[sammyk]

I know you didn't say that, the point is even older aircraft have ETOPS and has nothing to do with the age of the plane.

That pilot probably started off in a 737 before being promoted to a 757. Once you've had the training, sure you can go back to it. Also, what do you mean "helped" pilot?

Crews are not trained to fly "various Boeing planes". Ever heard of pilot pools? A set of pilots for a 747, one for 777, etc. This is part of why large airlines can have different types of planes.

[Daquan13]

Well, the captain very well can't fly the plane alone without the copilot or first officer.

It's against FAA rules. If even so much as one crew member is not present, be it a flight attendant or one of the pilots, the plane goes nowhere.

It stays at the gate.

You'll have to do some research, I'm afaraid. It appears that no matter how I try to explain this to you, you don't seem to want to believe me.

And it also saves the airlines money because being able to assign the same crew to another Boeing jetliner gives them the added edge. And the larger the plane they fly, the more the pilots get paid.

[sammyk]

OK, so that's what you meant by "help". I thought there was some situation where his assistance was needed.

That's right, I don't believe you. What I do believe is that you're wrong. If the pilot was trained for a 757 then why was he flying a 737? Was he given training for a 757 for some future promotion?

[Daquan13]

I'm not wrong. I know what I'm talking about.

And he must have flown the 757 to know what he prefers to fly better. I tried to tell you that the same pilots can switch between the 757 and the 737 and not be trained for both.

Modern technological advances in aviation allows for this. And Airbus also does this, BTW. Their planes are also designed where the same pilots can fly either model with no problems.

[urbanflyer]

I tried to tell you that the same pilots can switch between the 757 and the 737 and not be trained for both.

Hogwash. Pilots must maintain a current type rating to be legal to fly a given aircraft. One cannot simply switch from 757 to 737 whenever they please without a required simulator retraining program and proficiency check. Type ratings must be renewed annually by simulator proficiency checks. The only common type rating in the Boeing family in which certificate holders can switch between aircraft is the 757/767.

And it also saves the airlines money because being able to assign the same crew to another Boeing jetliner gives them the added edge. And the larger the plane they fly, the more the pilots get paid.

Cost savings is the idea behind cockpit commonality but there's much more to it than that. Pay scales are fixed by type rating, seniority, and block status. There are many cases where aircraft size isn't the whole story - a longtime 737 captain could easily make more than a 747 first officer.

All Boeing jetliners' cockpits just about DO share the same commonality. This is so that a crew of two who fly the 757 can also fly the 737, 757 or the 777....Either way, retrained or not, the same crew are always prepared to fly various Boeing planes regardless. This is due in anticipation and in case of an equipment change - if a 757 has to be taken out of service because of a mechnical problem, the crew can be assigned to and fly a 737.

This is flat 100% wrong. You never worked in Operations, so you have no clue as to the nightmare that equipment changes create! Try finding a spare aircraft, and if it's a different kind of plane (excluding 757/767), an available crew legal to fly it. Legal meaning they are type rated and current, AND are within legal limits for flight and duty time.

If any crew could just go from 737 to 777 at a whim, the FAA and JAA wouldn't require type ratings and the airlines wouldn't spend millions of dollars a year on training and recertification by aircraft type. It's ridiculous to suggest anything otherwise because it just ain't reality. :rolleyes:

[Daquan13]

I tried to tell you that the same pilots can switch between the 757 and the 737 and not be trained for both.

Hogwash. Pilots must maintain a current type rating to be legal to fly a given aircraft. One cannot simply switch from 757 to 737 whenever they please without a required simulator retraining program and proficiency check. Type ratings must be renewed annually by simulator proficiency checks. The only common type rating in the Boeing family in which certificate holders can switch between aircraft is the 757/767.

And it also saves the airlines money because being able to assign the same crew to another Boeing jetliner gives them the added edge. And the larger the plane they fly, the more the pilots get paid.

Cost savings is the idea behind cockpit commonality but there's much more to it than that. Pay scales are fixed by type rating, seniority, and block status. There are many cases where aircraft size isn't the whole story - a longtime 737 captain could easily make more than a 747 first officer.

All Boeing jetliners' cockpits just about DO share the same commonality. This is so that a crew of two who fly the 757 can also fly the 737, 757 or the 777....Either way, retrained or not, the same crew are always prepared to fly various Boeing planes regardless. This is due in anticipation and in case of an equipment change - if a 757 has to be taken out of service because of a mechnical problem, the crew can be assigned to and fly a 737.

This is flat 100% wrong. You never worked in Operations, so you have no clue as to the nightmare that equipment changes create! Try finding a spare aircraft, and if it's a different kind of plane (excluding 757/767), an available crew legal to fly it. Legal meaning they are type rated and current, AND are within legal limits for flight and duty time.

If any crew could just go from 737 to 777 at a whim, the FAA and JAA wouldn't require type ratings and the airlines wouldn't spend millions of dollars a year on training and recertification by aircraft type. It's ridiculous to suggest anything otherwise because it just ain't reality. :rolleyes:



Bullcrap. You're flat out 100% wrong.

I never once said that pilots could jump all the way up from the 737, skipping the aircraft in between, to the 777. Where did you read that? I said that the planes all have practically the same stuff in the cockpit. And that IS the known truth.

So what? I damn sure don't have to work in ops to know some of the things that I do about pilots and commercial airliners!! Who do you think told me some of these things before? Certainly, not you!:rolleyes:

Hello, I beg your pardon. Go back and do some research. Planes can be ferried in empty or with pax and cargo from another city to get the passengers here out and on their way to their destinations Having worked in Ops Mr. Einstien, you shold have known that. But I guess you don't.:rolleyes:

I've seen it happen a lot with United. AND YES, IT HAS BEEN DONE WITH THE 767-300 AND THE 747-400 IN BOSTON AND OTHER PLACES WHERE I'VE TRAVELED WITH UNITED!!

I DO know what the nightmarish problems planes out of service can cause. I worked for United for 16 years dammit, and if I didn't learn anything from working for the nation's 2nd largest carrier for that many years, well THEN crack the whip:whip: , put a dunce hat on my head and make me sit in a corner like a little boy!!! You were probably only knee-high to a June bug yourself at that time.:hell:

And I keep trying to tell you that pilots can easily fly either plane as long as they are certified and qualified to do it, but you and a few others just plain stubbornly flatly refuse to believe it, so you're on your own now.

And BTW, I know about seniority. A 737 pilot who has just started flying for an airline simply can't gorilla his way to the top without accruing some seniority first. It DOES take time to get to fly the big boss - the 777 and 747 unless the pilot was already trained for it.:P

And yes, they are, and must be certified by the FAA to fly certain planes, and must be recertified if they want to fly another model.

Some pilots are happy just flying the 737 or the 757, depending on their personal preferences.

[sammyk]

Aside from the fact that the very same avionics and navigation sytems in the 757's cockpit are now incorporated into the 73G's flight deck as well. As a matter of fact, ALL of Boeing's planes have the same stuff in the cockpit to make flying them the same. This is so that the pilots can have the same commonality from one plane to the other without having to be trained again to fly either the 73G, 757, 747, 767 or the 777.


And I keep trying to tell you that pilots can easily fly either plane as long as they are certified and qualified to do it, but you and a few others just plain stubbornly flatly refuse to believe it, so you're on your own now.


Gee, how do those pilots get certified and qualified on the different types? Think it's the training that you claim they don't need??

[Daquan13]

Gee. You and Urbanflyer seem to have digrees in rocket science and seem to know so much, why don't you two try to figure it out?:shrug:

I'm through trying to tell you because you're both just too stubborn to listen.:rolleyes:

[urbanflyer]

16 years cleaning cabins doesn't equal fantastic knowledge.

I never once said that pilots could jump all the way up from the 737, skipping the aircraft in between, to the 777. Where did you read that? I said that the planes all have practically the same stuff in the cockpit. And that IS the known truth......This is so that a crew of two who fly the 757 can also fly the 737, 757 or the 777....Either way, retrained or not, the same crew are always prepared to fly various Boeing planes regardless.

Still claim you didn't say it?

And I keep trying to tell you that pilots can easily fly either plane as long as they are certified and qualified to do it, but you and a few others just plain stubbornly flatly refuse to believe it

Sure, they easily could but it wouldn't be legal.

Planes can be ferried in empty or with pax and cargo from another city to get the passengers here out and on their way to their destinations

Ferry flights don't negate requirements for crew rest vs. duty time. Same challenges are faced when replacing an aircraft.

Yeah, really does seem like the 777 and 757 have "all the same stuff" :rolleyes:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/Boeing_777_Cockpit.jpg/799px-Boeing_777_Cockpit.jpg

http://membres.lycos.fr/avya87/757e.jpg

And BTW, I know about seniority.

Didn't seem like you did when you said that pilot pay is based on aircraft size.

[Daquan13]

Dammit, I'm well aware that the 777 is much more advanced in the cockpit than the 757. I'm dead sick of you trying to make the job I did for United seem like crap or no class and making nasty smart remarks about it. Our job was just as important as yours and everyone else's there!!

But I guess you've really earned your brownie points working in Ops because they must be paying off.. Is that how you gained so much so-called knowllege there?

You don't seem to know as much as you do, having worked in Ops, because if you did, you'd know that when an aircraft is taken out of service, one can be ferried in if it's needed bad enough to get the people out.

And BTW, I've learned some things in Ops just by visiting them, so put a sock in it. I'm sick of you now. Goodbye!!

[sammyk]

Unfortunately it is you that is being stubborn. You just have to be able to accept that you are wrong.

[Daquan13]

No, I'm not wrong.

And that's that.

[sammyk]

How can you say "that's that"? What sort of authority are you? You are clearly wrong and have been proven so but you insist otherwise. You can't say you're right just because you think you're right.

[Daquan13]

How can you say "that's that"? What sort of authority are you? You are clearly wrong and have been proven so but you insist otherwise. You can't say you're right just because you think you're right.



Hey look, I'm done with this crap. You don't want to believe me, that's YOUR damn problem, not mine. You're both stubborn, unreasonable and bullheaded!!

And as for Urbanflyer, he says that I'm a piece of work? Well, I won't tell HIM what HE'S a piece of.

I'm not talking to either of you now. Both of you dillusional disfunctional nut jobs are on my ignore list, so the both of you can put a sock in it, go sit on an egg and get a damn life!! Goodbye.:koko:

[James Bond Agent 007]

OK guys let's quit the bickering over dumb stuff and start talking about Boeing booming again.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/293086_boeingkorea21.html

Tuesday, November 21, 2006
Boeing sells 25 more planes
Korean Air deal also includes options for 8 additional jets
By JAMES WALLACE
P-I AEROSPACE REPORTER

The Boeing Co. late Monday added a significant order to what already has been one of its best years ever for jetliner sales.

Korean Air plans to buy 25 passenger jets and freighters worth about $5.3 billion at list price. The order, expected to be firmed up within a couple of weeks, includes Boeing's 777 and 747-8 freighters that are still in development.

But the airline passed, at least for now, on the passenger version of the new 747-8.

Korean Air previously ordered five A380s from Airbus. That plane, which is two years late, is bigger than the 747.

A signing ceremony with Boeing, which took place in a Seoul, South Korea, hotel, came just a few days after the A380 visited South Korea as part of its final test-flight program. A person familiar with details of the Boeing order said Korean Air wanted to wait until the hoopla around the A380's visit had died down before announcing that it was buying the Boeing jets.

Korean Air will buy 10 777- 300ERs, five 777-200 freighters, five 747-8 freighters and five 737s. It also took options to buy four more 777-300ERs, two 747-8 freighters and two more 737s.

"The addition of Boeing's aircraft to our fleet will play an integral part in our development to become a leader in the world's aviation industry," Yang Ho Cho, the airline's chairman and chief executive, said.

Korean Air, the world's largest cargo carrier, already operates a number of Boeing jets in its fleet of more than 100 planes, including the 777-300ER as well as 747 freighters and passenger planes. The 777-300ERs will replace those 747 passenger planes, the airline said.

Last year, Korean Air ordered 10 of Boeing's new 787 Dreamliners for delivery starting in 2009.

Even before Monday's order, Boeing had sold more than 800 planes this year. It could end 2006 with more orders than its record sales of 2005, when it won 1,002 net orders.

Although Airbus has done well this year selling its single-aisle A320 family of jets, it has lagged far behind Boeing in the market for the bigger jets, where Boeing's 777, 787 and 747-8 freighter are dominating. Airbus has been hurt by delays in its A380 program and has not yet started development of the A350, a plane that will compete against the 777 and the 787. Last week, FedEx canceled an order for 10 A380 freighters, saying it instead ordered 15 777 freighters.

Boeing has not beaten Airbus in total orders since 2000, but even Airbus executives acknowledge they won't pass Boeing in orders this year.

[urbanflyer]

This is an excellent move for KE. It comes on the same day Philippine Air Lines has also chosen the 777 over the A346.

[Daquan13]

OK guys let's quit the bickering over dumb stuff and start talking about Boeing booming again.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/293086_boeingkorea21.html

Tuesday, November 21, 2006
Boeing sells 25 more planes
Korean Air deal also includes options for 8 additional jets
By JAMES WALLACE
P-I AEROSPACE REPORTER

The Boeing Co. late Monday added a significant order to what already has been one of its best years ever for jetliner sales.

Korean Air plans to buy 25 passenger jets and freighters worth about $5.3 billion at list price. The order, expected to be firmed up within a couple of weeks, includes Boeing's 777 and 747-8 freighters that are still in development.

But the airline passed, at least for now, on the passenger version of the new 747-8.

Korean Air previously ordered five A380s from Airbus. That plane, which is two years late, is bigger than the 747.

A signing ceremony with Boeing, which took place in a Seoul, South Korea, hotel, came just a few days after the A380 visited South Korea as part of its final test-flight program. A person familiar with details of the Boeing order said Korean Air wanted to wait until the hoopla around the A380's visit had died down before announcing that it was buying the Boeing jets.

Korean Air will buy 10 777- 300ERs, five 777-200 freighters, five 747-8 freighters and five 737s. It also took options to buy four more 777-300ERs, two 747-8 freighters and two more 737s.

"The addition of Boeing's aircraft to our fleet will play an integral part in our development to become a leader in the world's aviation industry," Yang Ho Cho, the airline's chairman and chief executive, said.

Korean Air, the world's largest cargo carrier, already operates a number of Boeing jets in its fleet of more than 100 planes, including the 777-300ER as well as 747 freighters and passenger planes. The 777-300ERs will replace those 747 passenger planes, the airline said.

Last year, Korean Air ordered 10 of Boeing's new 787 Dreamliners for delivery starting in 2009.

Even before Monday's order, Boeing had sold more than 800 planes this year. It could end 2006 with more orders than its record sales of 2005, when it won 1,002 net orders.

Although Airbus has done well this year selling its single-aisle A320 family of jets, it has lagged far behind Boeing in the market for the bigger jets, where Boeing's 777, 787 and 747-8 freighter are dominating. Airbus has been hurt by delays in its A380 program and has not yet started development of the A350, a plane that will compete against the 777 and the 787. Last week, FedEx canceled an order for 10 A380 freighters, saying it instead ordered 15 777 freighters.

Boeing has not beaten Airbus in total orders since 2000, but even Airbus executives acknowledge they won't pass Boeing in orders this year.



No problem.

And the hits just keep on coming with Boeing!!! Business is really booming there!!

[bnk]

Boeing wins another multibillion-dollar order

Nov. 28, 2006
(Reuters) — Boeing Co. won its second multibillion-dollar order in as many weeks on Tuesday, as German airline Air Berlin said it would buy 60 of its 737 jets, worth about $4.2 billion at list prices.
The deal comes on top of 15 orders for 737s that Air Berlin picked up in August when it acquired rival German carrier DBA, and a further 10 737s from a previous Air Berlin order.
Overall, Germany's No. 2 airline is now set to receive 85 of the single-aisle jets, worth about $5.7 billion at list prices.
The order is the largest ever for 737s from Germany, and comes a week after Boeing received a $5.5 billion order for 25 passenger and freighter aircraft from Korean Air Co.
The recent run of orders extends Boeing's lead over European rival Airbus, which has been struggling with an array of design and production problems on its commercial jets.
Not including the new Air Berlin order, the U.S. planemaker has 822 firm orders on its books so far this year, ahead of Airbus with 619.
Boeing is staging a comeback after being beaten by Airbus, which is majority owned by EADS, in annual plane orders for the past five years. Boeing may yet break its own record order figure of 1,002 last year.
The 737-800 Next Generation aircraft are to be delivered between 2007 and 2014. Air Berlin's DBA unit is to receive 25 of the planes.
Air Berlin's most recent plane orders were with Airbus in 2004, when it ordered 10 A320 jets. The return to Boeing stems from Air Berlin's acquisition of DBA, which already had Boeing 737s on order. The carrier said it plans to maintain both Airbus and Boeing planes in its fleet, which currently numbers 62 aircraft.
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=22998

[Daquan13]

Yay for Boeing!!!

The 737 is their best-selling jetliner ever, and it does not look like it will slow down in sales either.

If anything, the plane seems to just get better and better!

[munkyman]

For all you die hard Boeing fans out there:
From Businessweek:
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/dec2006/db20061205_628913.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_top+story


Boeing Scores a Jumbo Coup
Lufthansa plans to order Boeing’s new stretch version of the 747, in a decision that deals a severe blow to rival giant-plane maker Airbus by Stanley Holmes

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Lufthansa, Germany's largest airline and one of Airbus' biggest customers, is expected to announce Wednesday a firm order for 20 of Boeing's new 747-8 passenger airplanes and 20 options—thus ensuring another two decades of passenger service for the iconic jumbo jet known as the "Queen of the Skies."

The Lufthansa board is planning to meet Wednesday and approve the purchase of the 20 Boeing jumbo jets, which are valued at $5 billion at list prices, say people familiar with the negotiations. It would make Lufthansa the launch customer for Boeing's redesigned and upgraded passenger version of the 747-8, now known as the "Intercontinental." (see BusinessWeek.com, 11/15/05, "Boeing's Reborn 747"). Boeing officials declined to comment. Lufthansa officials couldn't be reached.

The sale would be a huge coup for Chicago-based Boeing. It would indicate to airlines that there is a credible competitor to the Airbus A380 super-jumbo, thus diluting the profits Airbus had hoped to make on its big jetliner. Since the launch of the A380, Boeing had offered many passenger variations, but no airlines were willing to buy an aircraft that was first built in 1968. Sales of the 747-400 passenger version had virtually dried up, and industry observers were writing its obituary.

Bad News for Airbus
But Boeing's 747 jet has experienced a dramatic reversal of fortune. New, efficient engines from the 787 Dreamliner program were key to bolstering the range and the lower operating economics that finally made the aging jumbo attractive again. With new, efficient engines and new 787 interiors for the passenger version, the Chicago aerospace giant has captured record sales for its new 747-8 freighter and will now be a player in the passenger market for airplanes that carry 400 or more passengers.

It was a market that Airbus had hoped to monopolize with its A380, which seats 555 people in three classes. The 747-8 Intercontinental can carry up to 460 passengers in three classes, but its fuel and aerodynamic efficiency means it can match the bigger A380's seat-mile costs—a key barometer in airplane economics.

"This is as good as it's going to get," says Teal Co. aerospace analyst Richard Aboulafia. "Boeing was able to get a European based, dedicated Airbus customer to be the first to endorse its new 747 passenger version. It's a blow to the Airbus A380."

Indeed. The numerous production problems that caused Airbus to delay delivery of its all-new A380 up to two years have been a pleasant boon for Boeing's 747 family of airplanes (see BusinessWeek.com, 10/24/06, "The A380 Crisis: What Now for Airbus?"). The biggest beneficiary so far has been the 747-8 freighter, which also is equipped with the more efficient 787 engines. Since Boeing launched the freighter version in November, 2005, the company has notched 44 firm orders—most recently an order for five from Korean Air Lines.

While the Lufthansa order is a huge win for Boeing's 747 program, this does not mean the German carrier aims to replace its A380 order with new Boeing jumbo jets. Lufthansa plans to operate both jets on different flights. The A380 is designed for high-volume routes such as Europe to Asia, whereas the new 747 will fly below that and likely operate from Europe to the U.S., say people familiar with the matter.

Even despite the A380 delays, Europe's first super-jumbo jet still has strong support from key airlines such as Emirates, Qantas, Air France, and Singapore. The chief executive of Singapore Airlines, Chew Choon Seng, reiterated his strong support for the A380 as recently as Nov. 28, when he visited Seattle to take delivery of a new Boeing 777-300ER (extended range).

In an interview, Chew said it was unlikely Singapore would buy the new 747-8 Intercontinental, even though he described the 747 as "central to the Singapore success story." He went on to say that "new products come along which are more cost-effective, more fuel-efficient, and feature later technology. And so its place will be taken." But Chew added that if the A380 continues to have production problems, he could change his mind. "The 747-8 would be a lot more interesting to us should the A380 not make it into service, given the issues that have surrounded it," he said. "I don't think that will be an eventuality, but you never know."

FedEx' New Orders
What's more, chances look even better for Boeing to dominate—if not monopolize—the air-freight market, since there are questions about whether Airbus will even build its freighter version of the A380. Boeing already controls about 90% of the world's air-freight capacity. Airbus hoped to change that with its A380 freighter. But the program suffered a near-fatal blow recently when Federal Express canceled its order for 10 A380 freighters. Instead, it bought 15 Boeing 777 freighters. "It was huge for us," said Jim Edgar, Boeing's director of cargo marketing. "Federal Express is the largest air-cargo carrier in the world. They're a trend setter, and everybody watches their decision."

International Lease Finance Corp., the world's largest airplane-leasing company, followed Federal Express' lead and converted its five A380 freighter orders to passenger versions. Now the only remaining customer for the A380 freighter is United Parcel Service. Analysts believe it's only a matter of time before Airbus cancels or delays its freighter program. "It looks like Airbus will have to cancel or shelve its freighter version of the A380 to save money, since it likely won't be able to justify the development cost for one customer," Aboulafia says. "With the Lufthansa order, Boeing is not only validating its 747 passenger version but is now poised to dominate the large freighter market, if not monopolize it for years to come."

News of the pending announcement sent Boeing shares up 1.3%, to $90.73, at 4 p.m. in trading Dec. 5 on the New York Stock Exchange.

[WonderlandPark]

^^ Holy crap, Luftansa for the 747-8i? Shocked. But then again, this may be political, Airbus may be forced to take the full A380 production line to Toulouse and dump the German production/subcontractor line for the superjumbo. I would still be suprised if they pulled the trigger and made firm orders for it. Wow if they did do it.

And I thought all along the Fedex switch was the mother of all blows to the A380 freighter. Like the article said, they are the market leader, and if the 777 can do the job for them on two engines, then so be it. I would still love for the A380 to succeed, don't get me wrong.

[urbanflyer]

Everything in the rumor mill indicates that this is for real and will be confirmed by the end of the week.

This deal will also give LH a fantastic negotiating position for getting heavy discounts on freighter conversions for their existing 747-400 fleet...something they've been after for awhile now.

[Nowhereman1280]

Wow, Boeing continues to amaze me! What a turn around, going from looking like they were losing the battle for the global airplane market to Airbus a year or two ago, to kicking Airbus' ass now. I guess that's what happens to companies when they move to Chicago! :D

[JiminyCricket II]

yep, the 10 employees in Chicago do a ton of work.

[GioFX]

Congrats for LH, Boeing and Airbus...

LH is going to have the younger fleet in Europe with the A330/A340/A380 and the new 747... Boeing finnally got a launch customer for its 747-8 (after they agreed to base the pax version on the freigher fuselage), and so LH is going to replace some of its aging 747 and get new ones to fit the 400-seats market between the A340/777 and the A380 (550+).

They'll probably exercise the option for the other 10 A380 in the next months/year, while deciding in March on the A350/B787 to fit the 200-275 seats market.

[munkyman]

Today Lufthansa officially announced the order of the 20 747-8Is, along with the option for 20 more. They also ordered 7 of the A340-600s.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/06/AR2006120601193.html

According to wikipedia, the 747-8 now has 73 firm orders. 24 for passenger versions and 49 for freighter. Not too shabby.

[urbanflyer]

Lufthansa is planning to operate the 748 with 400 seats, not 300.

[James Bond Agent 007]

Here's the article from the Seattle paper:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/294892_lufthansa06ww.html

Wednesday, December 6, 2006
Lufthansa orders 20 updated 747s
By JAMES WALLACE
P-I REPORTER

In a huge statement in the aviation world that its 747 passenger plane is not yet ready to fade into history, The Boeing Co. has won its long-awaited first order for an updated version of the venerable jumbo jet. Lufthansa Airlines has agreed to buy 20 planes and take options on 20 more, the airline said in a statement Wednesday morning. The official announcement came after the airline's board met in Germany.

In a statement, Lufthansa CEO Wolfgang Mayrhuber called the 747-8 a "highly modern" plane. "The Boeing 747-8 is more than just a derivative of the successful Boeing 747 series."

The airline will be the world's first carrier to operate services with the new wide-body -- the longest passenger jet in the world. In the Lufthansa configuration, the 747-8 will be capable of carrying about 400 passengers.

"The 747-8 underlines our strategy of graded market-specific services and capacity expansion. It fits perfectly in our intercontinental fleet structure and slots neatly capacity-wise between the A380 with around 550 seats and the A340-600 with around 300 seats," Mayrhuber said.

The order, worth about $5.6 billion at list prices, is another blow to Airbus and its A380, a 555-passenger superjumbo that is two years late.

Airbus executives had once boasted that the A380 would be the end of the 747. Although Boeing has not had an airline order for the 747 passenger plane since China Airlines ordered four in November 2002, the 747-8 freighter has been making a strong showing lately, and the Lufthansa development could kick-start a flow of orders for the 747-8 passenger plane.

Meanwhile, Airbus has lost two key customers for the freighter version of the A380 and may be forced to postpone that program. And sales of the A380 passenger plane have slowed dramatically.

Lufthansa, a key Airbus customer in Europe, previously ordered 15 A380s. Only Emirates has ordered more A380s than Lufthansa.

"You have a heavily European Airbus-flagged carrier basically launching the airliner version of a competing airplane," Richard Aboulafia of the Teal Group, an industry consulting firm in Fairfax, Va., said Tuesday of the pending Lufthansa order for the 747-8 Intercontinental.

"That would be a profound statement," he added. "Lufthansa is the second-biggest A380 customer and a longtime Airbus believer."

Boeing last year officially kicked off development of the 747-8 as a freighter and passenger plane. Boeing has more than 40 orders for the freighter, due to enter service in 2009. But no airline has ordered the Intercontinental passenger plane, which would be ready in 2010.

The 20-plane order is worth about $5.6 billion at the $277.5 million average list price of the Intercontinental. But Lufthansa is probably getting a discount of perhaps 30 percent or more off the sticker price.

The 747-8 Intercontinental will have new fuel-efficient engines that are being developed for the 787 Dreamliner. It also will have an improved wing and other structural and aerodynamic changes that will make it far more efficient to operate than the current 747-400. The bigger 747-8 Intercontinental will seat 467 passengers, or about 50 more than the 747- 400.

Aboulafia said the Lufthansa order is likely to speed further sales of the 747-8 Intercontinental.

"It could break the logjam," he said. "A lot of perception about a plane depends on blue-chip endorsements like this."

Emirates and British Airways are two potential 747-8 customers that have expressed interest in the passenger plane.

In addition to helping Boeing sell more the 747-8s, the order from Lufthansa would be a blow to the A380, Aboulafia said.

"This has been a bad week for the A380," Aboulafia said, noting that International Lease Finance Corp. said Monday that it had changed its mind about ordering five A380s freighters. Instead, the world's largest aircraft leasing company will take an additional five A380 passenger planes, doubling its order total for that model to 10. But ILFC said it will delay delivery of those 10 A380s for several years.

FedEx, the launch customer for the A380 freighter, announced last month it had canceled its order for 10 planes. Instead, FedEx placed firm orders for 15 Boeing 777 freighters, with options for 15 more.

Airbus has won 149 firm orders for the A380, but 43 of those are from one customer -- Emirates. Two of the 15 A380 customers, Qantas and Singapore, have said they will order additional A380s.

But Boeing is dominating Airbus in sales for widebody jets this year, just as it did in 2005. In addition to the success of the 747-8 freighter, the two-engine 777 has all but eliminated the four-engine Airbus A340. Airlines say the Boeing plane is much more fuel-efficient. Boeing's 787 Dreamliner has more than 400 orders even though it won't be ready for airline service until May 2008. Airbus will counter the 787 and 777 with the two-engine A350, but that plane only last week got the development green light and won't be available until at least 2013.

"The order (from Lufthansa) is another example of the shift in twin-aisle market share in Boeing's favor," Ronald Epstein of Merrill Lynch said in a research note to clients Tuesday.

"We believe this order represents a coup for Boeing, given Lufthansa's position as Germany's flagship carrier," he said. "While the order does not signify the cancellation of the airline's orders for the A380, the news is positive for Boeing as the A380 was hailed as a replacement for the 747."

Epstein said he expects additional Intercontinental orders to now come from Europe and North America in 2007 and 2008.

The 747 first flew in 1969. Airbus was born in May of that year, when its original French and German partners signed an agreement creating the consortium. Since then, Boeing has sold more than 1,400 747s.

Only two U.S. airlines, Northwest and United, still operate 747 passenger planes, but both are potential customers for the 747-8 Intercontinental. United has made it clear it has no interest in the A380. Some of the other U.S. legacy carriers also could decide to take another look at the 747, a plane that Airbus not too long ago was dismissing as a relic.

[The Chemist]

Today Lufthansa officially announced the order of the 20 747-8Is, along with the option for 20 more. They also ordered 7 of the A340-600s.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/06/AR2006120601193.html

According to wikipedia, the 747-8 now has 73 firm orders. 24 for passenger versions and 49 for freighter. Not too shabby.

The A340-600 is a mighty fine plane - VERY quiet inside, and nice and smooth. And, IMO, it's the best looking passenger airliner there is.

I don't see LH's purchase of the 748i to be a blow to the A380 market - it's a smaller plane than the 380, and will serve a different market.

[WonderlandPark]

Never been a fan of the A340 series inside or out, boring IMO, 747 is still the best looking plane flying today, to each is own I guess.

[Nowhereman1280]

yep, the 10 employees in Chicago do a ton of work.

Actually, its not 10, I was just on the Boeing website the other day and they have over 1200 employees in their "headquarters" which I would assume to be reffering to the 20ish story building they have a massive (and sweet looking, may I add) Boeing logo on.

Anyhow, that was just a joke, obviously moving your headquarters is not going to cause major shifts in how many sales you make or where the global demand for airplanes goes. No need to get defensive because Boeing moved out of Wa and into Chicago. I believe there are still some 30000 Boeing jobs in Wa are there not?

[GioFX]

Lufthansa is planning to operate the 748 with 400 seats, not 300.

you're right.

[JiminyCricket II]

I believe there are still some 30000 Boeing jobs in Wa are there not?

closer to 70,000, I think last count was a little over 68,000 direct jobs (Renton, Everett, Fredrickson Fab., Boeing Credit Union, Commercial HQ, R&D, etc.), that number should be closer to 80,000 in the next decade. as well as hundreds of thousands of indirect jobs, and growing.

[Chicago2020]

http://www.xente.mundo-r.com/ccc_coruna/documentales/747.JPG

[WonderlandPark]

The Boeing steamroller continues:

Just entering the name on google news yeilds the following headlines:

"PAL buying 6 long-range Boeing 777s for $1.5B" (PAL= Phillippine Airlines)
"First Choice says it ordered two new Boeing 787-8s" (British Charter)
"Air India receives first lot of Boeing 737-800"
"New Boeing airplanes chief says 787 still on schedule"
"Delta orders 10 Boeing 737-700s, to sell others"

and what is sounds pretty cool, a 8000nm+ range version the 787-1000 may be built

"Boeing says will build 787-10 if airlines want it"

PARIS, Dec 7 (Reuters) - Boeing (BA.N: Quote, Profile , Research) will add a third major model to its 787 Dreamliner series if airlines ask for it, Randy Baseler, Vice President of Marketing, said on Thursday.

Boeing has been working tentatively for some months on a possible 787-10 model to add to its hot-selling 787-8 and 787-9 airplanes, which will fly 210-290 people over 8,000 nautical miles. A short-range variant also exists called the 787-3.

[Daquan13]

The 10 would be the largest one, right?

[GioFX]

^ its the largest with 290 to 310 seats in a 3-class config. Its aimed to compete with the A350-900.

[Daquan13]

Looks like Boeing is ending this year with a bang, as it has finally and successfully scored an order for 20 of the the 748 passenger version!!

Now hopfully, other carriers with also follow suit and order the passenger version as well.

[urbanflyer]

According to the rumor mill, there are three or four other significant 748 orders in the works as we speak.

[Daquan13]

The carrier(s) that ordered them are probably keeping hush-hush for a while.

[urbanflyer]

There's no reason to do that. A transaction is a transaction. As soon as there's a confirmed order, it'll be on the Boeing site.

[Stratosphere]

Does anyone know if the 747-8 will have a redesigned cabin?

[Daquan13]

There's no reason to do that. A transaction is a transaction. As soon as there's a confirmed order, it'll be on the Boeing site.




Boeing though, has been known to keep the identity of the airline that's buying their planes a secret until such time that they officially announced who it is that has ordered the plane.

Stratosphere, the 748's interior design will more than likely follow the path of either the 777-200LR (Longer Range) Worldliner, the 787 Dreamliner, or a combination of the two.

[JiminyCricket II]

Boeing though, has been known to keep the identity of the airline that's buying their planes a secret until such time that they officially announced who it is that has ordered the plane.

I have no comment...

[urbanflyer]

^
Isn't it amazing? :shrug:

[STR]

That's a TalB-esque moment right there.

[Daquan13]

Come on guys and stop doubting me, you know that recently, Boeing has announced orders made from certain airlines for some of their planes, but the identidy was kept a secret for a while for whatever reason.

Then later on, the name of the airline or leasing co. that made the order was publicly announced. Just a few months ago, an airline ordered a huge number of Next-Generation 737s and Boeing kept the carrier's name a secret, then later gave the name of the carrier.

Unlike TalB, I don't go around spreading rumors that aren't true. Go to Boeing's website and read some of their past newslines on airtplane orders, and you'll see what I mean.

[Daquan13]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003433742_webboeing16.html

Thursday, November 16, 2006
Boeing gets 29 new orders with list price of $5 billion
By Seattle Times business staff

Boeing announced 29 new jet orders on its Web site today, including 17 widebodies.

The value of the new orders is about $5 billion at list prices. However, with standard discounts the true value is closer to $3 billion, based on current market estimates by aircraft valuation company Avitas.

The orders included one for a VIP version of the forthcoming 787, generally sold to governments, big corporations or very wealthy individuals.

The customer for the biggest order, 15 777s, was not identified by Boeing, but in advance of the announcement the Wall Street Journal named the purchaser as General Electric Commercial Aviation Services, GE's aircraft leasing and finance unit. GECAS is the largest aircraft lessor in the world.

The Journal also said orders for a further 50 Boeing wide-body jets are in the pipeline and could be announced by year end.

If those orders materialize and are supplemented by the typical end-of-year rush of single-aisle orders, Boeing would be within reach of last year's record of 1,028 net orders. The tally stands now at 822 net orders.

The pace of orders on the commercial side, plus recent contract wins on the defense side, has boosted Boeing's stock, which was trading today within 80 cents of the record high of $89.58

Meanwhile, Airbus announced an order from Brazil's largest airline, TAM, for 37 jets, including six A330 widebodies. The order is valued about $3.2 billion at list prices, though the true value is less than $2 billion with standard discounts, based on Avitas' valuation estimates.

Earlier this month, formerly all-Airbus TAM placed its first Boeing order for four 777s.



Think I don't know what I'm talking about? Huh?

Here, read this article that James Bond 007 posted just last month. It says that, in this case, a then unidentified leasing co. had ordered a large number (15) of 777 widebodied craft from Boeing.

Now, are you going to say that he's lying also?

[urbanflyer]

Since when are leasing companies and air carriers the same type of customer?

[Daquan13]

Who said that they were?

I didn't. Notice I said (Quote) "in this case, a then unidentified leasing co" (End quote). Everyone knows that a leasing co is not an airline.

[urbanflyer]

The article mentioned an order from a leasing company that wasn't identified by Boeing. Your original statements referred to Boeing keeping air carrier identities secret. Can you connect the dots?

[Daquan13]

Air carriers and leasing co's have had their names kept a secret for whatever reasons by Boeing sometimes when the first announcement comes about about an aircraft order.

Don't really know why, but Boeing does that once in a while. Airbus might have done it in the past as well.

If you look back on some of the previous posts and pages in this thread, you could very well find one of more of those stories.

[Daquan13]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/286886_boeing28ww.html

Thursday, September 28, 2006 · Last updated 3:35 p.m. PT
Boeing adds 34 orders
By JAMES WALLACE
P-I REPORTER

For the second consecutive year, The Boeing Co. has sold more than 500 of its popular 737s.

Boeing added 26 more of the Renton-built, single-aisle jets to its 2006 order book Thursday, pushing its net order total for the year for that model to 503. The company did not identify the customer or customers for the latest 737s.

In addition to those planes, Boeing also sold another eight 787s -- two to an existing customer and six to a new customer. Boeing did not identify the customers. The latest 787 sales give gives Boeing 110 net 787 orders in 2006. Since the 787 program was launched, Boeing has won 401 firm orders from 32 customers, plus another 43 commitments. The 787 is scheduled to enter airline service in the spring of 2008. First flight is about a year off.

The 34 latest orders for the 737s and 787s would be worth more than $3.5 billion at the average list price of the planes, but customers typically get discounts of more than 20 percent.

With just over three months left in 2006 to sell more planes, Boeing has 666 net orders, which is more than it had at this time last year. Boeing ended 2005 with 1,002 net orders.

Boeing is on track to sell more jetliners than Airbus this year, something it has not done since 2000. Airbus had 222 firm orders through August.

Like Boeing, the bulk of the Airbus orders this year are for its single-aisle A320 family of jets. In 2005, Airbus sold a record 918 of its single-aisle jets to 569 Boeing 737s. It was a record sales year for both airplane makers.

[...]



Urbanflyer,

Here's another post where Boeing, at the time, DID NOT identify the customer that had ordered the latest 737s.

Read the last sentense in the 2nd paragraph, please.

[James Bond Agent 007]

Guys, do we really have to get into arguments over dumb stuff? :(

[urbanflyer]

^
Sure, provided that certain folks don't crap the thread by repeatedly posting non-facts.

[Daquan13]

Those are NOT nonfacts, dude.

Almost everytime that I post something here concerning Boeing, you gotta start trouble over nothing.

Sorry James, I apologize, but Urbanflyer is alway looking for an excuse to knit-pick and argue when I post something here. The truth is before him and he wants to argue instead of trying to look for himself.:(

This has been going on for far too long. I'll just ignore him from now on.:rolleyes:

[sammyk]

In this case Daquan13 is right. Both leasing companies and airlines do have their orders marked as "Unidentified" by Boeing. Boeing always waits for the customer to decide when to make it public.

Southwest, LAN, and Continental, to name a few, are known to keep their orders unidentified until they decide otherwise.

As for leasing companies and airlines being two different types of businesses, of course they are but they are but what does that have to do with having unidentified orders? A customer is a customer in that situation and if they don't want their order made public then Boeing won't do it.

[Daquan13]

Thank you, Sammyk!!

I KNEW that that was the case.

[Stratosphere]

Here's how Lufthansa's 747-8 will look like.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20061206/capt.nybz30112062115.germany_lufthansa_jet_order_nybz301.jpg

[Chicago2020]

^^^SWEET MAMA JAMA^^^

:cheers: :banana: :banana: :cheers:

[Daquan13]

Boeing, Kenya Airways Sign Deal for 3 Additional 787-8s

Seattle, December 17, 2006 - Boeing [NYSE: BA] and Kenya Airways signed an order in Nairobi on Dec. 15 for three additional 787 Dreamliners. The airline now has nine 787s on order, and also holds four options for Boeing's fast-selling new airplane. The airline's original order for six Boeing 787s was made in March and included six options. The three additional 787s will be added to Boeing's Orders & Deliveries website this week.:banana:

[Daquan13]

Boeing Delivers 600th 777.

Everett, Washington, December 18, 2006 - The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] Friday delivered its 600th 777 airplane to Sinapore Airlines. The 777 program reached the milestone after 11 years in service, faster than any other twin-aisle jetliner in history.

With today's delivery, Singapore now operates 61 777, the largest fleet in the world with 16 more 777-300ERs that remain to be delivered. The airplane delivered today will be added to the airline's fleet of 12 777-300s, 31 777-200s, 15 777-200ERs, 2 777-300ERs and 23 747-400s.:banana:

[sammyk]

61 + 16 more...nice, 77 777s.

Wow, their 747 fleet had dwindled down to 23. They used to have close to 60 if I remember right.

[Stratosphere]

Whatever happened to the commercial version of the C-17 Globemaster? They named it "MD-17", as I recall. Did Boeing cancel it?

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FRfotai2/MD-17Art.jpg

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2000/photorelease/c-17royal_a1.jpg

[Daquan13]

I thought they made that already.

[urbanflyer]

They did, but he wasn't talking about the USAF's C-17, he was asking about the proposed commercial version.

[Daquan13]

I thought McDonnell Douglas started making it and then Boeing took over when they aquired MD. No?

[sammyk]

There was no interest in it so the idea was abandoned. I don't think a prototype was ever made.

[Daquan13]

There was no interest in it so the idea was abandoned. I don't think a prototype was ever made.



Much like the Sonic Cruiser. No one showed any interest in that either, so Boeing was forced to abandom the program.

I wish that some of them WERE though. It would have been a very beautiful aircraft!!

[bnk]

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=23289

Boeing overtakes Airbus in 2006


Dec. 26, 2006

(Reuters) -Chicago- Boeing Co. sold more aircraft in 2006 than rival Airbus for the first time in five years, the Financial Times Deutschland reported on Tuesday.
The newspaper said in an advance of an article to appear on Wednesday that Boeing has published data showing 904 new orders as of Dec. 20 versus 714 for Airbus, a figure including 635 new orders at end November plus new orders published in December.

A spokeswoman for Airbus was quoted in the advance text as saying 2006 will be "the second best year in the company's history for orders and deliveries" regardless of the end of year ranking.

Boeing last sold more aircraft than Airbus in 2000.

According to company Web sites and Reuters calculations last week, Boeing had 875 new orders by Dec. 21 against Airbus' 694.

[Daquan13]

Yay for Boeing!!

I knew that it was just a matter of time.

Boeing did it slowly, but methodically. Now the question is can they hold onto it and do even better next year? Time will tell.

I think that it was the debacle with the A-380 and A-350 that did it.

[The Chemist]

I think that it was the debacle with the A-380 and A-350 that did it.

Gee, yah think?

Airbus will get its legs back in '07, don't worry. As soon as the 380 starts commercial service and the 350 starts racking up orders (and it will - the success of the 330 nearly guarantees that), all the bad news of 2006 will be forgotten.

[Daquan13]

Gee, yah think? Haha!!

They probably will, I'm sure, but don't count on that happening soon.

But for right now, I think it's Boeing's turn to steal some of their thunder.

Both planes will first have to make up for lost time in revenue passenger / freight service, then once that is satisfied, they can then reap the benefits of possibly passing Boeing.

And that'll take about five years or so.

[GioFX]

I think that it was the debacle with the A-380 and A-350 that did it.

[edit]

No, it was due to inferior than predicted widebodies orders, mostly of the A340.

[Daquan13]

I thought that plane was winning big orders from some of the airlines.

[GioFX]

I thought that plane was winning big orders from some of the airlines.

Yep, i should have been more clear... i mean, the A330... remember that A330/340 are the same macro-family, but different sub-familiies (2 engines vs 4 engines). A330 is selling pretty well, you can't say the same about the A345/A346.

[Daquan13]

Yes, I think that both the A-330 and the A-340 have exactly the same dimmensions, cabin width and wing span.

The difference lies in the number and size of the engines, like you said. And I guess range as well.

The A-340-500 was the longest-range jetliner in the world until the 777-200LR (Longer Range) Worldliner came along.

[GioFX]

Yes, I think that both the A-330 and the A-340 have exactly the same dimmensions, cabin width and wing span.

The difference lies in the number and size of the engines, like you said. And I guess range as well.

The A-340-500 was the longest-range jetliner in the world until the 777-200LR (Longer Range) Worldliner came along.

A33x and A34x are different in length and wingspan, too... (the A340-600 being 10m longer than the A340-300 and more then 3m longer in wingspan).

[James Bond Agent 007]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003510266_boeing05.html

Friday, January 5, 2007
Record jet orders fly to Boeing in 2006
By Dave Carpenter
The Associated Press

Announcing its 2006 jet-order tally Thursday, Boeing claimed a record year: 1,044 net orders, positioning it to regain the lead from Airbus in the all-important sales category for the first time since 2000.

The list price of those orders is about $114 billion. However, based on estimated actual prices compiled by aircraft valuation firm Avitas, the total value after standard discounts is about $71 billion.

Continuing strong demand for the upcoming 787 Dreamliner and a surge of orders for the aging but renewed 747 jumbo jet helped Boeing surpass 2005's total of 1,002 net orders, when rival Airbus had a late-year surge to top it with 1,055.

In addition, Boeing cornered the air-freighter market.

Against Boeing's new 747-8 and 777 freighters, Airbus offers only the freighter version of its troubled A380 superjumbo, which in 2006 lost orders when FedEx canceled.

While Airbus freighter sales were negative, Boeing sold 81 freighters, including 33 777s and 36 747-8s, accounting for about 18 percent of the total value of its orders.

Airbus has been losing market share and trailed its U.S. rival by a wide margin in mid-December.

Barring an unlikely flood of last-minute orders, it will drop to second place in orders when it announces 2006 figures Jan. 17.

Boeing's 2006 gross orders — which do not take account of cancellations and conversions — came to 1,050.

Among the notable orders for the year were Lufthansa buying the passenger version of the 747, FedEx replacing its canceled A380 freighters with 777s, Air Berlin ordering 75 737s, and Delta buying its first airplanes since 2000 — 10 Boeing 737s.

Airbus, however, will retain its lead for a fourth straight year in aircraft deliveries, the category that determines the world's No. 1 plane maker.

Boeing said it delivered 398 commercial planes in 2006, while Airbus is on pace to deliver a record 425.

Boeing recorded 157 orders for the 787 last year, with customers eager to take advantage of its lower fuel consumption and more passenger-friendly design.

The plane is due to enter service in mid-2008 after test flights beginning this year.

Still, it was the 737 that provided the bulk of orders again in 2006, with customers seeking a record 729 of the popular single-aisle aircraft.

Boeing had 76 orders for 777s, 10 for 767s and 72 for 747s, which it said was the highest total for the 747 program since 1990.

Scott Carson, chief executive of the Seattle-based commercial jet-building division, said Boeing has built a well-balanced backlog of orders over the last two years, after having struggled previously.

"The strong orders for the past two years are a validation of our strategy of focusing on our customers, simplifying our product and services offerings and transforming our production system," Carson said.

Carson, who took over the job after Alan Mulally left to become CEO at Ford Motor, was credited with reinvigorating the sales force as its Boeing commercial-airplane sales chief from December 2004 until last September.

Separately, Boeing reported reducing its work force by 2,356 jobs to 154,031 in 2006, with the majority of the cuts in California.

But it has added jobs for 31 consecutive months in Washington state, where it had 68,170 employees as of Dec. 31, reflecting the need to keep up with strong demand for commercial airplanes.

Boeing shares, which rose 26 percent last year, closed slightly up Thursday at $89.53.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2007/01/04/2003510113.gif

[Lexy]

Excellent graph! It's good to see the "Jumbo" still hanging in there. I love that plane.

[WonderlandPark]

Wow, the 777 dropped an incredible amount over '05.

[Daquan13]

Yeah, but the 767 is the lowest one.

[Stratosphere]

Wow, the 777 dropped an incredible amount over '05.
Because of the 787, I guess.

[Lexy]

Because of the 787, I guess.

That and the fact that longhaul airliners aren't in as much demand at the moment. Part is in anticipation for the 747-800 and the 787. LF has taken a large order out on 747-800's. Plus, I think it's just a show of pullback by the airlines as money was a bit tighter this past year.

[Daquan13]

That and the fact that longhaul airliners aren't in as much demand at the moment. Part is in anticipation for the 747-800 and the 787. LF has taken a large order out on 747-800's. Plus, I think it's just a show of pullback by the airlines as money was a bit tighter this past year.



If that's the case, then why did such carriers as Air Canada, Singpore and Emerates place monster orders for the 777 as part of their orders to upgrade and enlarge their fleets?

[urbanflyer]

Gee, maybe because their circumstances are a bit different than that of other carriers? :rolleyes: Particularly in the case of SQ and EK - monster annual profits for the former, virtually unlimited funds from state subsidies for the latter. :crazy:

[Daquan13]

The fact STIll REMAINS that the large orders were made.

Why does everything, or almost everything that comes from you have to sound so blasted sarcastic?:rolleyes: :koko:

[sammyk]

The fact STIll REMAINS that the large orders were made.

So what?

The post you originally responded to was saying there isn't 'much' demand for those types of planes so there was really no need for you comment of three airlines placing orders. SIA renews their fleet every 5-7 years or so due to their tax laws. Emirates likes to buy a bunch of everything. AC was in the process of a long overdue fleet renewal of their 767s and decided to replace their A340s while they were at it. Who else is buying these birds in huge numbers?

[Daquan13]

So what?

The orders were still made, now weren't they?

[urbanflyer]

What about this don't you get? You made a counterpoint to Lexy's factual statement about the lack of demand for larger aircraft. Everyone knows the orders were made but you raised it as if to question the level of demand. As was already stated, the airlines that made those large orders have a different market situation from the majority of carriers that didn't order them. Whether or not these outlier orders were made doesn't change the reality of overall low demand for such aircraft. Thus, you have no point.

Is it spelled out enough now? :dunce:

[Daquan13]

Here we go again. Stop it, just stop it!

I only made the statement. Every damn time that I SAY SOMETHING, you just gotta start this crap all over again.:koko: :yuck:

Go find someone else to poke at, will you?

[urbanflyer]

You have the power to stop it.

[sammyk]

Stop it, just stop it!

I only made the statement. Every damn time that I SAY SOMETHING, you just gotta start this crap all over again.:koko: :yuck:

Go find someone else to poke at, will you?

Yah but why respond to a post with a nonsensical comment/statement? What does SQ/EK/AC ordering 777s have to do with an overall slowdown in large long haul jets? Nothing! That's the point urbanflyer is trying to make and all you see it as is an attack on you. Why can't you just admit you made an irrelevant comment?

[Daquan13]

I NEVER ONCE said that those few airlines ordering 777s had anything to do with a supposed overall slowdown, now did I? I just merely questioned that theory.

You guys seem so hellbent on assuming that I said that when I didn't. And I DID NOT make an irrelevant comment either.

[jamesinclair]

757s are not available to order?

[Daquan13]

757s are not available to order?



The 757 is no longer in production now. Production of the plane ended sometime last year.

[urbanflyer]

I NEVER ONCE said that those few airlines ordering 777s had anything to do with a supposed overall slowdown, now did I? I just merely questioned that theory.

Read this three times and tell us seriously that you're not contradicting yourself.

[sammyk]

I NEVER ONCE said that those few airlines ordering 777s had anything to do with a supposed overall slowdown, now did I? I just merely questioned that theory.

You guys seem so hellbent on assuming that I said that when I didn't. And I DID NOT make an irrelevant comment either.

You have got to be kidding. You quoted the person theorizing that the market has slowed down and you went ahead and used the three airlines in trying to make your point that the market hasn't slowed down, otherwise why would you quote and comment like you did?

If your mentioning of the three airlines had nothing to do with the slowdown in orders theory then how is it relevant? It's not, it's irrelevant!

[Daquan13]

I never said it WAS relevant or irrelevant. I just merely asked the question. What part of this are you two not getting?

[sammyk]

I never said it WAS relevant or irrelevant. I just merely asked the question. What part of this are you two not getting?

If you were asking an isolated question as to why SQ/EK/AC placed those orders then why did you quote Lexy's post about a slowdown in orders? Doing so automatically makes one think that you were responding to that post and attempting to make a counterpoint by using examples of orders placed by the three airlines you mentioned.

If you truly meant to ask that question independent of what Lexy mentioned then I still ask why. Why did they order them you ask? Let me take a wild guess, they needed them?? I don't think Emirates has plans to put them in some "Greater Dubai Museum for Brand New 777-300ERs". :sly: