[SHOFEAR]

whoops

[canucklehead2]

Hopefully the city will also decide to finance the tunnel at the same time so it expansion (even to MacEwan) will happen shortly after Qualico is finished...

[cdnklc]

I swear I thought the lines to Stationlands were already roughed in... or at least the stations... or, and excuse my transportation ignorance, are the ROW's just there?

But 45,000,000 would sound right if you had to bore a hole across 104th..

this portion of the row - not the lines or any actual tunnels for them - has been in place since 1998 and was negotiated and executed between and by cn and the city. we assumed all of cn's obligations under those agreements when we purchased the land (and also corrected some of the alignments so that they actually lined up) and all of the pricing and construction agreements and contracts and design etc. are being determined and set in accordance with the original agreement on a completely open book basis.

and shofear will be happy to know there won't be any "holding hostage" from qualico's perspective - we're taxpayers too. our only criteria is that there be no negative impact on our schedule for delivering completed space on time for epcor.

[Kevin_foster]

this portion of the row - not the lines or any actual tunnels for them - has been in place since 1998 and was negotiated and executed between and by cn and the city. we assumed all of cn's obligations under those agreements when we purchased the land (and also corrected some of the alignments so that they actually lined up) and all of the pricing and construction agreements and contracts and design etc. are being determined and set in accordance with the original agreement on a completely open book basis.

and shofear will be happy to know there won't be any "holding hostage" from qualico's perspective - we're taxpayers too. our only criteria is that there be no negative impact on our schedule for delivering completed space on time for epcor.

^ That would make sense. Thanks.

I was picturing super secret underground tunnels. Damn.

[rapid_business]

So just to clarify, with this 'build immediatly' option, they still would be tunneling under 101 St., correct? Cut and cover obviously if this is the method, but still... they won't run a train at grade across 101, would they?

[Coldrsx]

^correct...the portal is west of 101, south of 105

[Coldrsx]

First step forward for LRT to NAIT
Committee agrees to $45M tunnel even though council hasn't approved full line
Susan Ruttan, edmontonjournal.com
Published: 1:40 pm
EDMONTON - A short but expensive part of Edmonton's new LRT line passed its first hurdle today.

City council's transportation and public works committee approved spending $45 million to build an 180-metre-long tunnel that will eventually be part of a light-rail transit line from downtown to the Northern Alberta Institute of Technology campus.

The decision must still be ratified by the entire council next week.


Email to a friend

Printer friendly
Font:****"The gun's to our head," transportation manager Bob Boutilier explained to councillors. "If this were a perfect world, I wouldn't do it this way."

Council won't vote on the full line to NAIT, expected to cost $800 million, until July. However, a huge Epcor Tower building is about to be built in the path of the proposed LRT line, and transportation planners want to build the LRT tunnel under the building at the same time as the tower's four-storey underground parkade.

That means building the $45-million piece of tunnel under the building starting in June, and leaving the rest of the LRT line until approved by council.

By building now, the city stands to save $140 million in construction costs because the tunnel won't need to be as deep.

Councillors seemed enthusiastic about the project, which will take the LRT from Churchill station west to MacEwan campus, then north to Kingsway Garden Mall and NAIT.

sruttan@thejournal.canwest.com
april 8

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=5c1d9a0c-8733-4632-ad3e-05bf2aaeafb7&k=52640

[ExcaliburKid]

^Nice to see them being proactive for once on a much needed future line.

[Shodan]

April 9, 2008

New downtown LRT tunnel OK'd

By FRANK LANDRY, CITY HALL BUREAU - Edmonton Sun

Next stop, NAIT.

A city committee yesterday gave tentative approval to a plan that will see a $45-million LRT tunnel built under the new downtown EPCOR tower.

It's one small piece of what will eventually be a northwest LRT line to NAIT.

"If we don't do this today, I don't think it will get done," Bob Boutilier, the city's transportation manager, told councillors yesterday.

The transportation and public works committee recommended to council that negotiations begin with the building's developer.

The LRT alignment will follow an underground easement from Churchill Station to the surface on 105 Avenue west of 101 Street.

Boutilier said it would cost up to another $140 million if the tunnel is constructed once the EPCOR building is complete.

Preliminary work has started on EPCOR's sleek 28-storey office tower and is slated to be complete by 2011. It's being erected on the Station Lands - a 3.6-hectare plot owned by development company Qualico near 101 Street and 104 Avenue just north of the CN building.

UNDERNEATH A PARKADE

Boutilier said the tunnel will be more than four storeys below ground, running under a parkade.

If approved, work could begin in the coming months and take about a year to complete, he said.

Tracks won't immediately be built in the tunnel, nor will the connection to the Churchill Station be completed until a later date.

That caused some concern.

"We're not going to have a tunnel that connects to anywhere," said Coun. Ben Henderson.

"We're going to have a tunnel to nowhere."

The entire $800-million LRT line to NAIT has yet to receive final approval from city council. It has, however, been designated as the next route.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Edmonton/2008/04/09/pf-5234411.html

[RTA]

"We're not going to have a tunnel that connects to anywhere," said Coun. Ben Henderson.

"We're going to have a tunnel to nowhere."

What is WRONG with this guy?! He really doesn't understand anything, does he?

[240glt]

Mr. Henderson is definitely turning out to be a big disappointment.

This tunnel is a no-brainer.

[TimB09]

He doesn't seem to get much about this city at all. Problem is, a lot of the NIMBY's will support him in the next election because he is against so many things.

We have a new Mike Nickel on council.

[ZiZiPop]

^ what is he actually for?

[240glt]

Maybe Mike Nickel will run again. I can't decide who's worse.

At least we knew where Mike was coming from. I feel betrayed by Ben.

[TimB09]

Maybe Mike Nickel will run again. I can't decide who's worse.

At least we knew where Mike was coming from. I feel betrayed by Ben.

Yeah, we do. I still wouldn't vote for the guy though. He annoyed me to no end.

[240glt]

Yeah, we do. I still wouldn't vote for the guy though. He annoyed me to no end.

heh... yeah me too.

I had high hopes for Ben... Young, Progressive, Urban minded. He's pretty much failed to deliver on what I expected from him.

[Coldrsx]

Is Ben daft or just doing this to be "that guy" on council?

[newfangled]

And WLRT will affect ward 4 too. So we should probably expect a big "WLRT - what's it good for?" from him on that too. Whoo.

[240glt]

Is Ben daft or just doing this to be "that guy" on council?

Someone whould tell Ben that we already have "that guy" on council. His name is Tony Caterina....Who I am embarassed to say I voted for. Not again.

[Hardhatdan]

Is Henderson mentally challenged?

[IKAN104]

He's not ready for this job. Seriously.

[S_B_Russell]

Ben has an earring - he is obviously stuck in the 80s! ;)

[MalcolmTucker]

It would be absolutely hilarious if council's next move was to authorize the WLRT first for cost and amount of new people it would service reasons.

They should have pushed up the entire debate on NLRT approval to make sure that didn't happen.

[Kevin_foster]

http://www.benhenderson.net/

Contact if needed

[Coldrsx]

^from his site:

"Public transportation

We have become too large a city to depend on private vehicles to solve our transportation problems. We struggle to maintain the roads, let alone build newer and bigger ones. We need another solution. Public transportation works when it is more convenient and affordable than alternatives. It must be properly planned and financed so it becomes a preferred choice for how we travel within the city."

[240glt]

What's written in his website and what he says are two different things.

Can you imagine the collective shrieking if they didn't build this tunnel now, and two years down the road we find out it will cost $250 million to build it ?

[Coldrsx]

^and im sure it would have considering that EPCOR is going ahead...hello need for TBM. Now im sure they can cut and cover west of 101st.

And as if the NLRT line wont go ahead...connecting GMAC, RALEX, KINGSWAY, and NAIT......uh no brainer

[rapid_business]

oh Henderson.... what the heck are you doing? I'm liking this guy less and less everyday.

[e909]

I don't like Henderson, but is it possible he was taken out of context?

I'd be pretty pissed off if the city built a 45 million dollar tunnel to nowhere (and didn't extend it further north).

[Coldrsx]

^it will go somewhere though...the NLRT WILL happen...just that the i's and t's are done yet.

[SHOFEAR]

Is this 45 million for a rectangular concrete box, or is that "fully furnished"?

[itom 987]

"We're not going to have a tunnel that connects to anywhere," said Coun. Ben Henderson. "We're going to have a tunnel to nowhere."


Then you better make sure it goes somewhere.

[Hardhatdan]

Is this 45 million for a rectangular concrete box, or is that "fully furnished"?
Box with all in concrete drainage/mech and I'd guess electrical roughed into concrete, perhaps a precision pour for the track.
No fire line, no signals, no finished electrical would be my guess.

[cdnklc]

Box with all in concrete drainage/mech and I'd guess electrical roughed into concrete, perhaps a precision pour for the track.
No fire line, no signals, no finished electrical would be my guess.

pretty close although i wouldn't think you'll see much for mechanical (no real need for something not connected to anything), likely some adjacent service/access shafts, probably some storm water retention facilities(although they likely won't be needed until the tunnel exits in the future) and the base will likely be accurate but not a precision pour - the final bed isn't likely to be placed until track can be surveyed in...

[cdnklc]

"We're not going to have a tunnel that connects to anywhere," said Coun. Ben Henderson. "We're going to have a tunnel to nowhere."


Then you better make sure it goes somewhere.
and hopefully something worthwhile at both ends - and points in between - to go to and from.

[e909]

Would a stationlands station ever be a possibility?

[Coldrsx]

^there "will" be if a new rink goes there.

[Mikemike]

No. But there might be a station west of 101St if the Arena goes there.

There is a 0% chance that there will be a station between Churchill and Epcor.

[feepa]

Why 0% chance?

Why do you figure that unfinished station will never be used? Too small?

[Coldrsx]

No. But there might be a station west of 101St if the Arena goes there.

There is a 0% chance that there will be a station between Churchill and Epcor.

There DEFINATELY WOULD BE A dedicated station, now defunct, for the stadium if it is on the post office site.

[Mikemike]

The unfinished station is not under stationlands. That's all. It's east of 97St. So no 'Stationlands' Station, but sure, there is a possibility that with churchill, unfinished and baccarat stations stationlands could have a station within one block in each direction, but nothing directly underneath.

[Coldrsx]

to clarify, yes there would be no "stationlands station" per se, but an arena on the corner would be for all intents

[Coldrsx]

Finally, foresight in LRT planning
The Edmonton Journal
Published: 2:34 am
Re: "LRT line likely to go under Epcor: $45M tunnel segment gets committee OK," The Journal, April 9.

Let's hope council gets it right this time.

Usually, we complain about the city not being proactive, and doing things that cost us more in the long run.


Email to a friend

Printer friendly
Font:****However, I like what the city transportation department is proposing. Building a tunnel before the Epcor tower is built will save us $145 million.

I hope we continue with this proactive approach. Let's hope city council follows through and approves the tunnel.

Walid Melhem,

Edmonton




© The Edmonton Journal 2008 - apr 10

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/letters/story.html?id=b3950e5f-b9ce-4f19-b8e3-b9da68213d62

[feepa]

ok - I wasn't meaning right under it - but easily enough to connect via a pedway underground...

[Coldrsx]

Crackdown on fare-evaders saves Edmonton Transit $200,000
Susan Ruttan, edmontonjournal.com
Published: 1:57 pm
EDMONTON - A beefed-up Edmonton Transit security system has cut fare evasion on the LRT trains, boosting revenue by $200,000 a year, says the city auditor.

In his annual report for 2007, auditor David Wiun said that in 2005, the city was losing $967,000 in bus fares and $664,000 in light-rail transit fares annually because of fare evasion.

"Root causes included passengers having no money for the fare, shortchanging the fare payment by using a large number of small coins, using a senior or student pass in place of an adult pass, use of expired transfers and tickets, abuse of ticket booklets through improper validation (stamping on the wrong side or not validating the ticket), and counterfeiting of bus passes," states the report.


View Larger Image
The LRT fills up with passengers at rush hour at Churchill station.
Arnold Lim/Edmonton Journal

Email to a friend

Printer friendly
Font:****Now that transit security is using its officers more proactively to check passengers at LRT stations and bus stops, the losses have dropped, the report states.

It doesn't say how much savings have been seen in fare evasion by bus passengers.

But Wiun says that once Edmonton Transit starts using smart cards, it will be even harder for transit riders to cheat.

His report goes to city council next Wednesday.

sruttan@thejournal.canwest.com




© Edmonton Journal 2008 - apr 11

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=9d060393-a594-479b-bc12-d6930bf023df&k=19676

[rapid_business]

/\ I remember a year or two ago the idea of a 'smart' card (octopus, oyster etc.) came up for LRT (or were buses included?) Any idea if this is actually going to happen? I remember to implement the technology was going to cost $45 million or something?

[Shodan]

West LRT opposition heats up
Community leagues riled even before public meetings begin

Susan Ruttan
The Edmonton Journal

Saturday, April 12, 2008

Frustrated west-end residents say their concerns about a proposed LRT line aren't getting a fair hearing from the city.

"There's a feeling that the consultation process is very much a pro-forma thing," said Lloyd Mildon, vice-president of the Parkview Community League.

No serious effort is being made to find out what people in the area think about a light-rail transit line, he said.

Ray Jacobson, president of the Laurier Heights Community League, said the consultants hired to get public input "know it's a hot-button issue" and are trying not to stir up opposition.

Kaleidoscope Consulting is handling the public consultation for the city.

Spokeswoman Marilyn Steers says critics seem to be expecting more from the consultation process than was ever intended. She said people will get a chance to have their say on the LRT alignment at a public hearing before council's transportation and public works committee. It's been tentatively scheduled for May 20. The current process is not meant to have stakeholders vote yes or no on the LRT line, she said, but to inform them and listen to them.

"So often you go out and work with groups, and they think they've become decision-makers," Steers said. "And there's only one decision-maker."

That's city council.

Jacobson said while some Laurier Heights residents may like the idea of LRT going past their neighbourhood, those he's talked to expressed "strong opposition."

The LRT line proposed by the city transportation department would run along 87th Avenue from Lewis Estates east to a new bridge across the North Saskatchewan River and over to University Avenue near the Cross Cancer Institute.

The line would go underground east of 142nd Street, so as not to affect homes in Parkview and Laurier Heights.

Jacobson worries that when the west LRT line is eventually built, the city council of the day may decide to save money and put the line above ground through the two communities.

The city will hold three open houses on the west LRT line next week. Mildon thinks the drop-in events don't take a proper measure of community feelings, the way a full community meeting does, so Parkview Community League will hold a town hall meeting on the LRT route at the end of April.

"We want to have a meeting where people have a chance to stand up and say their piece," Mildon said.

Opponents are counting on support from Mayor Stephen Mandel, who has been vocal about his preference for putting the west-end line down Stony Plain Road.

In an e-mail to the Parkview league, Mandel said there would be no opportunity for transit-oriented development -- high-rise condo towers and shops -- in a line going through residential Parkview and Laurier Heights.

"By going up Stony Plain Road or 107th Avenue (with the LRT line)," Mandel wrote, "we rekindle those areas for ... new business development and economic opportunity."

A study done for the transportation department found the route straight down 87th Avenue was faster and would have higher ridership than a route across the Quesnell Bridge and along Whitemud Drive and Fox Drive.

The 107th Avenue route was rejected as uncompetitive.

Jacobson and Mildon have been part of a 23-member stakeholder committee that has been talking about west-end transit issues for three years.

ruttan@thejournal.canwest.com

Meetings

West LRT open houses:

- Tuesday, April 15, 5 p.m. to 8 p.m., Alberta School for the Deaf, 6240 113th Street

- Thursday, April 17, 5 p.m. to 8 p.m., Covenant Christian Reformed Church, 19010 87th Ave.

- Saturday, April 19, noon to 3 p.m., St. Rose Junior High School, 8815 145th Street

- Parkview Community League meeting: Wednesday, April 30,

7:30 p.m., Parkview Hall, 9135 146th Street
© The Edmonton Journal 2008

Copyright © 2008 CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest MediaWorks Publications, Inc.. All rights reserved.
CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest MediaWorks Publications, Inc.. All rights reserved.

http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=f787cf49-bce1-40bd-9ae2-ad66c5fc4c7d&k=78617&sponsor=

[rapid_business]

But Mandel didn't mention the TOD possibilities across from the Mis on the 87th Ave line.... It will be interesting to see how this one plays out.

[newfangled]

^ a 107 or SPR line would have to head south around 149/156.

Doing wlrt and missing Meadowlark (and all the potential there) would be dumb.

So all the difference between an 87 route and an SPR/107 route falls between ~111st and 149st. Everything else would be the same.

And people in Laurier like to complain? Who knew? :rolleyes:

[canucklehead2]

Enough with trying to baby all the Laurier Heights NIMBY's with public consultations, lets get those damn shovels in the ground now!

[Shodan]

WHICH WAY YA GOING, WEST END LRT?

Greham Hicks - Edmonton Sun - April 13/08

Sooner rather than later, city council has to decide how the future west end LRT line will make its way from the downtown or existing LRT to the Mighty Mall and beyond.

People and politicians, especially Mayor Steve Mandel, don't like Plan A.

It calls for running the new LRT due west from the existing LRT at the University of Alberta, through posh university neighbourhoods, into the river valley, across a new bridge, tunnelling under the ritzy Laurier Heights before rocketing down 87 Avenue past West Edmonton Mall to Lewis Estates.

Plan A is doomed. It upsets ritzy neighbourhoods and upsets everybody with a passion for an undisturbed river valley. Plus it involves expensive tunnelling.

The transit planners don't like Plan B, where the LRT would head west from the South Campus LRT station along Fox Drive and Whitemud Drive to West Edmonton Mall and beyond.

They say that route has a distinct paucity of customers, i.e. not enough passengers.

An interesting Plan C is circulating at City Hall and on www.Connect2Edmonton.ca discussion forums.

Let's call it the zig-zag route.

Many west enders use it now, driving home from the downtown.

It would start from downtown, off the Jasper Avenue LRT, or even as a spur off the proposed north-west line.

The west end LRT could emerge and run west along what's left of the CN right-of-way along 105 Avenue (now a walkway behind the downtown MacEwan College - convenient for students).

It could angle up to 107 Avenue somewhere between 109 and 120 Streets, head straight west on 107 Avenue, then "zig-zag" down to West Edmonton Mall and points beyond - south on 149 Street, west on 100 Avenue, south on 156 Street around Meadowlark Mall, west on 87 Avenue.

The zig-zag route is most practical: Most of the right-of-ways now exist; passengers are everywhere; there's potential for residential/commercial "infill"; no disruption of the river valley, minimal neighbourhood impact; no new bridges and very little tunnelling, except downtown.

Disadvantage: With all those zigs and zags, it would take longer to get downtown.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Edmonton/2008/04/13/5273486-sun.html

[rapid_business]

/\ That's why PLAN A and C are the ultimate combination. Sure, more expensive, and not feasible in the short-term, but it's perfect in the long-term.

[feepa]

From lightrail on C2E:

http://members.shaw.ca/david.marlor/e1.jpg

[canucklehead2]

Cool map. Although I disagree with certain alignments I think the basics are there. Too bad the way LRT is financed in Canada, it probably won't happen in my lifetime.

What I think we need, is a concerted effort to have at least $1 billion dollars worth of LRT under construction over the next 5-10 years, to build a truly lasting transit legacy, financed by the provincial and federal governments with some money coming from the city, which is probably the most financially pressed level of government there is.

Too bad it probably won't happen with most moronic citizens still voting for decidedly anti-transit governments, if at all...

[MalcolmTucker]

From lightrail on C2E:

http://members.shaw.ca/david.marlor/e1.jpg

Having four lines interline in the downtown tunnel is a recipe for disaster.

The number of train sets to sustain transportation at reasonable frequency for the entire system when the outlying stations are a significant distance out might significantly add to the expense as well. Perhaps single track diesel light rail could be built to connect outlying areas with the light rail terminuses, with land held in reserve to eventually extend the double track.

To get things built, as the person above said requires constant effort from the city to keep it going. They have money from the province in the form of the MSI (just below $3 billion for ten years). Certainly the city will be able to put at least a third of that, hopefully closer to a half into LRT construction.

It still surprises me how cash inefficient these expansions seem to be. I hope it isn't indicative of the costs of future lines or the Line to Mill woods is going to be more than 2 billion by itself!

[canucklehead2]

The downtown subway line, still has quite a bit of capacity in it. If I remember my planning documents correctly, the line was designed to take a five-car train every 90 seconds during peak hours. Right now they operate on a 6 minute frequency. So in theory anyway, trains could still come four times as often before a new line would need to be built. If that was the case in the next 20-30 years, I'd be VERY surprised. And pleased...

[canucklehead2]

Personally what I would like to see, that isn't on the map is a central circle line that continues the subway under Jasper Avenue to 121 Street then up and around to 105 Ave. To me this would be the ideal way to encourage CBD dwellers to almost exclusively use public transit.

And as a distance ETS commuter myself, I can tell you that the longest part of my daily slog to MacEwan's Cheddar block in Jasper Place (Centre for the Arts) is the 20-minute slog along Jasper Avenue from Corona Station to Groat Ravine. If trains ran at least to Oliver, plenty of time could be saved for people like me...

[SHOFEAR]

some genious came up with this on c2e. :yes: the red line goes through a deeper station under churchill.
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6576/lrtroutesnr2.png

[canucklehead2]

Personally I think the solution if and when the Central Loop is ever filled would be to build a 102 Avenue subway, like the original METS plan had envisioned. In many ways, 102 is more of a Main Street to Edmontonians than Jasper is.

[newfangled]

In many ways, 102 is more of a Main Street to Edmontonians than Jasper is.

Really? I think that needs some more explanation.

[rapid_business]

I like that revamped plan a lot better. Works very well IMO.

[MalcolmTucker]

The downtown subway line, still has quite a bit of capacity in it. If I remember my planning documents correctly, the line was designed to take a five-car train every 90 seconds during peak hours. Right now they operate on a 6 minute frequency. So in theory anyway, trains could still come four times as often before a new line would need to be built. If that was the case in the next 20-30 years, I'd be VERY surprised. And pleased...

It might have been possible to go to 90 seconds frequencies when you only have one line. However, everything I had ever read about the Siemens solution both Calgary and Edmonton have indicate that 2 minute headway is the maximum theoretical flow. Interlining also slows down everything alot more than just dividing the capacity. You have the issues with switching, closing track while lines are crossed etc. This would push up the headway aswell.

It is probably generous to state a four line double tracked tunnel could handle 2 minute headways.

[feepa]

It might have been possible to go to 90 seconds frequencies when you only have one line. However, everything I had ever read about the Siemens solution both Calgary and Edmonton have indicate that 2 minute headway is the maximum theoretical flow. Interlining also slows down everything alot more than just dividing the capacity. You have the issues with switching, closing track while lines are crossed etc. This would push up the headway aswell.

It is probably generous to state a four line double tracked tunnel could handle 2 minute headways.
And anyways, the map I posted has 3 lines, with 6 legs...

[MalcolmTucker]

And anyways, the map I posted has 3 lines, with 6 legs...

Not so much, the Blue line has two lines - 201 and 202.

If they were to act as three lines, the split 201 and 202 lines would have great service at 5 trains an hour (every 12 minutes, assuming even split between all three lines and two minute minimum headway)

Thats perfectly acceptable, if you decide that the system should have limited capacity for the future.

Three lines interlining creates big capacity constraints aswell.

Edmontonians on this board like to talk about how putting the LRT underground in the first place was the right choice. Don't let that choice constrain action and limit your choices 40 years later.... You don't have to run four lines in it to validate your choice!

[canucklehead2]

102 Ave is where the Capital X Parade goes (thanks to the bad '80s redesign of Jasper that made it virtually useless for most public events) and where most of the main bus routes in Edmonton meet. If you go to the corner of 101 St and 102 Ave during rush hour and then walk 2 blocks south to Jasper and 101 St. You will really see what I'm talking about.

Plus this corner is also at the heart of the downtown shopping district.


Moving on, even with more lines connecting to the main subway route, I'm sure the line could easily handle trains running every three minutes during rush hour.

[FARup]

Final decision on route rests with city council
The Edmonton Journal
Published: 3:03 am
Re: "West LRT opposition heats up: Community leagues riled even before public meetings begin," The Journal, April 12.

It was unfortunate to see City of Edmonton consultant Marilyn Steers distort the position of the Parkview and Laurier Heights community leagues.

Our position is clear: we feel the city's consultation with residents along the proposed LRT route is a sham, and is simply being done so the administration can say, "Yes, we did extensive consultation."


Email to a friend

Printer friendly
Font:****Steers, who is under contract to the city, is quoted as saying that Parkview and Laurier Heights want decisions on routing to be made by the community leagues. This is an absurd misrepresentation. Never have we even hinted that the final decision should be made by anyone other than city council.

The bottom line is that the proposed LRT route was decided on engineering criteria only. It does not consider opportunities for transit-oriented development or economic revitalization that would be realized if the line was located on, say, Stony Plain Road or 100th Avenue.

It appears more and more like the decision was a foregone conclusion, and the consultation process was an exercise in neutralizing -- not embracing -- citizen input. When the routing was rolled out to the citizens' consultation committee on March 3, we were told to provide our opinions at that very meeting. It was to be done instantly, with no opportunity to consult with our respective community leagues. Is that the city's definition of effective dialogue? Is it any wonder we have so little faith in the "consultation process?"

Lloyd Mildon, vice-president, Parkview Community League

© The Edmonton Journal 2008 - April 15

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/letters/story.html?id=752a6df6-df70-4ff5-aff1-f3049d6a02d1

[FARup]

Consultations a sham

The Edmonton Journal


Tuesday, April 15, 2008


I hate to tell Lloyd Mildon and residents who live near the proposed west LRT line this, but the "community consultation process" is very much a pro-forma thing. The LRT is coming, it will be on the surface, and there is nothing you can do to stop it, change it or otherwise have your concerns heard. The "meetings" are for visual appeal only.

As city consultant Marilyn Steers says, we are expecting consultation. Unfortunately, she counters that with the process of dictatorship -- "there's only one decision-maker." That's city council.

Lesley Moore, Edmonton

© The Edmonton Journal 2008 - April 15

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/letters/story.html?id=2911eb3b-09f1-4508-a510-0322631084ea

[FARup]

Covering the cheaters

The Edmonton Journal


Tuesday, April 15, 2008


Re: "ETS slams door on free rides: Improved security cuts fare cheating by $200,000 a year, auditor says," The Journal, April 11.

Exactly how do city auditors calculate the annual losses because of bus and LRT fare evasion? And if the city know about them, why doesn't it do something to stop them?

Why not cover the losses with city taxes? We already pay for services we don't receive -- like cleaning our streets of dirt or snow, or fixing potholes -- so a little extra tax for transit should not raise many complaints from people who do not use this service.

Eno Damo, St. Albert

© The Edmonton Journal 2008 - April 15

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/letters/story.html?id=4aaf3822-b383-404e-8af2-e9a12cfa3840

[Kevin_foster]

Where are the positive articles Journal!

[RTA]

^ We need to write them.

[newfangled]

Where are the positive articles Journal!

I thought that one on the weekend where the city rep said "there's only one decision-maker" was a positive article. :)

[rapid_business]

About how the proposed route is best for speed, ridership numbers, and TOD's (Medowlark, Miz.)...

[SHOFEAR]

I noticed what looked like a roll test being performed between health sciences and Belgravia station. Hopefully we will start to see some ballast and track put down soon.

[Hardhatdan]

I noticed what looked like a roll test being performed between health sciences and Belgravia station. Hopefully we will start to see some ballast and track put down soon.From Health Sciences to Uni Ave should be first to go. From Uni Ave to Belgravia, as I drove by it today still isn't complete.
There is more work to be done on the North End of the station (Ramps, ped crossings, etc.)
Its a real shame that so little was accomplished over the winter.

[canucklehead2]

Does anyone here have any in depth knowledge of LRT construction time tables? I am curious to know why some projects seem to take a lot of time to build, when they look relatively simple. It is not that I think the contractors for the LRT are not doing a good job, I am just wondering why it takes such a long time to build a leg that is fairly straight-forward, literally...

And if there is anything that can be done to speed up the process. I know shortage of workers might be one reason, as it is in home building, anything else. Does it have to do with the materials themselves?

Every time I go past an LRT construction site I want to be done NOW, not in another year. Especially since these projects have been so damn rare in my lifetime...

[Hardhatdan]

Does anyone here have any in depth knowledge of LRT construction time tables? I am curious to know why some projects seem to take a lot of time to build, when they look relatively simple. It is not that I think the contractors for the LRT are not doing a good job, I am just wondering why it takes such a long time to build a leg that is fairly straight-forward, literally...

And if there is anything that can be done to speed up the process. I know shortage of workers might be one reason, as it is in home building, anything else. Does it have to do with the materials themselves?

Every time I go past an LRT construction site I want to be done NOW, not in another year. Especially since these projects have been so damn rare in my lifetime...
There is nothing simple about the LRT.
Some LRT contractor(s) haven't been doing a good job.

[JAH]

The Bus flyover over Belgravia is coming along nicely. Is that to be completed at the same time South Campus LRT opens up?

[canucklehead2]

Do tell Hardhatdan. Anyone in particular? Was it the same firm behind the bastardized Wayne Gretzky update, lol? That was a major mess wasn't it...

I'm interested to know how fast (in theory this is) could an LRT line physically be built if there were enough workers, materials, etc. I'm talking Alaskan Highway, Oil Sands or Burj Dubai style mega-project with thousands of workers hired at once...

[feepa]

The contractor doing the section between health sciences and 76ave station is 6-8 months behind schedule.
South of there, the track is already in place all the way to South Campus station.

[leendert]

Do tell Hardhatdan. Anyone in particular? Was it the same firm behind the bastardized Wayne Gretzky update, lol? That was a major mess wasn't it...

I'm interested to know how fast (in theory this is) could an LRT line physically be built if there were enough workers, materials, etc. I'm talking Alaskan Highway, Oil Sands or Burj Dubai style mega-project with thousands of workers hired at once...
Pentagon structures was the general? contractor on the McKernan/Belgravia station and the track between University Ave and Belgravia. They recently removed their signs from the fences along the project. Maybe they were embarrassed, because they will probably finish close to a year behind schedule.
Their accomplishment this winter has basically been the building of a wall on the west side of the track bed and little bits of station work.

South of University avenue, track installation is well underway, with three lines south of the South Campus station fully installed, and one line along and to the north of South Campus station.

[leendert]

I stopped by the WLRT open house tonight. There was not much new information presented. They played a pre-recorded WLRT presentation with some narration alongside it. I did not have the time to speak to any planners that were there.

One tidbit that I did pick up is that a Stony Plain Road alignment is under study as well. Maybe the Laurier residents will be placated after all...

[canucklehead2]

Are they doing CWR concrete or conventional bolted onto wood and ballast?

[mersar]

Are they doing CWR concrete or conventional bolted onto wood and ballast?

Pictures that have been posted show that its concrete ties with CWR around South Campus, so probably more of the same. Wood isn't used that often for LRT anymore.

[canucklehead2]

Which is probably why LRT is so damn expensive to build these days... I read an article in Railway Age talking about engineering creep. LRT was designed to be an affordable and flexible alternative to Rapid Transit. But now contractors and engineers are designing modern LRT to be built virtually the same as RT, hence why construction costs per mile have been soaring...

[Hardhatdan]

LRT lifespan is designed for 100 years of service. That is why you see the costs and "over-engineering" of these extensions.

[canucklehead2]

I'm still skeptical that concrete will last 100 years in our climate, especially when I see plenty of new projects cracking and flaking after just a decade or so...

[CanadianLiberal]

Not so much, the Blue line has two lines - 201 and 202.

If they were to act as three lines, the split 201 and 202 lines would have great service at 5 trains an hour (every 12 minutes, assuming even split between all three lines and two minute minimum headway)

Thats perfectly acceptable, if you decide that the system should have limited capacity for the future.

Three lines interlining creates big capacity constraints aswell.

Edmontonians on this board like to talk about how putting the LRT underground in the first place was the right choice. Don't let that choice constrain action and limit your choices 40 years later.... You don't have to run four lines in it to validate your choice!

I can't help but thing that running all the trains in on tunnel is going to create the same problems which Calgary is currently facing. An overcrowded downtown route.

I would imagine that some of the newer lines, could be run using a low floor system in a new tunnel. There is an over all cost saving, as the new lines would not need level boarding platforms. And tunnels have become easier to build using tunnel bouring machines.

[feepa]

Calgary's downtown stations are only 3 cars long (expanding to 4). Edmonton's are all 5... this increases capacity right away. Edmonton doesn't have to deal with lights and other things on the street level that prevent the train from going very fast downtown Calgary.

[feepa]

from: http://www.alberta.ca/home/CapRegionFiles/CRIGMP_Core_Infrastructure_November_2007_Section_5.pdf

http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/4170/ablrtnz4.jpg

[MalcolmTucker]

Calgary's downtown stations are only 3 cars long (expanding to 4). Edmonton's are all 5... this increases capacity right away. Edmonton doesn't have to deal with lights and other things on the street level that prevent the train from going very fast downtown Calgary.

The issue here isn't speed, not even capacity (if you think a 5 car train running every 8 minutes provides enough capacity so be it, it would be ~6k/direction)

It is headway, which creates diseconomies of density on the outer lines.

If the system develops with four line sin one tunnel, the waiting times for a direct trip would average 4 minutes, while the average for a transfer between lines trip would be 8 minutes of waiting.

That amount of station waiting time has a large effect of whether people will actually come to use. Also the system could become very crowded, and service frequency would noticeably drop on existing services.

[Beltliner]

The issue here isn't speed, not even capacity (if you think a 5 car train running every 8 minutes provides enough capacity so be it, it would be ~6k/direction)

It is headway, which creates diseconomies of density on the outer lines.

If the system develops with four line sin one tunnel, the waiting times for a direct trip would average 4 minutes, while the average for a transfer between lines trip would be 8 minutes of waiting.

That amount of station waiting time has a large effect of whether people will actually come to use. Also the system could become very crowded, and service frequency would noticeably drop on existing services.

Case in point--the well-nigh-mythical Downtown Relief Line in Toronto is being reconsidered, and one option that has been mooted on Steve Munro's blog (http://stevemunro.ca/?p=806) is to tie together Transit City's Jane and Don Mills lines with a light rail or light metro connection. The general idea is that this option would run short turns through downtown Toronto to Bloor-Danforth interchanges at Jane and Pape, simultaneously with trains covering all of all three legs, and perhaps with short turns at Eglinton Crosstown interchanges. Leaving aside the obvious question of how well short turns would go over in Calgary and Edmonton LRT service*, something's gotta give when you're running combined (let's say) two-minute headways from Union along the DRL, two-minute headways from Union to Eglinton, and two-minute headways from Union to Jane x Finch and Don Mills x Sheppard. The mathematics and logistics involved I will leave as an exercise for the board. ;)

_____________________
* Three words, the first being "not", and the third being "likely".

[feepa]

Lets explore/ worry about capacity of the tunnel when we start running even remotely close to max capacity.

For now, Running 2 lines (4 legs) is not going to get us to capacity. It's taken Edmonton 30+ years to build 2 legs, and I bet another 20 to build the next 2 legs.

The tunnel should be able to support 2 lines with 2 legs each

NLRT <-> SLRT
and
WLRT <--> NELRT

Beyond that, for the SELRT, another tunnel/route through downtown will need to be considered. If/when that happens, and same for any other further expansions beyond that point

[S_B_Russell]

Residents suggest re-routing west LRT to avoid residential areas
Hanneke Brooymans, The Edmonton Journal
Published: 3:03 am
Hundreds of people braved the snow Saturday to crowd into an open house so they could learn more about the proposed west Edmonton LRT route.
Many in the audience questioned whether to follow the recommended route along 87th Avenue from Lewis Estates to the North Saskatchewan River. The line would cross the river on a bridge and eventually hook up with the existing Health Sciences station, but residents suggested the city consider two other options.
"My primary concern is the disruption of well-established residential neighbourhoods," said Pat Long, who lives at 149th Street and 82nd Avenue. "They should be looking at commercial corridors."


Long likes the potential for going along Stony Plain Road. She told the open house facilitators she'd like to see results from a study on that route before the public hearing May 20 at city council's transportation and public works committee.
A handout said the results would be available later without specifying the date.
"City council is being unfair to this residential community and not presenting us with all the alternatives," Long said.
About 220 people attended the session at St. Rose junior high school in Parkview, where the tracks would go underground until the river.
Diana Rhodes asked planners why they weren't considering a route from the Stadium LRT station along 111th Avenue or 112th Avenue. Land is cheaper in that area, she said. The line would provide access to Chinatown, the Glenrose and Royal Alexandra hospitals and Kingsway Garden mall, she said, adding that west-side residents could ride the LRT to events at Commonwealth Stadium. Her comments prompted applause from the audience.
But one of the open house facilitators, Hassan Shaheen with ISL Engineering, said there were only so many key destinations the LRT line could hit and those have been chosen for maximum effect. "You begin to meander if you try to hit everything," he said, adding that the route becomes unattractive to transit riders if it takes too long to reach a destination.
hbrooymans@thejournal.canwest.com


© The Edmonton Journal 2008
http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=13064de6-757e-4b74-86ee-03519c1e98e4

[rapid_business]

/\ Commonwealth, unfortunately, is not a major destination 345 days of the year.

[RTA]

^ Yeah, good idea, let's build it where few people live, where few people need to go, just because it's cheaper. Brilliant.

[feepa]

^ Theres a reason these community leagues and members in general aren't city planners, or engineers...etc.

[rapid_business]

Cheaper, and not in their community.

[Shodan]

Fight over LRT gears up

By KEVIN CRUSH, SUN MEDIA - April 28, 2008

West-end residents are gearing up to fight a proposed LRT line through their neighbourhood.

Lloyd Mildon, vice-president of the Parkview Community League, said he's hoping there will be a big crowd at a May 20 public hearing on the West LRT concept plan, taking rail transit from the University of Alberta to West Edmonton Mall and then Lewis Estates.

"We certainly hope so," said Mildon. "All I can tell you is there has been a great deal of concern over this."

The proposed route calls for the line to leave the University Health Sciences terminal and travel underneath University Avenue to the North Saskatchewan River, where it would cross on a new bridge.

It would then go underground again until resurfacing near 142 Street on 87 Avenue. The line would continue west along 87 Avenue to Lewis Estates with stops at the Meadowlark Shopping Centre and West Edmonton Mall.

With the line moving through a mature, mostly residential neighbourhood with few stops along the way, Mildon questioned the need to drive the line down

87 Avenue.

"If this was the only way of getting it there and there were no other options and this was an area that needed to be economically revitalized, we wouldn't be excited about it but we could understand it," he said.

"But when you look at the plan and compare it to some of the alternatives that were eliminated, we really think that there are other ways of doing this that are not being properly considered."

The Parkview Community League is holding its own information session on the LRT extension Wednesday at the Parkview Hall at 7:30 p.m.

Laurier Heights resident Paul Marck is against the proposed route, preferring instead to see it built along the Whitemud, where it could stop at places like Fort Edmonton Park.

"The engineers seem to be throwing up a lot of roadblocks and ignoring the essence of what the LRT would do, which is move people to and pick people up at popular stops like malls and tourist attractions," said Marck.

The non-statutory public hearing goes ahead May 20 at 1:30 p.m. in City Hall council chambers.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Edmonton/2008/04/28/pf-5406866.html

[etown]

^In most cities access to public transit actually increases property values.

Is gas cheaper in west end or something?

[240glt]

Residents in gentrified, mature single family neighborhoods have always viewed mass transit as the enemy.