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Hourglass
Jun 11, 2015, 9:08 AM
Just saw this little post on Twitter!

@airlineroute: CAAC has posted Hainan Airlines' application for 5 weekly A330 Tianjin - Vancouver service, starting June 2016

Not official yet... but.... this is big... no.... this is huge!

Big indeed. Hainan Airlines is the largest remaining mainline Chinese carrier without nonstop service to Vancouver.

I was wondering at the choice of Tianjin as it's a tier II city in China. But then again, only in China can you have a second tier city with a population of >14 million!

This is really exciting news. Thanks for sharing Johnny

Johnny Aussie
Jun 11, 2015, 10:21 AM
^^
I'm still wondering about Xiamen and its YVR plans.

After AMS they have gone rather silent.

SYD is being tipped as their next overseas destination but nothing official at all.

I also wouldn't be surprised with an announcement involving Hangzhou.

So YVR will be directly linked with China to Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou, Shenyang, Chengdu, Kunming, Hong Kong and now most likely Tianjin.

Klazu
Jun 11, 2015, 3:49 PM
There's word an A380 will be making scheduled visits by British Airways coming next April.

Ha! Seems that YVR is going to surprise all of us once again! :cheers:

I wonder why Johannesburg is such a destination for many airlines' A380s? How come they have such a demand for first and business class seats but YYZ and YVR apparently don't? :shrug:

SFUVancouver
Jun 11, 2015, 4:41 PM
Ha! Seems that YVR is going to surprise all of us once again! :cheers:

I wonder why Johannesburg is such a destination for many airlines' A380s? How come they have such a demand for first and business class seats but YYZ and YVR apparently don't? :shrug:

I can jump in on this; I have worked on a project there for 18 months and know it pretty well now. Johannesburg is a pretty serious aviation market for several reasons.

(1) Johannesburg is the heart of the Gauteng Global City-Region, which includes Johannesburg, Pretoria, and Ekurhuleni, and together they have a larger population than you might expect: approximately 7 million people.

The City of Johannesburg has 957,441 people; Tshwane (Pretoria) Metropolitan Municipality has 2,921,488; and Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Municipality (home to Johannesburg-OR Tambo International Airport) has 3,178,470 people.

(2) The Gauteng Global City-Region is home to a lot of international firms, particularly those that can generate steady demand for air travel. Most of the world's major banks have established a significant presence in Johannesburg (Sandton, to be precise) and use it as their command and control regional HQ for their presence in the African market. The command and control centre for the country's lucrative mining sector (gold, diamonds, platinum, chromium, rare earths) is still centred in the Johannesburg CBD. These mining houses generate significant ongoing travel within Africa and between South Africa and the big mining finance centres of the world. Heavy industry (automotive, transportation, heavy equipment) for Africa is concentrated in the Gauteng Global City-Region (primarily Ekurhuleni) and generates ongoing demand for air connectivity.

(3) Johannesburg is really far away from everything, so most long-haul flights need as much range as possible and they can fill their planes if they do a single flight per day.

(4) Johannesburg is the transit hub for international connections to sub-Saharan Africa, so there are steady streams of people flying through Johannesburg to reach other points in the classic hub and spoke model.

(5) Historically, Johannesburg was an exotic and prestigous destination for an airline to connect to (and arguably still is) and this warranted many flag carries to maintain the route as part of their demonstrated international reach.

hoboman27
Jun 11, 2015, 5:15 PM
Just saw this little post on Twitter!

@airlineroute: CAAC has posted Hainan Airlines' application for 5 weekly A330 Tianjin - Vancouver service, starting June 2016

Not official yet... but.... this is big... no.... this is huge!

where where where? I looked on their twitter account but can't find it.

How reliable are they?

Klazu
Jun 11, 2015, 5:37 PM
Thanks for the "local" perspective, SFUVancouver. :)

That is what I was guessing but I am still amazed how many airlines have it as their A380 destination. I could understand one or two but there are like, what, close to five airlines flying an A380 there? LH, BA, AF (?), EK (?) and Qantas (?). Feel free to correct me on that.

I can understand the demand for business travel, but are average South Africans affluent enough to be traveling enough to warrant all these largest planes? How do they fill those economy seats? Johannesburg is not really a top tourist destination itself (Cape Town is doing much better on that front) and the neighbouring countries that it makes sense to connect through Johannesburg are even less developed (hence less air travel).

There definitely seems to be market, but I am curious to understand how come they are so much more appealing air markets than YYZ or YVR, for example.

CareerShow
Jun 11, 2015, 5:42 PM
A lot of airlines fly into only Joberg, not Cape Town. This funnels all the traffic to Joberg

Klazu
Jun 11, 2015, 5:46 PM
A lot of airlines fly into only Joberg, not Cape Town. This funnels all the traffic to Joberg

That's true and has an impact. Do any of the Cape Town flights have a layover in Johannesburg, like many Buenos Aires flights seem to have in neighbouring countries.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 11, 2015, 8:10 PM
where where where? I looked on their twitter account but can't find it.

How reliable are they?

It's still there... It's still there... It's still there! Look again!

Would have been tweeted about 1 AM Vancouver time last night.

It's between the Hainan tweet about Shanghai-Tianjin-New York JFK and the one about China Airlines changes to Korea services.

Airlineroute is one of the most reliable sources for new route information.

Hourglass
Jun 11, 2015, 8:20 PM
That's true and has an impact. Do any of the Cape Town flights have a layover in Johannesburg, like many Buenos Aires flights seem to have in neighbouring countries.

I don't recall many airlines adding a tag from Joburg to Cape Town -- maybe because one needs to clear immigration at Joburg? My last trip there I landed at JNB and then transferred to a domestic flight. I do know BA's flight from Cape Town to London is non-stop.

**edit: SQ seems to fly from Cape Town to Singapore via Joburg. A bit more digging would likely see a number of airlines doing that as well

A couple of additional thoughts regarding the A380 and Joburg: (1) the strong historical links between S Africa and countries in Europe and (2) the significant Afrikaner population in cities such as London. I think SFUVancouver's point #4 is a big one

Johnny Aussie
Jun 11, 2015, 8:23 PM
Ha! Seems that YVR is going to surprise all of us once again! :cheers:

I wonder why Johannesburg is such a destination for many airlines' A380s? How come they have such a demand for first and business class seats but YYZ and YVR apparently don't? :shrug:

Don't forget this is still based on a rumour. I'd be curious about the source.

Not doubting it just prefer to have rumours backed up with a reliable source.

Canadian markets in general, other than YYZ, are small(ish) and not premium heavy.

SFUVancouver really nails why JNB gets a few A380s. In my knowledge with BA, JNB was obscenely premium heavy. Many many flights would go out full-paid in F and J. It was very rare there would be empty premium seats into and out of LHR. Don't know if this is still the case today but I would assume there would still be some very significant wealth travelling in and out of JNB.

CareerShow
Jun 11, 2015, 8:30 PM
I would think Vancouver would have a premium market on some routes such as HK and London, where there is a lot of wealth.

hoboman27
Jun 11, 2015, 8:45 PM
It's still there... It's still there... It's still there! Look again!

Would have been tweeted about 1 AM Vancouver time last night.

It's between the Hainan tweet about Shanghai-Tianjin-New York JFK and the one about China Airlines changes to Korea services.

Airlineroute is one of the most reliable sources for new route information.

thanks, man that is big news.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 11, 2015, 8:59 PM
I would think Vancouver would have a premium market on some routes such as HK and London, where there is a lot of wealth.

Absolutely, and I've said multiple times before there is a decent premium market to a few global destinations and it may be bigger than some people think....

BUT (a big BUT) it is still quite small relative to many other cities. That is why certain airlines do have F class to YVR or have added new aircraft that now have F class or larger J cabins. CA, CZ, CX for example. This is mainly to Asia though. But unfortunately I don't think it's big enough to warrant the A380 or 748.

CareerShow
Jun 11, 2015, 9:30 PM
Absolutely, and I've said multiple times before there is a decent premium market to a few global destinations and it may be bigger than some people think....

BUT (a big BUT) it is still quite small relative to many other cities. That is why certain airlines do have F class to YVR or have added new aircraft that now have F class or larger J cabins. CA, CZ, CX for example. This is mainly to Asia though. But unfortunately I don't think it's big enough to warrant the A380 or 748.
Very true, although i dont think it matters. The 777 is quite a confortable plane and carries almost as many people as some 747 anyways.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 11, 2015, 11:13 PM
Very true, although i dont think it matters. The 777 is quite a confortable plane and carries almost as many people as some 747 anyways.

Agreed. Every airline has differing configurations from very comfortable to extremely high density.
I'll be flying on an SQ A380 next week and I'm really not fussed anymore after being on them so many times now. But I remember pining and waiting for it like a little kid. First time on it was early in the game and it was exciting. So I get the part of people wanting then to fly to YVR.
Now I'm happy with their 77Ws anyway as consistent products with their A380s other than the Suites of course.

teriyaki
Jun 11, 2015, 11:46 PM
Tianjin, I can understand that they would likely be turned down to operate PEK to yvr due to air China sitting on that route. Not familiar with this city, safe to surmise it is a relatively large population centre within earshot of PEK (their natural hub city).

Hourglass
Jun 12, 2015, 2:47 AM
Tianjin, I can understand that they would likely be turned down to operate PEK to yvr due to air China sitting on that route. Not familiar with this city, safe to surmise it is a relatively large population centre within earshot of PEK (their natural hub city).

It's the 4th or 5th largest city in China

Klazu
Jun 12, 2015, 4:02 AM
I appreciate your insight, Johnny, but some of your comments do occasionally sound pompous. :rolleyes:

I don't think any of us would love to see an A380 route to YVR because we haven't flown on one (many of us have), but because they are beautiful big planes. I would think you above of all would understand thus. So there is no need to be condescending for us simple people stuck here in poor Canada. Eh? ;)

SFUVancouver
Jun 12, 2015, 5:41 AM
Don't forget this is still based on a rumour. I'd be curious about the source.

Not doubting it just prefer to have rumours backed up with a reliable source.

Canadian markets in general, other than YYZ, are small(ish) and not premium heavy.

SFUVancouver really nails why JNB gets a few A380s. In my knowledge with BA, JNB was obscenely premium heavy. Many many flights would go out full-paid in F and J. It was very rare there would be empty premium seats into and out of LHR. Don't know if this is still the case today but I would assume there would still be some very significant wealth travelling in and out of JNB.

I've flown to Johannesburg four times in the last year and a half: twice through LHR and twice through Hong Kong. I took BA for the LHR flights (a B744 and a A380) and Cathay (773ER) from HKG. On each leg of each flight I recall the economy cabins being absolutely full. There were also always a lot of people in 1st, business, and premium economy. The sense I got was that these planes were full from stem to stern.

Something to consider is that the sheer length of travel for any international flights likely trigger business class travel clauses in a lot of business travellers, plus there is still very much a culture of business people and government travelling well (business & 1st). Government fact-finding and conference travel is common and frequently involves surprisingly large contingents of staff. There is also a brisk MICE sector (meetings, incentives, conferences, and exhibitions) in South Africa, with Johannesburg, Durban, and Cape Town all sporting modern, world-class convention centres.

There is historically a large Indian presence in South Africa (particularly Durban) and an increasingly large Chinese presence for business and tourism (it was growing at 20% per year until the new SA visa situation cropped up this spring and the xenophobic attacks spooked the tour operators - Air China is going to scale down or suspend its JNB-Beijing route this fall and SAA cancelled the same route this spring).

This one is a big delicate: white South Africans are generally pretty well off. During the Apartheid years, white South Africans enjoyed one of the highest standards of living in the world. The diaspora of white South African is pretty large and they travel quite regularly to visit extended family. The black middle class in South Africa now equals the spending power of the white middle class and air travel, particularly within sub-Saharan Africa, is growing steadily.

Lanseria Airport in Johannesburg is emerging as the low-cost carrier hub connecting South Africa & Johannesburg to Sub-Saharan Africa and it on track to settle into the role of a Gatwick, for example. In time, I could see the Gautrain making a direct connection between OR Tambo International and Lanseria, making an domestic & international legacy carrier leg/regional low-cost carrier leg pairing an attractive offering.

The importance of the automotive sector is really hard to overstate, too. A large part of Sub-Saharan Africa's cars and trucks, including large transport trucks, are manufactured in South Africa and there is brisk trade in automotive parts perpetually flying through Johannesburg. The aerospace sector is pretty decent as well, with Denel being a Tier 1 supplier to Airbus and manufacturer of several key aerostructures for the A400M. Denel was also a Tier 1 supplier to Augusta-Westland, though they've wound down that relationship. Saab and Aerosud both have substantial presences in the Johannesburg area and presumably fly parts and people between Europe and South Africa.

Anyway, I'm going to throw on the breaks and not regurgitate my whole project. Suffice it to say, I'm not terribly surprised at all that Johannesburg is a place where the giants of commercial aviation come regularly to call. In addition to A380s, the place is bristling with long-haulers like the A340s, 747s, and 777s.

CareerShow
Jun 12, 2015, 7:19 AM
^Some very good points. Its a long way to travel from pretty much anywhere. Anyone think Virgin America will start YVR LAX or SFO?

Johnny Aussie
Jun 12, 2015, 10:15 AM
YVR will see some limited 787-900 flights in Sept.

One return trip each to ICN, PVG and NRT.

Perhaps this may be a sign of things to come.

http://airlineroute.net/2015/06/12/ac-asia-sep15/

Denscity
Jun 12, 2015, 5:12 PM
^^^ Johnny you're always the "bearer of good news". Im still stoked about Mexicana and all the one stop connections from Mexico city! Plus a possible A350 :slob:, rumoured A380 :slob::slob:, and Hainan to Tianjing! And now here comes the 789s!

sacrifice333
Jun 12, 2015, 6:21 PM
^Some very good points. Its a long way to travel from pretty much anywhere. Anyone think Virgin America will start YVR LAX or SFO?

If I'm not mistaken Virgin Atlantic stopped their LHR / YVR service so I don't think it now makes as much sense for Virgin America to tie YVR into their schedule. But we can cross our fingers... I'd expect SFO / YVR might come sooner than LAX / YVR since they've made SFO T2 their primary US hub.

Cage
Jun 12, 2015, 7:51 PM
^Some very good points. Its a long way to travel from pretty much anywhere. Anyone think Virgin America will start YVR LAX or SFO?

Doubtful Virgin America would start services to YVR. Every US based LCC that attempts service to Canada gets is butt handed to them/ Besides there are three airlines all ready on the route (UA, AC, and WS).

If I'm not mistaken Virgin Atlantic stopped their LHR / YVR service so I don't think it now makes as much sense for Virgin America to tie YVR into their schedule. But we can cross our fingers... I'd expect SFO / YVR might come sooner than LAX / YVR since they've made SFO T2 their primary US hub.

Virgin Atlantic got off the YVR route when their new masters (DL) started to divert traffic to SEA.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 12, 2015, 9:48 PM
^^^ Johnny you're always the "bearer of good news". Im still stoked about Mexicana and all the one stop connections from Mexico city! Plus a possible A350 :slob:, rumoured A380 :slob::slob:, and Hainan to Tianjing! And now here comes the 789s!

Thanks but to be fair I try and post anything relevant to YVR even if it may appear to be bad news too. It's just that lately the good news has outweighed the bad news at YVR by a long shot.

Mexicana is gone... I know you meant Aeromexico!

I think YVR will see an A350 well before an A380 but happy to see both :)

trofirhen
Jun 12, 2015, 10:06 PM
^^^ Johnny you're always the "bearer of good news". Im still stoked about Mexicana and all the one stop connections from Mexico city! Plus a possible A350 :slob:, rumoured A380 :slob::slob:, and Hainan to Tianjing! And now here comes the 789s!
Could any of these flights be "same plane" flights to São Paulo or Lima?

Denscity
Jun 13, 2015, 12:27 AM
^^^ Yes I meant AeroMexico and the one stop I mentioned is Mexico City not another stop beyond Mexico City.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 13, 2015, 12:45 AM
So.....

If Hainan does commence YVR flights and all the other routes are the same as this summer.... This could be the YVR-China weekly schedule during the peak summer 2016:

SHE/CTU: 3U 3 weekly 332
PEK: CA 14 weekly 77W; AC 7 weekly 77W
TSN: HU 5 weekly weekly 333 or 332 (equipment unconfirmed)
PVG: MU 11 weekly 332; AC 7 weekly 788
PVG/KMG: MU 3 weekly 332
HKG: CX 14 weekly 77W; AC 7 weekly 77W
CAN: CZ 7 weekly 788

Total: 78 flights per week to 8 destinations

And I am sure Hainan will sign up with Westjet for code shares.

Hourglass
Jun 13, 2015, 3:48 AM
So.....

If Hainan does commence YVR flights and all the other routes are the same as this summer.... This could be the YVR-China weekly schedule during the peak summer 2016:

SHE/CTU: 3U 3 weekly 332
PEK: CA 14 weekly 77W; AC 7 weekly 77W
TSN: HU 5 weekly weekly 333 or 332 (equipment unconfirmed)
PVG: MU 11 weekly 332; AC 7 weekly 788
PVG/KMG: MU 3 weekly 332
HKG: CX 14 weekly 77W; AC 7 weekly 77W
CAN: CZ 7 weekly 788

Total: 78 flights per week to 8 destinations

And I am sure Hainan will sign up with Westjet for code shares.

One hopes Xiamen Airlines will get off the fence, lol. Still really impressive though. I'm guessing that after SFO or maybe LAX, Vancouver probably has the most Chinese destinations of any airport in North America

CareerShow
Jun 13, 2015, 4:44 AM
I think Vancouver might be close to having the most weekly flights.

excel
Jun 13, 2015, 5:23 AM
Last I knew it does have the most weekly flights to China out of any North American airport.

nname
Jun 14, 2015, 7:27 PM
Last I knew it does have the most weekly flights to China out of any North American airport.

LAX beat us. This is what they got this summer from only the 4 major airports:

CAN: CZ 7 weekly
HKG: CX 28 weekly
PEK: CA 14 weekly
PVG: UA 7 weekly; MU 7 weekly; DL 7 weekly; AA 7 weekly

Total: 77x weekly

I haven't checked any secondary airport, but I know there are CSX-LAX and NKG-LAX coming up, and CX is planning to increase its service to 35 weekly.

China-JFK is pretty close too. I think they are at around 60-70 weekly (with 28 coming from CX alone) so we still beat them slightly.

And there's no way we can get any closer if we add TPE into the list. LAX-TPE got 42 weekly while YVR-TPE only have 11 (and will become 12 next summer). This is probably why my parents always complained that YVR's service to Asia is almost non-existent :D

trofirhen
Jun 14, 2015, 9:54 PM
Would all this in any way diminish YVR's role as a gateway city to Asia?

Sure YVR beats out SEA-TAC for china, but will LAX and SFO cause it to be bypassed for connecting flights to the USA & possible Latin America??:???:

Johnny Aussie
Jun 14, 2015, 11:37 PM
Would all this in any way diminish YVR's role as a gateway city to Asia?

Sure YVR beats out SEA-TAC for china, but will LAX and SFO cause it to be bypassed for connecting flights to the USA & possible Latin America??:???:

Yup... YVR is foxtrot uniform charlie kilo echo delta... actually no it's obviously clearly well and truly foxtrot uniform charlie kilo echo delta.

This is the last time I address this.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 14, 2015, 11:54 PM
LAX beat us. This is what they got this summer from only the 4 major airports:

CAN: CZ 7 weekly
HKG: CX 28 weekly
PEK: CA 14 weekly
PVG: UA 7 weekly; MU 7 weekly; DL 7 weekly; AA 7 weekly

Total: 77x weekly

I haven't checked any secondary airport, but I know there are CSX-LAX and NKG-LAX coming up, and CX is planning to increase its service to 35 weekly.

China-JFK is pretty close too. I think they are at around 60-70 weekly (with 28 coming from CX alone) so we still beat them slightly.

And there's no way we can get any closer if we add TPE into the list. LAX-TPE got 42 weekly while YVR-TPE only have 11 (and will become 12 next summer). This is probably why my parents always complained that YVR's service to Asia is almost non-existent :D

Pretty impressive eh? Little YVR up there with the big boys. Hard to imagine why LAX has more flights to China though. Los Angeles is only slightly larger in population what with only 18.4 million people in its CSA. And NYC again just edging Vancouver with just under 24 million people (Damn! that's more people than all of 'Straya... 'Struth!!!)

But yeah time to get serious!

I have to say I was NOT expecting Hainan to come on board so soon though. I'm impressed! As the China market continues to grow look for more secondary markets to open up. Maybe not in the next 12 months but certainly in the medium to long term. And with the upcoming service increases (not just in the summer but winter as well) YVR is in a good position to get more of this huge pie just coming out of the oven. YVR is sitting pretty with a very sizeable O&D to China which Air Canada is projecting to grow faster than any other Canadian market... Pretty much on par with YYZ though. And with approximately 150 über wealthy Chinese immigrating to YVR monthly (via La Belle Provence!) AND the masses of the middle class streaming over as well... I can see why!

As for Xiamen I think they would put JFK ahead of YVR too. Maybe a through flight originating in Fuzhou or Xiamen stopping in YVR may be an option they would consider with 5th freedom on the YVR-JFK sector... Imagine them competing with CX and PR as well. But who knows what is possible.

Hourglass
Jun 15, 2015, 12:05 AM
Yup... YVR is foxtrot uniform charlie kilo echo delta... actually no it's obviously clearly well and truly foxtrot uniform charlie kilo echo delta.

This is the last time I address this.

Lol

Agree with you on the O&D. Vancouver has a surprising amount of mindshare in China and with Canada continuing to be a popular destination for migrants, it's only going to grow.

What are the chances of CX adding another frequency to YVR? My last flight HKG-YVR in May was absolutely jam packed all classes

Johnny Aussie
Jun 15, 2015, 6:37 AM
Lol

Agree with you on the O&D. Vancouver has a surprising amount of mindshare in China and with Canada continuing to be a popular destination for migrants, it's only going to grow.

What are the chances of CX adding another frequency to YVR? My last flight HKG-YVR in May was absolutely jam packed all classes

I think the chances are better than 50/50.

From what I understand AC is also doing very well with its HD 777 on the route.

My comment about Chinese immigration to Vancouver is that Vancouver attracts a much higher percentage of the investor and entrepreneur categories. As I also alluded to they are using the Quebec Investor program as a way to side step into BC and Vancouver. This group has a much higher propensity to travel. So the large O&D to China from Vancouver will only grow at a higher rate than other Canadian markets... this appears to be supported by Air Canada's investor day graph about the Canada-China market.

Most likely I can see more flights to secondary Chinese cities and more flights to CAN. I also expect more flights to TPE and I wouldn't be surprised to see rouge start flying to NGO too.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 16, 2015, 1:26 AM
CAPA has released this report on Philippine Airlines.

http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/philippine-airlines-will-renew-its-long-haul-fleet-with-more-777-300ers-and-potentially-a350-900s-229720

YVR is the second largest international route in its route network, after LAX, based on ASKs of course :)

They are looking at doing MNL-JFK nonstop but do not have any aircraft in their fleet to make the route viable ATM. If they do pick up some A350-900s this will most likely happen. Keeping the A340 on that route also makes the MNL-YVR route with inconsistent product. In the unlikely event I would actually fly PR I certainly know which flight I would choose based on equipment used!!

The report also said they will continue to serve YYZ as a one-stop route via YVR as the attempt at the route nonstop was due to lack of demand and not aircraft performance.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 16, 2015, 8:39 AM
Between 18 Aug and 7 Sep the route reduces from 14 to 12 weekly.
Between 8 Sep and 4 Oct the route reduces to 11 weekly.
Effective 5 Oct the route returns to double daily.

http://airlineroute.net/2015/06/16/aa-yvryeg-aug15/

CareerShow
Jun 16, 2015, 4:32 PM
CAPA has released this report on Philippine Airlines.

http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/philippine-airlines-will-renew-its-long-haul-fleet-with-more-777-300ers-and-potentially-a350-900s-229720

YVR is the second largest international route in its route network, after LAX, based on ASKs of course :)

They are looking at doing MNL-JFK nonstop but do not have any aircraft in their fleet to make the route viable ATM. If they do pick up some A350-900s this will most likely happen. Keeping the A340 on that route also makes the MNL-YVR route with inconsistent product. In the unlikely event I would actually fly PR I certainly know which flight I would choose based on equipment used!!

The report also said they will continue to serve YYZ as a one-stop route via YVR as the attempt at the route nonstop was due to lack of demand and not aircraft performance.
I would invision they will discontinue YVR JFK. Already in the summer time there are delta, Cathay, AC, and United serving new york.

trofirhen
Jun 16, 2015, 6:01 PM
^Here is a list from CAPA of the airports of North America with nonstop links to China. Page starts with a mention of AA Asian growth. Scroll down a bit.
YVR is near the top, but SFO has airlines we don't. Yet
In Vancouvr's case, they omitted, Kunming, Chengdu, and now possibly Tianjing. Interesting list, nonetheless, of you care to open the link:

http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/american-airlines-launches-dallas-beijing-accelerating-us-airlines-refocus-on-china-over-japan-223642

Johnny Aussie
Jun 16, 2015, 7:30 PM
I would invision they will discontinue YVR JFK. Already in the summer time there are delta, Cathay, AC, and United serving new york.

Yes, that's what I was alluding to. Until PR can get its hands on an a/c that makes MNL-JFK viable the YVR stop will remain. Or perhaps keep a few per week via YVR and a few nonstop to JFK.

Pretty hard for PR to beat most trans-pacific competitors using their very dated A340s on that route. But $$$ talks of course and the VFR traffic is their main target anyway. Business travellers would probably just bypass PR and fly via the many other onestop options available.

Edit: in the CAPA article it also mentions that the majority of pax on the MNL-YVR-JFK route are flying through to JFK. But as I said earlier if you were flying MNL-YVR and had to choose one of the 11 flights per week on the route would you pick the 77W or the 343?

Hourglass
Jun 16, 2015, 10:40 PM
But as I said earlier if you were flying MNL-YVR and had to choose one of the 11 flights per week on the route would you pick the 77W or the 343?

Oh 343 for sure. I love the slow laborious climb to 37,000 feet! :haha:

If the YVR-JFK tag was replaced by a non-stop, would PR replace it with another city? Or is this limited by current bilateral agreements? For VFR traffic, I was thinking there are large Filipino communities in a number of US states such as Texas and Florida that may be a stretch for a non-stop flight.

casper
Jun 17, 2015, 12:17 AM
Oh 343 for sure. I love the slow laborious climb to 37,000 feet! :haha:

If the YVR-JFK tag was replaced by a non-stop, would PR replace it with another city? Or is this limited by current bilateral agreements? For VFR traffic, I was thinking there are large Filipino communities in a number of US states such as Texas and Florida that may be a stretch for a non-stop flight.

Miami would be excellent. They can become the default airline for all the Filipino crew who work on cruise ships out of Florida.

On a more serious note, Miami is a destination that Vancouver would benefit form having and if it helps PR fill the aircraft even better.

Large Cat
Jun 17, 2015, 3:20 AM
Guess what! Westjet Announces 767 direct flights to London (http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/westjet-to-launch-new-long-haul-route-from-canada-to-london-1.2424976)!

The article doesn't mention specific cities/routes, but says "several Canadian cities". Do you think Vancouver's included?

CareerShow
Jun 17, 2015, 3:26 AM
I would really like to see Miami

Johnny Aussie
Jun 17, 2015, 4:42 AM
Oh 343 for sure. I love the slow laborious climb to 37,000 feet! :haha:

If the YVR-JFK tag was replaced by a non-stop, would PR replace it with another city? Or is this limited by current bilateral agreements? For VFR traffic, I was thinking there are large Filipino communities in a number of US states such as Texas and Florida that may be a stretch for a non-stop flight.

I understand the bilateral allows one city (not designated) to the US beyond YVR. I know SAN was really going after having that changed so they could get direct flights through YVR. Basically the days the flights didn't go to Vegas. AC lobbied very hard against PR getting even just one additional frequency to LAS back in the day. Read the arguments on the CTA rulings.

Guess what! Westjet Announces 767 direct flights to London (http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/westjet-to-launch-new-long-haul-route-from-canada-to-london-1.2424976)!

The article doesn't mention specific cities/routes, but says "several Canadian cities". Do you think Vancouver's included?

Well... Maybe not in round one but maybe round two. I'd say YYC is a given and then after that who knows! YYZ is by far the largest Canadian-UK market followed by a distant second YVR, then a distant (but not as distant between 1&2) third YYC, a distant (but not as distant between 2&3) fourth YUL then a very distant fifth YEG. YVR is still much larger than the entire Alberta market, but with Westjet's main hub at YYC, I think that's a given. Plus, it can feed its flights from all over Western Canada. YYZ would provide the biggest pool by far but some very heavy duty competition. Certainly some tough competition in both YYC and YVR as well. So who knows though maybe WS will surprise us all where else they go other than YYC.

Miami would be excellent. They can become the default airline for all the Filipino crew who work on cruise ships out of Florida.

On a more serious note, Miami is a destination that Vancouver would benefit form having and if it helps PR fill the aircraft even better.

Yup. I can honestly see rouge stepping up with more flights to PSP and taking over KOA. Also, I could see rouge launching LIH, MIA, MCO, SAN and SNA... certainly not all at once, not necessarily daily, and not necessarily in that order... All in due time!

Klazu
Jun 17, 2015, 4:56 AM
Why is Westjet always advertised as "low-cost carrier"? There is nothing low-cost in them IMO. Maybe once they were cheaper, but today they seem like your regular airline to me. :shrug:

deasine
Jun 17, 2015, 5:03 AM
YYZ might be a difficult market for WS to enter I think because there's 4-5 flights alone from Air Canada, followed by another 2-3 from British Airways. Whereas YVR has much fewer flights per day, 1 from AC and 1-2 from BA. With the exit of VS, there might be a better opportunity here...

Johnny Aussie
Jun 17, 2015, 5:13 AM
YYZ might be a difficult market for WS to enter I think because there's 4-5 flights alone from Air Canada, followed by another 2-3 from British Airways. Whereas YVR has much fewer flights per day, 1 from AC and 1-2 from BA. With the exit of VS, there might be a better opportunity here...

And don't forget Air Transat which offers 6 weekly flights from YVR-LGW in the summer (up from 5 weekly last summer). Although the exit of VS certainly would help.

All up in the summer YVR-UK has 28 weekly flights and a lot of seats:

AC 7 weekly YVR-LHR on the HD 77W
BA 12 weekly YVR-LHR on 744s
TS 6 weekly YVR-LGW on 332s
TS 2 weekly YVR-MAN on 332s
TS 1 weekly YVR-GLA on 332s

YYC has 23 flights per week in the summer to the UK albeit on smaller aircraft (other than the TS 332s) but that's still some significant capacity.

Hourglass
Jun 17, 2015, 6:43 AM
And don't forget Air Transat which offers 6 weekly flights from YVR-LGW in the summer (up from 5 weekly last summer). Although the exit of VS certainly would help.

All up in the summer YVR-UK has 28 weekly flights and a lot of seats:

AC 7 weekly YVR-LHR on the HD 77W
BA 12 weekly YVR-LHR on 744s
TS 6 weekly YVR-LGW on 332s
TS 2 weekly YVR-MAN on 332s
TS 1 weekly YVR-GLA on 332s

YYC has 23 flights per week in the summer to the UK albeit on smaller aircraft (other than the TS 332s) but that's still some significant capacity.

Since YYZ and YYC (and YVR) already have a slew of flights to London; might it make more sense to launch YEG or maybe even Winnipeg? I understand the Icelandair flight from YEG is doing really well? Agree YYC is probably a given, but wonder whether there's a better opportunity for WS in non-hub airports

Hourglass
Jun 17, 2015, 11:04 AM
An interesting write-up about YVR's competitive positioning (particularly vis-a-vis SEA) and the importance of the expanded visa-free transit program for Latin aamerican connections:

http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/vancouver-international-airports-vision-to-connect-asia-with-latin-america-as-traffic-jumps-230276

Nothing really new but a good read nonetheless.

trofirhen
Jun 17, 2015, 1:16 PM
An interesting write-up about YVR's competitive positioning (particularly vis-a-vis SEA) and the importance of the expanded visa-free transit program for Latin aamerican connections:

http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/vancouver-international-airports-vision-to-connect-asia-with-latin-america-as-traffic-jumps-230276

Nothing really new but a good read nonetheless.
This is exciting anyway, to see YVR grow the way it is doing.

I can't help but laugh at Calin Rovinescu's remark last year that without a strong Air Canada hub at YVR,
the airport risked becoming a "stub" airport, with routes leading into the hubs of foreign (ooooh and especially non Star-Alliance) airlines.
Well, Mr.Rovinescu, we're doing well as a "stub" thank you very much, and the majority of our new airlines seem to be SKYTEAM, sometimes ONEWORLD, (and a few *A members as well).

twoNeurons
Jun 17, 2015, 3:34 PM
YYZ might be a difficult market for WS to enter I think because there's 4-5 flights alone from Air Canada, followed by another 2-3 from British Airways. Whereas YVR has much fewer flights per day, 1 from AC and 1-2 from BA. With the exit of VS, there might be a better opportunity here...

What kind of aircraft would WS need to fly from YYZ, YYC or YVR?

deasine
Jun 17, 2015, 3:56 PM
What kind of aircraft would WS need to fly from YYZ, YYC or YVR?

Well they only have a few old 767s (from QF if I'm not mistaken). YYC is most likely a definite given that it's their main hub in Western Canada. Ultimately I find YYZ going to be very terribly challenging for WS to enter in given the sheer number of frequencies from both Air Canada and British Airways, whereas Westjet will be competing in relatively equal footing in terms of frequencies (not in terms of product or capacity) for YVR. But there are also a lot of feeder routes at YYZ...

SFUVancouver
Jun 17, 2015, 7:19 PM
Why is Westjet always advertised as "low-cost carrier"? There is nothing low-cost in them IMO. Maybe once they were cheaper, but today they seem like your regular airline to me. :shrug:

In general it is because they follow the low-cost carrier philosophy, which includes:

- Minimal range of aircraft models, and ideally one model, to simplify supply chain, maintenance, training, and benefit from economies of scale.

- Charge for in-flight services (meals, entertainment, etc.)

- Short dwell times and quick turn-around to maximize revenue hours per aircraft per day.

SpongeG
Jun 17, 2015, 7:52 PM
will be interesting to see what happens with westjet if/when they unionize

Klazu
Jun 17, 2015, 8:47 PM
In general it is because they follow the low-cost carrier philosophy, which includes:

- Minimal range of aircraft models, and ideally one model, to simplify supply chain, maintenance, training, and benefit from economies of scale.

- Charge for in-flight services (meals, entertainment, etc.)

- Short dwell times and quick turn-around to maximize revenue hours per aircraft per day.

Those may only benefit their bottom line. Price wise they are nothing but low-cost carrier. Even the "ultra low-cost carriers" in North America seem ridiculously expensive to us Europeans. :rolleyes:

casper
Jun 17, 2015, 9:29 PM
In general it is because they follow the low-cost carrier philosophy, which includes:

- Minimal range of aircraft models, and ideally one model, to simplify supply chain, maintenance, training, and benefit from economies of scale.

- Charge for in-flight services (meals, entertainment, etc.)

- Short dwell times and quick turn-around to maximize revenue hours per aircraft per day.

They are quickly moving away from those:

- Only one type of aircraft. They now operate 3 versions of the 737, the Dash-8 and the 767 by the end of the year.

- All the legacy airlines now charge for in-flight service

- The short dwell time primarily works for airlines that are doing point to point. As they move to handling a lot of connecting traffic that goes away. If you look at WestJet in Calgary it is all banked.

Low cost airlines also usually try to have the following (that WestJet is also moving away from):

- Single class of service (there plus product is becoming more like Air Canada business class every day)

- No lounges (they currently contract out business lounges, but they do have them)

- No interlining (they now interline with every major non-star alliance foreign carrier that services Canada)

Every day Westjet is becoming more and more like a full service airline.

Most of the low-cost features they use to have simply don't work in Canada beyond a certain size. If all you do is shuttle passengers to Vegas or Mexico you can operate a simple point-to-point type low-cost service. If you want to service most of the Canadian market you have to do more. WestJet is doing more now.

SFUVancouver
Jun 17, 2015, 9:31 PM
Those may only benefit their bottom line. Price wise they are nothing but low-cost carrier. Even the "ultra low-cost carriers" in North America seem ridiculously expensive to us Europeans. :rolleyes:

I'll leave it to others far more knowledgeable than I to delve into the explanations for why airfares are so much lower in Europe than in North America, but I will throw out the obligatory nod towards the differences in geographic area (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b0/e5/a5/b0e5a5bc7b46a7296680400eed9fef71.jpg) and population density (http://i3.minus.com/jbdYIVUDou6gBV.jpg). As a bonus, the Great Lakes compared to Western Europe (http://i.imgur.com/dEy5D.jpg), at the same scale.

Klazu
Jun 17, 2015, 9:50 PM
I will throw out the obligatory nod towards the differences in geographic area (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b0/e5/a5/b0e5a5bc7b46a7296680400eed9fef71.jpg) and population density (http://i3.minus.com/jbdYIVUDou6gBV.jpg). As a bonus, the Great Lakes compared to Western Europe (http://i.imgur.com/dEy5D.jpg), at the same scale.

That's just what North American airlines want you to believe. ;)

Ryanair is based out of tiny Ireland (Dublin is their biggest base after Stansted) and yet they manage to transport cattle across Europe for tenth of the price it costs to fly coast-to-coast in North America. Same thing with many low-cost airlines operating out of Spain and flying people from Nordic Countries to Canary Islands (it's a 6-hours flight) cheaply. I refuse believe that distances in here make for the 10x prices.

I hate it that my friends from Finland will have it cheaper to travel to Vancouver than it costs me to fly there and back. They will also have it cheaper to fly to New York than for me from Vancouver. I also find it ridiculous that the cheapest flights from Vancouver to nearest popular destinations like Las Vegas or Los Angeles never go under $200. In Europe you can rather easily find tickets that are below $50 and take you just as far.

The prices in here are just out of portion. One would think that transportation would be cheap in a oil-producing country like Canada, but it is anything but! I blame the government and the anti-competitive system both Canada and US have. We label ourselves as the forespeakers of free markets and trade, but in reality we are the worst protectionists! Grrrr. :hell:

CareerShow
Jun 17, 2015, 10:37 PM
Travel in Europe is cheaper because of the smaller distances needed to travel from point A to point B. Also there are more alternatives, such as train, car, bus etc. and more airlines crammed into a smaller space.

MalcolmTucker
Jun 17, 2015, 10:41 PM
And a different attitude about the value of airports to society as a whole.

trofirhen
Jun 18, 2015, 10:43 AM
This link might be interesting to some ...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/college-tourist/lowcost-airlines-revoluti_b_7600480.html

Delirium
Jun 18, 2015, 12:51 PM
vancitybuzz posted a bunch of construction photos of the new outlet mall at yvr. gotta say, it looks pretty good.

http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/06/vancouver-airport-outlet-mall-photos/

DKaz
Jun 18, 2015, 4:39 PM
I was just on site last Monday and it looked nothing like that. Of course they're all in a rush to get the mall open by July 9 but the rate of construction is just phenomenal.

sacrifice333
Jun 18, 2015, 5:03 PM
Looks like it's coming together quite nicely. But the lack of decent awnings or rain cover is going to make this place epic come Vancouver's typical fall & winter weather! :tup:

casper
Jun 19, 2015, 3:03 AM
vancitybuzz posted a bunch of construction photos of the new outlet mall at yvr. gotta say, it looks pretty good.

http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/06/vancouver-airport-outlet-mall-photos/

You kind of get a "Disneyland" feel looking at those photos. However maybe it does not matter, it still looks like it will be a nice experience shopping there if it is not real.

Hourglass
Jun 19, 2015, 6:56 AM
You kind of get a "Disneyland" feel looking at those photos. However maybe it does not matter, it still looks like it will be a nice experience shopping there if it is not real.

Went by it on the Canada Line a couple of weeks ago -- reminds me a lot of the outlet malls in Europe such as Bicester Village (UK) and Ingolstadt near Munich. Both of these have the same faux-Disney feel but if they're anything to go by, the YVR mall should do very well -- particularly with Vancouver's large Asian population. I've actually been to the McArthurGlen outlet mall in Salzburg, which was very nice (if small).

My last trip to Bicester a couple of years ago, Asians (particularly Mainland Chinese) made up probably around 30-40% of customers.

Hot Rod
Jun 20, 2015, 4:27 AM
Turbulence in SEA for DL:

http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/249527/delta-cancels-seattle-tokyo-haneda-from-oct-2015/

they can't seem to make business routes effective; first the very short lived SEA-KIX and now SEA-HND are history.

dubsH
Jun 20, 2015, 6:43 AM
Turbulence in SEA for DL:

http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/249527/delta-cancels-seattle-tokyo-haneda-from-oct-2015/

they can't seem to make business routes effective; first the very short lived SEA-KIX and now SEA-HND are history.

It's actually because of a DoT ruling where DL must operate the route daily in order to keep the USA-HND slot and they didn't/couldn't - hence the cancellation. They were operating it perhaps a dozen times during the last winter session, which led to other airlines complaining.

trofirhen
Jun 20, 2015, 8:29 AM
Turbulence in SEA for DL:

http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/249527/delta-cancels-seattle-tokyo-haneda-from-oct-2015/

they can't seem to make business routes effective; first the very short lived SEA-KIX and now SEA-HND are history.

It's actually because of a DoT ruling where DL must operate the route daily in order to keep the USA-HND slot and they didn't/couldn't - hence the cancellation. They were operating it perhaps a dozen times during the last winter session, which led to other airlines complaining.

Is Seattle's loss Vancouver's gain? One would assume so.

Cage
Jun 20, 2015, 7:16 PM
It's actually because of a DoT ruling where DL must operate the route daily in order to keep the USA-HND slot and they didn't/couldn't - hence the cancellation. They were operating it perhaps a dozen times during the last winter session, which led to other airlines complaining.

Its not just a daily requirement, its a daily year round with no provision for seasonal withdrawal. The traffic profile on this route (and all other routes in/out of Japan) is highly seasonal. Plus the slot into and out of HND are terrible. Only HA is making money out of HND, and then only because the Japanese love their annual Hawaii vacation just as much as Canadian's love LAS vacations.

Finally keep in mind this HND slot was originally AA on the JFK-HND flight. AA couldn't make a go of it and DL picked up the slot for SEA-HND to supplement LAX-HND. The slot will return to AA (although now the post merger AA) for LAX-HND.

This slot pair has gone through more changes than Michael Sam has played football teams. Both situations have seen numerous disappointments.

Cage
Jun 20, 2015, 7:24 PM
Is Seattle's loss Vancouver's gain? One would assume so.

DL will continue to operate SEA-NRT flights, so i expect pax will continue to utilized DL services to TYO rather than switch to YVR.

I would not call this a gain for YVR, more like a great defensive move (blocked shot in hockey erms) as YVR-HND is at daytime which makes it commercially viable. Also helps that there are separate airlines on YVR-HND and YVR-NRT.

Gordon
Jun 20, 2015, 7:38 PM
Another thing that helps the YVR HND route work is that Haneda is ANA's Hub with multiple connecting flights. I suspect that Delta soes have a hub there.

trofirhen
Jun 20, 2015, 7:53 PM
I read that AA is going to take over the SEA - HND route.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but between YVR and SEA, YVR seems to have a much more solid Asia footprint (as has been mentioned),
and that seems to include Japan.

YVR Bruce
Jun 20, 2015, 8:20 PM
April Sea-Tac Passenger traffic increased 13% from last year.

Per:
https://www.portseattle.org/About/Publications/Statistics/Airport-Statistics/Pages/default.aspx

Click on Current and Historic Traffic and Operations Statistics and download the Excel spreadsheet for April 2015.

From April ’14 to April ’15:

April / 2015 April / 2014 Amt Change %Change
PASSENGERS
Domestic Passengers – IN 1,452,243 / 1,295,271 / 156,972 / 12.12%
Domestic Passengers – OUT 1,442,364 / 1,269,692 / 172,672 /13.60%
Subtotal – Domestic Passengers 2,894,607 / 2,564,963 / 329,644 / 12.85%

International Passengers – IN 173,782 / 148,385 / 25,397 /17.12%
International Passengers – OUT 159,684 / 139,425 / 20,259 / 14.53%
Subtotal – International Passengers 333,466 / 287,810 / 45,656 / 15.86%

Total Passengers – IN 1,626,025 1,443,656 182,369 12.63%
Total Passengers – OUT 1,602,048 1,409,117 192,931 13.69%
PASSENGER GRAND TOTAL 3,228,073 2,852,773 375,300 13.16%

Note SEA's international is only 10% of their total. Lots of room to grow.

sacrifice333
Jun 20, 2015, 8:35 PM
Is Seattle's loss Vancouver's gain? One would assume so.

I wouldn't really think so too much... how many American's would look at routes going North through YVR. I would expect most would choose a route with a layover in Asia or one in either SFO or LAX before a YVR one. Just conjecture though.

trofirhen
Jun 20, 2015, 9:59 PM
I wouldn't really think so too much... how many American's would look at routes going North through YVR. I would expect most would choose a route with a layover in Asia or one in either SFO or LAX before a YVR one. Just conjecture though.
Yes, I think you're right. However, I think this little glitch in Seattle might give YVR the upper hand regarding Asia, and the possibility of
developing into a transfer hub with less threat from SEA-TAC.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 20, 2015, 11:50 PM
Tweet from YVR earlier...

@yvrairport: Our friends from Down Under are back! @Qantas returns to YVR for seasonal service w/ special livery: http://twitter.com/yvrairport/status/612367369717968896/photo/1

They are here until mid July then back again in December for a longer period than last winter.

teriyaki
Jun 20, 2015, 11:56 PM
I read that AA is going to take over the SEA - HND route.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but between YVR and SEA, YVR seems to have a much more solid Asia footprint (as has been mentioned),
and that seems to include Japan.

AA will assume the rights to the Haneda slots to operate out of their LAX hub. The slot time is still horrible for connections in HND, we will see how they do with this.

Yes, I think you're right. However, I think this little glitch in Seattle might give YVR the upper hand regarding Asia, and the possibility of
developing into a transfer hub with less threat from SEA-TAC.

I wouldn't discredit this route failing so much to SEA as it is to the timing of it. The US Airlines really didn't get much when they were allocated the HND Slots. I assume why the ANA flight out of YVR works well (and I say that optimistically because they have been heavily discounting this route lately) is because the Japanese airlines got much better selection in their time slot.

casper
Jun 21, 2015, 4:59 PM
Tweet from YVR earlier...

@yvrairport: Our friends from Down Under are back! @Qantas returns to YVR for seasonal service w/ special livery: http://twitter.com/yvrairport/status/612367369717968896/photo/1

They are here until mid July then back again in December for a longer period than last winter.

Nice. That said, what a conservative airline. Hopefully overtime they move towards these two seasonal services keep growing. I guess part of the problem is Qantas does not have the optimal aircraft for the route in the fleet yet.

Is WestJet and Qantas code sharing or interlining yet?

trofirhen
Jun 21, 2015, 5:38 PM
Nice. That said, what a conservative airline. Hopefully overtime they move towards these two seasonal services keep growing. I guess part of the problem is Qantas does not have the optimal aircraft for the route in the fleet yet.

Is WestJet and Qantas code sharing or interlining yet?
I'd love to see QANTAS back full time. Love how the name "rings," love the logo. Years and years ago, my grandmother set sail for
a return trip to NZ on it. Maybe QF and AC can divvy up the YVR - MEL and SYD routes of the future when they get the right aircraft.

Canadian74
Jun 21, 2015, 6:08 PM
Why is Westjet always advertised as "low-cost carrier"? There is nothing low-cost in them IMO. Maybe once they were cheaper, but today they seem like your regular airline to me. :shrug:

It's low cost for the carrier, not the passenger, otherwise it would be "low fare airline".

Klazu
Jun 21, 2015, 6:59 PM
It's low cost for the carrier, not the passenger, otherwise it would be "low fare airline".

Ain't that the truth! It is just misleading, as many people will associate "low-cost carrier" meaning that they offer cheap flights thanks to their "optimized" cost structure, but that isn't the case with Westjet. Less service for the same price.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 21, 2015, 10:01 PM
Nice. That said, what a conservative airline. Hopefully overtime they move towards these two seasonal services keep growing. I guess part of the problem is Qantas does not have the optimal aircraft for the route in the fleet yet.

Is WestJet and Qantas code sharing or interlining yet?

Yes, code sharing in Canada between WS and QF started last October (I believe it was around October).

And definitely, QF's problem with YVR-SYD is having a suitable aircraft to service that route year-round.

The consensus Downunder is that SYD-YVR will be one of the first routes, if not the launch route, when an eventual 787-900 order is finalised. That would be the perfect aircraft for this route.

AC's days of a monopoly on YVR-SYD are numbered.

casper
Jun 22, 2015, 6:04 AM
Ain't that the truth! It is just misleading, as many people will associate "low-cost carrier" meaning that they offer cheap flights thanks to their "optimized" cost structure, but that isn't the case with Westjet. Less service for the same price.

I think the "Low-cost carrier" designation for WestJet is on the way out.

Most of the things that keep costs low have been abandoned. Specifically:

They interline with other airlines - Low cost airlines usually avoid that complexity.
They have lounges (or at least have arrangement with multi-use lounges.
They hub for connection. Most low cost airlines are point to point.
They have multi-fleets to better serve local and international market. Most low cost airlines avoid that complexity.


I think they are closer to Alaska airlines than a low cost airline.

casper
Jun 22, 2015, 6:07 AM
Yes, code sharing in Canada between WS and QF started last October (I believe it was around October).

And definitely, QF's problem with YVR-SYD is having a suitable aircraft to service that route year-round.

The consensus Downunder is that SYD-YVR will be one of the first routes, if not the launch route, when an eventual 787-900 order is finalised. That would be the perfect aircraft for this route.

AC's days of a monopoly on YVR-SYD are numbered.

Good move for consumers. Also having QF operating into Vancouver makes it easier for AC to argue to the governments in both country that its cap on the number of seats should be increased to permit daily service to two cities in Australia.

Competition is good.

trofirhen
Jun 23, 2015, 3:53 PM
Good move for consumers. Also having QF operating into Vancouver makes it easier for AC to argue to the governments in both country that its cap on the number of seats should be increased to permit daily service to two cities in Australia.

Competition is good.
Is there a cap on the # of seats? For real? Unreal!
I'd love to lift that, and get MEL, SYD, and BNE.
Give BNE to AC, and let QF have the two major city runs! Ha!

Klazu
Jun 23, 2015, 4:11 PM
Can we PLEASE not repeat same topics and arguments over and over again without there being any new development? Thank you. :rolleyes:

twoNeurons
Jun 23, 2015, 6:25 PM
Ain't that the truth! It is just misleading, as many people will associate "low-cost carrier" meaning that they offer cheap flights thanks to their "optimized" cost structure, but that isn't the case with Westjet. Less service for the same price.

It's good for WestJet to be seen of as Low cost, while not actually being low cost. Canadians are more forgiving of low cost things not actually being low cost.

WestJet was modelled after SouthWest. I'm not sure how much they have in common these days, though.

Allegiant is what I would call a true low-cost airline and we don't really have any of these "bus in the air" airlines in Canada that I know of. I think we could support one, given that Canada is even more urban than the US... it's just that Airline startups haven't had a good run in decades past... partly due to lobbying from the incumbents, partly due to incompetence.

Canada 3000, Harmony Air, Greyhound Air... am I missing any?

Any name ideas for a true low-cost Canadian carrier?

Air Canuck?
Maple leaf Air?
Air Canada Goose? ( Air Canada would love that one )
Air Canadiana?

sacrifice333
Jun 23, 2015, 8:45 PM
It's good for WestJet to be seen of as Low cost, while not actually being low cost. Canadians are more forgiving of low cost things not actually being low cost.

WestJet was modelled after SouthWest. I'm not sure how much they have in common these days, though.

Allegiant is what I would call a true low-cost airline and we don't really have any of these "bus in the air" airlines in Canada that I know of. I think we could support one, given that Canada is even more urban than the US... it's just that Airline startups haven't had a good run in decades past... partly due to lobbying from the incumbents, partly due to incompetence.

Canada 3000, Harmony Air, Greyhound Air... am I missing any?

Any name ideas for a true low-cost Canadian carrier?

Air Canuck?
Maple leaf Air?
Air Canada Goose? ( Air Canada would love that one )
Air Canadiana?

Allegiant used to be a low-cost carrier in terms of the customer paying a "low cost". They've long been anything close to that. They sometimes result in a good fare on select point-to-point service runs, but the days of cheap Allegiant fares are long gone. Add to that the ridiculous fees for EVERYTHING and the check-in, boarding, etc. hassles and there's very seldom a reason to fly them.

When I flew Round-Trip to LGB from BLI for approx. $26pp on that route's launch it was completely worth it. When it's the same price as Alaska Air there's zero point in boarding that cattle pen in the sky!

twoNeurons
Jun 23, 2015, 10:25 PM
Allegiant used to be a low-cost carrier in terms of the customer paying a "low cost". They've long been anything close to that. They sometimes result in a good fare on select point-to-point service runs, but the days of cheap Allegiant fares are long gone. Add to that the ridiculous fees for EVERYTHING and the check-in, boarding, etc. hassles and there's very seldom a reason to fly them.

When I flew Round-Trip to LGB from BLI for approx. $26pp on that route's launch it was completely worth it. When it's the same price as Alaska Air there's zero point in boarding that cattle pen in the sky!

Wow... I just compared flights in February from BLI to PHX. Allegient: $222, Alaska $250 return. I'm kind of surprised.

Why is Europe able to host EasyJet and RyanAir?

Johnny Aussie
Jun 23, 2015, 10:31 PM
IATA Slot Conference kicked off at the Vancouver Convention Centre today.

https://www.iata.org/events/sc136/pages/index.aspx

Maybe we will see some interesting news come out of it.

Good exposure for YVR in any case.

sacrifice333
Jun 23, 2015, 10:50 PM
Wow... I just compared flights in February from BLI to PHX. Allegient: $222, Alaska $250 return. I'm kind of surprised.

Why is Europe able to host EasyJet and RyanAir?

Exactly. And that's before all the fees AND hoops you get to jump through! :koko:

trofirhen
Jun 24, 2015, 12:32 AM
Even in Europe, where low cost airlines seem so reasonable, there are nonetheless hidden fees.
Reading this might cause one to be less cynical about WestJet:

http://the-travel-guru.com/2013/01/beware-of-easyjet-hidden-fees.html

http://www.landingstanding.com/beware-ryanair-the-hidden-physical-mental-financial-costs/

http://www.frugaltravelguy.com/2014/05/do-low-cost-carriers-really-provide-the-lowest-fares.html

Gordon
Jun 24, 2015, 2:23 AM
WestJes't original business modes was patterned after Southwest Airlines but today they are more akin to Alaska Airlines

CareerShow
Jun 24, 2015, 4:18 PM
Allegiant air is not worth driving down to bellingham when you can fly out of YVR. Sure the fare may be a bit cheaper but when you include the drive down (border, traffic, etc.) and flight flexibility (eg. Cancellations, etc.) flying out of YVR is far more efficient and cheaper if you include time as money.

casper
Jun 26, 2015, 1:58 AM
Is there a cap on the # of seats? For real? Unreal!
I'd love to lift that, and get MEL, SYD, and BNE.
Give BNE to AC, and let QF have the two major city runs! Ha!

Yes Canadian airlines (AC) are limited to 3,000 seats per week and Australia (QF + V Australia) are limited to 3,000 seats per week.

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/australia