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JiminyCricket II
Dec 2, 2005, 12:34 AM
Holy hell Boeing, on fire. :eek:




Thursday, December 1, 2005
Boeing scores big order from Hong Kong airline
By Dominic Gates
Seattle Times aerospace reporter

Another domino has fallen for Boeing, an order with an eventual total list price that's likely to approach $8 billion. It's the latest in a series of recent huge wins that is crushing Airbus in sales of widebody jets.

Hong Kong-based airline Cathay Pacific announced Thursday it will buy a dozen 777-300ERs from Boeing and lease four more from International Lease Finance Corporation (ILFC).

The deal's significance goes well beyond that initial firm order because Cathay also took options to buy 20 more 777s from Boeing. Cathay is a premier Asian airline and it's a safe bet those options will be exercised over time.

"This is a long-term commitment to the continued profitable growth of the airline," Cathay's chief executive Philip Chen said in a statement.

Top-of-the-line 777-300ERs are listed for sale at $250 million, although at least a 30 percent discount is likely from the list prices.

The Cathay win is also strategically significant, as it is the first of three highly anticipated widebody jet orders from that part of the globe.

Singapore Airlines and Qantas of Australia are also weighing large widebody orders and industry sources believe Boeing is favored in those cases too.

Last week, Middle East airline Emirates also went for Boeing against Airbus, ordering 42 long-range 777s, a deal worth $9.7 billion at list prices.

The Emirates and Cathay wins mean that in addition to the successful new 787, Boeing's larger 777 is also a very hot seller, soaring against its Airbus competitor, the A340.

The Boeing jet is a fuel-efficient twin-jet, while the Airbus plane is a four-engine jet. With oil prices so high, that difference is tipping airlines toward Boeing.

So far this year, excluding the Cathay win, Boeing has booked 109 firm new orders for 777s, compared to 11 orders for A340s.

This week's Flight International, a respected industry trade magazine, reported that Airbus is studying a revamp of the A340—with new engines and a lighter aluminum/lithium alloy fuselage that would compete better against the 777.

Such a new derivative would be a major undertaking, similar to the revamp of the 747 recently announced by Boeing. It would further tax the European plane-maker's resources as it strives to get the A380 superjumbo into service while at the same time developing the new A350 that will compete against the 787.

In addition to the big 777 order, Cathay also said Thursday it will acquire three Airbus A330-300s to operate regional routes.

Cathay currently flies 95 aircraft and the fleet will increase to 100 aircraft by next September, its 60th anniversary.

Its long-haul fleet comprises 22 Boeing 747-400, 15 Airbus A340-300 and three Airbus A340-600. The regional fleet comprises 16 Boeing 777-200/300 and 26 Airbus A330-300 aircraft. The airline also operates 13 Boeing 747 freighters.

Later this month, the airline takes delivery of the world's first 747-400BCF (Boeing Converted Freighter), converted from one of its own 747-400 passenger jets. The conversion is a Boeing design, with modifications done by Taikoo (Xiamen) Aircraft Engineering in Xiamen, China.

Cathay has firm orders to convert six such 747s and options for a further six.


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2002658423_weboeing01.html

urbanflyer
Dec 2, 2005, 1:45 AM
This is huge but was virtually guaranteed. The 777-300ER is an unmatched product for airlines seeking an immediate complement and/or replacement for the 747-400 on high yield long haul routes.

CTroyMathis
Dec 2, 2005, 2:21 AM
Good on ya Boeing.

James Bond Agent 007
Dec 2, 2005, 2:41 AM
I changed the title of this thread.

Put all news about Boeing orders here.

It would be a good place for us Boeing fans to brag. :D

spyguy
Dec 2, 2005, 2:45 AM
Has anyone done one an Airbus vs. Boeing tally lately?

James Bond Agent 007
Dec 2, 2005, 2:47 AM
^
There's one in SSC:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=166166

STR
Dec 2, 2005, 3:40 AM
This week's Flight International, a respected industry trade magazine, reported that Airbus is studying a revamp of the A340—with new engines and a lighter aluminum/lithium alloy fuselage that would compete better against the 777.

Unless those engines are GE-90's, PW4000's or Trents and they drop the outer two pods, this probably won't go too well. The A340 is done, killed by the 777, 787 and A350.

tuy
Dec 2, 2005, 3:45 AM
www.justplanes.com keeps a running total for the year, complete with details.

James Bond Agent 007
Dec 2, 2005, 6:44 AM
^
According to that justplanes website, Boeing has 938 orders so far this year.

I wanna reach 1,000!!! :banana:

Rachmaninov
Dec 2, 2005, 11:38 AM
Great news for Boeing. Another 16 777s just after Dubai's huge order of 42!

Daquan13
Dec 2, 2005, 4:08 PM
I changed the title of this thread.

Put all news about Boeing orders here.

It would be a good place for us Boeing fans to brag. :D



And brag is exactly what I'm gonna do.

You go, Boeing! Kick the crap out of Airbus and get as many orders as you possibly can. it's YOUR turn to shine from now on.

From this day forward to the next and every day thereafter, get everything that you might have missed out on for the last four years.

Smaller IS better Smaller planes are lighter, help to consume less fuel and travel much farther & a little faster than a big huge monstrous massive 800-seat jetliner. Some of the reasons that Boeing decided not to match the A-380 in size. They might have lost out big time! Smart thinking, Boeing!

I'm so happy that Boeing is on the move now. I've got friends who have stock with Boeing.

It just might be the company of the year next year, and I hope that the Guiness Book of World Records certifies them as such.

I WILL place any big welcoming news about orders here that I get from Boeing.

Yaaaay, Boeing!!!!

The Chemist
Dec 2, 2005, 4:23 PM
Don't worry, Airbus will be back. While they've been hurt in the ULR market, I'm pretty certain that they'll come back with a competitive product in the not too distant future. The A350 looks to be a good competitor to the 787, especially since orders for the A350 continue to come in. And the A330 continues to be the choice for aircraft in the smaller widebody category. And the A380 will be unmatched by anything Boeing has when it comes into service some time next year - with the upcoming larger A380-900 likely to bring in many more orders. From what I've read, many airlines are waiting for the A389 before purchasing the big bird.

Daquan13
Dec 2, 2005, 4:26 PM
Don't worry, Airbus will be back. While they've been hurt in the ULR market, I'm pretty certain that they'll come back with a competitive product in the not too distant future. The A350 looks to be a good competitor to the 787, especially since orders for the A350 continue to come in. And the A330 continues to be the choice for aircraft in the smaller widebody category. And the A380 will be unmatched by anything Boeing has when it comes into service some time next year - with the upcoming larger A380-900 likely to bring in many more orders. From what I've read, many airlines are waiting for the A389 before purchasing the big bird.



And umm, you know like ahh, when will that be? When Boeing is done kicking them to the moon? (Laughing out loud & stomping on the floor):hilarious :hilarious

tuy
Dec 2, 2005, 4:29 PM
Please don't turn this into another Boeing v. Airbus thread. Let's keep this positive.

Daquan13
Dec 2, 2005, 4:37 PM
I think it already started out that way.

arbeiter
Dec 2, 2005, 4:39 PM
Daquan, this was about Boeing, not about how you think that Airbus sucks. As someone whose family fortune was largely based on BAA's success in Bristol, it is like insulting my family.

James Bond Agent 007
Dec 2, 2005, 10:09 PM
Yeah, this is a thread about Boeing. Airbus talk is verboten here. :poke:

unusualfire
Dec 2, 2005, 10:11 PM
Great news for Boeing. Another 16 777s just after Dubai's huge order of 42! I doubt a city orders 777's.

Daquan13
Dec 2, 2005, 10:15 PM
Isn't he talking about Emirates, which I think IS in Burj Dubai?

I didn't mean to get off topic, but the thread DID start out with a statement about Airbus' sales possibly being crushed by Boeing.

Sorry about that.

JiminyCricket II
Dec 3, 2005, 3:07 AM
Great news for Boeing. Another 16 777s just after Dubai's huge order of 42!

not only that, this isn't the run-of-the-mill 777. This is the -300ER, easily Boeing's most expensive plane, if i'm not very much mistaken.

destroybananas
Dec 4, 2005, 5:30 PM
Don't worry, Airbus will be back. While they've been hurt in the ULR market, I'm pretty certain that they'll come back with a competitive product in the not too distant future. The A350 looks to be a good competitor to the 787, especially since orders for the A350 continue to come in. And the A330 continues to be the choice for aircraft in the smaller widebody category. And the A380 will be unmatched by anything Boeing has when it comes into service some time next year - with the upcoming larger A380-900 likely to bring in many more orders. From what I've read, many airlines are waiting for the A389 before purchasing the big bird.

ok, I'll stop worrying now....:haha:

sf_eddo
Dec 5, 2005, 9:15 AM
from newsweek:

Boeing's New Tailwind
The jetmaker is cruising again after many losses to Airbus.

By Andrew Romano
Newsweek


Dec. 5, 2005 issue - On Dec. 7, 2003, Boeing executives arrived in Dubai for the city's biennial air show—and they were hoping for some good news. After all, the company's profits and stock price were slumping, and with 13 years since the last new-model launch, its product lineup looked stale. But the worst headline was yet to come: by the year-end, Boeing would, for the first time, deliver fewer airplanes than rival Airbus.

What a difference a couple of years makes. Boeing returned to Dubai last week on a roll. On Nov. 10 a long-range 777 flew 13,422 miles in one shot, shattering the distance record for commercial flight. The company's stock price had nearly tripled in the past two years. By Thanksgiving, the Dubai show was over—and, boosted by 138 new sales, Boeing's order book had swelled to 801, which will likely top its European adversary's 2005 tally by more than 100 jets.

For a time, Airbus looked too tough to beat. It made a bold bet with its A380, a new double-decker "flying cruise ship," designed to ferry 555 passengers between major hubs. But Boeing believed carriers would move to offer more frequent nonstop flights using smaller jets and avoiding big airports. So it rolled out the 787 Dreamliner, set to enter service in 2008. The 250-seater's selling point: an ultralight design that lets it fly nonstop from Los Angeles to Sydney and burn 20 percent less fuel than other planes its size.

The timing was right. With global passenger traffic rising fast, airlines have gone on a shopping spree—and the high cost of oil is now driving many carriers' buying decisions. Consider, for example, the companies' long-range jets. Airbus's A340 has four engines; Boeing's 777 has two. The result: the Boeing burns 24 percent less fuel per seat mile (and typically outsells its European counterpart 10-1). According to Boeing execs, efficiency also explains why its flagship 787 Dreamliner has doubled Airbus's A380 order total. "There's no question that the high-fuel-price environment has been extraordinarily good to us," says Nicole Piasecki, the company's VP of marketing and business strategy.

Meanwhile, Airbus is losing altitude. In June, the company acknowledged that production difficulties have delayed delivery of the A380 from mid-2006 to early 2007. What's more, its direct answer to the 787, the A350, won't hit the market until 2010, two years after the Dreamliner. "They've got a good mousetrap there," says Airbus's chief salesman, John Leahy.

Who will win in the long run? That depends on how you define victory. Boeing once hoped to fill two thirds of all aircraft orders. But now it may celebrate any year it captures more than 50 percent of the market. "Both companies are too good to be permanently eclipsed,'' says Ed Greenslet, editor of Airline Monitor. "Some decades, Boeing will have the best products; some decades, it'll be Airbus." But for now, Boeing is enjoying the wind at its back.

© 2005 Newsweek, Inc.

© 2005 MSNBC.com

URL: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10218663/site/newsweek/

combusean
Dec 5, 2005, 10:57 AM
I'm not trying to set too many fires by mentioning Aibus, but I think in the long run you have to look at the airport business model. The article mentions it, but glosses over the fact that the A380 is too big for most airports. Expansions are frequently warranted, but according to this list the A380 won't be flying in most American airports for a while.


US AIRPORTS WITHIN FIRST A380 AIRPORTS

As of today, early A380 airports are as follows:

2006/2007: SFO, LAX, JFK, MIA, and potentially and IAD
2008/2009: MEM, ANC, IND and potentially ORD
Other potential
before 2010: EWR, MCO, AFW and HNL


The nimble American carriers just simply won't be using it. The legacy carriers can't afford it. It's a niche for asian and shipping markets that are important on their own right. But let's look in the long term. In 2010, the A350 will arrive after some years of 787 rampage.

It'd better kick ass in performance. From what I'm reading on airliners.net, US Airways--who were among the first to put in 20 orders a ways back as a launch partner--have a massive exit clause if the A350 is a fuel hog. This clause probably exists in a lot of other A350 orders as well.

That could work really really well for Airbus if they can deliver what the carriers are wanting. But Boeing seems to have the leg up on efficiency and Airbus may very well have botched its handling of the US Airways/America West merger--two major prior customers on their own right--but Boeing wasn't there at all. I'm trying to find out more if United and other carriers are interested in ordering it.

However, if history repeats itself, the 350 should be picking up in orders within a couple years. The 787 wasn't doing particularly well within a couple years of its introduction and look where it is now.

The airline market is hard to analyse, and sometimes I think the major customers know about as much as what's going to happen in five years as I do. 2010 is a really long ways away.

It's foolish to dismiss the A350 now.

James Bond Agent 007
Dec 14, 2005, 4:31 AM
Qantas goes for Boeing!!!!!!! :rock: :banana: :carrot:



http://today.reuters.com/business/newsArticle.aspx?type=ousiv&storyID=2005-12-14T033928Z_01_ARM412563_RTRIDST_0_BUSINESSPRO-AIRLINES-AUSTRALIA-QANTAS-DC.XML

Qantas chooses Boeing for fleet renewal
Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:39 PM ET

SYDNEY (Reuters) - Qantas Airways Ltd., the world's eighth-biggest airline by market value, said on Wednesday it planned to acquire up to 115 Boeing 787 aircraft for its long-awaited fleet renewal. Qantas did not give a cost for the new fleet, but said the list price for 65 B787s was A$13 billion ($10 billion). The carrier has previously said it expected to spend up to A$20 billion on the new aircraft.

The move by Australia's flag carrier comes amid a record year in aircraft orders for Boeing Co. and Airbus, owned 80 percent by the European Aerospace Defense & Space Co. and 20 percent by Britain's BAE Systems Plc.

The two plane manufacturers have recorded more than $100 billion in orders this year, boosted recently when Airbus won a $10 billion deal to supply 150 single-aisle passenger jets to China.

Airlines have been investing heavily, driven by high fuel prices, new models and the need to keep surging low-fare upstarts at bay.

"This fleet plan will give us a modern fleet offering maximum flexibility, lower seat mile costs and greater fuel efficiency," Qantas Chairman Margaret Jackson said in a statement.

Qantas said Boeing had designated two engine types for the B787, Rolls Royce and General Electric. Qantas would require up to 145 engines and would start the selection process in 2006.

The airline said it had sought tenders from Airbus and Boeing on ultra-long range variants, but had been unable to find an aircraft that could operate non-stop flights economically between Australia and London and Australia and New York.

Singapore Airlines is also considering taking up to 70 wide-bodied planes for its fleet, industry officials say, in a deal that could be worth up to $10 billion in revenues for the winner.

Qantas' latest fleet investment plan is in addition to A$18 billion it budgeted for fleet renewal between 2000-2010.

Qantas has already ordered 12 A380 superjumbo aircraft, with options for 10 more, to service routes between Australia and the United States and Britain. It also has been taking delivery of Boeing 737-800s to increase this fleet to 33 by the end of 2005.

Qantas' domestic budget carrier Jetstar, which competes with low-cost rival Virgin Blue, is already moving to an all A320-200 fleet of 23 177-seat aircraft by May, replacing 14 Boeing 717-200 planes which carry up to 125 passengers.

James Bond Agent 007
Dec 14, 2005, 4:40 AM
Merry Christmas from Qantas!!!

http://i.today.reuters.com/genImage.aspx?uri=top-news-view-2005-12-14-032329-eRPPISA[2].jpg&resize=full
A group of men dressed as Santa Claus wave as they disembark from a Qantas plane for a charity event in Sydney, Nov. 9, 2005.
Qantas gave a big Christmas present to Boeing on Wednesday, choosing its planes over those of rival Airbus in a big fleet purchase. REUTERS/David Gray

tayser
Dec 14, 2005, 7:49 AM
The A380 is still going to be the flagship, and most likely OneWorld's 'flagship' along with Iberia's A380s.

Anyhow, I cant wait to see the 767s kick the bucket, A330s absolutely piss on those things, but it seems the 787 will piss on the A330s before too long!

Chi-town
Dec 14, 2005, 3:43 PM
This Quantas order comes after Boeing already matched its all-time high stock price the day before. That company is not doing at all badly. It's recovered well from losing about 2/3 of its value in the 2 years after 9/11.


Oh, and they're far better planes in my experience than Airbus. I know this isn't a "vs" thread, but when you really can't separate the two. They are the only two competitors in this industry, and anything and everything that happens to one affects the other.

tayser
Dec 15, 2005, 5:06 AM
Queensland And Northern Territory Aerial Service.

James Bond Agent 007
Dec 16, 2005, 2:51 AM
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/252094_aerospace15.html

Thursday, December 15, 2005
Record year at Boeing leads industry boom
Aerospace sales up by more than $14 billion in '05

By CHARLES POPE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT

WASHINGTON -- The aerospace industry, led by a record year at Boeing, soared into uncharted territory in 2005 as sales jumped by more than $14 billion over the 2004 level.

In all, defense and aerospace companies booked $170 billion in sales this year, a 9.2 percent increase over 2004, the Aerospace Industries Association reported Wednesday.

The association, which represents the major aerospace companies in America, predicts the boom will continue into 2006 with sales projected to increase to $184 billion.

"This is good news for our economy since aerospace provides a foreign trade surplus and is adding jobs," AIA President John Douglass said at the group's year-end meeting.

AIA analysts said much of the revenue growth in 2006 will come in civil aviation, which is good news for Boeing. Sales of commercial aircraft and related components are expected to hit $49.5 billion, up from $39.2 billion this year.

The other major segments -- defense, space and missiles -- will likely experience little or no increase.

The boom directly affected employment, which increased to 623,900 after years of steady decline.

In fact, total aerospace employment reached a 50-year low in 2003 at 587,000.

According to an AIA analysis, "employment in the aircraft and parts industry rose 22,000 to 395,200."

But although the industry is enjoying improving fortunes, Douglass warned that its industrial base is becoming brittle as the work force ages and consolidation amplifies the problem.

"The aerospace and defense industrial base is increasingly fragile," Douglass said. "Some parts of the defense industrial base have dried up completely."

For example, he pointed out that the United States is not producing any bomber aircraft or refueling tanker aircraft and that other important components, such as strategic and tactical aircraft, major portions of the space shuttle and aircraft carriers, are manufactured by a single producer.

James Bond Agent 007
Dec 16, 2005, 11:07 PM
Among other things, this article answers the question discussed in the 787 thread about why isn't there a new building being built near the Everett plant for the 787. It sounds like they're gonna make room in the existing building for a 787 production line. I guess the retirement of 767's will free up some room there.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/252270_boeing16.html

Friday, December 16, 2005
Boeing's Everett plant humming
Years of work are in pipeline as orders for jetliners pile up
By JAMES WALLACE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER AEROSPACE REPORTER

The Boeing Co.'s giant Everett plant should be bristling with jetliner production work for years after a record run of orders in 2005, with more to come.

The biggest of the widebody airplane programs at the plant is the 777. That program supports several thousand Boeing jobs already, and production rates are going higher -- a lot higher.

Boeing announced Thursday that Cathay Pacific Airways of Hong Kong signed a final contract for a dozen 777s, which pushed the 777 firm-order total for the year to 127. That broke the previous record of 116 firm orders in 2000.

That total is likely to grow before the end of the year. And Boeing has a shot to win many more 777 orders in 2006.

As production rates go up on its airplane programs in Renton and Everett, Boeing is hiring more workers -- but not at anywhere near the numbers seen after previous industry downturns.

The company's total employment in Washington state was 55,434 in January 2005. As of Dec. 1, it was at 62,103. Most of those jobs are with the commercial airplanes business in the Puget Sound region.

Boeing won't reveal employment levels for different aircraft programs or even for its different factories. It also will not disclose airplane production rates. And the company isn't saying how many people it might hire in the next year.

But a person who works on the 777 program said about 6,500 employees are directly involved there now, including engineers and support people as well as Machinists who assemble the plane.

The 777 production rate is heading up, from four planes a month to five, and later to seven a month, according to this person. Boeing has studied raising rates even higher to accommodate demand for the jet.

Over the past year, Boeing has been implementing a more efficient and leaner production system for the 777 at the Everett plant, switching from a conventional assembly line to a moving production line that is now used on the 737 program in Renton.

Production of the 777 is also being shifted in phases to an adjacent bay in the plant to make room for the 787, which will enter production in 2007. Final assembly of that plane is expected to require 800 to 1,000 workers.

Boeing is looking at boosting production rates of the 787, too, once the program has been up and running for a while. Boeing has said it will deliver around 95 Dreamliners in 2008 and 2009 before raising production. Boeing has won more than 350 firm orders and commitments for that plane.

Production rates are also going up on the 747 as Boeing builds a remaining backlog of 747-400 freighters before the 747-8 kicks in. The bigger and more efficient 747-8 is scheduled to enter service in 2009, with the first plane likely rolling through the Everett plant in 2008.

Only the 767 program in Everett is winding down. The 767 commercial jet is being replaced in the Boeing lineup by the 787.

Boeing was to have built 100 767s for the Air Force as a tanker, but that controversial deal was killed by Congress. The Pentagon is expected to eventually hold a new tanker competition to include EADS, the parent of Airbus. There is growing speculation that if Boeing does one day build a new tanker for the Air Force, it will be based on the 777 and not the 767.

That would further add to the 777's growing backlog.

Through November, the backlog stood at 247 planes. That's the number of 777s on order that have not yet been built or delivered.

Orders for the 777 keep rolling. Two big 777 deals are close to being completed.

State-run Air India, which announced in April that it would buy 23 777s, received the OK Thursday from the government's Cabinet to buy the planes, pending one final round of price negotiations with Boeing.

The order will include 27 787s.

Of the 50 Air India orders, 35 will be firm, but the airline is expected to eventually take all the planes. So is Cathay Pacific, which has purchase rights for 20 more 777s in addition to its 12 firm orders.

Qatar Airways is working on a final deal with Boeing for up to 20 777s. And Singapore Airlines, already the world's biggest 777 operator, is considering another big 777 purchase.

It's not just the Everett plant that will have lots of work in the next few years.

So will Boeing's Renton plant, where the 737 is built.

Boeing has won 465 orders for the 737 this year and that does not include 75 jets that China has said it will buy. The 737 backlog was 1,042 planes at the end of November.

A second 737 production line has just opened in the plant. One 737 is in production on that second moving line to make sure everything works smoothly.

Boeing could soon be building a record number of 737s per month -- more than 31 -- and even higher rates are planned, a person close to the program said.

Boeing has been gradually rehiring workers, and bringing in new people as production is boosted at its plants in Renton and Everett. That hiring trend is likely to continue.

Boeing has won more than 800 orders this year, and although orders are likely to taper off next year, some industry analysts are predicting another strong order year for both Boeing and Airbus in 2006.

The biggest potential market remains North America, where struggling U.S. legacy carriers will eventually need to update their fleets with new planes.

The question is whether they will start to do so in 2006.

Daquan13
Dec 17, 2005, 12:13 AM
I've got a feeling that Boeing just might stop making the 767 after present remaining orders for it have been satisfied.

I think the plane's popularity has gone down, much like the 757 did.

jddar
Dec 17, 2005, 7:17 AM
I've got a feeling that Boeing just might stop making the 767 after present remaining orders for it have been satisfied. I think the plane's popularity has gone down, much like the 757 did.

You're likely right -- why would anyone buy the 767 with 787 production soon to begin?

Daquan13
Dec 17, 2005, 9:30 AM
I've got a feeling that Boeing just might stop making the 767 after present remaining orders for it have been satisfied. I think the plane's popularity has gone down, much like the 757 did.

You're likely right -- why would anyone buy the 767 with 787 production soon to begin?



All of which brings to mind the 787 production line.

Boeing did not mention any expansions for the plant to start making the 787 because it just might be planning to use the 767 assembly line for the new plane.

As the 767 production slowly winds down, it might be phasing in
the 787 on that same line.

tuy
Dec 17, 2005, 3:06 PM
Did you not see this line in the article above?

--------------

Only the 767 program in Everett is winding down. The 767 commercial jet is being replaced in the Boeing lineup by the 787.

Daquan13
Dec 17, 2005, 3:20 PM
Did you not see this line in the article above?

--------------

Only the 767 program in Everett is winding down. The 767 commercial jet is being replaced in the Boeing lineup by the 787.



Yes, I DID read that line in the post above that James wrote.

But no one knows for sure if the 767 will stop being made or when, since Boeing has not officially said so yet.:???:

James Bond Agent 007
Dec 23, 2005, 2:56 AM
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/253109_boeing22ww.html

Thursday, December 22, 2005 · Last updated 1:12 p.m. PT
Boeing breaks record for commercial jet orders
By JAMES WALLACE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

The Boeing Co. has won firm orders for 895 commercial jets this year, breaking its previous record set in 1989.

And the company is expected to sign more firm order deals between now and Dec. 31, which would push its order count for the year above 900 planes. Boeing, which updated its 2005 order totals Thursday, is set to beat Airbus for the first time since 2000. Both manufacturers will release their 2005 final order tallies in January.

Airbus had 687 firm orders heading into December; that was already a record for Airbus since its formation in 1970.

The 895 firm orders for Boeing this year represents the gross total. The net total for Boeing is 870. The net includes orders that were placed in a past year but were canceled this year.

Until now, Boeing’s best jetliner sales year was 1989, when it won 879 gross orders. That does not include jets sold that year by McDonnell Douglas. After the merger of the two companies in 1997, Boeing combined order totals for both going back to the 1950s.

So far this year, Boeing has won firm orders for 500 737s,48 747s,19 767s,130 777s and 198 787s.

James Bond Agent 007
Dec 23, 2005, 4:29 AM
^
And Boeing isn't the only one breaking records in the aircraft boom . . .

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2005/12/19/daily32.html

Cincinnati Business Courier - 12:21 PM EST Thursday
GE sells record number of aircraft engines in 2005

General Electric sold 750 of its GE90 and GEnx engines in 2005, a record number for the year.

In its first year on the market, the GEnx engine brought in 525 orders, according to a GE news release. It will power the Boeing 787 and 747-8 aircraft, along with the Airbus A350.

The value of the GEnx sales is more than $6 billion.

GE sold more than 240 GE90 engines, of which a record 225 were the higher thrust GE90-115B engines. Boeing is using the engine in three of its freighter craft.

The value of the GE90 sales is more than $4.5 billion.

GE began selling the GE90 engines to airlines in 1995. The GEnx is based on the GE90 design. GEnx is the only engine with a front fan case and fan blades made of composites for better engine durability, weight reduction and lower operating costs. The fan blades will use GE90 composite technology.

GE-Aviation, part of General Electric Co. (NYSE: GE), makes jet engines for civil and military aircraft.

James Bond Agent 007
Dec 23, 2005, 5:04 AM
Wichita Business Journal - 12:13 PM CST Wednesday
Chinese deal takes 737 orders over 6,000
Ken Vandruff

As the Boeing Co. prepares to assemble its 5,000th 737 airliner, company officials can already see a new milestone of 6,000 of the jets.

Boeing (NYSE: BA) passed the milestone with an order Wednesday for 10 737-800s from Xiamen Airlines of China.

Deliveries will start in mid-2006. The deal is worth up to $720 million at list prices depending on configuration, although airlines routinely negotiate discounts.

The order brings the 737s total orders to 6,025 since the jet was introduced in 1968.

Spirit AeroSystems Inc. in Wichita builds 75 percent of the 737 airframe. Spirit recently rolled out the 5,000th 737 fuselage for shipment to Boeing's final assembly plant in Puget Sound. That jet will eventually be delivered to Southwest Airlines (NYSE: LUV).

Daquan13
Dec 23, 2005, 7:42 AM
The best keeps getting better!!!

combusean
Dec 29, 2005, 12:58 PM
From Jon Talton, an Arizona Republic columnist

Boeing's surprising about-face (http://www.azcentral.com/business/columns/articles/1229talton29.html)

Dec. 29, 2005 12:00 AM

Boeing is on track to beat Airbus in orders for commercial airliners this year. It's the first time in five years that Boeing has regained a position that was once a given.

It's also a surprising turnaround. Since the late 1990s, Boeing has faltered against the European state-subsidized Airbus to sell to the world's airlines. It's more surprising still, considering that Boeing wasn't merely losing sales but also was mired in bad management decisions and scandal. One more sign that Boeing seemed to be another hapless American corporate giant came earlier this year when its chief executive was forced to resign over an affair with a subordinate, outed by ardent if indiscreet e-mails.

Boeing's bet on more fuel-efficient airplanes appears to be paying off. While Airbus has been distracted with its new "superjumbo," which can carry 555 passengers, Boeing is focusing on its 777 and new 787 Dreamliner. Customers are noticing. For example, Singapore Airlines recently said it is leaning toward a big Boeing order rather than buying from Airbus.

No wonder Boeing stock hit a record this month.

In the time of American industrial dominance, the 1950s, the head of the largest automaker could say, "What's good for the country is good for General Motors and vice versa." Is the same true of Boeing today?

Boeing is the nation's largest exporter. That matters more than ever in the face of record trade deficits. It also musters thousands of highly skilled technology workers and a supply chain that stretches nationwide. Boeing is a major employer in Greater Phoenix, with 5,000 workers at its Mesa helicopter plant. Hundreds of thousands of American shareholders and retirees depend on Boeing as well.

Still, the rapidly globalizing economy blurs any easy national identity and makes any calculus of national benefits more complicated.

While the majority of Boeing's 153,800 employees are in the United States, it also has workers in 67 countries. For example, in China several factories produce major assemblies and parts for Boeing planes. Joint ventures there handle composite manufacturing, airplane modification and repair. Setting up operations in countries where a company does business is a political and economic reality.

Meanwhile, Airbus claims it "supports" 100,000 American jobs in the United States. The European company recently won a $9 billion airplane order from China and said it would consider doing some assembly there.

Neither company claims to be a pure product of free-market competition. It's well known that European governments support Airbus, including through research and development grants directly tied to Airbus products. Boeing, however, is America's largest defense contractor and benefits from favorable tax treatment in Washington state, its largest employment hub. Boeing plays politics well - mostly. An effort to win a lucrative tanker lease contract from the federal government blew up into scandal when Boeing hired a former Pentagon official involved in the deal.

The comparison may be apples and oranges, but both are in the fruit section.

One thing is clear: Boeing and Airbus represent a business vision for the new century: two giants alone in combat, supported by the capital markets and public policy.

Daquan13
Dec 29, 2005, 11:51 PM
This year has been one for very fierce competition between Airbus Industrie & Boeing, as everyone knows.

Both giant co.'s are intensely vying and jockeying for the position of being Number 1.

Expect to see more of the same in '06.

While Boeing's beefed up Model 777's are taking the airlines' breath away and the sensational new 787 Dreamliner rears up for full mass production, and the highly successful 737 is still enjoying very healthful sales as the queen of the small to medium-capacity airliners, surpassing a whopping 6,000 in all varients. Boeing is also intensely getting into its new 747-8 program, which it expects to woo some of the big airlines over to sign on the dotted line for.

But across the water, Airbus is not standing idlely by.
It plans to get its A-380 in the air for revenue service, the A-330 & A-340 seem to be doing well, as is the A-320, 321, 319 & 318.

And on the heels of the 787 Dreamliner, the A-350-8 will debut in a few years, which meeans that the 787 Dreamliner will enjoy the first two years in revenue service with no rivals.

If Boeing does not get way past Airbus in aircraft sales next year, it most certainly will be in fierce competition, nonetheless.

James Bond Agent 007
Dec 30, 2005, 2:31 AM
Hmm, it looks like I've been slacking off on this thread lately. ;) . . .

Not sure if this one was a new order, or a confirmation of a previous order . .

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/252625_boeing19.html

Monday, December 19, 2005
Boeing makes another sale
Hong Kong airline to buy 737s, 787s
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER STAFF AND NEWS SERVICES

HONG KONG -- Hong Kong's CR Airways said today that it has agreed to buy a number of Boeing 737-800 and 787 passenger jets.

The airline said it would sign an agreement with The Boeing Co. on Tuesday but declined to confirm a report in The South China Morning Post that the deal would involve 30 737-800s and 10 787s at a list price of $3 billion.

The planes would be used to expand services to mainland China, the newspaper said.

CR Airways primarily offers charter flights to mainland China and regional destinations. The company's Web site says it was founded in 2001.

If confirmed, the deal would add to Boeing's burgeoning list of orders for the 787.

The Australian airline Qantas said last week that it would order up to 65 of the new fuel-efficient jets and take purchase rights for as many as 50 more.

Boeing said only 45 of the Qantas orders were firm, giving it firm orders or commitments for 354 787s.

The 787 has an average list price of $130 million.

Boeing's 787 handily leads its competition, the Airbus A350. But the A350 got a late start.

It was not until this fall that the Airbus program was officially started.

This also has been a good year for 737 sales.

Boeing has won 465 orders for the 737 this year, and that does not include 75 jets that China has said it will buy. The 737 backlog was 1,042 planes at the end of November.

A second 737 production line has just opened in the Renton plant. Boeing could soon be building a record number of 737s per month -- more than 31 -- and even higher rates are planned, a person close to the program has said.

The year has been a banner one for the jetliner industry, with Boeing this month reporting orders for more than 800 aircraft and Airbus for nearly 700.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This out today:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/1310AP_Boeing_Avion_Group.html

Thursday, December 29, 2005 · Last updated 10:15 a.m. PT
Boeing: Avion orders four 777 Freighters
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

SEATTLE -- Boeing Co. disclosed Thursday that Avion Group, an Icelandic company that leases and operates planes for other carriers, had ordered four additional 777 Freighters.

Chicago-based Boeing had previously listed the buyer of the four planes as "unidentified." The order could be worth up to $928 million at list prices, although airplane customers typically negotiate steep discounts.

Avion Group had already announced an initial four-plane order for the widebody cargo planes in September.

The company said the airplanes will be operated by its subsidiary, Air Atlanta Icelandic. It will take delivery of the freighters beginning in February 2009.

The plane will only be available with General Electric Co. engines.

Boeing shares rose 48 cents to to $71.44 in midday trading Thursday on the New York Stock Exchange, close to its 52-week high of $72.40.

Daquan13
Dec 30, 2005, 3:02 AM
The one about the four 777F's, I just got today also, in an e-mail from Boeing.

The orders for their planes are racking up so fast that it's making my head spin!!

James Bond Agent 007
Dec 30, 2005, 3:10 AM
^
Do you know if the CR Airways was a new one, or a confirmation of a previous annoucement?

I'm not really familiar with Chinese airlines so I can't say whether that name looks familiar from earlier in the year or not.

Daquan13
Dec 30, 2005, 3:17 AM
I think that one was or is a confirmation of a previous announcement.

I remember them racking up a ton of 787's not too long ago. Sometime during late summer or early to mid fall.

Earlier this year, they and or their subsidiaries had started putting in massive orders for the Dreamliner. Boeing was expecting more carriers in that sector to clinch deals for even more of those planes, which I think they've done.

And yes, you're right! Quantas has also switched gears and has decided to get on the bandwagon with giant orders for the 787 Dreamliner. They still have the A-380 on order, but last I heard of that, they were planning to file for damages from Airbus for the delivery delay of the first plane.

Also, not to be left out of the game, Air Canada is another carrier who placed massive mind-boggling orders with Boeing for tons of the 787 & 777, totalling untold billions.

It seems that all of a sudden, these carriers are just coming out of the woodwork to get new planes from Boeing & Airbus.

USAirways has just signed up for some of the A-350's not too long ago. Now that they've successfully aquired America West, they have emerged from Chapter 11 and are strong and competetive once again. So now, they are in a postition to dispose of older aging planes and buy newer ones.

James Bond Agent 007
Dec 31, 2005, 6:43 AM
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2002711405_boeing30.html

Friday, December 30, 2005
Boeing's big year upstages Airbus
By Dominic Gates
Seattle Times aerospace reporter

When top Boeing leaders converge next week for their annual executive retreat in Orlando, Fla., commercial-airplanes chief Alan Mulally can expect a welcome worthy of a prince at Disney's Magic Kingdom.

In a year when Boeing suffered a monthlong Machinists strike and turbulence in the boardroom after Chief Executive Harry Stonecipher was ousted over an affair with an employee, airplane orders kept rolling in without interruption. Barring an unlikely last-minute reversal, Boeing will top Airbus in 2005 commercial-jet sales for the first time in five years.

"The orders this year are ... an endorsement by the airlines of the world," Mulally said in an end-of-year interview. "What's being validated here is the Boeing Commercial Airplanes strategy for the last six years. That's the incredible story of 2005."

Mulally's triumphant perspective challenges the widespread industry view of his company over that time period. For most of the past six years, Boeing has seemed adrift, searching vainly for a strategy to slow the rise of its seemingly unstoppable European nemesis.

Until now. With the worldwide airline industry taking off everywhere outside the U.S., Boeing is set to surpass the total of 965 gross orders in 1988, its best order year ever. (Gross orders are the new firm orders for a year. In subsequent years, some of these orders may be canceled to produce a different "net order" figure for the year.)

So far this year, Boeing has announced 895 firm orders. The final tally will not be publicly released for a week or two after a flurry of last-minute deals are sealed. But according to a Boeing insider, an internal sales projection earlier this month forecast a 2005 total — counting an expected 68-jet order from Air India — of just over 1,000 gross orders.

That should handily best Airbus, which has so far announced 749 firm orders for the year.

Boeing won't quite hit an all-time record because there were more gross orders in 1989. However, so many of those orders were canceled after the Persian Gulf War that 1989 ranks as only the second best net sales year after 1988. (See the accompanying chart.)

Boeing has an even bigger lead over Airbus in the value of its 2005 orders. The year's sales skewed heavily toward the more expensive and more profitable wide-body jets. Based on list prices, Boeing's order book so far this year totals about $100 billion, $30 billion more than Airbus'.

Though Airbus is now flying the largest commercial jet in the world, the A380, sales of the plane have stalled. And outside that exclusive superjumbo niche, Boeing this year has established dominance in sales of big jets, especially the 777 and the 787.

Boeing's recent wide-body sales campaigns — with Emirates of the Middle East, Cathay Pacific of Hong Kong and Qantas of Australia — have been so successful that Airbus has to worry about a Boeing lock across a range of big-airplane categories.

After a tumultuous decline in Boeing's fortunes in the late 1990s that allowed Airbus to soar past its American rival as the world's No. 1 airplane manufacturer, Mulally can now reasonably claim to have turned things around.

How did Boeing do it?

Analysts on both sides of the Atlantic point to decisive advantages that have emerged in the Boeing lineup of airplanes and to a new aggressiveness in sales campaigns.

First, the new 787 airplane program has raked in orders all year.

"It's caught fire," said Boeing critic Philip Lawrence, a professor at the University of the West of England (UWE) in Bristol, who has worked as a consultant to Airbus and is the author of "Deep Stall," a highly critical history of Boeing commercial airplanes. "The concept of the airplane and the way it's been sold has captured the customers' imagination."

Boeing pitches the 787 as a lightweight, fuel-thrifty jet.

"When the buzzword in the industry is cost-saving, this is a good aircraft to be introducing," said Rob Spingarn, a financial analyst with investment-banking firm CSFB.

Airbus' direct response, the A350, is two years behind the 787 and is fighting the perception that it's a modified A330 rather than an all-new jet.

But Boeing's dominance this year also comes from the twin-engine 777 eclipsing the four-engine A340. That's partly due to Airbus' failure to deliver on performance promises for its long-range A340 models.

"It's a pretty open secret that the in-service reliability of these aircraft has disappointed customers like Virgin Atlantic and Cathay Pacific," said Lawrence, of UWE. "[Their] performance has let Airbus down and given Boeing a big opportunity with the 777."

This year's breakthrough sales wins clearly depended also on pricing. Boeing sales chief Scott Carson has led a series of decisive campaigns offering big discounts and closing deals against Airbus supersalesman John Leahy.

"For years, seemed to be in thrall to John Leahy," said Lawrence. "Carson and his team have done a great job. Boeing has clearly reinvigorated the whole sales side."

In July 2004, fast-growing Middle East carrier Emirates ordered eight long-range A340s, saying no to the 777. That morning, Boeing Vice President Dan Becker warned workers in a speech at the Everett factory that the 777 was too expensive to compete and that the program had to reduce costs dramatically.

The combination of Becker's cost-cutting and the newly aggressive pricing, with help from Airbus missteps, has succeeded big time. In November, Emirates placed a massive order for 42 777s.

Airbus is scrambling to produce a new A340 derivative that can stand up to the 777. Until it does, there's a huge market segment — airplanes with 300 to 550 seats — that is Boeing's for the taking.

[b]Boeing smart all along?

Underlying Boeing's strategy for the past six years, said Mulally, has been its view of the future of aviation as requiring smaller airplanes for nonstop, point-to-point flights.

While Airbus boldly pushed ahead development of the A380 superjumbo, Boeing retreated from bigger versions of the 747 in the late 1990s and then again from its superfast Sonic Cruiser concept in 2002.

"We don't rush into things," Mulally said. "We watch [Airbus] very carefully. We don't make moves because of what they are doing. We make moves when it is time to make a move.

"That might look a little less flamboyant," he said, but, "... The important thing is focus and discipline and patience."

CSFB's Spingarn is not entirely convinced.

"It looks like Boeing made all these very intelligent decisions," he said. "The truth of the matter is they were pushed into some of them and got lucky because Airbus decided to put almost all its eggs into the [A380] basket."

Lawrence — whose book dismissing Boeing's strategic approach was published, unluckily, just as the turnaround took hold — dismisses Mulally's take as "complete rubbish."

Lawrence said even Boeing managers he talked to considered the company to be in a tailspin a few years back and lacking strategic direction.

"I'm prepared to be very open-minded about Boeing's great achievements over the last 12 months," he said. "I don't buy this revisionist history of their strategy before that."

Money to flow in

For now, "Boeing is in the catbird seat," as Spingarn puts it.

This year's feast of orders will translate in the next few years into a rapid ramp-up in production in Boeing's Puget Sound-area factories. A closely held internal analysis, provided by a company insider, projects that commercial airplane deliveries will jump from 290 this year to almost 400 next year, just shy of 500 by 2008 and beyond that in 2009 and 2010.

As planes roll out, cash will roll in.

This year the commercial side of Boeing's business will account for about 40 percent of revenue, with the military side dominant. But even though the commercial division shrank significantly in 2005 with the sale of its major parts plant in Wichita, Kan., the internal analysis projects that by 2008, the unit's revenue will be almost on par with the defense-side income.

As a result, by 2010, total company revenue is projected to be up more than 50 percent from this year. If that sky-high projection pans out, Boeing's roll is just beginning.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2005/12/29/2002711158.gif

Daquan13
Dec 31, 2005, 8:21 AM
The 777, technically, was already a big hit from the days of it's infancy in the
early '90's. It more or less slowed down a little after 09-11.

But when it entered service with the major airlines, some of them thought so highly of it that they put it on routes formerly served by aging 747-100 & -200 series aircraft. The plane already had about 700 more nautical miles range than Boeing's own 747-400.

When the two latest varients of the plane, plus the F-version was announced, the craft began to pick up steam all over again. Now it seems to be scoring and racking up huge massive orders big time!!

James Bond Agent 007
Jan 6, 2006, 2:30 AM
:banana:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/1310AP_Boeing_Airplane_Orders.html

Thursday, January 5, 2006 · Last updated 2:16 p.m. PT
Boeing gets record plane orders in 2005
By ALLISON LINN
AP BUSINESS WRITER

SEATTLE -- Boeing Co. said Thursday it set a company record for commercial airplane orders in 2005, while also more than tripling the number of jet orders from the previous year.

The Chicago aerospace company said it had received 1,002 net airplane orders during 2005. That beats the company's previous record set in 1988, when Boeing and McDonnell Douglas, which have since merged, booked 877 net orders.

In 2004, Boeing had 272 net commercial airplane orders.

The net order number represents the total passenger and freighter planes the company has sold minus any canceled or converted orders. Boeing, which assembles most of its commercial jets in the Seattle area, booked 1,029 gross orders in 2005.

The milestone marks a significant turnaround for Boeing, which had been losing ground to European rival Airbus SAS.

"I don't think anybody in their wildest dreams at the beginning of the year thought they would do this well," aviation analyst Scott Hamilton with Leeham Co. LLC said Thursday.

But as the year went on, Hamilton said rising fuel prices prompted more airlines to sign on for Boeing's newer, fuel-efficient offerings, including the widebody 777 and the new 787, due to enter service in 2008.

Meanwhile, Hamilton said Airbus had less success in part because the company lagged Boeing in offering its A350, which will compete directly with the 787 and is scheduled to enter service in 2010.

Airbus said Thursday it had booked 687 firm jet orders through November and expects to release a full tally for the year on Jan. 17.

Hamilton said he expected 2006 to offer a more accurate barometer of the head-to-head competition between the A350 and the 787. Overall, he's expecting fewer orders this year than last, in part because many U.S. carriers are still suffering amid high fuel prices and changing business models.

Boeing had booked 870 net jetliner orders as of Dec. 20. Since then, the company said it had won orders for 10 737s from Germany's DBA, which had said in November it would buy 40 737s as part of a fleet expansion.

The company also announced new orders for two 737s from Turkmenistan Airlines; eight 787s from Low-Cost Aircraft Leasing and two 787s from Continental Airlines Inc. WestJet Airlines Ltd. also exercised previously announced options for four 737s.

The company also finalized previously announced commitments for 68 737s, 777s and 787s from Air India; 20 737s from China Southern Airlines; six 737s from Hainan Airlines; 5 737s from Shanghai Airlines; four 737s for China Eastern Airlines and five 737s for Shenzhen Airlines.

Overall, Boeing said it received 569 orders for its 737 model, 154 orders for the 777, and 235 orders for the 787 in 2005. Those figures exceeded previous records of 438, 116 and 56, respectively.

The company also cited strong performances by its 747 and 767 programs, with 43 and 15 net new orders, respectively.

Not all the news was good for Boeing. Also Thursday, Banc of America analysts downgraded the stock to "neutral" from "buy," saying it is likely to stagnate after a strong run last year.

Boeing shares fell 84 cents, or 1.2 percent, to close at $70.33 Thursday on the New York Stock Exchange. Shares reached an all-time high of $72.40 on Dec. 27, amid early reports that the company would enjoy a strong year for airplane orders.

Daquan13
Jan 6, 2006, 3:01 AM
Not much is heard on the 767 these days.

But Boeing maintains that it's still going strong.

STR
Jan 6, 2006, 3:23 AM
The 767 is dead. The corruption case that tainted the KC-767 is what did it. Congress balked at the lease-to-buy plan and the extreme overcharging that went with it, resulting in the cancellation of the KC-767 and the 767 as a whole.

The successor to the aged KC-135 looks increasingly to be the 777. The 767 had an oppertunity, but the moment has passed.

Daquan13
Jan 6, 2006, 3:52 AM
Like the 707, 727, DC-8, DC-9 & DC-10 / L-1011 before it, along with the MD 11, the 767 might be coming back more than likely as a freighter, if at all possible. Usually when a plane has exhausted it's life as a psssenger jet, it begins its life as a freighter.
But this would normally be the case with planes already within an airline's fleet.

Freighters are still being built on the production line for a few of the airlines and some airlines have begun to convert existing 767's in their fleets over to freighters.

About the only varient still in production now is the 767-300-ER and I think the -400-ER. As far as I know, only Delta, Continental and a leasing firm had ordered the -400 series craft. Boeing in '00, had predicted a then-future 20-year healthy sales outlook for this varient. But a year later, along came 09-11 which pretty much killed that idea.

And you might be right! The KC-767 scandel has just about hurt the 767 program altogether. And the 787 Dreamliner is pretty much attracting future orders away from the 767. This new plane is being sold like hotcakes.

Just like the Cabbage Patch dolls flew off the store shelves nationwide during the Christmas season of '83, this plane has booked itself solid for the first three years in production alone! Any future orders coming in for this plane from airlines, they're forced to wait until 2010 to get first dibs unless Boeing can master a plan to get a double production line going.

Not only that. Boeing is also contemplating making an even BIGGER 787 that would almost match the already massive 777! How much further will they go to acheive further greatness? They certainly seem determined to boldly go where no man has gone before!!

STR
Jan 6, 2006, 9:29 PM
Ugh...you quoted Star Trek.





NERD!

Daquan13
Jan 6, 2006, 9:44 PM
I figured that you'd notice that.

James Bond Agent 007
Jan 7, 2006, 8:29 AM
Chart from the Tacoma paper showing Boeing's orders by year since 1988.

http://www.thenewstribune.com/images/unisys-images/20060106-images/NWS0106_BOEING_G.JPG

And inside shot of the 737 plant in Renton:

http://www.thenewstribune.com/images/unisys-images/20060106-images/NWS0106_BOEING_P.JPG

Article here is similar to the last one I posted above:
http://www.thenewstribune.com/business/story/5440882p-4912681c.html

Daquan13
Jan 7, 2006, 2:06 PM
James, you mentioned in one of the stories from Boeing that they are or will be making the 737-900.

Is this plane supposed to be even longer than the -800 series? I'm suprised that they haven't gone to the -8 series on this plane yet, like they're doing with some of the others.

James Bond Agent 007
Jan 8, 2006, 12:47 AM
^Dunno. Maybe one of the articles posted in this thread explains about that.

sammyk
Jan 9, 2006, 6:42 AM
James, you mentioned in one of the stories from Boeing that they are or will be making the 737-900.


The 737-900? It's been around for some time now. The first was delivered to Alaska Airlines in 2001. What is new in that series is the -900ER. The first of this model will be delivered in 2007 to Lion Air.

If I have taken your question out of context, I apologize!

Daquan13
Jan 9, 2006, 8:40 AM
What else will the -900ER have besides extended range?

Yeah, you're right. That HAS been out for a while now. It's the -900ER that's new.

Daquan13
Jan 19, 2006, 3:28 PM
The story of the 777-200LR Worldliner's world-record-breaking non-stop flight between Hong Kong and London appears in the February issue of Airways Magazine. It's on sale now.

STR
Jan 19, 2006, 9:52 PM
What else will the -900ER have besides extended range?

Rearranged emergency exits that comply with FAA and EU specs. The basic dash 900 is only flying in the US because of a waiver from the FAA. The EU didn't oblige, as the FAA didn't when the A321 entered service with the same issue. Tit for tat.

Daquan13
Jan 19, 2006, 10:36 PM
Rearranged emergency exits that comply with FAA and EU specs. The basic dash 900 is only flying in the US because of a waiver from the FAA. The EU didn't oblige, as the FAA didn't when the A321 entered service with the same issue. Tit for tat.



What is EU?

JiminyCricket II
Jan 19, 2006, 10:53 PM
. . . the European Union....

...
...

Daquan13
Jan 19, 2006, 11:04 PM
Thank you.

Daquan13
Jan 27, 2006, 2:56 PM
SEATTLE, January 26, 2006 --Boeing [NYSE: BA] marks an engineering milestone today as company engineers complete 90% of the drawings for the newest 737 member, the 737-900ER.

The milestone means that nearly all of the engineering work necessary to built parts and tools for assembly has been completed and released to manufacturing.

"This is a very critical milestone for the airplane as we make the transition from the development phase to the production phase," said Mike Delaney, 737 chief project engineer. "With most of the drawings complete, our suppiers
and fabrication plants can begin manufacturing detailed parts."

The design was milestone was reached right on the target date, as Boeing works to begin final assembly of the first 737-900ER this spring at the company's Renton, Washington plant.

Launched in July 2005 with a 30-airplane oreder from Indonesian carrier Lion Air, the 737-900ER is designed to carry up to 215 passengers and fly up to 3,200 nautical miles (5,925 km).

The first 737-900ER is scheduled for delivery in the first half of 2007 after a five-month flight test program, which will include two flight test airplanes.

The newest derivative design incorporates an additional pair of exit doors, a flat rear pressure bulkhead, and aerodynamic and strutural design changes that will enhance low-speed and cruise performances. These changes will also include strengthen wings, a two-position tailskid, enhancements to the leading and trailing edge flap systems, and optional Blended Winglets and auxilary fuel tankage.

Powered by the CFM Int'l CFM567B turbofan engines, the new derivative will have substantial economic advantages over the competing A-321, including 9% lower operating costs per trip and 7% lower operating costs (fuel-burned per-seat).

JiminyCricket II
Feb 1, 2006, 5:04 PM
Boeing quarterly profit more than doubles

By Mike Colias

The Associated Press


CHICAGO (AP) — Boeing Co. on Wednesday said its fourth-quarter earnings more than doubled as the huge aerospace company's resurgent commercial airplane division posted strong gains.

The company also raised its profit outlook for 2006, citing better operating performance.

Its shares rose $2.79, or 4 percent, to $71.10 in premarket trading, approaching the high end of its 52-week range of $50.07 to $72.40.

Boeing's fourth quarter net income rose to $460 million, or 58 cents per share, up from $186 million, or 23 cents per share a year earlier. The year-ago profit was depressed by heavy charges for ending production of its 717 jet and writing off its loss of a controversial Pentagon contract.

Chicago-based Boeing reported fourth-quarter revenue of $14.2 billion, up from $13.3 billion a year earlier but below Wall Street estimates of $14.8 billion.

Boeing's Seattle-based commercial airplane division had operating earnings of $330 million, up from a $149 million loss in fourth quarter 2004.

For the full year, Boeing's net profits grew 37 percent to $2.6 billion, capping a year in which it closed the gap on Airbus for the world's top spot in commercial aviation. Boeing's earnings amounted to $3.20 a share in 2005 versus $1.87 billion, or $2.30 a share, a year ago.

Toulouse, France-based Airbus said earlier this month it unexpectedly beat Boeing's tally for jet orders last year. But Boeing surpassed Airbus in value terms after winning 70 percent of global orders for larger, pricier planes, led by its fuel-efficient 787 Dreamliner.

Boeing increased its 2006 earnings per share forecast to between $3.25 and $3.45, up from $3.10 to $3.30, citing better operating performance and a lower-than-expected tax charge in the first quarter.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2002776134_webboeing01.html

ltsmotorsport
Feb 1, 2006, 7:42 PM
With all these orders stacking up, would they need a plant expansion, or maybe a new plant to fill these orders, and have the potential for taking on more orders?

Daquan13
Feb 1, 2006, 9:06 PM
Boeing quarterly profit more than doubles

By Mike Colias

The Associated Press


CHICAGO (AP) — Boeing Co. on Wednesday said its fourth-quarter earnings more than doubled as the huge aerospace company's resurgent commercial airplane division posted strong gains.

The company also raised its profit outlook for 2006, citing better operating performance.

Its shares rose $2.79, or 4 percent, to $71.10 in premarket trading, approaching the high end of its 52-week range of $50.07 to $72.40.

Boeing's fourth quarter net income rose to $460 million, or 58 cents per share, up from $186 million, or 23 cents per share a year earlier. The year-ago profit was depressed by heavy charges for ending production of its 717 jet and writing off its loss of a controversial Pentagon contract.

Chicago-based Boeing reported fourth-quarter revenue of $14.2 billion, up from $13.3 billion a year earlier but below Wall Street estimates of $14.8 billion.

Boeing's Seattle-based commercial airplane division had operating earnings of $330 million, up from a $149 million loss in fourth quarter 2004.

For the full year, Boeing's net profits grew 37 percent to $2.6 billion, capping a year in which it closed the gap on Airbus for the world's top spot in commercial aviation. Boeing's earnings amounted to $3.20 a share in 2005 versus $1.87 billion, or $2.30 a share, a year ago.

Toulouse, France-based Airbus said earlier this month it unexpectedly beat Boeing's tally for jet orders last year. But Boeing surpassed Airbus in value terms after winning 70 percent of global orders for larger, pricier planes, led by its fuel-efficient 787 Dreamliner.

Boeing increased its 2006 earnings per share forecast to between $3.25 and $3.45, up from $3.10 to $3.30, citing better operating performance and a lower-than-expected tax charge in the first quarter.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2002776134_webboeing01.html



I thought Boeing might have beaten them in some form or fashion.

James Bond Agent 007
Feb 2, 2006, 1:59 AM
With all these orders stacking up, would they need a plant expansion, or maybe a new plant to fill these orders, and have the potential for taking on more orders?
No. The capacity they have has been enough to build similar amounts of planes in the past. Plus, their new manufacturing methods are far more efficient now, so they don't really need so much space.

Daquan13
Feb 2, 2006, 7:46 AM
Which is probably why there's no mention of expanding at all for 787 Dreamliner production.

STR
Feb 2, 2006, 7:02 PM
I thought Boeing might have beaten them in some form or fashion.

Didn't you ever wonder how Airbus pulled off its last minute surge after being behind for the entire year? Deep discounts to get airlines to sign before the 31st.

Daquan13
Feb 3, 2006, 6:23 AM
Well, Boeing is sort of like the old mini series Columbo.

They work long, slow & methodically. Then, just when things seem impossible, they make a surprise move that stuns unsuspecting people.

And BTW, they DID beat Airbus in one respect. The 777-200LR Worldliner. That plane has unseated & dethroned the A-340-500 as the new world's longest-range commcercial jetliner.

Daquan13
Feb 5, 2006, 2:22 AM
SEATTLE, February 02, 2006 -- The world's longest-range commercial jetliner,
the Boeing [NYSE; BA]777-200LR Worldliner, is now certified by U.S. and European authorities to enter into service with airlines around the world. The 777-200LR (Longer Range) Worldliner is the fifth and newest member of the market-leading 777 airplane family.

Certification approval by the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) formally recognizes that the 777-200LR Worldliner has successfully completed all testing and safety requirements during its six-month flight-test program.

"The 777-200LR Worldliner will revolutionize the way that people travel with the ability to connect just about any two cities around the world," said Lars Anderson, vice president and program manager, 777 Program, Boeing Commercial Airplanes. "The 777 -200LR Worldliner is very fuel efficient, has more range, and carries more passengers and cargo than the competition."

The FAA and EASA certifications grant an amended type certificate for the 777 and a production certificate authorizing Boeing to build the 777-200LR Worldliner and deliver it to airlines for passenger service. the first 777-200LR Worldliner will be delivered to Pakistan International Airlines later this month.

"The 777-200LR Worldliner has preformed very well throughout its comprehensive flight test program for certification," said Bob Buchholz, chief engineer, 777 Safety, Certification and Performance. "In addition, the certification work will benefit us as we continue to develop the 777 Freighter."

Two 777-200LR Worldliner flight test airplanes had completed 886 flight hours on 328 flights and 318 ground test hours. On both test airplanes, 27.8 miles of wiring were installed for the instrumentation used to record flight test data.
More than 73 terabits (73 followed by 12 zeros) of data were recorded and anylized. Boeing kept an online journal of the 777-200LR Worldliner flight test activity, which is avialable at http://www.boeing.com/commercial777family/200LR/flight_test/.

To develop the 777-200LR Worldliner, Boeing strengthened the airplane's primary structure to accommdate an increased gross weight for take-off and higher engine thrust. Also, provisions were added to allow the 777-200LR Worldliner to carry up to three fuel tanks. This work enables the airplane to carry more fuel, which allows it to fly farther and to serve as the platform for the 777 Freighter.

The 777-200LR Worldliner uses many of the same advances developed with the 777-300ER (Extended Range) such as raked-back wingtips and other drag-reducing improvements, and tail-strike protection. The 777-200LR Worldliner is powered by the GE90-110B1L, a rerated version of the powerful GE90-115BL
used on the 777-300ER.

The 777-200LR Worldliner is capable of connecting vertually any two cities in the world nonstop. In service, it can carry 301 passengers up to 9,420 nautical miles (17,445 kilometers).

In addition to Pakistan Int'l airlines, EVA, Emirates, Air Canada, and Air India have also ordered the 777-200LR Worldliner. To date, 44 airlines around the world have ordered 827 777s.:banana:

James Bond Agent 007
Feb 14, 2006, 4:01 AM
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2002802118_boeing13.html

Monday, February 13, 2006
Boeing's workhorse 737 hits milestone: No. 5,000
By Dominic Gates
Seattle Times aerospace reporter

Small and pushing 40, as mundane as a flight from Seattle to Oakland, it's easily overlooked as a Northwest icon. But more than any other commercial airplane, the 737 brought air travel within reach of ordinary Americans.

Today in Renton, Boeing rolls out its 5,000th, marking the single-aisle jet as by far the most successful jet in the history of commercial aviation.

Sure, the flashier, Everett-built 747 jumbo jet shrank the world by connecting continents. And both the Boeing 727 tri-jet and the Douglas DC-9 played key roles in opening up domestic travel.

But the 737, in continuous production since 1968, shifted the economics of domestic flying and brought air travel to the masses. Its swift turnaround times, fuel efficiency and ability to operate from small airports produced low-fare carriers and drew a dense network of air routes on the map of North America.

"The 737s helped pull people off the buses and off the freeways," said Terry Trippler, a longtime airline expert and passenger advocate.

Only 830 passenger planes with 100-plus seats were operating in North America when Boeing launched the 737 program in 1965. Last year, according to the AirClaims CASE database, there were 4,450 — and more than 30 percent were 737s.

"The 737 made air travel in the U.S. available to any person who wants to do it," said Joe Sutter, retired chief engineer on the 747 jumbo-jet program, who also played a big role in the early stages of the 737. "It was almost a revolution."

Ironically, in the late 1960s, the 737 and 747 development programs were not Boeing's foremost priorities. Sutter said both programs were starved for engineers because they competed with the higher-status Supersonic Transport airplane and Apollo moon-landing projects.

The government canceled the supersonic jet in 1971 and ended manned missions to the moon in 1972. Still going strong, the 747 and the 737 made Boeing what it is today.

The 737 is Boeing's cash cow. Though one can sell for as low as $30 million after discounts — compared with upward of $150 million for a widebody — 737s still deliver about half of Boeing's total airplane revenue. Of the 290 jets Boeing delivered last year, 212 were 737s.

Though Boeing does not divulge workforce figures by facility, about 5,500 people work directly on the 737 program in Renton, according to a company insider.

That number has risen by several hundred in the past three months as Boeing prepares to quicken production from 24 jets per month now to 28 a month later this year.

The jet faces fierce competition from the Airbus A320 family. The A320 first entered service in 1988. By the end of last year, Airbus had delivered 2,563.

To compete, Boeing has constantly refreshed the 737 lineup. Last month, it announced yet another new derivative.

Designed to grow

Sutter, now 84, was one of two engineers named on the 737 patent. Each of them earned a standard $50 bonus for that.

He made one crucial early decision in designing the plane: to put the engines under the wings, rather than on either side of the tail as in other small jets of the time. The first 737s were distinctively short and stubby.

They also didn't have much range, and airlines sometimes used them like flying buses. Trippler recalls flying in the early 1970s with Western Airlines on a route from Minneapolis to Sioux Falls, S.D., to Pierre, S.D., to Rapid City S.D., to Casper, Wyo., to Denver, to Salt Lake City and finally to Las Vegas.

"Up and down, up and down, up and down," said Trippler. "You got on that sucker in Minneapolis going to Las Vegas, you thought you were never going to get there.

"They were the puddle-jumpers," he said. "They hopped."

But Sutter's decision to balance the heavy engines in the middle of the airframe meant it was easier to extend the 737 into longer versions, by splicing extra lengths into the fuselage, fore and aft of the wings.

So over the years, the 737 has grown out of its baby fat, stretching and stretching until today's longest model can carry twice as many passengers as the original.

Years ago, Trippler said, he wasn't so fond of the 737. Today, his airline of choice is low-cost carrier Sun Country out of Minneapolis, flying a fleet of 737-800s. He recently flew nonstop to Anchorage.

"It's the way I fly," he said. "I love the airplane now."

Taking delivery of jet number 5,000 today will be Southwest Airlines, which picked up its first 737 in 1971. This will be its 449th.

"The 737 always has been the perfect aircraft for our mission," said Southwest spokeswoman Beth Harbin. "The aircraft is so efficient and so reliable."

Because the 737 is designed low to the ground for easy baggage loading and maintenance, and requires no special jetways, Southwest can turn the airplane around — from pulling up at the gate to being ready to leave again — in just 25 minutes. In turn, that means its jets can average seven or eight flights daily.

Boeing configures the 737s to ensure equipment is standard from model to model — important for maintenance crews, cabin attendants and pilots, especially on low-cost operations like Southwest.

George Cook worked on the flight test of the first 737 and now, at 69, still installs and tests 737 flight boxes in Renton. He said the new Next Generation 737s that entered service in 1998 included far more advanced computer-controlled avionics systems, with digital cockpit displays.

Yet for Southwest pilots moving from one model to another in their all-737 fleet, Boeing keeps things totally familiar by programming the displays on Southwest's jets so they look like the old, round dials with needles swinging back and forth — just like the original 737 flight panels that Cook worked with back in 1967.

Next generations

But there's more to the 737 than the low-cost, low-fare Southwest model. There's also the ultra-luxury 737-based Boeing Business Jet, an air limousine for oil sheiks and heads of state. Last month, Boeing unveiled plans for a new commercial version of that executive jet, the 737-700ER, for airlines targeting intercontinental business travelers.

The plane's long-term future also includes military variants. Boeing is setting up a separate production line in Renton to build the Navy's 737-based P-8A submarine hunter, scheduled to fly in 2009.

The Navy order should ensure manufacturing of 737s beyond 2020, though the commercial version will end production in favor of a new model sometime around 2015.

And because the military flies its workhorse aircraft for a very long time — 40-year-old B-52 bombers and KC-135 air-refueling tankers are still in use — the P-8A could greatly extend the life of the 737.

"We're building a 50-plus-year airplane," said Tim Norgart, director of business development on the P-8A program.

That raises the mind-blowing possibility that 737 airframes will be crisscrossing the oceans of planet Earth 100 years after Boeing launched the program.

Daquan13
Feb 14, 2006, 12:08 PM
Or at least go from CA to Honolulu like the 757 does now.

When Sutter helped design the "baby twinjet" back in the mid '60s, one of his coworkers felt that the plane should have only two engines, and that design was adopted.

This plane has even beaten the 757, which it ended up replacing in production!

Daquan13
Feb 18, 2006, 3:33 PM
LONG BEACH, California , Feb 08, 2006 -- The Boeing [NYSE: BA] Company began production on it's final 717 jetliner this week, and is moving the craft along its assembly line in Long Beah Calif.. This milestone marks the fianal phase of assembly before the airplane delivers to airline customer Air Tran Airways in May.

The craft is the 156th 717 made by Boeing. The 717 program helped shape
Boeing bisness practices through its supplier partnerships and applying priciples of lean manufacturing.

"We challenged the traditonal way of thinkiing and operating to create a great airplane at a reasonable cost.," said Pat McKenna, vice president and general manager od the 717 program. "From its concept to its production, this aiurplane has been a team effort that benefits the world's airlines and passengers."

Developed by Mc Donnell Douglas as the MD-95 and renamed the 717 after the merger with Beoing in '97, the 100-seat craft will provide excellent economics, performance and reliability to the world's airlines for years to come.

The 717 model is the last commercial airplane produced in the Southern California factory. More than 15,000 airplanes have been made in Long Beach
since the plant opened in 1941.:(

James Bond Agent 007
Mar 28, 2006, 1:27 AM
Monday, March 27, 2006 - Page updated at 12:15 PM
Boeing will build stretched 787, program chief says
By James Gunsalus
Bloomberg

Boeing will build a stretched version of its 787 jetliner that seats about 300 passengers, spurred by demand from customers including Emirates airlines.

"It's not a matter of if, but when we are going to do it," Michael Bair, head of Boeing's 787 program, said today on a conference call with reporters. "We now have three versions and there have been a few customers, most notably Emirates, that have asked us to look at a stretched version with roughly 300 seats."

The stretched 787 would be called the 787-10 and enter service in 2012, Bair said. Boeing is working with Emirates now to see if the 787-10 meets their requirements and "a fair amount" of engineering work has already been done, he said.

Boeing is counting on the fuel-efficient 787 Dreamliner to win back dominance of the $60-billion-a-year jetliner market from Airbus SAS.

Boeing has 368 orders and commitments from 28 customers for the new plane, including 298 firm orders, Bair said. Toulouse, France based Airbus has 91 firm orders for its competing A350.

Boeing has approved construction of three models of the 787. The initial version, the 787-8, will have 210 to 250 seats and have a flying range of 8,000 to 8,500 nautical miles (14,800 to 15,700 kilometers). The 787-9, seating 250 to 290 and flying as far as 8,800 miles, is scheduled to enter service in 2010. The 787-3 will carry as many as 330 people over shorter distances.

The first 787 is scheduled to be delivered in 2008. List prices for the aircraft range from $132 million to $150.5 million and don't include discounts traditionally given to airlines. Airbus's A350, approved for production in October, will enter service in 2010 and lists for $158.6 million to $165.3 million.

Customers for the 787 include Australia's Qantas Airways Ltd., Air India Ltd. and Japan's All Nippon Airways Co. Airbus, which launched the A350 in October, has firm orders for the plane from customers including Bangkok Airways Co. and U.S. Airways Group Inc., according to its Web site.

Daquan13
Mar 28, 2006, 1:42 AM
The best keeps getting better!

You go, Boeing!!:banana:

Daquan13
Mar 29, 2006, 5:07 PM
SEATTLE, March 29,2006 - The Boeing Company [NYSE] and GE Commercial Aviation Services (GECAS) today announced an odrer for 30 firm and 30 options on Boeing next Generation 737s worth approximately $4 billion at list prices. Included in this agreement is the first 737-900ER order by an aircraft leasing company.

GECAS will take delivery of the 30 firm airplanes from 2008 to 2010.

Today's announcement brings to 68 the number of 737s GECAS had ordered during the past two years. In 2005. GECAS ordered 26 737sw and was identified as the customer for 12 planes ordered in 2004.

Today's announcement also brings GECAS total orders of Boeing jetliners - all within the past decade - to 333.

"We currently have more than 200 Boeing Next Generation 737 aircraft in our fleet, leased to more than 30 different
airline customers around the world," said Henry Hubschman - president and CEO of GECAS. "It is a very popular aircraft
model and we quickly leased all of the planes we ordered last year, so we needed to satisfy our customers' demand."

In 2006, Boeing is delivering 30 737s to GECAS and its customer airlines. This spring, Boeing will deliver GECAS' 150th Next-Generation 737.

"GECAS continues to demonstrate the great popularity of the 737 in the industry and among our top Next-Generation 737 customer," said john Feren, vice president of Leasing & Asset Management for Boeing Commercial Airplanes. "We are especially pleased that GECAS has chosen the -900ER, the latest addition to the 737 family," Feren noted. "We also appreciate the fact that GECAS has also been instrumental in the introduction of the 737 to new customers
throughout the world."

The Next-Generation 737 airplane is the most technologically advanced single-aisle jetliner family on the market today.
the jets fly higher, faster, farther and more quietly than competing models. A major aspect of the Next-Generation 737's versatility is the fact that all are powered byCFM56-7B turbofan engines, which offer unmatched reliability and also make it easy for aircraft to be transitioned from one customer to another.

As of February 28, 96 customers have placed orders for more than 3,020 Next-Generation 737; the program has more than 1,150 unfilled orders with a value of more than $73 billion at current list prices.

The 737-900ER is the newest member of the Next-Generation 737 family and seats up to 215 passengers in a single-class configuration, compared with the 189-passenger maximum for the 737-800. Boeing will deliver the first 737-900ER
in the first half of 2007. In addition to beimng nearly nine feet longer than the 737-800, the 737-900ER also features an added pair of exit doors and a flat rear pressure bulkhead.

GECAS has long since been an important Boeing customer, offering the 737, 747, 757, 767 and 777 to operators. GECAS
has been highly successful in placing Boeing planes with operators from every continent, indluding many of the world's prestigious airlines.:banana:

Daquan13
Apr 6, 2006, 12:46 AM
SEATTLE, April 05, 2006 - Boeing [NYSE: BA] today announced that the FL Group, on behalf of Icelandair, have exercised the purchase rights for two additional firm 787 Dreamliners. The airplanes will be delivered in 2012, two years after Icelandair takes delivery of its first two Dreamliners, whbich were ordered in February 2005. The airline, part of the Icelandair Group,
continues to expand its long-haul route offering flights to and from Iceland in conjunction with its fleet-growth plan. The two airplanes have a value of approximately $290m at list prices.

"As part of the launch customer team, we have been impressed by the tremendous passenger appeal of the Dreamliner. Adding the 787 to our fleet will attract even more tourism to Iceland. The Boeing 787 Dreamliner can fly to Iceland from anywhere in the world, a 6 million people marketplace. By introducing this airplane, we are opening up innumerable options for the Group's future development," said Jon Karl Olafsson, pr4esident and CEO of the icelandair Group. Icelandair has chosen the Trent 1000 turbofan engines from Rolls-Royce for its Boeing 787 fleet.

The high-technology all-new Boeing 787 Dreamliner continues to capture the interest of airline customers around the world. nTo date, the program has booked 345 firm orders with 25 customers since its April 2004 launch, making the 787 Dreamliner the most successful new airplane in Boeing history. The
Dreamliner's order book has a value of about $49b at present list prices.:banana:

Daquan13
Apr 17, 2006, 5:49 PM
SEATTLE, April 17, 2006 - Modifications continue on the 747-400 that will transport major components of the Boeing (NYSE: BA) 787 Dreamliner. The distinctive look of the aircraft crystalized late last month with the installation of the "brow", the section that's just behind the cockpit. The brow, joined to the other enlarged upper fuselage sections is what makes the freighters ideal for shipping the large composite sections and wings of the Dreamliner.

The volume of the Large Freighter's main deck wiil be 65,000 cubic feet (1,845m3) three times the cargo by volume as the 747-400 Freighter.

Two of the three airplanes that will be converted are undergoing modification at Evergreen Aviation Techgnologies Corp. in Taiwan. The third will follow later. The freightewr will make its first flight this summer and be certified by the end of the year. The first two airplanes will begin supporting 787 Dreamliner final assembly in 2007.:banana:

banned
Apr 17, 2006, 7:28 PM
The 747 LCF is "designed in Russia, but in China [ROC]". I read that in an article a few days ago, but I forget which one.

It was largely engineered in Russia and is being modifed in Tawain (ROC).

wolfie
Apr 18, 2006, 8:05 PM
Surely Boeing is lagging behind a little in terms of technology, and being forced to react to what other companies (mentioning no names) are doing, rather than innovating?

The 747 was a leap forwards, as was the 707- but the newer models look more like incremental improvements rather than revolutions in themselves. Nothing wrong with that, mind, but it doesn't grab the headlines like the first widebodies or SST's did.

sciguy0504
Apr 18, 2006, 8:15 PM
The 777 and especially the 787 are technological innovations that Airbus has had to react to. Its reactions have not garnered much attention.

wolfie
Apr 18, 2006, 8:27 PM
The 777 and especially the 787 are technological innovations that Airbus has had to react to. Its reactions have not garnered much attention.
Well, the fact that Airbus's reactions haven't had much attention is down to the media, I guess- but in terms of specific innovation, isn't it true to say that both 777 and 787 are building on Boeing/ McDonnell Douglas's previous experience of widebodies, so that fly-by-wire, weight-saving measures, tweaked aerodynamics, composites, glass cockpits, ETOPS over the ocean... and so forth, are taken as granted, and the engines are just developments of existing families, with scaled-up cores (like RR's Trent, for example). Or am I missing something?

Just be interesting to see some real cutting edge stuff being introduced in airliners, rather than the designers being conservative. For example, the Sonic Cruiser was an interesting idea which never really got the chance to prove itself.

Daquan13
Apr 18, 2006, 8:46 PM
For example, the Sonic Cruiser was an interesting idea which never really got the chance to prove itself.



Yeah, Boeing was forced to can that one since the airlines didn't cozy up to it like the the way that they are falling head over heals for the 737, 747, 777 & 787 Dreamliner jetliners.

wolfie
Apr 18, 2006, 8:59 PM
Yeah, Boeing was forced to can that one since the airlines didn't cozy up to it like the the way that they are falling head over heals for the 737, 747, 777 & 787 Dreamliner jetliners.
Which just proves my point- the 737, 747 and 777 aren't new designs, but are gradually being evolved from older aircraft (and most of Airbus's range is, too- I'm not being partisan here). They're popular with airlines because they're well-proven. Don't you think that the Sonic Cruiser would have introduced some new tech., and created a middle ground between Concorde and conventional airliners?

Daquan13
Apr 18, 2006, 9:28 PM
Yes I do, but if the airlines won't buy it, then Boeing won't build it.

wolfie
Apr 18, 2006, 10:01 PM
I guess that sometimes you need to take a leap of faith- as with Concorde, and the A380. Sometimes it will pay off, sometimes it won't- but it can move the state of the art on, which is one of the things technology should always seek to do. At the moment, technology seems to be moving v. slowly- civil aircraft aren't getting any faster or higher-flying, they're just getting slightly bigger, or slightly more economical, or slightly longer range. But where are the innovators?

The Chemist
Apr 18, 2006, 10:26 PM
Unfortunately the airline business doesn't seem to be particularly open to innovation. Airliners have had the same basic shape for over half a century, but I guess it's the old adage - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Airports are designed to accomodate planes of a certain form factor, and it would cost them a great deal to accomodate a new design form factor.

Realistically, it'll take a great advance in technology - probably fuel efficient, quiet supersonic travel - before we see today's style jet airliners phased out entirely. They're efficient, they move large numbers of people, and they are fast enough to get from anywhere in the world to anywhere else in the world within 20 hours or so - that's good enough for the airlines.

sciguy0504
Apr 18, 2006, 10:33 PM
The Sonic Cruiser, just like the Concorde in its final years, did not work because of fuel prices. A plane has to make money for its owners or else it will not be purchased. I would have loved to see the Sonic Cruiser cruising the world's skies. A shame, really...

Daquan13
Apr 18, 2006, 10:49 PM
Not only was the Concorde an eventual gas guzzler.

That devestating catastrophic crash it had suffered in France in '00 had also put it out of a job, nailing its coffin shut and sending the plane out to pasture. The plane was also too expensive when it came to booking reservations to fly in it.

twoNeurons
Apr 18, 2006, 10:51 PM
If a major design innovation fails (like the SST might have if it wasn't accepted by airlines and airports) then it puts a MAJOR strain on an already strained enterprise.

Basically, to take risk on innovations on this level, you need the backing of major governments.

wolfie
Apr 18, 2006, 10:53 PM
Airliners have had the same basic shape for over half a century, but I guess it's the old adage - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
You're right, if the commercial stakes are high, then the climate isn't really conducive to experimentation. Although saying that... if the Comet was the starting point for modern airliners, then most of the experiments were carried out in the decade following its launch- usually things like engine location and growing the fuselage diameter. We tried wing roots (Comet), underslung wing pods (B707), tail pods (VC10), and a mixture of the above (DC10). But all had low-mounted wings with a sweepback of about 30 degrees, and a conventional tail, until the BAe 146 came along. Since then, we've been a bit too chicken to try anything radical.

At least the exec. planemakers tried something else- like the Piaggio Avanti and the Beech Starship- with canards and pusher engines, and all-composite construction.

Realistically, it'll take a great advance in technology - probably fuel efficient, quiet supersonic travel - before we see today's style jet airliners phased out entirely.
I guess the hope with Concorde (which of course had government funding on a major scale) was that it would create its own market... folk were prepared to pay a premium, but politics got in the way. Bound to come back to SST's at some point, though- to subscribe to human nature is to always want to go faster. Faster! faster! :tup:

Look at the Blue Riband with ocean liners- the famous days of the Queens were also their swansong, because we already felt the need to go faster, and we associated speed with being modern. The white heat of technology and all that.

The Chemist
Apr 19, 2006, 1:13 AM
^Yes, but in those days gasoline didn't cost over $3 a gallon, and it wasn't the proles who were paying most of the way :D The buzzword for today is efficiency, not speed, and the two are almost always mutually exclusive.

Daquan13
Apr 19, 2006, 4:08 AM
Also, add to that the fact that the Concorde eventually became a fuel / energy waster because there was no real signifigance in fuel / energy savings. It didn't really have much of any fuel left in its tanks because most of it was eaten up over the Atlantic. In addtition to that, the entire cabin was first class, meaning that you were raped for yout icket no matter where you sat on the plane. Mainly, the craft catered only to the elite high-society filthy-rich privaliged few who could afford it. Singer Diana Ross and other famous people were high-flying frequent flying customers on the plane.

Over the years it becme apparent that the only thing the plane had going for itself was its amazing record speed and altitude (1,300 mph at 61,000 ft.). The Sonic Cruiser was going have the same size fuselage width as the 767 and fly at about half that speed - using ony two engines and cruise slightly higher than the cruising altitude of the 747 at 50,000 ft.

The airlines just didn't think it would be a hit. Add to that 09-11, which pretty much killed it as well. It had caused Boeing to revert back to its traditionally known conventional winged 2-engine design, much like the style of the 737, 757, 767 and 777.

wolfie
Apr 19, 2006, 8:07 AM
Also, add to that the fact that the Concorde eventually became a fuel / energy waster because there was no real signifigance in fuel / energy savings.
Agreed- the fact it burnt more fuel is a given, since you can't fly a given payload any faster without using more fuel (unless you have miracle aerodynamics, but even then they only save fuel in the cruise, rather than in climbing to height)- but remember, it was designed pre-1970's oil crisis, far less prior to the Iraq debacle.

Over the years it becme apparent that the only thing the plane had going for itself was its amazing record speed and altitude (1,300 mph at 61,000 ft.).
Not just the only thing... Concorde sits well with what I was saying before about technology, since it introduced lots of innovations- fly-by-wire, FADEC engine controls, the ogee delta (you can read about the rest in books ;) ), but more importantly it gave us huge amounts of experience and data on Mach 2+ flight, since it flew more supersonic hours than the combined fleets of all the Western air forces.

It's also fascinating that Concorde was almost impossible to intercept-
http://www.lightning.org.uk/archive/0410.php

But it is just a pity that everyone couldn't get the chance to fly on it- although I think in the 90's it was possible to take half-hour joyrides out over the Atlantic in Concorde, without having to spring for £4000 or whatever it cost to join the "elite" and buy a return ticket. Not that you would necessarily want to sit beside Diana Ross/ Sean Connery/ Tom Cruise (delete as appropriate).

Daquan13
Apr 19, 2006, 12:40 PM
Yes, it WAS designed pre-1970's, and it WAS well before the energy crisis. Fuel and energy back then was considered practically dirt-cheap and people lived in a virtually care-free world. The first plane flew around '69, I believe, after the first 747. But not before its Russian rival - the Soviet Tupolev TU-144, which flew for the first time in December, 1968. It was the only other SST ever made. But it WAS the Concorde which quickly became the more popular of the two. And Airbus's first jetliner, the A-300 was in production.

Many years before the Nixon debacle, the crisis in Iran, Dessert Storm, 09-11, the War in Iraq and Hurricane Katrina. The plane's interior kept being updated and revamped as time passed, the craft's mechanical system was updated somewhat to be kept in step with later designs and modifications deemed necessary.

In fact, it was Nixon himself who had stopped further development and research on the SST in 1971. McDonnell Douglas and Boeing were about to get into the field when word came down from Nixon that further development on the craft was stopped. Boeing's version of the SST at the time, was going to be the Model 2707. MD was scoring big hits with the DC-10. And Locheed Martin's L-1011 was coming along handsomely.

And yes, I forgot about Sean Connery as having flown on the plane as well. Don't remember if Tom Cruise did at all.

Around '78 or '79, the Concorde had encountered a near-fatal incident quite similar to the one that occured in France. That one took place in Washington, DC at Dulles Int'l Airport on take off. It was the skill and instincts of the pilots that paid off. The plane managed to avoid a catastrophy and made good on it then spotless safety record.

sciguy0504
Apr 19, 2006, 3:38 PM
I walked through the Concorde when I visited NYC (one is on display) and it was nothing special. Very cramped and plain. Of course, it had speed going for it but I would rather spend the extra 3 hours with $X,XXX in my pocket.

wolfie
Apr 19, 2006, 5:50 PM
In terms of the tech. jargon folk often use, Concorde was powered by a "scalable" engine, the Olympus. It started off with less than 10 000 lb thrust in the Fifties, but by the Seventies it produced almost 40 000 lb. The ability to develop an engine that much is unprecedented today- and it was the first two-stage turbojet in the world, too.

Fuel and energy back then was considered practically dirt-cheap

I guess that renewable and clean power is available to use with gas turbines if we want it to be- they'll burn either high grade (Avgas) or low grade (Avtur or Avcat) as well as methanol, ethanol, biofuels, etc etc. So the next Oil Crisis needn't be the end of jets, and fuel economy isn't the only driving factor, if we can distill fuel cheaply from crops like sugar beet or sugar cane. Just a thought.

I walked through the Concorde when I visited NYC (one is on display) and it was nothing special.

Well, I guess everyone has their own reaction, but if you're an aircraft fan, you have an instinctive feel for when a plane is "right". I'll always remember one of the Concordes (I think it was Alpha Delta??) coming in with a load of golfers to the Open Championship a few years ago. When it set off on its take-off run, the captain opened up to full reheat, you saw the irises dilate at the end of each jet pipe, and the effect was indescribable- it accelerated like a rocket. The sound was just fantastic, it tugged at the heart strings. Mind you, I was about 12 at the time, so that much easier to impress than nowadays!

The Tupolev TU-144 flew first, but it appeared to need a bit more development work, so it went into service later, and was retired earlier.

Other thing I meant to say was that Concorde was operating profitably in the Nineties- and in fact when BA decided to retire its fleet, Richard Branson (Virgin Atlantic) offered to buy the lot. He was astute enough to realise that there will always be a small market of people who want to pay a premium- and that the halo effect from that will help all your other businesses.

And that's really the point, that aircraft makers need a "flagship" which they can hold up as the epitome of what they do- Boeing's 747, Lockheed's Tristar, de Havilland's Comet, BAC's Concorde- each of them broke new ground. Whether it's through technological innovation, or size, or speed, or whatever, it differentiates them. I guess that Airbus and Boeing look alike now, since they each have a competitor product for each model in their rival's range. Not smart marketing.

sciguy0504
Apr 19, 2006, 6:22 PM
Well, I guess everyone has their own reaction, but if you're an aircraft fan, you have an instinctive feel for when a plane is "right". I'll always remember one of the Concordes (I think it was Alpha Delta??) coming in with a load of golfers to the Open Championship a few years ago. When it set off on its take-off run, the captain opened up to full reheat, you saw the irises dilate at the end of each jet pipe, and the effect was indescribable- it accelerated like a rocket. The sound was just fantastic, it tugged at the heart strings. Mind you, I was about 12 at the time, so that much easier to impress than nowadays!

No doubt the performance of the Concorde was amazing, I would have liked to have seen it in person, but the interior was what I was talking about. It was not worth $6,000 or however much per ticket.