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trofirhen
Jun 26, 2015, 5:31 AM
Yes Canadian airlines (AC) are limited to 3,000 seats per week and Australia (QF + V Australia) are limited to 3,000 seats per week.

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/australia

I wonder the reasoning or logic behind that (and other routes as well, I'm sure).

Cage
Jun 26, 2015, 6:13 AM
I wonder the reasoning or logic behind that (and other routes as well, I'm sure).

The Australia canada bilateral agree,met was signed in 1988 and predates any open skies agreement. Back in the day bilateral air transport agreements were highly restrictive, mostly for bureaucratic reasons.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 26, 2015, 8:06 AM
Only for a week but why not eh??

@airlineroute: ANA to fly 787-9 on Tokyo Haneda - Vancouver route, from 17OCT15 to 24OCT15

trofirhen
Jun 26, 2015, 2:10 PM
The Australia canada bilateral agree,met was signed in 1988 and predates any open skies agreement. Back in the day bilateral air transport agreements were highly restrictive, mostly for bureaucratic reasons.
Could this be changed now to allow for higher pax capacity?

Cage
Jun 26, 2015, 5:36 PM
Could this be changed now to allow for higher pax capacity?

From Canada side, absolutely it can be changed. However the Australian side has no incentive to increase seat capacity. Actually there is an incentive not to increase capacity.

QF (just the mainline carrier) is dependent upon the Australia-USA routes for their livelihood, there is nothing else left for them save for a few routes between Japan and Austrlia. The european routes have been ceded to the ME3 and Asian routes have gone to the LCCs. Finally QF does not have the optimal equipment type for the route where as AC does. So overall no incentive update the bilateral.

CareerShow
Jun 26, 2015, 8:13 PM
Only for a week but why not eh??

@airlineroute: ANA to fly 787-9 on Tokyo Haneda - Vancouver route, from 17OCT15 to 24OCT15
Do we know which 787-8 and 787-9 ANA is sending?

CareerShow
Jun 26, 2015, 9:30 PM
Also, a bit off topic, but does anyone know how the films "Just Planes" are able to film inside the cockpit?

trofirhen
Jun 26, 2015, 9:50 PM
From Canada side, absolutely it can be changed. However the Australian side has no incentive to increase seat capacity. Actually there is an incentive not to increase capacity.

QF (just the mainline carrier) is dependent upon the Australia-USA routes for their livelihood, there is nothing else left for them save for a few routes between Japan and Austrlia. The european routes have been ceded to the ME3 and Asian routes have gone to the LCCs. Finally QF does not have the optimal equipment type for the route where as AC does. So overall no incentive update the bilateral.

Thank you for this informative reply. Is this a possible example of where the M3 have "cannibalized" routes, (in this case QF)?
Or did the Australians get into this, with prior awareness that this would happen?
I ask this not only because of Canada's restrictive policies towards the M3, but also the incidental fact that EK flies not only to LHR and Manchester, but also Birmingham, Dublin, Glasgow, and EVEN Newcastle-on-Tyne in England.
Does EK have fifth freedoms from these UK cities or what? It all seems a bit unreal to me.
** Back on topic, does the unwillingness of Australia to raise the cap on pax # preclude eventual Melbourne service? I hope not.

deasine
Jun 26, 2015, 11:03 PM
Thank you for this informative reply. Is this a possible example of where the M3 have "cannibalized" routes, (in this case QF)?
Or did the Australians get into this, with prior awareness that this would happen?
I ask this not only because of Canada's restrictive policies towards the M3, but also the incidental fact that EK flies not only to LHR and Manchester, but also Birmingham, Dublin, Glasgow, and EVEN Newcastle-on-Tyne in England.
Does EK have fifth freedoms from these UK cities or what? It all seems a bit unreal to me.
** Back on topic, does the unwillingness of Australia to raise the cap on pax # preclude eventual Melbourne service? I hope not.

You are comparing apples to celery here! What goes on in the UK and Ireland (which are under separate bilaterals although the EU is trying to change this) has no relation to what goes on between Canada and Australia. Just because Emirates can fly to these countries doesn't mean they have fifth freedom rights to fly to other ports of call from those countries. And no, they do not have fifth freedom rights. The UK was once very open back when the first generation of open skies were negotiated with the US, but this was all clawed back when they realised UK airlines were suffering as a result of the US airlines.

Yes, the agreement does restrict potential service to Australia. Which is why I don't see the Sydney route being "upgraded" anytime soon to a HD configuration if they were to fly to Brisbane as it would reach the maximum seat capacity between the two countries.

trofirhen
Jun 26, 2015, 11:34 PM
..............

Yes, the agreement does restrict potential service to Australia. Which is why I don't see the Sydney route being "upgraded" anytime soon to a HD configuration if they were to fly to Brisbane as it would reach the maximum seat capacity between the two countries.

We can erase Melbourne from our hopes and plans, if that's the case. Pity.

casper
Jun 27, 2015, 1:24 AM
We can erase Melbourne from our hopes and plans, if that's the case. Pity.

Air Canada operates the 777-200ER with 228+48 = 276 (lets assume after the "upgrades to 3-4-3 and PE) it is something like 300. That is 2,100 seats. They still have room for a second service 3 tines a week.

I am assuming the cap is per direction. I am not certain if that assumption is correct or not.

I think at the end of the day the M3 are going drive the Australian aviation industry to being mostly a domestic service with a few token long range international routes.

Several years ago Canada (and Air Canada) was pushing for a YYZ-LAX-SYD route. It was a no go with the Australian authorities. Canada had the rights to between SFO or Hawaii but not LAX. You can guess which airline had there LAX-SYD as their bread and butter route. Today LAX-SYD has a lot of competition. Not certain QF will maintain its market share in the long run.

Back when these agreements were negotiated there was not a lot demand. Air Canada (and Canadian before them and Canadian Pacific before them) had a stop in Hawaii with fifth freedom rights. That was partially due to the fact they did not have an aircraft that could make it all the way and partially due to the fact that they could not fill an aircraft to Australia. For many years it was a 767 and did take on a certain amount of local Australia to Hawaii service.

casper
Jun 27, 2015, 1:30 AM
Thank you for this informative reply. Is this a possible example of where the M3 have "cannibalized" routes, (in this case QF)?
Or did the Australians get into this, with prior awareness that this would happen?
I ask this not only because of Canada's restrictive policies towards the M3, but also the incidental fact that EK flies not only to LHR and Manchester, but also Birmingham, Dublin, Glasgow, and EVEN Newcastle-on-Tyne in England.
Does EK have fifth freedoms from these UK cities or what? It all seems a bit unreal to me.
** Back on topic, does the unwillingness of Australia to raise the cap on pax # preclude eventual Melbourne service? I hope not.

The M3 focus is on connecting the UK (and the rest of Europe) with India, Australia and a host of smaller destinations in Asia, the middle east and Africa. It makes it hard on the European airlines, they are slowing reducing flights. The UK has a lot of people with business and/or family ties to places like Australia, India, Pakistan, etc. Makes it easy to fill those aircraft.

Air Canada is making good use of its quote. QF (and other Australian airlines) are not using their quota at all.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 27, 2015, 1:59 AM
I am assuming the cap is per direction. I am not certain if that assumption is correct or not.

I think at the end of the day the M3 are going drive the Australian aviation industry to being mostly a domestic service with a few token long range international routes.

Today LAX-SYD has a lot of competition. Not certain QF will maintain its market share in the long run.

Back when these agreements were negotiated there was not a lot demand. Air Canada (and Canadian before them and Canadian Pacific before them) had a stop in Hawaii with fifth freedom rights. That was partially due to the fact they did not have an aircraft that could make it all the way and partially due to the fact that they could not fill an aircraft to Australia. For many years it was a 767 and did take on a certain amount of local Australia to Hawaii service.

Air Canada is making good use of its quote. QF (and other Australian airlines) are not using their quota at all.

To quickly address all your points....

Yes the cap is weekly seats each way per country.

The ME3 is definitely hurting a lot of Aussie routes, not just Aussie airlines.
Malaysia Airlines, for example, with its upcoming restructure is pulling all BNE flights and reducing MEL, SYD, ADL and PER. However, there is still a lot of potential for International routes for Aussie carriers. Everything this side of the Middle East, North and South America and even possibly Africa. Growth will continue to push into Asia, however, QF has to contend with the big Chinese Airlines and some very strong Asian airlines in other areas, plus a lot of LCC competition so it's not just the ME3.

LAX-SYD is about to get another player too. QF, UA, DL, VA and now AA will all be flying the route non-stop. Although, QF and AA are in bed together. I wouldn't be surprised to see VA pull all longhaul international services.

Air Canada is certainly making good use of its quota. And you are right Aussie airlines aren't because they don't have the right equipment to service the route efficiently year-round. That will change very soon and rest assured, SYD-YVR will be in the first round of additions.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 27, 2015, 2:05 AM
Tweet from YVR

@yvrairport: YVR thrilled to welcome the inaugural @ChinaEasternNA flight from Kunming this evening! #YVR

trofirhen
Jun 27, 2015, 2:20 PM
Below are images for the runways at SFO and ATL, respectively.
My question is, how are the intersecting runways at SFO used simultaneously without danger of collision, as they intersect in the middle? Or are they long enough to be used at each end?

At ATL, they are parallel, with diagonal runways at the periphery.
This seems more logical for simultaneous takeoffs and landings.

https://jethead.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/sfo-10-9a.jpg
https://jethead.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/sfo-10-9a.jpg

http://i2.wp.com/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/DFW_diagram.gif

http://i2.wp.com/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/DFW_diagram.gif
http://i2.wp.com/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/DFW_diagram.gif
Pardon my ignorance, but this intrigues me. Thank you for your understanding.

Johnny Aussie
Jun 27, 2015, 3:14 PM
Always pleased to see local airlines expanding.

In this case, Pacific Coastal has increased its fleet and has introduced new scheduled and charter flights from its YVR base and also YYJ.

A new daily YYJ-YXS flight was added earlier this year and more recently a new weekday charter flight to Dease Lake from YVR.

Full story here ---> http://www.pacificcoastal.com/new-aircraft-new-livery-added-to-pacific-coastal-airlines-fleet/

Denscity
Jun 27, 2015, 6:06 PM
^^^ Ya only PC's Trail to Kelowna flight has been cancelled recently.

teriyaki
Jun 27, 2015, 6:07 PM
My completely amateur guess at this is that only 2 runways are used at each time at sfo. Ideally the pair that had the favourable winds would be used. Using a north south runway when winds are blowing east west wouldn't make sense...?

Gordon
Jun 27, 2015, 6:31 PM
They do sometimes use the intersecting runways simultaneously but it takes much more co-ordination between the tower & approach control normally they use the 2 longer North south runways. They also have a capacity control program that may cause regional short haul traffic to be delayed.
somey times of the day Yvr SFO flights will be held at the gate(gate hold) to allow backlogged international traffic to clear and smetimes this happens for fog as well.

Klazu
Jun 27, 2015, 6:56 PM
My only question with ME3 eating Australian airlines is why is Australian government doing nothing to protect their business? They could easily set quotas for Emirates et al and shrink their business and benefit Qantas.

Middle East countries are just transit points and not a destination for many, so setting unfair quotas shouldn't be a problem. It would be a problem when dealing with destination countries like China or the US.

trofirhen
Jun 27, 2015, 7:52 PM
My completely amateur guess at this is that only 2 runways are used at each time at sfo. Ideally the pair that had the favourable winds would be used. Using a north south runway when winds are blowing east west wouldn't make sense...?

Thanks. That's what I might have guessed, also. That being the case, they wouldn't have too much more active runway capacity than YVR.
And as impied, San Fran is a really windy place very often.

They do sometimes use the intersecting runways simultaneously but it takes much more co-ordination between the tower & approach control normally they use the 2 longer North south runways. They also have a capacity control program that may cause regional short haul traffic to be delayed.
somey times of the day Yvr SFO flights will be held at the gate(gate hold) to allow backlogged international traffic to clear and smetimes this happens for fog as well.

Thank you, also. It does seem that the "criss-cross" design has its limitations
My only question with ME3 eating Australian airlines is why is Australian government doing nothing to protect their business? They could easily set quotas for Emirates et al and shrink their business and benefit Qantas.

Middle East countries are just transit points and not a destination for many, so setting unfair quotas shouldn't be a problem. It would be a problem when dealing with destination countries like China or the US.

I don't think a large presence of the M3 in Canada would hurt us, too much, except for transfer flights to India, where there is a large, but rather low-yield market, as I understand.
I used to be annoyed that the M3 had such restricted access to Canada; I have second thoughts on that now.
Maybe it's better that they don't have a strong presence here.
Also, although nobody openly admits it, I think perhaps the presence of EK or QR is sort of a "status" thing for an airport.

Klazu
Jun 28, 2015, 6:11 AM
We went for a late dinner at Flying Beaver and happened to catch the QF 747 taking off. Such a nice sight.

Cage
Jun 28, 2015, 3:44 PM
Below are images for the runways at SFO and ATL, respectively.
My question is, how are the intersecting runways at SFO used simultaneously without danger of collision, as they intersect in the middle? Or are they long enough to be used at each end?

At ATL, they are parallel, with diagonal runways at the periphery.
This seems more logical for simultaneous takeoffs and landings.

Pardon my ignorance, but this intrigues me. Thank you for your understanding.

You are looking for closely spaced visual approach procedures. SFO also has procedures for closely spaced instrument approaches.

Second, your diagrams are for DFW but you mention ATL. DFW has their runway configuration because the airport was granted lots of land for the airport. IIRC DFW is the second newest large airport in the USA, with DEN being the newest. Other airports have significantly more space constraints due to their age.

Specifically for SFO, two aircraft arrive in staggered 500' separation on the 28s. Separately two aircraft line up and wait on the 1s (shorter runways). When the arrival aircraft have crossed runway intersection, the departure aircraft are both released for a full power takeoff. Once airborne, the lead airplane turns 20-40 degrees away from the runway headings. The process repeats itself with aircraft arriving on the 28s.

If you happen to be in the SFO area on a good weather day, it's worth the trip to stop by the SFO airport Marriott for great views of the action.

Canadian74
Jun 28, 2015, 6:16 PM
Air Canada operates the 777-200ER with 228+48 = 276 (lets assume after the "upgrades to 3-4-3 and PE) it is something like 300. That is 2,100 seats. They still have room for a second service 3 tines a week.


Air Canada doesn't have the 777-200ER. They have the 777-200LR and it has 42 J seats, not 48. Total 270 seats. After the refurb and move to 3-4-3, it will have 300 seats total. 777-300ERs will have 400 seats total (currently 349).

Large Cat
Jun 29, 2015, 7:13 PM
McArthurGlen opens July 9!!! (http://www.mcarthurglen.com/en/designer-outlet-vancouver/en/) Says so on the website.:yes:

Hourglass
Jun 30, 2015, 11:54 AM
Interesting article that provides a bit more info on Hainan Airline's proposed Tianjin-Vancouver route first mentioned by Johnny Aussie a while back: http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/hainan-airlines-plans-a-new-tianjin-base-to-secure-routes-to-new-york-and-vancouver-232131

Of note:
- YVR will be the only N American airport to be served by all 5 of China's long-haul airlines when this route launches
- YVR is the 3rd-largest N American gateway for Chinese airlines by seat capacity after JFK and LAX -- and well ahead of 4th place SFO.

Not too shabby at all!

Johnny Aussie
Jun 30, 2015, 1:06 PM
Interesting article that provides a bit more info on Hainan Airline's proposed Tianjin-Vancouver route first mentioned by Johnny Aussie a while back: http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/hainan-airlines-plans-a-new-tianjin-base-to-secure-routes-to-new-york-and-vancouver-232131

Of note:
- YVR will be the only N American airport to be served by all 5 of China's long-haul airlines when this route launches
- YVR is the 3rd-largest N American gateway for Chinese airlines by seat capacity after JFK and LAX -- and well ahead of 4th place SFO.

Not too shabby at all!

Yes it is. A very impressive position to be in and more growth to come over the winter scheds and into next year as well. What will AC's next move into China be.... YYC-PEK? YVR-CAN? YYZ-CAN? ? And will we see Xiamen into YVR in the next few years? Imagine six mainland Chinese carriers into YVR.... five is already impressive of course!

In this article they forget that China Eastern also flies to YYZ. I also wouldn't say Air China had "neglected" Toronto when they were clearly happy code-sharing with Air Canada on the daily YYZ-PEK flight.

ACT7
Jun 30, 2015, 8:56 PM
Yes it is. A very impressive position to be in and more growth to come over the winter scheds and into next year as well. What will AC's next move into China be.... YYC-PEK? YVR-CAN? YYZ-CAN? ? And will we see Xiamen into YVR in the next few years? Imagine six mainland Chinese carriers into YVR.... five is already impressive of course!

In this article they forget that China Eastern also flies to YYZ. I also wouldn't say Air China had "neglected" Toronto when they were clearly happy code-sharing with Air Canada on the daily YYZ-PEK flight.
From what I understand, Air China could not fly to YYZ because of Chinese government regulations stating that only one Chinese carrier could fly long haul from each city, in this case PEK. Hainan beat them to the punch. Unless I'm mistaken. Otherwise I'm fairly certain YYZ would already have Air China service and YUL would not have happened at all.

trofirhen
Jun 30, 2015, 9:49 PM
deleted

Johnny Aussie
Jul 1, 2015, 12:40 AM
From what I understand, Air China could not fly to YYZ because of Chinese government regulations stating that only one Chinese carrier could fly long haul from each city, in this case PEK. Hainan beat them to the punch. Unless I'm mistaken. Otherwise I'm fairly certain YYZ would already have Air China service and YUL would not have happened at all.

I don't believe Air China necessarily wanted to start its own PEK-YYZ flights as the route had been earmarked for them. However in 2010 (I think it was 2010) Hainan started the route. So I wouldn't necessarily say Hainan beat them as Air China was code sharing with AC which makes sense as both are Star hubs. However, yes, if Air China wanted to start its own flights with its own metal now, it wouldn't be able to based on the one Chinese airline per route policy subject to tweaks of course. So my point was the article was saying Air China had neglected YYZ. Not really the way I see it.

Johnny Aussie
Jul 1, 2015, 1:45 AM
HAPPY CANADA DAY!

http://yvr.ca/Libraries/Aviation_Marketing/Traffic_Update_May_2015.sflb.ashx

Another decent month with all sectors showing positive growth.

Overall up 4.4% YTD up 5.3%
Domestic up 2.1% YTD up 2.4%
Transborder up 8.2% YTD up 12.2%
Asia Pacific up 1.3% YTD up 2.5%
Europe up 9.6% YTD up 8.5%
Misc Int'l up 19.1% YTD up 7.4%
TTL INT'L up 7.0% YTD up 8.4%
Cargo up 5.3% YTD up 11.8%

Total pax count is up over 72,000 compared to May 2014.
YTD pax count is up just shy of 400,000 compared to YTD 2014.

Still on track to hit 20M+ this year.

Looks like both July and August will crack 2 million this year... Last year August was the first month ever to exceed 2 million pax in one month.

People talk that transborder is being affected by our dollar... Sure possibly fewer Canadians travelling down south... But I hear American tourism is going up up up due to the dollar... So it works both ways :)

LeftCoaster
Jul 3, 2015, 12:14 AM
Hmm, positive growth, but still more sluggish than I was anticipating this year given the all around buoyancy in the industry and the solid economic performance of BC. AsiaPac in particular has been a disappointment, don't know where all that growth went. Europe on the other hand has been a very pleasant surprise. Middling domestic numbers are no surprise, but still would like to see them up in the 3s.

Hopefully the WWC and strong tourist season ahead will give some big summer numbers.

Johnny Aussie
Jul 3, 2015, 1:50 AM
Hmm, positive growth, but still more sluggish than I was anticipating this year given the all around buoyancy in the industry and the solid economic performance of BC. AsiaPac in particular has been a disappointment, don't know where all that growth went. Europe on the other hand has been a very pleasant surprise. Middling domestic numbers are no surprise, but still would like to see them up in the 3s.

Hopefully the WWC and strong tourist season ahead will give some big summer numbers.

Relatively speaking, YVR is outperforming all major Canadian airports except YYZ. I think the weakened Alberta travel market also has a trickle effect into BC too.

Yes, Asia Pacific is a bit lower than expected. However, I think this will grow stronger through the summer and into the winter as quite a few airlines are adding capacity over the winter. Certainly seeing quite a bit of interest in YVR from the Chinese carriers.

As for Europe, this is a continuing great result. The full effect of AF is noticeable in May despite VS having pulled out. I expect this to slow down a bit over the summer as capacity is up slightly, however, I also expect planes are flying fuller.

Transborder is just incredible. Rouge certainly had a big role in these numbers. Inbound tourism thanks to the strong USD is also having a big impact.

The cruise ship season has recovered nicely from the 2010 slump. Expecting about 810,000 pax this summer compared to about 815,000 last year. Sailings are down slightly, but some of the ships are bigger.

Vancouver is also attracting quite a few big conventions including a few medical world congresses this year.

I think growth in the 3%-5% range is a healthy rate and this should continue in the short to medium term at least.

Also in the region, SEA is doing very well in pax growth terms. This is a direct result of all the new International flights added by DL plus its continuing domestic expansion needed to help fill those planes. However, they are winding back YVR and YYC over the winter. YVR falls back to 4 daily and YYC to less than twice daily so clearly not filling those planes as much as they had hoped. I think the weaker CAD is having an impact. I think YEG may have fallen off their radar due to the weakening AB travel market (hence the YYC clawback from SEA and SLC too). DL is adding YYJ-SEA next April though which I thought was quite surprising. And AS is not giving up anything to DL with their continued SEA growth too. Although, over winter AS is going back to 6 daily on the YVR-SEA route.

All in all I think YVR is still in an excellent position to continue decent solid growth.... airlines certainly seem confident with all the increases coming online.

Johnny Aussie
Jul 3, 2015, 2:27 AM
However, I think this will grow stronger through the summer and into the winter as quite a few airlines are adding capacity over the winter.

Speak of the devil... this just in on twitter:

@airlineroute: Air Canada is boosting capacity on Vancouver - Beijing route in winter season, operating 777-300ER from 28JAN16

Johnny Aussie
Jul 3, 2015, 3:06 AM
http://airlineroute.net/2015/07/03/ba-yvr-s16/

772ERs replacing 744s. First class will still be offered.

This is a very large decrease in capacity. I'd be surprised if this is left like this.

The inevitable retirement of 744s continues.

thenoflyzone
Jul 3, 2015, 2:03 PM
http://airlineroute.net/2015/07/03/ba-yvr-s16/

772ERs replacing 744s. First class will still be offered.

This is a very large decrease in capacity. I'd be surprised if this is left like this.

The inevitable retirement of 744s continues.

Could it have something to do with AF launching YVR and/or AC introducing the 458 seater B77W on YVR-LHR a few years ago?

Otherwise I'm fairly certain YYZ would already have Air China service and YUL would not have happened at all.

One has nothing to do with the other. Even if CA was already serving YYZ, now that AC and CA are joining forces with the JV, YUL was a given.

Even Hainan showed interest in YUL, so it was in CA's interest to launch YUL if it didn't want to get duped twice.

Cage
Jul 3, 2015, 2:50 PM
Could it have something to do with AF launching YVR and/or AC introducing the 458 seater B77W on YVR-LHR a few years ago?

WS launching Western Canada - LGW is the likely reason for the loss of seats.

Edit to Add:

History of Westjet expansion is they tend to push out every airline that does not have a Maple Leaf on the tail. Examples:
- Transcontinental expansion pushed out C3 at first (although admittedly this is tenuous position) and the Jetsgo. 3 months after WS transitioned from YHM to YYZ; Jetsgo was gone. Transcon expansion also caused a shift in Sunwing business plan. Sunwing was going to be third player in trascon market during the summer season.
- Atlantic Canada expansion pushed Canjet out of scheduled services.
- Transborder expansion caused AA and DL to pull out some services. AS has shrunk a little in YYC and a lot at YVR.

If history repeats, the foreign airlines will reassess their commitment to Canada and pull out if the profit margins during summer cannot sustain winter low season.

In the specific instance of BA, I can see a future where they pull out of everything that is not YVR and YYZ, with only a single daily flight out of YVR.

SFUVancouver
Jul 3, 2015, 5:05 PM
http://airlineroute.net/2015/07/03/ba-yvr-s16/

772ERs replacing 744s. First class will still be offered.

This is a very large decrease in capacity. I'd be surprised if this is left like this.

The inevitable retirement of 744s continues.

I think that this is a case of BA being a bit stuck with its fleet composition. They don't have enough 773ERs to take up the slack from 744 retirements, which is still a decrease in capacity per flight, and the exorbitant cost and capacity increase associated with A388 mean that these won't be used 1-for-1 as a 744 replacement for its former routes. These problems are far from unique to BA, but it gets tricky when an airline has a steady, profitable route like YVR-LHR, which can reliably just about fill a 744, but the route doesn't warrant a A388 and there may not be slots or sufficient demand to go with two flights of a smaller aircraft (773ER, 772ER, 772ER, A333, A358/9/0).

Cage
Jul 3, 2015, 6:33 PM
I think that this is a case of BA being a bit stuck with its fleet composition. They don't have enough 773ERs to take up the slack from 744 retirements, which is still a decrease in capacity per flight, and the exorbitant cost and capacity increase associated with A388 mean that these won't be used 1-for-1 as a 744 replacement for its former routes. These problems are far from unique to BA, but it gets tricky when an airline has a steady, profitable route like YVR-LHR, which can reliably just about fill a 744, but the route doesn't warrant a A388 and there may not be slots or sufficient demand to go with two flights of a smaller aircraft (773ER, 772ER, 772ER, A333, A358/9/0).

BA fleet composition is fine. However the impending introduction of WS onto western canada to LGw is going to push down yields on London destined market. Even WS rumoured 3x week YEG-LGW will impact YVR. Toss in the possibility at least 2 other weekly flights might originate in YYC and BA is in a spot of trouble.

BA basically has three choices, fight and depress yields (hoping AC blinks before BA), flight and drop the market, or drop the economy seats and focus on premium end of the market.

For YVR avgeeks, atleast BA has the option of smaller, airplanes. I fear that BA will pull out of YYC market.

thenoflyzone
Jul 3, 2015, 8:05 PM
WS launching Western Canada - LGW is the likely reason for the loss of seats.

Edit to Add:

History of Westjet expansion is they tend to push out every airline that does not have a Maple Leaf on the tail. Examples:
- Transcontinental expansion pushed out C3 at first (although admittedly this is tenuous position) and the Jetsgo. 3 months after WS transitioned from YHM to YYZ; Jetsgo was gone. Transcon expansion also caused a shift in Sunwing business plan. Sunwing was going to be third player in trascon market during the summer season.
- Atlantic Canada expansion pushed Canjet out of scheduled services.
- Transborder expansion caused AA and DL to pull out some services. AS has shrunk a little in YYC and a lot at YVR.

If history repeats, the foreign airlines will reassess their commitment to Canada and pull out if the profit margins during summer cannot sustain winter low season.

In the specific instance of BA, I can see a future where they pull out of everything that is not YVR and YYZ, with only a single daily flight out of YVR.

I have my doubts about this. This is BA we are talking about, not Jetsgo, C6 or another small time Canadian carrier. Why would BA cut seats on a route because of an airline that hasn't even confirmed from where it will fly to LGW. Also, why isn't BA cutting seats at YYZ, where AC just announced YYZ-LGW daily service next summer.

I honestly think AF-KL's increased presence in western Canada has something to do with it, not WS.

Also, I don't think BA will pull out of YUL. WS will more than likely not fly its 767s from there. YYC, on the other hand, who knows.

ACT7
Jul 3, 2015, 8:36 PM
Could it have something to do with AF launching YVR and/or AC introducing the 458 seater B77W on YVR-LHR a few years ago?



One has nothing to do with the other. Even if CA was already serving YYZ, now that AC and CA are joining forces with the JV, YUL was a given.

Even Hainan showed interest in YUL, so it was in CA's interest to launch YUL if it didn't want to get duped twice.
CA would not have been able to serve YUL from PEK if they were already serving YYZ. Hainan beat them to it. Do you mean AC would have started YUL-PEK? I honestly doubt that would have happened.

CareerShow
Jul 3, 2015, 11:17 PM
While BA may be decreasing their capacity I would argue it is an upgrade in product. 3 3 3 seating in economy, as well as newer business/first class service will be much nicer to fly in.

Johnny Aussie
Jul 4, 2015, 1:41 AM
While BA may be decreasing their capacity I would argue it is an upgrade in product. 3 3 3 seating in economy, as well as newer business/first class service will be much nicer to fly in.

Yes, like most 744 fleets they would be starting to get a bit tired.

I still wouldn't be surprised if the go double daily 772 (ie increase from 12 to 14 weekly). Especially with VS out of the picture.

stiffdeadman
Jul 4, 2015, 3:42 AM
BA fleet composition is fine. However the impending introduction of WS onto western canada to LGw is going to push down yields on London destined market. Even WS rumoured 3x week YEG-LGW will impact YVR. Toss in the possibility at least 2 other weekly flights might originate in YYC and BA is in a spot of trouble.

BA basically has three choices, fight and depress yields (hoping AC blinks before BA), flight and drop the market, or drop the economy seats and focus on premium end of the market.

For YVR avgeeks, atleast BA has the option of smaller, airplanes. I fear that BA will pull out of YYC market.

BA will be fine. We used to have Thomas Cook running A330's almost daily from Gatwick as well as some flights to Manchester, a few years ago, and BA still had there double daily 747's flying in no problem. They pulled out and Air Transat was supposed to pick up the slack, but never really did as they are an Eastern Canada first airline and westerners know it. All those European tourists won't touch Westjet either.

thenoflyzone
Jul 4, 2015, 6:34 AM
BA will be fine.

I think so too! At least at YVR. YYC is another matter.

Johnny Aussie
Jul 4, 2015, 11:18 AM
BA will be fine. We used to have Thomas Cook running A330's almost daily from Gatwick as well as some flights to Manchester, a few years ago, and BA still had there double daily 747's flying in no problem. They pulled out and Air Transat was supposed to pick up the slack, but never really did as they are an Eastern Canada first airline and westerners know it. All those European tourists won't touch Westjet either.

Actually Air Transat runs six weekly LGW - YVR, twice weekly MAN - YVR and once weekly GLA - YVR in the summer. Much slower in winter of course but next winter they are ramping up LGW - YVR to twice weekly in late winter.

I agree with your assessment of Westjet though. Not that Europeans won't touch it but they will have an uphill battle with brand recognition. I don't know how well they are going on the new GLA and DUB runs on the 73Hs out of Eastern Canada but perhaps that's a start.

Valley_Refugee
Jul 4, 2015, 4:18 PM
With WestJet's international push, I've thought recently that it's time for a rebranding - something that ties it to Canada. WestJet doesn't mean anything outside of Canada. Canadian Airways perhaps?

trofirhen
Jul 4, 2015, 5:40 PM
With WestJet's international push, I've thought recently that it's time for a rebranding - something that ties it to Canada. WestJet doesn't mean anything outside of Canada. Canadian Airways perhaps?
:)interesting !! That very same thought was going through my mind, too. Even WestJet Canda, with green and yellow maples, for that matter.

Cage
Jul 4, 2015, 6:54 PM
BA will be fine. We used to have Thomas Cook running A330's almost daily from Gatwick as well as some flights to Manchester, a few years ago, and BA still had there double daily 747's flying in no problem. They pulled out and Air Transat was supposed to pick up the slack, but never really did as they are an Eastern Canada first airline and westerners know it. All those European tourists won't touch Westjet either.

Thomas Cook brought British tourist to Vancouver area for their annual summer vacation using a package tours. Air Transat took Canadians on European package tour vacation. The two charter airlines never really competed with each other or with major airlines.

Thomas Cook pulled out of YVR market about the time the Canadian dollar strengthened against all currencies. The high CAD impacted profitability of packaged tours. Additionally the slump in European economy made package tours to Spain, Italy, and Greece very cheap, the package tour market followed the cheap vacations.

If Westjet vacations were able to put together package tours for European travel agents to sell to their clients, then I can European tourist market flying WS.

Bottom line, don't under estimate the game changer that is WS widebody. The introduction of WS 763 will have a much bigger impact than WS Encore. Some international airlines will stay and fight for market share, but others will exit certain Canadian markets if the losses are too high or if assets can be redeployed for better results.

casper
Jul 5, 2015, 4:09 PM
Air Transat has a significant marketing arm in the UK called Canadian Affair. I don't think WestJet is going to reach that scale over night.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Affair

Cage
Jul 5, 2015, 11:24 PM
Air Transat has a significant marketing arm in the UK called Canadian Affair. I don't think WestJet is going to reach that scale over night.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Affair

Canadian affair is a separate company that has sold charter flights to Canada on a number of airlines. Previous to Air Transat, Canadaian Affair contracted with sky service, and Canada3000 among others.

Although owned by TransAt Group, Canadian Affair is separate managed company with its own management largely kept to themselves.

I fully trust the British operators of Canadian Affair would take WestJets phone call and talk about doing business together. If for no other reason than WS and group Transat have a common enemy, Air Canada rouge. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Cage
Jul 5, 2015, 11:44 PM
With WestJet's international push, I've thought recently that it's time for a rebranding - something that ties it to Canada. WestJet doesn't mean anything outside of Canada. Canadian Airways perhaps?

I don't think Westjet should do a rebrand, it would just be a great waste of money and they would give back a lot of goodwill and brand awareness they have built up over the past 18 years at home and throughout th USA.

Also Westjet can't do a maple leaf on their Tail or elsewhere on their aircraft, save for a Canadian flag which is all ready on the back end of the airplAne. Anything else with a maple leaf and AC would have WS in court for years.

Much easier approach for WS is to proceed with their present branding and explain their value proposition (service, price, history, etc.) from a position of strength of the current Westjet brand.

Cage
Jul 6, 2015, 5:30 AM
Home town airline route rag is reporting a nice uptick in AC YVR-PEK seats:

Air Canada in the second-half of winter season is boosting capacity on Vancouver – Beijing, as the daily service being operated by Boeing 777-300ER, starting 28JAN16. The 777 aircraft will be replacing 787-8.

AC029 YVR1250 – 1600+1PEK 77W D
AC030 PEK1740 – 1205YVR 77W D

http://airlineroute.net/2015/07/06/ac-yvrpek-feb16/

trofirhen
Jul 7, 2015, 11:49 PM
Recently read that YVR got Best Airport award for the sixth year in a row. Great!! Nore more need be said, really.
However, passing through SFO in January, I was either looking for a pay phone and could find one and/or had no change. I had a long layover, and needed to phone family, and call a taxi.
Anyway, as soon as I had cleared customs, I was instantly, and warmly, directed to a "courtesy phone." Free even over area code lines in the Bay Area.
I don't recall noticing that at Vancouver, and might be worth adding to the YVR customer service repetoire.
Hey, YVR is already number one (again), the terminal is beautiful and adapted, and the customer service is the best. But let's not get smug.
There are touches YVR can add that other airports already have, as stated.

SpongeG
Jul 8, 2015, 6:26 AM
With WestJet's international push, I've thought recently that it's time for a rebranding - something that ties it to Canada. WestJet doesn't mean anything outside of Canada. Canadian Airways perhaps?

we had canadian airlines before air canada swallowed them up

http://i681.photobucket.com/albums/vv179/lululio4501/Transportations/Airplanes/Boeing%20747-400/CanadianAirlinesBoeing747-400.jpg

SpongeG
Jul 8, 2015, 6:33 AM
Recently read that YVR got Best Airport award for the sixth year in a row. Great!! Nore more need be said, really.
However, passing through SFO in January, I was either looking for a pay phone and could find one and/or had no change. I had a long layover, and needed to phone family, and call a taxi.
Anyway, as soon as I had cleared customs, I was instantly, and warmly, directed to a "courtesy phone." Free even over area code lines in the Bay Area.
I don't recall noticing that at Vancouver, and might be worth adding to the YVR customer service repetoire.
Hey, YVR is already number one (again), the terminal is beautiful and adapted, and the customer service is the best. But let's not get smug.
There are touches YVR can add that other airports already have, as stated.

i used toronto terminal 3 last week, the us departures was awful, one crappy duty free store, no newstore like hudson news to buy some pop or snacks, three overpriced restaurants, 12.99 for a basic sandwich, one starbucks, not even a tim hortons, the security area is small and bare

arriving back was not much better, the guy sent me to the wrong line in customs, i siad i have a connection in 20 minutes so the next guy said ok go here and let me bypass and pass through for non canadian passport holders, this part of the terminal was slightly better, was at least a small newstand place to buy a pop and a small snack but not many food options at all and what was "under construction" didn't look too promising

now laguardia, yikes

makes me realize just how great YVR is and why it keeps winning awards

trofirhen
Jul 8, 2015, 7:14 AM
I like the Canada Goose design on the tail of Canadian. Stays within our boundaries of National Symbols, yet gets away from the hackneyed maple leaf thing. (not that I don't love our flag).

connect2source
Jul 8, 2015, 1:09 PM
If WestJet expands much more internationally they'll run into the same identity issues as CP Air did which was a huge catalyst in their decision to go back to the Canadian Pacific moniker in 1986. Shortly after, of course, if was changed to Canadi>n following it's purchase by PWA in Alberta.

WestJet's presence in Canada far outweighs it's international one for now but I'll be curious to see what happens down the road and their brand makes little sense even in Eastern Canada

ACT7
Jul 8, 2015, 2:16 PM
makes me realize just how great YVR is and why it keeps winning awards

Overall I like YVR, but one THE stupidest things about the airport - and it seems to be the only airport on earth that does this - is that if you are eligible to go through the Fast Track security line-up because of your airline status, and you have a travel companion with you, they are not allowed to go through with you unless you each get some silly sticker on your boarding pass by the airline that just says 'YVR'. Somehow, that validates the fact that someone who's traveling with you is now okay to go through the fast track lane. Dumbest system I've ever seen. If it's meant to make the process more efficient, it doesn't - you have to go back to the airline counter and wait in line just to get a sticker.

The bigger issue for me was the smug-ass response from the airport authority. Their answer as to why they handle things this way was "why not - we're a top 5 airport". Not really sure what the hell that means exactly because if they're referring to size, it's barely top 30 in NA, let alone the world, so I assume they're referring to their "quality" ranking. Still, a ridiculous policy with a more ridiculous response.

Cage
Jul 8, 2015, 2:34 PM
- the only year-round, non-stop flights between Canada and the capital city of Queensland,
- a major business hub and gateway to the Great Barrier Reef and Australia's Gold Coast,
- Complements Air Canada's year-round, daily non-stop flights to Sydney, Australia.
VANCOUVER, July 8, 2015 /CNW/ - Air Canada today announced the addition of new non-stop flights from Vancouver to Brisbane, Australia. Flights to Brisbane will initially operate three times weekly using Boeing 787-8 Dreamliners beginning June 17, 2016, with the intention to increase to daily service, subject to obtaining the necessary government approvals.

"Air Canada continues to strategically expand its international network with the addition of our second Australian destination - Brisbane, capital of Queensland and the third most populous city in Australia. The new route increases our presence in the Asia-Pacific market at a time when trade and travel in the region and between North America is growing, with a further boost expected from the Trans-Pacific Partnership now under negotiation. Already, Air Canada commits $2 billion worth of aircraft to the Pacific market each day and Brisbane is the third new Pacific route we have announced in the past year, after Toronto-Tokyo Haneda and Vancouver-Osaka," said Calin Rovinescu, Air Canada President and CEO, who is participating today in the 2015 Australia-Canada Economic Leadership Forum in Vancouver.

"We will be offering the only non-stop, year-round flights from Canada to Brisbane, a financial hub as well as a tourism gateway to Australia's Gold Coast and the Great Barrier Reef, using our Boeing 787 Dreamliners. The operating economics of the Dreamliner together with the efforts of the Vancouver Airport Authority who have maintained airport operating costs at levels among the lowest in Canada, have enabled us to grow our Vancouver hub," concluded Mr. Rovinescu.

Air Canada looks forward to working with the Queensland Government, tourism partners from both countries and Brisbane Airport to promote the new route.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1567787/air-canada-adds-brisbane-to-its-expanding-international-network

Gordon
Jul 8, 2015, 2:39 PM
Air Canada's YVR Brisbane service starts next June year roune Non Stop.

Does nay one have any idea what the next major construction project will be?

When will all the A\B connector gates be in use? Gates B 13,27&28 are never used.

Cage
Jul 8, 2015, 3:51 PM
we had canadian airlines before air canada swallowed them up

http://i681.photobucket.com/albums/vv179/lululio4501/Transportations/Airplanes/Boeing%20747-400/CanadianAirlinesBoeing747-400.jpg

Air Canada owns the intellectual property rights to all of PWA Corp past airlines including:
- Canadian Airlines
- PWA and Pacific Western Airlines
- Canadian Pacific and CP Air
- Wardair
- Canadian Regional

Cage
Jul 8, 2015, 4:12 PM
Does nay one have any idea what the next major construction project will be?


International concourse hammerhead should be the next major terminal project. The hammerhead will add another 6-10 gates can complete the international terminal building.

Also, there is supposed to be a north south taxiway that will go over top Grant McConachie Way, Sky Train, and Miller Road. This taxway will be perpendicular to and beside the two AC hangars (the original AC hangar on the southside and the former CP hangar on the north side.

Cage
Jul 8, 2015, 4:14 PM
YVR Airport's turn at the podium

Richmond, BC (July 8, 2015): Today, Air Canada announced non-stop service between Brisbane International Airport (BNE) and Vancouver International Airport (YVR). Set to begin flying three-times weekly starting June 17, 2016, the direct service is the only year-round, non-stop flight between Canada and Brisbane—a major business hub and a gateway to Australia’s renowned tourism region.

“Air Canada is our long-time anchor partner and we value their commitment to developing a West Coast hub at YVR,” said Craig Richmond, President & CEO, Vancouver Airport Authority. “This service is another milestone in our vision of becoming a world-class hub airport and further strengthens the already excellent relationship and mutual admiration between Canada and Australia."

Air Canada is a key carrier between Australia and Vancouver, currently operating daily service to Sydney from YVR using Boeing 777 aircraft. This new non-stop service will use the game changing Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft to connect directly to Brisbane. As Australia’s third most-populous city, Brisbane is the capital city of Queensland providing direct access to Australia’s Gold Coast and famed Great Barrier Reef.

“YVR welcomes this new service and thousands of excited travellers with open arms. It’s a perfect route – Australians love to visit our ski hills and cities while Brisbane and the Great Barrier Reef are a constant draw for Canadians,” said Craig Richmond, Vancouver Airport Authority.

Air Canada’s new service will generate approximately $9 million in Gross Domestic Product and $5.3 million in wages to the BC economy and add an additional 134 jobs at YVR, BC’s hotels, tourism attractions and businesses. The service will further establish Vancouver and BC as a key tourism location for visitors from Australia, who increased by 6.3 per cent in 2014. The new Brisbane service will give BC businesses and organizations more options to reach customers in Australia

http://www.yvr.ca/en/flight-information/latest-information/15-07-08/YVR_IS_THE_FIRST_CANADIAN_AIRPORT_WITH_DIRECT_SERVICE_TO_BRISBANE_AUSTRALIA-776309358.aspx

s211
Jul 8, 2015, 5:15 PM
Also, there is supposed to be a north south taxiway that will go over top Grant McConachie Way, Sky Train, and Miller Road. This taxway will be perpendicular to and beside the two AC hangars (the original AC hangar on the southside and the former CP hangar on the north side.

I'd be interested to how that will be accomplished, given we're at sea level and don't really have options to tunnel for vehicles withoug significant costs.

Is it possible that planes would have to ascend a long gradual ramp up and over the roads?

Denscity
Jul 8, 2015, 6:17 PM
New flight announcement to Australia where's Johnny??

trofirhen
Jul 8, 2015, 6:19 PM
Knowing now that Brisbane's on the horizon for sure, is great!! And with 787s, yet:)
Claude Richmond, as part of his response, declared wanting to make Vancouver a Pacific hub. This seems to be consolidating piece by piece, with the absence, conspicuous or not, of Tahiti.

OK, yes, preferably more profitable CDG - LAX - PPT because the great circle route goes directly through LAX. (and admittedly a larger market)... but wait !! Check the air mikes calculator below.

Via CDG- YVR - PPT is only 48 (yes 48) miles longer. If you don't believe me, look. Air Tahiti Nui might think about a YVR connection.

http://www.airmilescalculator.com/distance3/cdg-to-lax-ppt/
via LAX

http://www.airmilescalculator.com/distance3/cdg-to-yvr-ppt/
via YVR
Another possible destination in our Oceania roster as we inexorably become a hub, not only for Asia, but for The South Pacific as well.

moosejaw
Jul 8, 2015, 6:35 PM
I'd be interested to how that will be accomplished, given we're at sea level and don't really have options to tunnel for vehicles withoug significant costs.

Is it possible that planes would have to ascend a long gradual ramp up and over the roads?

We did this recently in Fort Lauderdale (FLL) where instead of tunneling we built a runway extension with an adjoining taxiway where it is ramped up at one end to bridge over US1 (Federal Highway). The eastern end of the runway is elevated by 52 feet using 11 million tons of dirt and has a slope of 1.3 degrees.

Offtopic but unfortunately when building this runway extension, the designers erred as it eliminated a key southbound ramp to Hollywood FL. So now drivers wanting to go southbound now have to take a side road to get there. A taxi is now several dollars more because of this mistake

Klazu
Jul 8, 2015, 6:57 PM
trofirhen, did you just re-post those calculations for the third time? I think we have seen those...

Great news about Brisbane being confirmed, but too bad that it is still a year away.

trofirhen
Jul 8, 2015, 7:00 PM
trofirhen, did you just re-post those calculations for the third time? I think we have seen those...

Great news about Brisbane being confirmed, but too bad that it is still a year away.

sorry. I thought my other calculations were Asia-South America,comparing via YYZ or YVR.

But hey, yeah, our Oceania presence is starting to move again (and 2016 will arrive before we know it; life passes so fast !!!)

Johnny Aussie
Jul 8, 2015, 7:32 PM
New flight announcement to Australia where's Johnny??

Jetlag Johnny slept through this one!! The biggest announcment since Hainan... How many weeks ago was that? YVR continues on a pretty good roll of new flights/announcements. This has been an impressive last few years and continuing into the future.

Wow.. Ok maybe not a huge surprise with all the speculation... certainly a lot more speculation was generated downunder but great news nonetheless.

YVR's Asia Pacific focus just seems to be ticking along one step at a time. I am also noticing new longhaul routes seem to be getting announced with longer and longer lead times. This is almost one year in advance.

And with Australia, once QF gets its act together with new long range aircraft QF will be on board with daily year round YVR-SYD too.

So now perhaps the next step for YVR is get a direct MEL flight too. Bilateral changes required obviously because I highly doubt QF would touch it... unless, again, they restructure their longhaul fleet with dreamliners or similar.

deasine
Jul 8, 2015, 8:42 PM
I wonder if/what was the discount Air Canada received for this flight flying into Brisbane given the limited controls on charges. I'm sure the route was only confirmed until Air Canada felt it was the best price they could receive.

Cage
Jul 8, 2015, 10:06 PM
I wonder if/what was the discount Air Canada received for this flight flying into Brisbane given the limited controls on charges. I'm sure the route was only confirmed until Air Canada felt it was the best price they could receive.

Discounts are probably the usual suspects.
- Airport and tourist boards will give free advertising.
- Local radio, print, and TV promotion advertising in both YVR and BNE, paid by BNE and Australian tourist boards.
- Favourable press quotes from both sides of the pond.
- YVR end will likely reciprocate with advertising with airport picking up the tab.

The biggest impact AC could get is having BNE politicians advocate for removal of the seat capacity cap that exists between Canada and Australia. Might not get full openskies, but a lifting of the seat cap would help AC quite a bit.

Cage
Jul 8, 2015, 10:34 PM
New flight announcement to Australia where's Johnny??

At the time of the announcement it was midnight Sydney and 11:30pm in Melbourne.

Jetlag Johnny slept through this one!! The biggest announcement since Hainan... How many weeks ago was that? YVR continues on a pretty good roll of new flights/announcements. This has been an impressive last few years and continuing into the future.

Wow.. Ok maybe not a huge surprise with all the speculation... certainly a lot more speculation was generated downunder but great news nonetheless.

YVR's Asia Pacific focus just seems to be ticking along one step at a time. I am also noticing new longhaul routes seem to be getting announced with longer and longer lead times all the time. This is almost one year in advance.

And with Australia, once QF gets its act together with new long range aircraft QF will be on board with daily year round YVR-SYD too.

So now perhaps the next step for YVR is get a direct MEL flight too. Bilateral changes required obviously because I highly doubt QF would touch it... unless, again, they restructure their longhaul fleet with dreamliners or similar.

No worries mate. I was just happy to have caught a break and posted during the Australian sleep time.

I think it will be at least 4-6 years before QF gets their hands on dreamliner or 350 equipment to operate SYD-YVR.

If only QF had done it right and purchased the 77W, or realizes their mistake and picks up a few 77Ws in the short term.

Klazu
Jul 8, 2015, 10:46 PM
Couldn't Qantas just lease appropiate planes to get a piece of the pie? There are lots of companies leasing even long-haul planes to various airlines.

Johnny Aussie
Jul 8, 2015, 11:27 PM
At the time of the announcement it was midnight Sydney and 11:30pm in Melbourne.

Ha ha! We had a recent referendum and moved our time zone 15 mins... so it was 11:45pm. I voted yes so our ski hills get more snow now.

No worries mate. I was just happy to have caught a break and posted during the Australian sleep time.

I think it will be at least 4-6 years before QF gets their hands on dreamliner or 350 equipment to operate SYD-YVR.

If only QF had done it right and purchased the 77W, or realizes their mistake and picks up a few 77Ws in the short term.

Yeah, despite all the rah rah fan boys pro and anti QF, Qantas really did miss the boat on this. Mis-read the markets. A380s too big and nothing really adequate to cover the smaller markets except for the more regional medium haul routes to Asia. VA only has 773s but too few to make a dent and again, too large for most routes. VA long-haul international appears to be struggling too. Bit by bit others are just chipping away slowly.

whatnext
Jul 8, 2015, 11:46 PM
I'm a bit surprised they are starting the flight in June. Wouldn't that be the slowest time of year for Canada-Australia traffic?

SFUVancouver
Jul 8, 2015, 11:52 PM
That's great news for the YVR-BNE Air Canada route!

Very excited to see the Dreamliner start living up to its promise of inducing new route connectivity.

Cage
Jul 9, 2015, 12:50 AM
Couldn't Qantas just lease appropiate planes to get a piece of the pie? There are lots of companies leasing even long-haul planes to various airlines.

Aircraft that can do the mission include: newer 777, 787, 340-300/500/600, 350, 380. The 380 is too big an airplane for the mission. There is no availability of 787 and newer 777 and 350. The 340 is not economical, but is available.

VancouverOfTheFuture
Jul 9, 2015, 1:32 AM
I'd be interested to how that will be accomplished, given we're at sea level and don't really have options to tunnel for vehicles withoug significant costs.

Is it possible that planes would have to ascend a long gradual ramp up and over the roads?

in response to the North-South Taxiway
http://i.imgur.com/hMNjwg2.jpg
source: YVR

Klazu
Jul 9, 2015, 4:02 AM
Aircraft that can do the mission include: newer 777, 787, 340-300/500/600, 350, 380. The 380 is too big an airplane for the mission. There is no availability of 787 and newer 777 and 350. The 340 is not economical, but is available.

AerCap seems to have a nice fleet of delivered Dreamliners for lease:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AerCap
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_787_orders_and_deliveries

Quite a airplane portfolio for that matter!

Klazu
Jul 9, 2015, 4:57 AM
Not the greatest source for this, but I haven't noticed it being mentioned that Emirates is bumping Seattle to twice daily. Quite a nod for Seattle.

http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/07/emirates-increases-canadian-west-coast-service-to-dubai/

urbancanadian
Jul 9, 2015, 5:36 AM
Not the greatest source for this, but I haven't noticed it being mentioned that Emirates is bumping Seattle to twice daily. Quite a nod for Seattle.

http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/07/emirates-increases-canadian-west-coast-service-to-dubai/

I've actually been hearing radio ads from Emirates lately, advertising the route. They mentioned twice-daily flights to Dubai "and beyond". Thought it was interesting.

Hourglass
Jul 9, 2015, 8:12 AM
in response to the North-South Taxiway
http://i.imgur.com/hMNjwg2.jpg
source: YVR

Is this still being planned? Wasn't sure as things have been quiet.

This taxiway is really needed, particularly if they build the new terminal to the east of the current ITB. International flights currently waste a lot of time and fuel taxiing around the domestic terminal to get to the south runway, particularly if they're taking off to the west.

trofirhen
Jul 9, 2015, 9:45 AM
Not the greatest source for this, but I haven't noticed it being mentioned that Emirates is bumping Seattle to twice daily. Quite a nod for Seattle.

http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/07/emirates-increases-canadian-west-coast-service-to-dubai/
What if any might be the long-term projected outcomes of this, regarding competition between YVR and SEA-TAC for growth in pax# and destinations?

Valley_Refugee
Jul 9, 2015, 1:12 PM
Air Canada owns the intellectual property rights to all of PWA Corp past airlines including:
- Canadian Airlines
- PWA and Pacific Western Airlines
- Canadian Pacific and CP Air
- Wardair
- Canadian Regional

Yes, yes, I'm well aware we had Canadian Airlines and that Air Canada owns the IP. I mused about Canadian Airways or perhaps a different variant. I'm sure AC would still challenge it in any event.

vanlaw
Jul 9, 2015, 3:07 PM
Yes, like most 744 fleets they would be starting to get a bit tired.

I still wouldn't be surprised if the go double daily 772 (ie increase from 12 to 14 weekly). Especially with VS out of the picture.

Yes, the economy product on the BA 744 is pretty tired. The infotainment system is fairly outdated. Although I wouldn't say the product is any worse than the A340 LH flies on the YVR-FRA route, which is what I am usually on to Europe (I haven't been on the LH 747). The business class on the BA 744 looks not too bad though.

I was on the BA flight home last night. It is too bad the 744 is being phased out, although totally understandable. It is such a smooth ride. Take off is super smooth, and I love seeing those huge wings swaying so gracefully. It's definitely like a ride a huge Cadillac.

A couple of pics from LHR and on landing at YVR (love that wing!) The first pic from LHR has the ET 787 and the SQ A380 in it. Also pics of the BA and QF A380's. What airline is the plane beside the SQ A380?

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb382/eastvan1/LHR/20150708_173615_zpseuf1wwcl.jpg

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb382/eastvan1/LHR/20150708_162512_zpsvjezzibc.jpg

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb382/eastvan1/LHR/20150708_162645_zpswoonaunj.jpg

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb382/eastvan1/LHR/20150708_183400_zpsdbiu7m3b.jpg

Klazu
Jul 9, 2015, 3:13 PM
What airline is the plane beside the SQ A380?

South African Airways

s211
Jul 9, 2015, 3:14 PM
in response to the North-South Taxiway
http://i.imgur.com/hMNjwg2.jpg
source: YVR

Interesting. If I read correctly, this plan does not require lowering the roads.

Cage
Jul 9, 2015, 3:32 PM
AerCap seems to have a nice fleet of delivered Dreamliners for lease:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AerCap
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_787_orders_and_deliveries

Quite a airplane portfolio for that matter!

The aercap 787s are all committed to operators such as Norwegian, Ethiopian, Thai, etc.

Also Aer Cap has a great business in buying early delivery slots when the airframe is announced and then selling them for a profit prior to aircraft build. QF could access this market but it's getting quite expensive on the open market.

AC got a great deal on their 787s because they had to weather the production delays and significant performance degradation from the promised numbers in the marketing materials. I know AC is quite happy with getting 7 77W well below cost as compensation, plus Ac got a great deal on the 787 as launch customer. QF will not get either of these deals, so any attempt to either buy 787 or 77w will be at materially higher capital costs.

vanlaw
Jul 9, 2015, 3:45 PM
South African Airways

Ah...of course!

Johnny Aussie
Jul 9, 2015, 9:29 PM
Always a good read to see how the other side sees it (in this case my side).

And also reading how this new route is huge news for BNE, Queensland and Australia.

http://www.bne.com.au/news/new-international-airline-heralds-fresh-era-qld-and-canada

I used to fly AC a lot but now not very often so the chances of me using this new flight is remote. But at least yet another Star Alliance option from MEL to YVR with a bit of Virgin Australia for the domestic portion. MEL-SYD-YVR is actually 12 miles shorter than MEL-BNE-YVR.... Both require a terminal change though... Why I now prefer NZ via AKL and I find NZ service better than AC now.

Klazu
Jul 9, 2015, 9:48 PM
They seem to be just as happy with the connection on Brisbane end. Great news and they expect 12 000 new Canadian travelers to Australia thanks to this connection on top of the current annual figure of 140 000. That's nice.

Connections wise, will Brisbane provide a better connection for Canadians traveling to Perth and Adelaide than Sydney?

Cage
Jul 9, 2015, 10:29 PM
Connections wise, will Brisbane provide a better connection for Canadians traveling to Perth and Adelaide than Sydney?

Unfortunately, no the connection process is not easier in BNE compared to SYD.

The problem with Australian connections is the propensity to have separate International and Domestic terminals. In SYD this adds at least 20-30 minutes and a lot of walking bus and walking to the connection.

BNE connections will be less cumbersome simply because the terminals are smaller, but all pax will still have to walk -> Bus -> walk.

Of major Australian airports (SYD, MEL, ADL, PER, BNE, CNS) only MEL and ADL have connected terminals.

hollywoodnorth
Jul 9, 2015, 10:33 PM
Big backups on routes to YVR due to outlet mall grand opening

http://www.news1130.com/2015/07/09/traffic-backups-on-grant-mcconachie-way-to-yvr-due-to-outlet-mall-grand-opening/



oh ya thats good .....

Klazu
Jul 10, 2015, 12:50 AM
Seems that all of Richmond is there. And nobody took the Skytrain.

casper
Jul 10, 2015, 1:31 AM
Unfortunately, no the connection process is not easier in BNE compared to SYD.

The problem with Australian connections is the propensity to have separate International and Domestic terminals. In SYD this adds at least 20-30 minutes and a lot of walking bus and walking to the connection.

BNE connections will be less cumbersome simply because the terminals are smaller, but all pax will still have to walk -> Bus -> walk.

Of major Australian airports (SYD, MEL, ADL, PER, BNE, CNS) only MEL and ADL have connected terminals.

Not certain if it is still the case. I have done United MEL to SYD connecting onto United back to LAX. The MEL to SYD flight is a short hop for a 747, you also clear Australian exit passport control in MEL. I believe United only has rights to carry connecting passengers on the flight.

Johnny Aussie
Jul 10, 2015, 2:13 AM
Not certain if it is still the case. I have done United MEL to SYD connecting onto United back to LAX. The MEL to SYD flight is a short hop for a 747, you also clear Australian exit passport control in MEL. I believe United only has rights to carry connecting passengers on the flight.

MEL-LAX is now daily nonstop on UA's brand new 787-900.... I will be on one in just a matter of weeks :)

When the flight went via SYD, even though you didn't have to go through immigration or customs, you still had to disembark in SYD and go through security again. The LAX and SFO flights met up in SYD and the MEL pax amalgamated so only one 744 went through to MEL. The other 744 sat on the ground in SYD and waited for the one from MEL to come back.

The stop in SYD although not a big deal, it is nice to bypass that now.

casper
Jul 10, 2015, 5:22 AM
What if any might be the long-term projected outcomes of this, regarding competition between YVR and SEA-TAC for growth in pax# and destinations?

Not certain if it is true. I have been told one of the key drivers for the flight is cargo. There is a certain airline in Dubai that has a very large fleet of Boeing aircraft and many of the spares need to travel by air cargo out of Seattle. Doing two 777 instead of one A380 provides more cargo capacity.

About two months ago I arrived in Seattle from Paris at the same time as the Dubai flight arrived. What a poor airport experience. There were also some wide body flights from Asia coming in at the same time. No room at immigration, we were held in the upper walkway coming off the jet bridges for a good 30 minutes before we could even get into the queue for immigration. International baggage handling was also over crowded. To get on to the connecting Alaska gates to Victoria (and Vancouver) you need to take two separate people movers. Vancouver provides for a much better experience.

Waders
Jul 10, 2015, 5:47 AM
Seems that all of Richmond is there. And nobody took the Skytrain.
Sign :(
The traffic jam that caused flight delays.
http://bc.ctvnews.ca/polopoly_fs/1.2462157.1436478415!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_960/image.jpg
Source: CTV News (http://bc.ctvnews.ca/flights-delayed-after-outlet-mall-shoppers-jam-traffic-near-yvr-1.2462153)