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nname
Mar 16, 2016, 12:47 AM
That's a very strange bilateral, I wonder what exactly it is protecting by allowing only flights to once side of the country.

Each side would allow 2 routes, first route is limited by 2100 seats/week, second route only allowed 2x weekly.

If stopover were to be considered, points on the Atlantic side is allowed for first route, Pacific for second route.

India picked DEL-YUL-YYZ for their first route, leaving only the 2nd route for YVR or YEG
AC picked YYZ-DEL for their first route, leaving only the 2nd route for YVR or YUL

AC had the right for the 2nd route for a couple of decades but choose not to operate. They only got the right for first route after Canada3000 went under.

trofirhen
Mar 16, 2016, 12:55 AM
Each side would allow 2 routes, first route is limited by 2100 seats/week, second route only allowed 2x weekly.

If stopover were to be considered, points on the Atlantic side is allowed for first route, Pacific for second route.

India picked DEL-YUL-YYZ for their first route, leaving only the 2nd route for YVR or YEG
AC picked YYZ-DEL for their first route, leaving only the 2nd route for YVR or YUL

AC had the right for the 2nd route for a couple of decades but choose not to operate. They only got the right for first route after Canada3000 went under.
IMO, strangely tight and restrictive. Too bad India and Canada can't negotiate some kind of "more open" skies accord, and let the numbers increase as with Canada & Australia.

Cage
Mar 16, 2016, 1:01 AM
How did we end up with the current situation of 14x into the Emirates and 3x into Qatar? Was that a previous deal before ME3 decided to force countries into full open skies?

In the case of the UAE, the agreement for 1 daily by a UAE airline and 1 daily by a Canadian airline was indeed the legacy air agreement that predates the rapid expansion of EK and ET.

For Qatar, the Canadian government of the day was under a lot of pressure to open up traffic rights to the ME3. In this case, both the Canadian and Qatar governments were willing to severely limit capacity on the bilateral.

Thanks, Cage.

Your welcome.

That's a very strange bilateral, I wonder what exactly it is protecting by allowing only flights to once side of the country.
Nname is referencing the old bilateral. The new bilateral was signed in 2005 in the dieing days of the Martin Liberal government.

new bilateral presser is available here: http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=156789

As to why the bilateral is so strange, the answer related to 1980s available equipment and economic ties. There was no equipment to allow for nonstop services. Further the equipment available for one stop services required fifth freedom rights to make the route viable. Therefore a very restrictive agreement was reached to allow AC or AI to fly across the Atlantic as an extension of the UK and select other European traffic rights. CP had no desire to service India through the Pacific and did not want AI to take passengers from either HKG, NRT, or ICN. At some point the Canadian government threw India a bone and allowed for 2x weekly flights across the Pacific.

Finally (and this gets really strange to wrap your head around) back in the AC vs CP days, Transport Canada policy was "Divide the World". AC got TransAt services (with the exception of AMS) and CP got TransPac. The World was divided and India became a TransAt destination rather than TransPac because services were traditionally conducted with a European intermediary stopover.

Cage
Mar 16, 2016, 3:10 AM
IMO, strangely tight and restrictive. Too bad India and Canada can't negotiate some kind of "more open" skies accord, and let the numbers increase as with Canada & Australia.

The new bilateral allows for 35 weekly frequencies between the two countries. Also YvR is included as a Canadian gateway in addition to YYZ and YUL.

In this case, the restrictive govt policy is an Indian requirement and not Camadian. The Indians are so protectionist they are actively inhibiting international air trade with many countries. For years the Indians did not allow A38 services into the country to block out EK. However this also blocked out LH, AF, SQ, and a few others from deploying the best aircraft for the market.

Johnny Aussie
Mar 16, 2016, 3:17 AM
Even if Canada-India had a completely unrestricted open-skies (sounds a bit redundant but some open skies agreements do have slight restrictions) this does not change the economics of a route.

Based on what Cage has posted above with the updated bilateral there is nothing stopping any Indian carrier or Air Canada from starting YVR - DEL right now.

We have, like many other topics, discussed this over and over...

YVR-India (DEL) is a massively VFR route. Seasonal as well. There are already so many one stop options to India (DEL). My last flights on Air China to / from PEK were at least 50% Indian passengers most likely transferring to/from DEL. Any nonstop flight offered would have to be competitive enough to draw pax away from the likes of CA, CI, CX, MU etc etc.

So yes, there is a huge YVR-DEL market, but is it economically viable to have a nonstop flight?

As the Indian population continues to grow, yes, one day even the VFR market may be large enough.

nname
Mar 16, 2016, 6:35 AM
Speaking of India.. AC is increasing YYZ-DEL to daily this winter... Maybe if there is still enough demand, they could throw a 3x weekly YVR-DEL (like what they did with Dublin this summer :D)

Johnny Aussie
Mar 16, 2016, 7:44 AM
Speaking of India.. AC is increasing YYZ-DEL to daily this winter... Maybe if there is still enough demand, they could throw a 3x weekly YVR-DEL (like what they did with Dublin this summer :D)

Makes sense right? Toronto's South Asian population is about 3x that of Vancouver's. Plus they can feed the YYZ-DEL route with AC's massive network @ YYZ.

As I stated above, Vancouver's South Asian population is large... but it's still only about a third of Toronto's. Vancouver's is also over 3x that of Calgary's which has the next largest South Asian community in Canada (slightly larger than Montreal's). So even using YVR as some sort of Western hub to feed a DEL route would pale in comparison to YYZ's market for this service. There are some significant Indian populations down the West Coast as well but even AI now flies nonstop from SFO.

Hmmmmmm... SFO. Here's an idea... SFO-DEL isn't daily so how about increasing SFO-DEL to daily and have say maybe three flights a week go via YVR. Don't know of 5th freedom capabilities but.... anyway.. Just a thought. AI being Star Alliance would help... codeshare AC and UA as well.

As for DUB, that is an ideal rouge route. Perhaps DEL would be better suited to a rouge type operation. However, rouge doesn't have the equipment to make that long leg.

Hot Rod
Mar 16, 2016, 8:56 AM
or 3 days DEL-YVR and 4 days DEL-SFO. :)

Share the love, since Vancouver and San Fran are children of the same mother, different daddies.

LeftCoaster
Mar 16, 2016, 6:06 PM
Even if Canada-India had a completely unrestricted open-skies (sounds a bit redundant but some open skies agreements do have slight restrictions) this does not change the economics of a route.

Based on what Cage has posted above with the updated bilateral there is nothing stopping any Indian carrier or Air Canada from starting YVR - DEL right now.

We have, like many other topics, discussed this over and over...

YVR-India (DEL) is a massively VFR route. Seasonal as well. There are already so many one stop options to India (DEL). My last flights on Air China to / from PEK were at least 50% Indian passengers most likely transferring to/from DEL. Any nonstop flight offered would have to be competitive enough to draw pax away from the likes of CA, CI, CX, MU etc etc.

So yes, there is a huge YVR-DEL market, but is it economically viable to have a nonstop flight?

As the Indian population continues to grow, yes, one day even the VFR market may be large enough.

I would imagine that the VFR market here in Toronto still dominates the market, yet they manage to make it work. Toronto may be a big business city but its connections mainly go south to the US and Latin America and east to the UK, not much with India at all.

According to this air access analysis: http://culture.alberta.ca/tourism/programs-and-services/air-access/pdf/AlbertaAirAccessQualityStudyFinal.pdf the inbound traffic to Toronto from DEL is only double that of YVR. The rest of India is a different story but as far as the direct flight is concerned, it's not a huge discrepancy. certainly not enough that one needs a daily flight on a 787-9 and the other can't even support 3x per week on a 787-8.

Anyway, just my $0.02. Thanks for the info on the updated bilaterals Cage and Johnny, that 2 route one didn't make any sense to me so glad they updated it to let the market decide.

nname
Mar 16, 2016, 6:35 PM
Hmmmmmm... SFO. Here's an idea... SFO-DEL isn't daily so how about increasing SFO-DEL to daily and have say maybe three flights a week go via YVR. Don't know of 5th freedom capabilities but.... anyway.. Just a thought. AI being Star Alliance would help... codeshare AC and UA as well.

Or maybe AC could target the tech sector for SJC-DEL traffic. Since there could probably never be a direct flight, for those who want to avoid travel all the way to SFO, YVR, SEA, and ANC would be the only one-stop choices without involving a big detour. This could very well feed into the new YVR-SJC flight starting this summer.

LeftCoaster
Mar 16, 2016, 6:46 PM
Not sure if it could ever work via 5th freedoms or customer desire for a stop in YVR, but the route from California to DEL is perfect:

http://i.imgur.com/vdlzlTn.gif
http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=LAX-DEL&MS=wls&MX=540x540&PM=*

nname
Mar 16, 2016, 10:04 PM
It has now happened: Emirates 777 on YVR today. The Seattle-bound flight had to land in Vancouver due to the strong winds.

Reading about this on Airliners... I would be a bit scared to fly with them if I know the captain had declared a MAYDAY and there were only 19min of fuel left when the plane landed at YVR (after only one missed approach at SEA and a short diversion to YVR).

Johnny Aussie
Mar 16, 2016, 11:25 PM
According to this air access analysis: http://culture.alberta.ca/tourism/programs-and-services/air-access/pdf/AlbertaAirAccessQualityStudyFinal.pdf the inbound traffic to Toronto from DEL is only double that of YVR. The rest of India is a different story but as far as the direct flight is concerned, it's not a huge discrepancy. certainly not enough that one needs a daily flight on a 787-9 and the other can't even support 3x per week on a 787-8.

Anyway, just my $0.02. Thanks for the info on the updated bilaterals Cage and Johnny, that 2 route one didn't make any sense to me so glad they updated it to let the market decide.

Yes, but O&D consists of inbound and outbound. So YVR may attract more visitors per capita but total O&D to/from YYZ is close to 3X that of YVR. And yes YVR would be more DEL-centric than YYZ which would have a more diversified traffic pattern to India. Also YYZ has the advantage of being a much larger business centre so I would guess more higher yielding Pax than YVR. YYZ Is also better located to capture a better share of the huge diaspora also located in the US north East.

trofirhen
Mar 16, 2016, 11:39 PM
Yes, but O&D consists of inbound and outbound. So YVR may attract more visitors per capita but total O&D to/from YYZ is close to 3X that of YVR. And yes YVR would be more DEL-centric than YYZ which would have a more diversified traffic pattern to India. Also YYZ has the advantage of being a much larger business centre so I would guess more higher yielding Pax than YVR. YYZ Is also better located to capture a better share of the huge diaspora also located in the US north East.
A tough reality. Let's hope that somebody does the LAX - DEL route with a YVR stopover, as mentioned several posts back.

Klazu
Mar 16, 2016, 11:41 PM
Reading about this on Airliners... I would be a bit scared to fly with them if I know the captain had declared a MAYDAY and there were only 19min of fuel left when the plane landed at YVR (after only one missed approach at SEA and a short diversion to YVR).

That's indeed worrying! Could you land a 777 on BLI or is YVR the only option to SEA? Isn't PDX closer to SEA than YVR?

I am curious what happens in this kind of diversions. Does the airline have to pay for people's overnight accommodation? How about those that don't have Canadian visas? Are they granted some sort of temporary permit to enter the country? And finally, does the airline fly you to your destination without extra cost when the weather permits it?

I have never had that happen to me, so I am curious.

nname
Mar 17, 2016, 12:14 AM
That's indeed worrying! Could you land a 777 on BLI or is YVR the only option to SEA? Isn't PDX closer to SEA than YVR?

They could land and BLI, but probably would have big problem when trying to fly it out and the aircraft would certainly be stuck there for days or weeks. Abbotsford and Victoria airport were offered as landing locations while the plane was enroute to YVR because they were closer. Even though both airports have longer runways than BLI, neither would support flying the 777 out with passengers.

YVR is slightly closer to SEA than PDX by a few miles. The thing is, with so little fuel left, the pilots basically have at most 2 attempts to land at YVR. Had the weather been as bad as SEA and they missed the first approach, they would have to immediately turn around and make the second attempt, and the aircraft would not have enough fuel to climb back up if the second attempt failed.

casper
Mar 17, 2016, 4:09 AM
They could land and BLI, but probably would have big problem when trying to fly it out and the aircraft would certainly be stuck there for days or weeks. Abbotsford and Victoria airport were offered as landing locations while the plane was enroute to YVR because they were closer. Even though both airports have longer runways than BLI, neither would support flying the 777 out with passengers.

YVR is slightly closer to SEA than PDX by a few miles. The thing is, with so little fuel left, the pilots basically have at most 2 attempts to land at YVR. Had the weather been as bad as SEA and they missed the first approach, they would have to immediately turn around and make the second attempt, and the aircraft would not have enough fuel to climb back up if the second attempt failed.

It almost never happens now (I believe due to upgrades in Vancouver) but Abbotsford use to handle YVR diversion of wide bodies in the past. Victoria in years past handled Wardair 747 flights. That said, the needs for this specific 777 with its combination of weight and passangers is something I don't have the background to comment on.

As for diversions to weird airports. It has happen to me the odd time. Thunderstorms around MSP and ending up in a small airport in the Midwest. Flying into Ottawa and getting diverted to Montreal. Flying into Toronto and getting diverted to Ottawa. Flying to Winnipeg and ending up in Saskatoon. It is a weird feeling to be on an aircraft when the pilot aborts at the last minute and pulls up. They usually go somewhere else fill up with gas and try again when things clear up. They keep people on the aircraft if they can.

As for the cost to the passenger you paid to go from point A to point B. The airline is responsible for getting you to you destination if they can't do it as planned they put you on another flight at no cost.

stiffdeadman
Mar 18, 2016, 3:36 AM
They could land and BLI, but probably would have big problem when trying to fly it out and the aircraft would certainly be stuck there for days or weeks. Abbotsford and Victoria airport were offered as landing locations while the plane was enroute to YVR because they were closer. Even though both airports have longer runways than BLI, neither would support flying the 777 out with passengers.

YVR is slightly closer to SEA than PDX by a few miles. The thing is, with so little fuel left, the pilots basically have at most 2 attempts to land at YVR. Had the weather been as bad as SEA and they missed the first approach, they would have to immediately turn around and make the second attempt, and the aircraft would not have enough fuel to climb back up if the second attempt failed.

Abbotsfords main runway is 9600ft long. It could have handled a 777 with passengers.

twoNeurons
Mar 18, 2016, 5:04 PM
As for the cost to the passenger you paid to go from point A to point B. The airline is responsible for getting you to you destination if they can't do it as planned they put you on another flight at no cost.

Reminds me of a flight to Japan where we were delayed by snow @ YVR. Missed our connecting flight in Tokyo to Osaka.

They offered us a night at the hotel in Haneda and an early morning flight or cash for a bullet-train ride that evening.

Different from a diversion, but same principle.

We took cash for the train.

moosejaw
Mar 18, 2016, 6:27 PM
Got delayed on Alaska airlines flight from Mia to Sea
Lady had a seizure on the plane
Had to stop off at Jax (Jacksonville)
Alaska had no maintainence crew at Jax to clear for takeoff o they had to hire American Airlines to clear them for takeoff. Well American Airlines maintainence crew found a lot of things that they wanted fixed. All of sudden a one-two hour delay turned into four five hours
Then eight hours passed. I'm doing the math in my head. I know Mia-Sea is a six hour flight
I know pilots can only fly a limited amount of hours. So I figured were not going home tonight (Xmas eve btw)

Anyways they break the news to the flight and Alaska Airlines (keep in mind they are not that big of an airline) offers to put us up for the night and pays for dinner at the local Bennigans outside the hotel. We were on our way the next day and they had representatives put us on connecting flights. Usually I'm picked up in Seattle but managed to score a connecting flight to YVR

casper
Mar 19, 2016, 10:53 PM
Got delayed on Alaska airlines flight from Mia to Sea
Lady had a seizure on the plane
Had to stop off at Jax (Jacksonville)
Alaska had no maintainence crew at Jax to clear for takeoff o they had to hire American Airlines to clear them for takeoff. Well American Airlines maintainence crew found a lot of things that they wanted fixed. All of sudden a one-two hour delay turned into four five hours
Then eight hours passed. I'm doing the math in my head. I know Mia-Sea is a six hour flight
I know pilots can only fly a limited amount of hours. So I figured were not going home tonight (Xmas eve btw)

Anyways they break the news to the flight and Alaska Airlines (keep in mind they are not that big of an airline) offers to put us up for the night and pays for dinner at the local Bennigans outside the hotel. We were on our way the next day and they had representatives put us on connecting flights. Usually I'm picked up in Seattle but managed to score a connecting flight to YVR

What Alaska did is pretty common with all the legacy airlines.

In the case of Air Canada, this is the procedure they follow:
-https://www.aircanada.com/en/agents_na/reference/documents/Irregular_Operations.pdf

The one thing that should be fixed in Canada is the fact Air Canada and WestJet do not interline. Virtually every legacy airlines interlines with every other. That makes it much easier to deal with these types of problems.

Johnny Aussie
Mar 20, 2016, 9:58 AM
Who was saying they wanted more transcon 777 action?

Next week certain days from YVR-YYZ and vv have plenty of 777 and 787 flights.

Friday for example YYZ-YVR has 5 77Ws, 2 77Ls and 2 788s scheduled. Also 3 321s for those who prefer single aisles 😁

deasine
Mar 20, 2016, 1:42 PM
Who was saying they wanted more transcon 777 action?

Next week certain days from YVR-YYZ and vv have plenty of 777 and 787 flights.

Friday for example YYZ-YVR has 5 77Ws, 2 77Ls and 2 788s scheduled. Also 3 321s for those who prefer single aisles 😁

Soon enough our YVR-YYZs will be consistency like the SYD-PER transcontinental flights, international hard product on a domestic route

whatnext
Mar 20, 2016, 5:17 PM
Who was saying they wanted more transcon 777 action?

Next week certain days from YVR-YYZ and vv have plenty of 777 and 787 flights.

Friday for example YYZ-YVR has 5 77Ws, 2 77Ls and 2 788s scheduled. Also 3 321s for those who prefer single aisles 😁

Its funny we've gone from the recession having AC doing A319 transcons (maybe even the E90 at one point?) to this, good to see!

Klazu
Mar 20, 2016, 7:02 PM
I think I was asking this already earlier, but are there many other trans-continental routes with many wide bodies? I suppose between New York and west coast there are many flights, but I think a vast majority is still narrow-body 737s etc.

Black Box
Mar 20, 2016, 11:19 PM
SEA already is a 2ndary Overseas gateway. Also, the airline numbers (per Alliance) in the chart for SeaTac are incorrect.

Also of interest is when you look at Intercontinental per destination:

SEA:

Asia
Beijing (Delta, Hainan)
Dubai (Eremites)*
Hong Kong (Delta)
Seoul (Asiana*, Delta, Korean)
Shanghai (Delta, Hainan)
Taipei (EVA)
Tokyo-Narita (ANA, Delta)


Europe
Amsterdam (Delta)
Frankfurt (Condor, Lufthansa)
London (British, Delta)
Paris (Delta)
Reykjavik (Iceland)

VANCOUVER:

Asia
Beijing (Air Canada, Air China**)
Chengdu (Sichuan**)**
Chongqing (Tianjin Airlines**)**
Guangzhou (China Southern**)**
Hong Kong (Air Canada, Cathay Pacific**)
Huangzhou (Beijing Capital Airlines**)**
Kunming (China Eastern**)**
Manila (Philippine**)**
Osaka (Air Canada)**
Qingdao (Beijing Capital Airlines**)**
Seoul (Air Canada, Korean)
Shanghai (Air Canada, China Eastern**)
Shenyang (Sichuan**)**
Taipei (China Airlines**, EVA)
Tianjin (Hainan, Tianjin**)**
Tokyo (-Haneda [ANA]**, -Narita [Air Canada, Japan Airlines**])
Xiamen (Xiamen Airlines**)**


Australasia
Auckland (Air New Zealand**)**
Brisbane (Air Canada)**
Sydney (Air Canada, Qantas**)**

Europe
Amsterdam (KLM**)
Dublin (Air Canada)**
Frankfurt (Condor, Lufthansa, )
Glasgow (Air Transat**)**
London (-Gatwick [Air Transat**, WestJet]**, -Heathrow [Air Canada, British Airways])
Manchester (Air Transat**)**
Munich (Lufthansa)**
Paris (Air France**, Air Transat**)
Reykjavik (Iceland)
Rome (Air Transat**)**
Zurich (Edelweiss**)**

Exclusives:

SEATTLE (CITY* 1-Dubai) [AIRLINE* 2-Asiana, Emirates]

VANCOUVER (CITY** [ASIA/PAC 14], [EU 6] ) (AIRLINE** [ASIA/PAC 11], [EU 4]) (AIRPORT** 2-Haneda, Gatwick)

Seattle-Tacoma serves one city (Dubai) that Vancouver doesn't and has two airlines (Asiana, Emirates) that Vancouver doesn't [although, I think Asiana is coming].

Vancouver serves 14 Asia Pacific cities and 6 EU cities, and 2 airports (Haneda, Gatwick) that Seattle doesn't. Vancouver has 11 Asia Pacific airlines and 4 EU airlines that Seattle doesn't.

Clearly, Vancouver is the largest Intercontinental Market in the Pacific Northwest, by far. I didn't include Mexico City in my analysis because it is on North America continent; but if you did count then Vancouver would win with one city served on two airlines.

Now let's look at TRUE International: Seattle serves Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver (all cities which Vancouver serves). Vancouver serves (LA, SF, LAS, SAN, IAD, ORD, DFW, IAH, SBF**, JFK**, EWR**, HNL, Maui, SLC, ATL, DTW, MSP, PHX, PDX, ANC, MEX**). Although Seattle serves many MORE cities within the US Domestic, Vancouver is the bigger Transborder route airport (including many cities** Seattle does not serve) and therefore when you consider all International - Vancouver is by far the biggest.

Very interesting - now if YVR had a hub and a mini-hub with Domestic routing like SEA does with Alaska and Delta, then YVR's true impact could be seen. YVR DOES have a hub in Air Canada and a mini-hub in WestJet, but Canada Domestic just doesn't have as many routes as US Domestic; even considering SEA's relative low level service Domestic (mostly on AS and mostly on West Coast). This can be seen by the Vancouver Domestic 10M vs SEA Domestic of 30M+ for 2015. Even if you consider both cities likely double count at least half of the Domestic (due to connections), SEA would still be ahead with around 10-15M O/D and YVR around 6M O/D. Vancouver can't change its Domestic Canada so it is probably stuck under 15M pax per year even with growth from WJ. But Vancouver can add more Intercontinental (Asia, Pacific, ME, and SA) to perhaps double that figure to around 10M and Transborder/North America to 10M, giving YVR around 35M pax per year as a ceiling.

Another interesting point is Vancouver's Europe offering. I always assumed Seattle was bigger or the same size, I had no idea YVR leaves SEA in the dust there too. YVR isn't just Asia and Pacific, it is EU as well (and I hope it continues to grow - Copenhagen, Oslo, Barcelona, Lisbon, Prague, Istambul, Moscow, maybe Warsaw - all come to mind).


True true that YVR blows Seattle away with international flights, but we're not doing too bad down here. Cheers!

Klazu
Mar 20, 2016, 11:25 PM
Why does Asiana not fly in Vancouver? I am sure Seoul as one of the largest megacities on Earth can support three airlines like Tokyo does. They are supposed to be a great 5* airline and it would be wonderful to have the option to fly with them.

trofirhen
Mar 21, 2016, 12:26 AM
True true that YVR blows Seattle away with international flights, but we're not doing too bad down here. Cheers!
Seattles US domestic coverage does tend to be in the west, as noted, but all major cities are served nonstop. And you have Emirates, which was not allowed, or did not want, YVR.
(Rather a messy deal, as I recall.)

Alpine
Mar 21, 2016, 1:18 AM
Does anyone know why YVR-MENASA fares are getting so pricey these days? I'll copy part of the post I made on Flyertalk about this:


The YVR-DEL corridor (I personally call it the "Indo-Canadian Corridor") used to be served by many different airlines; chief among them was CX, LH and the *A route (AC854 to LHR and AI116 to DEL). MU, CZ, CA, CI, BA and JL have also competed on this route, based on anecdotes I've heard from other people about how many Indians are flying on CA992, CI31 and JL17. As well as EK230 back when the loonie was strong.

However, as of now (March 2016), using the ITA matrix as a source, I've noticed that China Southern has far and away the lowest fares to India. CX fares to DEL are $1600 as well. In fact, CZ fares are $400 cheaper than the other carriers! I know that CX838 and CX889 don't match up well with CX695, but something tells me CX no longer wants to compete with CZ on YVR-DEL traffic. However,

As for Vancouver-Dubai fares, various permutations of *A and interline flights (usually connecting through YYZ or LHR; including AC or BA for the first leg and AC, BA or EK for the second) are just under $1000, with LH fares around $1100. However, some airlines which had cheap fares now have exorbitant ones! For example, BA fares to DXB are now $1500-1600, when they used to be $950, an almost 60% increase!

I tried various dates in the low season (June-September) and high season (November-January) for both destinations, with no real change in overall prices.

What's up with YVR fares to MENASA? Why are they so pricey? YVR-ADD is $1800, YVR-ISB is $1500...I know they're very long flights, but something tells me that this shouldn't be, especially with oil not at $100/bbl anymore.

Also, re: EK's service in SEA. I've been told on Airliners.net that if EK was in YVR, it would cannibalize the rich variety of routes that it currently has. My guess is, not only would AC be at risk (although that is probably a reason why there's no EK flights to YVR), but such a route would also eat through BA and Lufthansa's TATL hub traffic, not to mention KLM and Air France!

Also on A.net, I've heard that EK's current current 2x daily 77W SEA-DXB service cost Sea-Tac a few airlines and routes. The weakening loonie and AC's new YYZ-DEL/YYZ-DXB routes suddenly means EK isn't getting as much YVR-MENASA traffic as in 2013-2014. DXB doesn't have good connections to western/northern Europe and east Asia, YVR's strong spots, and it really only shines for MENASA traffic, which China Southern and BA have already locked down at YVR (and I suspect LH as well). If the Canada-Turkey trade agreement is a go and we get YVR-IST via Turkish Airlines, we may not even need service to DXB.

One more thing about EK in SEA: They only use 2x daily 77Ws because Sea-Tac doesn't have the capacity to support A380s...while YVR does. And BA84/85 will be upgauged to a 388 in the summer, along with AC's second daily (a 789), and the inaugural 747-8i service to ICN via KE71/72. Checkmate, Seattle.

PS: Please recommend me a source for inexpensive YVR-MENASA fares. I should not have to pay $1600 to fly to India just so I can avoid the zoo that is CAN.

trofirhen
Mar 21, 2016, 1:48 AM
Does anyone know why YVR-MENASA fares are getting so pricey these days? I'll copy part of the post I made on Flyertalk about this:



Also, re: EK's service in SEA. I've been told on Airliners.net that if EK was in YVR, it would cannibalize the rich variety of routes that it currently has. My guess is, not only would AC be at risk (although that is probably a reason why there's no EK flights to YVR), but such a route would also eat through BA and Lufthansa's TATL hub traffic, not to mention KLM and Air France!

Also on A.net, I've heard that EK's current current 2x daily 77W SEA-DXB service cost Sea-Tac a few airlines and routes. The weakening loonie and AC's new YYZ-DEL/YYZ-DXB routes suddenly means EK isn't getting as much YVR-MENASA traffic as in 2013-2014. DXB doesn't have good connections to western/northern Europe and east Asia, YVR's strong spots, and it really only shines for MENASA traffic, which China Southern and BA have already locked down at YVR (and I suspect LH as well). If the Canada-Turkey trade agreement is a go and we get YVR-IST via Turkish Airlines, we may not even need service to DXB.

One more thing about EK in SEA: They only use 2x daily 77Ws because Sea-Tac doesn't have the capacity to support A380s...while YVR does. And BA84/85 will be upgauged to a 388 in the summer, along with AC's second daily (a 789), and the inaugural 747-8i service to ICN via KE71/72. Checkmate, Seattle.

PS: Please recommend me a source for inexpensive YVR-MENASA fares. I should not have to pay $1600 to fly to India just so I can avoid the zoo that is CAN.
I think IST would be a great destination for YVR. Better than DBX, which is at the exact opposite longitude as YVR! Anything to India or Pakistan is shorter over the Pacific.

OK .... can anyone help this gentleman with his second question? ... Step right up, please ...:cheers:

casper
Mar 21, 2016, 5:10 AM
I think IST would be a great destination for YVR. Better than DBX, which is at the exact opposite longitude as YVR! Anything to India or Pakistan is shorter over the Pacific.

OK .... can anyone help this gentleman with his second question? ... Step right up, please ...:cheers:

There is no specific airline or route that has the beast rate. They all price based on how many seats are currently available and what the airlines software thinks it will be able to sell in the future as it gets closer to departure date.

The following tool will search all published rates: https://matrix.itasoftware.com/

You can try to get the ita routines and fare base by trial and error on websites or take the code for the flight to a travel agent who will ticket.

There are also some travel agents that specialise in working with consolidators that have access to un published fares.

One last game to play if buy a ticket from Vancouver to somewhere else (Like London) then another ticket from their. I would plan on stating over a night as your not protected from missed connections if billed on separate tickets.

Vagabond
Mar 21, 2016, 7:29 AM
I'm seeing many YVR-DEL flights (at different times of the year) on Google Flights in the $1000-$1200 CAD range. And not all of those flights are on Chinese carriers. YVR-BOM is always a bit more, if you don't want to fly on Ar China or Air India, but I haven't noticed a huge jump in prices on that route either (recently).

The advantages of a direct YVR-DXB flight would go beyond simply what is the most direct flight path to South Asia, as flying through DXB would offer a lot more flexibility on routing and scheduling to South Asia and the Middle East. You miss your connecting flight to Mumbai or Delhi - no worries - there will be another one in a couple of hours (not so via LHR or PEK, etc.)!

Also, flying to DEL and BOM trans pacific isn't nearly as direct as gcmap.com makes it look like, as commercial airlines don't fly over the highest peaks of the Himalaya, resulting in extended flight times between Northeast Asia and India/Nepal. Seoul-Mumbai is nearly as long a flight as London-Mumbai, despite being over 1000 miles shorter (in a straight line). In gate-to-gate timings, flying through Asia is approx. the same as going through Europe, you just usually spend more time in the air, as opposed to slightly shorter flights and longer layovers via Europe.

I think IST would be a great destination for YVR. Better than DBX, which is at the exact opposite longitude as YVR! Anything to India or Pakistan is shorter over the Pacific.

OK .... can anyone help this gentleman with his second question? ... Step right up, please ...:cheers:

trofirhen
Mar 21, 2016, 3:14 PM
I'm seeing many YVR-DEL flights (at different times of the year) on Google Flights in the $1000-$1200 CAD range. And not all of those flights are on Chinese carriers. YVR-BOM is always a bit more, if you don't want to fly on Ar China or Air India, but I haven't noticed a huge jump in prices on that route either (recently).

The advantages of a direct YVR-DXB flight would go beyond simply what is the most direct flight path to South Asia, as flying through DXB would offer a lot more flexibility on routing and scheduling to South Asia and the Middle East. You miss your connecting flight to Mumbai or Delhi - no worries - there will be another one in a couple of hours (not so via LHR or PEK, etc.)!

Also, flying to DEL and BOM trans pacific isn't nearly as direct as gcmap.com makes it look like, as commercial airlines don't fly over the highest peaks of the Himalaya, resulting in extended flight times between Northeast Asia and India/Nepal. Seoul-Mumbai is nearly as long a flight as London-Mumbai, despite being over 1000 miles shorter (in a straight line). In gate-to-gate timings, flying through Asia is approx. the same as going through Europe, you just usually spend more time in the air, as opposed to slightly shorter flights and longer layovers via Europe.

Your point is well made. My problem is EK itself, and their policy of treating the entire world as if on a "global open skies" premise. They want access to all routes, anywhere, then "CHOMP"
I would much prefer QATAR Airways if we're going for a South Asia route. QATAR is a member of OneWorld, and as such are more likely to stick to playing by the rules, I think.

nname
Mar 21, 2016, 7:17 PM
So I was wondering why reservation haven't opened for Xiamen Airlines when the route is scheduled to start in about 4 months. Apparently they haven't obtain the license to operate in Canada yet:

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/2016-a-35

Johnny Aussie
Mar 22, 2016, 1:48 AM
So I was wondering why reservation haven't opened for Xiamen Airlines when the route is scheduled to start in about 4 months. Apparently they haven't obtain the license to operate in Canada yet:

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/2016-a-35

I check out the following link from time to time... https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/decisions

Gives some good insight as to possible upcoming routes... makes for great speculation though :)

Lucky for Xiamen.

The CTA appears to be reasonable in its decision to grant an exemption to allow Xiamen Airlines to start selling the flights Subjec to Gov't Approval.

They are cutting it pretty close though. Although this probably isn't as rare as we think.

I suppose this may also be the case for Tianjin and Beijing Capital Airlines.

nname
Mar 22, 2016, 6:43 AM
I check out the following link from time to time... https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/decisions

Yes I've been monitoring that page

It seems lately Air Canada is expanding all over the world by codesharing... The latest codeshare destinations are Singapore, Grenada, Bolivia, and Kenya...

Hot Rod
Mar 22, 2016, 9:32 AM
Does anyone know why YVR-MENASA fares are getting so pricey these days? I'll copy part of the post I made on Flyertalk about this:



Also, re: EK's service in SEA. I've been told on Airliners.net that if EK was in YVR, it would cannibalize the rich variety of routes that it currently has. My guess is, not only would AC be at risk (although that is probably a reason why there's no EK flights to YVR), but such a route would also eat through BA and Lufthansa's TATL hub traffic, not to mention KLM and Air France!

Also on A.net, I've heard that EK's current current 2x daily 77W SEA-DXB service cost Sea-Tac a few airlines and routes. The weakening loonie and AC's new YYZ-DEL/YYZ-DXB routes suddenly means EK isn't getting as much YVR-MENASA traffic as in 2013-2014. DXB doesn't have good connections to western/northern Europe and east Asia, YVR's strong spots, and it really only shines for MENASA traffic, which China Southern and BA have already locked down at YVR (and I suspect LH as well). If the Canada-Turkey trade agreement is a go and we get YVR-IST via Turkish Airlines, we may not even need service to DXB.

One more thing about EK in SEA: They only use 2x daily 77Ws because Sea-Tac doesn't have the capacity to support A380s...while YVR does. And BA84/85 will be upgauged to a 388 in the summer, along with AC's second daily (a 789), and the inaugural 747-8i service to ICN via KE71/72. Checkmate, Seattle.

PS: Please recommend me a source for inexpensive YVR-MENASA fares. I should not have to pay $1600 to fly to India just so I can avoid the zoo that is CAN.

Isn't Lufthansa supposed to be flying 747-8i into YVR from Frankfurt as well?

Klazu
Mar 22, 2016, 3:04 PM
Only speculated, never confirmed.

Johnny Aussie
Mar 22, 2016, 10:04 PM
http://yvr.ca/en/flight-information/latest-information/16-03-22/Xiamen_Airlines_to_Land_in_Canada_for_the_First_Time_at_YVR.aspx

excel
Mar 23, 2016, 4:12 AM
Crazy to think YVR will have more Chinese carriers than LAX, LHR, AMS, FRA, SFO and JFK.

Klazu
Mar 23, 2016, 4:35 AM
That's an interesting perspective to put it, excel! Pretty spectacular, indeed. :)

Alpine
Mar 23, 2016, 4:54 AM
Does anyone think there will be YVR-WNZ service? Wenzhou is the entrepreneurship and private finance hub of Red China, there must be many WZ millionaires who want to do business with Canada, or buy RE in Vancouver. Plus, high speed trains toward Wenzhou have a habit of crashing.

Klazu
Mar 23, 2016, 5:04 AM
Plus, high speed trains toward Wenzhou have a habit of crashing.

Just curious what does this mean? :???:

nname
Mar 23, 2016, 5:10 AM
Does anyone think there will be YVR-WNZ service?

If the Wenzhou government subsidize it, anything can happen.

Pretty much all of the routes from Chinese secondary cities are heavily subsidized by the local government. This includes YVR service to CTU, SHE, KMG, XMN, etc... I remember MU originally want to run the KMG service as KMG-HGH-YVR, but Hangzhou government only willing to pay for half of what MU asked, so they route all traffic via PVG instead...

Black Box
Mar 23, 2016, 2:45 PM
Crazy to think YVR will have more Chinese carriers than LAX, LHR, AMS, FRA, SFO and JFK.

It's good to see Vancouver becoming an important hub for flights to China. If I ever decide to go to China, and want a good deal, Vancouver is close by.

twoNeurons
Mar 23, 2016, 6:56 PM
Just curious what does this mean? :???:

The 2011 Wenzhou HSR crash that killed over 100 people. Although not related to speed ( it wasn't going at high speeds at the time ), the incident allowed the Chinese to reduce speed limits across the board from 350km/h to 300km/h, which is where it still remains.

Side note: Some feel that this incident allowed the Chinese to reduce speeds from 350km/h to 300km/h without admitting that they shouldn't have been pushing their trains to 350km/h in the first place. Interestingly, trains are still running @ 300km/h.

After an investigation, there was also a lot of corruption uncovered in the industry at the time ( surprise, surprise ) which revealed that they had likely been running faster than they should have.

It seems they got so caught up with 'technically we CAN run trains the fastest' and didn't stop to think 'but SHOULD we'?

Then again, maybe it was worth it. The press China got for having the fastest regularly scheduled trains was golden at the time... and I'm sure many people think that they still have the fastest regularly scheduled trains now. Last I checked, that record was held by France LGV Est, Japan, Tohoku Shinkansen... and I believe Spain... all running at 320km/h.

Correction... the Airport line in Shanghai is still fastest, running at 430km/h. Always forget about that little spur.

Klazu
Mar 23, 2016, 7:27 PM
Thanks for the background, but an individual incident is hardly the same as "having a habit". ;)

trofirhen
Mar 23, 2016, 10:41 PM
Getting back to YVR and aviation .........

SFUVancouver
Mar 23, 2016, 11:26 PM
I'm home from my Australian business trip. Johnny, thanks for your countrymen's hospitality.

I flew through SYD, CNS, and OOL during my travels. Exciting to see so many foreign widebody tails at SYD and both CNS and OOL are solid primarily regional/increasingly international airports.

Regarding my pre-trip inquiry about the Air Canada economy cabin product, yes, it turns out that the 772LR aircraft on both legs was the new HD interior product. I highly recommend against sitting anywhere in the centre of the cabin. The four-abreast centre still has the structural mounts of a three-abreast row, which means that there's a metal column in the middle of one's legroom area no matter what. The legroom of the 'F' seat is particularly egregious as the bulky in-flight entertainment (IFE) system communications box is adjacent to the seat support column. Guess in which seat I got to spend 16 hours? The seat pitch is also the bare minimum. My knees touched the back of the seat in front of me when that person reclined (as everyone does for long-haul flights) and I'm only 5'11", so good luck to you if you crack 6'. With that said, the actual seats are quite comfortable with a highly adjustable headrest. The IFE system is good, with a nice screen and simple, intuitive touch-screen controls, though the entertainment selection is quite limited compared to my long-haul flights on Qantas, BA, Cathay, Lufthansa, American, and United over the last couple years.

On my return trip I had a window seat in the back in a two-seat row (41K), where the cabin curves in, and the long-haul flight gods blessed me with an empty seat beside me. That made it a far more bearable 14+ hour trip home from Sydney. For what it's worth, this is the correct SeatGuru map for the Air Canada YVR-SYD HD interior cabin product: http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air_Canada/Air_Canada_Boeing_777-200LR_77L_v3.php

The "food" on the plane left a lot to be desired, especially on the return flight. Certainly not Qantas, BA, Lufthansa, or Cathay quality, but still miles ahead of United and American with their boxed "meals".

http://yvr.ca/en/flight-information/latest-information/16-03-22/Xiamen_Airlines_to_Land_in_Canada_for_the_First_Time_at_YVR.aspx

That's great news! I saw a Xiamen airlines plane in SYD on my way down and hoped that we would hear some news soon about the potential route to YVR.

Klazu
Mar 24, 2016, 12:48 AM
Welcome home, our own road warrior! :)

nname
Mar 24, 2016, 8:54 PM
http://yvr.ca/en/flight-information/latest-information/16-03-22/Xiamen_Airlines_to_Land_in_Canada_for_the_First_Time_at_YVR.aspx

Not sure if this pricing is attractive though :D

http://oi65.tinypic.com/2vbx8ww.jpg
(Price in CAD)

Going the other way is a bit cheaper at $5722 rt.

excel
Mar 24, 2016, 9:16 PM
Oh my. How is it so expensive? I remember flying round trip to Bangkok through Narita on JAL and it was only $1200 round trip.

Hot Rod
Mar 24, 2016, 9:50 PM
seems to be overstated by a factor of 10.

I checked on their official website and Vancouver isn't selectable yet.

nname
Mar 24, 2016, 9:59 PM
seems to be overstated by a factor of 10.

I checked on their official website and Vancouver isn't selectable yet.

Go to the Chinese version and it is. The pricing there is slightly cheaper than the one in Google, probably off by a few dollars.

Johnny Aussie
Mar 24, 2016, 10:00 PM
seems to be overstated by a factor of 10.

I checked on their official website and Vancouver isn't selectable yet.

Yes, YVR is now selectable under "Hot Cities" - ha!

Like some new routes, when flights are first loaded they don't quite get the pricing right yet. Same thing happened when Hainan loaded PEK-YYC. Seems kind of crazy but this is not uncommon. If you wait a couple of days it will get sorted. Also expect some sort of launch special.

Johnny Aussie
Mar 24, 2016, 10:08 PM
After being badly damaged, it's taken to the air again.

Good story of the process here....

http://ironmaiden.com/news/article/ed-force-one-repaired

Look out for it on 9/10 April during the Iron Maiden "Book of Souls" tour visit to Vancouver. Concert is on the 10th.

moosejaw
Mar 25, 2016, 7:34 PM
After being badly damaged, it's taken to the air again.

Good story of the process here....

http://ironmaiden.com/news/article/ed-force-one-repaired

Look out for it on 9/10 April during the Iron Maiden "Book of Souls" tour visit to Vancouver. Concert is on the 10th.

Glad to see that
Did you know Bruce Dickinson leased the jet in Miami (i believe thought Air Atlanta), flew it back to Cardiff Wales. Loaded it up with his mates and gear and the first stop it came back to Ft Lauderdale (just 20 min north where he originally picked the plane up)

There was a guy who took the photo of it landing in Ft Lauderdale was approached by Bruce Dickinson to purchase it off of him. When Ed Force One landed everyone had pulled off the interstate to take a picture. 747s are a rare sight in FLL.

Is EF1 coming to YVR?

CareerShow
Mar 28, 2016, 9:02 AM
Looks like from the 15 of June YVR to Beijing will be up-gauged to the HD 450 seating 777 300 ER

Hot Rod
Mar 28, 2016, 11:01 AM
Ac?

Klazu
Mar 28, 2016, 11:27 AM
I would think so. I don't think anyone else flies one, yet.

It's not that bad of a plane. I just embarked from one here in Toronto after a red eye flight from YVR. Now waiting to board AC941 to MIA. :)

Connecting in Toronto for an US-bound flight is just so cumbersome through all the checks at F terminal. They had again added a new step to complete. Luckily I was quick to embark the plane as those pre-clearances can take time. I wonder how it's in Vancouver for US connections?

moosejaw
Mar 28, 2016, 1:22 PM
I would think so. I don't think anyone else flies one, yet.

It's not that bad of a plane. I just embarked from one here in Toronto after a red eye flight from YVR. Now waiting to board AC941 to MIA. :)

Connecting in Toronto for an US-bound flight is just so cumbersome through all the checks at F terminal. They had again added a new step to complete. Luckily I was quick to embark the plane as those pre-clearances can take time. I wonder how it's in Vancouver for US connections?

Welcome to miami Klazu. Hopefully there wont be any rain during your stay

trofirhen
Mar 28, 2016, 3:54 PM
I would think so. I don't think anyone else flies one, yet.

It's not that bad of a plane. I just embarked from one here in Toronto after a red eye flight from YVR. Now waiting to board AC941 to MIA. :)

Connecting in Toronto for an US-bound flight is just so cumbersome through all the checks at F terminal. They had again added a new step to complete. Luckily I was quick to embark the plane as those pre-clearances can take time. I wonder how it's in Vancouver for US connections?
...which begs the ancient question ... is there enough yield for a YVR - MIA nonstop? It somehow seems viable, yet apparently not.

SFUVancouver
Mar 28, 2016, 5:58 PM
Welcome home, our own road warrior! :)

Thank you!

I would think so. I don't think anyone else flies one, yet.

It's not that bad of a plane. I just embarked from one here in Toronto after a red eye flight from YVR. Now waiting to board AC941 to MIA. :)

Connecting in Toronto for an US-bound flight is just so cumbersome through all the checks at F terminal. They had again added a new step to complete. Luckily I was quick to embark the plane as those pre-clearances can take time. I wonder how it's in Vancouver for US connections?

I've stopped flying through YYZ to the US because of the unpredictability of transiting through that airport. I was dumbfounded in December when after hustling and running through the airport to make my tight connection (due to a later-than-planned departure from Vancouver) I found myself confronted with a waiting/holding area where you have to wait and watch a screen and have your name come up before proceeding through to the next stage of customs. After that you still need to clear security again, despite being airside! The only reason I made my flight was because it, too, had been delayed in its arrival to YYZ. [Air Canada for the YVR-YYZ leg; Air Canada Express (Air Georgian) for the US connection].

moosejaw
Mar 28, 2016, 7:15 PM
...which begs the ancient question ... is there enough yield for a YVR - MIA nonstop? It somehow seems viable, yet apparently not.
Trofirhen I know you like Miami a lot

In my experience twenty years ago as a kid..... defintely not
American Airlines flew a 767 daily in the midst of cruise ship season
It was an expensive flight.....Over $700 return
There was on average one person per row with some rows unfilled.
I believe it was a seasonal flight.

Now you might say that nowadays with the Chinese connections, YVR is possible???
However nowadays the 777LR jets are shooting for Miami to Taipei targets which will pretty much make YVR obsolete in the near future. I believe the range is close.

Coupled with the fact that China Air Cargo already flies daily to MIA via Frankfurt and already has a maintenance crew stationed here makes the possibility of Asian Airlines passing over Vancouver a unfortunate reality.

trofirhen
Mar 28, 2016, 9:07 PM
Trofirhen I know you like Miami a lot

In my experience twenty years ago as a kid..... defintely not
American Airlines flew a 767 daily in the midst of cruise ship season
It was an expensive flight.....Over $700 return
There was on average one person per row with some rows unfilled.
I believe it was a seasonal flight.

Now you might say that nowadays with the Chinese connections, YVR is possible???
However nowadays the 777LR jets are shooting for Miami to Taipei targets which will pretty much make YVR obsolete in the near future. I believe the range is close.

Coupled with the fact that China Air Cargo already flies daily to MIA via Frankfurt and already has a maintenance crew stationed here makes the possibility of Asian Airlines passing over Vancouver a unfortunate reality.
Yes, I see. Th only way around that would be if their enough O/D traffic between YVR and MIA, which there is not.

casper
Mar 28, 2016, 10:31 PM
Yes, I see. Th only way around that would be if their enough O/D traffic between YVR and MIA, which there is not.

An airlines that might be able to make it work would be Philippine airlines. All those Miami cruise ships are full of Philippine contract workers that commute home every couple of months.

That said, I don't know if the volumes would work or not.

Klazu
Mar 29, 2016, 1:10 AM
I've stopped flying through YYZ to the US because of the unpredictability of transiting through that airport. I was dumbfounded in December [...] I found myself confronted with a waiting/holding area where you have to wait and watch a screen and have your name come up before proceeding through to the next stage of customs. After that you still need to clear security again, despite being airside!

Yeah, that step is definitely new and I don't get the point of it. For some reason I was able to skip it as the machine told me to go directly to an officer, but many people were turned back. I didn't get the point of it.

Pre-clearing customs in Canada is great when your flying directly across the border, but having to do it upon your connection is very risky. Too bad that many connections from Vancouver to places on east coast will take you through YYZ or YUL, unless you choose to fly via ORD, MSP or SEA even.

What is also so strange in Toronto is that arriving from Vancouver, you are embarking very quickly to a public non-secure area as you move towards F terminal. You see all the people checking in beside you and there is no security check there. The whole F terminal experience seems like an afterthought to me. I hope the experience in Vancouver is smoother for transit passengers (never done it myself).

Klazu
Mar 29, 2016, 1:15 AM
Welcome to miami Klazu. Hopefully there wont be any rain during your stay

Thanks! Pleasure to be here and I am staying in Westin Fort Lauderdale tonight. I will be making my way towards Orlando later this week and then Tampa next week, before returning to Vancouver. Ten days of spring break sightseeing and my first time in Florida. Looks nice and warm so far! :)

...which begs the ancient question ... is there enough yield for a YVR - MIA nonstop? It somehow seems viable, yet apparently not.

Leftcoaster has already crunched the numbers for us. I just want to add that I personally know of many people and companies that have satellite offices or customers in Florida (either Miami or Orlando area), so there is lots of traveling back and forth. Tourism should still triumph that, both ways.

As a side note the early morning A320 from YYZ to MIA wasn't full either. Actually there were so few people that I believe it was because of that the check-in system gave me an Exit Row seat free of charge so that there would be someone to open it if needed! What a pleasant surprise. :yes:

Johnny Aussie
Mar 29, 2016, 4:09 AM
Not really worth mentioning.. but OK why not!

AS is decreasing frequency on YVR-SEA to only 5 daily..... but...
2 of the 5 will be on Alaska mainline... and...
they will be on 737-800s... so...
more than likely sporting their new look!

Overall there will be more seats as last winter the route was 6 daily on Horizon DH4s.

stiffdeadman
Mar 29, 2016, 4:25 AM
Not really worth mentioning.. but OK why not!

AS is decreasing frequency on YVR-SEA to only 5 daily..... but...
2 of the 5 will be on Alaska mainline... and...
they will be on 737-800s... so...
more than likely sporting their new look!

Overall there will be more seats as last winter the route was 6 daily on Horizon DH4s.

Interesting. Lots of seats to fill. I looked in November and a roundtrip is over $300US. Not exactly enticing to anyone south of the Fraser when Bellingham is way cheaper. Notice they sure pad the flight times. No way is it an hour flight time when BLI to SEA is 25 minutes. Guess they go gate to gate to get the hour.

Johnny Aussie
Mar 29, 2016, 6:32 AM
Interesting. Lots of seats to fill. I looked in November and a roundtrip is over $300US. Not exactly enticing to anyone south of the Fraser when Bellingham is way cheaper. Notice they sure pad the flight times. No way is it an hour flight time when BLI to SEA is 25 minutes. Guess they go gate to gate to get the hour.

I would tip that over 90% of the pax on YVR-SEA are connecting onto Alaska's vast network out of SEA. 1:00 "flying time" on a 738 but only 0:49 on a DH4. Yes that is block to block time... BLI-SEA is 0:40 on all flights whether it's a DH4 or a 738.

I couldn't imagine driving to Bellingham only to then fly to Seattle. I would just keep driving... :haha:

ShawnShank
Mar 29, 2016, 6:37 AM
AC rouge going to use their new A321s on 1 daily flight to LAS in May and October as per http://airlineroute.net/2016/03/29/zx-321-s16update1/

Can't wait to see them in person, while I'd never actually fly rouge their livery is amazing

teriyaki
Mar 29, 2016, 3:03 PM
I would tip that over 90% of the pax on YVR-SEA are connecting onto Alaska's vast network out of SEA. 1:00 "flying time" on a 738 but only 0:49 on a DH4. Yes that is block to block time... BLI-SEA is 0:40 on all flights whether it's a DH4 or a 738.

I couldn't imagine driving to Bellingham only to then fly to Seattle. I would just keep driving... :haha:

YVR-SEA is proving to be a popular route for connections for both Alaska and Delta. Just flew down to connect in SEA 2 weeks ago on DL, and the flight was oversold and were asking for volunteers to give up their seat. Next available flight wasn't till the day after.

Just this weekend, flew back up from SEA-YVR and again it was oversold, with no available flights back up for 2 days after. Every flight over the holiday weekend was completely oversold and I think they have like 5x daily.

Valley_Refugee
Mar 29, 2016, 3:45 PM
Interesting. Lots of seats to fill. I looked in November and a roundtrip is over $300US. Not exactly enticing to anyone south of the Fraser when Bellingham is way cheaper. Notice they sure pad the flight times. No way is it an hour flight time when BLI to SEA is 25 minutes. Guess they go gate to gate to get the hour.

FYI, airlines generally report all flight times as gate to gate.

sacrifice333
Mar 29, 2016, 8:49 PM
FYI, airlines generally report all flight times as gate to gate.

Don't most report Gate to Touchdown and then PAD vigorously?!

Cage
Mar 29, 2016, 9:35 PM
Connecting in Toronto for an US-bound flight is just so cumbersome through all the checks at F terminal. They had again added a new step to complete. Luckily I was quick to embark the plane as those pre-clearances can take time. I wonder how it's in Vancouver for US connections?

I've stopped flying through YYZ to the US because of the unpredictability of transiting through that airport. I was dumbfounded in December when after hustling and running through the airport to make my tight connection (due to a later-than-planned departure from Vancouver) I found myself confronted with a waiting/holding area where you have to wait and watch a screen and have your name come up before proceeding through to the next stage of customs. After that you still need to clear security again, despite being airside! The only reason I made my flight was because it, too, had been delayed in its arrival to YYZ. [Air Canada for the YVR-YYZ leg; Air Canada Express (Air Georgian) for the US connection].

Yeah, that step is definitely new and I don't get the point of it. For some reason I was able to skip it as the machine told me to go directly to an officer, but many people were turned back. I didn't get the point of it.

.....
What is also so strange in Toronto is that arriving from Vancouver, you are embarking very quickly to a public non-secure area as you move towards F terminal. You see all the people checking in beside you and there is no security check there. The whole F terminal experience seems like an afterthought to me. I hope the experience in Vancouver is smoother for transit passengers (never done it myself).

There is a Transborder connections center in YYZ T1, this is the holding pen everyone above is talking about. In the good old days 10 years ago, the connection center included a luggage carousel where the pax would wait for their bags and then proceed through USCBP and through security. When YYZ implemented a new connection checked bag process, pax were no longer required to pickup their bags to proceed through USCBP. The waiting area is to ensure that connection pax bags are received into the USCBP bag area prior to the pax clearing customs and immigration. If the primary inspection officer needs to refer the pax to secondary screening, the checked bags are also pulled and inspected. Carry on only pax do not have to go through the check bag wait process.

trofirhen
Mar 29, 2016, 11:20 PM
Trofirhen I know you like Miami a lot

In my experience twenty years ago as a kid..... defintely not
American Airlines flew a 767 daily in the midst of cruise ship season. It was an expensive flight.....Over $700 return
There was on average one person per row with some rows unfilled. I believe it was a seasonal flight.

Now you might say that nowadays with the Chinese connections, YVR is possible???
However nowadays the 777LR jets are shooting for Miami to Taipei targets which will pretty much make YVR obsolete in the near future. I believe the range is close.

Coupled with the fact that China Air Cargo already flies daily to MIA via Frankfurt and already has a maintenance crew stationed here makes the possibility of Asian Airlines passing over Vancouver a unfortunate reality.
Given that, I wonder why, nonetheless YVR will have more Chinese airlines than, as "EXCEL" pointed out: LAX, LHR, AMS, FRA, SFO and JFK. Seems rather a huge anomaly. :koko:

nname
Mar 29, 2016, 11:50 PM
Given that, I wonder why, nonetheless YVR will have more Chinese airlines than, as "EXCEL" pointed out: LAX, LHR, AMS, FRA, SFO and JFK. Seems rather a huge anomaly. :koko:

Only for now.

Right now the Chinese carrier are applying for LAX like crazy... What's new for this year and early next year:

HU CSX-LAX
3U CTU-TNA-LAX
3U CTU-HGH-LAX
MF XMN-LAX
CA SZX-LAX

Plus the existing:

CA PEK-LAX
MU PVG-LAX
MU CTU-NKG-LAX
CZ CAN-LAX

Interestingly there will be 3 different one-stop services to CTU 3x weekly each

Seems like CA is starting to develop its southern hub at SZX as it will start 3 long-haul routes this year to Europe, North America, and Australia. Maybe SZX-YVR is coming soon? :D

trofirhen
Mar 30, 2016, 1:20 AM
So, YVR's main competitor for this market is therefore LAX, and not SEA, I would assume?

swan_ch
Mar 30, 2016, 7:18 AM
So, YVR's main competitor for this market is therefore LAX, and not SEA, I would assume?

While consider the Chinese Population in these cities in West Coast, Seattle is not even close. (source: Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_with_significant_Chinese-American_populations))

San Francisco, CA: 172,181
Los Angeles, CA: 66,782
San Jose, CA: 63,434
San Diego, CA: 35,661
Fremont, CA: 34,678
Oakland, CA: 34,083
Seattle, WA: 27,216

connect2source
Mar 30, 2016, 3:32 PM
All new, very attractive and much improved website for YVR.

http://yvr.ca/en/passengers

stiffdeadman
Mar 31, 2016, 4:39 AM
I would tip that over 90% of the pax on YVR-SEA are connecting onto Alaska's vast network out of SEA. 1:00 "flying time" on a 738 but only 0:49 on a DH4. Yes that is block to block time... BLI-SEA is 0:40 on all flights whether it's a DH4 or a 738.

I couldn't imagine driving to Bellingham only to then fly to Seattle. I would just keep driving... :haha:

i live right on the border. with nexus I am at BLI 18 minutes after leaving home. but yes driving to seatac is only 2 hours which i am doing at the end of the month. flying alaska down to burbank. fare was only $89 each way taxes/fees included.

Johnny Aussie
Mar 31, 2016, 5:03 AM
i live right on the border. with nexus I am at BLI 18 minutes after leaving home. but yes driving to seatac is only 2 hours which i am doing at the end of the month. flying alaska down to burbank. fare was only $89 each way taxes/fees included.

If that's in CAD I'd say a good deal. If USD that's closer to $230CAD return. Just checked a whole bunch of dates in April both ways and $252CAD return all up YVR-LAX on AC (didn't bother checking other carriers). Actually just saw some even cheaper... Anyway you get my point.

So to me driving all that way to save $22 I couldn't be bothered especially with all the wasted time and gas. But I guess if you are on the border sure. So a 2 hour vs a 40 min drive I guess. Parking vs being dropped off... All has to be taken into account I guess. Dunno. To each his own.

As I said earlier the whole YVR vs BLI/SEA debate has been going on since the 80s. With the low CAD and the better fares available out of Canada now doesn't seem as attractive especially for those not living near the border.

nname
Mar 31, 2016, 6:15 AM
Right now I would just avoid travel to or thru US. Not really a fan of the way they tax the tickets -- more than 2x as much as the Canadian side (and we complains that Canada tax too much!?) and you pay more tax if you're a Canadian travel to US than if you're a US citizen coming back from Canada. I would never give my business to SEA or BLI because of this. Rather, I would just take all my vacations in Asia or maybe Europe from YVR/YYZ, or travel domestically with the points I earned from travel internationally :D

Johnny Aussie
Mar 31, 2016, 8:18 AM
Right now I would just avoid travel to or thru US. Not really a fan of the way they tax the tickets -- more than 2x as much as the Canadian side (and we complains that Canada tax too much!?) and you pay more tax if you're a Canadian travel to US than if you're a US citizen coming back from Canada. I would never give my business to SEA or BLI because of this. Rather, I would just take all my vacations in Asia or maybe Europe from YVR/YYZ, or travel domestically with the points I earned from travel internationally :D

Don't forget Australia! Although it's getting $$$ down here.... But domestic travel (flights) u can get for a steal! And travel from Aus to SE Asia is so cheap too.... 🐨🌴🇦🇺

nname
Mar 31, 2016, 7:00 PM
Its quite expensive to fly direct to Australia from here.. but now think about it, I might tag it onto one of my Asia trip.

Now back on topic, doesn't seems like we will be getting Tianjin Airlines in June, as they will start their first long haul route London (Gatwick) - Chongqing - Tianjin on 6/25 with their first and only A330.

EDIT: There will be a second one coming later in the year, maybe that's when they start Chongqing - Tianjin - Vancouver (and also Moscow from both Chongqing and Tianjin using spare blocks from either planes)? Most likely not June as originally planned though.

ACT7
Mar 31, 2016, 8:08 PM
While consider the Chinese Population in these cities in West Coast, Seattle is not even close. (source: Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_with_significant_Chinese-American_populations))

San Francisco, CA: 172,181
Los Angeles, CA: 66,782
San Jose, CA: 63,434
San Diego, CA: 35,661
Fremont, CA: 34,678
Oakland, CA: 34,083
Seattle, WA: 27,216
Those aren't the metro populations, just city proper. San Fran/Bay Area is closer to 630K Chinese and greater LA, about 570K.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_with_significant_Chinese-American_populations

nname
Mar 31, 2016, 8:41 PM
Those aren't the metro populations, just city proper. San Fran/Bay Area is closer to 630K Chinese and greater LA, about 570K.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_with_significant_Chinese-American_populations

Compare that to Metro Toronto 532k and Vancouver 411k

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Canadians#Population_statistics

Richmond still beat them all in the percentage :D

Max.
Mar 31, 2016, 8:43 PM
What about the Chinese population in Vancouver?

Johnny Aussie
Mar 31, 2016, 9:40 PM
Now back on topic, doesn't seems like we will be getting Tianjin Airlines in June, as they will start their first long haul route London (Gatwick) - Chongqing - Tianjin on 6/25 with their first and only A330.

EDIT: There will be a second one coming later in the year, maybe that's when they start Chongqing - Tianjin - Vancouver (and also Moscow from both Chongqing and Tianjin using spare blocks from either planes)? Most likely not June as originally planned though.

The problem now is... Chinese carriers are running out of allowable weekly frequencies to Canada. After Hainan to YYC and Xiamen to YVR, there are now only (approximately as I can't recall the exact figure) two remaining allowable frequencies. The next round of talks I think is either April or July this year (again I cannot recall the details without digging too much right now). So until the bilateral is further expanded the limit is almost exhausted.

Compare that to Metro Toronto 532k and Vancouver 411k

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Canadians#Population_statistics

Richmond still beat them all in the percentage :D

It's huge isn't it. And still growing.

nname
Mar 31, 2016, 11:35 PM
Noticed YVR twitter posted a link to its old website (https://t.co/Yo1vwqU5j5)

Looking at the old 1996 destination list, how does that compare to now?

Domestic (outside BC)
YEG 100 CP, KI, WS, ZX
YOW 28 AC, CP
YQR 7 KI
YUL 22 AC, CP
YWG 22 AC, CP
YXE 13 KI
YXY 26 CP, NV
YYC 236 AC, CP, KI, WS, ZX
YYZ 124 AC, CP

Transborder
ATL 7 DL
CVG 7 DL
DEN 7 UA
DFW 14 AA
DTW 7 NW
JFK 13 AA, CX
HNL 11 AC, CP
LAS 9 CP, HP
LAX 64 AC, CP, DL, UA
MIA 7 AA
MSP 21 NW
ORD 28 CP, UA
PDX 59 DL, QX, ZX
PHX 14 HP
RNO 15 CP, QQ
SAN 14 AS
SEA 165 KI, QX, UA, ZX
SFO 49 AC, CP, DL, UA
SJC 7 AA
SLC 14 DL

International
BKK 6 CP (via HKG)
DEL 3 AC (via LHR)
HKG 26 AC, CP, CX
ICN 8 AC, KE, SQ
KIX 7 AC
KUL 2 CP, MH (via TPE)
NGO 5 CP
NRT 21 CP, JL
PEK 5 CA (via PVG), CP
PVG 1 CA
SIN 2 SQ (via ICN)
TPE 11 AE, CP

MEX 2 JL

AMS 4 KL
CDG 3 AC
FRA 15 CP, LH
GLA 3 AC
LHR 25 AC, BA, CP
ZRH 2 AC


Some interesting destinations for sure :D

Note:
KI = Canadian Regional
ZX = AirBC
NV = NWT
HP = American West
QQ = Reno
QX = Horizon

The rest are self explanatory

trofirhen
Apr 1, 2016, 2:22 AM
Naturally, we're doing better now than in 1996.
Nevertheless there were some routes we had then that have since disappeared or greatly reduced.

Singapore and Nagoya are gone.
Miami on AA is gone (7x a week if I'm reading this right)
and MSP 21x a week on Northwest mainline.

Can't really compain, although, but it would be nice to grab a handful more scheduled destinations.

Klazu
Apr 1, 2016, 2:29 AM
Wow, that 1996 international destination list is impressive! Actually, we are not that much better off these days. I was expecting the growth having been much more. Now it seems mostly just gains in China and Australia, but many lost destinations in the South East Asia.

Johnny Aussie
Apr 1, 2016, 3:19 AM
Wow, that 1996 international destination list is impressive! Actually, we are not that much better off these days. I was expecting the growth having been much more. Now it seems mostly just gains in China and Australia, but many lost destinations in the South East Asia.

Crazy huh... mainland China (not incl HKG and not TPE) will have 55 direct flights this summer during peak period compared to only 5 in 1996. Mainland Chinese carriers consisted of only one weekly flight on Air China to PVG/PEK. And Australia/NZ leaps to 22 per week thanks to the new BNE flight.

The South East Asia flights can be easily explained away... CP to BKK was just a 5th freedom flight from HKG to BKK. YVR originating passengers 98% were going to HKG. SQ to SIN we all know the story with that one! And MH to KUL was mainly YVR-TPE local code shared with CP. Without the TPE and ICN tags for SQ or MH we would never have seen either of those carriers here.

And DEL via LHR wasn't technically direct either. Required an a/c switch in LHR so not sure why that was listed.

Again, for a small city like Vancouver still a very impressive list of international routes. And YVR will have 21 overseas carriers when Xiamen launches flights in a few months! And then hopefully another Chinese carrier (or two or three) later this year.

Black Box
Apr 1, 2016, 8:15 AM
While consider the Chinese Population in these cities in West Coast, Seattle is not even close. (source: Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_with_significant_Chinese-American_populations))

San Francisco, CA: 172,181
Los Angeles, CA: 66,782
San Jose, CA: 63,434
San Diego, CA: 35,661
Fremont, CA: 34,678
Oakland, CA: 34,083
Seattle, WA: 27,216

Seattle's Chinese population has been low for quite some time. Seattle will not be close, probably ever. Are these city proper or metro? I live here and still wouldn't know where to begin. Currently, the Eastside of the Seattle metropolitan area is experiencing a burst of growth with people from China. The school districts are top notch, nationally, and one of the big questions for many of the Chinese population settling there is "How far is this property from Bill Gates's estate?"
Also, there is a Chinese movie that people in China refer to when Seattle comes up, which also plays a part in Chinese immigration here. It's called Beijing Meets Seattle (Finding Mr. Right). It's a very popular movie in China, and believe it or not, it was actually shot here, and not in Vancouver, which is usually the case for most movies that are "set" in Seattle.

Black Box
Apr 1, 2016, 8:19 AM
All new, very attractive and much improved website for YVR.

http://yvr.ca/en/passengers


This new YVR site is much better than the last. Kudos!

nname
Apr 1, 2016, 4:47 PM
Also, there is a Chinese movie that people in China refer to when Seattle comes up, which also plays a part in Chinese immigration here. It's called Beijing Meets Seattle (Finding Mr. Right). It's a very popular movie in China, and believe it or not, it was actually shot here, and not in Vancouver, which is usually the case for most movies that are "set" in Seattle.

I've seen the movie and I can identify the location of about 60% of the outdoor scenes and they are indeed shot in Vancouver. (About 5% are scenes from Seattle but none of them contains any actor). If anything, there is no way I can mistaken a KCM bus as a TransLink bus in the background. My friends always joked around and called the movie "Beijing Meets Vancouver" :D

trofirhen
Apr 2, 2016, 12:56 AM
Is there a YVR Destinations Fantasy Thread? Just asking.

Klazu
Apr 2, 2016, 1:19 AM
Isn't that what this thread is 80% of the time? :rolleyes:

Johnny Aussie
Apr 2, 2016, 3:55 AM
Isn't that what this thread is 80% of the time? :rolleyes:

I completely agree. We have all discussed potential routes; some reasonable, some rather far-fetched... over and over. I appreciate the passion of some people's wish lists. But really, please put some thought into them. I really aim to be an optimist but come on people! ;)

For the USA, looking at the realities of the numbers - logistics, geographical location and just plain basic economics of air travel, there are really limited growth options.

Looking at that 1996 list:

CVG was dropped because DL dismantled its hub there.
RNO was dropped because AA dismantled its hub there.
MIA was dropped by AA (and AC)... a really long route - hard to make work (even from SEA only one daily flight exists on an AA 738).

So as discussed before, I think we have BOS, MIA/FLL and maybe PHL as potential routes (the ONLY unserved routes with > 30,000 annual pax). And these three have been tried before, but maybe the numbers are good enough to try again. I can see more ATL and IAD in the future. I doubt we will see DTW back to daily again. Most other destinations just don't have the numbers to make a route viable.

As for International, it's still going to be mainly all about Asia (China mainly). We've discussed the Middle East, India, South-East Asia.... India will happen eventually one day! Europe, limited potential new routes from YVR. South America? Been discussed a lot - sure there may be something in the works but not going to be very much really. More South Pacific? Sure MEL is rumoured and has been discussed a lot.