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trofirhen
Mar 5, 2016, 10:55 PM
They start in May with three a day then ramp up to four daily in July with the full summer schedule.........

............................ >>

The 18-19 daily flights is AC only. Add another 11 with Westjet and one daily Sunwing and a couple of weekly Transats.
Hey! that's 30 flights a day pretty much between the two major carriers alone. I wonder what frequency that breaks down to? How many flights per hour. So I'd need the total # of daily YVR operating hours. Anybody? Please.:)

2): Also, do you know where the TWV project is at? There's a website up and running to determine eligibilty, with instructions for both YVR and YYZ, plus legal information
for travellers connecting, .... so is it iminently operational, or what?

Johnny Aussie
Mar 6, 2016, 12:23 AM
Hey! that's 30 flights a day pretty much between the two major carriers alone. I wonder what frequency that breaks down to? How many flights per hour. So I'd need the total # of daily YVR operating hours. Anybody? Please.:)

2): Also, do you know where the TWV project is at? There's a website up and running to determine eligibilty, with instructions for both YVR and YYZ, plus legal information
for travellers connecting, .... so is it iminently operational, or what?

Just go check aircanada.com and westjet.com timetables section to get this info.

They sometimes update at different timelines compared to what I post but you will get a pretty accurate estimate.

Basically with any airline, each airline's website have fairly accurate up to date timetable info. Those that have PDF options are sometimes out of date.

nname
Mar 6, 2016, 7:32 AM
Hey! that's 30 flights a day pretty much between the two major carriers alone. I wonder what frequency that breaks down to? How many flights per hour. So I'd need the total # of daily YVR operating hours. Anybody? Please.:)

Here is the schedule for July 15th (Friday)

12:25am AC1172 320
6:00am AC136 763
6:30am WS700 738
7:00am AC108 320
7:55am AC142 320
8:00am WS702 738
8:30am AC1188 320
9:00am AC34 77L
9:20am WS706 738
9:30am AC116 788
10:30am AC1162 763
11:15am WS710 738
11:45am AC1182 319
12:15pm WS712 736
12:45pm TS963 738
1:00pm AC132 763
1:15pm WS714 738
1:15pm AC1136 77W
2:30pm AC1108 321
2:40pm WS716 738
4:00pm WS718 73G
4:05pm AC100 320
5:00pm AC148 321
5:15pm WS722 73G
5:30pm AC152 321
6:15pm AC1180 320
10:15pm AC156 763
10:45pm WS724 738
11:00pm AC162 77W
11:15pm WG806 738
11:20pm WS730 73G
11:20pm WG808 738


Total: 32 flights
Air Canada 18, Westjet 11, Sunwing 2, Transat 1

excel
Mar 6, 2016, 7:44 AM
Is YVR the most frequent route out of YYZ?

Klazu
Mar 6, 2016, 3:15 PM
I would think so. Interesting how it is busy all day, but then there is a quiet period between 6:15pm and 10:15pm.

Seems that there is also some variation to these flights throughout the year. I will be catching a 10:30pm AC156 in few weeks, but it will be on a 77W instead of 763 indicated on this list. I actually hope it would be the latter plane, as I have not flown a 767 too often and they supposedly have more space than the 77W.

I will be heading down to MIA for ten days and flying out of TPA. My wife will have the chance to try out the Westjet route to MCO around the same time. the flight to MCO is a surprisingly long flight, especially heading back with flight time of 6:33! That must be pretty much the longest trans-continent flight there is!

trofirhen
Mar 6, 2016, 3:45 PM
Is YVR the most frequent route out of YYZ?
I had always thought it woulf be YYZ - YUL. It sure used to be, but that was a long time ago. Still, it would be normal to have a commuter jet service between the two biggest cities, no?

Klazu
Mar 6, 2016, 5:50 PM
It might be more frequent, but I think there are more AC seats flying between Vancouver and Toronto due to bigger planes.

nname
Mar 6, 2016, 8:18 PM
It might be more frequent, but I think there are more AC seats flying between Vancouver and Toronto due to bigger planes.

According to this list (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_busiest_passenger_air_routes#2014), YVR-YYZ ranked 50th in the world in term of seat capacity, and is the route with most seats out of both YVR and YYZ.

casper
Mar 6, 2016, 8:59 PM
I would think so. Interesting how it is busy all day, but then there is a quiet period between 6:15pm and 10:15pm.

Seems that there is also some variation to these flights throughout the year. I will be catching a 10:30pm AC156 in few weeks, but it will be on a 77W instead of 763 indicated on this list. I actually hope it would be the latter plane, as I have not flown a 767 too often and they supposedly have more space than the 77W.



The gap between 6:15pm and 10:15 pm makes perfect sense when you look at arrival time.

6:00pm departure from YVR arrives in YYZ at 1:00 am.

while the

10:00pm departure arriving in YYZ at 6:00 am in the morning.

There is not much point arriving into Toronto between 1:00 am and 6:00 am. The airport may be open but it will be difficult getting a cab or using public transit.

Cage
Mar 7, 2016, 12:25 AM
The gap between 6:15pm and 10:15 pm makes perfect sense when you look at arrival time.

6:00pm departure from YVR arrives in YYZ at 1:00 am.

while the

10:00pm departure arriving in YYZ at 6:00 am in the morning.

There is not much point arriving into Toronto between 1:00 am and 6:00 am. The airport may be open but it will be difficult getting a cab or using public transit.

There is an overnight curfew in place at YYZ. Check this out:

Is Toronto Pearson closed at night?

Toronto Pearson is open 24/7/365. Our night operations are a mix of cargo and passenger services.

The airport manages a Night Flight Restriction Program to manage the impact of aircraft noise during restricted hours (12:30-6:30 a.m.). Transport Canada has imposed annual limits on the total number of night flights at Toronto Pearson to ensure that flights during the restricted period remain proportionate to overall traffic levels.

The GTAA uses a night preferential runway system from midnight to 6:30 a.m. using flight paths that impact the fewest people. The order of priority for preferential runways is: Runway 23, 33R and 24R for departures, and Runway 05, 15L and 06L for arrivals.

Source: http://www.torontopearson.com/en/noisequestionsandanswers/#

trofirhen
Mar 7, 2016, 1:59 AM
It might be more frequent, but I think there are more AC seats flying between Vancouver and Toronto due to bigger planes.
That surely must be the case, because ... there 252,000 +/- pax YYZ>< Vancouver at 50th place ....
According to this list (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_busiest_passenger_air_routes#2014), YVR-YYZ ranked 50th in the world in term of seat capacity
and is the route with more seats than YYZ-YUL.
yet also, there are 106 flights a day YYZ><YUL !!!

What kind of planes does Porter use, anyway? Ahh, Dash 8; rather like YVR>< SEA or PDX. That sort of explains itself. (I wonder how travellers like using Billy Bishop)

§ (also, regarding city pair volume in sheer # of pax & flights, check out Sydney><Melbourne;)) Quite something.

nname
Mar 7, 2016, 4:32 AM
yet also, there are 106 flights a day YYZ><YUL !!!

YVR-YYZ almost made the list actually.

Here are the number for July 15th:


YUL-YYZ: 31 flights
YYZ-YUL: 31 flights
YUL-YTZ: 29 flights
YTZ-YUL: 28 flights
------
Total YUL <> YYZ: 62 flights
Total YUL <> YTZ: 57 flights
Total Montreal <> Toronto: 119 flights


YVR-YYZ: 32 flights
YYZ-YVR: 30 flights
------
Total Vancouver <> Toronto: 62 flights


YYC-YYZ: 27 flights
YYZ-YYC: 27 flights
------
Total Calgary <> Toronto: 54 flights


YYC-YVR: 27 flights
YVR-YYC: 27 flights
------
Total Calgary <> Vancouver: 54 flights


YYC-YEG: 21 flights
YEG-YYC: 22 flights
------
Total Calgary <> Edmonton: 43 flights



However, I'm sure Vancouver <> Victoria would be much much more than these if all the seaplanes are included :D

LeftCoaster
Mar 7, 2016, 9:33 PM
Just a mini update.

For the 777 lovers out there...

AC has just updated YVR-YYZ for the summer scheds by adding back one of the 77Ws early afternoon. So there will be two 77Ws, one 77L, one 788 and four 763s per day for wide body action.

The daily tally on YVR-YYZ also goes back to 18-19 per day.

Fantastic news, the more widebodies on this route the better.

At 10 per day Vancouver gets more domestic wide-bodies than almost any airport gets period.

YVR-YYZ = 8
YVR-YUL = 2

Just to put this in persepctive, YYC, the 3rd busiest airport in Canada, sees 10 widebodies per day total, 8 international and 2 domestic.

YVR sees on average 50 if I count correctly.

35 per day internationally
1 per day to EWR
1.5 per day to JFK
1 per week to HNL/OGG
1 per day to LAS
8 per day to YYZ
2 per day to YUL

And I would imagine certain days in summer see far more than 35 with some seeing less, but that's way too much work to figure out.

trofirhen
Mar 7, 2016, 10:22 PM
Interesting statistics, thanks to both of you.
Leftcoaster mentioned that YYC is the third busiest airport in Canada, by logic making YUL the fourth. I wonder why this is so? Perhaps less domestic and trandsborder, more international out of YUL? Anybody? :???:

LeftCoaster
Mar 7, 2016, 10:31 PM
Lots of reasons, weak domestic at YUL primarily.

YUL should pass YYC again this year for 3rd busiest, given the downturn in YYC... it's just that YUL still hasn't released their December 15 numbers for some bizarre reason.

s211
Mar 7, 2016, 10:51 PM
Lots of reasons, weak domestic at YUL primarily.

YUL should pass YYC again this year for 3rd busiest, given the downturn in YYC... it's just that YUL still hasn't released their December 15 numbers for some bizarre reason.

They need to add a "winning conditions" adjustment factor.

casper
Mar 8, 2016, 3:56 AM
Interesting statistics, thanks to both of you.
Leftcoaster mentioned that YYC is the third busiest airport in Canada, by logic making YUL the fourth. I wonder why this is so? Perhaps less domestic and trandsborder, more international out of YUL? Anybody? :???:

Key reasons:
- Via Rail between downtown Montreal and Ottawa and Toronto
- Amtrack railway between Montreal and New York
- Two hour drive to Ottawa,
- Lots of other major business centres within a two/three hour drive.

When you compare that to YYC every major business centre near Calgary is something like a 4 to 5 hour drive. As someone who use to live in Saskatoon I know I transited through YYC more times than I care to remember to get to Europe, the states or the rest of Canada. I think the same holds for much of the AB and SK. From YXE it was almost always a transit throught Toronto, Winnipeg, Minneapolis or Calgary. In many cases Calgary offered the shortest route.

All the said, Montreal and Calgary are very close to each other in numbers and this year it could well be the other way given the downturn in Alberta.

Klazu
Mar 8, 2016, 4:59 AM
According to this list (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_busiest_passenger_air_routes#2014), YVR-YYZ ranked 50th in the world in term of seat capacity, and is the route with most seats out of both YVR and YYZ.

It's quite interesting how many domestic flights Japan can support even though all the Shinkansen traffic between many of those cities. Some of them are just far enough (like Sapporo and Fukuoka) that even bullet train is not competitive enough anymore.

It's also interesting how well the route between Madrid and Barcelona (which used to be one of the most frequent flight routes, I believe) has kept its numbers despite a 350km/h high-speed trail starting operating between the two cities few years ago.

I think most of the traffic between Sydney and Melbourne could also be replaced with a bullet train that could traverse the route in two hours if ever built. Same with Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paolo.

zahav
Mar 8, 2016, 6:44 AM
Fantastic news, the more widebodies on this route the better.

At 10 per day Vancouver gets more domestic wide-bodies than almost any airport gets period.

YVR-YYZ = 8
YVR-YUL = 2

Just to put this in persepctive, YYC, the 3rd busiest airport in Canada, sees 10 widebodies per day total, 8 international and 2 domestic.

YVR sees on average 47 if I count correctly.

35 per day internationally
1 per day to EWR
1 per day to LAS
8 per day to YYZ
2 per day to YUL

And I would imagine certain days in summer see far more than 35 with some seeing less, but that's way too much work to figure out.

It definitely depends on the day for international, but 35 is about right for average. Did you include 1 per day Cathay to JFK in your international count? If not, add that in. There's also 1 per day to Honolulu, and usually 1 to Maui as well (not fully daily)

LeftCoaster
Mar 8, 2016, 7:03 PM
It definitely depends on the day for international, but 35 is about right for average. Did you include 1 per day Cathay to JFK in your international count? If not, add that in. There's also 1 per day to Honolulu, and usually 1 to Maui as well (not fully daily)

Good point, I forgot about both JFK widebodies (Cathay and Philippines). I've edited my original post to include them.

LeftCoaster
Mar 8, 2016, 7:11 PM
Just saw this on airline route, is it a reduction from double daily to 11x per week?

Beijing – Vancouver CA997/998 operates 4 weekly (Day x124) with expanded operational period compared to 2015: 01JUN16 – 30SEP16
http://airlineroute.net/2016/03/08/ca-s16update2/

Johnny Aussie
Mar 8, 2016, 9:29 PM
Just saw this on airline route, is it a reduction from double daily to 11x per week?

Beijing – Vancouver CA997/998 operates 4 weekly (Day x124) with expanded operational period compared to 2015: 01JUN16 – 30SEP16
http://airlineroute.net/2016/03/08/ca-s16update2/

This is another route with frequency adjustments throughout the year. Always hard to predict what's going to happen.

Last summer it went from daily to 11 weekly from mid June - early September only.

Then a further adjustment it went from 11 weekly to double daily from about mid August til the end of the summer schedules.

The first boost to 11 weekly is starting earlier this summer, so will they increase back to double daily??? Don't know. Always hard to predict lists of flights based on past cycles. Last year's double daily schedule was released in April.

LeftCoaster
Mar 8, 2016, 9:41 PM
Ahh I see, so the early June is actually a slight capacity bump over last year, assuming they still go double daily mid August.

I've been showing double daily in my charts assuming it was the norm, I didn't know it was such a recent and short upgrade.

Since they seem to be going to 11x daily earlier than last year, it's probably a good sign for a resumption of double daily service I'd imagine.

Johnny Aussie
Mar 8, 2016, 10:29 PM
Since they seem to be going to 11x daily earlier than last year, it's probably a good sign for a resumption of double daily service I'd imagine.

I think they are going to implement the Beijing Shuttle.

11 daily every hour on the hour from 0600-1400 and then two late night ones at 0100 and 0200..... Rumoured that a few of those may be on the 747-800! :runaway:

LeftCoaster
Mar 8, 2016, 11:00 PM
Haha, well the way Air China seems to want to funnel people through PEK you might not be that far off. Fares are stupid cheap through Beijing these days, I can't imagine they are making great yields.

Klazu
Mar 8, 2016, 11:23 PM
Fares are stupid cheap through Beijing these days, I can't imagine they are making great yields.

Hmmm, I have recently been paying special attention to flight prices to Asia and from YVR Shanghai comes very often the cheapest with China Eastern. I haven't really seen any deals that would have made Air China the cheapest through Beijing in the past 6 months.

Also China Southern was having some sales before Christmas through Guangzhou, but not recently. It has really been China Eastern discounting many routes out of YVR, which is a bit strange as they fly a small plane (A330)on this route and the connections for their YVR flights are horrible (most requiring a layover of 7-16 hours and many times change of airport to SAN). :(

Reviews of China Southern are also pretty poor, so not sure if the prices are tempting enough even when discounted heavily. Anyways, just something I have noticed.

vanlaw
Mar 8, 2016, 11:27 PM
Hmmm, I have recently been paying special attention to flight prices to Asia and from YVR Shanghai comes very often the cheapest with China Eastern. I haven't really seen any deals that would have made Air China the cheapest through Beijing in the past 6 months.

Also China Southern was having some sales before Christmas through Guangzhou, but not recently. It has really been China Eastern discounting many routes out of YVR, which is a bit strange as they fly a small plane (A330)on this route and the connections for their YVR flights are horrible (most requiring a layover of 7-16 hours and many times change of airport to SAN). :(

Reviews of China Southern are also pretty poor, so not sure if the prices are tempting enough even when discounted heavily. Anyways, just something I have noticed.

The cheapest fares I've noticed in the past month to many destinations in Asia for later this year or early 2017 have been on EVA one stop through TPE. I haven't flown with them, but the get pretty solid reviews.

Klazu
Mar 9, 2016, 1:17 AM
Hmm, what search engine are you using? I have (unfortunately) never seen them being cheapest on Google Flights to many destination in South East Asia. Maybe Google's algorithm has decided that we deserve different prices. So unfair. :(

vanlaw
Mar 9, 2016, 1:31 AM
Hmm, what search engine are you using? I have (unfortunately) never seen them being cheapest on Google Flights to many destination in South East Asia. Maybe Google's algorithm has decided that we deserve different prices. So unfair. :(

I always start with Google's ITA Matrix. Although you cant book from it, I've usually been able to find the fare on another site after. In the initial search I choose 'search calendar of lowest fares" to search for a full month, and put a range for "length of stay", say 14-17 nights.

LeftCoaster
Mar 9, 2016, 9:29 PM
Delta surprisingly posted a couple of cuts at SEA today.

One of the 2x daily Seattle to Amsterdam is going from a 332 to a 764.
Seattle to Seoul is being downgraded significantly from an A333 to a B763
Seattle to Shanghai is being downgraded from an A332 to a 763

These nearly offset previously announced upgrades on SEA-HKG and SEA-NRT.

I'm a little surprised by this given the strong year last year at SEA.

Johnny Aussie
Mar 10, 2016, 12:50 AM
Delta surprisingly posted a couple of cuts at SEA today.

One of the 2x daily Seattle to Amsterdam is going from a 332 to a 764.
Seattle to Seoul is being downgraded significantly from an A333 to a B763
Seattle to Shanghai is being downgraded from an A332 to a 763

These nearly offset previously announced upgrades on SEA-HKG and SEA-NRT.

I'm a little surprised by this given the strong year last year at SEA.

I think the consensus is they are definitely posting strong increases in passenger numbers but it really has to be taken into context. Looking at some of the fares out of SEA indicates they may be struggling to fill their planes. Yields being trashed? Who knows. But there are a significant number of flights being replaced by 767-300s for sure.

If you had a base of say 3200 passengers on a route then add 1000 seats but only fill 650 of the new seats, total traffic will still increase 20%.

Same scenario with airports showing large gains in international traffic. The conclusion is made there must be a huge untapped market of international travel. But if that is off a very small base, add a few additional weekly sunflights and voila! Massive % gains and bragging rights... LOL

casper
Mar 10, 2016, 2:35 AM
I think the consensus is they are definitely posting strong increases in passenger numbers but it really has to be taken into context. Looking at some of the fares out of SEA indicates they may be struggling to fill their planes. Yields being trashed? Who knows. But there are a significant number of flights being replaced by 767-300s for sure.

If you had a base of say 3200 passengers on a route then add 1000 seats but only fill 650 of the new seats, total traffic will still increase 20%.

Same scenario with airports showing large gains in international traffic. The conclusion is made there must be a huge untapped market of international travel. But if that is off a very small base, add a few additional weekly sunflights and voila! Massive % gains and bragging rights... LOL

At the case time Delta is trying to turn Seattle into a hub (or gateway or whatever it wants to a call it). There should be a good a percentage of transfer passengers. Perhaps it is not panning out as they expected.

I would think Seattle geographically would make a better connecting airport that LAX of San Francisco. Perhaps not.

Johnny Aussie
Mar 10, 2016, 4:12 AM
At the case time Delta is trying to turn Seattle into a hub (or gateway or whatever it wants to a call it). There should be a good a percentage of transfer passengers. Perhaps it is not panning out as they expected.

I would think Seattle geographically would make a better connecting airport that LAX of San Francisco. Perhaps not.

That's why they are building up so much domestic traffic into SEA as well. Although, new route announcements seem to be waning.

The trick with developing hubs in the US for the big three, not unlike anywhere else in the world really, is to ensure they don't damage existing hubs to a point where overall diminishing returns occur. DL as we all know have significant ops in Detroit, MSP, Atlanta, LAX, SLC etc. By re-routing pax through SEA, instead of DTW or SLC for example, requires some decent yield/revenue management to get the best overall outcome.

But yeah, obviously they aren't growing capacity to Asia or Europe. In July: ICN, PEK, PVG and LHR on 763s, AMS and HKG on 332s, AMS and CDG on 333s and NRT on 777s. KIX and HND are long gone too.

trofirhen
Mar 10, 2016, 4:38 AM
That's why they are building up so much domestic traffic into SEA as well. Although, new route announcements seem to be waning.

The trick with developing hubs in the US for the big three, not unlike anywhere else in the world really, is to ensure they don't damage existing hubs to a point where overall diminishing returns occur. DL as we all know have significant ops in Detroit, MSP, Atlanta, LAX, SLC etc. By re-routing pax through SEA, instead of DTW or SLC for example, requires some decent yield/revenue management to get the best overall outcome.

But yeah, obviously they aren't growing capacity to Asia or Europe. In July: ICN, PEK, PVG and LHR on 763s, AMS and HKG on 332s, AMS and CDG on 333s and NRT on 777s. KIX and HND are long gone too.
How does SEA compare to YVR in
-total overseas flights
-total overseas pax

Also, is Seattle ramping up, trying to compete with the YVR Pacific Gateway role, or not? In the USA, it has to compete with SFO and LAX, which are mega-destinations.

moosejaw
Mar 10, 2016, 4:48 PM
How does SEA compare to YVR in
-total overseas flights
-total overseas pax

Also, is Seattle ramping up, trying to compete with the YVR Pacific Gateway role, or not? In the USA, it has to compete with SFO and LAX, which are mega-destinations.

Seattle doesnt have much going for it in terms of international flights or passengers. I did a study a few years back studying the airport stats published by the airports themselves. My findings were that almost 50% of YVRs pax are international travellers (of course including the states). Sea Tac by comparison were only 20% IIRC

YVR and Sea Tac have almost the same amount of gates (with YVR edging out SEA)

SEA moves over 40M pax each year vs YVRs 20M however SEA has 20% more aircraft movements than YVR

In terms of AirCraft Cargo, Again 20% more than YVR.

This was a while ago when i did this comparison (regards to movements and cargo stats)

YVR is one of the few airports in NA where a good chunk of it is international PAX. Its up there with LAX, SFO, Logan, MIA, JFK.

SeaTac international destinations include Tokyo, Beijing, Seoul, Shanghai, Mazatlan, Cabo, London, Rejkavik, Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam and Dubai. YVR flies already to most of those places in addition to Auckland, Sydney, Mexcio CIty, Rome, Manchester, and all those cities in China i cannot pronounce. YVR is definitely an international gateway compared to SEA TAC

Miami like Vancouver has a proportionate amount of international passengers. Miami is a lot bigger than Vancouver overall but because its pretty much the gateway to latin america it s makeup of international pax is similar. I believe MIA overtook JFK a few years back with its share of international passengers.

Klazu
Mar 10, 2016, 9:42 PM
Boundary Bay Airport (YDT) in Delta is Canada's 7th busiest airport in terms of airplane movements - even ahead of Ottawa's YOW and many other! :)

http://vuosiamaailmalla.fi/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/boundary_bay_airport2.jpg

http://vuosiamaailmalla.fi/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/boundary_bay_airport1.jpg

http://vuosiamaailmalla.fi/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/boundary_bay_airport8.jpg

http://vuosiamaailmalla.fi/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/boundary_bay_airport3.jpg

http://vuosiamaailmalla.fi/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/boundary_bay_airport9.jpg

Not everything out of YDT is only general avatiation, though. There are also few scheduled routes to Victoria and Nanaimo.

http://vuosiamaailmalla.fi/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/boundary_bay_airport4.jpg

http://vuosiamaailmalla.fi/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/boundary_bay_airport7.jpg

The terminal building is actually verynew and modern for such a small airport!

http://vuosiamaailmalla.fi/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/boundary_bay_airport6.jpg

http://vuosiamaailmalla.fi/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/boundary_bay_airport5.jpg

twoNeurons
Mar 10, 2016, 9:48 PM
Seattle doesnt have much going for it in terms of international flights or passengers. I did a study a few years back studying the airport stats published by the airports themselves. My findings were that almost 50% of YVRs pax are international travellers (of course including the states). Sea Tac by comparison were only 20% IIRC

Seattle competes directly with LAX/SFO more than YVR, imo. FOR MOST Americans, SEA/SFO/LAX makes little difference in terms of time-savings over the Pacific. SEA will save 500–700 miles from NYC

For Torontite Canadians, however, a diversion to SFO/LAX to get to Asia adds a lot more (~1000 less than LAX) and YVR saves the hassle of going through an American airport. YYC - YVR - NRT is even more dramatic, with YVR being ~1400 miles less than LAX.


YVR is one of the few airports in NA where a good chunk of it is international PAX. Its up there with LAX, SFO, Logan, MIA, JFK.

I am not sure you can rank it with LAX unless you exclude US destinations. I wouldn't really consider the USA international, I'd consider it "USA"

But as for traffic. It makes sense given Vancouver's high Asian demographic that trips to places outside of NA are higher than Seattle. Lots of business & family ties across the Pacific.


Miami like Vancouver has a proportionate amount of international passengers. Miami is a lot bigger than Vancouver overall but because its pretty much the gateway to latin america it s makeup of international pax is similar. I believe MIA overtook JFK a few years back with its share of international passengers.

So... could YVR overtake YYZ one day? Only if we get an airline HQ in Western Canada. WestJet? :D

Johnny Aussie
Mar 10, 2016, 9:57 PM
I am not sure you can rank it with LAX unless you exclude US destinations. I wouldn't really consider the USA international, I'd consider it "USA"

But as for traffic. It makes sense given Vancouver's high Asian demographic that trips to places outside of NA are higher than Seattle. Lots of business & family ties across the Pacific.

So... could YVR overtake YYZ one day? Only if we get an airline HQ in Western Canada. WestJet? :D

First point: That is the problem I have highlighted on numerous occasions. Canada is the only country that separates Transborder from Other International. So comparing country to country is tough. LAX would have a fair amount of Canadian and Mexican traffic included in their international figures. Should those be removed to compare? PDX is another good example of this. Probably about 1/2 of their international traffic would be transborder (Canada/Mexico). So how to compare?

Second point: Yup, this is what makes YVR so attractive for Asian flights and it doesn't appear the attraction is slowing down.

Third point: Even with an airline based in YVR, I would say YYZ will remain supreme ruler of the airport pax crown for as long as I can see into the future. Toronto is just too large a market with its large business base, population, location, diverse demography etc etc.... Let's just accept YVR is doing OK for its size, location and diverse demography etc... YVR will continue to prosper.

****

Here is SEA's list of overseas destinations and by carrier:

ICN(DL,KE,OZ); NRT(DL,NH); PEK(DL,HU); PVG(DL,HU); LHR(DL,BA); FRA(LH,DE); DXB(EK); TPE(BR); KEF(FI); AMS(DL); CDG(DL); HKG(DL)

So 12 destinations served by 11 carriers including Delta.

The only destination not served by YVR is DXB. The only carriers not served by YVR are EK, OZ and HU.

Klazu
Mar 10, 2016, 10:12 PM
Checking systems down YVR-wide today for three hours. Huge line-ups in all terminals. The issue has been solved now.

SFUVancouver
Mar 11, 2016, 12:13 AM
Has anyone travelled recently on a long-haul Air Canada 777-200LR?

I've got a 14 hour 50 minute flight coming up tomorrow night to Sydney (in a middle seat, I regret to add) and I'm expecting that it will be on one of Air Canada's "upgraded" aircraft that have the high density layout. New seats are nice, but the loss of more than an inch and a half of seat width, plus leg room, is going to be a real pain, I expect.

Johnny Aussie
Mar 11, 2016, 1:02 AM
Has anyone travelled recently on a long-haul Air Canada 777-200LR?

I've got a 14 hour 50 minute flight coming up tomorrow night to Sydney (in a middle seat, I regret to add) and I'm expecting that it will be on one of Air Canada's "upgraded" aircraft that have the high density layout. New seats are nice, but the loss of more than an inch and a half of seat width, plus leg room, is going to be a real pain, I expect.

Check in early and other seats should open up.

Enjoy your flight and welcome to the land downunder in advance!

***edit: just checked the seat map for AC33 departing Friday night (?) looks like a non-reconfigured plane so only 9 abreast vs 10 abreast. One thing for sure.... It is chockers!

Klazu
Mar 11, 2016, 1:26 AM
I thought all the high density planes are 777-300ER models on routes to Hong Kong, Frankfurt and London. Not to Sydney. :???:

I flew the 200LR to Santiago in November and it was the definitely the most comfortable of the three 777 models Air Canada has. There was more space, but there is some annoying plate under the seats that your toes hit. That was the only downside.

You must be cranking up some serious air milage with all your traveling! Doesn't upper Altitude levels permit selecting an Exit seat without any extra charge?

Johnny Aussie
Mar 11, 2016, 2:28 AM
I thought all the high density planes are 777-300ER models on routes to Hong Kong, Frankfurt and London. Not to Sydney. :???:

All 777s are being reconfigured including the 777-200LRs. They go to 300 seats from 270.

SFUVancouver
Mar 12, 2016, 12:13 AM
Check in early and other seats should open up.

Enjoy your flight and welcome to the land downunder in advance!

***edit: just checked the seat map for AC33 departing Friday night (?) looks like a non-reconfigured plane so only 9 abreast vs 10 abreast. One thing for sure.... It is chockers!

9 abreast sounds like as best a deal as I'm going to get. Thanks for the kind welcome!

whatnext
Mar 12, 2016, 12:33 AM
I would think so. Interesting how it is busy all day, but then there is a quiet period between 6:15pm and 10:15pm.

Seems that there is also some variation to these flights throughout the year. I will be catching a 10:30pm AC156 in few weeks, but it will be on a 77W instead of 763 indicated on this list. I actually hope it would be the latter plane, as I have not flown a 767 too often and they supposedly have more space than the 77W.

I will be heading down to MIA for ten days and flying out of TPA. My wife will have the chance to try out the Westjet route to MCO around the same time. the flight to MCO is a surprisingly long flight, especially heading back with flight time of 6:33! That must be pretty much the longest trans-continent flight there is!

I find AC 763 more comfortable than either their 777 or 787. The seat width is better and the 2-3-2 layout doesn't feel like a sardine can.

Johnny Aussie
Mar 12, 2016, 4:23 AM
Looks like Air Transat is taking over all of the summer flying that was done by Enerjet last summer. The Transat 737-800s are much larger than Enerjet's 737-700s.

The 738s will operate:

YVR-YYZ 2x per week
YVR-YYC-YYZ 1x per week
YVR-CUN 1x per week
YVR-PVR 1x per week

Air Transat will operate a total of 22 weekly flights out of YVR this summer - up from 15 last summer (20 if you include the Enerjet flights).

stiffdeadman
Mar 13, 2016, 10:17 PM
Looks like American is cutting YVR-LAX to once daily come October. Early morning departure has been axed leaving just mid-afternoon.

Express691
Mar 13, 2016, 11:18 PM
From CPTDB Discussion:

Would you agree that the MacArthur Outlets and its parking lot should have been swapped? People are complaining of the walking distance between the skytrain station and the outlets and want a bus route connecting the 2 places.

trofirhen
Mar 13, 2016, 11:30 PM
Looks like American is cutting YVR-LAX to once daily come October. Early morning departure has been axed leaving just mid-afternoon.
I wonder if another airline will pick up the slack, or is there simply not the demand?

Klazu
Mar 14, 2016, 12:31 AM
Would you agree that the MacArthur Outlets and its parking lot should have been swapped? People are complaining of the walking distance between the skytrain station and the outlets and want a bus route connecting the 2 places.

I remember there having been some discussion that a future expansion will expand the outlet towards west and closer to the station, but I don't know when this would be, especially since there is a piece of land to be built also next to the Arthur Lange Bridge.

Anyone know what the expansion schedule is? I have the impression that the outlet has been a success, so one would think they would keep building on top of it... :???:

Johnny Aussie
Mar 14, 2016, 12:31 AM
Looks like American is cutting YVR-LAX to once daily come October. Early morning departure has been axed leaving just mid-afternoon.

Same with PHX. However both set to resume double daily in mid December.

AA has made a lot of cuts to Western Canada.... some appear to be permanent.

Last winter AA did the same thing with LAX reduced YVR to less than double daily for several weeks on and off.

The arvo flight to LAX is a prime connector to the Aussie flights on QF and AA so unlikely that one would be touched. The morning flight to LAX would be more O&D.

With AS exiting the route things appear to be right sizing a bit with AC, WS, DL, AA and UA on the route still.

Don't forget how seasonal YVR is in mid Autumn early Winter.

October/November/early December.... Deadsville!

Johnny Aussie
Mar 14, 2016, 1:21 AM
While UA seems to continually strip away flights from Western Canada.... UA seems to keep adding flights @ YVR.

The following are the latest additions:

EWR - adding a red eye on days 6 and 7. Departs YVR 2015 for a very early arrival 0445 the next day.

SFO - adding a 6th flight on Sundays.

DEN - all mainline on Saturdays (the second of the three daily flights is Express but on Saturdays will now be mainline).

ORD - adding a 5th flight on Sundays.

So overall not massive additions but definitely bucking the trend what's happening on the other side of the Rockies.

UA summer ops at YVR now at:

16 daily Mondays - Fridays
17 flights on Saturdays
19 flights on Sundays

Klazu
Mar 14, 2016, 4:02 AM
It has now happened: Emirates 777 on YVR today. The Seattle-bound flight had to land in Vancouver due to the strong winds.

moosejaw
Mar 14, 2016, 2:41 PM
It has now happened: Emirates 777 on YVR today. The Seattle-bound flight had to land in Vancouver due to the strong winds.

Nice!

trofirhen
Mar 14, 2016, 4:49 PM
It has now happened: Emirates 777 on YVR today. The Seattle-bound flight had to land in Vancouver due to the strong winds.
I wish YVR had a Gulf carrier. QATAR is now part of OneWorld, so maybe they'd play by the rules and be less of a potential menace than "bad boy" Emirates.

Valley_Refugee
Mar 14, 2016, 5:32 PM
WestJet just announced 4x weekly non-stop service to Halifax this summer, late June to early September.

http://aviationtribune.com/airlines/north-america/westjet-announces-new-service-halifax-vancouver-winnipeg/

Looks like:

DEP YVR 21:00 - ARR YHZ 06:34+1 x247
DEP YHZ 07:25 - ARR YVR 09:46 x135

It's only 5:34 gate to gate on the way there, 6:20 on the way back - not so bad for coast to coast.

Johnny Aussie
Mar 14, 2016, 5:56 PM
WestJet just announced 4x weekly non-stop service to Halifax this summer, late June to early September.

Another good add.

Westjet's press release on this ----> http://westjet2.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1114

Hmmm... Westjet now calling both YVR and YHZ "hubs" :P

twoNeurons
Mar 14, 2016, 8:44 PM
Another good add.

Westjet's press release on this ----> http://westjet2.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1114

Hmmm... Westjet now calling both YVR and YHZ "hubs" :P
:tup:

Hot Rod
Mar 14, 2016, 8:45 PM
It does appear that Vancouver (at least) is a hub since the flights start and end in YVR and the Halifax arrivals would make for easy connections. I don't think anyone could argue against that, especially when you consider YVR has more flights than Halifax and Winnipeg combined and to more destinations than those cities combined.

However, I'd also argue that Halifax also appears to be a hub op since the Winnipeg flight arrives in time for Halifax connections. I don't know where else they fly from the fax but it does appear the Peg flight makes it in-time for morning connections.

Johnny Aussie
Mar 14, 2016, 8:54 PM
It does appear that Vancouver (at least) is a hub since the flights start and end in YVR and the Halifax arrivals would make for easy connections. I don't think anyone could argue against that, especially when you consider YVR has more flights than Halifax and Winnipeg combined and to more destinations than those cities combined.

Well... With the add of YHZ and the recent announcement about YXU and YHM, Westjet will be flying to 30 destinations non-stop this summer from YVR.

YVR has really solidified itself as Westjet's third largest base.

MalcolmTucker
Mar 14, 2016, 9:12 PM
YHZ will be a great hub for Trans-Atlantic Ops with the new 737 Max

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gcmap?RANGE=3515nm%40yhz&RANGE-STYLE=best
Source: http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=&RANGE=3515nm%40yhz&PATH-COLOR=&PATH-UNITS=mi&PATH-MINIMUM=&SPEED-GROUND=&SPEED-UNITS=kts&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STYLE=

Hot Rod
Mar 14, 2016, 9:37 PM
Yes, Halifax for Trans-Atlantic and Vancouver for Trans-Pacific. I LOVE IT!

Just think:

Vancouver-Nagoya
Vancouver-Harbin
Vancouver-Kaohsiung
Vancouver-Vladivostok

In addition to the "usual players" likely routes of Beijing, Seoul, Tokyo-Narita, Osaka-Kansai, Taipei, and perhaps Hong Kong - all within the range of 767 for WestJet. Maybe WestJet could also do some NA/Crossborder to coveted routes we all want:

Vancouver-Havana
Vancouver-Miami
Vancouver-Boston
Vancouver-New York JFK (assuming Cathay/Philippines no longer does it)
Vancouver-Baltimore (BWI)
Vancouver-Philadelphia
Vancouver-Guadalajara->Lima
Vancouver-Monterrey (sexy city like Vancouver)->Santiago

all within the reach of 767 and/or the MAX I believe. Yes I am dreaming, but just think if WJ really did make Vancouver a major hub and International gateway - these cities would be doable and likely profitable since the routes I highlighted are not currently served by anyone.

LeftCoaster
Mar 14, 2016, 9:51 PM
The only destination not served by YVR is DXB. The only carriers not served by YVR are EK, OZ and HU.

OZ... I wouldn't be surprised if that changed soon.

Would be nice to have a gulf carrier too, Ethiad has a beautiful livery, would love to see them send a daily A350. Doubt it will happen from a regulatory standpoint, but I bet Ethiad could make it work via connections to the subcontinent and Africa.

LeftCoaster
Mar 14, 2016, 9:56 PM
How does SEA compare to YVR in
-total overseas flights
-total overseas pax

Also, is Seattle ramping up, trying to compete with the YVR Pacific Gateway role, or not? In the USA, it has to compete with SFO and LAX, which are mega-destinations.

I was wondering this after I posted the flight cuts at SEA so I put them in my lil chart...

http://i.imgur.com/uB2IREr.png

Just for your memories, here's YVR...

http://i.imgur.com/1xPaFIy.png

It's really not even close. YVR sees about 120 more intl' flights per week on much larger planes which translates to about 40,000 more seats per week.

In fact YVRs international traffic is more than double Seattle's.

trofirhen
Mar 14, 2016, 10:07 PM
Thanks Leftcoaster!! Now all we need is a Gulf carrrier (someone mentioned ETIHAD) and we're smokin'!!!!! Let's get to it and relegate SEA to a secondary overseas gateway :D

whatnext
Mar 14, 2016, 10:30 PM
I remember there having been some discussion that a future expansion will expand the outlet towards west and closer to the station, but I don't know when this would be, especially since there is a piece of land to be built also next to the Arthur Lange Bridge.

Anyone know what the expansion schedule is? I have the impression that the outlet has been a success, so one would think they would keep building on top of it... :???:

I though the expansion was on the cleared land to the East, as that side of the mall looks "unfinished" ie. the walkway just ends in hoarding.

The parkign lot rarely looks close to full. I can't believe YVR panicked after the opening week and added that additional smoothed gravel lot to the south. I wonder how much that cost?

Hot Rod
Mar 14, 2016, 10:38 PM
I was thinking Etihad should be something Vancouver tries to grab, also.

Hot Rod
Mar 14, 2016, 10:44 PM
SEA already is a 2ndary Overseas gateway. Also, the airline numbers (per Alliance) in the chart for SeaTac are incorrect.

Also of interest is when you look at Intercontinental per destination:

SEA:

Asia
Beijing (Delta, Hainan)
Dubai (Eremites)*
Hong Kong (Delta)
Seoul (Asiana*, Delta, Korean)
Shanghai (Delta, Hainan)
Taipei (EVA)
Tokyo-Narita (ANA, Delta)


Europe
Amsterdam (Delta)
Frankfurt (Condor, Lufthansa)
London (British, Delta)
Paris (Delta)
Reykjavik (Iceland)

VANCOUVER:

Asia
Beijing (Air Canada, Air China**)
Chengdu (Sichuan**)**
Chongqing (Tianjin Airlines**)**
Guangzhou (China Southern**)**
Hong Kong (Air Canada, Cathay Pacific**)
Huangzhou (Beijing Capital Airlines**)**
Kunming (China Eastern**)**
Manila (Philippine**)**
Osaka (Air Canada)**
Qingdao (Beijing Capital Airlines**)**
Seoul (Air Canada, Korean)
Shanghai (Air Canada, China Eastern**)
Shenyang (Sichuan**)**
Taipei (China Airlines**, EVA)
Tianjin (Hainan, Tianjin**)**
Tokyo (-Haneda [ANA]**, -Narita [Air Canada, Japan Airlines**])
Xiamen (Xiamen Airlines**)**


Australasia
Auckland (Air New Zealand**)**
Brisbane (Air Canada)**
Sydney (Air Canada, Qantas**)**

Europe
Amsterdam (KLM**)
Dublin (Air Canada)**
Frankfurt (Condor, Lufthansa, )
Glasgow (Air Transat**)**
London (-Gatwick [Air Transat**, WestJet]**, -Heathrow [Air Canada, British Airways])
Manchester (Air Transat**)**
Munich (Lufthansa)**
Paris (Air France**, Air Transat**)
Reykjavik (Iceland)
Rome (Air Transat**)**
Zurich (Edelweiss**)**

Exclusives:

SEATTLE (CITY* 1-Dubai) [AIRLINE* 2-Asiana, Emirates]

VANCOUVER (CITY** [ASIA/PAC 14], [EU 6] ) (AIRLINE** [ASIA/PAC 11], [EU 4]) (AIRPORT** 2-Haneda, Gatwick)

Seattle-Tacoma serves one city (Dubai) that Vancouver doesn't and has two airlines (Asiana, Emirates) that Vancouver doesn't [although, I think Asiana is coming].

Vancouver serves 14 Asia Pacific cities and 6 EU cities, and 2 airports (Haneda, Gatwick) that Seattle doesn't. Vancouver has 11 Asia Pacific airlines and 4 EU airlines that Seattle doesn't.

Clearly, Vancouver is the largest Intercontinental Market in the Pacific Northwest, by far. I didn't include Mexico City in my analysis because it is on North America continent; but if you did count then Vancouver would win with one city served on two airlines.

Now let's look at TRUE International: Seattle serves Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver (all cities which Vancouver serves). Vancouver serves (LA, SF, LAS, SAN, IAD, ORD, DFW, IAH, SBF**, JFK**, EWR**, HNL, Maui, SLC, ATL, DTW, MSP, PHX, PDX, ANC, MEX**). Although Seattle serves many MORE cities within the US Domestic, Vancouver is the bigger Transborder route airport (including many cities** Seattle does not serve) and therefore when you consider all International - Vancouver is by far the biggest.

Very interesting - now if YVR had a hub and a mini-hub with Domestic routing like SEA does with Alaska and Delta, then YVR's true impact could be seen. YVR DOES have a hub in Air Canada and a mini-hub in WestJet, but Canada Domestic just doesn't have as many routes as US Domestic; even considering SEA's relative low level service Domestic (mostly on AS and mostly on West Coast). This can be seen by the Vancouver Domestic 10M vs SEA Domestic of 30M+ for 2015. Even if you consider both cities likely double count at least half of the Domestic (due to connections), SEA would still be ahead with around 10-15M O/D and YVR around 6M O/D. Vancouver can't change its Domestic Canada so it is probably stuck under 15M pax per year even with growth from WJ. But Vancouver can add more Intercontinental (Asia, Pacific, ME, and SA) to perhaps double that figure to around 10M and Transborder/North America to 10M, giving YVR around 35M pax per year as a ceiling.

Another interesting point is Vancouver's Europe offering. I always assumed Seattle was bigger or the same size, I had no idea YVR leaves SEA in the dust there too. YVR isn't just Asia and Pacific, it is EU as well (and I hope it continues to grow - Copenhagen, Oslo, Barcelona, Lisbon, Prague, Istambul, Moscow, maybe Warsaw - all come to mind).

trofirhen
Mar 14, 2016, 11:02 PM
SEA already is a 2ndary Overseas gateway. Also, the airline numbers (per Alliance) in the chart for SeaTac are incorrect.
What should they be?

twoNeurons
Mar 14, 2016, 11:46 PM
Yes, Halifax for Trans-Atlantic and Vancouver for Trans-Pacific. I LOVE IT!

Just think:

Vancouver-Nagoya
Vancouver-Harbin
Vancouver-Kaohsiung
Vancouver-Vladivostok


The 737MAX is in range of none of those ciites. It would have to be a 767. The Pacific ocean is big. Really big. LHR is closer than Asia is to YVR.

In addition to the "usual players" likely routes of Beijing, Seoul, Tokyo-Narita, Osaka-Kansai, Taipei, and perhaps Hong Kong - all within the range of 767 for WestJet. Maybe WestJet could also do some NA/Crossborder to coveted routes we all want:

Vancouver-Havana
Vancouver-Miami
Vancouver-Boston
Vancouver-New York JFK (assuming Cathay/Philippines no longer does it)
Vancouver-Baltimore (BWI)
Vancouver-Philadelphia
Vancouver-Guadalajara->Lima
Vancouver-Monterrey (sexy city like Vancouver)->Santiago

all within the reach of 767 and/or the MAX I believe. Yes I am dreaming, but just think if WJ really did make Vancouver a major hub and International gateway - these cities would be doable and likely profitable since the routes I highlighted are not currently served by anyone.
Yes, all those cities should be in range of YVR.

Assuming a 3515nm range:
http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gcmap?RANGE=3515nm%40yvr&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=navy

Klazu
Mar 14, 2016, 11:54 PM
I though the expansion was on the cleared land to the East, as that side of the mall looks "unfinished" ie. the walkway just ends in hoarding.

Yeah, that side is likely to be the next expansion, but I recall the long-term plan calling also for another major expansion to the west, over some of the parking lot. That's what I was referring to, but I might be mistaken.

Johnny Aussie
Mar 15, 2016, 12:20 AM
What should they be?

Star - 4
OW - 1
ST - 2
None - 4

The Pacific ocean is big. Really big. LHR is closer than Asia is to YVR.

NRT is closer to YVR than LHR.

I am sure NGO is on rouge's radar.

I wouldn't be surprised if another Mexican carrier comes in and restarts GDL and/or MTY.

Let's see what happens in the next few years with further China / other Asia expansion. Also perhaps a new transborder route or two.

LeftCoaster
Mar 15, 2016, 12:40 AM
I was thinking Etihad should be something Vancouver tries to grab, also.

Johnny, sorry to always rely on your expertise, but do you know anything about the regulations surrounding the other ME3 carriers? I know Emirates was not granted additional slots but do any of them have any available capacity or routes to gaining additional slots? Both Montreal and Toronto have ME3 service, and I'd imagine they could make Vancouver work as well, given the large Persian and Indian diaspora here.

SEA already is a 2ndary Overseas gateway. Also, the airline numbers (per Alliance) in the chart for SeaTac are incorrect.

Ya I missed that update when I copied it over from the other tab. I've updated but wont bother reposting.

Yeah, that side is likely to be the next expansion, but I recall the long-term plan calling also for another major expansion to the west, over some of the parking lot. That's what I was referring to, but I might be mistaken.

I believe you are correct, however I'm not sure we'll see either expansion soon. There are still a lot of vacant units in the initial buildout.



I am sure NGO is on rouge's radar.

I wouldn't be surprised if another Mexican carrier comes in and restarts GDL and/or MTY.

Let's see what happens in the next few years with further China / other Asia expansion. Also perhaps a new transborder route or two.

Additional Mexican carriers would be interesting, I'm assuming Volaris or Interjet?

Interesting anecdote, I was playing around with flights from China (PEK, PVG) to Mexico City, and YVR was the most cost effective and quickest transit point almost every time I searched. Certainly bodes well for the first steps of our gateway to Latin America plan.

trofirhen
Mar 15, 2016, 12:43 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if another Mexican carrier comes in and restarts GDL and/or MTY.

For real ??? ... !! That'd be fantastic; Monterrey and Guadalajara, in addition to Mexico City ... en route to Lima and Santiago !!!

Johnny Aussie
Mar 15, 2016, 12:45 AM
Johnny, sorry to always rely on your expertise, but do you know anything about the regulations surrounding the other ME3 carriers? I know Emirates was not granted additional slots but do any of them have any available capacity or routes to gaining additional slots? Both Montreal and Toronto have ME3 service, and I'd imagine they could make Vancouver work as well, given the large Persian and Indian diaspora here.

Additional Mexican carriers would be interesting, I'm assuming Volaris or Interjet?

Both EK and EY are restricted by the UAE bilaterals. Tapped out. AC wouldn't bother with YVR-DXB.

QR also restricted with Qatar bilaterals - tapped out between pax and cargo.

One day it may just happen...until then don't give up on your hopes and dreams.

Volaris, Interjet or VivaLasVegasAerobus

nname
Mar 15, 2016, 1:09 AM
Both EK and EY are restricted by the UAE bilaterals. Tapped out. AC wouldn't bother with YVR-DXB.

AC is tapped out too. The bilateral is restricted to up to 3x weekly per airlines, and up to 6x weekly per country.

AC already used up their 3x weekly on YYZ-DXB. The remaining 3x weekly for Canada will remain unused unless WS, TS, or WG find interest in DXB...

Johnny Aussie
Mar 15, 2016, 1:19 AM
AC is tapped out too. The bilateral is restricted to up to 3x weekly per airlines, and up to 6x weekly per country.

AC already used up their 3x weekly on YYZ-DXB. The remaining 3x weekly for Canada will remain unused unless WS, TS, or WG find interest in DXB...

Are your sure about the 3x per week restriction by airline?

I thought it was 6x per week by country.

EK stuffed up by launching YYZ with only 3 weekly quickly realising they could have maxed out at 6. Only to be beaten to the punch by EY. Hence why they were so aggressive trying to get more frequencies.

Pretty sure AC could add 3 more per week. They are conservatively starting with 3x per week to test the market. I could be wrong. Regardless I highly doubt we would ever see AC on YVR-DXB. Need more feed on the DXB side (which AC wouldn't have) than YVR.

nname
Mar 15, 2016, 1:23 AM
Are your sure about the 3x per week restriction by airline?

I thought it was 6x per week by country.

EK stuffed up by launching YYZ with only 3 weekly quickly realising they could have maxed out at 6. Only to be beaten to the punch by EY. Hence why they were so aggressive trying to get more frequencies.

Pretty sure AC could add 3 more per week. They are conservatively starting with 3x per week to test the market. I could be wrong. Regardless I highly doubt we would ever see AC on YVR-DXB. Need more feed on the DXB side (which AC wouldn't have) than YVR.

for direct own aircraft services, up to a maximum of four flights per week in each direction without restriction as to size of aircraft effective immediately, five flights per week effective June 1, 2001 and six flights per week effective June 1, 2003. Requests for seasonal increases in frequency shall be given sympathetic consideration consistent with paragraph 5 of Article XI. The operation of a frequency beyond three flights per week by any one designated airline shall be subject to the approval of the aeronautical authorities of both Contracting Parties.

I'm sure UAE won't approve if AC ever request to fly more than 3x weekly unless Canada give them more than the 6x weekly they had :D

trofirhen
Mar 15, 2016, 1:40 AM
Does YVR really need a Gulf carrier anyway?
Yes, I know the route from SEA ->< DBX is profitable, but Dubai is EXACTLY on the opposite longitude from YVR (and SEA)!!
I think Turkish (*Alliance) would be equally good, if not better. IST is a great connection point for the Mideast and Africa, and the Turkey-Canada bilateral seems looser than the UAE bilateral.
And IST is a great connection to the Balkans, Iran, Caucasus and Eastern Mediterranean regions, where a lot of immigrants here seem to be coming from these days.

nname
Mar 15, 2016, 1:48 AM
And reading the bilaterals, I noticed something for India:

From India:
Route 1: [any points in India] - [point(s) in Europe or Asia west of India] - YYZ and/or YUL - [point(s) in USA]
Route 2: [any points in India] - [point(s) in Asia Pacific east of India] - YVR or YEG

From Canada:
Route 1: [any points in Canada] - [point(s) in Europe or Asia west of India] - BOM or DEL - [point(s) in SE Asia]
Route 2: [any points in Canada] - [point(s) in Asia Pacific east of India] - DEL or CCU

Capacity limit: 2100 seats/week on route 1, 2x weekly on route 2

Since AC already picked YYZ-DEL for route 1, any chance of direct flight to India from YVR would be:
- a tag on to AC's YYZ-DEL route (route 1)
- a 2x weekly route from AC and/or AI/9W (route 2)

Pretty sure none of those would be happening :yuck:

casper
Mar 15, 2016, 2:47 AM
Does YVR really need a Gulf carrier anyway?
Yes, I know the route from SEA ->< DBX is profitable, but Dubai is EXACTLY on the opposite longitude from YVR (and SEA)!!
I think Turkish (*Alliance) would be equally good, if not better. IST is a great connection point for the Mideast and Africa, and the Turkey-Canada bilateral seems looser than the UAE bilateral.
And IST is a great connection to the Balkans, Iran, Caucasus and Eastern Mediterranean regions, where a lot of immigrants here seem to be coming from these days.

I would be surprised if it a Gulf carrier has any benefit for Vancouver. It would likely have a bigger negative impact. The Dubai flight takes passengers off of BA, CX and many of the Chinese airlines.

Take Seattle and SAS, they have a long relationship going back decades. All gone.

trofirhen
Mar 15, 2016, 2:54 AM
I would be surprised if it a Gulf carrier has any benefit for Vancouver. It would likely have a bigger negative impact. The Dubai flight takes passengers off of BA, CX and many of the Chinese airlines.

Take Seattle and SAS, they have a long relationship going back decades. All gone.
Yes,I agree that a Gulf carrier would not do YVR much good, although I think TURKISH would serve it well.
And yes, SAS dropping SEA was a shock, esp given the high Scandinavian population of Seattle that went by SAS. Icelandic seems to have stepped in to fill the void.

Hot Rod
Mar 15, 2016, 7:05 AM
Mostly, I wish Vancouver can fill up it's Asia slate and mature it's European offerings.

For Asia, my wish list is:

Chongqing: China Southern 777-200LR (I know Tianjin wants the route, but I hope China Southern gets it once CKG T3A opens and Chongqing likely becomes its #2 hub, no fuel stop necessary)
Fuji: Air Fuji 747
Kaohsiung: EVA Airlines A330
Nagoya: ANA A330 + Air Canada 767
New Deli: Air India 777-200LR
Melbourne: Qantas 787
Osaka: (Daily Air Canada 767) + ANA 787
Thailand: Bangkok on Thai Airlines 777
Singapore: Singapore Airlines A350 (don't have to be daily, any return would be huge)
Vietnam: Saigon on Vietnam Airlines 777

I think this would basically complete our Asia Pacific conquest, making YVR #1 gateway into North America.
DREAM/DROOLING

LeftCoaster
Mar 15, 2016, 6:31 PM
I assume by Fuji you mean Fiji? They don't run 747s anymore, down to all A330 for long haul. Would certifiably be a nice tail to see at YVR though.

Kaohsiung is doubtful due to the restrictive bilateral. Any capacity increases are likely to go to TPE to YVR and YYZ.

Tianjin's stop on their Chongqing route is not a fuel stop as far as I know, the A330-200 they propose to fly the route can easily make the 10,000km journey. I think the stop is a passenger pickup. I'd rather see another tail in Tianjin and see China Southern go double daily to Guangzhou.

Air India 787 would be perfect for the YVR route. Really wish someone would launch this one.

SE Asian routes would all be great, but outside of SIN are such low yield runs I don't know how they would be profitable.

LeftCoaster
Mar 15, 2016, 6:34 PM
I would be surprised if it a Gulf carrier has any benefit for Vancouver.

While I do think you're right that ME3 usually have a negative impact on other airlines, YVR-Asia prices are already so low I doubt a ME3s presence would depress prices that much. And if seats/week were limited I think something like a daily Ethiad 787-8 or 787-9 wouldn't add a catastrophic amount of capacity.

LeftCoaster
Mar 15, 2016, 6:39 PM
One day it may just happen...until then don't give up on your hopes and dreams.

I think I'll be able to hold on, it's just that the new Ehtiad livery is so pretty!

Also, related to this topic, here's a pic of the Emirates 777 on it's unscheduled visit YVR yesterday

http://i.imgur.com/w9hoxls.jpg?1
bombardierboy on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/64424538@N06/25680675571/

Volaris, Interjet or VivaLasVegasAerobus

Haha didn't know about that last ones rebrand ;)

Would love to see any of those tails at YVR, and by the looks of it they've all got decent equipment to make the run work.

nname
Mar 15, 2016, 6:50 PM
Air India 787 would be perfect for the YVR route. Really wish someone would launch this one.

Again, restricted bilateral. They could run them daily to YYZ or YUL (Atlantic route), but only allowed 2x weekly to YVR (Pacific route).

I highly doubt AI is in a financial state to expand their network, as I read somewhere before that they are losing money on all but one of their long-haul route. They were already cannibalizing one of their *new* 787s for parts...


Kaohsiung is doubtful due to the restrictive bilateral. Any capacity increases are likely to go to TPE to YVR and YYZ.

Only chance of that happening is from AC as both BR and CI are not particularly interested in long-haul from KHH (the furthest they fly from there is CTS [Sapporo]?)

Speaking of which, maybe YVR-CTS on AC Rouge would be a good route to have too...

vanlaw
Mar 15, 2016, 7:13 PM
I would be surprised if it a Gulf carrier has any benefit for Vancouver. It would likely have a bigger negative impact. The Dubai flight takes passengers off of BA, CX and many of the Chinese airlines.

Take Seattle and SAS, they have a long relationship going back decades. All gone.

SAS ceased Seattle service in 2009 I think. Emirates launched Seattle service in 2012. Emirates was not a factor of the cancellation of the SAS run.

Klazu
Mar 15, 2016, 9:05 PM
Speaking of which, maybe YVR-CTS on AC Rouge would be a good route to have too...

I was recently browsing flights to Sapporo and was surprised on how many 777s and 747s the Japanese airlines are flying on their Tokyo/Osaka - Sapporo routes. There must be a lot of passanger potential in there, even though it is only a metropolitan area of 2 million people.

Cage
Mar 15, 2016, 9:40 PM
SAS ceased Seattle service in 2009 I think. Emirates launched Seattle service in 2012. Emirates was not a factor of the cancellation of the SAS run.

The ouster of SAS at SEA was the launch of CPH-SFO service. SFO launched in late 2008 and SEA was dropped less than one year later.

twoNeurons
Mar 15, 2016, 9:44 PM
I was recently browsing flights to Sapporo and was surprised on how many 777s and 747s the Japanese airlines are flying on their Tokyo/Osaka - Sapporo routes. There must be a lot of passenger potential in there, even though it is only a metropolitan area of 2 million people.

It's no wonder. It's a long 9½ hour train ride with 2 transfers from Tokyo to Sapporo... and Japan likes to channel all its international airline traffic through NRT or HND. Budget airlines are centralizing around KIX in Osaka and Osaka is pretty much the gateway to West Japan.

Saying that, there's considerable excitement over the first bullet train to reach Hokkaido. It will shave 2 hours and 1 transfer off that trip. Still a long trip at 7½ hours, mind you... but it's nice to have options.

Distance from Tokyo – Sapporo is about the same as Vancouver – Edmonton.

nname
Mar 15, 2016, 9:44 PM
I was recently browsing flights to Sapporo and was surprised on how many 777s and 747s the Japanese airlines are flying on their Tokyo/Osaka - Sapporo routes. There must be a lot of passanger potential in there, even though it is only a metropolitan area of 2 million people.

After all, Sapporo is the only metro area over 1M population that is not served by Shinkansen, and will not be until at least 2030.

Something I found interesting that neither JL nor NH have any interest in running any international route out of Sapporo. Not even to Korea, China, or Taiwan. They rather route all air traffic via Tokyo or Osaka despite its the closest major airport to North America. All international routes at the airport was by foreign airlines, and pretty much all route goes south and west, with the exception of Hawaiian. Would it be a good business case if AC fly there and route all the North America traffic via YVR? :D (NH may not like it though...)

twoNeurons
Mar 15, 2016, 10:37 PM
I would be surprised if it a Gulf carrier has any benefit for Vancouver. It would likely have a bigger negative impact. The Dubai flight takes passengers off of BA, CX and many of the Chinese airlines.

Take Seattle and SAS, they have a long relationship going back decades. All gone.

But a Gulf carrier would give the real-estate media something more interesting to chew on. At least they could alternate memes between Chinese billionaires and UAE Sheiks as the boogeymen on the front page of who they think is driving real estate prices this week.

/sarcasm

Cage
Mar 15, 2016, 10:47 PM
Mostly, I wish Vancouver can fill up it's Asia slate and mature it's European offerings.

For Asia, my wish list is:

Chongqing: China Southern 777-200LR (I know Tianjin wants the route, but I hope China Southern gets it once CKG T3A opens and Chongqing likely becomes its #2 hub, no fuel stop necessary)
Nadi: Air Fiji 747
Kaohsiung: EVA Airlines A330
Nagoya: ANA A330 + Air Canada 767
New Delhi: Air India 777-200LR
Melbourne: Qantas 787
Osaka: (Daily Air Canada 767) + ANA 787
Bangkok: Thai Airlines 777
Singapore: Singapore Airlines A350 (don't have to be daily, any return would be huge)
Ho Chi Min City: Vietnam Airlines 777

I think this would basically complete our Asia Pacific conquest, making YVR #1 gateway into North America.
DREAM/DROOLING

First off, I fixed your list for spelling and other differences that are out of favour (e.g. Saigon has not been used to describe the major Vietnamese city in over 30 years, despite the IATA airport code being SGN).

NAN is unlikely due to the recent Typhoon that wiped out everything from a tourist perspective. Unfortunately it will be years before tourist traffic recovers.

NGO is half way between KIX and TYO, actually its so close to KIX that it would compete very well. However its possible for WS to go to NGO and leave KIX to ACr.

MEL would occur once QF gets SYD-YVR daily year round. Actually the better option is for AC to run YVR-MEL less than daily, especially if AC can kick QF off the SYD run.

SIN is a possibility through AC, especially if they have continued success with their international growth strategy.

BKK and SGN are too thin and too far to make the operation profitable, plus these routes would complete with SIN, and SIN has the best chance of survival.

I like your thinking on CGK and offer my own list of next cities for YVR:
- XIY to daily.
- CTU on CA.
- HGH on AC
- NKG on MU
- CAN on AC
- CSX on CZ
Catch my drift as to where YVR must get new services in order to compete with LAX and SFO.

twoNeurons
Mar 15, 2016, 10:52 PM
NRT is closer to YVR than LHR.

You got me, but not by much! But I'd equate LHR to HND... in which case... oh crap. LHR is still further by 15 miles. Gah... I concede. :D

If only I could use London's Luton airport, that airport is 5 miles closer (http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=HND+-+YVR+-+LTN) than HND.

MOST of Asia is further than Most of Europe. Still, the point was that the Pacific is really big. It still is surprising to think we cross Canada and the Atlantic and it equals just getting to Asia.

Cage
Mar 15, 2016, 11:00 PM
While I do think you're right that ME3 usually have a negative impact on other airlines, YVR-Asia prices are already so low I doubt a ME3s presence would depress prices that much. And if seats/week were limited I think something like a daily Ethiad 787-8 or 787-9 wouldn't add a catastrophic amount of capacity.

The catastrophic capacity impact comes from the ME3 decision to accept nothing less than full open skies prior to starting new services or expanding services in existing countries.

LeftCoaster
Mar 15, 2016, 11:37 PM
The catastrophic capacity impact comes from the ME3 decision to accept nothing less than full open skies prior to starting new services or expanding services in existing countries.

How did we end up with the current situation of 14x into the Emirates and 3x into Qatar? Was that a previous deal before ME3 decided to force countries into full open skies?

trofirhen
Mar 15, 2016, 11:46 PM
The catastrophic capacity impact comes from the ME3 decision to accept nothing less than full open skies prior to starting new services or expanding services in existing countries.
Thanks, Cage. I seem to recall reading recently that there's a problem in the USA with Emirates demanding rights to AMS-JFK, LHR-JFK, CDG-ATL, and such, (as hpothetical examples) operating on the very premise you stated: that they treat the world as an Open Skies market.
That could, would and seems to have them poised to "cannibalize" traffic that would normally be flown on LH, BA, AF, KLM, and AC metal, and that would include YVR. Better to keep them out, I think, and keep our other friends flying here, and our roster of foreign tails at the max.

LeftCoaster
Mar 15, 2016, 11:56 PM
F
Catch my drift as to where YVR must get new services in order to compete with LAX and SFO.

I think your drift is for the most part correct, but I do think there is some untapped demand in the developed countries of Asia, South Korea and Taiwan in particular.

I could see Asiana get into the ICN fray and Taiwan/Canada to expand their bilateral to push China Airlines and Eva daily and allow AC to put some PAX through YYZ/YVR as well.

LeftCoaster
Mar 16, 2016, 12:22 AM
Again, restricted bilateral. They could run them daily to YYZ or YUL (Atlantic route), but only allowed 2x weekly to YVR (Pacific route).

I highly doubt AI is in a financial state to expand their network, as I read somewhere before that they are losing money on all but one of their long-haul route. They were already cannibalizing one of their *new* 787s for parts...


That's a very strange bilateral, I wonder what exactly it is protecting by allowing only flights to once side of the country.