
Considering that BA has during summer two daily flights, would it possible for them to consider going in the future for a daily summer A380, rather than twice a day 777W? I think BA is our only hope for seeing a A380 ever and Lufthansa for 747-8 (nice video find, Leftcoaster!).
I think more frequency would be better for both BA and travellers, greater selection and flexibility.

Hourglass
Jun 10, 2015, 6:42 AM
Considering that BA has during summer two daily flights, would it possible for them to consider going in the future for a daily summer A380, rather than twice a day 777W? I think BA is our only hope for seeing a A380 ever and Lufthansa for 747-8 (nice video find, Leftcoaster!).

Actually, if passenger numbers from China continue to grow, I could see China Southern one day sending an A380 to YVR (ok, not in the short or medium term, but still one can hope...). Doesn't Air China have 748s on order as well?

CareerShow
Jun 10, 2015, 6:54 AM
Actually, if passenger numbers from China continue to grow, I could see China Southern one day sending an A380 to YVR (ok, not in the short or medium term, but still one can hope...). Doesn't Air China have 748s on order as well?
Again, I think both airlines are better off sending higher frequencies rather then larger aircraft. Air China is already doing that this summer with up to two daily 777W in August. The larger aircrafts are more suited to airports with large passenger demands and minimal airport slots. As far as I know, YVR is not pressed for slots.

teriyaki
Jun 10, 2015, 7:10 AM
Agreed. And as a traveller, I very much prefer having more frequencies as opposed to less (albeit on "sexier" aircraft). Having that time flexibility means I can maximize my actual vacation time.

With 787-9's coming online soon, and the A350 also on the horizon. We still have our fair share of variety in the near future.

trofirhen
Jun 10, 2015, 9:46 AM
It is evident, from the information supplied by Johnny and others, that YVR, while not being a major world hub, is an important airport with many big jets of most types.
My thing is ROUTES. I'd love to see Brisbane, Melbourne, Lima and São Paulo added to the roster, including Istanbul Atatürk.

Yes,yes, yes; not enough demand, too small a market, bilaterals, the list goes on.

But if people can cry for bigger planes, I can cry for more routes. (some may remember how I used to rant about Paris ... and they finally got Air France to CDG. Voilà)

deasine
Jun 10, 2015, 6:14 PM
There's word an A380 will be making scheduled visits by British Airways coming next April. If any airline will fly an A380, I think BA is probably the most fitting as it already has 747s, occasionally at more than daily frequencies.

Denscity
Jun 10, 2015, 6:15 PM
There's word an A380 will be making scheduled visits by British Airways coming next April. If any airline will fly an A380, I think BA is probably the most fitting as it already has 747s, occasionally at more than daily frequencies.

I beg your pardon?? :slob:

CareerShow
Jun 10, 2015, 6:41 PM
I beg your pardon?? :slob:
I would think Vancouver wouldn't warrant such a large aircraft, let alone at more then 7 weekly.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 10, 2015, 8:38 PM
There's word an A380 will be making scheduled visits by British Airways coming next April. If any airline will fly an A380, I think BA is probably the most fitting as it already has 747s, occasionally at more than daily frequencies.

BA has nine A380s in its fleet with three more on the way for a total of 12. BA's A380s have 14 F, 97 J, 55 W (World Traveller Plus) and 303 Y seats for a total of 469 seats.

Right now they fly them to JNB, SIN, HKG, SFO, LAX, IAD and as of Oct 2015 MIA. These destinations all have very strong premium demand. After MIA they will be receiving two more. Looking at their world route map if YVR was earmarked for one of the next two I'd be surprised.

Like most YVR-Europe routes YVR-LHR is very seasonal. The LHR-YVR runs daily in the winter and 12 weekly in the summer. The only time I could see an A380 on the route would be for the period say early June to mid September (during the 12 flights per week period). Any other time of the year would be a real struggle to fill the beast.

In any event if this did happen I would expect it to be during summer only and perhaps just a few flights per week replacing some of the additional frequencies of the second flight. Something like daily BA84 with four 380s and three 744s, and BA86 running on the days BA84 is a 744 so three days per week.

trofirhen
Jun 10, 2015, 8:40 PM
There's word an A380 will be making scheduled visits by British Airways coming next April. If any airline will fly an A380, I think BA is probably the most fitting as it already has 747s, occasionally at more than daily frequencies.

I beg your pardon?? :slob:
Regarding this, I once heard somewhere long ago and far away, that BA was considering doubly daily service here 5 x / wk.

Not only due to LHR being a major tourist and business destination, Vancouver still has a % of people of UK origin to add to the load factor.

This might or might explain the idea of the A380 being put on the YVR -LHR run. (:shrug:)

Johnny Aussie
Jun 10, 2015, 8:47 PM
AC seems to be very happy with its recent international expansion. "... paying better than expected results." According to Ben Smith.

He is attributing a lot of that due to the 787. Since a lot of this is out of YVR I would expect they are more than pleased with their choice of putting the 787 on most YVR-Asia routes.

https://canadianaviationnews.wordpress.com/2015/06/09/787-perfectly-designed-for-air-canada-executive/

trofirhen
Jun 10, 2015, 9:10 PM
I address this largely to Johnny, others too, of course:
What shape is JETSTAR in financially. Where are they headed in market terms?
I noticed they seem to have an eclectic destination roster, with Asian cities served then discontinued (notably MNL, KL, BEIJ), yet with Wuhan, China, coming up.
Would they possible be interested in grabbing a North American foothold, going MEL - YVR? They are based in Melbourne, if that has anything to do with it. Do they, or will they, have 789s?

LeftCoaster
Jun 10, 2015, 9:46 PM
^ If I recall correctly Jetstar is a low cost airline, which I think is a subsidiary of Qantas. It's primary focus is on SE Asia, so I'd be very surprised to see them send something to NA. Much more likely to be Qantas or AC service to Melbourne.

The larger aircrafts are more suited to airports with large passenger demands and minimal airport slots. As far as I know, YVR is not pressed for slots.

That is a two way issue though, it doesn't have to be YVR that is slot constrained, just one of the airports.

If LHR for instance is slot constrained (which it badly is) it will have the same effect as YVR being slot constrained and necessitate upgauging of the size of plane.

There's word an A380 will be making scheduled visits by British Airways coming next April. If any airline will fly an A380, I think BA is probably the most fitting as it already has 747s, occasionally at more than daily frequencies.

Hmm, interesting. I'll believe it when I see it, but given what I just said above it could have some logical basis.

AC seems to be very happy with its recent international expansion. "... paying better than expected results." According to Ben Smith.

He is attributing a lot of that due to the 787. Since a lot of this is out of YVR I would expect they are more than pleased with their choice of putting the 787 on most YVR-Asia routes.

https://canadianaviationnews.wordpress.com/2015/06/09/787-perfectly-designed-for-air-canada-executive/

Great news. I think it has been you that has been constantly saying that the 787 is the perfect aircraft for Vancouver's loads/destinations. Always nice to be right!

trofirhen
Jun 10, 2015, 10:08 PM
^ If I recall correctly Jetstar is a low cost airline, which I think is a subsidiary of Qantas. It's primary focus is on SE Asia, so I'd be very surprised to see them send something to NA. Much more likely to be Qantas or AC service to Melbourne.

Does anyone believe MEL might be possible within 5 years? If not, in roughly how much time after that? Less than 10 years, I'd hope.

Cage
Jun 10, 2015, 11:00 PM
Does anyone believe MEL might be possible within 5 years? If not, in roughly how much time after that? Less than 10 years, I'd hope.

MEL or BNE is possible within the next 5 years.

AC is the best bet, especially if they go for more 788s. Winter seasonal services on 789 to both SYD 7x/wk and MEL 5x/wk would be attractive.

JQ is out (or at least poor fit) due to small seats and small pitch offered on Jetstar. JQ gets 335 people into their 787 where as AC gets 251. JQ crams everyone into the 788 but standard stage length is at least 750-1000 miles less than AC.

QF is rumored to be dangling a Dreamliner order in front of their pilots in order to sign a new contract. The Dreamliner would be perfect for QF. But much like the 77W; they appear to be watching other airlines eating their lunch.

trofirhen
Jun 10, 2015, 11:10 PM
MEL or BNE is possible within the next 5 years.

AC is the best bet, especially if they go for more 788s. Winter seasonal services on 789 to both SYD 7x/wk and MEL 5x/wk would be attractive.

JQ is out (or at least poor fit) due to small seats and small pitch offered on Jetstar. JQ gets 335 people into their 787 where as AC gets 251. JQ crams everyone into the 788 but standard stage length is at least 750-1000 miles less than AC.

QF is rumored to be dangling a Dreamliner order in front of their pilots in order to sign a new contract. The Dreamliner would be perfect for QF. But much like the 77W; they appear to be watching other airlines eating their lunch.
I believe that contract was signed, and a go-ahead on long haul routes made possible. At any rate, I hope Qantas either kicks back into year-round Vancouver from Sydney,
or (given the existing AC service there) then MEL. We gotta get MEL (I think).

Also, who is eating Qantas's lunch? EK and the M3? I've heard that they have swallowed up a lot of QF traffic, (and have large accessibility in Australia and NZ.)

CareerShow
Jun 11, 2015, 4:58 AM
I would like to see San Diego brought back. I could see AC Rouge starting that route in the next 2 years. Westjet has seemed to stop their expansion at YVR.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 11, 2015, 8:27 AM
Just saw this little post on Twitter!

@airlineroute: CAAC has posted Hainan Airlines' application for 5 weekly A330 Tianjin - Vancouver service, starting June 2016

Not official yet... but.... this is big... no.... this is huge!