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WarrenC12
Jan 14, 2016, 12:09 AM
I noticed a new gravel lot near Templeton Station. Is that for YVR or the outlet mall?

trofirhen
Jan 14, 2016, 12:55 AM
The 319 connects well to Asia bank. The 763 uses up surplus aircraft downtime.

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that AC is actively trying to defend Yvr tooth and nail against WS. AC might even be trying to make YVR into a proper hub, dare I say even a mini global hub.

This is interesting because it's an irony of history. When Canadian (formerly CP) was around, AC was a Crown Corporation up to 1988, and YYZ and YUL were mandated "the prime cuts," with Canadian (CP) restricted, especially in transborder flights.
Now that it's privatized, even with YYZ (naturally) its megahub, the kid to beat is Westjet, especially domestically though it seems WJ is making some pretty daring overseas moves.
And the way WJ is increasing its transborder traffic, mainly out of YYC but also YVR, AC knows
(finally) that to keep profits up, the have to beef up YVR in a serious way.

2: When you say "mini global hub," on what par might that put YVR with? In which airport group (in terms of routes, if not pax)? Thanks. :)

Johnny Aussie
Jan 14, 2016, 8:55 PM
Somebody wanted YVR news...

They put this on their blog today...

Summary of 2016 new services so far (note all this to happen in the first 6 months only!):

http://www.yvr.ca/en/blog/posts/New_Routes_and_Services_at_YVR_in_2016.aspx

Plus on top of all that on the international front:

AC upgauge PVG to 77W
AC rouge adding one more weekly to KIX to 6 weekly
TS adding an additional weekly flight to LGW to daily
CZ upgauge CAN to 77W
NH upgauge HND to 789
QF to SYD returning for a longer period

And now we wait patiently to see what happens with:

Hainan Airlines (Tianjin)
Xiamen Airlines (Xiamen)
Tianjin Airlines (Chongqing, Tianjin)
Beijing Capital Airlines (Hangzhou, Qingdao)

None? One? Two? Three? All?

✈️✈️✈️✈️

craneSpotter
Jan 14, 2016, 9:59 PM
Somebody wanted YVR news...

They put this on their blog today...

Summary of 2016 new services so far (note all this to happen in the first 6 months only!):

http://www.yvr.ca/en/blog/posts/New_Routes_and_Services_at_YVR_in_2016.aspx

Plus on top of all that on the international front:

AC upgauge PVG to 77W
AC rouge adding one more weekly to KIX to 6 weekly
TS adding an additional weekly flight to LGW to daily
CZ upgauge CAN to 77W
NH upgauge HND to 789
QF to SYD returning for a longer period

And now we wait patiently to see what happens with:

Hainan Airlines (Tianjin)
Xiamen Airlines (Xiamen)
Tianjin Airlines (Chongqing, Tianjin)
Beijing Capital Airlines (Hangzhou, Qingdao)

None? One? Two? Three? All?

✈️✈️✈️✈️

Nice...maybe top 21 million PAX for 2016!

Barring any global recession ....of course ;)

phesto
Jan 14, 2016, 10:01 PM
Should we expect any near-term negative impact on transborder traffic/routes due to the CDN dollar?

Johnny Aussie
Jan 14, 2016, 10:14 PM
Should we expect any near-term negative impact on transborder traffic/routes due to the CDN dollar?

Interestingly enough, those cities in Canada which tend to attract more inbound "tourists" etc are actually showing strong transborder growth. YYZ and YVR predominantly.

The dollar has been quite low for some time already. I would assume outbound is being affected, but just look at those YVR transborder numbers! Also, hotel and visitor stats in Vancouver and BC do indicate a pretty big increase in US visitors.

Will that continue though???? :shrug:

Hot Rod
Jan 15, 2016, 9:47 AM
YES, We love Vancouver. :)

Johnny Aussie
Jan 15, 2016, 11:07 PM
Yes we do!

And my anecdotal observation of late.

My PEK-YVR and YVR-PEK flights on the CA 77Ws were absolutely jam packed. The PEK-YVR was 100% full in J and 2 empty seats in Y. But the YVR-PEK flight was 100% full J and Y - not one empty seat. Not sure about F but I'm pretty sure both directions were not close to full (only 8 seats anyway). For reference my MEL-PEK and PEK-MEL were not full. MEL-PEK was probably 95% but the PEK-MEL flight this week was probably only about 80% and J cabin was empty. They moved the one passenger in the mini rear cabin to the front cabin and the crew used the rear cabin as crew rest. Never seen that before. Such a treat to have arrived in MEL being the only plane in and the bags were very quick to be dispensed. For the first time in a very long time (at least that I can remember) we were the first pax out of the customs hall. Arriving in YVR we timed it perfectly between other arriving flights so no wait at all at immigration. Bags were a bit slower though.

Anyway, it was peak travel to and from YVR but nice to see Air China doing well. Also, I am guessing about 50% (or more) of the flight was connecting to/from India - most likely DEL.

Other than the horrific smog in Beijing on the way over.. we were there during a red alert... we didn't even leave the hotel. The air pollution index was over 400 where we were and in some areas over 600. Hazardous was the warning! On the way back we were fortunate enough the air quality was "Moderate" and we did venture out into the city. Very very sad though for the people subjected to this over there. Talked to an employee in the lounge at our hotel and he said they are just getting accustomed to it. They should not have to get accustomed to it... this really is a huge wake up call for me and really making me think what the long term effects this will have and what we are doing to our planet.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 16, 2016, 1:31 AM
Looks like they are, in fact, adding a fifth weekly flight on the seasonal FRA-YVR route after all.

Their original pre-summer timetable showed five weekly flights but only to load four weekly. The same as last summer.

Anyway, a fifth weekly flight has been added on Thursdays for July and August only, a total of nine weeks showing the additional flights.
No flights on Tuesdays and Fridays during the peak summer months.

YVR-Europe is going to be fascinating to watch this summer... With 84 flights per week (the equivalent of 12 daily flights). This is up from 70 flights pw last year.

Gordon
Jan 16, 2016, 11:50 PM
Is there any construction being done on pier A at this point?

Johnny Aussie
Jan 17, 2016, 4:52 AM
Looks like National Airlines has dropped plans to serve YVR altogether.

Originally they were supposed to start flights to SFB (Orlando Sanford) mid January (pretty much now). Then they delayed the launch to May 2016.

Anyway as of today, YVR is not displayed or mentioned anywhere in their website. Not listed as a destination in their schedules / booking section. YVR and LAS have also been removed off their route map.

Oh well.... too many seats to a further away airport to the main Orlando attractions I suppose. This should help Westjet making their new YVR-MCO route successful.

trofirhen
Jan 17, 2016, 2:03 PM
Looks like National Airlines has dropped plans to serve YVR altogether........

Oh well.... too many seats to a further away airport to the main Orlando attractions I suppose. This should help Westjet making their new YVR-MCO route successful.
Will Westjet still be making only ONE flight per week YVR-MCO? I would have thought this would have been a more lucrative route, thus with greater frequencies.

sacrifice333
Jan 17, 2016, 10:12 PM
Will Westjet still be making only ONE flight per week YVR-MCO? I would have thought this would have been a more lucrative route, thus with greater frequencies.

Pretty sure they already announced the addition of a second, weekly flight.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 18, 2016, 4:52 AM
Pretty sure they already announced the addition of a second, weekly flight.

Yeah they did. Twice a week was announced not long after National announced their flights.

For all your Westjet schedule queries....

https://bookings.westjet.com/meridia?posid=WSLI&page=mainMenuMessage_reservation&action=requestSchedule&language=en

Klazu
Jan 19, 2016, 12:43 AM
Newleaf ceasing all sales immediately.

In a week and a half, hundreds of thousands of Canadians have come to the NewLeaf Travel Company website looking to find an easy, and affordable option for Canadian domestic and international air travel services. Like millions of travellers in countries across the world, the citizens of Canada are demanding access to affordable fares.

But, recent questions about licensing and regulation for Indirect Air Service Providers, like NewLeaf, have caused confusion and ambiguity in the market, which amplifies the need for a clear articulation of the regulations from the Canadian government.

The CTA is currently conducting this review, but during this period Newleaf decided that in order to confidently protect the interests of our customers against any potential changes that could affect their travel plans, we have temporarily postponed sales of airline tickets that were scheduled to begin on Feb. 12, 2016. All customers will receive an automatic full refund of all credit card transactions made to date within 72 hours.

We will be back!

We want to bring fair fares to Canada, and over the past two weeks it has been clear that thousands of Canadians are supporting our efforts and cheering us on!

Rest assured that NewLeaf will be working hard to continue to spark this revolution in Canada.

See the full news release here. (http://action.flynewleaf.ca/NewLeaf_-_Jan._18_Media_Release_FINAL2.pdf)

CareerShow
Jan 20, 2016, 2:34 AM
This may be the worst time in the last 7 years at least to start up a new airline. The weak economy and Canadian dollar cannot be helping anyone.

dharper
Jan 20, 2016, 5:08 AM
The weak economy and Canadian dollar cannot be helping anyone.
According to Global News, it is great for tourism and the local movie industry.:slob:

CareerShow
Jan 20, 2016, 8:01 AM
According to Global News, it is great for tourism and the local movie industry.:slob:
Oh yes, i was refferring to Canadian airlines tho, who charge passengers in Canadian dollars, but have many expenses in USD.

LeftCoaster
Jan 20, 2016, 11:05 PM
So I flew into Vancouver last week and was thinking a lot about what makes a great hub. As I traveled past 3 different 747s a few 777s and 787s, all different tails, I realized Vancouver has done the more difficult part of becoming a major hub first, attract long haul routes.

YVR does a lot of things well, great service, nice terminal, good transfer system, but what it severely lacks is a north american network to make it a true hub. If one wants to Fly from Beijing to any secondary city in the US, LAX, SFO, SEA etc... are going to be preferable for one huge reason, direct domestic flights. YYZ has this in spades as well, as they fly to most secondary US cities. YVR has more or less none of this. We connect well to most US hubs but as far as flying to somewhere like Pittsburgh, Nashville or Austin? Forget about it.

I know YVR is chasing Asia to Latin America PAX, but to truly take advantage of its impressive roster of Asian flights (and it truly is impressive) we need more of the bread and butter type flights within North America. The type of flights that dont make headlines, impress no one, but make YVR a more accessible useful gateway. Most of the cities we link to already have direct flights to Asia, so what are we offering them?

With that in mind I put together a look at transborder flights, similar to the one I did for widebody international. It's a first crack so I'm sure there are some errors here and there, but it's pretty well researched.

http://i.imgur.com/U6YFJLT.png?1
http://i.imgur.com/U6YFJLT.png

So as you can see we are well served to hubs, and by all three alliances (delta was a pleasant surprise), but most of the US cities we link to are already well served to Asia, with a few notable exceptions. Hopefully Air Canada can fulfill the smaller portion of it's Asia hub strategy at YVR and connect us to some cities with decent population but limited trans continental options.

trofirhen
Jan 21, 2016, 12:30 AM
Could the reason for the lack of transcontinental options from YVR be:
1) second-tier US cities are concentrated in the East (Pittsburgh, Charlotte, Nashville, Memphis, Cleveland, and such, and are therefore closer to YYZ?
2) In the Western States, there are fewer second-tier cities and a lower population density (?)
Or .... could it be that YYZ wants to keep most of the action for itself ... OR ... that there is also enough O/D traffic from many US cities to YYZ that does not exist for YVR, thereby justifying flights to YYZ?
*Or, is Air Canada just trying to keep YVR's wings clipped, ever so subtly, (which leads back to YYZ hegemony)?

SFUVancouver
Jan 21, 2016, 12:57 AM
Could the reason for the lack of transcontinental options from YVR be:
1) second-tier US cities are concentrated in the East (Pittsburgh, Charlotte, Nashville, Memphis, Cleveland, and such, and are therefore closer to YYZ?
2) In the Western States, there are fewer second-tier cities and a lower population density (?)
Or .... could it be that YYZ wants to keep most of the action for itself ... OR ... that there is also enough O/D traffic from many US cities to YYZ that does not exist for YVR, thereby justifying flights to YYZ?
*Or, is Air Canada just trying to keep YVR's wings clipped, ever so subtly, (which leads back to YYZ hegemony)?

I think that it is the former, not the latter. Per LeftCoaster's awesome chart [below], 210 weekly Air Canada flights from YVR to 11 US cities is pretty significant. Recognizing the organizational structure of the US airline system, I would love more direct flights (particularly early morning departures) from YVR to key US hub cities, like Denver, Chicago, Charlotte, and Atlanta, plus twice daily direct flights to second tier US cities.


http://i.imgur.com/U6YFJLT.png?1
http://i.imgur.com/U6YFJLT.png


That's a great chart, LeftCoaster. Thank you.

One thought, I think that some of the Air Canada and United flights may be code-shares and not necessarily separate flights. On my IHA-YVR flight this past Sunday, for example, it was United Airlines metal code-shared with Air Canada. It was a brand new B737-900 no less with the fancy Boeing interior with Dreamliner lighting and cavernous B777 overhead bins.

http://i.imgur.com/VuAU1x1.jpg?1
Source: me

Johnny Aussie
Jan 21, 2016, 2:22 AM
With that in mind I put together a look at transborder flights, similar to the one I did for widebody international. It's a first crack so I'm sure there are some errors here and there, but it's pretty well researched.

As always love your work!

Just two things:

AC doesn't fly its own a/c to DEN. That's just code share with UA.
WS doesn't fly to MCO in the summer. Seasonal winter only.

I guess it's arguable whether to include all the Hawaii flights or not.

As for the hub debate I think it's been discussed ad nauseum over the last couple of years.

Very interesting info I read about SEA and DL on airliners.net today.
Summer 2016 DL is cutting capacity on: AMS, ICN, PEK and PVG. And of course HND is gone. All other international routes are status quo for capacity compared to summer 2015 those being: CDG, HKG, LHR and NRT. Just a curious observation.

Klazu
Jan 21, 2016, 2:35 AM
Summer 2016 DL is cutting capacity on: AMS, ICN, PEK and PVG. And of course HND is gone.

Can we perhaps be taking advantage of that? Does YVR offer good connection for people flying out of Seattle? Seattle is a stronghold for Delta (SkyTeam) and Alaska (One World) and unfortunately we are not so strong on that front.

Otherwise the gazillion daily SEA-YVR flights could also work to our advantage when Seattle is seeing reductions.

Klazu
Jan 21, 2016, 2:43 AM
As I traveled past 3 different 747s a few 777s and 787s, all different tails, I realized Vancouver has done the more difficult part of becoming a major hub first, attract long haul routes.

Exactly. To lure in so many different long-haul operators is something that no mid-size airport has it easy to accomplish. I definitely agree that we are doing great in this regards and it will continue to play into our advantage.

...we need more of the bread and butter type flights within North America. The type of flights that dont make headlines, impress no one, but make YVR a more accessible useful gateway.

This is challenging for an airport that doesn't have any airline calling it its base, as there is not that much feeder routes. It is also more difficult to achieve such with the border between us, but you shouldn't forget that on this side of the border we do have connection to pretty much all secondary and tertiary cities in Canada. Unfortunately they are just small in importance.

As I doubt any major airline would be willing to change from their current hub-and-spokes strategy to boost their operations out of Vancouver, but I think we might have a surprising opportunity. If only we could have US budget airlines begin flying to YRV, we might gain access to many secondary cities that these airlines operate from. That would require more code sharing to make it practical for the passangers, but it might work. To have someone like Southwest Airlines fly to Vancouver from all their hubs would be huge.

Our long-haul routes do make us an attractive gateway for airlines to fly to, but it will be challenging to gain more direct flights to Eastern US, which is quite far from us and many airlines will do much better with a hub somewhere in the midway.

trofirhen
Jan 21, 2016, 12:45 PM
If only we could have US budget airlines begin flying to YRV, we might gain access to many secondary cities that these airlines operate from. That would require more code sharing to make it practical for the passangers, but it might work. To have someone like Southwest Airlines fly to Vancouver from all their hubs would be huge.

I'd love to see Southwest Airlines into Vancouver. They don't rely on hubs as much as "point-to-point service, providing nonstops to each of their individual destinations. Wowee, imagine Southwest making Vancouver its Western Canada hub, with nonstops to to places like Charlotte, New Orleans, Pittsburg, Memphis, Austin, San Antonio, Philadelphia, Jacksonville, DC, Tucson, Kansas City .... Hey, Southwest might fill a big market niche here, if nobody else is willing to do it. (Too bad they don't serve Miami)

moosejaw
Jan 21, 2016, 3:08 PM
I'd love to see Southwest Airlines into Vancouver. They don't rely on hubs as much as "point-to-point service, providing nonstops to each of their individual destinations. Wowee, imagine Southwest making Vancouver its Western Canada hub, with nonstops to to places like Charlotte, New Orleans, Pittsburg, Memphis, Austin, San Antonio, Philadelphia, Jacksonville, DC, Tucson, Kansas City .... Hey, Southwest might fill a big market niche here, if nobody else is willing to do it. (Too bad they don't serve Miami)

Southwest flies into FLL which is 25 minutes north w/o traffic.
Plus theres a communter train connecting both airports.

I dont know if Southwest would consider YVR. Where would it fly to? SW in a lot of cities uses secondary airports like Midway, Love Field, Hobby, Islip, Manchester. They do fly into some big markets but concentrate on the smaller airports. For example they wanted to foot the bill and develop Boeing Field into their own terminal in lieu of using Sea Tac.

If SW does fly into YVR, that may open the market for Jetblue or Virgin America.

Valley_Refugee
Jan 21, 2016, 4:01 PM
Could the reason for the lack of transcontinental options from YVR be:
1) second-tier US cities are concentrated in the East (Pittsburgh, Charlotte, Nashville, Memphis, Cleveland, and such, and are therefore closer to YYZ?
2) In the Western States, there are fewer second-tier cities and a lower population density (?)
Or .... could it be that YYZ wants to keep most of the action for itself ... OR ... that there is also enough O/D traffic from many US cities to YYZ that does not exist for YVR, thereby justifying flights to YYZ?
*Or, is Air Canada just trying to keep YVR's wings clipped, ever so subtly, (which leads back to YYZ hegemony)?

Air Canada is in the business of making money, not forcing a conspiracy on the Canadian populace to concentrate flights at YYZ against their will.

Plain and simple, Vancouver doesn't have the high-margin O&D traffic required to form the base of a major hub (with the connecting flights that go with it), as YYZ does.

As I've said a million (or so) times before, Vancouver is incredibly well connected for a North American city of 2.8 million, especially considering it is not an economic or political capital.

Cage
Jan 21, 2016, 4:26 PM
AC doesn't fly its own a/c to DEN. That's just code share with UA.

For Summer 2016, AC does have a daily flight YVR-DEN using CRA aircraft. its a mid morning departure and late afternoon arrival. For the summer YVR-DEN is 2x daily UA and daily AC.

Cage
Jan 21, 2016, 4:51 PM
Could the reason for the lack of transcontinental options from YVR be:
1) second-tier US cities are concentrated in the East (Pittsburgh, Charlotte, Nashville, Memphis, Cleveland, and such, and are therefore closer to YYZ?
2) In the Western States, there are fewer second-tier cities and a lower population density (?)
Or .... could it be that YYZ wants to keep most of the action for itself ... OR ... that there is also enough O/D traffic from many US cities to YYZ that does not exist for YVR, thereby justifying flights to YYZ?
*Or, is Air Canada just trying to keep YVR's wings clipped, ever so subtly, (which leads back to YYZ hegemony)?

(1 and 2) As stated above, secondary US cities are concentrated in the East, along with most of the US population. I would also put forth that from an aviation perspective there are very few secondary US cities in the West, most cities are actually tertiary cities (Spokane, Reno, Sacremento, Tuscon, etc.).

RE YYZ Hub. There is a master plan to make YYZ into a global super hub. The airport, AC, and citizens of Toronto are all behind the plan. The airport has entered into a master fixed cost agreement with AC (the agreement is nonexclusive however no other airline has also signed up). AC is making YYZ the global super hub and directing the majority of expansion to the airport. Torontonians are supporting AC in large numbers to make the O&D traffic work for AC (AC is the preferred airline, even over airlines).

However one must also temper the AC is gutting/doesn't care about YVR with the fact that CP did not have aircraft to do YYZ-Asia nonstop. The DC10 workhorse could barely make YYZ-NRT work, even then the flight was gas pig that would make the flight uneconomical under the past 10 years. At the end of the day, if CP had made it into the 2000s with enough financial capacity to buy 77Ws, they would have bypassed YVR infavour of YYZ nonstop to Asia.

twoNeurons
Jan 21, 2016, 5:35 PM
Air Canada is in the business of making money, not forcing a conspiracy on the Canadian populace to concentrate flights at YYZ against their will.

Plain and simple, Vancouver doesn't have the high-margin O&D traffic required to form the base of a major hub (with the connecting flights that go with it), as YYZ does.

As I've said a million (or so) times before, Vancouver is incredibly well connected for a North American city of 2.8 million, especially considering it is not an economic or political capital.

Or put another way... Not enough industry/head offices/corporations to make flights to smaller airports outside the country. Vancouver is a resources/tourism hub, mostly. And that kind of traffic can be inconsistent.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 21, 2016, 6:48 PM
As I've said a million (or so) times before, Vancouver is incredibly well connected for a North American city of 2.8 million, especially considering it is not an economic or political capital.

Exactly and hence my comments why I said the whole hub debate (or why doesn't YVR have more flights to here or there... Wahhhh) has been discussed ad nauseum... every month it seems the same questions are asked only to be provided the same answers..

For Summer 2016, AC does have a daily flight YVR-DEN using CRA aircraft. its a mid morning departure and late afternoon arrival. For the summer YVR-DEN is 2x daily UA and daily AC.

That flight is operated as it always has been by United Express. Believe me AC would have had a press release about it along with SJC, SAN, ORD.

Orcair
Jan 21, 2016, 6:52 PM
For Summer 2016, AC does have a daily flight YVR-DEN using CRA aircraft. its a mid morning departure and late afternoon arrival. For the summer YVR-DEN is 2x daily UA and daily AC.


That flight is operated as it always has been by Unitd Exoress. Believe me AC would have had press release about it along with SJC, SAN, ORD.

:yes: According to AC.com, it's an UA Express CRJ-700, so a totally different aircraft from the CRJ-705 (which is really a CRJ-900)...

LeftCoaster
Jan 21, 2016, 7:30 PM
That's a great chart, LeftCoaster. Thank you.

One thought, I think that some of the Air Canada and United flights may be code-shares and not necessarily separate flights. On my IHA-YVR flight this past Sunday, for example, it was United Airlines metal code-shared with Air Canada. It was a brand new B737-900 no less with the fancy Boeing interior with Dreamliner lighting and cavernous B777 overhead bins.


No problem, this one was much tougher to do than the intl flights, since there are more flights and less information. Other than the changes pointed out by everyone it's mostly correct I think. Codeshares were definitely the toughest, it took me going onto the airline websites and attempting to book flights. From there the operator is listed. I think I got rid of most of the overlap, but clearly one or two still got through (phantom AC to Denver)

That United 737 looks fantastic, still no TVs in the back it seems though, that's a shame.



AC doesn't fly its own a/c to DEN. That's just code share with UA.
WS doesn't fly to MCO in the summer. Seasonal winter only.

I guess it's arguable whether to include all the Hawaii flights or not.

As for the hub debate I think it's been discussed ad nauseum over the last couple of years.

Very interesting info I read about SEA and DL on airliners.net today.
Summer 2016 DL is cutting capacity on: AMS, ICN, PEK and PVG. And of course HND is gone. All other international routes are status quo for capacity compared to summer 2015 those being: CDG, HKG, LHR and NRT. Just a curious observation.

The hub debate will continue I'm sure, for as long as we are on the verge of getting into that hub territory it will dominate the psyche.

Fixed the AC into Denver and WS MCO as well. I'm also planning on adding the Hawaii flights, as YVR does act as the closest point for travel between Europe and Hawaii, not that it's a huge market by any means, but every little bit helps!

Very surprising regarding Delta, especially given the growth at SEA this year, seems like a lot of the extra capacity was absorbed. Yields must be suffering.

Can we perhaps be taking advantage of that? Does YVR offer good connection for people flying out of Seattle? Seattle is a stronghold for Delta (SkyTeam) and Alaska (One World) and unfortunately we are not so strong on that front.

Otherwise the gazillion daily SEA-YVR flights could also work to our advantage when Seattle is seeing reductions.

SkyTeam is by far YVRs second biggest alliance, both transborder and internationally. China Eastern double daily, KLM/Airfrance more or less double daily and China Airlines+China Southern really bring in a lot of seats. Couple that with Delta being the largest non-star alliance transborder operator at YVR and the airport is really well served to cover any need from SEA. That said I think delta will add the capacity back to SEA if it is needed.


This is challenging for an airport that doesn't have any airline calling it its base, as there is not that much feeder routes.

That's the crux of it. AC has been good to YVR, but it is still for good reason focused on YYZ. What would do wonders for YVR would be a SkyTeam aligned airline hubbing out of Vancouver.

I do think AC can add more routes out of Vancouver without cannibalizing its YYZ ops, the mid-west particularly is unserved to Asia. Austin, St Louis or KC would be some great regions to connect to, and all are in range of a CRJ700.




As I've said a million (or so) times before, Vancouver is incredibly well connected for a North American city of 2.8 million, especially considering it is not an economic or political capital.

Couldn't agree more, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to be even better. I'm very impressed by what YVR has, but the sights should be set on what it can be. I think the airport is doing a great job at that, and hopefully airlines continue to buy in the way they have been.

(1 and 2) As stated above, secondary US cities are concentrated in the East, along with most of the US population. I would also put forth that from an aviation perspective there are very few secondary US cities in the West, most cities are actually tertiary cities (Spokane, Reno, Sacremento, Tuscon, etc.).

RE YYZ Hub. There is a master plan to make YYZ into a global super hub. The airport, AC, and citizens of Toronto are all behind the plan. The airport has entered into a master fixed cost agreement with AC (the agreement is nonexclusive however no other airline has also signed up). AC is making YYZ the global super hub and directing the majority of expansion to the airport. Torontonians are supporting AC in large numbers to make the O&D traffic work for AC (AC is the preferred airline, even over airlines).

However one must also temper the AC is gutting/doesn't care about YVR with the fact that CP did not have aircraft to do YYZ-Asia nonstop. The DC10 workhorse could barely make YYZ-NRT work, even then the flight was gas pig that would make the flight uneconomical under the past 10 years. At the end of the day, if CP had made it into the 2000s with enough financial capacity to buy 77Ws, they would have bypassed YVR infavour of YYZ nonstop to Asia.

I don't think that YYZs hub strategy should have a major effect on YVRs. The two airports are nearly 4,000kms apart and certainly serve different submarkets. While YVR no doubt competes with YYZ, its greater competition is LAX, SEA and SFO, while YYZs greatest competition is ORD and JFK.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 21, 2016, 8:23 PM
No problem, this one was much tougher to do than the intl flights, since there are more flights and less information. Other than the changes pointed out by everyone it's mostly correct I think. Codeshares were definitely the toughest, it took me going onto the airline websites and attempting to book flights. From there the operator is listed.

The hub debate will continue I'm sure, for as long as we are on the verge of getting into that hub territory it will dominate the psyche.

Couldn't agree more, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to be even better. I'm very impressed by what YVR has, but the sights should be set on what it can be. I think the airport is doing a great job at that, and hopefully airlines continue to buy in the way they have been.

Point 1) wow you are thorough making dummy bookings - kudos for effort!

Point 2) happy to continue the hub debate but nothing new is ever added it's the same old shit rehashed over and over. Why not? Because of a,b,c... Why not? Because of a,b,c <repeat>

Point 3) but that is exactly what YVR is doing. Nobody at YVRAA is sitting on their laurels... Look back to two to three years ago and see how much has been achieved in a really short time and 2016 is just continuing with that momentum. And the fact that four new Chinese Airlines have applied for YVR flights must tell you that YVR is striving to be better and bigger. All within the constraints as has been pointed out hundreds of times that YVR is still a relatively small city (population and economically) but with a decent geographic advantage.

Klazu
Jan 21, 2016, 8:54 PM
That United 737 looks fantastic, still no TVs in the back it seems though, that's a shame.

I have flown United 737 to Chicago and they had screens at every seat. They had live TV with dozens of channels, but unfortunately you have to pay for that to be able to watch anything. So you just end up having the screens loop same pre-programmed clips over and over again. :(

SFUVancouver
Jan 21, 2016, 9:53 PM
That United 737 looks fantastic, still no TVs in the back it seems though, that's a shame.



While I definitely prefer (free) seat-back IFE systems, United's alternative system works pretty well (when it works). One uses their own device (phone or tablet), connects to the in-flight WiFi connection, and opens the United App. While one must pay to use the WiFi for browsing, email, etc., if you go in through the United App, you can access and stream for free a pretty decent variety of current-ish movies and TV shows and they stream instantly and without buffering or resolution oscillation. I used the app to watch some TV between IAH and CLT when I didn't have to work on the plane, but to my disappointment, and the nearly whole cabin's frustration, I found out that the system wasn't working right for the 4.5 hour IAH-YVR flight on the new B739. They rebooted the WiFi a couple of times without success and the IFE never did load through the app.

Klazu
Jan 21, 2016, 10:02 PM
One uses their own device (phone or tablet), connects to the in-flight WiFi connection, and opens the United App.

The only down side is that their app doesn't support us lone wolves (Windows Phone users). :rolleyes:

LeftCoaster
Jan 21, 2016, 11:49 PM
Windows phone eh? Gutsy call!

I've had the wifi before on a flight to the Caymans, and it worked fine. Only issue I have with the Wifi system is draining my devices battery.


Point 2) happy to continue the hub debate but nothing new is ever added it's the same old shit rehashed over and over. Why not? Because of a,b,c... Why not? Because of a,b,c <repeat>

But what else would we talk about otherwise? ;)


Point 3) but that is exactly what YVR is doing. Nobody at YVRAA is sitting on their laurels... Look back to two to three years ago and see how much has been achieved in a really short time and 2016 is just continuing with that momentum. And the fact that four new Chinese Airlines have applied for YVR flights must tell you that YVR is striving to be better and bigger. All within the constraints as has been pointed out hundreds of times that YVR is still a relatively small city (population and economically) but with a decent geographic advantage.

Ya totally agree, that was the point I was trying to make with my post, saying the airport was doing a great job of it. I was just trying to explain to valley_refugee that I wasn't so much complaining about what we have but dreaming/planning for what could (and should) be.

Valley_Refugee
Jan 22, 2016, 8:49 PM
Windows phone eh? Gutsy call!

I've had the wifi before on a flight to the Caymans, and it worked fine. Only issue I have with the Wifi system is draining my devices battery.



But what else would we talk about otherwise? ;)



Ya totally agree, that was the point I was trying to make with my post, saying the airport was doing a great job of it. I was just trying to explain to valley_refugee that I wasn't so much complaining about what we have but dreaming/planning for what could (and should) be.

My comments certainly weren't directed at your productive contributions to this thread! :)

trofirhen
Jan 22, 2016, 10:25 PM
Southwest flies into FLL which is 25 minutes north w/o traffic. Plus theres a communter train connecting both airports.

I dont know if Southwest would consider YVR. Where would it fly to? SW in a lot of cities uses secondary airports like Midway, Love Field, Hobby, Islip, Manchester. They....... concentrate on t he smaller airports.

If SW does fly into YVR, that may open the market for Jetblue or Virgin America.

To me, Virgin America is synonymous with SF and a couple of major US airports. It does provide the possibility of a "fan out" to mid-sized airports in the US, pure and simple.
Is Jetblue a possibility? Air Canada won't and Westjet wouldn't.
That's what people in Vancouver and YVR interested folks are looking for. Is there any airline that would fill the gap to just a few more: KC, Philadelphia, Boston, Miami (or FLL) St. Louis, Atlanta, DC, Charlotte and Pittsburgh.[stop]*
Any takers? Jetblue? Westjet? (evidently not Sputhwest).... Delta, Delta connection .... anybody ...? :???:

LeftCoaster
Jan 22, 2016, 10:32 PM
very unlikely any of the above would venture into that.

The alliance carriers (Delta United & American) are all too focused on building and defending their hubs. With the exception of the hubs you listed, most of these smaller US airports only fly into hubs and direct to other cities via point to point airlines (Southwest etc...)

The point to point airlines could fill certain niches at YVR, but it is still doubtful they will expand to Canada. Not exactly sure why, but they seem quite content in their domestic roles in the US.

Our only real hope comes from Air Canada, or from a dark horse being Westjet. Westjet is going to be in some serious trouble in Alberta, where most of their flying is done right now. With yields and loads set to drop significantly in Alberta they will be under pressure to re-deploy their fleet. YYZ is the obvious choice, but they face huge competition from Air Canada there. An alternative is to develop their operations at YVR, which are currently very weak, and certain gaps may exist as Air Canada would prefer to route through YYZ. I am personally quite interested to see how WestJet responds to the slowdown in Alberta. I am fully expecting their eyes to turn to the west coast...

trofirhen
Jan 22, 2016, 11:24 PM
very unlikely any of the above would venture into that. ...
The alliance carriers (Delta United & American) are all too focused on building and defending their hubs.......
Our only real hope comes from Air Canada, or from a dark horse being Westjet. Westjet is going to be in some serious trouble in Alberta, where most of their flying is done right now. .......
I am personally quite interested to see how WestJet responds to the slowdown in Alberta. I am fully expecting their eyes to turn to the west coast...
I'm hoping for something like that, too. WS might just do that. YVR might just become a Westjet "Hub City." Imagine. It could happen.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 23, 2016, 4:06 AM
This may be of interest to a lot of you wondering about YVR's Transborder routes potential.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/51-205-x/2011000/tablesectlist-listetableauxsect-eng.htm

Granted the last time this info was compiled was 2012. There has been significant growth between YVR and the U.S. since then but these tables give a good indication of potential markets based on O&D.

Just to put the numbers into perspective.

Annualised market based on the number of pax per day each way (ppdew)

40 ppdew = 29,200 annual pax
50 ppdew = 36,500 annual pax

I'll stop there for now.

So factoring in a secondary US city is NOT a hub or even a focus city, any direct YVR route would depend more on O&D unless YVR can leverage off its broad Asian network. So imagine just a 90 seat aircraft would generate 65,700 annual seats on a route.

Per these tables and based on 2012 data, the largest under-served route (after SAN - since it is starting up again) is BOS with an annual traffic of 50,540 pax, which is just under 70 ppdew.
After BOS: FLL (39,491), MIA (32,570), PHL (31,400) then a big gap down to AUS (20,830). AUS's figure puts it at 28 ppdew. SMF isn't far behind AUS but they'd be under 28 pax per day. When AC attempted SMF a few years ago, again AC was attempting to leverage its Asian connections. This route would not survive on O&D alone even with just one daily 50 seater. As we recall this route did not last long.

The above flights (except SMF) have very long stage lengths and the economics of making any of these routes profitable would be tough. Having said that, BOS, MIA and PHL were definitely served at one time direct from YVR. MIA can leverage off its huge South American network (as what AA tried to do years ago), PHL is of course a huge hub for AA and as for BOS, perhaps another crack at that direct one day.

But these raw figures should help explain why there are no direct flights to PIT, MCI or Chippewa Falls.

Interesting tid bit in regards to PIT - US Airways back in their PIT hub hey day was on the verge of launching a PIT-YVR route... they were predicting about 94% of passengers would be connecting onto their vast network at the time. Similar to TWA and the YVR-STL route. PIT and US (now AA) as we all know has gone the way of the dodo bird.

trofirhen
Jan 23, 2016, 4:56 AM
This may be of interest to a lot of you wondering about YVR's Transborder routes potential.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/51-205-x/2011000/tablesectlist-listetableauxsect-eng.htm

Granted the last time this info was compiled was 2012. There has been significant growth between YVR and the U.S. since then but these tables give a good indication of potential markets based on O&D.

Just to put the numbers into perspective.

Annualised market based on the number of pax per day each way (ppdew)

40 ppdew = 29,200 annual pax
50 ppdew = 36,500 annual pax

data, the largest under-served route (after SAN - since it is starting up again) is BOS with an annual traffic of 50,540 pax, which is just under 70 ppdew.
After BOS: FLL (39,491), MIA (32,570), PHL (31,400) then a big gap down to AUS (20,830). AUS's figure puts it at 28 ppdew. SMF isn't far behind AUS but they'd be under 28 pax per day. When AC attempted SMF a few years ago, again AC was attempting to leverage its Asian connections. This route would not survive on O&D alone even with just one daily 50 seater. As we recall this route did not last long..............................

............These raw figures should help explain why there are no direct flights to PIT, MCI or Chippewa Falls.


What cities would work as regularly served destinations? You mentioned Boston. Any others?

Johnny Aussie
Jan 24, 2016, 6:39 AM
What cities would work as regularly served destinations? You mentioned Boston. Any others?

Have a look through the data tables. Some interesting numbers in there.

Other than O&D of course....

Passengers originating in Vancouver (and BC in general using YVR) heading to the U.S. are mainly:

1) connecting to somewhere else in the US
2) connecting to somewhere in Europe
3) connecting to somewhere in Central/South America
4) connecting to somewhere in Asia
5) connecting to somewhere in Australia

Again, other than O&D

Passengers originating in the USA heading to YVR are mainly:

1) connecting to somewhere else in Canada
2) connecting to somewhere in Asia
And to a lesser extent Europe or Australia.

As a transit point, geographically, YVR's advantage for the rest of North America is obviously Asian connections. So any large US city with large traffic numbers to/from Asia would be ideal connections. So again, outside those routes already served directly to/from YVR how many would be left? But don't forget there are plenty of non-stop flights from plenty of US gateways to Asia.

The other main point I want to make is geographical as well. The further East a city is in the US, the less likely a passenger would use YVR to transit to somewhere in Canada other than BC/Yukon. However, YVR is also the main transfer point to the US for other cities in BC, Yukon and to a much lesser extent Alberta.

Soooooo, unless a US city is a big hub for one of their domestic airlines, using the above criteria the number of viable new routes would be fairly limited.

After saying all that... East of the Mississippi: BOS, MIA and PHL would at least be in the realm of possibilities as restarting. But.....
BOS would only most likely be served by AC but O&D alone is still not enough and AC would route Asian passengers via YYZ from BOS. Too much risk to move them through YVR by dedicating an aircraft for that long route. MIA and PHL would be operated by AA only. MIA, perhaps on AC but again, would be a huge risk due to stage length. Perhaps a long shot may be seasonal service to CLT based on their huge AA hub. But, YVR-ATL is down to just a couple of flights per week seasonally anyway so who knows? Also consider, DTW and IAD are now just token weekly seasonal flights. And those are both relatively large hubs for DL and UA respectively. This side of the Mississippi: maybe SMF again only because of leveraging YVR's Asian connections and could provide decent connections to other places in Canada.

All other markets based on the data presented would present too many difficulties to make any of them viable. Remembering that any route with an annual traffic volume of less than 36,500 passengers is less than 50 pax per day each way.

casper
Jan 24, 2016, 6:49 AM
Have a look through the data tables. Some interesting numbers in there.

Other than O&D of course....

Passengers originating in Vancouver heading to the U.S. are mainly:

1) connecting to somewhere else in the US
2) connecting to somewhere in Europe
3) connecting to somewhere in Central/South America
4) connecting to somewhere in Asia
5) connecting to somewhere in Australia

Again, other than O&D

Passengers originating in the USA heading to YVR are mainly:

1) connecting to somewhere else in Canada
2) connecting to somewhere in Asia
And to a lesser extent Europe or Australia.

As a transit point, geographically, YVR's advantage for the rest of North America is obviously Asian connections. So any large US city with large traffic numbers to/from Asia would be ideal connections. So again, outside those routes already served directly to/from YVR how many would be left? But don't forget there are plenty of non-stop flights from plenty of US gateways to Asia.

The other main point I want to make is geographical as well. The further East a city is in the US, the less likely a passenger would use YVR to transit to somewhere in Canada other than BC/Yukon. However, YVR is also the main transfer point to the US for other cities in BC, Yukon and to a much lesser extent Alberta.

Soooooo, unless a US city is a big hub for one of their domestic airlines, using the above criteria the number of viable new routes would be fairly limited.

After saying all that... East of the Mississippi: BOS, MIA and PHL would at least be in the realm of possibilities as restarting. But.....
BOS would only most likely be served by AC but O&D alone is still not enough and AC would route Asian passengers via YYZ from BOS. Too much risk to move them through YVR by dedicating an aircraft for that long route. MIA and PHL would be operated by AA only. MIA, perhaps on AC but again, would be a huge risk due to stage length. Perhaps a long shot may be seasonal service to CLT based on their huge AA hub. But, YVR-ATL is down to just a couple of flights per week seasonally anyway so who knows? Also consider, DTW and IAD are now just token weekly seasonal flights. And those are both relatively large hubs for DL and UA respectively. This side of the Mississippi: maybe SMF again only because of leveraging YVR's Asian connections and could provide decent connections to other places in Canada.

All other markets based on the data presented would present too many difficulties to make any of them viable. Remembering that any route with an annual traffic volume of less than 36,500 passengers is less than 50 pax per day each way.

I get the impression as AC builds up Asia from Vancouver it is left with creative things to do with widebodies. Perhaps we mighty see a BOS or MIA in the future to increase aircraft utilisation.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 24, 2016, 7:36 AM
I get the impression as AC builds up Asia from Vancouver it is left with creative things to do with widebodies. Perhaps we mighty see a BOS or MIA in the future to increase aircraft utilisation.

I am still impressed they are putting a 787-8 on EWR.

But overall, future new US routes will be rather limited for some time. (ie new routes, not just additional frequencies or new airlines on exisiting routes which is more likely).

Transborder ex YVR has grown about 20% since 2012 (based on projected 2015 full year results).

Looking forward to seeing the December and full year 2015 results. We know YVR will exceed 20,000,000 passengers, but looking at other categories:

Transborder will exceed 5,000,000 for the first time
Asia Pacific will exceed 3,000,000 for the first time
Europe will exceed 1,300,000 for the first time

And total international is going to be oh so close to hitting 10,000,000.... gonna be very close. I just ran some projections and will most likely be in the 9,960,000 to 9,980,000 range.

Quite a few significant milestones will be reached.

stiffdeadman
Jan 24, 2016, 10:19 AM
I don't see much happening transborder wise. I think the winter and summer schedules are pretty much set for the most part for awhile. United is the dominant US carrier, serving all their hubs multiple times daily. Delta is dumping everything they have into Seattle. Perhaps if the Los Angeles flights perform well, they will upgauge them to mainline with 717's. Would be cool to see those up here having seen them in PDX and SEA. Everything else has been downsized such as MSP and SLC. I think American would be the only possibilty of adding a route. Perhaps with increased cruise traffic next summer they will restart ORD. They did it a few years ago for a summer but didn't bring it back. It is the one glaring hole in their network from here. Perhaps they throw an A319 on it. Frontier has been and gone. Alaska is done with YVR and wouldn't be surprised in BLI ends after this schedule cycle. Spirit isn't coming. Southwest isn't coming. Jetblue's only western presence is Long Beach and that is minimal. They don't even use all their slot pairings down there anymore. As well they don't serve Toronto or Montreal from their Boston hub, so odds are they are not even thinking of YVR. Virgin America could be a candidate with their hub in SFO, however they tried SFO-YYZ and it failed, so they may be afraid of Canada now. Maybe when Hawaiian gets their A321neo's in 2017 they'll send one here. Would love to see that tail here. Saw the A330-200 down in PDX and it was cool.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 24, 2016, 5:48 PM
So goodbye AS and hello WS.

According to airliners.net and the weekly OAG update....

Westjet is adding a third daily flight on the YVR-LAX route this summer.

YVR-LAX back to 13 daily with 5 carriers this summer.

Edit: schedules just loaded. All three daily will be operated with 73H equipment.

YVR-LAX schedule (dep-arr)
0805 - 1100
1625 - 1920
1945 - 2240** new flight

LAX-YVR schedule (dep-arr)
0835 - 1114** new flight
1145 - 1424
2005 - 2244

trofirhen
Jan 24, 2016, 6:41 PM
I am still impressed they are putting a 787-8 on EWR.
But overall, future new US routes will be rather limited for some time.
We know YVR will exceed 20,000,000 passengers, but looking at other categories:

Transborder will exceed 5,000,000 for the first time
Asia Pacific will exceed 3,000,000 for the first time
Europe will exceed 1,300,000 for the first time

And total international is going to be oh so close to hitting 10,000,000.... gonna be very close. I just ran some projections and will most likely be in the 9,960,000 to 9,980,000 range.
Quite a few significant milestones will be reached.


Hokey smokes, that's just uner the slightly larger half for domestic !! I wonder if we'll get any interesting new destinations this year, other than ones already announced.

... imagine when TWV is in ... whenever that will be .....

Cage
Jan 24, 2016, 10:53 PM
Transborder wise, YVR big problem is that UA is the most western of US airlines, they are not going to desire transport pax from their hubs to connect in YVR to Asian destinations. Counterpoint would be if AC, CA, NH, and UA could do a Joint venture like what's happening on the Atlantic side. This would bring lots of pax through YVR.

With DL trying to build a hub at SEA before they get kicked out of NRT, they are unlikely to promote YVR unless it's hourly shuttle to SEA or LAX.

The best hop is that AC starts to build a transborder connection bank to facilitate Asian connection traffic.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 25, 2016, 12:37 AM
Effective 16 June 3 weekly YVR-SAN on 73H equipment.

http://airlineroute.net/2016/01/24/ws-jun16/

Flights will operate Tuesdays, Thursdays and Sundays.

WS1762 YVR1215 - 1508SAN 247 73H
WS1763 SAN1555 - 1851YVR 247 73H

Effective 7 Septemebr this flight will switch to a 73W.

Unsure if seasonal or permanent... I'm tipping permanent year round.

Vagabond
Jan 25, 2016, 1:38 AM
Effective 16 June 3 weekly YVR-SAN on 73H equipment.

http://airlineroute.net/2016/01/24/ws-jun16/

Flights will operate Tuesdays, Thursdays and Sundays.

WS1762 YVR1215 - 1508SAN 247 73H
WS1763 SAN1555 - 1851YVR 247 73H

Effective 7 Septemebr this flight will switch to a 73W.

Unsure if seasonal or permanent... I'm tipping permanent year round.

Yeah! I've been waiting for this flight for a while. (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=7243100#post7243100) :)

I especially like the timings (more family friendly that the corresponding AC Rouge flight). No Saturday flight is a bit of a bummer, however. Here's to hoping the flight is a success, and they add more days to the schedule (sooner than later!)

Cage
Jan 25, 2016, 4:14 AM
I am still impressed they are putting a 787-8 on EWR.

I too have been thinking about the reasoning for putting the 788 onto YVR-EWR.

AC current location at EWR cannot handle the Dreamliner without significantly harming other operators at terminal A banjo 1. This could be a way for AC to get into terminal B or C. with the recent DL- UA slot swap, 2-3 gates at terminal B will open up. AC could take over the vacated DL gates and be closer to Joint venture partner UA.

The alternative is AC going into terminal C with UA. This would have all kinds of additional benefits for AC customer; lounge access, tighter connections to Europe and eastern USA.

All the extra benefits of moving at EWR and AC gets higher utilization on widebody aircraft.

ShawnShank
Jan 25, 2016, 4:42 AM
Looks like Xiamen Airlines finally got approval, announcing service starting 25th of July, 3 weekly (evening arrival) with 787-8

http://airlineroute.net/2016/01/25/mf-yvr-jul16/

excel
Jan 25, 2016, 5:23 AM
^:cheers:

Year round I assume?

Probably been mentioned, but I just noticed that we will be only the second city outside of Asia/Oceania served by Xiamen Airlines. :) The other city being Amsterdam.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 25, 2016, 5:38 AM
Finally!

Excellent news.... Let's see if the other three applications to the CAAC come to fruition!

Another decent day of service increase announcements with Westjet to SAN and increased LAX and now Xiamen to Xiamen.

2016 really is shaping up to be another impressive year.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 25, 2016, 8:42 PM
http://westjet2.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1099

Buried in this article by Westjet about expanding YYZ are the highlights to YVR's Transborder flights. Of course it mentions the SAN and LAX additions but also HNL and OGG. So both HNL and OGG back to daily (up from 6 weekly each). However, KOA and LIH are being made seasonal so no weekly summer flights this year. Basically the KOA and LIH flights have been transferred to HNL and OGG.

LeftCoaster
Jan 25, 2016, 10:18 PM
T Counterpoint would be if AC, CA, NH, and UA could do a Joint venture like what's happening on the Atlantic side. This would bring lots of pax through YVR.


I thought this was already in place? Well AC and CA at least. Bringing in UA would be huge.

LeftCoaster
Jan 25, 2016, 10:21 PM
Another decent day of service increase announcements with Westjet to SAN and increased LAX and now Xiamen to Xiamen.

Funny how we go from 0 flights to SAN to 10 a week in the span of a month or so.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 26, 2016, 12:27 AM
Funny how we go from 0 flights to SAN to 10 a week in the span of a month or so.

True. SAN was the largest unserved nonstop market from YVR.

Klazu
Jan 26, 2016, 12:36 AM
Perhaps Westjet's announcements are also in lieu of Alberta's problems, so they are putting more planes also on YVR.

Westjet cutting flights ??

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/business/westjet-cutting-back-on-flights-from-calgary-edmonton-amid-downturn-1.2751358

CALGARY -- Fewer WestJet planes will be flying in and out Alberta's two biggest cities as weakness in the energy sector puts a damper on demand.
As of March, the airline said it will be reducing service between Calgary and Edmonton. Several more routes to and from those two cities are either being cancelled or scaled back.
"We look at our service based on supply and demand," WestJet vice-president Richard Bartrem said Monday.
"With the downturn in the economy, we're seeing less demand for travel to and from the energy markets and into areas across Canada. We've decided that we would move some of that capacity into markets where we're seeing less of that impact so that we're actually using the fleet as effectively as possible while minimizing the effect on the guest."

Bartrem said the decline in traffic has been "noticeable enough" to warrant changes, but did not specify how big of a drop the airline saw in the affected markets.
WestJet will be removing flights between Calgary and two B.C. destinations -- Terrace and Prince George. Direct flights between Edmonton and Nanaimo and Kamloops, B.C. are also being cancelled. Bartrem said customers can still get between those destinations by changing planes elsewhere.
As well, WestJet is reducing the number of flights between Calgary and Brandon, Man. and Fort McMurray, Alta. And there be fewer flights between the provincial capital and Abbotsford, B.C. and Grande Prairie, Alta.
WestJet (TSX:WJA) says it's transferring more of its capacity to Eastern Canada, meaning more trips between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal as well as to Atlantic destinations like Halifax and Fredericton.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 26, 2016, 2:00 AM
Perhaps Westjet's announcements are also in lieu of Alberta's problems, so they are putting more planes also on YVR.

If you look at what YVR is gaining, it's really only 10 weekly flights to the US. LAX is getting a third daily and SAN three weekly. Hawaii overall is a wash. Other than that, I think that's it. I think YVR is just lucky to have escaped any cuts at all.

LeftCoaster
Jan 26, 2016, 2:07 AM
Well YYZ only got 13, 5 of which are a Dash-8, so that's not much more than YVR.

I'd imagine there are many more announcements coming from WestJet as the Alberta fallout evolves.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 26, 2016, 2:21 AM
Well YYZ only got 13, 5 of which are a Dash-8, so that's not much more than YVR.

I'd imagine there are many more announcements coming from WestJet as the Alberta fallout evolves.

YYZ is also getting increases on other Transborder routes such as MCO, TPA and FLL plus they are getting some enhancements on domestic routes as well. More flights to YFC, YOW and YUL. Their net gain is actually quite a bit more than 13.

As the schedules are removed/loaded over the next little while I am sure all the changes will become transparent. Westjet is usually pretty quick to update their online schedules once press announcements are made.

Gordon
Jan 26, 2016, 1:42 PM
It would be nice if WS would take SFO from seasonal to yea around. That route could use some competition.

LeftCoaster
Jan 26, 2016, 10:02 PM
This may be of interest to a lot of you wondering about YVR's Transborder routes potential.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/51-205-x/2011000/tablesectlist-listetableauxsect-eng.htm


So Johnny's Statscan table got me thinking, and I put together some of the "larger" routes out of YVR, added a factor of growth to scale up from 2012 to 2016 (YVR transborder grew 19.6% in those 3 years!) and tried to find the right plane for each route based on range and PAX to see what was viable.

The following spreadsheet looks at pure O&D to each city and sees how many flights the route can support based on the smallest or most logical aircraft for the route. I combined a few of the routes that act more like regions to really get a good idea. Note this doesn't factor into account aircraft availability or little details like 319-Rouges no longer flying out of YVR.

http://i.imgur.com/UPcbuzW.png?2

The sheet seems to tell me that there are a fair amount of undeserved routes, especially when considering the amount of connecting traffic most US airports see.


Austin + San Antonio - Given the growth in tech in both cities, including shared companies, this one seems like just a matter of time.
Boston - How this one isn't a route yet really confuses me. I get that it's a long flight, but loads look strong and the two are very wealthy cities.
Detroit - Seems like it could carry more than the 1 flight per week in the summer it currently gets.
Miami + Ft. Lauderdale - Another no-brainer, especially given the gateway Miami provides to the Vancouver-Caribbean market, which is currently very under-served.
Orlando - Shows us why Westjet is dipping its feet in, and why National may or may not be interested.
Philadelphia - Seems like a 3 per week could easily work here on O&D alone, not to mention access to the PHI hub.
Charlotte + Raleigh - This one was a surprise for me, I expected it to be stronger. Might work given the huge hub at Charlotte but it's pretty weak.
Tampa - Looks like this one could easily be supported by a 3PW 319 Rouge service. It's a long flight but if 3 days are already filled with O&D it should work. Should only get stronger as the boomers retire.
Washington DC - Looks like this one should be daily already, why United ignores this route is a bit of a head scratcher. I'd imagine it would support good yields too.


This doesn't come as too big a surprise to me. Whenever I try to fly though the states out of YVR these days it's like there are NO direct flights since they get booked up so quickly. One would ave no idea there are 2 large flights a day to Houston for instance, since I always seem to get routed though YYC, which tells me that their flights are probably quite empty.

trofirhen
Jan 26, 2016, 11:14 PM
So Johnny's Statscan table got me thinking, and I put together some of the "larger" routes out of YVR, added a factor of growth to scale up from 2012 to 2016 (YVR transborder grew 19.6% in those 3 years!) and tried to find the right plane for each route based on range and PAX to see what was viable.........

This doesn't come as too big a surprise to me. Whenever I try to fly though the states out of YVR these days it's like there are NO direct flights since they get booked up so quickly. One would ave no idea there are 2 large flights a day to Houston for instance, since I always seem to get routed though YYC, which tells me that their flights are probably quite empty.
Would this indicate a potential increase in flight frequencies >< YVR, and / or different metal?

Klazu
Jan 26, 2016, 11:15 PM
A slow day in the office, eh? ;)

Very interesting stuff there and must have taken considerable time to pile that list!

Some of the destinations that you mention being significant hubs might make sense to have a direct route, but perhaps the US airlines don't want to serve every possible destination out of every single hub they have. It seems that often times they like routing you via their hub on both coasts, especially if traveling to a smaller airport.

Whenever I try to fly though the states out of YVR these days it's like there are NO direct flights since they get booked up so quickly.

This is so true. Me and my wife have been doing a lot of coast-to-coast flying (she even more than I) and it does indeed feel like there is almost never a direct flight available, even if one would exist. It is always via some hub in the US which makes it a full day of travel. With more direct flights one might make business trips with less overnight stays at the destination.

LeftCoaster
Jan 26, 2016, 11:42 PM
A slow day in the office, eh? ;)

Very interesting stuff there and must have taken considerable time to pile that list!

Haha it actually didn't take much time at all, just a few equations and excel did the rest. Did it sitting on a plane to YVR actually!

This is so true. Me and my wife have been doing a lot of coast-to-coast flying (she even more than I) and it does indeed feel like there is almost never a direct flight available, even if one would exist. It is always via some hub in the US which makes it a full day of travel. With more direct flights one might make business trips with less overnight stays at the destination.

Incredibly frustrating right? I'm doing more and more flying out of YVR and it drives me nuts how often I need an extra connection because the YVR direct leg is full.

excel
Jan 27, 2016, 12:19 AM
Great spreadsheet. Thanks for putting in the time.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 27, 2016, 1:03 AM
Love your work. But this really does come back down to the potentials only really being BOS, PHL, MIA and SMF right?
AUS and SAT are really two separate markets. Sure only an hour and a half drive but neither being hubs, O&D would be critical... With a few one stop options for all three alliances would be a tough one to crack. The Asian potential connection would be a factor but overall would be tough and would really require a daily flight if wanting to crack the business market 3-4 flights on a CR7 ain't gonna work.
TPA? let's add that to the realm of outside possibilities. It is larger than I would have thought.
So additional frequencies to IAD and DTW... see how we go. Both have been tried daily but scaled back. Maybe grown enough for a crack at increased frequencies again. Right now the weekly flights during peak summer are solely related to cruise traffic.
AC will be phasing out their 37 seat dashes and not ideal for RNO or SMF.

Love your "undeserved" typo... Ha ha.

ShawnShank
Jan 27, 2016, 1:17 AM
Not sure how reliable this is, but it says that Vancouver will be one of the first A350-900 destinations for China Airlines

https://talkairlines.wordpress.com/2015/05/18/talkinterior-china-airlines-hints-airbus-a350-900xwb-cabin-design-and-outlines-route-plan/

Really hope this comes to fruition

Johnny Aussie
Jan 27, 2016, 1:23 AM
Not sure how reliable this is, but it says that Vancouver will be one of the first A350-900 destinations for China Airlines

https://talkairlines.wordpress.com/2015/05/18/talkinterior-china-airlines-hints-airbus-a350-900xwb-cabin-design-and-outlines-route-plan/

Really hope this comes to fruition

Yup. Was discussed last year. The problem with the Canada-Taiwan bilateral is the restriction is based on frequencies and not seats. So to go from a daily 744 to a 350 is a big hit to seat numbers. But of course like most carriers, the 744 is on its way out. There are four (I think!) remaining unutilised frequencies on the Taiwan side. Coincidentally EVA to YVR and YYZ are both 5 weekly at the moment, having recently been increased from four weekly each in early December.

However.... now that AC has the permission from the CTA to code share on EVA... perhaps we may see both routes bumped to daily. Ruling made yesterday.

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/19-a-2016

LeftCoaster
Jan 27, 2016, 1:26 AM
Love your work. But this really does come back down to the potentials only really being BOS, PHL, MIA and SMF right?
AUS and SAT are really two separate markets. Sure only an hour and a half drive but neither being hubs, O&D would be critical... With a few one stop options for all three alliances would be a tough one to crack. The Asian potential connection would be a factor but overall would be tough and would really require a daily flight if wanting to crack the business market 3-4 flights on a CR7 ain't gonna work.
TPA? let's add that to the realm of outside possibilities. It is larger than I would have thought.
So additional frequencies to IAD and DTW... see how we go. Both have been tried daily but scaled back. Maybe maturing enough for a crack at it. Right now the weekly flights during peak summer are solely related to cruise traffic.
AC will be phasing out their 37 seat dashes and not ideal for RNO or SMF.

Love your "undeserved" typo... Ha ha.

Haha I fixed one of them and completely missed the other.

My reasoning on 5-7 flights per day to AUS is that my increase of every route by 19% was completely arbitrary, and some routes likely grew much better than others. Given Austin's economic performance, and the completely under-appreciated growth of tech in YVR, I'd guess their numbers are likely higher than I have shown and could support a weekdays CR7.

IAD, why is that not a daily? Both airports seem to compliment each other and have many intl' flights the other doesn't have (YVR: Shanghai, HK, Sydney... IAD: Dubai, Sao Paulo, Joburg...) This plus the O&D alone looking like it supports 5 flights per week. Surely connecting PAX could push this one to daily on a 319, possibly even a 737-700 or 320.

Other than that I would agree, it's mainly BOS, MIA, PHL and SMF.

Curious why it would be mainly PHL and not IAD by the way, is PHL that big of a hub compared to IAD? I always thought IAD was a pretty big part of United's hub system.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 27, 2016, 1:39 AM
Haha I fixed one of them and completely missed the other.

My reasoning on 5-7 flights per day to AUS is that my increase of every route by 19% was completely arbitrary, and some routes likely grew much better than others. Given Austin's economic performance, and the completely under-appreciated growth of tech in YVR, I'd guess their numbers are likely higher than I have shown and could support a weekdays CR7.

IAD, why is that not a daily? Both airports seem to compliment each other and have many intl' flights the other doesn't have (YVR: Shanghai, HK, Sydney... IAD: Dubai, Sao Paulo, Joburg...) This plus the O&D alone looking like it supports 5 flights per week. Surely connecting PAX could push this one to daily on a 319, possibly even a 737-700 or 320.

Other than that I would agree, it's mainly BOS, MIA, PHL and SMF.

Curious why it would be mainly PHL and not IAD by the way, is PHL that big of a hub compared to IAD? I always thought IAD was a pretty big part of United's hub system.

Couldn't resist... And here comes another... I bet 5-7 flights "per day" to AUS would have as many passengers as Westjet's flights from Edmonton to Kamloops or Nanaimo! :runaway: again... Couldn't resist... Is it late in YYZ NOW?!?! :haha::haha:

Ok... with Austin as I briefly mentioned, there are so many decent one stop options a direct YVR would have to compete with: AA via LAX, DFW and PHX; DL via LAX, SEA and SLC; UA via SFO, LAX, DEN, IAH and even ORD; AS via SEA. To get enough loyal frequent fliers out of their programs and get enough bums into a daily CRA to make it work... Asian leveraging would also be up against LAX, SFO and SEA.... well you get the picture! O&D would really have to be more in the 50,000 annual range to consider this I would think. AUS alone, not with SAT.

IAD - it was daily two years ago but only 1-2 a week last couple of years. So far summer 2016 still only Saturday service. Why is it not able to handle more? Perhaps the proximity to and overlap with EWR and the overlap with ORD... :shrug:

PHL - was tried daily a few years back as a red eye. Perhaps a different flight time and/or a weekend only type service would work but same as IAD.... :shrug:

Johnny Aussie
Jan 27, 2016, 6:39 AM
Wow the YVR news just keeps getting better for 2016.

From 22 June to 30 Sept KE will be flying the 747-8 on the YVR-ICN route

http://airlineroute.net/2016/01/27/ke-s16update2/

So YVR gets both 747-8s from Korean Air, passenger and cargo.

According to koreanair.com config is 6F/48C/314Y - ttl 368 with all their brand new products.

So summer 2016 YVR is getting both passenger super jumbos. The BA 380 and now the KE 748. 748 is longer by about 3.5m.

:D

excel
Jan 27, 2016, 6:46 AM
Wow awesome! Definitely one of my favs!

ShawnShank
Jan 27, 2016, 7:38 AM
China airlines 744 went into the grass off a taxiway

http://i.imgur.com/2URytXk.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/pNJRvbJ.jpg

Klazu
Jan 27, 2016, 9:24 PM
I just booked a YVR-HKG-TPE-HKG-YVR trip and will be heading to Hong Kong and Taipei for vacation in two weeks! :tup:

Air Canada was by far the cheapest option on the YVR-HKG (and it's non-stop) route, but damn that 77W HD that they are flying on that route. I am not looking forward to sitting 13h 30min in the economy class on that plane. I hope things are a bit better on the aisle seats and perhaps I am able to upgrade to the Exit seats or even Premium Economy.

On HKG-TPE route there is some serious competion and I found ridiculously cheap business class seats onboard Hong Kong Airline. They fly a new A330 on that route with lie-flat pods, so not bad for $350 return!

Really looking for my trip to these two skyscraper meccas. I have six full days in Hong Kong and five in Taipei. The amount of photos I will take will be crazy... :D

vanlaw
Jan 27, 2016, 9:34 PM
I just booked a YVR-HKG-TPE-HKG-YVR trip and will be heading to Hong Kong and Taipei for vacation in two weeks! :tup:

Air Canada was by far the cheapest option on the YVR-HKG (and it's non-stop) route, but damn that 77W HD that they are flying on that route. I am not looking forward to sitting 13h 30min in the economy class on that plane. I hope things are a bit better on the aisle seats and perhaps I am able to upgrade to the Exit seats or even Premium Economy.

On HKG-TPE route there is some serious competion and I found ridiculously cheap business class seats onboard Hong Kong Airline. They fly a new A330 on that route with lie-flat pods, so not bad for $350 return!

Really looking for my trip to these two skyscraper meccas. I have six full days in Hong Kong and five in Taipei. The amount of photos I will take will be crazy... :D

I just did the YVR-HKG run on AC's 77W HD. Honestly, it wasn't nearly as bad as I was expecting. We fly quite a bit, always in economy, and it didn't feel any worse than LH's or BA's economy product from Vancouver. Granted, we are a family of four and the kids are small, so we can take up the whole middle row, so maybe that makes it a bit better.

The bottom of the seats are a little short (i.e not deep enough), and the controls on the arm are idiotic, but comfort wise it was ok. The larger screens and IFE are great too. Much improved over the old AC product. When we booked back in August it was under $700 each. I can deal with a bit of cramped room for that price.

Klazu
Jan 27, 2016, 10:45 PM
Good to know that the flight can be survived and I have flown once on this plane from YVR to YYZ. It is not completely unbearable, but everything is more cramped than on other planes. In the end it depends on your luck and what kind of person you end up getting next to your narrow seat.

Yeah, I saw similar prices just before Christmas but was not able to book at time, so I paid slightly more. Going to Hong Kong flight is not the biggest expenditure but accommodation. Damn that city is expensive!

LeftCoaster
Jan 27, 2016, 11:23 PM
Couldn't resist... And here comes another... I bet 5-7 flights "per day" to AUS would have as many passengers as Westjet's flights from Edmonton to Kamloops or Nanaimo! :runaway: again... Couldn't resist... Is it late in YYZ NOW?!?! :haha::haha:

Ok... with Austin as I briefly mentioned, there are so many decent one stop options a direct YVR would have to compete with: AA via LAX, DFW and PHX; DL via LAX, SEA and SLC; UA via SFO, LAX, DEN, IAH and even ORD; AS via SEA. To get enough loyal frequent fliers out of their programs and get enough bums into a daily CRA to make it work... Asian leveraging would also be up against LAX, SFO and SEA.... well you get the picture! O&D would really have to be more in the 50,000 annual range to consider this I would think. AUS alone, not with SAT.


Oh wow, well it was like 8:30 and I was still at the office, though clearly not working that hard ;)

You're probably right about Austin, still a route I'd love to see. Don't underestimate the allure of a direct to business flyers though... time is money! Especially given how quickly booked up the DFW, DEN and IAH flights seem to get, your only sensible options are SEA, LAX or SFO most of the time, especially last minute which constitutes a lot of business flying.

Wow the YVR news just keeps getting better for 2016.

From 22 June to 30 Sept KE will be flying the 747-8 on the YVR-ICN route

http://airlineroute.net/2016/01/27/ke-s16update2/

So YVR gets both 747-8s from Korean Air, passenger and cargo.

According to koreanair.com config is 6F/48C/314Y - ttl 368 with all their brand new products.

So summer 2016 YVR is getting both passenger super jumbos. The BA 380 and now the KE 748. 748 is longer by about 3.5m.

:D

Just saw this in the Canada section, amazing! pretty surprising too, going from a 777-200 to a 748i is a massive upgauge no?

I wonder how long Asiana will let them have this route to themselves.

the controls on the arm are idiotic

This is a huge pet peeve of mine. Did they never test the product before rolling it out? The amount of times I or my neighbour has turned off my screen, rammed the volume up or called the FA is totally insane.

SFUVancouver
Jan 27, 2016, 11:56 PM
I rarely do this, but may I ask for some assistance finding the end-of-year article about the McArthurGlen Designer Outlet at YVR? I can't find it for the life of me and know that it was linked to on SSP. Does anyone else remember it?

Edit - Found it!

https://www.biv.com/article/2015/11/richmonds-mcarthurglen-mall-named-worlds-best-outl/?utm_source=BIV+Newsletters&utm_campaign=84abf70604-Daily_Tuesday_November_24_201511_24_2015&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_6d3015fdef-84abf70604-210829401

Klazu
Jan 28, 2016, 12:05 AM
This is a huge pet peeve of mine. Did they never test the product before rolling it out? The amount of times I or my neighbour has turned off my screen, rammed the volume up or called the FA is totally insane.

Yeah, definitely a problem on all Air Canada planes with the new cabin (Dreamliners and 777). It does indeed boggle the mind whether they conducted any user testing on that. :rolleyes:

ShawnShank
Jan 28, 2016, 12:10 AM
Just saw this in the Canada section, amazing! pretty surprising too, going from a 777-200 to a 748i is a massive upgauge no?

It is a big upgauge, but if I recall correctly KE has been upgauging to the 744 for the summer for at least a few years now. Now, the some of them are being retired and more routes are switched to the 8I instead

LeftCoaster
Jan 28, 2016, 12:41 AM
Ya I looked at my spreadsheet and it was showing a 747-400, don't know why airlineroute is showing it as a 777-200 unless that is the winter equipment and they are only showing the change from winter/spring 2016 to summer 216 not summer 2015 to summer 2016.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 28, 2016, 2:54 AM
Ya I looked at my spreadsheet and it was showing a 747-400, don't know why airlineroute is showing it as a 777-200 unless that is the winter equipment and they are only showing the change from winter/spring 2016 to summer 216 not summer 2015 to summer 2016.

Every airline loads advance schedules differently. For example, YVR-ICN on KE, the default equipment is the 777-200. Then when they update by season, in this case summer, they would adjust to the planned new equipment. Normally in the summer for KE it's a 744. So airlineroute is showing the actual change based on what the current schedules were showing to the updated one which is now a 748. Sometimes he shows the comparison to the prior same period.

hoboman27
Jan 28, 2016, 9:11 PM
"Air Canada also carrying on business as Air Canada rouge - scheduled international licence between Canada and Taipei"

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/19-a-2016

Possible YVR-TPE on rouge?

Klazu
Jan 28, 2016, 9:16 PM
Possible YVR-TPE on rouge?

I sure hope so! As I was just browsing prices for that route, the current players (Eva Air and China Airlines) seemed rather expensive to me and it's not even the high-season. More competition would be good.

Cage
Jan 28, 2016, 9:57 PM
"Air Canada also carrying on business as Air Canada rouge - scheduled international licence between Canada and Taipei"

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/19-a-2016

Possible YVR-TPE on rouge?

Licence only covers codeshare, not AC operated flights.

Doubtful a rouge 763 could make the flight nonstop and carry full 275 pax load.

The new codeshare application does point to a warming of relations between AC and EVA. Back about 5 years ago it was amazing they were even alliance partners.

LeftCoaster
Jan 28, 2016, 10:04 PM
You sure? TPE is only 9,600km from YVR and AC lists the range at 10,500km and Boeing lists it as 11,000 at MTOW.

Every airline loads advance schedules differently. For example, YVR-ICN on KE, the default equipment is the 777-200. Then when they update by season, in this case summer, they would adjust to the planned new equipment. Normally in the summer for KE it's a 744. So airlineroute is showing the actual change based on what the current schedules were showing to the updated one which is now a 748. Sometimes he shows the comparison to the prior same period.

Ahh thanks for the info, makes sense.

Either way very cool. Doubt there are too many airports out there that see regularily scheduled service of both the A380 and B748i.

Johnny Aussie
Jan 28, 2016, 10:24 PM
Ahh thanks for the info, makes sense.

Either way very cool. Doubt there are too many airports out there that see regularily scheduled service of both the A380 and B748i.

Yes, and with so few 748 operators unlikely there will be many. In PEK a few weeks ago saw a 744 and a 748 right next to each other... Quite the difference when seen up close.

Klazu
Jan 28, 2016, 11:42 PM
In PEK a few weeks ago saw a 744 and a 748 right next to each other... Quite the difference when seen up close.

They have several of those next to each other also on FRA. To be honest, I could only tell the difference from the number of windows in the hump.

I wonder why airlines are not embracing 748 more, considering how popular 747 was and isn't the new model very modern when it comes to fuel consumption etc? Airlines sayd A380 is too large, but then don't embrace the slightly smaller 748? :???:

trofirhen
Jan 28, 2016, 11:54 PM
I wonder why airlines are not embracing 748 more, considering how popular 747 was and isn't the new model very modern when it comes to fuel consumption etc? Airlines sayd A380 is too large, but then don't embrace the slightly smaller 748? :???:
Perhaps they will do so, if Boeing markets the 748 effectively. Right now, everyone seems enthralled with the 789 and the Airbus 350, but this my change over time.

Klazu
Jan 29, 2016, 12:20 AM
Dreamliner has been a success and it is great how quickly it is becoming commong as it is so comfortable to fly, but 748 competes in a totally different market with a capacity of 200 passengers more than a Dreamliner. They shouldn't be eating each others markets and there must a lot of routes that benefit from planes larger than the Dreamliner.

trofirhen
Jan 29, 2016, 12:52 AM
Dreamliner has been a success and it is great how quickly it is becoming commong as it is so comfortable to fly, but 748 competes in a totally different market with a capacity of 200 passengers more than a Dreamliner. They shouldn't be eating each others markets and there must a lot of routes that benefit from planes larger than the Dreamliner.
I wonder if Emirates uses many A350's.

LeftCoaster
Jan 29, 2016, 12:58 AM
I don't think they use many, since they don't own any.

Just a hunch though.

casper
Jan 29, 2016, 1:32 AM
Dreamliner has been a success and it is great how quickly it is becoming commong as it is so comfortable to fly, but 748 competes in a totally different market with a capacity of 200 passengers more than a Dreamliner. They shouldn't be eating each others markets and there must a lot of routes that benefit from planes larger than the Dreamliner.

The 777-300 is the alternative to the 748. Air Canada like most others are going to 10 across economy and getting the number of passengers up to the same numbers as the old 747-400 of years past. I am told the cargo capacity on the 777-300 is also better than the older 747-400.

Klazu
Jan 29, 2016, 1:33 AM
I wonder if Emirates uses many A350's.

They had ordered 70 (!) A350's, but cancelled them all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Airbus_A350_XWB_orders_and_deliveries

I saw my first A350 at HEL over Christmas. Finnair in-flight magazine was also heavily advertizing it, although it seems like exactly the same product as Dreamliner. Too bad they fly them only towards east.